In 7-year chunks, here are the average number of RBs taken in the first round for the years:
1979 - 1985: 4.3**
1986 - 1992: 4.0
1993 - 1999: 3.0
2000 - 2006: 3.1
2007 - 2013: 2.6
2014 - 2020: 1.4
**To be read: There was an average of 4.3 running backs taken per Draft Year for the 7-Year period 1979 - 1985.
The data are even more stark when you consider that -- as the average number of backs selected decreased, the number of teams selecting in Round One increased (due to league expansion). Thus, on a percentage basis, the fall-off in RBs selected in Round One is probably more dramatic.
Source: I tallied these data utilizing Wikipedia as the primary source.
Round One.
Next to taking a punter, or being a team that is a perennial SB contender, placing a bet on a first round RB is a very dumb investment.
What have they won with him? Stanley or Ramsey would have helped the Cowboys more
Yes.
Not equal but very close. 4th is a little lower...
That is a way better use of resources than what Dallas did with Elliott - draft him high and then pay him... horrible. Cautionary tale for the Giants with Barkley. Hopefully Barkley looks great in 2021 and creates a trade market.
100%. And then they compounded the dumb by re-signing Zeke.
Unfortunately, that sounds true...
Mara basically implied that at his State of the Union in January.
Goog's posted a great Gettleman quote the other day where DG cites that football and winning hasn't really changed since 1935. And running the ball to win is basically one of the three rails to winning.
And I'd bet Mara agrees wholeheartedly. Which means Team SB will also back up the Brinks Truck...
By Draft Year in the First Round:
7 RBs
1982
6RBs
1981
1987
1990
5 RBs
1979
1989
1995
2000
2008
4 RBs
1980
1983
1986
1998
2006
3 RBs
1985
1988
1993
1996
2001
2004
2005
2009
2010
2012
2018
2 RBs
1991
1992
1994
1997
1999
2002
2003
2007
2015
2017
1 RB
1984
2011
2013
2016
2019
2020
No RBs
2014
McCaffrey had an enormous season in 2019. They scored 340 points and went 5-11. He missed most of 2020, they scored 350 points and went 5-11.
Like Barkley's big 2018, McCaffrey's big 2019 didn't have much effect.
I agree that the short careers and short peaks of most RBs make them a bad investment at the top of the draft.
and intertwined with one another that it is very difficult -- if not impossible -- to tease out the relative importance of one over the other.
But it is clear from the First Round data that the NFL has progressively over time down-played the importance of the running back position.
What that also probably means is that First Round running back talent has most likely fallen into Round Two. And there are numerous recent examples such as Dalvin Cook (#41 overall 2017 Draft); Derrick Henry (#45 overall 2016 Draft); Nick Chubb and Ronald Jones II (#35 and #38 overall 2018 Draft).
The average play league wide that season went for 5.6 yards.
Barkley had nearly 50% of the touches on offense that season. It's no surprise then that the offense wasn't particularly good (23.1 PPG).
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was taken #8 overall and has produced at a very high level for the Panthers. Signed a 4 yr extension with them last year. He did have an injury that cut his season short, though.
McCaffrey had an enormous season in 2019. They scored 340 points and went 5-11. He missed most of 2020, they scored 350 points and went 5-11.
Like Barkley's big 2018, McCaffrey's big 2019 didn't have much effect.
I'm not sure what the correlation is there. You can do the same exercise for some of the top WR's, so it isn't just a thing for RB's.
Unless there's motivation to make it that way...
The average play league wide that season went for 5.6 yards.
Barkley had nearly 50% of the touches on offense that season. It's no surprise then that the offense wasn't particularly good (23.1 PPG).
I'll preference this comment by saying I would have preferred NOT drafting Saquon Barkley, and would have much rather taken Quenton Nelson (with a trade down), or at #2 if need be.
That said, it is nearly impossible to evaluate the "true value" of Saquon Barkley in his rookie year because the Giants roster from 1 - 53 sucked as bad as sucking gets in the NFL.
In other words, Saquon Barkely was an unusual talent on a roster where that talent was not going to really translate into wins.
Had Barkely found himself behind a top tier offensive line (not to mention a balls to the floor defense that kept giving the ball right back to the offense) and I will say straight out that Saquon Barkley would have put up statistics that would have shattered records.
Shattered. And probably a legit shot at the Super Bowl.
Because he didn't produce. And the same excuses were made. Oh that Barkley, he's the greatest, it's that Penn State offensive line that's no good.
Blah blah blah. Excuses are easy. The truly great ones don't need them.
Then again, all comes to DJ.
Then again, all comes to DJ.
I hope we don't see that guy again. If we do the offense is going to stink again.
I want to see Golladay set a record for targets, and Jones run the ball 8-12 times a game. And use Barkley as a receiver.
Because he didn't produce. And the same excuses were made. Oh that Barkley, he's the greatest, it's that Penn State offensive line that's no good.
Blah blah blah. Excuses are easy. The truly great ones don't need them.
It almost sounds like you're blaming Saquon Barkley for the ineptitude of an entire Giants squad led by a terrible Head Coach. No one player was going to make that miserable 2018 team into a winner.
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If '18 Saquon shows up this fall, man...I'm excited.
Then again, all comes to DJ.
I hope we don't see that guy again. If we do the offense is going to stink again.
I want to see Golladay set a record for targets, and Jones run the ball 8-12 times a game. And use Barkley as a receiver.
Huh?? I've never seen 2,000 yards from scrimmage shit upon so much that it is actually spun into being something bad.
Not to mention that the Barkley being referred to above is the return to the dynamic game-breaking player, not a literal translation of his stats
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In comment 15203358 RomanWH said:
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was taken #8 overall and has produced at a very high level for the Panthers. Signed a 4 yr extension with them last year. He did have an injury that cut his season short, though.
McCaffrey had an enormous season in 2019. They scored 340 points and went 5-11. He missed most of 2020, they scored 350 points and went 5-11.
Like Barkley's big 2018, McCaffrey's big 2019 didn't have much effect.
I'm not sure what the correlation is there. You can do the same exercise for some of the top WR's, so it isn't just a thing for RB's.
Unless there's motivation to make it that way...
Well, it's largely because CMac is the center of the offense.
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In comment 15203412 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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If '18 Saquon shows up this fall, man...I'm excited.
Then again, all comes to DJ.
I hope we don't see that guy again. If we do the offense is going to stink again.
I want to see Golladay set a record for targets, and Jones run the ball 8-12 times a game. And use Barkley as a receiver.
Huh?? I've never seen 2,000 yards from scrimmage shit upon so much that it is actually spun into being something bad.
Not to mention that the Barkley being referred to above is the return to the dynamic game-breaking player, not a literal translation of his stats
When it takes 382 plays to get those 2000 yards is it really that great?
2018: 354/1650/4.7/13TDs/71FDs (24th YPG)
2019: 362/1685/4.7/11TDs/89 FDs (19th YPG)
2020: 399/1768/4.4/13TDs/91 FDs (19th YPG)
I’m ambivalent on Barkley — but I think it’s fair to expect an above average run game when you commit resources there and the management believes it’s a among the three most important facets of the game.
Heck, using the logic some of you guys do, if the giants traded for DeAndre Hopkins and got the same amount of production and missed the playoffs, you'd be ripping the ROI.
Getting great production out of a Bengals WR hasn't paid much dividends, right?
So we want Barkley to do good so we can trade him but if that happens it means we will suck?
Haha, alrighty.
So we want Barkley to do good so we can trade him but if that happens it means we will suck?
Haha, alrighty.
They always attract you, don't they?
I'm not trying to give you shit. I just don't know why criticism of Barkley bothers you so much.
It hasn't worked out with him. I don't know what to tell you.
So we want Barkley to do good so we can trade him but if that happens it means we will suck?
Haha, alrighty.
Look, the sport has evolved and a key consequence of that is the RB position. Yet, our so called football "experts" are stuck in 1935 with their strategies on how to win football games...
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I’m learning a lot, haven’t read any of this before.
I'm not trying to give you shit. I just don't know why criticism of Barkley bothers you so much.
It hasn't worked out with him. I don't know what to tell you.
Mainly because this argument could be used for any productive player on a bad team, but very rarely is.
Take any 1st rounder who doesn't have team success and you can spout the same crap. When Deshaun Watson plays on a bad team, his stats are continually referenced positively. When McCaffery and Barkley do it - it is because they aren't impactful and their stats are actually spun to be a negative.
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I’m learning a lot, haven’t read any of this before.
I'm not trying to give you shit. I just don't know why criticism of Barkley bothers you so much.
It hasn't worked out with him. I don't know what to tell you.
It doesn’t. I just roll my eyes at how far you go. You basically said it’s impossible to win with him. I can’t tell if you want him to fail to be right or if you actually want him to come back 100% and get back to scoring TDs.
Also I bet Judge wants to run, stop the run and rush the passer too. Treating GM quotes like some sort of holy grail is strange. He didn’t have a top tier QB when he said it, if we did I bet the quote would be different. Kinda doesn’t mean anything.
I've already been right about it being a bad pick. That horse is out of the barn.
The fact is though, he got hurt very early last season. The team started to build an identity under Judge without him. He hasn’t played much at all under Judge. So many resources have gone to Golladay, Rudolph and most likely another WR in the first round (I’m guessing Smith if available) - it’s just easy to forget about Saquon.
I hope he has a very strong season next year as a multi dimensional player which includes a lot of catches in the backfield and running in space.
He doesn’t pick up the tough yards. He’s not good in short yardage. He’s not good in goal line situations. He can’t block. He’s not great between the tackles.
This is simply putting aside all of the other valid talking points that have been discussed ad nauseum and looking at the player.
In a sense I feel like Engram (who has sucked here) and Barkley are similar. Both seem like they would have a better chance at realizing their potential in different style offense with a different supporting cast.
Way too many drive killing plays the result in 0 to negative yards. He was the league leader in these types of plays in 2018. He was near the bottom of the league in the stat that measures these plays on a percentage basis.
Barkley is electric, he breaks off wildly exciting plays that go for big yards. But far too many bad plays mixed in and that lowers the overall efficiency of the offense resulting in fewer total points.
In short, a guy can gain over 2000 yards from scrimmage, and still be a drag on the team. Looking at total yards and not how he got there is a very flawed approach.
- He’s missed 1/3 of his games and was less effective in many others
- The run game has not been better than average in any year
- The offense has not been better than average in any year
- He’s not a terribly efficient player in the pass game
He’s now going into year 4, off an ACL tear. He’s dead smack in what should be his prime, and statistically there’s a good chance he’s halfway through his career. And the Giants have been terrible every year.
For it to have been a good pick, you’d like the Giants to at least have a few years with a good run game when he’s on the roster, no?
It's not because Barkley's a terrible player...he's not touched by the hand of God, but he's not in the Thomas Lewis/Cedric Jones category either. The tragedy was how the front office failed to understand how that draft was the time to initiate the complete rebuild: new GM, new coach, new QB.
Instead they opted to "load up for another run with Eli". Again.
And the consequences of that absolutely have been tragic.
Barkley as the centerpiece of a Manning renaissance was ridiculous. In the context of keeping Manning and the wasted other moves, bad outcome. I do think there are other scenarios where Barkley is worth the risk. Trading back into the first round and picking a QB for instance.
Remaining at #2 Barkley the player was an acceptable pick. on the field healthy he was 1 of the 10 best offensive players in football from day 1 regardless of position designation. Of the non-QB's Quentin Nelson would have been an acceptable pick too. Or Bradley Chubb. Several others as it turned as well but most of those players are known with the fortune of hindsight (Jaire Alexander, Lamar Jackson, Darius Leonard, etc).
The ACL was obviously extremely unfortunate and the primary impediment to ROI on the pick - but any player can tear an ACL. Most of them are non-contact injuries after all. This wasn't an overuse injury because he plays RB. Bradley Chubb tore his ACL in year 2 and he isn't a RB. Sometimes you can make a solid first round pick and just get bad luck. Like Hakeem Nicks. And Kenny Phillips. And JPP.
It's not because Barkley's a terrible player...he's not touched by the hand of God, but he's not in the Thomas Lewis/Cedric Jones category either. The tragedy was how the front office failed to understand how that draft was the time to initiate the complete rebuild: new GM, new coach, new QB.
Instead they opted to "load up for another run with Eli". Again.
And the consequences of that absolutely have been tragic.
I respectfully disagree.
Of all the lousy decisions this franchise has made since its last Super Bowl victory, selecting Saquon Barkley at #2 was not one of them. Far and away #1 was the failure to assemble a decent offensive line. #2 was striking out far too many times on numerous Draft choices.
I get your point about Eli, but management could have jettisoned him, torn down the teamand STILL draft Saquon Barkley. And I'm saying that even though I much preferred Quenton Nelson.
Saquon Barkley is not the problem. Having bottom-tier NFL personnel is! Hopefully, this franchise is now turning the corner.
He doesn’t pick up the tough yards. He’s not good in short yardage. He’s not good in goal line situations. He can’t block. He’s not great between the tackles.
This is simply putting aside all of the other valid talking points that have been discussed ad nauseum and looking at the player.
In a sense I feel like Engram (who has sucked here) and Barkley are similar. Both seem like they would have a better chance at realizing their potential in different style offense with a different supporting cast.
While I agree with some of your points, what I think is missing from your Saquon Barkley narrative is the stone-cold fact that the Giants offensive line allowed defenders to get in his grill as soon as he got the hand-off. That happened way too often. Way.
Here is the same data for the wide receiver position:
1979 - 1985: 2.6**
1986 - 1992: 3.0
1993 - 1999: 3.6
2000 - 2006: 4.4
2007 - 2013: 3.3
2014 - 2020: 4.0
**To be read: There was an average of 2.6 wide receivers taken per Draft Year in Round One for the 7-Year period 1979 - 1985.
Not surprisingly, the data are more or less the inverse of the RB data. That is, over time, more WRs have been selected in the first round.
The caveat is that -- unlike the RB position which shows an almost straight line decline over time -- the increase of WRs peaked in the years 2000 - 2006, with an average of 4.4 WRs taken in Round One.
One other note -- the NFL rules to allow offensive lineman to open their hands and extend their arms, as well as the prohibition of hitting a WR beyond 5 yards were implemented at the beginning of the 1978 season. That's one season before the data set above.
My best guess is that it took the NFL a few years to appreciate how these rule changes opened up the passing game.
[quote]
I've already been right about it being a bad pick. That horse is out of the barn. /quote]
Up to now.
I've already been right about it being a bad pick. That horse is out of the barn.
The horse has been dead and beaten to a pulp daily.
And is yet another in a string of posts dealing in the past claiming a point has been confirmed true when it hasn't.
Who lifted his team -- with a dismal roster like the 2018/19 NYG -- to playoff glory?
Who lifted his team -- with a dismal roster like the 2018/19 NYG -- to playoff glory?
The NY Giants were 3-13 in 2017, and then won 5 games and then 4 games over the next two seasons. Barely a blip of improvement.
So not sure playoff glory is the reasonable target for this comp.
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Who lifted his team -- with a dismal roster like the 2018/19 NYG -- to playoff glory?
The NY Giants were 3-13 in 2017, and then won 5 games and then 4 games over the next two seasons. Barely a blip of improvement.
So not sure playoff glory is the reasonable target for this comp.
Posters on this thread said the Giants did shit with Saquon Barkley in the starting line-up, and all his gaudy stats in his rookie year weren't really impressive. Bottom line, it was either implied or sorta made explicit that Barkley didn't do much for the team record-wise.
And, thus, my question: What single player in the history of the NFL was able to take a talentless team (like the 2018/2019 Giants) and make them winners.
I'm not aware of any.
And the abuse that Saquon Barkley has taken on this thread is unwarranted, and I am saying that as a crazy Draftnick (for over half a century) who did not want to draft Saquon Barkley in the 2-hole.
Who lifted his team -- with a dismal roster like the 2018/19 NYG -- to playoff glory?
You don't need to be a Super Star. Look at what RGIII did to the Redskins as a rookie.
The question is what else could the Giants have done with that #2 pick to improve the team at a better clip than a running back, albeit a very good one.
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equally dumb drafting Elliot at 4th overall two years earlier in 2016?
What have they won with him? Stanley or Ramsey would have helped the Cowboys more
they have had one of the best offenses in football since that pick. Does that count?
You realize not every QB is Peyton Manning right? And actually like 99.999999% never come anywhere close to him? Or do you think they'd have gone 12-4 in 2018 if they'd just picked Sam Darnold?
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In comment 15203329 Trainmaster said:
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equally dumb drafting Elliot at 4th overall two years earlier in 2016?
What have they won with him? Stanley or Ramsey would have helped the Cowboys more
they have had one of the best offenses in football since that pick. Does that count?
They were running the ball even with a corpse of Alfred Morris at RB. That OL could have opened up holes for anybody if you had Ronnie Stanley opposite Tyron Smith. Not to mention Jalen Ramsey would have bolstered the defense that held them back.
And the alternative of Sam Darnold doesn't fit either as the Giants were committed to Eli Manning.
Who lifted his team -- with a dismal roster like the 2018/19 NYG -- to playoff glory?
Maybe Andrew Luck? John Elway?
Round One.
You won me over simply by recognizing that "data" is a plural word (though I am almost always guilty of treating it as a singular myself).
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Who lifted his team -- with a dismal roster like the 2018/19 NYG -- to playoff glory?
You don't need to be a Super Star. Look at what RGIII did to the Redskins as a rookie.
Let me try a different tack.
The criticism of Saquon Barkley on this thread has been over-the-top. And more than one poster IMO has confounded his sheer talent with the "inappropriateness" of taking a Running Back with the second overall pick in the Draft.
Saquon Barkley cannot be blamed for being selected #2. And his first year performance behind the worst offensive line in the NFL should be lauded. And that he should be blamed for failing to lift a talentless, Pat Shurmur-led team to glory is a real head-scratcher.
Let me try a different tack.
The criticism of Saquon Barkley on this thread has been over-the-top. And more than one poster IMO has confounded his sheer talent with the "inappropriateness" of taking a Running Back with the second overall pick in the Draft.
Saquon Barkley cannot be blamed for being selected #2. And his first year performance behind the worst offensive line in the NFL should be lauded. And that he should be blamed for failing to lift a talentless, Pat Shurmur-led team to glory is a real head-scratcher.
You need to tack again because the criticism of the SB selection is more of an indictment of our dinosaur GM than SB the player.
2017 - 31st ranked offense
2018 - 16th ranked offense
Barkley had no impact? The team rushed for almost a full yard per carry more in 2018 and more than doubled its rushing TD's from 2017.
You want to say the team wasn't ready and we shouldn't have gone for it with Eli - completely fine, I can get behind that. But saying Barkley didn't move the needle in 2018 is ridiculous. Even in 2019 playing injured he kept the offense afloat.
Maybe you guys want some more "hard yards" but I want HR's. And I'd like to also block well enough so those negative yardage plays are kept to a minimum.
Exactly!! What did Peyton do his rookie year??
Oh yeah.
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In comment 15203358 RomanWH said:
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was taken #8 overall and has produced at a very high level for the Panthers. Signed a 4 yr extension with them last year. He did have an injury that cut his season short, though.
McCaffrey had an enormous season in 2019. They scored 340 points and went 5-11. He missed most of 2020, they scored 350 points and went 5-11.
Like Barkley's big 2018, McCaffrey's big 2019 didn't have much effect.
I'm not sure what the correlation is there. You can do the same exercise for some of the top WR's, so it isn't just a thing for RB's.
Unless there's motivation to make it that way...
I think you can probably do it for any individual player, and you're making a very valid point, IMO. All football players, regardless of position (including QBs), are products of the players that surround them. I think there's probably a legitimate point to be made about the inefficiency of funneling your offense through your RB, but I'm not entirely convinced that the correlation implies the proper causation.
The argument about the marginal value of any RB may indeed get overused to knock the Barkley pick (in particular, or RB importance in general) and that's unfair, IMO - to some degree. Barkley is absolutely one of the most talented players in the league and was without question one of the most talented players (if not THE most talented player) in the 2018 draft, so I think it's foolish when fans act like DG picking SB was indefensible (and I've been guilty of this numerous times myself).
That said, I think it's also fair to say that even if picking SB was justifiable, it might also still have been the wrong choice at the wrong time for the Giants. It has come to be emblematic of the front office denying the reality that they were due for a complete rebuild coming off of 2017, and trying to squeeze more magical run out of #10 instead.
That error in overall strategy delayed the rebuild by a full year, even by DG's own admission - I think most fans do agree on that. And the frustration of waiting for this rebuild to bear fruit is leading to a lot of impatience among fans. The Barkley pick sort of embodies the larger flaw of the front office's thinking throughout the 2018 offseason, which is why I think it has become such a hot-button topic ever since.
This is all a long way of saying that I do think Barkley was a deserving pick at #2 based on talent, but I wish that the Giants had just better positioned themselves to actually take advantage of SB's most affordable years (which, for RBs, tend to coincide with their prime years) and been more honest with themselves about the state of the team after 2017. DG wound up flipping some players for picks during the 2018 season; could he have done so before the 2018 draft instead and started loading up the OL pipeline more at that time?
It's unfair that SB has become the poster boy for DG (and very likely, possibly even more so, Mara) choosing sentiment over cold-blooded strategy in 2018 (and if we're being honest with ourselves, we need to acknowledge that sentiment over strategy is always going to be part and parcel of being a Giants fan). And I also think it's silly to ignore that some of the risks of taking a RB with such a high draft pick - they tend to suffer injuries at a higher rate than other positions, they are very dependent on the production of the OL and need a genuine receiving threat alongside them to keep the defense honest, etc. - have come home to roost for the Giants with Barkley.
Barkley will continue to be the subject of a very fierce debate until the Giants start winning again, and if he's a part of it, we'll be able to celebrate that pick in unison like any fanbase should be able to do about the #2 overall pick in the draft.
No one is blaming Barkley. That's the point.
No one is saying these last three years are his fault. He was just the wrong pick at the time - symptomatic of a front office that had no idea about the state of the roster.
I completely agree that the timing was bad. That was the time to acknowledge the need to blow it all up (starting with Eli) and do one of two things:
1. Draft a quarterback at #2
2. Trade down and accumulate picks to create the foundation of the rebuild (and still draft a QB)
Instead they tried for one more run with Eli, and we're 15-33 since. It was the worst possible option.
And the last RB to win the SB MVP was Terrell Davis in 1998.
It's just a position that doesn't help you win like the good old days.
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Peyton Manning.
Exactly!! What did Peyton do his rookie year??
Oh yeah.
Got them in a nice place to draft Edgerrin James.
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In comment 15203443 UConn4523 said:
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I’m learning a lot, haven’t read any of this before.
I'm not trying to give you shit. I just don't know why criticism of Barkley bothers you so much.
It hasn't worked out with him. I don't know what to tell you.
It doesn’t. I just roll my eyes at how far you go. You basically said it’s impossible to win with him. I can’t tell if you want him to fail to be right or if you actually want him to come back 100% and get back to scoring TDs.
Also I bet Judge wants to run, stop the run and rush the passer too. Treating GM quotes like some sort of holy grail is strange. He didn’t have a top tier QB when he said it, if we did I bet the quote would be different. Kinda doesn’t mean anything.
This is going to sound like a semantic argument, but I don't mean it that way...
Isn't there a difference between winning WITH a particular player and winning BECAUSE of a particular player?
It's obvious by now that Barkley cannot single-handedly take a garbage team and make it good. And I think that does validate the point that no individual player can do that, but also gives some validity that RBs in general can't do that at all - they just rely on too much around them to maximize their value, so if you don't have a decent OL, it really doesn't matter how good your RB is.
Barkley has already proven that he can have a great season while the Giants simultaneously have a bad season. No one has to root against Barkley to prove the point that RB success just isn't especially tied to team success. But that doesn't eliminate the advantage that a great RB can give an otherwise strong team.
Both things can be true: a great RB on a shitty team is a massive waste of talent and resources, and a great RB on a strong team can be a huge weapon that can help make them a contender.
We've just been a shitty team through Barkley's career to date.
And the last RB to win the SB MVP was Terrell Davis in 1998.
It's just a position that doesn't help you win like the good old days.
LOL. Did you really just reference this?? If you really want to go down that road. Look at the history. There has never been a WR to win the AP MVP. Actually outside of LT, Mark Mosely and Alan Page, EVERY MVP has been a QB or a RB.
If you want to spout some happy horseshit about the "good ole days", at least have some basis of context. At this point, I think you are purposely being dense.
However, even I agree that Barkley has some rare natural gifts. And I agree with the sentiment in general that Barkley himself isn't the problem. n I also beleive that he isn't the solution either.
As far as the FO is concerned, the Barkley pick should not be looked at as just Barkley. You have to look at the opportunity cost. The @2 pick in the draft is worth 2600 draft points. That translates into about 5 picks between 30 and 50 for the equivalent number of points. FIVE high second rounders that should project as starts, plus our own makes 6. For a team with holes everywhere being able to fill multiple spots from one pick is the way you build a solid team without putting yourself behind the cap by signing too many FA.
The failure to capitalize on that opportunity is what has led to 3 more years of inept football, and this year's spending spree (which I hope works, but I have concerns that it turns into 2016 all over again).
Barkley is just one component in the larger construction of the offense that has not gone well. This is my chief criticism.
It's more nuanced than 2018 > 2017, therefore Barkley was a success. You had the Beckham injuries, the Eli controversy, and the staff change. The wheels fell off in 2017.
The primary question always should be: is management using all the resources at their disposal efficiently, to build and an offense that can compete for a championship?
Going into year 4, coming off an ACL tear, and statistically entering the back half of his premium years, the window for Barkley as a premium player on a competitive team is narrow.
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In comment 15203365 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15203358 RomanWH said:
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was taken #8 overall and has produced at a very high level for the Panthers. Signed a 4 yr extension with them last year. He did have an injury that cut his season short, though.
McCaffrey had an enormous season in 2019. They scored 340 points and went 5-11. He missed most of 2020, they scored 350 points and went 5-11.
Like Barkley's big 2018, McCaffrey's big 2019 didn't have much effect.
I'm not sure what the correlation is there. You can do the same exercise for some of the top WR's, so it isn't just a thing for RB's.
Unless there's motivation to make it that way...
That said, I think it's also fair to say that even if picking SB was justifiable, it might also still have been the wrong choice at the wrong time for the Giants. It has come to be emblematic of the front office denying the reality that they were due for a complete rebuild coming off of 2017, and trying to squeeze more magical run out of #10 instead.
I agree with that point very much. Barkley was the pick because of his outstanding potential, and he lived up to that his rookie season. But the risks of taking a RB are the longevity and if you can truly build around one. I still think the Giants fortunes in the next two years will revolve around how Jones and Barkley do.
But I'm torn on the rebuild aspect of improvement. Delaying the rebuild is a valid take, but when I've seen names tossed around like Chubb and Nelson as options to Barkley, I'm not sure we're a better team now with either of them. I'm pretty sure we aren't with Darnold or Rosen.
So while the rebuild was delayed or even botched, I'm not sure the most popular alternatives would have us significantly improved from where we are now. Moving on from Eli a year early could have left us with just as many questions at QB as exist now.
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since 2012 with AP. And he only won it because he broke 2K yards. Manning or Rodgers had a better claim.
And the last RB to win the SB MVP was Terrell Davis in 1998.
It's just a position that doesn't help you win like the good old days.
LOL. Did you really just reference this?? If you really want to go down that road. Look at the history. There has never been a WR to win the AP MVP. Actually outside of LT, Mark Mosely and Alan Page, EVERY MVP has been a QB or a RB.
If you want to spout some happy horseshit about the "good ole days", at least have some basis of context. At this point, I think you are purposely being dense.
But that's the point - it's no longer consider an MVP position. While once a glamour position in the NFL, it's a position that is no longer critical to build around for success. Adapt or die.
Unfortunately, you continue to sound like your guy, Ole Dave on this topic.
We started the era with the delusion of the Eli Manning Revenge Tour, and are ending it with the delusion that Daniel Jones will be a great NFL quarterback.
The timing and resource allocation have been all wrong.
You are using a metric where only two positions are dominant, QB and RB. And still to this day, there have only been three players who weren't those positions selected as the MVP. It isn't making the point you think it is.
Exactly how does that show the decline of the RB? QB is the marquee position. Blount could have been the SB MVP, but it went to Brady. It's the way it is.
And putting that aside, you still need good players and the right pieces in place to win. Knowing QB's win MVP's don't mean jackshit if you select Josh Rosen in the draft.
We started the era with the delusion of the Eli Manning Revenge Tour, and are ending it with the delusion that Daniel Jones will be a great NFL quarterback.
The timing and resource allocation have been all wrong.
And again - you are claiming the Daniel Jones Era has been decided.
The Giants needed a better decision there.
Hopefully Barkley recovers well, re-establishes his game and the Giants learned from it.
You are using a metric where only two positions are dominant, QB and RB. And still to this day, there have only been three players who weren't those positions selected as the MVP. It isn't making the point you think it is.
Exactly how does that show the decline of the RB? QB is the marquee position. Blount could have been the SB MVP, but it went to Brady. It's the way it is.
And putting that aside, you still need good players and the right pieces in place to win. Knowing QB's win MVP's don't mean jackshit if you select Josh Rosen in the draft.
Fair enough.
Let me ask you this - would you rather have a great RB like Barkley or a QB who can also run? Which player do you think impacts today's game more?
Hopefully that's what we have now.
A strictly running QB hasn't led to sustained success.
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Doesn’t even fit the type of gritty, hard nosed vision the coach and GM have for the organization.
He doesn’t pick up the tough yards. He’s not good in short yardage. He’s not good in goal line situations. He can’t block. He’s not great between the tackles.
This is simply putting aside all of the other valid talking points that have been discussed ad nauseum and looking at the player.
In a sense I feel like Engram (who has sucked here) and Barkley are similar. Both seem like they would have a better chance at realizing their potential in different style offense with a different supporting cast.
While I agree with some of your points, what I think is missing from your Saquon Barkley narrative is the stone-cold fact that the Giants offensive line allowed defenders to get in his grill as soon as he got the hand-off. That happened way too often. Way.
That’s a valid point, but the 10 carries 20 yard games didn’t just start happening in the pros. He had some games like that in college.
He is who he is (or was). A guy who’s a threat to take it to the house but has some serious flaws in his game.
-he was a dynamic player with big play ability (and hopefully still is)........
-he did not represent a great pick given other needs and relative draft value of backs........not some disaster of a pick but not a great pick either......
-jury is still out on him-his spectacular plays are great, but his blocking and grinding out tough yards and taking what he can get is questionable.....
-he was a very good player in 2018, but his production was largely a function of overemphasis and hopefully the Giants figure out how to use him differently and not make him so central in their offense.....
-not his fault the Giants are bad so hard to say what his real impact will be until the team improves. Jury is still out.
-he was a dynamic player with big play ability (and hopefully still is)........
-he did not represent a great pick given other needs and relative draft value of backs........not some disaster of a pick but not a great pick either......
-jury is still out on him-his spectacular plays are great, but his blocking and grinding out tough yards and taking what he can get is questionable.....
-he was a very good player in 2018, but his production was largely a function of overemphasis and hopefully the Giants figure out how to use him differently and not make him so central in their offense.....
-not his fault the Giants are bad so hard to say what his real impact will be until the team improves. Jury is still out.
Well played, Sir!
-he was a dynamic player with big play ability (and hopefully still is)........
-he did not represent a great pick given other needs and relative draft value of backs........not some disaster of a pick but not a great pick either......
-jury is still out on him-his spectacular plays are great, but his blocking and grinding out tough yards and taking what he can get is questionable.....
-he was a very good player in 2018, but his production was largely a function of overemphasis and hopefully the Giants figure out how to use him differently and not make him so central in their offense.....
-not his fault the Giants are bad so hard to say what his real impact will be until the team improves. Jury is still out.
Well played, Sir!
It's not because Barkley's a terrible player...he's not touched by the hand of God, but he's not in the Thomas Lewis/Cedric Jones category either. The tragedy was how the front office failed to understand how that draft was the time to initiate the complete rebuild: new GM, new coach, new QB.
Instead they opted to "load up for another run with Eli". Again.
And the consequences of that absolutely have been tragic.
I get it though. I can imagine my team, I am Wellington, I live through what Eli has meant to me. He never missed a game. Amazing Superbowls. I reward that and DO NOT GIVE A SECOND FUCKING THOUGHT TO ANYONE"S LITTLE WHINES. I own my own business.
Loyalty means everything to me and Eli left every fucking ounce of his talent and more on the field for all of us. He bled for us. He kept getting up San Francisco. Dimes to Manningham, a pass that took forever to land to Burress.
It was a dumb football move. You are right about all of that,
It was the right "human" move.
I can live with that.
He gave Eli one more shot, It failed and we had a losing record longer than we should have.
It's fucking done.
Why the fuck are we still whining about it?
And spare me with the human move garbage. Eli left the NFL the highest paid player in the history of the league. It wouldn't have been a tragedy if he'd finished his career elsewhere.
Actually, the tragedy was that the organization destroyed the second half of his career. Why he wanted to stay here after 2017 I don't know.
The people who want to stop talking about the decisions made in 2018 are the ones who thought they’d work out.
The people who want to stop talking about the decisions made in 2018 are the ones who thought they’d work out.
Exactly. They're also the ones that say draft picks need time to develop, and shouldn't be assessed for two or three years after they were picked.
Well here we are.
The Giants had a pretty crazy offseason so far, barely any discussion on it outside of the threads dedicated to each individual signing. Just seems strange but I guess that's just me.