But not likely given his salary. Other teams would would have interest if released.
I fully understand La Conforas track record lol just wanted to pass on. Also i think a poster of BBI could speculate that if the giants had a trade partner, they’d rather do that than cut Zeitler out right.
Quote:
The idea of Hernandez and Lemieux is scary.
Maybe they can extend him a year and split his current salary guaranteed this year and next year.
The idea of them at OG is not scary for the running game. The passing game is another story. But, perhaps with better guys alongside them, they both improve.
I’ve seen it speculated here that if we part ways with KZ, Gates could slide over from Center to OG and that a vet OC could take his spot. Something also to keep an eye out for.
Also, some of you have not listened to DG and are clearly sleeping on Pio. ;-)
I've been saying that a blood bath is coming for weeks, and I don't need an anonymous GM to tell me that. The cap situation around the leagues is all you need to know.
There is going to be a glut of aging but still viable vets that are going to be released to get teams down under the cap. These types of vets, including Zeitler are not in a a good negotiating position. High supply, low demand. They are not going to get anything close to their current contracts. I've said this before and I will say it again, I seriously doubt Zeitler is going to see more than 6M this year.
If the Giants need a veteran guard of similar quality, there will several available on the market at that price or lower.
Re: bw's comment about putting resources toward the offense. I tend to agree bw. Scoring under 20ppg is absurd in today's NFL. Its a shock they won 6 games. I would look to pick up as a priority (premium draft or cheap vet FA on 1 year deals) 2 or 3 more OL, a corner who can start, also as priority but lesser so a TE and WR. I'd like to see resign one of LW or DT (I doubt they can keep both), but this is not the year to break the bank for either.
Lol, exactly. They’ll probably sign him to an 11 year extension tomorrow.
And last year's OFA OL Kyle Murphy could most likely play guard, too.
So it's not like they haven't stockpiled Guards so they can part ways with Zeitler if they need to do so.
There’s no reason to cut or extend Zeitler now. They should wait out 1) how things evolve with Williams 2) if they can land a high talent interior lineman in UFA.
It’s quite cut throat, but if the Giants hold tight and wait for some money to dry up in the market, they’ll have more leverage for Zeitler to take a pay cut.
Our last four drafts have led off with an offensive player in the first round. They are all still on the roster: Engram, Barkley, Jones, Thomas. Those four guys have to be the pillars of the offense; they have to carry it and make the players around them better. The coaches have to scheme ways to maximize the talents they were drafted for. It's time to see the ROI on that side of the ball.
There’s no reason to cut or extend Zeitler now. They should wait out 1) how things evolve with Williams 2) if they can land a high talent interior lineman in UFA.
It’s quite cut throat, but if the Giants hold tight and wait for some money to dry up in the market, they’ll have more leverage for Zeitler to take a pay cut.
Agreed the Giant's should wait as long as possible. He might have make room for the rookie cap though.
Our last four drafts have led off with an offensive player in the first round. They are all still on the roster: Engram, Barkley, Jones, Thomas. Those four guys have to be the pillars of the offense; they have to carry it and make the players around them better. The coaches have to scheme ways to maximize the talents they were drafted for. It's time to see the ROI on that side of the ball.
For this reason I want Surtain or Farley at 11. I think we could build a lights out secondary with a good CB opposite Bradberry.
Bradberry
Surtain/Farley
Holmes
Ryan
Peppers
McKinney
We kicked the can down the road with OBJ's contract as well. It's two or three fold now and get's complex with what we gave up in OBJ/Vernon "contracts" and what was gained in Z and Pepper's + a 17th and 95th.
2019
Gone:
OBJ - $$$ contract, good riddance, dodged a bullet here
Vernon - $$$ FA - above avg player, solid starter, I think we dodged a bullet here also
Gained:
Zeitler - +avg player now, but a starter for some teams (like ours)....and we got his contract as well, bit the bullet on this one
Peppers - ++cheapish contract (I think), seems pretty good at times. Not a starter but contributes in other ways
Pick #17 - ++Lawrence - great prospect and on the cheap
Pick #95 - ++Ximines - verdict still out (health?) but is on the cheap, great prospect
2019 Draft:
Pick #6 - +Jones, verdict still out
#30 - Baker, Bust, wasted pick - WHICH IS COSTLY
#108 - Love, meh, but he was 108 overall
#143 - ++Connelly, seams solid in some situations, lost in others. Verdict still out.
We unloaded a couple of huge(potential) contracts and got some great return in the scope of things. I'm ok with keeping Zeitler. We'll need him this year if not for depth.
Solder on the other hand....He's got to go or take a huge pay cut, then he'll just add depth.
If we don't trade him then I think he is being cut. We need money to sign some guys- LW, maybe DT and a WR. I think the draft is going to be OL, TE and LB.
Could be, but I also think the long term effects of Covid on ones breathing and endurance has something to do with it too.
I'd keep Zeitler, IF he agreed to a two year 8 Million extension . Make 10.5 Million of this year's 12 million a signing bonus. Guaranty that and his 1.5 this year. So he ends up with a three year $20 Million deal with $12 Million guaranteed which is about his market and we get $7 Million in cap relief this year.
More likely he is cut and signs a 1 year prove it deal with some offensively challenged franchise.
Why? Age? 31/32 y/o is really not old for a guard, so I am dismissing that. Has it been his center and RT in 2019(plus shitty coaching) and the RT in 2020, plus Gates early play?
$14.5 mill is too much for what he does, I agree. But he is easily the best guard on the team.
Ok what to do. I think they keep him for now. Watch the FA list and look for a good vet guard that was released in a cap move and try to sign one for a deal worth a lot less than Zeitler's $12 mill 2021 salary.
I think Lemieux has a chance to develop and have no idea what is happening with Hernandez. Lemieux has good feet, so there is no reason he should be getting beat on stunts - he is quick enough to make the switch. He should be significantly stronger next season.
Sy'56 is right, the line is still an issue that needs to be resolved before camp. Andrews is LT, I think Lemieux will be LG, Gates is C, ?? at RG and ?Peart? is RT. Someone suggested picking up a vet OC in FA and moving Gates to RG. Gates has Rich Seubert written all over him, so I can see that as a viable move.
1. Does anyone else in the league put more value on him then they do? Could they get a pick back instead of just cutting him.
2. It will show if anyone else would pay him 12 million a year. When nobody would it makes him taking a pay cut or reduced $ extension more rwalistix in his eyes since the whole NFL juat told him he isnt getting that kind of money. Kind of like he gets to test FA before accepting a pay cut.
Why? Age? 31/32 y/o is really not old for a guard, so I am dismissing that. Has it been his center and RT in 2019(plus shitty coaching) and the RT in 2020, plus Gates early play?
$14.5 mill is too much for what he does, I agree. But he is easily the best guard on the team.
Ok what to do. I think they keep him for now. Watch the FA list and look for a good vet guard that was released in a cap move and try to sign one for a deal worth a lot less than Zeitler's $12 mill 2021 salary.
I think Lemieux has a chance to develop and have no idea what is happening with Hernandez. Lemieux has good feet, so there is no reason he should be getting beat on stunts - he is quick enough to make the switch. He should be significantly stronger next season.
Sy'56 is right, the line is still an issue that needs to be resolved before camp. Andrews is LT, I think Lemieux will be LG, Gates is C, ?? at RG and ?Peart? is RT. Someone suggested picking up a vet OC in FA and moving Gates to RG. Gates has Rich Seubert written all over him, so I can see that as a viable move.
Dont like moving Gates as Plan A. Would prefer to sign a replacement RG (cutting Hernandez and zeiteler if needed). Then look to the draft for G/C that can push Lemuix, Gates and our new RG.
1. Does anyone else in the league put more value on him then they do? Could they get a pick back instead of just cutting him.
2. It will show if anyone else would pay him 12 million a year. When nobody would it makes him taking a pay cut or reduced $ extension more rwalistix in his eyes since the whole NFL juat told him he isnt getting that kind of money. Kind of like he gets to test FA before accepting a pay cut.
We all know Zeitler is not getting $12 mill per from any team in the NFL if he was let go...
Hernandez was being saved from "were and tear" last season?
Dont like moving Gates as Plan A. Would prefer to sign a replacement RG (cutting Hernandez and zeiteler if needed). Then look to the draft for G/C that can push Lemuix, Gates and our new RG.
Of course that would be plan A to replace Zeitler with a cheaper FA vet, but Gates would be a hell of a RG.(I like him at center - nasty boy).
I guess it is a slow news week at BBI
trying to trade him (or pretending to) makes perfect sense, IF they're trying to muscle a pay cut out of him. I don't think he gets close to 14 mil guaranteed on the open market, so simply restructuring his current salary into bonus should not be the approach to take.
If KZ is getting released because they are targeting some other type of strategic OL move in free agency or early in the Draft then I could give his some leeway.
But if this is just a "hey, we screwed up moment and KZ is kind of expensive so we will just allocate his money to an immediate need and figure it out later" type of moment then its really a ridiculous side-show in that front office...
if hernandez was kept on the bench for reasons other than his play i reckon it was due to covid, not to save him wear and tear. one would presume they'd want to get him reps if their plan is to move him from LG to RG. but who knows. thomas's improved play later in the season correlated with lemieux taking over for hernandez.
Hernandez is an OK guard certainly not an All Pro but a better all around guard than Lemieux.
Do the Giants have a need at OG in the draft? A big YES.
Look the Giants can manipulate Zeitler's cap hit for 2021. Time for Abrams to do his thing.
As far as the OL in free agency I would try to sign Daryl Williams RT from the Bills to a fair contract.
I really like the Notre Dame OG Banks in the draft.
Still alot of work to do on the OL.
I may be in the minority but I would keep Zeitler in 2021 at a reduced cap hit.
The ultimate game manager, the G.O.A.T. Just won the Super Bowl again.
He's most likely to be cut. Zeitler cut, Hernandez takes his place on that side. Solder as well.
He's most likely to be cut. Zeitler cut, Hernandez takes his place on that side. Solder as well.
If you want to cut Zeitler to save the money that is OK, but don't tell us Hernandez is the replacement. He has stunk for 2 years running. You put Hernandez in at RG and this line takes a huge step back and puts Jones's is a bad situation. How is that progress? To cut Zeitler the goal is to come up with a cheaper and just as good if not better replacement. You can't go backwards.
Keeping high priced veterans that arent playing at the level of their salary does nothing to help the roster.
Quote:
Who for sure can we say is a bonafide above average O lineman when zeitler gets cut ? Nick Gates? I see all the stats about how Jones gets pressured in less than 3 seconds. Making the OL worse should help that. This roster is a mess
Keeping high priced veterans that arent playing at the level of their salary does nothing to help the roster.
Nor does signing veterans to unreasonable contracts that result in the same effect. But as you suggest the Giants know more about the NFL than anybody in this thread so that is already a given.
It's not like they have a replacement around.
As I am saying this, I also feel they should cut ties
with Solder. I would make both Tate & Solder, post June 1st
cuts, more bang for their salary cap dollar.
Our last four drafts have led off with an offensive player in the first round. They are all still on the roster: Engram, Barkley, Jones, Thomas. Those four guys have to be the pillars of the offense; they have to carry it and make the players around them better. The coaches have to scheme ways to maximize the talents they were drafted for. It's time to see the ROI on that side of the ball.
...I just like quoting that movie.
Good post!
The Giants have a bottom 5 roster and that might be generous since their best defensive player last year probably their best player period, isn't under contract. Another top 5 defensive player last year isn't under contract and the Giants are right against the cap limit with a QB on his rookie deal.
His "thing" like almost everything else surrounding the Giants Front Office sucks.
If KZ is getting released because they are targeting some other type of strategic OL move in free agency or early in the Draft then I could give his some leeway.
But if this is just a "hey, we screwed up moment and KZ is kind of expensive so we will just allocate his money to an immediate need and figure it out later" type of moment then its really a ridiculous side-show in that front office...
They shouldn't have to cut Zeitler to sign Williams, but vet players on the last year of a big free agency deal tend to find themselves extended or cut.
There's a decent glut of veteran Guards on the market already and that's before the expected blood letting which many in the league reckon will happen the moment the cap is set. Zietler's cap hit is just simply not an effective use of resources.
The Giants have a bottom 5 roster and that might be generous since their best defensive player last year probably their best player period, isn't under contract. Another top 5 defensive player last year isn't under contract and the Giants are right against the cap limit with a QB on his rookie deal.
His "thing" like almost everything else surrounding the Giants Front Office sucks.
You have to separate what a cap guy does vs a GM. The cap guy's job is retain flexibility for the team. Cap spending is essentially accounting, the GM sets the value of a contract the cap guy squeezes the value of the contract into the structure of the cap (generally most teams view the cap in a shifting 3 year window)
While the Giants front office isn't great, from where I'm sitting Abrams tends to structure the contracts sensibly with relatively easy outs after the first 2 years (he often front loads) and while the product on the field isn't great, he manages to utilise almost all the cap every year without any major dramas.
Ultimately though if the GM is spending Porsche Money on junkers that's not the cap guys fault, all the cap guy is there to do is make sure the team can make the payments and pay rent.
And for the record I don't want Abrams anywhere near the GM role.
The Giants have a bottom 5 roster and that might be generous since their best defensive player last year probably their best player period, isn't under contract. Another top 5 defensive player last year isn't under contract and the Giants are right against the cap limit with a QB on his rookie deal.
His "thing" like almost everything else surrounding the Giants Front Office sucks.
Abrahms manages the cap. And he's done well in that capacity. If you think the Giants are in poor shape in regards to the cap, you're probably yet another poster who judges cap success by how much money a team is under the cap.
Which means you probably think the more money you get back on taxes is managing your deductions better.
The Giants have a bottom 5 roster and that might be generous since their best defensive player last year probably their best player period, isn't under contract. Another top 5 defensive player last year isn't under contract and the Giants are right against the cap limit with a QB on his rookie deal.
His "thing" like almost everything else surrounding the Giants Front Office sucks.
Abrams doesn't give out the contracts he only does the numbers.
Quote:
Interesting. What is his "thing"?
The Giants have a bottom 5 roster and that might be generous since their best defensive player last year probably their best player period, isn't under contract. Another top 5 defensive player last year isn't under contract and the Giants are right against the cap limit with a QB on his rookie deal.
His "thing" like almost everything else surrounding the Giants Front Office sucks.
You have to separate what a cap guy does vs a GM. The cap guy's job is retain flexibility for the team. Cap spending is essentially accounting, the GM sets the value of a contract the cap guy squeezes the value of the contract into the structure of the cap (generally most teams view the cap in a shifting 3 year window)
While the Giants front office isn't great, from where I'm sitting Abrams tends to structure the contracts sensibly with relatively easy outs after the first 2 years (he often front loads) and while the product on the field isn't great, he manages to utilise almost all the cap every year without any major dramas.
Ultimately though if the GM is spending Porsche Money on junkers that's not the cap guys fault, all the cap guy is there to do is make sure the team can make the payments and pay rent.
And for the record I don't want Abrams anywhere near the GM role.
Lets keep it fair, the cap guy and the GM had better be on the same page before anybody is getting signed up to a deal. This isn't just two offices on different floors that meet once a week on a Zoom call.
Good save with the last sentence though!
There’s no reason to cut or extend Zeitler now. They should wait out 1) how things evolve with Williams 2) if they can land a high talent interior lineman in UFA.
It’s quite cut throat, but if the Giants hold tight and wait for some money to dry up in the market, they’ll have more leverage for Zeitler to take a pay cut.
Waiting for money to dry up also means, theoretically, that some of the players the Giants might like to use additional cap space on would be unavailable, they having been parties to the drying of the market.
I wonder if the Giants could, however, effectively disregard their rookie salary pool during the early part of free agency, and then squeeze KZ after the first (or even second) wave of signings to restore the cap room they'll need for draft picks and/or bargain FAs?
okay I get that... but stickes here are usually reserved for FACTS and deals that have actually occurred. Not a hypothesis regardless of whether it is plausible.
Cutting Zeitler will be a clean process, with clear unambiguous savings. The Giants just need to file the papers with the league on his termination, before they file new papers on any acquisition.
They can come to terms with a new player, and just cut Zeitler before they email in the new contract.
It's shitty, and they probably won't do it to Zeitler, but they can.
The front office runs more like a business than a football team. Somewhere Kevin Abrams and crew are running financial models with all the traditional performance management metrics any other company uses. Sure the Giants have different capital but certain fundamentals exist across all businesses.
With Hernandez and Lemieux appreciating and Zeitler depreciating at a heavy cost, they have likely concluded Zeitler's piece of the pie can be more efficiently used elsewhere. It has nothing to do with Tomlinson in particular and more to do with properly running a business.