It's Year 2 because it's the second year of Joe Judge Era (JJE). He's risen from relative obscurity to become the prime mover of the Giants going forward. Clearly, his influence is being felt in and out of the locker room, and if he hasn't quite relegated Dave Gettleman to a supporting role, it seems to me that he's the straw stirring Gettleman's drink, not the other way around.
Judge inherited a bad team. Reversing the Giants' fortunes would be no mean feat, and it was made even more difficult with the restrictions placed upon him and his team because of the coronavirus situation, particularly in the player evaluation department. Zoom meetings were a poor substitute for OTA's, minicamps, and in-person observation and evaluation, and with injuries and illness pressing several younger players into service who otherwise might have benefitted from sitting and learning for a year, a bad situation was made worse.
So, now in his second year, and hopefully with the coronavirus restrictions removed (or at least lessened), and with a year's worth of film to study, I think he can finally complete the evaluation process. In my view (and what I hope is Judge's view, too), nothing is more important than deciding if Daniel Jones is a bona fide franchise QB or not. Not just a "game manager," not just "well, he's okay," but an indispensable cog in the Giants' machine. The need to provide him with more weapons was obvious, and the need to beef up his protection is, too. For Jones, there can be no more excuses. He either elevates his play this year or the Giants will look to replace him ASAP.
I believe the Giants will make every effort to set Jones up for success. Signing Golladay and Rudolph were two steps in the right direction. I'm pretty confident that they'll look to add another weapon (or two) in the upcoming draft. The offensive line, though, is still in flux, and signing Zach Fulton in no way mitigates the loss of Kevin Zeitler. However, where the Giants are currently weak, the draft is strong, with good O-Line prospects who should be available in the first three rounds (and possibly into the 4th). The Giants would be fools not to take advantage of that, and while I may have doubts about Dave Gettleman, I don't have any with regard to Joe Judge.
The absolute bottom line in Year 2, though, is that the Giants need to win more games than they lose. Their offense needs to be efficient, if not not explosive, although both would be fantastic. Bobby Skinner's always talking about how the NFL is a "big play" league, that you win with big plays. That's as may be (as the Brits say). I do know one thing...you won't win if you can't make many plays at all, big or small.
Finally, with respect to the defense, while I hope the Giants' draft leans heavily toward the offense, the chance to draft a true impact defender, the proverbial "difference-maker," should not be dismissed. If the Giants have their eyes on such a player and they're able to draft him, so be it. I won't complain...much.
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To summarize:
Now that we have Coach Joe
Gettleman may not need to go
The old players have improved
The recent additions have shown ability
Things are looking up
At the Hackensack facility.
This is it for Jones imo. I think there is concerns despite the positive comments from Judge but he is moving forward.
I share your concerns with the OL but I believe it will be addressed significantly in the draft and I think he may feel part or the poor performance was coaching which he addressed.
They can still be a good team even with a average offense. They should have a very good D and I think he will want a big upgrade in specials. I have a suspicion he has worked a lot with Garret in implementing changes to the schemes. We may see a whole new blocking scheme.
It is no wonder that Barkley put up the numbers he did his rookie year with obj garnering a lot of attention. By adding golladay, it opens up slayton, shepard, engram and rudolph. It also opens up the running game. Play action will be a legitimate tool as well as run / pass options.
This is what judge envisions. The defense will have to cover the whole field and will have to choose where to center their attention on a given play.
But not much has changed...
Shummur was on board with Daniel Jones
As Joe Judge told Nate Burleson, it was important to get Jones more weapons. Evaluating Jones and winning games are not mutually exclusive. The hope is that with better weapons, Jones will have a good year and the Giants will win more games. If Jones falters, at least the next man up will have a few weapons to work with, but the Giants need to know what they have with Jones now. It's a pivotal year for him.
I believe nine wins is an imperative for the Giants this year, as long as they can stay relatively healthy. I don't want to hear about "improvement." I want to hear about victories. I want winning to begat more winning.
But not much has changed...
Shummur was on board with Daniel Jones
Shurmur is history, and Joe Judge isn't "married" to Daniel Jones, even if Gettleman is (and that goes for Barkley and everyone else on the team prior to 2020). I doubt that Joe Judge is going to let an albatross of a QB bring him down. If he feels that Jones needs to be replaced, he will be replaced, and Gettleman won't have much to say about it.
The Giants have been serial fuck ups on this journey since 2016.
It’s so much bigger than the current GM. The principals involved in retaining and/or hiring GMs and coaches have sucked at this since the moment the forced out Coughlin and gave Reese the fix it or else mandate.
It’s shouldn’t take 3 tries, but it did. Hopefully this is it.
he’s expecting a successful season. If they fall short, he will know why and make the appropriate adjustments. That could include QB, RB and any other position that doesn’t measure up.
19 was real reset year. 20 and 21 saw upwards of 2 dozen new players brought in and many of them have a good future here. And all of them, save for Ryan, are very young.
It is no wonder that Barkley put up the numbers he did his rookie year with obj garnering a lot of attention. By adding golladay, it opens up slayton, shepard, engram and rudolph. It also opens up the running game. Play action will be a legitimate tool as well as run / pass options.
This is what judge envisions. The defense will have to cover the whole field and will have to choose where to center their attention on a given play.
Required reading right here. Anyone thinking skill players don’t help the OL... think again.
But, no offense, Jim, the idea that the Giants are going to "go big" is the stuff that Super Bowl clocks are made of. It's overly optimistic.
Even with a full offseason, the team and its new acquisitions will need time to gel. Without knowing what the 2021 schedule is, I can envision a few stumbles early on, but if they can go 4-4 after 8 games, than 9-7 is not unreasonable.
he’s expecting a successful season. If they fall short, he will know why and make the appropriate adjustments. That could include QB, RB and any other position that doesn’t measure up.
Yep, the roster wasn’t getting better and all indications are Judge got his feet wet with the additions last year, and now is basically taking much more control of process this year. Somebody had to.
The Giants can use like one edge rusher, and one guard. We don't need either to win the division, and most importantly win a playoff game. When you have a roster with a PRO BOWL ( WR, RB, DT, CB, S, and TEs) you need to win more the 10 games, and I believe with second year in the systems both side will be drastically improved. Outside of Tampa Bay, Green Bay, and the Rams there aren't many NFC teams that have the talent the Giants have.
2021 Prediction 12-5, lose to Greenbay in the NFC Championship game. Gettleman GM of the Year, Danny Dimes makes the Pro Bowl, Barkley OPOY, and Micah Parson win DROY.
We back!!!
Couldn't agree more with this line. The Giants can't talk themselves into liking below average play.
Joe Judge, March 9, 2021: "I love Evan. Have a lot of confidence is Evan."
Joe Judge, April 29, 2021: "But we received an offer for him that we just couldn't pass up."
It could happen.
The Giants can use like one edge rusher, and one guard. We don't need either to win the division, and most importantly win a playoff game. When you have a roster with a PRO BOWL ( WR, RB, DT, CB, S, and TEs) you need to win more the 10 games, and I believe with second year in the systems both side will be drastically improved. Outside of Tampa Bay, Green Bay, and the Rams there aren't many NFC teams that have the talent the Giants have.
2021 Prediction 12-5, lose to Greenbay in the NFC Championship game. Gettleman GM of the Year, Danny Dimes makes the Pro Bowl, Barkley OPOY, and Micah Parson win DROY.
We back!!!
I remember you from the bourbon thread
The coaches have always shopped there own groceries....I think the difference....Judge has more contacts and want to see into people eye.
We know he is a great communicator
The big concern I have as of now and I hope he overcomes it are those tight throws in small windows particularly on the sideline. These type of throws are critical against better defenses who have the players to match up. To me this will make him a keeper or not.
Jones is not going to be bad in 21. I am all but sure of it based on how he looked week 9-17. How good is the question. Better team? Better qb results.
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The Giants brass is accumulating offensive weapons to properly evaluate Jones, rather they are accumulating them to enhance their ability to win games. We don’t have to have a winning record this year, but we need to exhibit a reasonable amount of improvement. I agree that the online needs to be further enhanced in the draft. Gettlemen probably hasn’t changed the way he does business, but more likely finally has a head coach with a vision that he can work with.
As Joe Judge told Nate Burleson, it was important to get Jones more weapons. Evaluating Jones and winning games are not mutually exclusive. The hope is that with better weapons, Jones will have a good year and the Giants will win more games. If Jones falters, at least the next man up will have a few weapons to work with, but the Giants need to know what they have with Jones now. It's a pivotal year for him.
I believe nine wins is an imperative for the Giants this year, as long as they can stay relatively healthy. I don't want to hear about "improvement." I want to hear about victories. I want winning to begat more winning.
Exactly. The improvement and moral victories occurred last year. Now it’s time for it to actually translate to wins.
There’s a lot of high draft picks and high dollar FA acquisitions. It’s time to produce.
I see a really talented kid who will be Giants quarterback for many years to come
Baker Mayfield's 2020 production is the floor for what we need from Jones.
I want a 30 TD/10 INT season.
I think press conferences are usually bullshit, but I thought DG's comments were informative:
This was a tacit admission he sees the struggles too.
Stop giving Jones excuses and start making him earn credit.
Enough excuses, enough bullshit. It's been constant for two years.
You can put a start point on the “re-build” to defend your favorite character in the play, and forgive all the bad shit that’s gone on. I guess that makes some fans feel better.
The reality is since Coughlin was forced out, the Giants have had 3 coaches, 2 GMs, 8 first round picks, several guys wear the belt as most expensive at his position based on x, and one winning season.
In the last 15 months it feels like the Giants learned a lot, and are making fewer of the same mistakes. The big next step, and this is something Gettleman should have learned from 2018. When it comes time to make a decision on Barkley and Jones — will it be with firm confidence they are the leaders who will take the team to a championship, or will it be influenced by sentimentality, loyalty, and fear. Because that’s what that 2018 offseason smelled like.
This is why I'm content to give Jones at least another year to see if he's the real deal or not. If he is, fine. If he's not, then the upgrades the Giants have made (and will make) should benefit the guy who replaces him.
But I don't want mediocre play being talked about as if it's good just because it's an improvement over 2020.
2) He’s answering the wrong question. No on expects Jones to be a perfect player. What we expect is improvement and flashes of really impressive play. Neither was apparent in 2020.
I think Brett is right to point out that the subtext here is everyone knows that Jones play has been lousy. Gettleman, being who he is, spoons out some sloppy, half-thought out bullshit. Judge puts out a honed, practiced line that doesn’t hang his QB out to dry. It’s so honed that multiple posters on BBI take his public statement at face value and honestly believe Judge is enthusiastic about Jones.
I read those press conference quotes as meaning that Jones has about 10-12 games to convince the Giants he is promising enough or the 2022 offseason will be about finding the next QB.
Guys like Mariota and Trubisky tread water in the NFL, unless most things are right around them. I want to see him unequivocally break out of that tier this year.
But I don't want mediocre play being talked about as if it's good just because it's an improvement over 2020.
Exactly. The standard by which Jones should be measured is not his 2019.
Measure him by his successful contemporaries: Mahomes, Jackson, Allen, Mayfield, Herbert, Watson (if he plays). I'm not interested in the next Mariota.
Be as good as those guys, or be gone because you don't merit getting paid a second deal.
Stop giving Jones excuses and start making him earn credit.
Enough excuses, enough bullshit. It's been constant for two years.
It’s not bullshit. It’s called NFL player development. If it was always that easy it wouldn’t be the NFL. Qbs can take time. Especially when the offense also needs time. Broken record.
If Jones was losing those Philly and Dallas games and throwing back breaking picks and not helping the giants score 27 pts or so don’t you think the giants brass would have processed jones’ play differently? Of course they would.
This isn’t blind fucking faith no matter how you interpret things.
Jones has had good games and certainly has excellent physical attributes. He can make great plays. He's not Ben DiNucci out there.
Jones has had good games and certainly has excellent physical attributes. He can make great plays. He's not Ben DiNucci out there.
Other than the cards game I disagree that he was bad. And the whole team was dreadful in that cards game.
I’m not even writing off the cards game. It’s there. And it will be there again just like Eli had stinkers even in 2007.
He was much better second half. I don’t wanna hear about the stats.
Quote:
Jones was still bad in the back half of the year.
Jones has had good games and certainly has excellent physical attributes. He can make great plays. He's not Ben DiNucci out there.
Other than the cards game I disagree that he was bad. And the whole team was dreadful in that cards game.
I’m not even writing off the cards game. It’s there. And it will be there again just like Eli had stinkers even in 2007.
He was much better second half. I don’t wanna hear about the stats.
Of course you don't want to hear about stats, because the stats say he wasn't good. And if you want to give him credit for improving in the second half, that's fine. Just acknowledge that his level was so low that improvement was inevitable. He couldn't get worse. His "improvement" was still a joke next to the top quarterbacks in the league.
For Jones to merit being the starter in 2022 he has to show a level of play he hasn't shown yet in the pros. What we've seen to this point isn't good enough.
Fuck the stats. Watch the games. Watch them again. Watch them objectively. Leave out the hate for DG. Watch jones and the team play first half vs second half of the season and factor in the offensive talent and tell me jones didn’t resemble a legit pro nfl QB by the end of the year. And don’t fucking tell me offensive personnel isn’t a factor. Of course it is. And with that said, the qb needs to elevate his team. Jones did that in 4.5 games over his final 8, he missed 2 games.
He was admittedly dreadful first half. He was solid second half.
This garbage about “playing like an elite qb” is fine, but it’s a stupid narrative that is impossible to quantify and it’s being parroted by people here with an agenda. If he doesn’t throw 30 tds but throws 24 while the team wins 10 games that won’t be enough for some of you. And I can see the posts coming now. Same shit we endured around here with Eli.
Jones needs to play well. Win games first. Post your warm and fuzzy “elite qb” stats second.
You can slobber on Justin Herbert next year if stats are all you care about. Next big win he gets will be his first. Funny how that works. Rookie Jones was about 10% under Herbert rookie stats but we don’t wanna hear that anymore. Ok cool. Let jones win games here and then we can bitch and moan that the 6th pick isn’t elite because the stats say so. We all know it’s coming...
Jones has two total TDs combined in those skins Philly wins. He wasn’t good in those games? Bullshit.
If you're setting the bar at game manager caliber QB, that's fine. But it isn't good QB play.
He didn’t go from terrible to bad. He went from terrible to solid. And that was with a less than ideal offensive array of talent. And yes, that’s a factor. Eli and the 04 giants weren’t scoring points either until the last month or so.
It’s not blind faith. You’ve been implying or shouting that early and often.
If you're setting the bar at game manager caliber QB, that's fine. But it isn't good QB play.
It’s not lowering the bar. I’ve been watching football long enough to know that stats aren’t always the end all be all. And even if they were, we are not going to move on or ditch jones if his stats aren’t “elite.” Saying that jones has to post elite stats is just a bunch of bullshit. These same people saying that we’re defending Eli when he wasn’t posting elite stats.
Jones has to win. First and foremost. If he goes 9-10 wins and his qb rating and stats place him in the middle? Take a guess who the qb is in 2022 unless his 2021 play indicates he can’t lead the giants to more wins in 2022?
It’s not all about the stats and you guys know this.
Also, Jones fumbled more in the back half of the year than the first. He just lost fewer fumbles.
I don't see what 04 Eli has to do with anything - 04 Eli sucked.
My point is I’m not going to kill jones if his stats aren’t elite because many qbs have had merely decent statistical seasons but still won games and down the road won bigger games. And their stats improved too over time.
This isn’t a race. Jones doesn’t have to post elite stats in 2021 in order to cement his status as a winning player. Of course we all want 35 and 4800 yards. Don’t hold your breath. We want nice stats. We need to win. Jones can help the team win while not posting up elite stats and that would be fine.
But like I said, if jones posts merely decent, but we win 10 games and jones is an integral part of those wins, many fans here will fucking bitch and drive home their agenda driven crap because they need to. Winning won’t be enough for some here. I guarantee it.
I'm not demanding a 30 TD/10 INT year. But I am also very skeptical we will sit here ten months from now and think Jones played well with a 16 TD/12 INT year. So there's quite a bit of nuance to the numbers. But if Jones goes 16/12 and we make the playoffs, I'll probably think he's holding us back and we need to upgrade the QB position.