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How do we have DJ and SB on rookie deals with no cap room?

MtDizzle : 3/5/2021 7:44 pm
Are we eating an absurd amount of dead money or something I’m not aware of?
Covid  
US1 Giants : 3/5/2021 7:46 pm : link
.
So I think some people don't understand why  
NoGainDayne : 3/5/2021 7:50 pm : link
Saquon Barkley at #2 presented such positional value challenges. Contracts are paid out due to draft position alone instead of as they usually are which takes in the positional value.

I'm spitballing because I don't remember the actual numbers but I think Saquon came into the league as the 4th or 5th highest paid RB and Sam Darnold was the ~32nd highest paid QB.

It's what makes picking an RB #2 so curious, it is the least durable position with the shortest life expectancy and one of the highest relative costs.

So DJ is the only cheap one Saquon, not so much...
Bad cap management  
.McL. : 3/5/2021 7:53 pm : link
Anybody on here that criticized the Giant's cap management is berated by being told the cap doesn't matter, or that being close to the max on the cap is always a good thing.
It seems the Giants' management buys into that philosophy, and unfortunately it's bad philosophy.

The cap most certainly matters.

Being close to the max on the cap is only good once the regular season begins and you are a team in the hunt for a SB, otherwise you should be managing the cap to give yourself room to find better players. Even as the year progresses. There are always a few players that shake free. If you have leftover cap, then you can roll it into the next season, which is not a bad thing. Keep rolling it until you are in contention for a a title. Then eat it to maximize your chance to achieve the title.
How come people don't understand the cap?  
ZogZerg : 3/5/2021 7:54 pm : link
.
That's what's tough to swallow  
Go Terps : 3/5/2021 7:54 pm : link
We're closer to the end of a window than the beginning.

And what do we have to show for it?
We don’t have a lot of good players  
UConn4523 : 3/5/2021 7:59 pm : link
if we did the available cap or lack thereof wouldn’t be an issue.

You can do this exercise with any bad team that isn’t flush with cap room.
RE: Covid  
US1 Giants : 3/5/2021 8:00 pm : link
In comment 15167957 US1 Giants said:
Quote:
.


The league cap number when down because of Covid and Solder's contract moved to 2021 because he oped out of 2020.
...  
christian : 3/5/2021 8:01 pm : link
- The Giants have 6 players on first round contracts (Thomas, Jones, Lawrence, Barkley, Engram, Peppers), and 2M in dead from another (Baker)

- They have 2 of the 15 biggest cap hits at OL in the league (Zeitler and Solder)

- A top 5 paid corner (Bradberry)

- A top 10 paid ILB (Martinez)

The Giants are paying a lot of players decent money.
Zeitler and Solder  
broadbandz : 3/5/2021 8:04 pm : link
will be cut and the giants will have plenty of money and even more next yr. I mean seriously look into it for 5 minutes before making a thread. The giants have no cap room? not even close to reality.
RE: How come people don't understand the cap?  
Milton : 3/5/2021 8:10 pm : link
In comment 15167962 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
.
+1

It's amazing we're are still getting threads about this no matter how many times it's been explained that the Giants have plenty of cap room. In fact, the Giants have enough cap room to tag Williams at $19.4M and not be handicapped because of it in free agency!
I know everyone thinks I hate Jones (I don't)  
Go Terps : 3/5/2021 8:20 pm : link
But this is why the Giants should (but won't) be open to moving Jones at the draft and drafting a quarterback. Doing that changes the timeline in the most crucial possible way.

That's been part of the problem under Gettleman: a total lack of understanding of or appreciation for the importance of timing.
The Giants still need to create it  
Chip : 3/5/2021 8:23 pm : link
Some of which will need to be created by backloading contracts like Bradberry and Martinez and you can create a little bit more with an extension. My question is whether ownership will do it. This is up to the owners not the GM
Well...cap although annual....is really a mumulti-year roster provess  
George from PA : 3/5/2021 8:26 pm : link
Last years FAs....were front loaded.....rarely ever done. Almost all FA signing are back-loaded....

Corvid also cause a pull back on cap..vs the anticipated jump.

Although on paper the Giants do not have cap space, they can create a ton of cap space.....but right now, they are choosing not to....so
Next few years, the Giants will be flushed....with cap.
5 words  
aGiantGuy : 3/5/2021 8:38 pm : link
Solder, OBJ, JPP, Eli, OV
The Giants having no cap room is a farce.  
Vin_Cuccs : 3/5/2021 8:42 pm : link
Real quick rundown:

Candidates for cuts:
Zeitler=$12
Tate=$6.1
Solder=$10
Dixon=$2.65
Toilolo=$2.95
Mayo=$2.3
Core=$2

Total of~$38

Extend/restructure Bradberry, Martinez, Peppers

Total of~$10

Trading Engram could save $6

Total~$54 million without rollover.

They have space if they want it.
RE: The Giants having no cap room is a farce.  
Big Blue '56 : 3/5/2021 8:44 pm : link
In comment 15167998 Vin_Cuccs said:
[quote] Real quick rundown:

Candidates for cuts:
Zeitler=$12
Tate=$6.1
Solder=$10
Dixon=$2.65
Toilolo=$2.95
Mayo=$2.3
Core=$2

Total of~$38

Extend/restructure Bradberry, Martinez, Peppers

Total of~$10

Trading Engram could save $6

Total~$54 million without rollover.

They have space if they want it. [/quote

Agreed, but you’re wasting your time. Cap-wise, I don’t bother anymore..
RE: The Giants having no cap room is a farce.  
Big Blue '56 : 3/5/2021 8:44 pm : link
In comment 15167998 Vin_Cuccs said:
Quote:
Real quick rundown:

Candidates for cuts:
Zeitler=$12
Tate=$6.1
Solder=$10
Dixon=$2.65
Toilolo=$2.95
Mayo=$2.3
Core=$2

Total of~$38

Extend/restructure Bradberry, Martinez, Peppers

Total of~$10

Trading Engram could save $6

Total~$54 million without rollover.

They have space if they want it.


Agreed, but you’re wasting your time. Cap-wise, I don’t bother anymore..
RE: Well...cap although annual....is really a mumulti-year roster provess  
GiantsRage2007 : 3/5/2021 8:50 pm : link
In comment 15167986 George from PA said:
Quote:
Last years FAs....were front loaded.....rarely ever done. Almost all FA signing are back-loaded....

Corvid also cause a pull back on cap..vs the anticipated jump.

Although on paper the Giants do not have cap space, they can create a ton of cap space.....but right now, they are choosing not to....so
Next few years, the Giants will be flushed....with cap.



Actually they weren't. Dan Duggan discussed this in his latest article on the Athletic.

"Initially, Bradberry’s three-year, $43.5 million contract didn’t have a signing bonus. Instead, he was due a $12 million roster bonus in 2020. That would have resulted in a $16 million cap hit in 2020, followed by $14 million in 2021 and $13.5 million in 2022.

But before the contract was finalized, the bonus structure was tweaked. The Giants instead gave Bradberry a $3 million 2020 roster bonus and a $9 million signing bonus. Roster bonuses count fully against the cap in the year that they’re earned, while signing bonuses are amortized over the life of the contract.

The change made no difference to Bradberry: He was due $12 million within days of signing the contract under either structure. But the change lowered his cap hit for 2020 to $10 million, while bumping it up to $17 million in 2021 and $16.5 million in 2022.

Similarly, Martinez’s three-year, $30.75 million contract initially included a $10 million roster bonus in 2020 and no signing bonus. That structure resulted in cap hits of $14 million in 2020, $8.3 million in 2021 and $8.5 million in 2022. But the Giants switched to a $4 million roster bonus in 2020 to go with a $6 million signing bonus. As a result, his 2020 cap hit dropped to $10 million before jumping to $10.3 million in 2021 and $10.5 million in 2022."

RE: RE: Covid  
'25GiantsPride : 3/5/2021 8:55 pm : link
In comment 15167968 US1 Giants said:
Quote:
In comment 15167957 US1 Giants said:


Quote:


Nope, Solder's contract is the only one besides Beal's effected by Covid. One player isn't why the Giant's aren't in great shape cap wise. Poor allocation of resources is. Let's hope the arrow is pointing up.



The league cap number when down because of Covid and Solder's contract moved to 2021 because he oped out of 2020.
RE: I know everyone thinks I hate Jones (I don't)  
section125 : 3/5/2021 8:58 pm : link
In comment 15167983 Go Terps said:
Quote:
But this is why the Giants should (but won't) be open to moving Jones at the draft and drafting a quarterback. Doing that changes the timeline in the most crucial possible way.

That's been part of the problem under Gettleman: a total lack of understanding of or appreciation for the importance of timing.


It has already been said (I think by Sy'56 or another scout) that other than Trevor Lawrence, there are NO QBs in that draft that rate higher than Jones, not even Zack Wilson. But what would they know.... So, just who are you picking at 11 (probably QB #5), Trask?

You don't hate Jones, but not a thread goes by that you don't call him one of the worst QBs in the NFL. So I will continue with my tirade - nobody knows what the Giants have in Jones. I am not saying he is THE guy, but I am also not saying he isn't the guy, either and therefore I am willing to see what he can do this year because this team is going nowhere as currently constructed. Once again, whatever QB is left at #11 is likely not to be any better than Jones and almost definitely far worse.
Ranaan had the guy from Overthecap on his podcast yesterday  
Go Terps : 3/5/2021 8:59 pm : link
That guy stated the Giants are about middle of the pack in cap space.

That's fine. The problem is they are at the bottom of the league in roster quality.

christian suggested there's a chance Gettleman announces his retirement at the upcoming press conference. I don't believe in the power of prayer, but I'll be praying christian is right.
RE: The Giants having no cap room is a farce.  
BH28 : 3/5/2021 9:08 pm : link
In comment 15167998 Vin_Cuccs said:
Quote:
Real quick rundown:

Candidates for cuts:
Zeitler=$12
Tate=$6.1
Solder=$10
Dixon=$2.65
Toilolo=$2.95
Mayo=$2.3
Core=$2

Total of~$38

Extend/restructure Bradberry, Martinez, Peppers

Total of~$10

Trading Engram could save $6

Total~$54 million without rollover.

They have space if they want it.


That's great and all but signing replacements for Zeitler and Solder will cost about $10 million total of that space unless we want to go into next year with a worse line or no depth.

We can cut everyone in the world but if we don't have better people replacing them, we're getting worse not better. That's the biggest issue with cutting these guys, there aren't ready made replacements other than pray the young guys step up or get better under a new line coach.
RE: Ranaan had the guy from Overthecap on his podcast yesterday  
eric2425ny : 3/5/2021 9:10 pm : link
In comment 15168007 Go Terps said:
Quote:
That guy stated the Giants are about middle of the pack in cap space.

That's fine. The problem is they are at the bottom of the league in roster quality.

christian suggested there's a chance Gettleman announces his retirement at the upcoming press conference. I don't believe in the power of prayer, but I'll be praying christian is right.


We are not at the bottom of the league in roster quality. We were a few Engram fuck ups away from being an 8-8 team last season. We have a young team that turned a corner the second half of last year when they went 5-3. Add a few playmakers on offense and we are easily fighting for the division next season.
...  
christian : 3/5/2021 9:16 pm : link
"Backloaded" is a misnomer. The lion's share of guaranteed money in virtually all modern, big UFA contracts comes by way of:

1) signing bonuses that are spread across many years
2) guaranteed salaries and roster bonuses in the first years of the contract

The back end of contracts, particularly the last 2 years of 5 year deals, have very little by way of guaranteed dollars. It's typically big, non-guaranteed salaries that are unlikely to be earned.

Bradberry presumably maneuvered for a 3 year deal without the pageantry of those final strings, so he can hit UFA once more in his career.

If the Giants want to go that to well, I think the best they can do is turn 8M of his already guaranteed salary into a restructure bonus, and move 4M of the cap hit to 2022.
Here’s the other thing we have to remember:  
Vin_Cuccs : 3/5/2021 9:25 pm : link
Unused cap space is useless. Obviously teams need to have spending flexibility, but there should not be a competition for who has the most leftover space.

Teams up against the cap always want more space. Teams with non-competitive rosters, want to spend.

The moral of the story is that teams can manipulate the cap now better than ever. If they want or need space, they can create it.

Also, free agency is a supplement. Teams are built in the draft anyways. Ideally, teams won’t need to spend huge in free agency every year.
The REAL Reason that the GIANTS have cap issues.  
Red Dog : 3/5/2021 9:30 pm : link
Too many veteran free agent signings, particularly ones that have proven to be bad signings for whatever reason.

Why did they have so many vfas?

They had to sign them to make up for absolutely terrible drafting for a decade, specifically 2009 up through and including Gettleman's first draft which was done with most of the scouting organization and methods that he inherited from the Reese / Ross era.

RE: RE: Well...cap although annual....is really a mumulti-year roster provess  
k2tampa : 3/5/2021 9:32 pm : link
In comment 15168003 GiantsRage2007 said:
Quote:
In comment 15167986 George from PA said:


Quote:


Last years FAs....were front loaded.....rarely ever done. Almost all FA signing are back-loaded....

Corvid also cause a pull back on cap..vs the anticipated jump.

Although on paper the Giants do not have cap space, they can create a ton of cap space.....but right now, they are choosing not to....so
Next few years, the Giants will be flushed....with cap.




Actually they weren't. Dan Duggan discussed this in his latest article on the Athletic.

"Initially, Bradberry’s three-year, $43.5 million contract didn’t have a signing bonus. Instead, he was due a $12 million roster bonus in 2020. That would have resulted in a $16 million cap hit in 2020, followed by $14 million in 2021 and $13.5 million in 2022.

But before the contract was finalized, the bonus structure was tweaked. The Giants instead gave Bradberry a $3 million 2020 roster bonus and a $9 million signing bonus. Roster bonuses count fully against the cap in the year that they’re earned, while signing bonuses are amortized over the life of the contract.

The change made no difference to Bradberry: He was due $12 million within days of signing the contract under either structure. But the change lowered his cap hit for 2020 to $10 million, while bumping it up to $17 million in 2021 and $16.5 million in 2022.

Similarly, Martinez’s three-year, $30.75 million contract initially included a $10 million roster bonus in 2020 and no signing bonus. That structure resulted in cap hits of $14 million in 2020, $8.3 million in 2021 and $8.5 million in 2022. But the Giants switched to a $4 million roster bonus in 2020 to go with a $6 million signing bonus. As a result, his 2020 cap hit dropped to $10 million before jumping to $10.3 million in 2021 and $10.5 million in 2022."

And a 10% drop ($19.5 million) in the cap didn’t help with the way things look.
RE: Here’s the other thing we have to remember:  
TommyWiseau : 3/5/2021 9:37 pm : link
In comment 15168014 Vin_Cuccs said:
Quote:
Unused cap space is useless. Obviously teams need to have spending flexibility, but there should not be a competition for who has the most leftover space.

Teams up against the cap always want more space. Teams with non-competitive rosters, want to spend.

The moral of the story is that teams can manipulate the cap now better than ever. If they want or need space, they can create it.

Also, free agency is a supplement. Teams are built in the draft anyways. Ideally, teams won’t need to spend huge in free agency every year.


not totally true, unused cap space can be rolled over into the next year.
RE: RE: How come people don't understand the cap?  
MtDizzle : 3/5/2021 10:33 pm : link
In comment 15167973 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 15167962 ZogZerg said:


Quote:


.

+1

It's amazing we're are still getting threads about this no matter how many times it's been explained that the Giants have plenty of cap room. In fact, the Giants have enough cap room to tag Williams at $19.4M and not be handicapped because of it in free agency!


Both of you can take your snooty attitudes and collectively piss up a rope. Not everyone knows everything. We all bleed blue here. No need to be an elitist prick.
RE: RE: Here’s the other thing we have to remember:  
Vin_Cuccs : 3/5/2021 10:41 pm : link
In comment 15168019 TommyWiseau said:
Quote:
In comment 15168014 Vin_Cuccs said:


Quote:


Unused cap space is useless. Obviously teams need to have spending flexibility, but there should not be a competition for who has the most leftover space.

Teams up against the cap always want more space. Teams with non-competitive rosters, want to spend.

The moral of the story is that teams can manipulate the cap now better than ever. If they want or need space, they can create it.

Also, free agency is a supplement. Teams are built in the draft anyways. Ideally, teams won’t need to spend huge in free agency every year.



not totally true, unused cap space can be rolled over into the next year.


Correct. But you can only roll over so much.
RE: Here’s the other thing we have to remember:  
BH28 : 3/5/2021 11:01 pm : link
In comment 15168014 Vin_Cuccs said:
Quote:
Unused cap space is useless. Obviously teams need to have spending flexibility, but there should not be a competition for who has the most leftover space.

Teams up against the cap always want more space. Teams with non-competitive rosters, want to spend.

The moral of the story is that teams can manipulate the cap now better than ever. If they want or need space, they can create it.

Also, free agency is a supplement. Teams are built in the draft anyways. Ideally, teams won’t need to spend huge in free agency every year.


Agree, I'm not advocating for saving money just to save money. If the giants can figure out a way to sign the FAs they want and hold onto a Zeitler and/or Solder, they should for depth purposes because there aren't viable depth options currently on the roster. That gives them a year to draft/build some depth to jettison one or both of them next year.
Our GM is  
MyNameIsMyName : 3/5/2021 11:08 pm : link
DG. What do you expect?
The cap..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 3/5/2021 11:32 pm : link
is fluid. Look at the room and flexibilty we have in the next several years.

All these threads do is highlight that many have no fucking clue how the cap works. I'll say it until I'm blue in the face - people think having a lot of cap room is good management of the cap.
RE: The cap..  
MtDizzle : 3/6/2021 12:03 am : link
In comment 15168055 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
is fluid. Look at the room and flexibilty we have in the next several years.

All these threads do is highlight that many have no fucking clue how the cap works. I'll say it until I'm blue in the face - people think having a lot of cap room is good management of the cap.


It’s not my job to understand the cap turkey tits. I just know we should have a substantially better roster than we do at the moment. You ain’t got all the answers either. I’ve lost count over the years how many times you’ve had the proverbial egg on your face. Sloppy sucka.
.  
Bill2 : 3/6/2021 12:10 am : link
Amazing
...  
christian : 3/6/2021 12:24 am : link
The goal isn’t to spend all the money each year, it’s to build a balanced roster, compromised of good players paid fairly. If you can’t sign players that meet that criteria, no one gets a time out for rolling the money over.
RE: The cap..  
Go Terps : 3/6/2021 1:22 am : link
In comment 15168055 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
is fluid. Look at the room and flexibilty we have in the next several years.

All these threads do is highlight that many have no fucking clue how the cap works. I'll say it until I'm blue in the face - people think having a lot of cap room is good management of the cap.


Good management of the cap is having productive players paid at or below market value.

What good players do the Giants have that are paid at or below market value?
The Giants aren't getting enough production out of draft picks  
AdamBrag : 3/6/2021 1:38 am : link
It's that simple.

Until draft picks starting making a serious impact, the Giants will always be in a tough cap situation.
RE: Ranaan had the guy from Overthecap on his podcast yesterday  
Kev in Cali : 3/6/2021 2:10 am : link
In comment 15168007 Go Terps said:
Quote:
That guy stated the Giants are about middle of the pack in cap space.

That's fine. The problem is they are at the bottom of the league in roster quality.

christian suggested there's a chance Gettleman announces his retirement at the upcoming press conference. I don't believe in the power of prayer, but I'll be praying christian is right.


This year middle of the pack, following 2-3 we're sitting top 5, and not even on the list for 2024
"over-the-cap" - ( New Window )
Obviously...  
lax counsel : 3/6/2021 2:14 am : link
These are very good questions, and as some have suggested the issues lie in both draft production and player development. Somehow, we continue to read that it’s no ones fault that the Giants have been terrible for the better part of a decade, but I suspect that player evaluation at both the college and professional level leaves something to be desired. Thereafter, coaching up mid round talents at the NFL level has clearly been lacking.

When you put these two things together, it’s no wonder that the Giants need to pay above market rates for mediocre talents such as Nate Solder and Golden Tate. I would venture to say that the 2008 Giants wouldn’t have touched either free agent with a 10 foot pole during the offseason because at that time, player drafting and development was operating as it should- producing quality players from home grown talent. Relying on the free agent market to solidify critical positions in the long term generally doesn’t result in a quality return on investment- especially in the modern NFL.

I don’t know whether these things have been corrected. Certainly the record under the current regimes suggests a lot of work still to do, but we’ll see what occurs in the future. I truly believe 2021 is as big of a season as 2003-2004 turned out, which was the season setting the run for the next two Giants championships.
As others have said, the Giants DO NOT have cap issues  
USAF NYG Fan : 3/6/2021 4:37 am : link
and I also wonder why this keeps coming up. They appear to be in the same place they are every year at this time. They also have a lot of players that were brought in as bandaids who will be traded, cut, or re-worked. They have only just begun on that front.

Saints have SERIOUS cap "issues"
Rams & Eagles have BIG cap "issues"
Chiefs, Falcons, and Packers have cap "issues"
Bears, Lions, and Vikings have "concerns"

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space/

We are going to see a lot of good players cut throughout the league AND they will likely have to take less for 2021 than they did for 2020. It's tough to say if that will benefit our Giants as we are not viewed as a contender. I mean, if I'm taking a cut I would prefer to at least have a shot at a title. Also, I would probably want to sign a 1 year deal, hope I stay healthy, and plan for the cap to rebound in 2022.

Let's just see how the FA period plays out. Then, the draft. At this stage the Giants are neither ahead or behind on the cap.

RE: RE: The cap..  
section125 : 3/6/2021 6:18 am : link
In comment 15168061 MtDizzle said:
Quote:
In comment 15168055 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


is fluid. Look at the room and flexibilty we have in the next several years.

All these threads do is highlight that many have no fucking clue how the cap works. I'll say it until I'm blue in the face - people think having a lot of cap room is good management of the cap.



It’s not my job to understand the cap turkey tits. I just know we should have a substantially better roster than we do at the moment. You ain’t got all the answers either. I’ve lost count over the years how many times you’ve had the proverbial egg on your face. Sloppy sucka.


If it is not your job to understand the cap, then don't make snide comments about something you admittedly do not understand.
The roster is not good, but it is better than you think. Go look at any NFL roster and you will see it is made up of mostly JAGS. The difference is on good teams certain important positions have very good to elite players and more importantly superior coaching. I think if you focus on OLines, especially, you see most good lines have average players that are coached well and are established. The great lines have two or three above average players, but no below averages players.

There was a reason Judge wanted Degug to come in and help Colombo. The line was not developing. You cannot go anywhere with a non-functional line. There is a reason Sale was brought in as OL coach and that is to teach, college coaches need to be good teachers for their position. Flats is going to be part of that and I am sure for evaluating.
Why the Giants have little cap room...  
Jimmy Googs : 3/6/2021 8:14 am : link
-The Giants actually have a handful of good players and they make Very Good Money.

-The Giants have way too many average players who make Good Money.

-The Giants have too many below average players who make Average Money.

If you theoretically add those up, it basically takes up the entire cap...
It’s a consequence of drafting poorly  
UberAlias : 3/6/2021 8:36 am : link
The guys sucking up all the cap space are underperforming FAs. We couldn’t build an Oline so we tried to buy one. There are no sales in free agency. If Hernandez isn’t a reliable stater, that’s another costly fuck up.
RE: Ranaan had the guy from Overthecap on his podcast yesterday  
BigBlueShock : 3/6/2021 9:05 am : link
In comment 15168007 Go Terps said:
Quote:
That guy stated the Giants are about middle of the pack in cap space.

That's fine. The problem is they are at the bottom of the league in roster quality.

christian suggested there's a chance Gettleman announces his retirement at the upcoming press conference. I don't believe in the power of prayer, but I'll be praying christian is right.

I missed that thread. Was this something christian was hearing or is it just him guessing?
Comes down to poor drafting  
Biteymax22 : 3/6/2021 9:12 am : link
When a huge percentage of your draft picks miss if forces you to use free agency to plug holes. Understandably peoples first thought is to usually think of the higher paid FAs in relation to this but where it really hurts is the low tiers. We had guys on this roster last year (and this year) like Toilolio, Pulley, Mayo and Core that were paid more than they should of because we couldn’t draft (or find via UDFA) a player to play a back up role.

If you build through FA you over pay. If you build via the draft you get bargains.
People here get too hung up with the salary cap...  
EricJ : 3/6/2021 9:13 am : link
when the sole focus from a fan's perspective should be to add as many quality players as possible.

Over the years (and even in this thread to some extend) we hear the Giants are lacking in talent. Then, we get arguments here about whether we should re-sign one of our better players solely due to cap fears.

All of the guys who we need to sign should be signed because without them the team is not as good. It is that simple.

You keep your good players and hopefully pickup a few more younger players in the off season who will out perform their contracts.
Never mind  
BigBlueShock : 3/6/2021 9:16 am : link
I found the thread. He simply said he THINKS there’s a better than zero chance that Gettleman retires. I mean, better than zero? Not exactly going out on a limb there.

I would also think that if there was a retirement announcement coming, Mara would be part of that media session but all I’ve seen is that it’s Gettleman and Judge. I suppose it’s possible but I wouldn’t get your hopes up.
RE: Never mind  
EricJ : 3/6/2021 9:22 am : link
In comment 15168158 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
Mara would be part of that media session but all I’ve seen is that it’s Gettleman and Judge. I suppose it’s possible but I wouldn’t get your hopes up.


Agree... not happening but not even so much because Mara was not named as being part of the media session.

For me, the reason is because if we were going to hire a new GM, that guy needed to have been in place a few months ago. I cannot imaging handing the keys to a new GM in the middle of the off season without giving him an opportunity to make some of these decisions so far.

It simply makes no sense and to suggest that DG would retire (or get fired) at this point signals a lack of understanding of how this works. It would be like hiring a new head coach in the middle of training camp.
HC and coordinator changes bring roster turnover. For the Giants,  
Ivan15 : 3/6/2021 9:42 am : link
That means a rebuild every 2 years. Incoming coaches want “their guys” and that means dumping a lot of mid-level players and replacing them with the same quality players but paying more money to entice them to move to NY-NJ.

The tendency is to keep star players until they are disruptive or become cap casualties too.

Teams that hire a new HC who is willing to keep most of the coaching staff intact end up with a better cap situation because the staff is already committed to those players.
RE: The Giants having no cap room is a farce.  
Saquads26 : 3/6/2021 10:23 am : link
In comment 15167998 Vin_Cuccs said:
Quote:
Real quick rundown:

Candidates for cuts:
Zeitler=$12
Tate=$6.1
Solder=$10
Dixon=$2.65
Toilolo=$2.95
Mayo=$2.3
Core=$2

Total of~$38

Extend/restructure Bradberry, Martinez, Peppers

Total of~$10

Trading Engram could save $6

Total~$54 million without rollover.

They have space if they want it.


Exactly if opportunities arrive to get players they want they will move forward and cut dead weight. They can easily retain Williams and DT, make moves on the OL and sign a top WR.
...  
christian : 3/6/2021 11:01 am : link
My comment was I believe there is less than zero chance Gettleman retires. For the less discriminating of readers that means unlikely but not impossible.

He's not going to jump out of the window. I think there is a chance he announces this is his last year and/or they are planning the peaceful transition to Abrams.

In terms of team make up, the roster is categorically not full of bad free agent contracts. The only bad free agent contract on the 2021 books is Solder.

Zeitler and Peppers were acquired by trade. Zeitler is arguably on a bad, but infinitely exitable deal.

The only other free agents in the top 15 contracts/3M+ hit on the team are Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, and Gano. Those are arguably the Giants best players.

The other major factor is the Giant have 6 first round picks on the roster. Those are all medium-cost players. But that's a lot in any given year.
RE: ...  
BigBlueShock : 3/6/2021 11:26 am : link
In comment 15168217 christian said:
Quote:
My comment was I believe there is less than zero chance Gettleman retires. For the less discriminating of readers that means unlikely but not impossible.

I’m not sure if your condescending comment was directed at me or GoTerps, since he’s the one that posted what you said, but you should have gone back and checked what you said before posting a smug comment like this. Here’s exactly what you said with the post in its entirety...
...
christian : 3/3/2021 11:15 pm : link : reply
I think there’s a better than zero chance Gettleman announces his retirement.

So....yeah. That’s what you said.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 3/6/2021 11:37 am : link
In comment 15168254 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 15168217 christian said:


Quote:


My comment was I believe there is less than zero chance Gettleman retires. For the less discriminating of readers that means unlikely but not impossible.


I’m not sure if your condescending comment was directed at me or GoTerps, since he’s the one that posted what you said, but you should have gone back and checked what you said before posting a smug comment like this. Here’s exactly what you said with the post in its entirety...
...
christian : 3/3/2021 11:15 pm : link : reply
I think there’s a better than zero chance Gettleman announces his retirement.

So....yeah. That’s what you said.


Yikes. Should have proof read my snarky response.

I believe there is a *better* than zero chance, not *less* than zero.

I’m in a self imposed time out for an hour : )
RE: RE: RE: ...  
BigBlueShock : 3/6/2021 11:40 am : link
In comment 15168261 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15168254 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


In comment 15168217 christian said:


Quote:


My comment was I believe there is less than zero chance Gettleman retires. For the less discriminating of readers that means unlikely but not impossible.


I’m not sure if your condescending comment was directed at me or GoTerps, since he’s the one that posted what you said, but you should have gone back and checked what you said before posting a smug comment like this. Here’s exactly what you said with the post in its entirety...
...
christian : 3/3/2021 11:15 pm : link : reply
I think there’s a better than zero chance Gettleman announces his retirement.

So....yeah. That’s what you said.



Yikes. Should have proof read my snarky response.

I believe there is a *better* than zero chance, not *less* than zero.

I’m in a self imposed time out for an hour : )

It’s all good
A cap implies a head, but does not require one.  
Marty in Albany : 3/6/2021 12:09 pm : link
.
We have a clueless owner  
PaulN : 3/6/2021 12:21 pm : link
Who hired two horrible GM's back to back, that is why we have sucked so long and why there is no end in sight. I will once again say that I am a Joe Judge fan. These two GM's have had 10 years combined of poor drafting. Which is why we have Barkley and Jones on rookie deals and still suck. It can be argued that the drafting of Barkley especially and Jones are a huge part of the current problem. I don't really care who criticizes me so go for it, but anyone who can be objective knows this is the truth.
RE: Covid  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/6/2021 12:22 pm : link
In comment 15167957 US1 Giants said:
Quote:
.

I think you spelled "Abrams" wrong.
RE: The Giants having no cap room is a farce.  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/6/2021 12:24 pm : link
In comment 15167998 Vin_Cuccs said:
Quote:
Real quick rundown:

Candidates for cuts:
Zeitler=$12
Tate=$6.1
Solder=$10
Dixon=$2.65
Toilolo=$2.95
Mayo=$2.3
Core=$2

Total of~$38

Extend/restructure Bradberry, Martinez, Peppers

Total of~$10

Trading Engram could save $6

Total~$54 million without rollover.

They have space if they want it.

None of those come free of dead money.

Our front office is NOT good at cap management, not matter how much their PR machine has propped Abrams up.
RE: The cap..  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/6/2021 12:25 pm : link
In comment 15168055 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
is fluid. Look at the room and flexibilty we have in the next several years.

All these threads do is highlight that many have no fucking clue how the cap works. I'll say it until I'm blue in the face - people think having a lot of cap room is good management of the cap.

Speaking of "no fucking clue how the cap works," I present to you... FMIC!
I think lax’s comment is really incisive  
cosmicj : 3/6/2021 1:03 pm : link
Drafting failure leads to overpriced vet FA signings leads to cap troubles.
RE: ...  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/6/2021 1:15 pm : link
In comment 15168217 christian said:
Quote:
My comment was I believe there is less than zero chance Gettleman retires. For the less discriminating of readers that means unlikely but not impossible.

He's not going to jump out of the window. I think there is a chance he announces this is his last year and/or they are planning the peaceful transition to Abrams.

In terms of team make up, the roster is categorically not full of bad free agent contracts. The only bad free agent contract on the 2021 books is Solder.

Zeitler and Peppers were acquired by trade. Zeitler is arguably on a bad, but infinitely exitable deal.

The only other free agents in the top 15 contracts/3M+ hit on the team are Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, and Gano. Those are arguably the Giants best players.

The other major factor is the Giant have 6 first round picks on the roster. Those are all medium-cost players. But that's a lot in any given year.

Hot take alert:

Gano, as good as he is, is already overpaid.
RE: I think lax’s comment is really incisive  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/6/2021 1:29 pm : link
In comment 15168339 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Drafting failure leads to overpriced vet FA signings leads to cap troubles.

This is a common sentiment, but for a franchise like the Giants, it's not really true.

If you draft nothing but studs, you're still going to pay full price FA-value dollars to them at the end of their rookie contracts. Drafting your own studs, in this case, isn't any different than signing someone else's studs at the end of their rookie deals, except that the players who reach FA from other teams almost always have warts in some fashion.

Where a good team separates themselves is identifying their own good picks and extending them before the end of their rookie deal. We see this with other franchises regularly, but the Giants' SOP has been to let these guys reach FA first and then tag and/or sign them.

That's a fool's errand, IMO, and it leads to a binary outcome that eliminates the good-not-great bargain. If a player sucks, fine, get rid of them. If a player is great, you're probably going to pay top dollar whether you sign them after year 3/4 or 4/5. If they're good, but not great, you could actually achieve a bargain signing by locking them up after year three, but that requires a good deal of confidence in the players you drafted.

Failing that confidence, you're basically stuck with no desirable outcome on that good-not-great young player. Once they reach FA, they're up against other flawed but last-call-sexy (the hand grenade at the end of the bar that you talk yourself into rather than going home alone) options so you're stuck in a very fluid and dynamic negotiating position that COULD turn into a bargain, but even if it does, will occupy a fair amount of finite attention in the process.

Sign those good-not-great players a year earlier, prepare their cap hits strategically to align with the rest of your roster dynamics, and plan accordingly each year. Tomlinson, for example, should already be extended. But because we seem to prefer to let players reach FA first, now we're juggling LW and DT, rather than just negotiating with LW from a position of strength with DT already in the fold.

It's just another antiquated approach from NYG, IMO.
Dunk  
cosmicj : 3/6/2021 2:18 pm : link
Very interesting.

So I just checked the 2016 draft class, the year where the first rounders would have been subject to the 5th year option. None of the top 11 players picked were extended at anything like a bargain. Staley and Bosa were extended and never played under the 5th year option. Staley’s contract was not a bargain certainly and I don’t think Bosa’s was either. Players like Wentz, Goff and Ezekiel Elliott landed big contracts. Many of the players in the top 11 moved to different teams. I don’t see much evidence of teams getting discounts, and there are some premier organizations involved, not garbage teams like the Giants.

I kept working down the 2016 draft list and it looks to me like  
cosmicj : 3/6/2021 2:27 pm : link
The Jags used the “sign ‘em early” strategy to sign Myles Jack, also a high 2nd rounder like Tomlinson. It’s possible that Taylor Decker was signed at a discount but he still got a hefty contract. There’s not a lot of evidence of this strategy being used for the most recent draft class to which it applies.
...  
christian : 3/6/2021 3:06 pm : link
The Giants have 6 former 1st round players on their rookie deals and it should be 7 (Baker).

Those guys should be cornerstone players, and supplemented by free agents.

Jones, Barkley, Engram, Thomas, Lawrence, Peppers, and Baker should be among the unequivocal best players on the team.

You then have 4 big contract veterans acquired, who should be the steady veteran presence. Solder and Zeitler should be the old dog, steady hands on the line. On defense, then you have Bradberry and Martinez as the reliable, cerebral field generals.

That should be a pretty solid core.
RE: RE: RE: The cap..  
MtDizzle : 3/6/2021 4:56 pm : link
In comment 15168097 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15168061 MtDizzle said:


Quote:


In comment 15168055 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


is fluid. Look at the room and flexibilty we have in the next several years.

All these threads do is highlight that many have no fucking clue how the cap works. I'll say it until I'm blue in the face - people think having a lot of cap room is good management of the cap.



It’s not my job to understand the cap turkey tits. I just know we should have a substantially better roster than we do at the moment. You ain’t got all the answers either. I’ve lost count over the years how many times you’ve had the proverbial egg on your face. Sloppy sucka.



If it is not your job to understand the cap, then don't make snide comments about something you admittedly do not understand.
The roster is not good, but it is better than you think. Go look at any NFL roster and you will see it is made up of mostly JAGS. The difference is on good teams certain important positions have very good to elite players and more importantly superior coaching. I think if you focus on OLines, especially, you see most good lines have average players that are coached well and are established. The great lines have two or three above average players, but no below averages players.

There was a reason Judge wanted Degug to come in and help Colombo. The line was not developing. You cannot go anywhere with a non-functional line. There is a reason Sale was brought in as OL coach and that is to teach, college coaches need to be good teachers for their position. Flats is going to be part of that and I am sure for evaluating.


It’s my football team that I spend more time on than I care to admit. I made a post asking fellow fans to chat me up. It’s not that complicated bro.
RE: RE: I think lax’s comment is really incisive  
Jimmy Googs : 3/6/2021 5:08 pm : link
In comment 15168357 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:


Sign those good-not-great players a year earlier, prepare their cap hits strategically to align with the rest of your roster dynamics, and plan accordingly each year. Tomlinson, for example, should already be extended. But because we seem to prefer to let players reach FA first, now we're juggling LW and DT, rather than just negotiating with LW from a position of strength with DT already in the fold.

It's just another antiquated approach from NYG, IMO.


"Negotiating with LW from a position of strength"...what a novel idea that would have been for this Front Office who have bungled this process from the beginning.

Now rumors are leaking out that they are trying to move or cut Kevin Zeitler, which screams of possibly more Front Office desperation as they try to create savings to pay for Leonard Williams.

Not that Zeitler isn't paid a good bit (because he is), but the offensive line is still tenuous at best. And I would much rather see the Giants be strategic in continuing to look for opportunities to upgrade the performance on the OL on their own terms versus make yet another questionable move because they are between a rock and a hardplace at the negotiating table with big Leonard.

How not to build a roster, Chapter 4...
RE: ...  
Go Terps : 3/6/2021 6:34 pm : link
In comment 15168429 christian said:
Quote:
The Giants have 6 former 1st round players on their rookie deals and it should be 7 (Baker).

Those guys should be cornerstone players, and supplemented by free agents.

Jones, Barkley, Engram, Thomas, Lawrence, Peppers, and Baker should be among the unequivocal best players on the team.

You then have 4 big contract veterans acquired, who should be the steady veteran presence. Solder and Zeitler should be the old dog, steady hands on the line. On defense, then you have Bradberry and Martinez as the reliable, cerebral field generals.

That should be a pretty solid core.


This is why I'm against trading Engram. He's here, he's unquestionably talented, and it's up to the coaches to do a better job using him. Don't want to re-sign him? Fine - let him walk and figure into the comp pick formula.
RE: I know everyone thinks I hate Jones (I don't)  
GMen72 : 3/7/2021 3:04 am : link
In comment 15167983 Go Terps said:
Quote:
But this is why the Giants should (but won't) be open to moving Jones at the draft and drafting a quarterback. Doing that changes the timeline in the most crucial possible way.

That's been part of the problem under Gettleman: a total lack of understanding of or appreciation for the importance of timing.


Moving Jones for what? The guy threw for 12 TDs in 15 games...that's not even Trubisky numbers.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The cap..  
section125 : 3/7/2021 3:18 am : link
In comment 15168470 MtDizzle said:
Quote:


It’s my football team that I spend more time on than I care to admit. I made a post asking fellow fans to chat me up. It’s not that complicated bro.


What are you 12 years old? "I asked fellow fans to chat me up...., bro?" What does that mean?

You make comments on CAP space and then say it is not your job to understand it?
RE: RE: ...  
Gatorade Dunk : 3/7/2021 2:01 pm : link
In comment 15168513 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15168429 christian said:


Quote:


The Giants have 6 former 1st round players on their rookie deals and it should be 7 (Baker).

Those guys should be cornerstone players, and supplemented by free agents.

Jones, Barkley, Engram, Thomas, Lawrence, Peppers, and Baker should be among the unequivocal best players on the team.

You then have 4 big contract veterans acquired, who should be the steady veteran presence. Solder and Zeitler should be the old dog, steady hands on the line. On defense, then you have Bradberry and Martinez as the reliable, cerebral field generals.

That should be a pretty solid core.



This is why I'm against trading Engram. He's here, he's unquestionably talented, and it's up to the coaches to do a better job using him. Don't want to re-sign him? Fine - let him walk and figure into the comp pick formula.

Ehhh, the comp pick will help us in 2022, if it even happens at all. If someone is willing to offer a 3rd or 4th this year? Do it. It's almost guaranteed to be a higher value pick - and sooner - than the comp pick, which might get washed out entirely due to a signing spree by the new GM next offseason.
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