This to me is the biggest position of need on the roster. Right now the Giants have two WRs that are NFL caliber in Shepard and Slayton, but neither is a number 1 guy, or all that close to it.
In fact, the Giants may have the single worst WR corps in the NFL. There are some other contenders, but it's certainly close.
They should be both shopping at the top end of the market here in FA AND addressing with a high draft pick.
If you add someone like Golladay in FA and Waddle in the draft to this Giants roster, all of a sudden a massive hole becomes a big strength. Daniel Jones gets weapons, boxes are less packed for Saquon, and the entire offense starts to click.
I get that Golladay is expensive, but I feel like people always underestimate the amount of cap space teams can free up if they really need to. They can be competitive for Golladay/Robinson/Godwin, etc.
This was generally an NFL caliber defense last year. The offense is what held them back. Have to address it early and often this offseason.
WR's are built on speed/agility which comes with younger players so I say sign a 2nd tier Fa (Jamison Crowder/Juju) and fix this via draft.
Use the money to resign the DT's and get a pass rusher
In rd 1 of draft get Slater but in rd 2 take BPA available WR. Then in rd 3 an OT.
Now GMEN have just improved their TE, a 2nd rf pick WR is an improvement to Tate- in fact the 2d rd WR is arguably teh best WR.
Now you have Barkley back so you've improved at RB.
And now with Slater and bpa OT you have improved your OL.
We we're just starting to exploit Berkeley as a receiver. As both a receiver and a running back, he improves the unit. The offensive line gets better just from a preseason and continuity, and that helps the wide receiving unit.
Maybe Darius Slayton is not a true number one, but he'll get the better and I think significantly so. Dramatic under 4.4 forty speed, good height, and apparently the intangibles too: intelligent, determined, High work ethic. In a sophomore year and probably playing hurt, there's no reason to believe that we've seen his upside.
Having said all that I'm reminded a buffalo situation at this time last year. They had a quarterback that was all over the place and, infact,
Had the worst accuracy in the league and throws over 20 yards. I think they gave up their number 1 in a draft rich in WR's and signed a very expensive free agent. In a move that I thought was Folly at the time.
Bingo, the quarterback pulls it all together and they go deep in the playoffs.
So who knows? It simply emphasizes the fact that we barely know enough to qualify as Observers;, certainly not as prognosticators and, most certainly, not as decision makers LOL.
The Giants scored only 280 points. It wasn't because their receivers sucked.
Those Rosters have both etsablished targets and multiple young talents. For Instance, Pittsburg had Juju, Johnson, Ebron, Claypool...are you saying that the Giants have/had that sort of talent???? Indy???.... TY and a cast of emerging talents...Plus more than 125 Catches from Talented Backs.... those two teams did have HOF level qb's, albeit at the end of their string.
The Giants were with Shep, Slayton, Tate, and Engram---Shep and Tate played 24 games combined--- do we really need to march thru their results and careers to define this as a low talent and NO DEPTH mix?...CJ Board?...Austin Mack? I'm rooting for these Guys, but the 4,5,6 receivers need to offer something beyond Bomb Squadders.
You don't like Jones?...fine....whatever... maybe you're right, but what does that have to do with evaluating the receiver talent!!!????? Slayton needs to take a Step...Tate is gone, and Shep is a Professional, teetering on brittle physical condition. Engram is useable, with very little else in addition.
They need some talent.....they need another half second for whomever would be your QB.... and they need Jones to take a step up.
Your words right?
1) was a contender
2) would pay him big-time
Not exactly sure what happened in 2020 with Marvin Jones' season.
In the months leading up to around Thanksgiving, he was having a pretty poor season. But then in December the lightbulb seemed to go off and so did his productivity when he had some very big games.
Warning light?
they need to add 1 veteran starter
they need to add 1 draft pick in the first 3 rounds
doing both of the above gives them a 50/50 chance of adding an impact receiver which imo is the top need on the roster. I mentioned this in the Dunleavy thread but I'd feel confident making argument that of last year's final 4 teams their non-QB MVP's were Evans, Hill/Kelce, Diggs, and Adams. The NYG need to add the closest thing to players like that they can find this offseason.
The Giants scored only 280 points. It wasn't because their receivers sucked.
Dude, just stop. Throw the stat garbage out the fucking window
Use the sensibility test, is it appropriate to make a final evaluation 2 years as a body of work as a starting QB in this league ?
Just by asking the question it sounds absurd.
Assuming the answer is no, it's not unreasonable to have a discussion about how to be improve the offense.
Fully expect a WR early in the draft, eg Waddle at #11, if he's there is a wise wager.
Assuming the answer is no, it's not unreasonable to have a discussion about how to be improve the offense.
It's not unreasonable at all. It's definitely a problem in need of a solution. I just don't think different wife receivers is the solution.
The Giants have spent exorbitantly on the offense:
Jones - first round
Barkley - first round
Thomas - first round
Engram - first round
Shepard - second round + big contract
Hernandez - second round
Zeitler - big contract
Solder - big contract
Peart - 3rd round
Those are huge resource expenditures. The solution has to come from that list. If the players on that list need an overpay at WR and/or a draft pick to keep them from failing then there is a problem with that list, and we have to start thinking about replacing those players.
to my point from a post above, the final 4 teams non-QB mvps were:
Evans
Hill and/or Kelce
Diggs
Adams
expand a wider view of top contenders and Seattle has dk, NO had thomas, pitt has 3 very good wrs, etc. And if you want to glean anything from the Raiders perhaps it's that their best player is one of the biggest mismatch players in the game, and even with a mediocre (at best) QB like Carr they were able to score a lot of points?
there's no 1 player that's more glaringly missing from this roster than that player, including pass rusher.
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I just don't get the broader point. Even if you think Jones and Garrett are the bigger disasters, assuming they're not going anywhere, do you just give up?
Assuming the answer is no, it's not unreasonable to have a discussion about how to be improve the offense.
It's not unreasonable at all. It's definitely a problem in need of a solution. I just don't think different wife receivers is the solution.
The Giants have spent exorbitantly on the offense:
Jones - first round
Barkley - first round
Thomas - first round
Engram - first round
Shepard - second round + big contract
Hernandez - second round
Zeitler - big contract
Solder - big contract
Peart - 3rd round
Those are huge resource expenditures. The solution has to come from that list. If the players on that list need an overpay at WR and/or a draft pick to keep them from failing then there is a problem with that list, and we have to start thinking about replacing those players.
Heard and understood, but your list mostly illustrates the problem which is none of the money or resources has been spent on a true no. 1 WR who can win on the outside.
To your earlier point, there's a discussion about whether or not you need that guy to have a potent offense. Not necessarily disagreeing about that. But with the current roster and Daniel Jones as our QB he definitely would improve his play if he had a big 6'4 guy to win some 50/50 balls and/or a speedster to take the top off a defense.
I think the most economical approach would be:
- cut Zeitler and Solder and use that money forward a younger interior lineman
- sign a swing tackle
- sign a mid tier veteran WR to a shorter deal
- draft a blocking tight end
The line sucked last year so making them thinner at the expense of signing WRs is going to put us in the same position as last year.
There are so many roster holes you can't fix them all in one year. Concentrate on improving lines, worry about skill free agents next year. Improved o-line play should naturally improve running and passing game no matter how mediocre our WR talent is
loved how you pivoted and chose to reply to that mention but fail to address my overall comment.
cause I'm right
Yes of course points scored is a crucial statistic but its a very general stat needs to be applied to all facets of the offense and can't be attributed to just one player.
lol why can't you address my original comment ?
and I don't think anyone is saying that, once again its only part of upgrading the team.
Quote:
Then why are we acting like signing a wide receiver is going to solve our problems?
lol why can't you address my original comment ?
and I don't think anyone is saying that, once again its only part of upgrading the team.
What, about assessing Jones in year 2? It's absolutely appropriate. How many quarterbacks in the past ten years have started as poorly as he has and become a top level quarterback?
Shit by now Mahomes and Jackson had won MVP.
I think the most economical approach would be:
- cut Zeitler and Solder and use that money forward a younger interior lineman
- sign a swing tackle
- sign a mid tier veteran WR to a shorter deal
- draft a blocking tight end
I know I'm in the tiniest minority here
and Mara/DG will need to have a long discussion with NS to see if he still has the desire but man I really like Solder as the starting RT.
Brings vet experience, healthy from taking the year off and will be playing to redeem his value (chip on shoulder)
I truly feel like he could be a different player in this offensive line.
Especially if they find a premiere guard to play next to him.
Quote:
In comment 15168859 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Then why are we acting like signing a wide receiver is going to solve our problems?
lol why can't you address my original comment ?
and I don't think anyone is saying that, once again its only part of upgrading the team.
What, about assessing Jones in year 2? It's absolutely appropriate. How many quarterbacks in the past ten years have started as poorly as he has and become a top level quarterback?
Shit by now Mahomes and Jackson had won MVP.
not a fair comparison...
Mahomes came into rosters already built for them to win, including o-line. Jones did not
I think you need to lay off this beaten drum...
dude, the Giants scored over 340 pts in DJ's rookie year, with a bad OL and no legit #1 WR. DJ did some GOOD things that no rookie QB had ever done.
Is it so hard to believe that under normal circumstances (2020 was the complete opposite of normal for about 15 different reasons), that DJ and the Giant O could take a step forward from his rookie year, especially with a legit #1 target (who isnt among league leaders in dropped and intercepted passes) and achieve your magic # of 400 pts?
We're talking about 3.5 more pts a game from his rookie year.
Do you really think a better more experienced OL, Barkley and better receiver corps. couldn't translate to 3.5 more pts from his rookie yr?
Jones is well... in his 2nd year. In baseball we call that sophomore slump.
Should the Mets cut Pete Alonso for his sophomore slump ?
Seriously you and others need to let this replace Jones go shit
Oh yea, the Giants best players that the offense was completely built around was out for the whole effin season.
I'm done
Excuse me if I'm not excited by that horrible stat line.
I'm not sold that Jones will solve some of his issues. Like Brady or Mahomes, all QBs have career long limitations. Jones has so far seemed to display some troubling ones but there is a ton we don't and won't ever know.
But if that was any one of us getting a performance conclusion and ridiculed every dammed day without balance or mention of the mitigating facts and factors of last year, we would question and dismiss the qualifications and bias of the writer.
Go Terps, I believe you are better than this as an observer and balanced analyst. You doing your best helps the rest of us see better. Thanks
2. I am biased against the tidal wave of excuses and rationalizations that are made by posters to avoid acceptance of the fact that Jones has played poor football for two years. If Jones were on a rival we would be critical and relieved he wasn't a Giant.
Jones rates poorly against his contemporaries two years in. That's a fact. The rest is narrative.
2) what is the degree of possible future improvement?
3) at points in the past 24 months your comments on Jones seemed very different.
Why?
What were you seeing at the time?
Did the hopeful and positive things you observed go away forever?
The Giants scored only 280 points. It wasn't because their receivers sucked.
It would appear that football makes you a miserable, unhappy prick. Perhaps consider going away and finding different interests.
Quote:
Baltimore, Indy, Miami, Las Vegas, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland all scored 400+ points last year. What big WRs do they have?
The Giants scored only 280 points. It wasn't because their receivers sucked.
It would appear that football makes you a miserable, unhappy prick. Perhaps consider going away and finding different interests.
This seems to be about the 4th time in the last few days you have shown yourself to be one of, if not the worst poster on the site. And that takes some doing based on the chuckleheads here, but congrats nonetheless.
Keep posting if you like...but it would be best if you changed your spots.
Slump or trend? Biggest question to answer this season.
One guy on the field has the ability to in part create his own destiny, the QB. He’s got the line calls, the play calls, the pre-reads, the RPO, the progressions.
When Jones starts exhibiting command of all that, all get excited. Even if it doesn’t translate to much with the current cast, which frankly sucks.
Slump or trend? Biggest question to answer this season.
One guy on the field has the ability to in part create his own destiny, the QB. He’s got the line calls, the play calls, the pre-reads, the RPO, the progressions.
When Jones starts exhibiting command of all that, all get excited. Even if it doesn’t translate to much with the current cast, which frankly sucks.
jmo but my philosophy if it were my job on the line would be simple - take the guy you believe in the most then stick with that guy until a better option comes along. As an example if I were the NYJ I wouldn't put some arbitrary expiration date on Darnold but if I liked one of the young QBs in the draft I also wouldn't hesitate to take them. Every QB situation is a case by case judgement call and more than any other position heavily impacted by intangibles (how hard does the guy work? how much does team respect him? how well does he learn etc). Answers to those types of questions are likely what led to the quick decisions to move on from Rosen/Haskins far more than either of their right arms.
Yes.
1. He runs well. Designed runs with Jones are where I think he's most dangerous. Designed, because his straight line speed is his strength - he's not a dancer.
2. He's tough.
3. He generally delivers the ball accurately on "see it, throw it" passes. The ball comes out of his hand very nicely, though his release is slow and loopy - this was not something that was evident at his Pro Day.
2) what is the degree of possible future improvement?
I don't think it's very high. He's received coaching from Cutcliffe, Shurmur, and Garrett (whose scheme I would say is a problem but he does have a lot of experience with QBs), and he has fundamental problems that are not the sort you go to the NFL to fix. Poor pocket presence, difficulty seeing the field and throwing with anticipation, mechanics and ball security - one of those problems is hugely difficult to correct at the NFL, let alone three.
Keep in mind that the Giants are quickly approaching a decision point with Jones. Judge inherited him and may not have much patience. If Judge's influence is growing and Gettleman's is waning, it could shorten Jones's leash. Jones has to fix his issues NOW...not three years from now.
3) at points in the past 24 months your comments on Jones seemed very different.
Why?
What were you seeing at the time?
Did the hopeful and positive things you observed go away forever?
I liked what I saw from Jones at his Pro Day at Duke. I didn't like that they drafted him, but that had more to do with the poor asset allocation of paying Eli AND drafting Jones. After the 2019 season I wasn't sure how I felt about Jones. See my comments here in Sy's game review thread of the final game of the 2019 season:
That's a fair assessment. Not killing him, not anointing him. People are posting that Jones is the guy for 10-15 years...
And concerning Jones's performance against the Redskins, haven't you learned yet what games are real and which are bullshit? We went through this in '18 with people going nuts over offensive production against dead teams in the second half of the season.
This game against Philly was a real game, against real coaches (Schwartz's defense once again owning the Giants), against a real team that was playing for high stakes. That's what the season opener is going to look like next year...not the Redskins with an interim coaching staff.
I've said it in a bunch of threads...I like Jones, but the problems with his game are real: ball security and pocket presence. And I'm not sure they can ever get coached away...they weren't with Eli in 16 years.
I take umbrage with people calling this a great rookie season for Jones. It wasn't by any stretch. A 6.6 YPA, all the turnovers, and a 3-9 record as a starter don't scream "franchise QB" to me. Sorry.
I entered 2019 wanting to like Jones. I wanted him to be the starter for all 16 games; Eli's time was over. During the season I went where the evidence took me - "I like Jones, but the problems with his game are real."
I entered 2020 again wanting to like Jones. Again, I have gone where the evidence has taken me - he regressed in 2020 from an already poor 2019. That's not something I am making up or wanting to see in order to be proven right...it's just the facts. If anything I am being proven wrong...I liked him at his Pro Day and said so on that thread:
Go Terps : 3/26/2019 2:59 pm : link
This guy is going to shoot up the boards. I think he'll absolutely be in play at 6.
Go Terps : 3/26/2019 3:34 pm : link
You could say that right now about Brees and Brady today...5 to 15 yards is where the game is. That's where the bread is buttered, especially with our offense.
All of these QBs are imperfect; I wouldn't draft any of them in round 1. But if has to be one of them, I probably go with Jones.
The evidence to this point leans heavily towards Jones being a below average NFL starter, and probably a backup level NFL quarterback. Could that change? I won't say it definitely can't, but how often do we see that happen? And even if it does happen, what are the odds he will improve so much in a relatively short period of time to prove that he's worth paying a second contract? Anyone that's being honest would say it's unlikely.
If you want to talk about improving the discourse on BBI, how about we all start being honest about what's really going on with the team on and off the field? People give me shit for being negative (see LakeGeorge's comment above), but is it negativity if it's accurate?
If I see clouds and I tell you I think it's going to rain, that's not negativity.
I'm going to enter 2021 wanting to like Jones. Again. But I'm not going to make up excuses for his poor play. I will not take anything on faith. Jones hasn't earned it, Gettleman hasn't earned it, these Giants haven't earned it.
I am being fair in my criticism of Jones, of Gettleman, of Mara, of the Giants in general. If you don't think I am click on the Giants' Pro Football Reference page and take a good long look.
[quote] 1. I am biased against the poor football. Jones has played poor football for two years, and he was unspectacular at Duke.
2. I am biased against the tidal wave of excuses and rationalizations that are made by posters to avoid acceptance of the fact that Jones has played poor football for two years. If Jones were on a rival we would be critical and relieved he wasn't a Giant.
Jones rates poorly against his contemporaries two years in.]
No it isn't a fact, maybe according to you, but not to others. You don't lose a top five running back and have the issues the wide outs had without the drop in numbers. Let's face it you don't like Jones and that has been apparent since he was drafted. If I remember you wanted the Darnold and he has been fair from good and hasn't been as good as Jones rookie year.
Now go pound sand you miserable Terp
The five touchdown passes gave Jones three games this season with four or more touchdown passes, tying Deshaun Watson and Fran Tarkenton for the most by a first-year player in NFL history.
However, that was just the tip of the historic iceberg for Jones on Sunday.
With his five touchdown passes, Jones now has 23 on the season, passing Charlie Conerly for the most by a Giants rookie in franchise history.
But wait, there’s more (love to the late Billy Mays).
Jones was on fire to such a degree on Sunday that he was able to accomplish something that no other rookie quarterback has in the history of football. In fact, he accomplished a few things no other quarterback has.
The first-round pick became the first rookie quarterback in NFL history with four or more touchdown passes in three or more road games in a single season.
Still not enough? His 300+ yards passing, 5+ touchdowns and zero turnovers represented an all-time rookie first as well."
daniel-jones-has-etched-his-name-into-nfl-history-books - ( New Window )
I'm not comparing DJ or anyone with Joe Montana, but thought it would be interesting to see what his record was early in his career. Montana didn't play as a rookie, but he played in 10 games in his 2nd year (started 7).
The 49ers were 3-7 in the 10 games Montana played in 1980. Good thing Bill Walsh and the 49ers didn't think like goTerps.
1980 was 41 years ago. How many quarterbacks between then and now looked bad their first two years and stayed bad? Why use Montana as the template? Why not Todd Blackledge, or Blaine Gabbert, or Akili Smith, or Cade McNown, or Heath Shuler, or Jake Locker, or JP Losman, or any of the other first rounders that flamed out over those 41 years? There are probably a couple dozen of them at least.
Maybe Jones is Joe Montana. I can't say for sure that he isn't. But I know where the odds are.
I'm not comparing DJ or anyone with Joe Montana, but thought it would be interesting to see what his record was early in his career. Montana didn't play as a rookie, but he played in 10 games in his 2nd year (started 7).
The 49ers were 3-7 in the 10 games Montana played in 1980. Good thing Bill Walsh and the 49ers didn't think like goTerps.
In fairness, that was before the salary cap.
Now, in the cap era, QBs take up such a large percentage of the cap once they're onto their 2nd contract and beyond that you do have to consider the team's record at least somewhat in your decision on the QB. For example, if a QB on his rookie contract needs such a strong supporting cast around him in order to succeed, how will a team provide that same support when the QB's cap number doubles or triples?
While it does feel intrinsically unfair to pin a team's W/L record entirely on the QB, there is some legitimacy, IMO, in at least considering whether you'll ever be able to build a winning team around a QB given cap constraints, once the QB is no longer on his rookie contract.
Then whatever % you assign to that scenario, cross your fingers and root for it to come true.
The good news is that whatever that % is, it's likely still higher than the all time chances of any QB drafted outside the top 10 succeeding (by the numbers at least).
And bringing it back to the thread topic at hand, Diggs' impact on Josh Allen this past year also remains the most compelling reason to consider WR (or TE) the biggest team need by far.