For the life of me I will never understand baseball fans who are pro billionaire owner over the player? Who cares what the player gets a little more money? There is no salary cap and this owner has pieces of art he’s paid more for.
But sure be happy that Sandy didn’t “overpay” while the players does well on another team.
it's not picking owners over players, but even the owners with the deepest pockets a) set a budget and b) have the luxury tax which is an additive tax and continues to get worse the longer you exceed it
knowing this fact, most fans just want good players signed and don't really care if player x gets eleventy billion dollars as long as player y can still be signed.
if you're suggesting fans shouldn't care about the luxury tax and should hold owners feet to the fire to exceed it regularly, well that's just not realistic. Billionaire, millionaire, whatever, almost no one owns a sports team to lose money even if it's not their primary source of income.
I think it's got to be public negotiating, but the only reason a player of that stature was available to you is because his last teams'offer topped out at 200m. So you're trading for the guy on the understanding that he wants a truckload of money. They weren't going in blind to the nature of the beast they were hunting.
And trading for him means you don't have much leverage here to play with. You're a new ownership group. Your fans are hypersensitive to money issues, specifically not spending money. There would be no situation where letting him walk and taking the compensatory picks makes doesn't bring out the pitchforks and torches and make you appear to be deaf-eared to the team and fanbase you inherited.
I get your points and to be clear I was directing it at mostly at fans reactions elsewhere and people like Evan Roberts saying Lindor is risking alienating the fan base.
But I’m sorry the only effect paying Lindor another 5 mill a year is on Cohens wallet. You should always want to get a good deal but you also want a good team with good players. And while I’m excited about Cohen and thrilled the Wilpons are gone, his only big move this offseason was the Lindor trade. They passed or lost on every big free agent and haven’t locked up Noah or Conforto.
Lastly, deGrom might be on the best contract in the sport. Maybe use those savings to beef up the team around him?
I get your points and to be clear I was directing it at mostly at fans reactions elsewhere and people like Evan Roberts saying Lindor is risking alienating the fan base.
But I’m sorry the only effect paying Lindor another 5 mill a year is on Cohens wallet. You should always want to get a good deal but you also want a good team with good players. And while I’m excited about Cohen and thrilled the Wilpons are gone, his only big move this offseason was the Lindor trade. They passed or lost on every big free agent and haven’t locked up Noah or Conforto.
Lastly, deGrom might be on the best contract in the sport. Maybe use those savings to beef up the team around him?
This is not necessarily correct.
Quote:
But I’m sorry the only effect paying Lindor another 5 mill a year is on Cohens wallet.
Unless you are advocating for the Mets to have a limitless payroll, the effect of this can be not being able to sign Conforto and/or Syndergaard and remaining under the luxury tax.
As I indicated before, the luxury tax is not something I advocate exceeding other than for a 1 year anomaly, because exceeding it every year has compounding penalties including draft picks, IFA, and fees.
Having a billionaire owner does mean a limitless payroll nor should it and the Mets have to find a way to pay everyone and remain under the LT (most years).
its not like they offered him some BS 8/240 kind of deal. I think there is a good chance that Lindor's agent knows the mets made the trade so the pressure is on them and that cohen is worth billions so the agent is doing what they are supposed to and trying to get their client the most money. Aside from the tax (that 5 mill can make a big difference) cohen probably doesnt want to set the precedent that you can ask for whatever you want and the Mets will cave. This is a negotiation, if the agent floated 12/375 right away and Cohen was like "im good with that deal" do we really think that the agent wouldnt say "oh well i talked to my client and we actually think 12/400 is more fair.
But to say "what's the diff" between "billionaire owner" giving 30 mil a year or 35 mill (I know those aren't the numbers) The same could be said of "the player" Is 30 million a year just not enough to get by on in the city of NY? That's about 65 THOUSAND dollars per at bat - or if he hits 300 - call it 200 hits - $162k per hit.
And for those saying its the market rate - no - it isn't - it MAY be in the future - but it isn't - Tatis by comparison got a 14 year deal at $340 but is 5 years younger AND 8% of his earnings go to a "MLB futures company" over and above agent/manager etc.
So, yeah 5 million a year may be pocket change for Uncle Stevie but I'm not crying pauper at 32 million dollars a year to play a game.
The tatis deal isn't a reflection of market rate either
For a variety of reasons. I don't think SD had to pay Tatis for some time yet. They just chose to. And I'm sure he was happy to get $300m rather than just play to his rookie deal.
is precisely because fans will generally default to "He gets X millions to play a game, when is enough enough?".
Cohen is going to be making quite a lot of money by having Lindor in his uniform selling merchandise and tickets and inflating the franchise's value even more.
Gary Myers
@GaryMyersNY
·
48m
I remember Mickey Mantle signing for $100,000 for 1963 season. Francisco Lindor just turned down $200,617.28 per game from Mets. When is enough enough? He was offered 10-year $325M deal. Wants 12-year $385M to age 39 season. Not a good look for Mr. Smile, especially in pandemic.
Being honest, it's a little unsettling, maybe it requires some getting used to, but it seems weird seeing the owner commenting publicly on active negotiations.
Being honest, it's a little unsettling, maybe it requires some getting used to, but it seems weird seeing the owner commenting publicly on active negotiations.
It's low-class and something players may take notice of going forward. Crowd-sourcing his next contract? This latest tweet? Serves no purpose.. at all.
"In response to an article that implied the Mets and Lindor’s camp were looking for avenues to bridge a gap in negotiations, Cohen replied: “I don’t see a lot of brainstorming going on over here.”
Metsmerized
@Metsmerized
·
4m
Per @jackramseymmo
, There is still an expectation that Francisco Lindor will sign by Opening Day, but a source says that the deal will not be for 12 years and $385 million
Metsmerized
@Metsmerized
·
4m
Per @jackramseymmo
, There is still an expectation that Francisco Lindor will sign by Opening Day, but a source says that the deal will not be for 12 years and $385 million
100% wasn't trying to knock him at all. I just meant he's not (or hasn't been) one to break any news unlike say, Michael Mayer who has in fact broken some stories despite "only" being a blogger.
Not going to argue the value of Francisco Lindor but this new narrative "he obviously doesn't want to be here" is absurd and based on fans prepping to be butthurt. He believes he's worth more than 325 million (rightly or wrongly). That's it
don't need a checkmark to be an informed sports "writer" on twitter. Guys like Michael Mayer and Resnick have repeatedly broken news. I have no idea who they have as sources but they do. Even Joe D, he had the Callaway story from a legitimate writer before it even broke. I just tend to doubt "who again?" on MAJOR stories that other big-time team-connected sources don't have. I want to believe Cohen is bull-shitting when he essentially claims they aren't looking for ways to get this done.
don't need a checkmark to be an informed sports "writer" on twitter. Guys like Michael Mayer and Resnick have repeatedly broken news. I have no idea who they have as sources but they do. Even Joe D, he had the Callaway story from a legitimate writer before it even broke. I just tend to doubt "who again?" on MAJOR stories that other big-time team-connected sources don't have. I want to believe Cohen is bull-shitting when he essentially claims they aren't looking for ways to get this done.
As much as I blame both sides in these cases - Do we think everyone is (in reality) dug in or is it posture.
Does 10/325 final offer - really mean FINAL (Cohen tweeting - he hopes Lindor signs) and does Francisco saying Will not negotiate after 4/1 REALLY mean talks are dead dead?
I hope we find out soon and that there is some movement since I would like both sides happy with the end result. 10/340 or some such... or last two years team option at 32m or whatever
It's like getting mad at a dog for barking and sniffing butts.
It should surprise no one that Lindor was going for maximum dollars. He wouldn't go for 200m in cleveland, then watched a child with 143 career games get 300m.
i'd bet a lot of money a deal gets done in the next 24 hours
that's just how these things go when it makes too much sense to both sides. JDG and LW are 2 recent examples where some of the most plugged in writers on both sides were saying "no momentum" hours before official announcements.
Both sides know the deadline, both sides want a deal, a deal will get done.
If it doesn't one side screwed up big time, and in this case I don't think it would be the NYM (assuming the $325m offer is true).
It's like getting mad at a dog for barking and sniffing butts.
It should surprise no one that Lindor was going for maximum dollars. He wouldn't go for 200m in cleveland, then watched a child with 143 career games get 300m.
That child also accepted a $24m AAV even though he may shortly be the best player in the sport. Every situation is different.
It's like getting mad at a dog for barking and sniffing butts.
It should surprise no one that Lindor was going for maximum dollars. He wouldn't go for 200m in cleveland, then watched a child with 143 career games get 300m.
That child also accepted a $24m AAV even though he may shortly be the best player in the sport. Every situation is different.
He would have been absolutely foolish not to. In Tatis' situation his deal is quite player friendly. They could have simply held him on a team-friendly rookie deal.
Lindor is a much more accomplished player and has been consistently excellent year in and year out. If Tatis is worth that, what agent wouldn't argue that a four-time all star in his early prime, who hit the cover off the ball in the ALCS and the World Series, isn't worth significantly more? His agent is doing what he should.
It's like getting mad at a dog for barking and sniffing butts.
It should surprise no one that Lindor was going for maximum dollars. He wouldn't go for 200m in cleveland, then watched a child with 143 career games get 300m.
That child also accepted a $24m AAV even though he may shortly be the best player in the sport. Every situation is different.
Yeah Eric... not exactly a fair take. Tatis was NOWHERE near FA. The Padres did him an incredible "solid" in giving him the deal that they did. He didn't take 24 million as an unselfish move, his agent explained to him the most money a 1st year arbitration-eligible player has ever made was 11.9 million... and he was 2 years away from even achieving THAT possibility.
Mike Puma
@NYPost_Mets
·
10s
deGrom, Stroman, Peterson, Walker and deGrom is the rotation order, with TBA after that, possibly an opener.
The strategy of an opener works in AL, but I fail to see it in NL because you then limit how long your first reliever can go with the P spot due up unless you are intending for him to bat (which defeats one of the uses of an opener - that no pitcher is around long enough to bat allowing you to have a quasi-DH spot)
"Not only is he a superstar on the field, but he pays attention, he works hard, he cares about his teammates and not only doe he have the quantifiable numbers of a superstar, he has the X-factor," Alonso said on Lindor. "What he brings to a clubhouse is tremendous and can't be measured, along with his superstar talent. ... He's worth every penny of what he decides ... so yeah, pay him $400 million."
It's like getting mad at a dog for barking and sniffing butts.
It should surprise no one that Lindor was going for maximum dollars. He wouldn't go for 200m in cleveland, then watched a child with 143 career games get 300m.
That child also accepted a $24m AAV even though he may shortly be the best player in the sport. Every situation is different.
Yeah Eric... not exactly a fair take. Tatis was NOWHERE near FA. The Padres did him an incredible "solid" in giving him the deal that they did. He didn't take 24 million as an unselfish move, his agent explained to him the most money a 1st year arbitration-eligible player has ever made was 11.9 million... and he was 2 years away from even achieving THAT possibility.
Exactly my point - its apples to oranges to compare 2 totally different deals. Tatis' deal was a complete unicorn. My point re AAV was that you can deceptively cite it just as easily as deceptively looking at just the grand total. Tatis' deal should have very little to do with Lindor's deal because Lindor is not 22 years old and he's also not 4+ years from FA.
Separate from that the whole public debate on this negotiation is silly and mostly a waste of time. Everyone knows what the appropriate deal is based on the comps and we all know the NYM made that offer. I'd be incredibly surprised if Lindor passes on it and I think it would be exceedingly risky of him to do so. So for those reasons I'd be very surprised if he does in fact pass on it, but if he does it's his right. It's just as possible his doing so would do the Mets a favor as otherwise.
Every debate on any issue here could be boiled down
To a waste of time. I'm not sure where you're going with that. It's a discussion board. We're all here because we're choosing to kill time talking about it.
And I dont think you'd find a player agent anywhere who wouldn't use a recently signed contract at the same position as the framework for another deal. We see it all the time in the NFL. We can say tatis is a different scenario, but its not entirely. SD got to that number somehow, under no leverage stress since Tatis was years from free agency.
"punishing" lindor 's value for being 4 years younger is easily countered by the just the facts that he's been top of the league great, consistently. There are no questions about his ability, no concerns of regression. He's proven in the regular season and the playoffs. Youth is certainly not the leading metric for contract valuation. There's more risk in the younger player because there's more unknown.
TTH I wasn't talking about the debate here specifically
but overall by the fanbase and writers everywhere (twitter, interviews, etc). Broadly speaking some topics are absorbed and discussed more smartly than others, and this one has been on the wrong end of the spectrum. I saw a comment (not here) that related the cost of Cohen's SEC fine to why he'd be "cheap" if he didn't get Lindor signed. Of course discussion is the point of any message board but this topic seems so overwrought ("same old mets!") when the NYM to this point have done exactly the right things and shown no reason to believe they won't do what it takes to keep Lindor now or in the future should he continue to hold out (and should they want him).
As far as Tatis, it was a first of it's kind deal and the 2 situations were very different from each other, period. The comparable deals from players recently at UFA or within 1 year of approaching it are those that as in the article below have been correctly utilized as comparisons ad nauseam since January - Betts, Harper, Arenado, Machado. Britton's projection in this article below from almost 3 months ago was 11 years 330m. Which turns out to be right in line with where the Mets are right now. Also relatively predictable since January was that this would come down to the deadline and that there would be all sorts of rumors until the moment something actually happens.
But sure be happy that Sandy didn’t “overpay” while the players does well on another team.
it's not picking owners over players, but even the owners with the deepest pockets a) set a budget and b) have the luxury tax which is an additive tax and continues to get worse the longer you exceed it
knowing this fact, most fans just want good players signed and don't really care if player x gets eleventy billion dollars as long as player y can still be signed.
if you're suggesting fans shouldn't care about the luxury tax and should hold owners feet to the fire to exceed it regularly, well that's just not realistic. Billionaire, millionaire, whatever, almost no one owns a sports team to lose money even if it's not their primary source of income.
And trading for him means you don't have much leverage here to play with. You're a new ownership group. Your fans are hypersensitive to money issues, specifically not spending money. There would be no situation where letting him walk and taking the compensatory picks makes doesn't bring out the pitchforks and torches and make you appear to be deaf-eared to the team and fanbase you inherited.
But I’m sorry the only effect paying Lindor another 5 mill a year is on Cohens wallet. You should always want to get a good deal but you also want a good team with good players. And while I’m excited about Cohen and thrilled the Wilpons are gone, his only big move this offseason was the Lindor trade. They passed or lost on every big free agent and haven’t locked up Noah or Conforto.
Lastly, deGrom might be on the best contract in the sport. Maybe use those savings to beef up the team around him?
But I’m sorry the only effect paying Lindor another 5 mill a year is on Cohens wallet. You should always want to get a good deal but you also want a good team with good players. And while I’m excited about Cohen and thrilled the Wilpons are gone, his only big move this offseason was the Lindor trade. They passed or lost on every big free agent and haven’t locked up Noah or Conforto.
Lastly, deGrom might be on the best contract in the sport. Maybe use those savings to beef up the team around him?
This is not necessarily correct.
Unless you are advocating for the Mets to have a limitless payroll, the effect of this can be not being able to sign Conforto and/or Syndergaard and remaining under the luxury tax.
As I indicated before, the luxury tax is not something I advocate exceeding other than for a 1 year anomaly, because exceeding it every year has compounding penalties including draft picks, IFA, and fees.
Having a billionaire owner does mean a limitless payroll nor should it and the Mets have to find a way to pay everyone and remain under the LT (most years).
Having a billionaire owner does mean a....
should be
Having a billionaire owner does *not* mean a....
Also who cares what Evan Roberts says, lol.
And for those saying its the market rate - no - it isn't - it MAY be in the future - but it isn't - Tatis by comparison got a 14 year deal at $340 but is 5 years younger AND 8% of his earnings go to a "MLB futures company" over and above agent/manager etc.
So, yeah 5 million a year may be pocket change for Uncle Stevie but I'm not crying pauper at 32 million dollars a year to play a game.
Cohen is going to be making quite a lot of money by having Lindor in his uniform selling merchandise and tickets and inflating the franchise's value even more.
@GaryMyersNY
·
48m
I remember Mickey Mantle signing for $100,000 for 1963 season. Francisco Lindor just turned down $200,617.28 per game from Mets. When is enough enough? He was offered 10-year $325M deal. Wants 12-year $385M to age 39 season. Not a good look for Mr. Smile, especially in pandemic.
Being honest, it's a little unsettling, maybe it requires some getting used to, but it seems weird seeing the owner commenting publicly on active negotiations.
I mean why would Cohen troll the fans like this
Being honest, it's a little unsettling, maybe it requires some getting used to, but it seems weird seeing the owner commenting publicly on active negotiations.
It's low-class and something players may take notice of going forward. Crowd-sourcing his next contract? This latest tweet? Serves no purpose.. at all.
I think something like 7yrs/$165M gets it done.
Quote:
Martino says Boras has floated 200 million for Conforto.
I think something like 7yrs/$165M gets it done.
I'd be stunned. Springer was 3 years older and coming off "COVID 2020". Conforto is going to get close to 200. The OF market is in a word.. laughable.
"In response to an article that implied the Mets and Lindor’s camp were looking for avenues to bridge a gap in negotiations, Cohen replied: “I don’t see a lot of brainstorming going on over here.”
He's intentionally trolling his own fanbase at this point. Great.
Jack Ramsey
@jackramseymmo
·
18m
Source to me just now: “I think (Lindor) signs”
He's intentionally trolling his own fanbase at this point. Great.
Telling the fans they aren't looking for ways to appease Lindor is one strange thing to opt to do.
Jack Ramsey
@jackramseymmo
·
18m
Source to me just now: “I think (Lindor) signs”
He's a nice guy but he's "just" a blogger for MMO. No knock on him but he's not a reporter.
Metsmerized
@Metsmerized
·
4m
Per @jackramseymmo
, There is still an expectation that Francisco Lindor will sign by Opening Day, but a source says that the deal will not be for 12 years and $385 million
Metsmerized
@Metsmerized
·
4m
Per @jackramseymmo
, There is still an expectation that Francisco Lindor will sign by Opening Day, but a source says that the deal will not be for 12 years and $385 million
100% wasn't trying to knock him at all. I just meant he's not (or hasn't been) one to break any news unlike say, Michael Mayer who has in fact broken some stories despite "only" being a blogger.
Sometimes people like me see tweets on twitter and share them.
Your background helped people put it in context.
IOW it's not like this is coming from Rosenthal or baseball's version of Schefter.
10 for 325 is 32.5 per season
12 for 385 is 32 per season
So while people are going nuts over "385!" it's not exactly a crazy upper end to ask for. I'd offer 11 for 357.5 and completely split the difference.
As much as I blame both sides in these cases - Do we think everyone is (in reality) dug in or is it posture.
Does 10/325 final offer - really mean FINAL (Cohen tweeting - he hopes Lindor signs) and does Francisco saying Will not negotiate after 4/1 REALLY mean talks are dead dead?
I hope we find out soon and that there is some movement since I would like both sides happy with the end result. 10/340 or some such... or last two years team option at 32m or whatever
It should surprise no one that Lindor was going for maximum dollars. He wouldn't go for 200m in cleveland, then watched a child with 143 career games get 300m.
Both sides know the deadline, both sides want a deal, a deal will get done.
If it doesn't one side screwed up big time, and in this case I don't think it would be the NYM (assuming the $325m offer is true).
It should surprise no one that Lindor was going for maximum dollars. He wouldn't go for 200m in cleveland, then watched a child with 143 career games get 300m.
That child also accepted a $24m AAV even though he may shortly be the best player in the sport. Every situation is different.
Quote:
It's like getting mad at a dog for barking and sniffing butts.
It should surprise no one that Lindor was going for maximum dollars. He wouldn't go for 200m in cleveland, then watched a child with 143 career games get 300m.
That child also accepted a $24m AAV even though he may shortly be the best player in the sport. Every situation is different.
He would have been absolutely foolish not to. In Tatis' situation his deal is quite player friendly. They could have simply held him on a team-friendly rookie deal.
Lindor is a much more accomplished player and has been consistently excellent year in and year out. If Tatis is worth that, what agent wouldn't argue that a four-time all star in his early prime, who hit the cover off the ball in the ALCS and the World Series, isn't worth significantly more? His agent is doing what he should.
Brujan, Gorman, Abrams, Dominguez, Celestin, Green, Gore, Lacy, Meyer, Mize
Quote:
It's like getting mad at a dog for barking and sniffing butts.
It should surprise no one that Lindor was going for maximum dollars. He wouldn't go for 200m in cleveland, then watched a child with 143 career games get 300m.
That child also accepted a $24m AAV even though he may shortly be the best player in the sport. Every situation is different.
Yeah Eric... not exactly a fair take. Tatis was NOWHERE near FA. The Padres did him an incredible "solid" in giving him the deal that they did. He didn't take 24 million as an unselfish move, his agent explained to him the most money a 1st year arbitration-eligible player has ever made was 11.9 million... and he was 2 years away from even achieving THAT possibility.
@NYPost_Mets
·
10s
deGrom, Stroman, Peterson, Walker and deGrom is the rotation order, with TBA after that, possibly an opener.
Stupid of Lindor to turn down this offer (if a deal doesn't ultimately get done). $30 mil for a 39 year old Lindor? No thanks.
Stupid of Lindor to turn down this offer (if a deal doesn't ultimately get done). $30 mil for a 39 year old Lindor? No thanks.
Yup - I dont care who or how they save face at this point - just get'r done and let's Play Ball
@NYPost_Mets
·
10s
deGrom, Stroman, Peterson, Walker and deGrom is the rotation order, with TBA after that, possibly an opener.
The strategy of an opener works in AL, but I fail to see it in NL because you then limit how long your first reliever can go with the P spot due up unless you are intending for him to bat (which defeats one of the uses of an opener - that no pitcher is around long enough to bat allowing you to have a quasi-DH spot)
Quote:
In comment 15203051 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
It's like getting mad at a dog for barking and sniffing butts.
It should surprise no one that Lindor was going for maximum dollars. He wouldn't go for 200m in cleveland, then watched a child with 143 career games get 300m.
That child also accepted a $24m AAV even though he may shortly be the best player in the sport. Every situation is different.
Yeah Eric... not exactly a fair take. Tatis was NOWHERE near FA. The Padres did him an incredible "solid" in giving him the deal that they did. He didn't take 24 million as an unselfish move, his agent explained to him the most money a 1st year arbitration-eligible player has ever made was 11.9 million... and he was 2 years away from even achieving THAT possibility.
Exactly my point - its apples to oranges to compare 2 totally different deals. Tatis' deal was a complete unicorn. My point re AAV was that you can deceptively cite it just as easily as deceptively looking at just the grand total. Tatis' deal should have very little to do with Lindor's deal because Lindor is not 22 years old and he's also not 4+ years from FA.
Separate from that the whole public debate on this negotiation is silly and mostly a waste of time. Everyone knows what the appropriate deal is based on the comps and we all know the NYM made that offer. I'd be incredibly surprised if Lindor passes on it and I think it would be exceedingly risky of him to do so. So for those reasons I'd be very surprised if he does in fact pass on it, but if he does it's his right. It's just as possible his doing so would do the Mets a favor as otherwise.
And I dont think you'd find a player agent anywhere who wouldn't use a recently signed contract at the same position as the framework for another deal. We see it all the time in the NFL. We can say tatis is a different scenario, but its not entirely. SD got to that number somehow, under no leverage stress since Tatis was years from free agency.
"punishing" lindor 's value for being 4 years younger is easily countered by the just the facts that he's been top of the league great, consistently. There are no questions about his ability, no concerns of regression. He's proven in the regular season and the playoffs. Youth is certainly not the leading metric for contract valuation. There's more risk in the younger player because there's more unknown.
As far as Tatis, it was a first of it's kind deal and the 2 situations were very different from each other, period. The comparable deals from players recently at UFA or within 1 year of approaching it are those that as in the article below have been correctly utilized as comparisons ad nauseam since January - Betts, Harper, Arenado, Machado. Britton's projection in this article below from almost 3 months ago was 11 years 330m. Which turns out to be right in line with where the Mets are right now. Also relatively predictable since January was that this would come down to the deadline and that there would be all sorts of rumors until the moment something actually happens.
Lindor may be willing to roll the dice but it seems like a lot more risk on his end, especially with the CBA looming. One way or another there will be a press conference with a highly paid SS and Steve Cohen over the next 10 months.
Francisco Lindor is open to an extension with the Mets. What might it cost? - ( New Window )
Would be a shame to lose him if all he wants is something like 8/200