He's certainly not a TE in the NFL mold. He's a (much?) better Evan Engram. Now, if you want to tell me he's a WR fine. But you better be right because if he isn't you've got a guy without a position and that been proven to be a big problem.
There's talk that NYG really likes Pitts.. However, I don't believe he gets to 11. There are a few other teams in the top 10 that have their eye on him as well.
No. He's a great talent and, over the long run, is a great need pick.
He's certainly not a TE in the NFL mold. He's a (much?) better Evan Engram. Now, if you want to tell me he's a WR fine. But you better be right because if he isn't you've got a guy without a position and that been proven to be a big problem.
NFL TE's no longer have the same mold that you are referring to.
Is Evan Engram's problem that he is a guy without a position, or that he isn't very consistent period? His weaknesses would not look much different even if he was moved to WR.
Thats at least half the equation with these questions. There are guys I like more but he's insanely talented so I wouldnt be upset. One of the things Ive been reading/watching lately is clips of his blocking; its not the trainwreck some will tell you. Room for improvement sure but the effort is there and its not unrealistic to expect that part of his game to improve with a pro coaching and strength/conditioning.
I have no issue with the pick or the player. A guy that regularly beats CB's in the SEC and can be used as a receiver as well as a TE. Gives you flexibility on offense. He isnt Evan Engram although most people will continue to use that as a reason not to take Pitts.
Kittle 6'4 249
Pitts is 6'6 and 240. You think he isnt going to put on ten more pounds once he gets into an NFL training program and diet?
No issue taking Pitts whatsoever. The Giants in the red zone with a 6'6 Pitts, 6'6 Rudolph, 6'4 Golladay..
and is one of the most athletic players in this draft. But I, like one of the other posters in this thread, am confused in how he is meaningfully different from Engram with regards to the type of player he is.
Most scouting reports say he isn't a very good blocker, but all allude to him being able to run routes like a WR. This makes me genuinely curious why he doesn't just play WR in the NFL if drafted for certain teams? I get that playing him at TE creates mismatches, and that might make sense for some teams who have schemes that don't totally rely on having decent blocking from the TE position, but I'm surprised so many Giants fans are on board with him after seeing what it's like to have a TE who can't really block well at all.
I am not much of a draftnik so these are genuine questions, not trying to be snarky at all. I'd love someone with more draft knowledge to fill in this gap for me.
I worry about him being just a slightly better EE (can't say MUCH better until he plays a down of Pro Ball). Then we move EE and we essentially are back to where we are right now.
but I warmed up to it and now after seeing our FA signings I think he's be a great fit.
No idea why anyone is comparing him to Engram. Pitts is much bigger, attacks the ball better, and by all accounts has better hands. Pitts also had 12 TDs on 43 catches in 2020 - Engram had 15 in his career on 162 catches.
Line him up on the field and he's a mismatch for anyone in front of him. Too big for DBs and too fast for LBs. Put him in the hands of Reid, Shanahan, Payton, or McVay and they'll turn him in to an All-Pro. Position is becoming less relevant in today's NFL. If you can do your job better than the next player, you get on the field and take his snaps.
RE: I know that Pitts is universally regarded as a top prospect
and is one of the most athletic players in this draft. But I, like one of the other posters in this thread, am confused in how he is meaningfully different from Engram with regards to the type of player he is.
Most scouting reports say he isn't a very good blocker, but all allude to him being able to run routes like a WR. This makes me genuinely curious why he doesn't just play WR in the NFL if drafted for certain teams? I get that playing him at TE creates mismatches, and that might make sense for some teams who have schemes that don't totally rely on having decent blocking from the TE position, but I'm surprised so many Giants fans are on board with him after seeing what it's like to have a TE who can't really block well at all.
I am not much of a draftnik so these are genuine questions, not trying to be snarky at all. I'd love someone with more draft knowledge to fill in this gap for me.
To try and answer your question, he's a much better blocker than Engram. He's more of a vertical threat than Engram, longer arms, more height, better route runner than Engram. And if his reported time is accurate, he's actually just as fast as Engram with much better ball skills.
In short, he's better than Engram in a lot of things and he isn't better than Engram in anything.
And yes, you can play him at WR and it's still a mismatch outside of the Ramsey, Sherman, Bradberry type corners.
he might go in the top three in the draft (aside from QBs) and is a game-changing player. He isn't a play without a position so much as player who can play multiple positions. And while blocking may not be his greatest talent, he isn't like EE as a try-hard non-blocker.
We would be very lucky to have him on the Giants. Won't likely happen.
But would be very happy with Pitts. But if drafted, I'd want a trade done prior to the pick of EE for a 3rd rounder. Best of both worlds. Massive upgrade from Engram to Pitts plus adding another pick to help fill out the roster.
RE: I know that Pitts is universally regarded as a top prospect
and is one of the most athletic players in this draft. But I, like one of the other posters in this thread, am confused in how he is meaningfully different from Engram with regards to the type of player he is.
We'd all love another Bavaro, but there is nothing wrong with the "type of player" Engram is. The problem is Engram.
Hopefully if we take him it is because we have a deal lined up to move Evan Engram. Otherwise it is way too much money to have invested in TE group (2 1st Rounders and a highly paid FA). Even when Baltimore Ravens were doing a lot of 3 TE sets and winning, one was a 3rd Rounder (Mark Andrews) and another was a UDFA. In New England Gronk was a 2nd Rounder and Aaron Hernandez was a 4th Rounder.
Not even close to a remote thrower. Dynamic ability
It is a remote thrower if he is there and they DONT take him.
If I were forced to pick a player to trade up for, it would be him. In fact, if he is there at 9 and we traded #116 to move up, I wouldnt have a problem with that. He is arguably the 2nd most talented player in the draft.
Before anyone says that trade would never happen, last year Tampa sent #14 and #117 to SF for #13 and #245.
Pitts cannot block well enough to be a traditional Giants TE. Engram failed at it and Pitts will too. If he is not a TE then he is really a tall slower WR with great hands. He will not be defended by LB's and the question is can he separate from NFL CB's ? I am not sure he can. Pass. Give me Devonta Smith every time - I think hands and separation is just what Giants need in a WR.
I literally know nothing about Pitts. Is he the type of player...
He's certainly not a TE in the NFL mold. He's a (much?) better Evan Engram. Now, if you want to tell me he's a WR fine. But you better be right because if he isn't you've got a guy without a position and that been proven to be a big problem.
NFL TE's no longer have the same mold that you are referring to.
Is Evan Engram's problem that he is a guy without a position, or that he isn't very consistent period? His weaknesses would not look much different even if he was moved to WR.
Yes, Evan Engram's problem that he is a guy without a position. He can't be lined up in any of the spots TEs line up. He can't play WR. He's a guy without a position. Yes, he's inconsistent as well. But that's only one of his multiple problems. I think Pitts will be better but similar. Maybe I'm wrong.
I hope we can relive some of these Pitts comments in 5 years
Evan Engram's problem that he is a guy without a position.
Engram's problem isn't that he doesn't have a position, it's that he isn't very good at his position. You can't be a pass-catching TE if you can't catch. It's kind of like being a blocking TE who can't block. The problem isn't the position, it's the player.
Pitts cannot block well enough to be a traditional Giants TE. Engram failed at it and Pitts will too. If he is not a TE then he is really a tall slower WR with great hands. He will not be defended by LB's and the question is can he separate from NFL CB's ? I am not sure he can. Pass. Give me Devonta Smith every time - I think hands and separation is just what Giants need in a WR.
Ramses Barden? Based on what, their height? An Engram comp is lazy and inaccurate but Barden? Thats just asinine.
RE: I hope we can relive some of these Pitts comments in 5 years
Zeke you've been talking up Pitts as early as anyone. I am good with any of the big 4 pass catchers - its exciting to imagine the Red Zone efficiency this team could have with him, Golladay, Saquon, and hell throw in Rudolph and Engram for good measure.
Was Jason Whitten a remote thrower for Cowboy fans ???
If Pitts comes close to Jason's career, he was certainly worth the pick, no matter where it is
A) Witten was a 3rd round pick.
B) Witten was absolutely a true TE who could be used as a receiving weapon, though not quite as dynamic as Pitts is projected to be.
The Engram comparison for Pitts is not crazy, IMO, even if we can agree that Pitts is a superior version of that same sort of player. And like Engram, I think Pitts could be a dangerous weapon if used creatively. I don't think the Giants have always been creative enough with Engram, and I worry that they also might not be as creative as they could be with someone like Pitts, at least not with Garrett in the OC chair (though it's entirely possible that JG's creativity was somewhat limited last year because of the OL early on, and by losing Barkley for the year).
To me he is the closest thing to Calvin Johnson we have seen since Calvin Johnson. You don't pass on Calvin Johnson even if you are loaded at the position.
Im not even going to pretend to know enough about any of these guys to get that worked up about a decision that is being made by people who get paid a lot of $$$ to make those decisions. I can watch all the highlights, read all the draft guides....but that doesnt mean I really KNOW anything about any of them, or really even what the coaches believe our team needs in order to be successful.
I don't think the Giants have always been creative enough with Engram, and I worry that they also might not be as creative as they could be with someone like Pitts, at least not with Garrett in the OC chair (though it's entirely possible that JG's creativity was somewhat limited last year because of the OL early on, and by losing Barkley for the year).
the idea of evan engram is a good idea. darren waller is a hell of a player. he's a fast tight end who creates mismatches and destroys defenses. kelce as well (although kelce is a better blocker obviously). aaron hernandez was a matchup nightmare who wrecked teams. there are others, but you get the point. it's a huge advantage to have a weapon like that.
the difference between those players and evan engram? evan engram SUCKS. he's not a player without a position. he's a SHIT football player.
pitts is fast and enormous (read about his wingspan today). he has terrific body control, can track the ball, and can actually catch the ball and has savy in running his routes. evan engram has NONE of these abilities. stop comparing them, they are nothing alike.
pitts is going to be wrecking this league for years
Wouldn’t be surprised if he is top 6 pick
Would love him. Match up problem galore. Maybe trade engram for. 3rd
1)pitts. TE
2)) w Davis OG
3)R Moore WR
3)q roche. ER
4) Marvin Wilson DT
Kyle Pitts TE type talents come and go throughout the years.
1st round TEs that live up to the hype are INCREDIBLY rare.
Go back and look...I'll wait.
NFL teams need to view TE like they do RB. Lots of talented guys in rd 2 and beyond - but don't waste your 1st rd pick on one...history is pretty damn clear on that.
Wouldn’t be surprised if he is top 6 pick
Would love him. Match up problem galore. Maybe trade engram for. 3rd
1)pitts. TE
2)) w Davis OG
3)R Moore WR
3)q roche. ER
4) Marvin Wilson DT
Pretty decent chance Pitts doesn't get past the Miami pick.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I really don't think he has a position
Evan Engram's problem that he is a guy without a position.
Engram's problem isn't that he doesn't have a position, it's that he isn't very good at his position. You can't be a pass-catching TE if you can't catch. It's kind of like being a blocking TE who can't block. The problem isn't the position, it's the player.
No he can't block or catch. So he's not a TE because he can't block and he's not a WR because he can't catch. So he doesn't have a position and he's not very good at the position he doesn't have.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I really don't think he has a position
Evan Engram's problem that he is a guy without a position.
Engram's problem isn't that he doesn't have a position, it's that he isn't very good at his position. You can't be a pass-catching TE if you can't catch. It's kind of like being a blocking TE who can't block. The problem isn't the position, it's the player.
No he can't block or catch. So he's not a TE because he can't block and he's not a WR because he can't catch. So he doesn't have a position and he's not very good at the position he doesn't have.
... Put him on defense and use him as a SAM or rushbacker? He doesn’t have to catch the ball, just knock it upward for one of our DBs to intercept since he’s good at that. As for being a rushbacker he’s got the speed.
No he can't block or catch. So he's not a TE because he can't block and he's not a WR because he can't catch. So he doesn't have a position and he's not very good at the position he doesn't have.
So then he isn't relevant to any discussion of Kyle Pitts. If people want to compare Pitts to other pass-catching TE's, they should use Kelce, Kittle, and Waller as examples. Those are the guys he will be better than.
Kyle Pitts TE type talents come and go throughout the years.
1st round TEs that live up to the hype are INCREDIBLY rare.
Go back and look...I'll wait.
NFL teams need to view TE like they do RB. Lots of talented guys in rd 2 and beyond - but don't waste your 1st rd pick on one...history is pretty damn clear on that.
You know each draft and prospect are independent of prior situations.
He is someone defense would have to account for because he can catch the ball unlike EE. Not a great blocker which does count against him. With our new free agent I’d be surprised if he was the pick.
But looking at both Engram's and Pitts' college highlights, can anyone point out any material differences in their ability? If anything Engram seems to possess more in the way of top-end speed. And oddly enough, he appears to make some very tough catches.
Beyond that, is there a glaring difference that my uneducated eye is missing?
Zeke you've been talking up Pitts as early as anyone. I am good with any of the big 4 pass catchers - its exciting to imagine the Red Zone efficiency this team could have with him, Golladay, Saquon, and hell throw in Rudolph and Engram for good measure.
People comparing him to past first round TE’s are so far off base it hurts. He is not a tweezer, he’s a hybrid. Which how the substation rules are now is a MASSIVE advantage. It really can’t be underscored enough. Engram has broken peoples brains around here and they aren’t even close to same player. Pitts is a legit go to player in pass game whereas Engram is a nice player to have when you can get him lost schematically for big plays ( a really good 3/4 type option in pass game)
The only reason we have a shot at him at 11 is because of the QB situation and a quirk of the teams ahead of us. He’s worth a top 5 pick.
But looking at both Engram's and Pitts' college highlights, can anyone point out any material differences in their ability? If anything Engram seems to possess more in the way of top-end speed. And oddly enough, he appears to make some very tough catches.
Beyond that, is there a glaring difference that my uneducated eye is missing?
Engram highlights
Pitts highlights
And just to make clear: this isn't an attempt to say "Look at how Engram has performed in the pros; a similar fate awaits Pitts."
Just curious to know what (if anything) the pro-Pitts camp sees that sets him apart from Engram in terms of ability/style of game-play.
Better route running, natural catcher, massive catch radius, consistent contested catches, agility, red zone threat, better feet for blocking, natural athlete (engram is pretty much only explosive in a straight line). Don’t think I missed anything.
RE: I know that Pitts is universally regarded as a top prospect
I am not much of a draftnik so these are genuine questions, not trying to be snarky at all. I'd love someone with more draft knowledge to fill in this gap for me.
I haven't seen as much of Pitts as others on this board have, but it seems to me that he is much more physical than Engram... he will break tackles and post up defenders to prevent them from breaking up the pass. He also seems to have a massive catch radius and excellent hands.
is beyond me. The Giants should run to the podium if he were on the board. I'm not a believer in BPA at all costs, I'm probably in the Slater camp come draft day but Pitts is a guy you throw that out the window for.
and has a monster year. He's a free agent next year that you're negotiating with at the top of his value. He's most likely gone in 2022 no matter how this year shakes out.
Pitts had ZERO drops this year. After watching our receivers and especially our TE...i would welcome that stat with open arms. I can’t even imagine the difference in our season if Engram had zero drops and therefore caused at least 3 less interceptions. We would definitely had been in the playoffs.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I really don't think he has a position
No he can't block or catch. So he's not a TE because he can't block and he's not a WR because he can't catch. So he doesn't have a position and he's not very good at the position he doesn't have.
So then he isn't relevant to any discussion of Kyle Pitts. If people want to compare Pitts to other pass-catching TE's, they should use Kelce, Kittle, and Waller as examples. Those are the guys he will be better than.
It is relevant because there is no indication that Pitts can block like a TE. Kelce and Kittle are excellent blockers. There is no indication that Pitts is anything like them in that regard. That makes him playing TE a problem.
But looking at both Engram's and Pitts' college highlights, can anyone point out any material differences in their ability? If anything Engram seems to possess more in the way of top-end speed. And oddly enough, he appears to make some very tough catches.
Beyond that, is there a glaring difference that my uneducated eye is missing?
Engram highlights
Pitts highlights
And just to make clear: this isn't an attempt to say "Look at how Engram has performed in the pros; a similar fate awaits Pitts."
Just curious to know what (if anything) the pro-Pitts camp sees that sets him apart from Engram in terms of ability/style of game-play.
Just based on those two videos you linked, the first thing that you notice is how much bigger and longer that Pitts is. You also see that length translate into more in-traffic catches over defenders. Engram has some nice catches in that highlight reel, but Pitts makes going over defenders to catch the ball look easy.
Considering how ball skills are Engram's biggest weakness and Pitts' biggest strength as a prospect, I don't think they're similar besides being fast TEs.
Based on his times today.....We won't even see him at 11...........
Art Stapleton @art_stapleton 42m
Pitts is so fast, he’s gonna be off the board before the Giants even turn the TV on in their war room
Jim Nagy @JimNagy_SB
Official pro-day times (on NFL scouts ⏱) for Florida TE Kyle Pitts and WR Kadarius Toney: Pitts 1st 40: 4.44/4.46🔥 Toney 1st 40: 4.41/4.44🔥
Pitts cannot block well enough to be a traditional Giants TE. Engram failed at it and Pitts will too. If he is not a TE then he is really a tall slower WR with great hands. He will not be defended by LB's and the question is can he separate from NFL CB's ? I am not sure he can. Pass. Give me Devonta Smith every time - I think hands and separation is just what Giants need in a WR.
Agreed. Don’t want Pitts.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I really don't think he has a position
Kelce and Kittle are excellent blockers. There is no indication that Pitts is anything like them in that regard.
Are you a scout? Neither am I, but I've read scouting reports that say he is a willing blocker who improved throughout the year. Is that indication enough?
He's NOT what this team needs. He can't block worth a shit. He can't get much separation. He relies on size and overpowering lesser players to make the catch. That's not going to play anywhere near as well in the NFL as it does in college.
They need OL help - probably two of them, still need another CB, still could use another ILB, still need another quality RB, could use another down field pass catching threat.
So why screw around with a guy who has a strong chance of being Evan Engram and Travis Beckum all over again.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I really don't think he has a position
Kelce and Kittle are excellent blockers. There is no indication that Pitts is anything like them in that regard.
Are you a scout? Neither am I, but I've read scouting reports that say he is a willing blocker who improved throughout the year. Is that indication enough?
Same thing was said about Engram. How did that turn out? You can't use #11 overall for a maybe without a true position.
I hate bashing EE because he's a good kid, and if it were year 2 for him instead of year 5 I'd say give him a chance. BUt after 4 years I doubt anything changes.
exceptions to every rule and every draft is independent of others...
But I'm letting every other NFL chase that unicorn. I've heard the hybrid thing so many times/the dreaded dual threat TE label...
All the scouts said the same thing about TJ Hockenson, OJ Howard, Evan Engram, David Njoku, Eric Ebron, Tyler Eifert, Vernon Davis - and the list goes.
Pitts cannot block well enough to be a traditional Giants TE. Engram failed at it and Pitts will too. If he is not a TE then he is really a tall slower WR with great hands. He will not be defended by LB's and the question is can he separate from NFL CB's ? I am not sure he can. Pass. Give me Devonta Smith every time - I think hands and separation is just what Giants need in a WR.
Agreed. Don’t want Pitts.
Its 2021, you only need Youtube to see him vs Surtain and Horn.
If he fits Judge’s plan, I am all for it. Better than Smurf WRs and
Kelce and Kittle are excellent blockers. There is no indication that Pitts is anything like them in that regard.
Are you a scout? Neither am I, but I've read scouting reports that say he is a willing blocker who improved throughout the year. Is that indication enough?
Not for me. If he can play WR then I'm all in. As a TE I think he's got limitations.
exceptions to every rule and every draft is independent of others...
But I'm letting every other NFL chase that unicorn. I've heard the hybrid thing so many times/the dreaded dual threat TE label...
All the scouts said the same thing about TJ Hockenson, OJ Howard, Evan Engram, David Njoku, Eric Ebron, Tyler Eifert, Vernon Davis - and the list goes.
Except they didn't. This guy is in a class of his own and I'll gladly eat crow if he doesn't pan out. Not sure how that even happens unless he gets some freak injury. None of those guys can do what he can on the outside. The fact he can play TE as well is a giant bonus, especially considering how substitutions rules are now. I can't not everyone here will understand that, but the NFL certainly will.
and his tape - why wouldn't this kid and his agent just label him as WR?
F the idea that he "can learn to block" or "has the skills to block" or "is a willing blocker"...he's not doing himself any favors by pretending to be a TE.
If he's the next Plax or Megtron or Mike Evans - like so many on here tout him to be - be a WR and get paid like one.
the idea of evan engram is a good idea. darren waller is a hell of a player. he's a fast tight end who creates mismatches and destroys defenses. kelce as well (although kelce is a better blocker obviously). aaron hernandez was a matchup nightmare who wrecked teams. there are others, but you get the point. it's a huge advantage to have a weapon like that.
the difference between those players and evan engram? evan engram SUCKS. he's not a player without a position. he's a SHIT football player.
pitts is fast and enormous (read about his wingspan today). he has terrific body control, can track the ball, and can actually catch the ball and has savy in running his routes. evan engram has NONE of these abilities. stop comparing them, they are nothing alike.
pitts is going to be wrecking this league for years
Wasn’t this exactly what was being said about Engram when he was drafted? Stop already. Name me a STAR TE in the last 10 years that was drafted in the first round. This would be an absolute remote thrower for me and I don’t see DG making this pick at all after bringing in Rudolph and endorsing Engram.
Better route running, natural catcher, massive catch radius, consistent contested catches, agility, red zone threat, better feet for blocking, natural athlete (engram is pretty much only explosive in a straight line). Don’t think I missed anything.
OK: thanks Zeke. Appreciate you pointing all that out.
Just based on those two videos you linked, the first thing that you notice is how much bigger and longer that Pitts is. You also see that length translate into more in-traffic catches over defenders. Engram has some nice catches in that highlight reel, but Pitts makes going over defenders to catch the ball look easy.
Considering how ball skills are Engram's biggest weakness and Pitts' biggest strength as a prospect, I don't think they're similar besides being fast TEs.
With the Free Agent signings the team has made recently the answer is NO. The Giants have put themselves in position to take the BPA @11. Their spot is early enough in the round that there will be some really good prospects available to them, especially with the expected run on QBs. The thought right now is 4-5 QBs could be taken before the Giants are up @ #11. If Pitts isn't there somebody who wan't expected to last to 11 will be.
I really wish Ojulari was also not an option, if Parsons is off the board. I just don't have any love for undersized UGA ERs with a single move. Even Floyd, who two different NYG GMs have now tried to acquire one way or another, took a few years to grow into his position at this level (and didn't do it with the team that drafted him). That shouldn't be what a guy drafted in the top half of the first round contributes. If we're loading up to be a legitimate playoff contender in 2021, our 1st round pick should be a contributor - I think Ojulari needs a redshirt year.
However I think the Kyle Rudolph signing eliminates him from being the pick because of redundancy. I think they look outside for receiver help.
He's a receiver. I'd love that kind of talent lined up wherever the formation put him.
X, Y, H or Z
If Pitts comes close to Jason's career, he was certainly worth the pick, no matter where it is
Pitts can be a red zone threat that Engram never really has been as a TE. I'd take Pitts in a heartbeat but he isn't lasting to 11....
NFL TE's no longer have the same mold that you are referring to.
Is Evan Engram's problem that he is a guy without a position, or that he isn't very consistent period? His weaknesses would not look much different even if he was moved to WR.
Kittle 6'4 249
Pitts is 6'6 and 240. You think he isnt going to put on ten more pounds once he gets into an NFL training program and diet?
No issue taking Pitts whatsoever. The Giants in the red zone with a 6'6 Pitts, 6'6 Rudolph, 6'4 Golladay..
yeah im good with that
Most scouting reports say he isn't a very good blocker, but all allude to him being able to run routes like a WR. This makes me genuinely curious why he doesn't just play WR in the NFL if drafted for certain teams? I get that playing him at TE creates mismatches, and that might make sense for some teams who have schemes that don't totally rely on having decent blocking from the TE position, but I'm surprised so many Giants fans are on board with him after seeing what it's like to have a TE who can't really block well at all.
I am not much of a draftnik so these are genuine questions, not trying to be snarky at all. I'd love someone with more draft knowledge to fill in this gap for me.
No idea why anyone is comparing him to Engram. Pitts is much bigger, attacks the ball better, and by all accounts has better hands. Pitts also had 12 TDs on 43 catches in 2020 - Engram had 15 in his career on 162 catches.
There aren't the same class of player.
Most scouting reports say he isn't a very good blocker, but all allude to him being able to run routes like a WR. This makes me genuinely curious why he doesn't just play WR in the NFL if drafted for certain teams? I get that playing him at TE creates mismatches, and that might make sense for some teams who have schemes that don't totally rely on having decent blocking from the TE position, but I'm surprised so many Giants fans are on board with him after seeing what it's like to have a TE who can't really block well at all.
I am not much of a draftnik so these are genuine questions, not trying to be snarky at all. I'd love someone with more draft knowledge to fill in this gap for me.
To try and answer your question, he's a much better blocker than Engram. He's more of a vertical threat than Engram, longer arms, more height, better route runner than Engram. And if his reported time is accurate, he's actually just as fast as Engram with much better ball skills.
In short, he's better than Engram in a lot of things and he isn't better than Engram in anything.
And yes, you can play him at WR and it's still a mismatch outside of the Ramsey, Sherman, Bradberry type corners.
We would be very lucky to have him on the Giants. Won't likely happen.
A 3-4 defense OLB was always just an OLB. But in today's game, if that player has a specific set of skills, he's now called an "Edge."
Pitts is a blue chip pass catcher. It doesn't really matter what position name they put on the front of his football card.
Hopefully if we take him it is because we have a deal lined up to move Evan Engram. Otherwise it is way too much money to have invested in TE group (2 1st Rounders and a highly paid FA). Even when Baltimore Ravens were doing a lot of 3 TE sets and winning, one was a 3rd Rounder (Mark Andrews) and another was a UDFA. In New England Gronk was a 2nd Rounder and Aaron Hernandez was a 4th Rounder.
Pitts is just what a young QB needs to have and develop with over time.
If I were forced to pick a player to trade up for, it would be him. In fact, if he is there at 9 and we traded #116 to move up, I wouldnt have a problem with that. He is arguably the 2nd most talented player in the draft.
Before anyone says that trade would never happen, last year Tampa sent #14 and #117 to SF for #13 and #245.
I guess I would be confused if they took a QB, S or OC.
But every other position? Get the best guy.
Or is he more of a mismatch player?
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He's certainly not a TE in the NFL mold. He's a (much?) better Evan Engram. Now, if you want to tell me he's a WR fine. But you better be right because if he isn't you've got a guy without a position and that been proven to be a big problem.
NFL TE's no longer have the same mold that you are referring to.
Is Evan Engram's problem that he is a guy without a position, or that he isn't very consistent period? His weaknesses would not look much different even if he was moved to WR.
Yes, Evan Engram's problem that he is a guy without a position. He can't be lined up in any of the spots TEs line up. He can't play WR. He's a guy without a position. Yes, he's inconsistent as well. But that's only one of his multiple problems. I think Pitts will be better but similar. Maybe I'm wrong.
Ramses Barden? Based on what, their height? An Engram comp is lazy and inaccurate but Barden? Thats just asinine.
Zeke you've been talking up Pitts as early as anyone. I am good with any of the big 4 pass catchers - its exciting to imagine the Red Zone efficiency this team could have with him, Golladay, Saquon, and hell throw in Rudolph and Engram for good measure.
If Pitts comes close to Jason's career, he was certainly worth the pick, no matter where it is
A) Witten was a 3rd round pick.
B) Witten was absolutely a true TE who could be used as a receiving weapon, though not quite as dynamic as Pitts is projected to be.
The Engram comparison for Pitts is not crazy, IMO, even if we can agree that Pitts is a superior version of that same sort of player. And like Engram, I think Pitts could be a dangerous weapon if used creatively. I don't think the Giants have always been creative enough with Engram, and I worry that they also might not be as creative as they could be with someone like Pitts, at least not with Garrett in the OC chair (though it's entirely possible that JG's creativity was somewhat limited last year because of the OL early on, and by losing Barkley for the year).
If frees them to unload Engram for whatever they can get for him as well.
But I don't think he's sliding that far. I imagine Atlanta is giving him a long look at #4. And smartly so...
Nevermind - ( New Window )
JFC...that would be insane.
Hopefully before ten... or Dallas might take him
the difference between those players and evan engram? evan engram SUCKS. he's not a player without a position. he's a SHIT football player.
pitts is fast and enormous (read about his wingspan today). he has terrific body control, can track the ball, and can actually catch the ball and has savy in running his routes. evan engram has NONE of these abilities. stop comparing them, they are nothing alike.
pitts is going to be wrecking this league for years
Would love him. Match up problem galore. Maybe trade engram for. 3rd
1)pitts. TE
2)) w Davis OG
3)R Moore WR
3)q roche. ER
4) Marvin Wilson DT
1st round TEs that live up to the hype are INCREDIBLY rare.
Go back and look...I'll wait.
NFL teams need to view TE like they do RB. Lots of talented guys in rd 2 and beyond - but don't waste your 1st rd pick on one...history is pretty damn clear on that.
Link - ( New Window )
Would love him. Match up problem galore. Maybe trade engram for. 3rd
1)pitts. TE
2)) w Davis OG
3)R Moore WR
3)q roche. ER
4) Marvin Wilson DT
Pretty decent chance Pitts doesn't get past the Miami pick.
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Evan Engram's problem that he is a guy without a position.
Engram's problem isn't that he doesn't have a position, it's that he isn't very good at his position. You can't be a pass-catching TE if you can't catch. It's kind of like being a blocking TE who can't block. The problem isn't the position, it's the player.
No he can't block or catch. So he's not a TE because he can't block and he's not a WR because he can't catch. So he doesn't have a position and he's not very good at the position he doesn't have.
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In comment 15203849 BillT said:
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Evan Engram's problem that he is a guy without a position.
Engram's problem isn't that he doesn't have a position, it's that he isn't very good at his position. You can't be a pass-catching TE if you can't catch. It's kind of like being a blocking TE who can't block. The problem isn't the position, it's the player.
No he can't block or catch. So he's not a TE because he can't block and he's not a WR because he can't catch. So he doesn't have a position and he's not very good at the position he doesn't have.
... Put him on defense and use him as a SAM or rushbacker? He doesn’t have to catch the ball, just knock it upward for one of our DBs to intercept since he’s good at that. As for being a rushbacker he’s got the speed.
I'm not in love with him like some people, but he's definitely not a "remote thrower" imo.
No he can't block or catch. So he's not a TE because he can't block and he's not a WR because he can't catch. So he doesn't have a position and he's not very good at the position he doesn't have.
1st round TEs that live up to the hype are INCREDIBLY rare.
Go back and look...I'll wait.
NFL teams need to view TE like they do RB. Lots of talented guys in rd 2 and beyond - but don't waste your 1st rd pick on one...history is pretty damn clear on that.
You know each draft and prospect are independent of prior situations.
Beyond that, is there a glaring difference that my uneducated eye is missing?
Engram highlights
Pitts highlights
And just to make clear: this isn't an attempt to say "Look at how Engram has performed in the pros; a similar fate awaits Pitts."
Just curious to know what (if anything) the pro-Pitts camp sees that sets him apart from Engram in terms of ability/style of game-play.
I think we will go pass rusher and take Phillips, who is apparently moving up the charts now.
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Zeke you've been talking up Pitts as early as anyone. I am good with any of the big 4 pass catchers - its exciting to imagine the Red Zone efficiency this team could have with him, Golladay, Saquon, and hell throw in Rudolph and Engram for good measure.
People comparing him to past first round TE’s are so far off base it hurts. He is not a tweezer, he’s a hybrid. Which how the substation rules are now is a MASSIVE advantage. It really can’t be underscored enough. Engram has broken peoples brains around here and they aren’t even close to same player. Pitts is a legit go to player in pass game whereas Engram is a nice player to have when you can get him lost schematically for big plays ( a really good 3/4 type option in pass game)
The only reason we have a shot at him at 11 is because of the QB situation and a quirk of the teams ahead of us. He’s worth a top 5 pick.
Beyond that, is there a glaring difference that my uneducated eye is missing?
Engram highlights
Pitts highlights
And just to make clear: this isn't an attempt to say "Look at how Engram has performed in the pros; a similar fate awaits Pitts."
Just curious to know what (if anything) the pro-Pitts camp sees that sets him apart from Engram in terms of ability/style of game-play.
Better route running, natural catcher, massive catch radius, consistent contested catches, agility, red zone threat, better feet for blocking, natural athlete (engram is pretty much only explosive in a straight line). Don’t think I missed anything.
I am not much of a draftnik so these are genuine questions, not trying to be snarky at all. I'd love someone with more draft knowledge to fill in this gap for me.
I haven't seen as much of Pitts as others on this board have, but it seems to me that he is much more physical than Engram... he will break tackles and post up defenders to prevent them from breaking up the pass. He also seems to have a massive catch radius and excellent hands.
What does Engram do well aside from run fast?
We’d be insanely lucky to somehow get this talent at #11.
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No he can't block or catch. So he's not a TE because he can't block and he's not a WR because he can't catch. So he doesn't have a position and he's not very good at the position he doesn't have.
So then he isn't relevant to any discussion of Kyle Pitts. If people want to compare Pitts to other pass-catching TE's, they should use Kelce, Kittle, and Waller as examples. Those are the guys he will be better than.
It is relevant because there is no indication that Pitts can block like a TE. Kelce and Kittle are excellent blockers. There is no indication that Pitts is anything like them in that regard. That makes him playing TE a problem.
Beyond that, is there a glaring difference that my uneducated eye is missing?
Engram highlights
Pitts highlights
And just to make clear: this isn't an attempt to say "Look at how Engram has performed in the pros; a similar fate awaits Pitts."
Just curious to know what (if anything) the pro-Pitts camp sees that sets him apart from Engram in terms of ability/style of game-play.
Just based on those two videos you linked, the first thing that you notice is how much bigger and longer that Pitts is. You also see that length translate into more in-traffic catches over defenders. Engram has some nice catches in that highlight reel, but Pitts makes going over defenders to catch the ball look easy.
Considering how ball skills are Engram's biggest weakness and Pitts' biggest strength as a prospect, I don't think they're similar besides being fast TEs.
Pitts is so fast, he’s gonna be off the board before the Giants even turn the TV on in their war room
Jim Nagy @JimNagy_SB
Official pro-day times (on NFL scouts ⏱) for Florida TE Kyle Pitts and WR Kadarius Toney: Pitts 1st 40: 4.44/4.46🔥 Toney 1st 40: 4.41/4.44🔥
Agreed. Don’t want Pitts.
He's NOT what this team needs. He can't block worth a shit. He can't get much separation. He relies on size and overpowering lesser players to make the catch. That's not going to play anywhere near as well in the NFL as it does in college.
They need OL help - probably two of them, still need another CB, still could use another ILB, still need another quality RB, could use another down field pass catching threat.
So why screw around with a guy who has a strong chance of being Evan Engram and Travis Beckum all over again.
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Kelce and Kittle are excellent blockers. There is no indication that Pitts is anything like them in that regard.
Are you a scout? Neither am I, but I've read scouting reports that say he is a willing blocker who improved throughout the year. Is that indication enough?
Same thing was said about Engram. How did that turn out? You can't use #11 overall for a maybe without a true position.
I hate bashing EE because he's a good kid, and if it were year 2 for him instead of year 5 I'd say give him a chance. BUt after 4 years I doubt anything changes.
But I'm letting every other NFL chase that unicorn. I've heard the hybrid thing so many times/the dreaded dual threat TE label...
All the scouts said the same thing about TJ Hockenson, OJ Howard, Evan Engram, David Njoku, Eric Ebron, Tyler Eifert, Vernon Davis - and the list goes.
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Pitts cannot block well enough to be a traditional Giants TE. Engram failed at it and Pitts will too. If he is not a TE then he is really a tall slower WR with great hands. He will not be defended by LB's and the question is can he separate from NFL CB's ? I am not sure he can. Pass. Give me Devonta Smith every time - I think hands and separation is just what Giants need in a WR.
Agreed. Don’t want Pitts.
Its 2021, you only need Youtube to see him vs Surtain and Horn.
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Kelce and Kittle are excellent blockers. There is no indication that Pitts is anything like them in that regard.
Are you a scout? Neither am I, but I've read scouting reports that say he is a willing blocker who improved throughout the year. Is that indication enough?
Not for me. If he can play WR then I'm all in. As a TE I think he's got limitations.
But I'm letting every other NFL chase that unicorn. I've heard the hybrid thing so many times/the dreaded dual threat TE label...
All the scouts said the same thing about TJ Hockenson, OJ Howard, Evan Engram, David Njoku, Eric Ebron, Tyler Eifert, Vernon Davis - and the list goes.
Except they didn't. This guy is in a class of his own and I'll gladly eat crow if he doesn't pan out. Not sure how that even happens unless he gets some freak injury. None of those guys can do what he can on the outside. The fact he can play TE as well is a giant bonus, especially considering how substitutions rules are now. I can't not everyone here will understand that, but the NFL certainly will.
F the idea that he "can learn to block" or "has the skills to block" or "is a willing blocker"...he's not doing himself any favors by pretending to be a TE.
If he's the next Plax or Megtron or Mike Evans - like so many on here tout him to be - be a WR and get paid like one.
if a guy from the top row drops he is glaring BPA and you need to take him. Otherwise value meeting higher need if you are picking in the same row
the difference between those players and evan engram? evan engram SUCKS. he's not a player without a position. he's a SHIT football player.
pitts is fast and enormous (read about his wingspan today). he has terrific body control, can track the ball, and can actually catch the ball and has savy in running his routes. evan engram has NONE of these abilities. stop comparing them, they are nothing alike.
pitts is going to be wrecking this league for years
Wasn’t this exactly what was being said about Engram when he was drafted? Stop already. Name me a STAR TE in the last 10 years that was drafted in the first round. This would be an absolute remote thrower for me and I don’t see DG making this pick at all after bringing in Rudolph and endorsing Engram.
OK: thanks Zeke. Appreciate you pointing all that out.
Considering how ball skills are Engram's biggest weakness and Pitts' biggest strength as a prospect, I don't think they're similar besides being fast TEs.
Thanks Osi. Much appreciated.
if a guy from the top row drops he is glaring BPA and you need to take him. Otherwise value meeting higher need if you are picking in the same row
Completely agree with this take though I would put Slater ahead of Parsons.
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next row Waddle, Smith, Parsons?, Phillips? Slater?
if a guy from the top row drops he is glaring BPA and you need to take him. Otherwise value meeting higher need if you are picking in the same row
Completely agree with this take though I would put Slater ahead of Parsons.
no issue with that just don't know enough on the character stuff with Micah.
I'd imagine the draft will go like this for us assuming Chase is gone which he will be:
Option 1 - Smith
Option 2 - Pitts
Option 3 - Phillips
Option 4 - Waddle
Option 5 - Ojulari
Option 6 - trade down
I'd imagine the draft will go like this for us assuming Chase is gone which he will be:
Option 1 - Smith
Option 2 - Pitts
Option 3 - Phillips
Option 4 - Waddle
Option 5 - Ojulari
Option 6 - trade down
I really wish Ojulari was also not an option, if Parsons is off the board. I just don't have any love for undersized UGA ERs with a single move. Even Floyd, who two different NYG GMs have now tried to acquire one way or another, took a few years to grow into his position at this level (and didn't do it with the team that drafted him). That shouldn't be what a guy drafted in the top half of the first round contributes. If we're loading up to be a legitimate playoff contender in 2021, our 1st round pick should be a contributor - I think Ojulari needs a redshirt year.