We know he is a good kid and hard worker so with that I think we can all agree his rehab is going as well as it can from a work ethic standpoint. He is a specimen and seems to have good healing "abilities". But can he commit to being a willing blocker in pass pro at times it seems like he does not want the contact and at that point the rusher has already won. Like being mentioned with Pitts and EE the want to factor of blocking can he will he improve in that regard. Next his understanding of the situation at hand not all plays will be a homerun ball. Take the hole and glow with the play and the game. Hopefully him seeing Freeman and Gallman having success being patient and taking the good yards to keep the "pitch count" on our side. Last be not least is he over the injury bug ... I know this one has no crystal ball just hopes and prayers I guess.
The main issue I see out of the ones I listed is his WILLINGNESS to block better in pass pro and his desire to pass on the grimy yards and setup the next down for a better chance at success. I hope Judge can fix that in him like TC fixed fumbling and ball security with Tiki ...
What say you all? If he can't be fixed what RBs in the later rounds or future drafts you want to take a chance on?
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Really? Maybe you can do some chest beating instead...
My money is on Jimmy Clownshoes.
He's got as many memes to use as handles.
The rest of the league liked Josh Allen enough to pick him 7th. That was the right pick. NFL GMs are paid to get picks right, not to follow the consensus.
Colin, sorry, love your work, but your argument misses the forest for the trees.
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the exact same posts and points made pro and anti Barkley. Neither side showing signs of fatigue. Stores closed today and provisions may be scarce, who will outlast who?
My money is on Jimmy Clownshoes.
He's got as many memes to use as handles.
Did you guess the correct hand for the rebuilding plan?
It then both made sense and was unsettling when for him, when Britt finally looked in the mirror, and realized he too had been a moth all of this time.
Britt in VA : 8:43 am : link : reply
I'm actually disappointed in myself for participating.
You guys should give it a try sometime.
Happy Easter. Out.
Because Mell Kiper says it, doesn't make it true. There were many in the run up to the 2018 draft that criticized the apparent decision by the Giants to focus on Barkley at #2. I remember beat reporters for Denver and Indy loving the Barkley pick because it meant better, more high value players, would fall to them.
I am sure you will get over it, and get right back into the mix in no time...
Yeah I don't get it. It became a like a strange meme to make it a point to say he was the best player in the draft. It was weird.
Go back and read Sy’s review of Barkley. He have him a 94 score and best player in the draft. I recall Jay Glazer calling him a “franchise changing” player leading up to the draft. Sean Payton called him the best RB prospect he has ever seen in 25 years. The point is, a lot of people *DID* view Barkley as the best player in the draft.
The hope still is that Barkley is more than just a RB. Successful teams have paid RB’s including the Saints. I still hope it works out.
Hopefully he’s healthy and has a strong season. If he does, he will most likely get paid.
I understand. But I find those opinions completely misplaced.
And I don't care if Sy awarded SB a 100 grade I would still feel the same exact away. The only reason I would have supported taking SB was if we were a winning team, who just happened to have the 2nd pick in the draft executed in a prior year, and had the luxury of taking a RB.
I know many of us have been over this ground hundreds of times, but it's really a position issue. And Barkley really played the wrong position.
Look, the timing was just bad - aging QB, a wobbly OL, and an all-in ownership plan to revitalize the aging QB.
We absolutely need Barkley to get back to full health. To help Jones and, IMV, eventually become trade bait to improve the team in other areas.
The offense is currently counting on:
- Jones bouncing back from an 11 TD, 14 start season
- Barkley bouncing back from a torn ACL
- Golladay bouncing back from a mysterious 9 week hip strain
- An UDFA, 5th round, 3rd round, and veteran bust contributing to the offensive line
If much of that turns out in the Giants favor, and they are competing for a championship over the next few years, I'll be happy to give Rabbit Foot Dave his credit.
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I'm actually disappointed in myself for participating.
I am sure you will get over it, and get right back into the mix in no time...
Britt's a Lost Boy just like the rest of us. He runs home with his toys once a week, but he'll be back to play next time.
If he was healthy Slayton looks better and EE looks better. His presence on the field simply make them better you dont pass on that talent. Ok we pick one of the OL and he has the same injuries here as Barkley then what it is also a bad pick? Injuries is luck of the draw in most cases otherwise a great talent falls due to injury and it is a known risk. Barkley should be seeing plays in the slot as staple in the O him vs a LB is a matchup I like. At RB he is a weapon and not a position the coaches have failed to utilize him like that.
And I don't care if Sy awarded SB a 100 grade I would still feel the same exact away. The only reason I would have supported taking SB was if we were a winning team, who just happened to have the 2nd pick in the draft executed in a prior year, and had the luxury of taking a RB.
I mean WTF does that even mean. Its a word salad. And in what football world anywhere does having a guy capable (because he's already done it) of generating over 2,000 yards from scrimmage not to mention forcing opposing defenses to concentrate almost exclusively on stopping him become a luxury?
At least this person acknowledged that Saquon might have been the best prospect in that draft. What made this whole thread tiresome was the drumbeat pushing the alternative reality that he wasn't. He was and it wasn't all that close. Kiper had him #1; Gil Brandt had him #1; Dan jeremiah had him #1; Mayock had him #1; Sy had him #1; we had him #1!
Of course, this really isn't about the Saquon pick; its about Gettleman being an incompetent. And its just hard to make him out to be an incompetent if you concede that yeah maybe Saquon was the best player (although some do try!)
Meanwhile several other nominees for the Award for the best mental gymnastics on this thread (in no particular order):
"The rest of the league liked Josh Allen enough to pick him 7th. That was the right pick. NFL GMs are paid to get picks right, not to follow the consensus."
Again I'm not sure what that means. Um, Daniel Jones was about the last thing from a consensus pick!
"People talk about him like he was a certainty to be the best RB in team history - he isn't even close to Tiki. I say that confidently."
We'' have to wait and see whether Saquon can comeback and have the same kind of career as Tiki- would be nice - but you should always in the scenarios you know maybe compare apples to apples. In his first three years tike rushed for a total of 934 yards. In his first 3 years (one of which he didn't play in at all) Saquon rushed for over 2,300 yards. In fact Tiki really didn't take off as a truly dominant back until his 6th year. You could look it up!
I'm not acknowledging SB was the best player in the 2018 draft. He was the best RB, but there were certainly other very capable RBs. Like Chubb, Michel, etc.
I want to say I said something similar at the time, but I don't know how anyone could watch an Alabama game or FSU game back in 2017 and not conclude Minkan Fitzpatrick and Derwin James weren't better football players than SB. They just happened to play positions that were less glorified.
You never know...
My point was as simple as there is. The Giants were transitioning away from Eli and needed a QB. Now we know that there was a stellar QB prospect taken at 7. The Giants did not take him. The consensus was that Allen would have been a reach. If the draft were redone today, Allen would be the #1 pick. The Giants made a key misevaluation. And now here we are arguing about what the consensus at the time was, as if that is the proper criterion.
An NFL GM’s objective is to pick the best players, not follow the consensus.
An NFL GM’s objective is to pick the best players, not follow the consensus.
That sums it up well.
And that's a them around here. Because there was this "consensus" on SB, it therefor justifies the pick and insulates it from criticism.
Group-think around here is very contagious... ;)
..that also applies to those sure they are not group thinkers and the concept only applies to the other sheeple.
Pretty funny to watch.
Now I seem to be one of the most negative BBI posters on Jones. I believe there is little chance he will develop into an above average NFL QB. He is a full-on project that should sit for a couple of seasons. Hope I’m wrong but the point is I’ve attempted to objectively perceive the situation because the divergent performances and opinions were so contradictory and confusing.
Yours truly,
The Sheeple
Sy's scouting report nailed it.
Regardless, sink or swim time for him this fall. The time for excuses are over.
With Jones, I'm getting the sense that's going to be what's needed to optimize his play. Which is why I have said we need to invest more this off-season so we eliminate the excuses.
Unfortunately, if this ends up being the case for the long term, it makes the selection of Jones at #6 even more disappointing.
I’m interested in knowing if there are any outcomes that would indicate it wasn’t a great pick.
I’m happy to set the bar on what would make it a great pick:
1) Three more 1200 yard rushing seasons
2) 10 or more total TDs per season over the next 3 years
3) 14 or more games played over the next 3 years
If he can do that, I’d be happy with his 6 year run as a Giant.
I think Judge is good enough to keep them from drafting high enough to replace him in the next few years.
He has a lot of qualities you want. And Mahomes, Burroughs and Lawrence's are few and far between.
We come off a period where Brady, Rodgers, Peyton and Brees had us forgetting that the NFL has had periods with fairly mediocre QB play at times.
For one example, we were very patient with a very flawed and very injured Phil Simms ( and he was the best we had since YA Tittle).
I doubt Jones is going to be any more than in thd 15-10 rung of Qbs. Honestly, I always thought Eli was never a top five QB and most years was just around the 10th QB in the NFL.
Just imo
Then the Giants fucked up the 6th pick in 2019 by passing on the consensus best player for a QB who was not the consensus best player at that spot.
OK got it! Makes sense to me!
It’s really difficult to win without an elite QB in today’s NFL.
The Saints picked an RB #2 in 2006 and won the Super Bowl in the 2009 season. My recollection is Bush was the consensus best player and people killed the Texans for picking Mario Williams. I don’t think Reggie Bush goes top ten in a re-draft of that class.
You can make a lot of mistakes building a team, not every decision is the most efficient/perfect allocation of resources. But when you have a QB that probably won’t be elite, all the other decisions are magnified.
Then the Giants fucked up the 6th pick in 2019 by passing on the consensus best player for a QB who was not the consensus best player at that spot.
OK got it! Makes sense to me!
Not only that, but 2018 and 2019 set us back years and continues to kill us!!
It is the "group think" of a very vocal minority, but a group that will turn any thread into a bash Gettleman thread as evidenced here. They have beaten the horse so badly that I think artificial turf fields are starting to replace rubber pellets with mashed equine....
I think it is possible to have genuinely rational and balanced possible conversations about DJ and SB ( and guys so tainted its not possible) but not DG.
We do not know enough about how selection decisions are made nor have we seen enough play out to make decisions about DG other than he has a unprofessional representation to the media ...which is amazing given it is NY and the NYG are if anything too sensitive to their coverage
DG was condemmed and ridiculed before he started the job and flogges each day for mistakes from years ago.
Its become a barrier to the daily outlook of some and become personal and bitter ( as Go Terps made clear in a thread yesterday) and weird for grown men who dont even know the guy. How do you let a person you dont know and never did anything to you personally affect oneself so much you are bitter? wtf?
If he changed 180 degrees many posters are so stuck in their emotions about the guy they couldnt see neutral or possible if they tried. And they no longer try. They do attack and deride posters who are more balanced much less ones who are flip on the opposite viewpoint.
honestly, I think SB is less the RB the Giants need than DJ is not the best QB. He is a high priced RB who doesnt give them a dependable running game or a complete RB performance.
But when it comes to DG, I see so much slanted feeling based opinions about the person I actually look to understand more fully what the GM position was trying to accomplish. The biggest argument for DG is the kind of detraction we see non stop of BBI. Many a thread and line of thought is designed to bring the same emotions about one guy in a complex multi year run of mistakes by many people to bear every single day.
Its not accurate and its not fun to watch grown men (some of whom one is used to being balanced commentators in the past) lose their shit over a guy in an organization
And the posters who claimed the cap could be managed well enough to no be a major barrier where derided as DG loving loyalists and ignorant.
Im not saying that to throw it in anyones face. Im saying it to point out that if you have only one hammer in your tool kit soon all you notice are nails that need hammering.
Then the Giants fucked up the 6th pick in 2019 by passing on the consensus best player for a QB who was not the consensus best player at that spot.
OK got it! Makes sense to me!
Not sure why this is so challenging, but the criticism, again, is that they took a RB. A position that has sinking value in the NFL and one that we didn't need. Sure, we got the best RB but that doesn't change the calculus. Not has it changed our ability to win more games than we lose.
If you think this is a crazy argument, I suggest you use Google and look up the topic. And how many front offices in the NFL have devalued the position. So this isn't some new theory being whipped by BBI. It's a practical approach to modern football.
And Barkley was not the best player. He was one of the best players. But if your thing is falling in line with what the "consensus" says, then I can see why you were ecstatic.
Jones is another topic. He was simply over-drafted. And thus far his performance bears that out.
not be a major barrier
I don't know Gettleman - true. But I have a very good idea why he was hired (cronyism and that he would stick with Eli), what his putrid record is thus far, and that he is an absolute embarrassment when he's in front of a camera representing the organization as, essentially, an officer of the company.
In fact, on the last point, I believe Jon C mentioned last week or the week prior that there are people inside the organization who don't feel good about Gettleman either when he's in front of a camera. And how he comes off...
Anyone from or who is a vital part of the very top of the standard deviations in performance from the mean is going to render normal or average comparisons within the category so inferior as to be meaningless.
Lee Iaccoca was such a good car marketing guy he could save companies. The average guy in car marketing usually didnt make it to retirement in one company.
Barkley has not been able to provide performance durable enough and complete enough and dependably enough to be considered the very top standard deviation from the mean in running games.
The fact that his awful public persona blinds one to be unable parse the rest and more important parts of his good bad and yet unknown record is what it is.
BTW, I agree that the job is essentially the equivalent to an officer of a public corporation and the same public facing clown show would be something he long since would have been explaining to a concerned Board of Directors.
Not that Reese was an exemplar on this aspect of the job either
I agree the average RB has become devalued in the NFl compared to the past.
I disagree with the idea that getting to the top performance level in any aspect of the game is a bad investment. If thats what the Giants got out of draft slot 2 then that was valuable.
But they did not get themselves to the top running game in the NFL. Oft injured, poor pass blocking, a limited variation of run tendencies and a too many slow to the hole or mis read running plays is far from a dependable 3rd and 4th quarter running game that wins. (Like say back in the day everyone knew no matter who the opponent was that the Bus was running behind Faneca and it didnt matter who knew that...it was going to be five to six yards per play. Thats a playoff winning running game and its still a way to win in the NFL if you have it).
Imo, the lack of an elite running game holds DJ type of quarterbacking back in more games than his own shortcomings do in others.
Imo, so far, the miss was more Barkley and an interior OL than DJ.
Of course not having a legit fully capable replacement for Eli by 2016 ( when he was past 35) was the biggest and easiest to foresee mistake of all
Running back as a position has a stress tested, statistically significant, lower likelihood to contribute across years 4, 5, 6. The injury data does not favor the running back.
Perfectly fair if the starting point is the approximate value of this player's career will be front loaded and the end point is anything beyond that is a bonus.
But let's not start buying concepts like consensus best player when the definition of best is fleeting. The Budweiser Rocker might be the consensus best if the goal is 740 on the Edward's dry lake bed. But if you need to get from Barstow to San Bernardino, you're screwed.
Then the Giants fucked up the 6th pick in 2019 by passing on the consensus best player for a QB who was not the consensus best player at that spot.
OK got it! Makes sense to me!
I know there are some that feel that way, but as you pointed out, you can't have it both ways. I personally feel that if you take Barkley at 2 because of BPA philosophy, you can't take Jones at 6 the next year, that was the point I was making. Up until this past off-season, it seems the Giants philosophy regarding the draft and FA has been inconsistent which is why people question the direction.
The one constant in the messaging through the years is DGs desire to upgrade the lines and if the o-line comes together this year, I think he accomplished his main goal, let's see if it leads to long term success.
- 2018: Let's reload around Eli
----- Draft Barkley instead of a QB
----- Make Solder highest paid LT in NFL
----- Pay Beckham big extension
- 2019: We made a mistake...Eli is cooked
----- Overdraft Jones in a classic panic move
The error is still manifesting itself in decision making:
-----2020: Draft Andrew Thomas to make up for Solder mistake and support Jones
-----2021: Overpay Kenny Golladay
All of these poor decisions and awful football is a ripple effect from:
1. Misevaluating Eli and the state of the 2018 roster
2. Reversing course with the 2019 panic selection of Jones
So here we are, with a team built around an injured, overrated running back and the wrong quarterback.
The rebuild hasn't yet begun. It begins when Jones and Barkley are gone. And that happens when Gettleman is gone.
I’m interested in knowing if there are any outcomes that would indicate it wasn’t a great pick.
I’m happy to set the bar on what would make it a great pick:
1) Three more 1200 yard rushing seasons
2) 10 or more total TDs per season over the next 3 years
3) 14 or more games played over the next 3 years
If he can do that, I’d be happy with his 6 year run as a Giant.
For many here all you need was the 2018 season it appears...
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Okay guys let me see if I got this straight. The Giants fucked up the 2nd pick overall in 2018 because they took the consensus best player. Screwed by group think again!
Then the Giants fucked up the 6th pick in 2019 by passing on the consensus best player for a QB who was not the consensus best player at that spot.
OK got it! Makes sense to me!
Not only that, but 2018 and 2019 set us back years and continues to kill us!!
It is the "group think" of a very vocal minority, but a group that will turn any thread into a bash Gettleman thread as evidenced here. They have beaten the horse so badly that I think artificial turf fields are starting to replace rubber pellets with mashed equine....
Still paying for Solder, still paying for Tate, hoping the highest drafted player the club has had in decades recovers to be a RB, hoping the Guard taken at #34 remembers how to block. Praying Jones learns how to be a QB. Still trying to finish building a Secondary thru free agency after wasting almost an entire 2019 draft on bad picks in that unit.
Yeah, I think we are still paying for 2018 and 2019...
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With Barkley, I’m fascinated with the certainty that he was a great pick.
I’m interested in knowing if there are any outcomes that would indicate it wasn’t a great pick.
I’m happy to set the bar on what would make it a great pick:
1) Three more 1200 yard rushing seasons
2) 10 or more total TDs per season over the next 3 years
3) 14 or more games played over the next 3 years
If he can do that, I’d be happy with his 6 year run as a Giant.
For many here all you need was the 2018 season it appears...
Yeah, hard to take anyone seriously if the stance is it was a great pick, regardless of any positional nuances, the overall architecture of the offense, and the results.
And two the idea of waste, the Giants didn’t waste “years,” — the wasted two years.
It takes seven comparable data points/metrics over seven meaningful performance measurement time slots to make a one year projection with a good confidence level. Has been true since James Forrestal and MIT for the DOD in WWII and John Nash at Princeton in the 1950's. That's with stable and relatively simple market/supply/consumption patterns and not with highly variable human performance in a multi variable game.
A lot of confidence evidenced in posting declarations doesnt overcome the actual unsubstantiated nature of positive or negative performance projections (speculative opinions) at this point.
Much more interesting to me than empty suits like most awesome grade ever or he was doomed at birth.