So Netflix recently added 'Dances With Wolves', which won Best Picture at the 63rd Academy Awards. I watched it earlier...yeah, it's a good film no doubt, the visuals are stunning, & it's got a good-if completely unrealistic-plot. But it's not Goodfellas, which I watched last week for like the 765758th time.
I don't remember if there was a lot of debate back in '90-'91 over this, but to me this was highway robbery.
Anytime I stumble onto goodfellas, i cant turn it off
Maybe its an ode to my NY Italian self and my old man being on the periphery of guys like that
Love to watch it, never wanted anything to do with it
Enjoyed casino too. Not as much , but solid
Fact is after tax season, time to watch godfather 1&2 again!
Citizen Kane didn't win the Oscar, either.
But yea.. history has concluded that Goodfellas is greater than Dances with Wolves.
Same with Paul Newman (from the East) who won his only Oscar the one time he wasn't going show up at the ceremony.
Petty stuff, I know, but that's Hollywood.
Same with Paul Newman (from the East) who won his only Oscar the one time he wasn't going show up at the ceremony.
Petty stuff, I know, but that's Hollywood.
But tons of actors from NJ and NY have won Oscars - Nicholson, Pacino, Streep, Hathaway, DeNiro, Dreyfus, etc.
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The was/is a lot of anti-New York bias out here (don't ask me why) and Scorsese represented that ilk so it was always "stick it to the New Yorker."
Same with Paul Newman (from the East) who won his only Oscar the one time he wasn't going show up at the ceremony.
Petty stuff, I know, but that's Hollywood.
But tons of actors from NJ and NY have won Oscars - Nicholson, Pacino, Streep, Hathaway, DeNiro, Dreyfus, etc.
ey, buddy, dont get in the way of a good nonsensical argument when there’s an opportunity to feel like an aggrieved party! this is America in 2021, dont you know how this goes?
1979: Kramer vs Kramer / Apocalypse Now - Divorces exploding in America
1986: Platoon / Hannah and Her Sisters - Appreciation of Vietnam vets reaches apex
1994: Forrest Gump / Pulp Fiction OR The Shawshank Redemption - First big time and seamless use of CGI within film’s live action
Dances with Wolves had everything going for it that year that is all.
Dances with Wolves had everything going for it that year that is all.
The Academy was not going to award another movie about Italian mobsters- they did that with the Godfather- when they had a movie sympathetic to Native Americans handed to them on silver platter.
You broke that jaw?
You are now my favorite poster on BBI.
Winners:
The Artist (has anyone watched that movie since Oscar night?)
Driving Miss Daisy
Crash
Forrest Gump
Dances With Wolves
Shakespeare in Love
Didn't Win:
Field of Dreams
Brokeback Mountain
Pulp Fiction
The Shawshank Redemption
Saving Private Ryan
Goodfellas
I don't know how many of you have spent a lot of time talking to Academy members, or to movie people more broadly, but I have, and the thing most people miss is: This is a snapshot of how a certain group of movie people feel on a particular date, and that group has some identifiable quirks.
They're mostly older, because once your'e in, you're in, and can keep voting for years and years. Because of that, their tastes tend to be small-c conservative. They are reluctant to recognize cutting-edge stuff, genre films or stuff that's edgy. (Like edgier Scorsese movies.) Not all of them watch all the nominated films (not required in most categories); they ask their similarly older, conservative friends.
There is absolutely a "clubby" element to the selections, especially in crafts categories. Some sound guys have racked up 15 or more nominations. The same sound guys tend to be nominated over and over again. Almost never anyone from Europe or Asia, ever. Why? Because the sound branch is mostly L.A. based men (women in sound are rare and quite open about facing sexism) who tend to nominate each other. There is some of that in other categories as well.
Also remember that many voters have actually worked with the people who are up for awards, and there are people they absolutely hate and will never vote for. (I tried to explain that to a cousin from Akron once. She said "That's not fair!" I said, "Picture someone you used to work with who made your life miserable, whom you despised every minute with." Ok, she said. "Now imagine you can vote to give that person one of the most prestigious, famous awards on the planet. Would you?" "NO WAY!" she said. I said "Well, that's how it works in the Academy.") Bill Murray apparently made a lot of enemies when he was a big star and there are people who haven't forgiven him. It matters now when he's up for awards.
And then there's acting. An actor buddy of mine observes: "Actors like voting for performances that make acting look hard." This is true. Once you're aware of it, you'll never stop noticing it.
And another buddy of mine observes: "It's not best, it's most. Most Sound. Most Acting. Most Directing." Also true.
Plus they often can't see what's in front of their nose. Alan Rickman wasn't nominated for his role in "Die Hard." He delivered one of the great movie villains of all time. It's a spectacular performance. But Rickman was new to movies, they didn't know him, and "Die Hard" wasn't the Academy's idea of an Oscar movie.
The Academy has expanded to a lot of younger, more diverse, more international members in the last few years. I think has already led to more interesting choices. But the Academy isn't the general public, and they don't have the regular public's taste. The don't see movies the same way civilians do. They're never going to align with public tastes -- even when the public is right.
Although “Dances with Wolves” isn’t close to my favorite movie of his, it was probably the peak of Costner’s career as an American icon. He also directed that movie and won “Best Director” at the Academy Awards that year.
Personally, I don’t like the movie. “Goodfellas” is a classic and most of us consider it a better movie, it’s just one of those things.
Some of you guys are going to b.u.m.m.e.d. to learn Scorsese is a big time New York liberal and makes movies with Jews, and Italians in unions, and all kinds of lefty stuff.
Nope. Not surprising at all.
Are you going to tell us next DeNiro isn't really like the tough guy he plays in every movie?
https://www.filmsite.org/afi10toptennoms10.html - ( New Window )
Winners:
The Artist (has anyone watched that movie since Oscar night?)
Driving Miss Daisy
Crash
Forrest Gump
Dances With Wolves
Shakespeare in Love
Didn't Win:
Field of Dreams
Brokeback Mountain
Pulp Fiction
The Shawshank Redemption
Saving Private Ryan
Goodfellas
I don't know how many of you have spent a lot of time talking to Academy members, or to movie people more broadly, but I have, and the thing most people miss is: This is a snapshot of how a certain group of movie people feel on a particular date, and that group has some identifiable quirks.
They're mostly older, because once your'e in, you're in, and can keep voting for years and years. Because of that, their tastes tend to be small-c conservative. They are reluctant to recognize cutting-edge stuff, genre films or stuff that's edgy. (Like edgier Scorsese movies.) Not all of them watch all the nominated films (not required in most categories); they ask their similarly older, conservative friends.
There is absolutely a "clubby" element to the selections, especially in crafts categories. Some sound guys have racked up 15 or more nominations. The same sound guys tend to be nominated over and over again. Almost never anyone from Europe or Asia, ever. Why? Because the sound branch is mostly L.A. based men (women in sound are rare and quite open about facing sexism) who tend to nominate each other. There is some of that in other categories as well.
Also remember that many voters have actually worked with the people who are up for awards, and there are people they absolutely hate and will never vote for. (I tried to explain that to a cousin from Akron once. She said "That's not fair!" I said, "Picture someone you used to work with who made your life miserable, whom you despised every minute with." Ok, she said. "Now imagine you can vote to give that person one of the most prestigious, famous awards on the planet. Would you?" "NO WAY!" she said. I said "Well, that's how it works in the Academy.") Bill Murray apparently made a lot of enemies when he was a big star and there are people who haven't forgiven him. It matters now when he's up for awards.
And then there's acting. An actor buddy of mine observes: "Actors like voting for performances that make acting look hard." This is true. Once you're aware of it, you'll never stop noticing it.
And another buddy of mine observes: "It's not best, it's most. Most Sound. Most Acting. Most Directing." Also true.
Plus they often can't see what's in front of their nose. Alan Rickman wasn't nominated for his role in "Die Hard." He delivered one of the great movie villains of all time. It's a spectacular performance. But Rickman was new to movies, they didn't know him, and "Die Hard" wasn't the Academy's idea of an Oscar movie.
The Academy has expanded to a lot of younger, more diverse, more international members in the last few years. I think has already led to more interesting choices. But the Academy isn't the general public, and they don't have the regular public's taste. The don't see movies the same way civilians do. They're never going to align with public tastes -- even when the public is right.
Good post, totally agree. Remember Tom Cruise in Born on the Fourth of July? His best acting by far. And he happened to be up against Daniel Day Lewis. I have never seen My Left Foot, but I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t watch it more than once. Born on the Fourth of July was an excellent film I have seen at least a handful of times. But no award there.
Pretty sure the version I saw was more graphic than the final release. I was a first time father with a new born infant at the time and couldn't take it.
I've seen the movie since without the visceral reaction. Turns out it's just a movie.
And I'd have to understand the criteria before agreeing it's inherently a better one than DWW.
As for Saving Private Ryan, remember that Hanks had a run of great movies - Philadelphia Story, SPP, Moonshot and Forrest Gump. All should have been or could have been "Best Movie" but they could not give him the Oscar every year.
Pulp fiction is a movie that I like better each time I see it. It is crazy in that Travolta is killed by Willis, but later walks out of the diner with Sam Jackson....
Tarantino deserves more consideration. Just a fantastic film maker, his worst movies are still no worse than “good”.
Interesting point on Epics. I’ve always weighed that into my own ranking/grading as pulling off movies of that kind of scale is impressive.
DDL is hands down the best actor I’ve ever seen. This brings in a lot of personal preference so I wouldn’t fight tooth and nail on it, but every character he plays is just taken to a whole other level. I’m not a Tom Hanks fans but take his best 3 performances head to head with DDL and I think it’s a landslide.
Check out the Boxer. It’s labeled as one of if not the most accurate movie depicting boxing. He trained 18 months with a former champion in preparation.
Rogan talks about it, 5 minute mark
The Boxer - ( New Window )
* Raging Bull not win over Kramer vs. Kramer?
* Martin Scorcese never win for Director until The Departed despite Raging Bull, Mean Streets, Taxi Driver, Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore and more
* Paul Newman not win until the piece of shit Color of Money that couldn't hold a candle to The Hustler and any of the other great movies and roles he did? Verdict was WAY better. And Hud, The Sting, Butch Cassidy, Cool Hand Luke and many others
* ditto Al Pacino until equally lame Scent of a Woman.
* Stallone not Best Actor for Rocky?
nice knowing you :-)
But I have a sentimental weakness for many posters on BBI, as you can see. They talk when they should listen...
DWW was definitely a deserving winner
* Raging Bull not win over Kramer vs. Kramer?
* Martin Scorcese never win for Director until The Departed despite Raging Bull, Mean Streets, Taxi Driver, Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore and more
* Paul Newman not win until the piece of shit Color of Money that couldn't hold a candle to The Hustler and any of the other great movies and roles he did? Verdict was WAY better. And Hud, The Sting, Butch Cassidy, Cool Hand Luke and many others
* ditto Al Pacino until equally lame Scent of a Woman.
* Stallone not Best Actor for Rocky?
Then you have Meryl Streep who is a good actress but NOT as good as her nominations and awards would suggest. It it beyond ridiculous ...
Also many of us from the NYC area likely appreciate many aspects of Goodfellas far greater then many people throughout other regions of the country.
If somehow everyone in the country could go back and see each one for the first time in a theater I’m guessing we would see a similar outcome.
Also while a terrific movie, Goodfellas isn’t better than The Godfather.
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The real reason is because of political correctness and the liberal Hollywood agenda. A gangster movie that has been done many times before (albeit not with the same skill as Goodfellas) will NEVER win out against a movie that glorifies the minority struggle against the oppressive white man. There, I said it.
You are now my favorite poster on BBI.
Hahaha.
Are you going to tell us next DeNiro isn't really like the tough guy he plays in every movie?
Another reason why I have always said that Deniro is one of the most over-rated actors in modern history.
He is playing the same guy in every movie. Same intimidating character even in Fochers movies. It does not mean we do not enjoy the movies or his roles.. but please tell me when he starts acting. Let's see his range one day if it is not too late for that.
But I have a sentimental weakness for many posters on BBI, as you can see. They talk when they should listen...
It is fair to rate Goodellas above The Godfather. I do. It is wildly original and modern. By comparison The Godfather lumbers along. It is amazingly sarcastic and dark. And very little humor in The Godfather.
Not sure what you mean by deal-making, but I don't think that is really a thing, at least not in final voting. There are thousands of Oscar voters scattered around the world, in different professions, in different stages of their life, who don't all know each other. It's not like the Hollywood Foreign Press Association, which is less than 100 people who know each other, live in the same city and talk about their choices.
If you get into really inside-baseball stuff, there is a lot of politics at the branch level, where most of the nominations get made. In the categories where an executive committee makes the decision about which films make the first cut and the short list, it makes a big difference who is on the committee that year.
Please, for your own good, go outside and get a life.
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Are you going to tell us next DeNiro isn't really like the tough guy he plays in every movie?
Another reason why I have always said that Deniro is one of the most over-rated actors in modern history.
He is playing the same guy in every movie. Same intimidating character even in Fochers movies. It does not mean we do not enjoy the movies or his roles.. but please tell me when he starts acting. Let's see his range one day if it is not too late for that.
I’ll see your point and respond with godfather 2. Deniro as young Vito is so good in this role. He’s not intimidating at all until he is. And even when he’s sort of arrived as the Don, he’s more respected than feared but the fear is there too.
Not many could have pulled that role off. Deniro not only had to model himself out of an almost impossible character but 30-40 years younger, he had to portray the progression.
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The real reason is because of political correctness and the liberal Hollywood agenda. A gangster movie that has been done many times before (albeit not with the same skill as Goodfellas) will NEVER win out against a movie that glorifies the minority struggle against the oppressive white man. There, I said it.
Please, for your own good, go outside and get a life.
Scorsese would have been far better off making a film glorifying a minority outsider being brought into the inner circle of a culture he didn’t fully belong. A culture full of oppressive white men.
He could have called this film Goodfellas ... wait ...