This to me is the biggest position of need on the roster. Right now the Giants have two WRs that are NFL caliber in Shepard and Slayton, but neither is a number 1 guy, or all that close to it.
In fact, the Giants may have the single worst WR corps in the NFL. There are some other contenders, but it's certainly close.
They should be both shopping at the top end of the market here in FA AND addressing with a high draft pick.
If you add someone like Golladay in FA and Waddle in the draft to this Giants roster, all of a sudden a massive hole becomes a big strength. Daniel Jones gets weapons, boxes are less packed for Saquon, and the entire offense starts to click.
I get that Golladay is expensive, but I feel like people always underestimate the amount of cap space teams can free up if they really need to. They can be competitive for Golladay/Robinson/Godwin, etc.
This was generally an NFL caliber defense last year. The offense is what held them back. Have to address it early and often this offseason.
Excuse me if I'm not excited by that horrible stat line.
I'm not sold that Jones will solve some of his issues. Like Brady or Mahomes, all QBs have career long limitations. Jones has so far seemed to display some troubling ones but there is a ton we don't and won't ever know.
But if that was any one of us getting a performance conclusion and ridiculed every dammed day without balance or mention of the mitigating facts and factors of last year, we would question and dismiss the qualifications and bias of the writer.
Go Terps, I believe you are better than this as an observer and balanced analyst. You doing your best helps the rest of us see better. Thanks
2. I am biased against the tidal wave of excuses and rationalizations that are made by posters to avoid acceptance of the fact that Jones has played poor football for two years. If Jones were on a rival we would be critical and relieved he wasn't a Giant.
Jones rates poorly against his contemporaries two years in. That's a fact. The rest is narrative.
2) what is the degree of possible future improvement?
3) at points in the past 24 months your comments on Jones seemed very different.
Why?
What were you seeing at the time?
Did the hopeful and positive things you observed go away forever?
The Giants scored only 280 points. It wasn't because their receivers sucked.
It would appear that football makes you a miserable, unhappy prick. Perhaps consider going away and finding different interests.
Quote:
Baltimore, Indy, Miami, Las Vegas, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland all scored 400+ points last year. What big WRs do they have?
The Giants scored only 280 points. It wasn't because their receivers sucked.
It would appear that football makes you a miserable, unhappy prick. Perhaps consider going away and finding different interests.
This seems to be about the 4th time in the last few days you have shown yourself to be one of, if not the worst poster on the site. And that takes some doing based on the chuckleheads here, but congrats nonetheless.
Keep posting if you like...but it would be best if you changed your spots.
Slump or trend? Biggest question to answer this season.
One guy on the field has the ability to in part create his own destiny, the QB. He’s got the line calls, the play calls, the pre-reads, the RPO, the progressions.
When Jones starts exhibiting command of all that, all get excited. Even if it doesn’t translate to much with the current cast, which frankly sucks.
Slump or trend? Biggest question to answer this season.
One guy on the field has the ability to in part create his own destiny, the QB. He’s got the line calls, the play calls, the pre-reads, the RPO, the progressions.
When Jones starts exhibiting command of all that, all get excited. Even if it doesn’t translate to much with the current cast, which frankly sucks.
jmo but my philosophy if it were my job on the line would be simple - take the guy you believe in the most then stick with that guy until a better option comes along. As an example if I were the NYJ I wouldn't put some arbitrary expiration date on Darnold but if I liked one of the young QBs in the draft I also wouldn't hesitate to take them. Every QB situation is a case by case judgement call and more than any other position heavily impacted by intangibles (how hard does the guy work? how much does team respect him? how well does he learn etc). Answers to those types of questions are likely what led to the quick decisions to move on from Rosen/Haskins far more than either of their right arms.
Yes.
1. He runs well. Designed runs with Jones are where I think he's most dangerous. Designed, because his straight line speed is his strength - he's not a dancer.
2. He's tough.
3. He generally delivers the ball accurately on "see it, throw it" passes. The ball comes out of his hand very nicely, though his release is slow and loopy - this was not something that was evident at his Pro Day.
2) what is the degree of possible future improvement?
I don't think it's very high. He's received coaching from Cutcliffe, Shurmur, and Garrett (whose scheme I would say is a problem but he does have a lot of experience with QBs), and he has fundamental problems that are not the sort you go to the NFL to fix. Poor pocket presence, difficulty seeing the field and throwing with anticipation, mechanics and ball security - one of those problems is hugely difficult to correct at the NFL, let alone three.
Keep in mind that the Giants are quickly approaching a decision point with Jones. Judge inherited him and may not have much patience. If Judge's influence is growing and Gettleman's is waning, it could shorten Jones's leash. Jones has to fix his issues NOW...not three years from now.
3) at points in the past 24 months your comments on Jones seemed very different.
Why?
What were you seeing at the time?
Did the hopeful and positive things you observed go away forever?
I liked what I saw from Jones at his Pro Day at Duke. I didn't like that they drafted him, but that had more to do with the poor asset allocation of paying Eli AND drafting Jones. After the 2019 season I wasn't sure how I felt about Jones. See my comments here in Sy's game review thread of the final game of the 2019 season:
That's a fair assessment. Not killing him, not anointing him. People are posting that Jones is the guy for 10-15 years...
And concerning Jones's performance against the Redskins, haven't you learned yet what games are real and which are bullshit? We went through this in '18 with people going nuts over offensive production against dead teams in the second half of the season.
This game against Philly was a real game, against real coaches (Schwartz's defense once again owning the Giants), against a real team that was playing for high stakes. That's what the season opener is going to look like next year...not the Redskins with an interim coaching staff.
I've said it in a bunch of threads...I like Jones, but the problems with his game are real: ball security and pocket presence. And I'm not sure they can ever get coached away...they weren't with Eli in 16 years.
I take umbrage with people calling this a great rookie season for Jones. It wasn't by any stretch. A 6.6 YPA, all the turnovers, and a 3-9 record as a starter don't scream "franchise QB" to me. Sorry.
I entered 2019 wanting to like Jones. I wanted him to be the starter for all 16 games; Eli's time was over. During the season I went where the evidence took me - "I like Jones, but the problems with his game are real."
I entered 2020 again wanting to like Jones. Again, I have gone where the evidence has taken me - he regressed in 2020 from an already poor 2019. That's not something I am making up or wanting to see in order to be proven right...it's just the facts. If anything I am being proven wrong...I liked him at his Pro Day and said so on that thread:
Go Terps : 3/26/2019 2:59 pm : link
This guy is going to shoot up the boards. I think he'll absolutely be in play at 6.
Go Terps : 3/26/2019 3:34 pm : link
You could say that right now about Brees and Brady today...5 to 15 yards is where the game is. That's where the bread is buttered, especially with our offense.
All of these QBs are imperfect; I wouldn't draft any of them in round 1. But if has to be one of them, I probably go with Jones.
The evidence to this point leans heavily towards Jones being a below average NFL starter, and probably a backup level NFL quarterback. Could that change? I won't say it definitely can't, but how often do we see that happen? And even if it does happen, what are the odds he will improve so much in a relatively short period of time to prove that he's worth paying a second contract? Anyone that's being honest would say it's unlikely.
If you want to talk about improving the discourse on BBI, how about we all start being honest about what's really going on with the team on and off the field? People give me shit for being negative (see LakeGeorge's comment above), but is it negativity if it's accurate?
If I see clouds and I tell you I think it's going to rain, that's not negativity.
I'm going to enter 2021 wanting to like Jones. Again. But I'm not going to make up excuses for his poor play. I will not take anything on faith. Jones hasn't earned it, Gettleman hasn't earned it, these Giants haven't earned it.
I am being fair in my criticism of Jones, of Gettleman, of Mara, of the Giants in general. If you don't think I am click on the Giants' Pro Football Reference page and take a good long look.
[quote] 1. I am biased against the poor football. Jones has played poor football for two years, and he was unspectacular at Duke.
2. I am biased against the tidal wave of excuses and rationalizations that are made by posters to avoid acceptance of the fact that Jones has played poor football for two years. If Jones were on a rival we would be critical and relieved he wasn't a Giant.
Jones rates poorly against his contemporaries two years in.]
No it isn't a fact, maybe according to you, but not to others. You don't lose a top five running back and have the issues the wide outs had without the drop in numbers. Let's face it you don't like Jones and that has been apparent since he was drafted. If I remember you wanted the Darnold and he has been fair from good and hasn't been as good as Jones rookie year.
Now go pound sand you miserable Terp
The five touchdown passes gave Jones three games this season with four or more touchdown passes, tying Deshaun Watson and Fran Tarkenton for the most by a first-year player in NFL history.
However, that was just the tip of the historic iceberg for Jones on Sunday.
With his five touchdown passes, Jones now has 23 on the season, passing Charlie Conerly for the most by a Giants rookie in franchise history.
But wait, there’s more (love to the late Billy Mays).
Jones was on fire to such a degree on Sunday that he was able to accomplish something that no other rookie quarterback has in the history of football. In fact, he accomplished a few things no other quarterback has.
The first-round pick became the first rookie quarterback in NFL history with four or more touchdown passes in three or more road games in a single season.
Still not enough? His 300+ yards passing, 5+ touchdowns and zero turnovers represented an all-time rookie first as well."
daniel-jones-has-etched-his-name-into-nfl-history-books - ( New Window )
I'm not comparing DJ or anyone with Joe Montana, but thought it would be interesting to see what his record was early in his career. Montana didn't play as a rookie, but he played in 10 games in his 2nd year (started 7).
The 49ers were 3-7 in the 10 games Montana played in 1980. Good thing Bill Walsh and the 49ers didn't think like goTerps.
1980 was 41 years ago. How many quarterbacks between then and now looked bad their first two years and stayed bad? Why use Montana as the template? Why not Todd Blackledge, or Blaine Gabbert, or Akili Smith, or Cade McNown, or Heath Shuler, or Jake Locker, or JP Losman, or any of the other first rounders that flamed out over those 41 years? There are probably a couple dozen of them at least.
Maybe Jones is Joe Montana. I can't say for sure that he isn't. But I know where the odds are.
I'm not comparing DJ or anyone with Joe Montana, but thought it would be interesting to see what his record was early in his career. Montana didn't play as a rookie, but he played in 10 games in his 2nd year (started 7).
The 49ers were 3-7 in the 10 games Montana played in 1980. Good thing Bill Walsh and the 49ers didn't think like goTerps.
In fairness, that was before the salary cap.
Now, in the cap era, QBs take up such a large percentage of the cap once they're onto their 2nd contract and beyond that you do have to consider the team's record at least somewhat in your decision on the QB. For example, if a QB on his rookie contract needs such a strong supporting cast around him in order to succeed, how will a team provide that same support when the QB's cap number doubles or triples?
While it does feel intrinsically unfair to pin a team's W/L record entirely on the QB, there is some legitimacy, IMO, in at least considering whether you'll ever be able to build a winning team around a QB given cap constraints, once the QB is no longer on his rookie contract.
Then whatever % you assign to that scenario, cross your fingers and root for it to come true.
The good news is that whatever that % is, it's likely still higher than the all time chances of any QB drafted outside the top 10 succeeding (by the numbers at least).
And bringing it back to the thread topic at hand, Diggs' impact on Josh Allen this past year also remains the most compelling reason to consider WR (or TE) the biggest team need by far.