We know he is a good kid and hard worker so with that I think we can all agree his rehab is going as well as it can from a work ethic standpoint. He is a specimen and seems to have good healing "abilities". But can he commit to being a willing blocker in pass pro at times it seems like he does not want the contact and at that point the rusher has already won. Like being mentioned with Pitts and EE the want to factor of blocking can he will he improve in that regard. Next his understanding of the situation at hand not all plays will be a homerun ball. Take the hole and glow with the play and the game. Hopefully him seeing Freeman and Gallman having success being patient and taking the good yards to keep the "pitch count" on our side. Last be not least is he over the injury bug ... I know this one has no crystal ball just hopes and prayers I guess.
The main issue I see out of the ones I listed is his WILLINGNESS to block better in pass pro and his desire to pass on the grimy yards and setup the next down for a better chance at success. I hope Judge can fix that in him like TC fixed fumbling and ball security with Tiki ...
What say you all? If he can't be fixed what RBs in the later rounds or future drafts you want to take a chance on?
I also think this whole concept that he doesn't fight for yards or doesn't hit the hole hard, etc is really reaching. Not miuch you can do about getting hit 3 yards behind the LOS - that's the OL and scheme, nothing to do with him. I think we've seen Barkley as a victim of circumstance and wound up on a team that can't run block worth a damn. Also, settling for 2 yards isn't getting us anywhere - we just saw that with Gallman.
One thing Tiki mastered was hitting the hole when it was there, but going down when it was time to avoid a big hit or twisting/contorting his body awkwardly.
In other words, when Saquon breaks one for 12 yards, he should probably stop trying to leap the tackler to make it 15
As for pass blocking and other aspects, let's evaluate after a year with a better staff and team around him
If he gets hurt again this year (depending on severity of course) I can see the Giants picking up the 5th year option which I believe is like $7.3M. Gives them one more year to look at him and figure out what they want to do.
I was adamantly against the pick b/c it was an egregious mistake in it's use of resources (from the perspective of the #2 overall pick and the salary cap value that goes to a RB at that pick). However, now that we've made that mistake, we should at least squeeze as much value out of that poor decision as possible which means this absolutely should NOT be Saquon's last year as a Giant.
After this year, we can exercise his 5th year option. Anyone who says otherwise, again, doesn't understand value, positional worth, and how the cap works. Saquon's 2021 cap hit for 2021 is $10.1 million which is absurdly high for a RB on a rookie deal (again- poor use of resources with the #2 overall pick). But his 5th year option will actually result in a pay cut and a cap hit of only $7.2 million. That's a bargain for a player like Saquon AND gives us an extra year to squeeze that value our of the pick. In addition, we have the option to franchise him the following year for not much of a pay increase over his 2021 salary cap hit (franchise tag value for RB's in 2021 was $11.1 million).
So at minimum we have Saquon for another 2 years, and then we have the option of utilizing the franchise tag on him in yr 3. After that- a smart franchise let's him walk instead of exacerbating their draft mistake by investing substantial cap dollars into a then 27 year old RB.
I never said he wanted to block I think that is the biggest issue ... and it spills over into how he runs and his desire to run away from contact vs slamming it up in there at times.
I am happy is on the Giants.
Hopefully, these coaches will get him blocking better.
Anything else....is fill.
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I never said he wanted to block I think that is the biggest issue ... and it spills over into how he runs and his desire to run away from contact vs slamming it up in there at times.
And I never said you did! ;-)
But you did say -
"at times it seems like he does not want the contact"
So I'm just having a bit fun to point out that he's adverse to ANY contact, at any time. Great talent, but it's just not in his DNA, so let him do the things he CAN and WANTS to do.
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In comment 15204185 TC said:
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I never said he wanted to block I think that is the biggest issue ... and it spills over into how he runs and his desire to run away from contact vs slamming it up in there at times.
And I never said you did! ;-)
But you did say -
"at times it seems like he does not want the contact"
So I'm just having a bit fun to point out that he's adverse to ANY contact, at any time. Great talent, but it's just not in his DNA, so let him do the things he CAN and WANTS to do.
Adverse to contact. Got it.
Serious question..... What team in the nfl would ask their second best receiver to block on passing downs?
Every time Barkley is asked to block you are giving the defense an advantage. That's bad coaching. He should be running routes on passing downs. Putting pressure on the defense.
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But I believe this will be his last year in NY. I just don’t see him playing a whole year healthy. I don’t see the value in paying him probably what he wants. And I do not believe his running style and blocking are best for our team.
If he gets hurt again this year (depending on severity of course) I can see the Giants picking up the 5th year option which I believe is like $7.3M. Gives them one more year to look at him and figure out what they want to do.
Just as an FYI, SB's 5th year option (under the new CBA) has already vested. There is no choice to be made - he's already under contract for next year. If he makes the pro bowl, his 5yo price is close to the franchise tag value. If not, it's slightly higher than the transition tag.
Serious question..... What team in the nfl would ask their second best receiver to block on passing downs?
Every time Barkley is asked to block you are giving the defense an advantage. That's bad coaching. He should be running routes on passing downs. Putting pressure on the defense.
A) that's the cost of doing business as a premier RB. The job description doesn't change just because he's a dynamic weapon; he still has to do things that are asked of RBs.
B) there is such a thing as a chip block that precedes a route. SB has been meh (and needs to improve) on those as well. Pass pro from the RB slot isn't just about anchoring on the edge and echoing the OTs in pass sets. You get that, right?
That decision has to be made in the next five weeks. The draft may affect the team's inclination, and the team's inclination may affect the Draft. In any case, that's the decision.
But here's the thing: Unless I've missed some aspect of the New CBA, there's very little incentive for the Giants to pick up Saquon's option. Under the new rules, the option guarantees him a transition-tag 2022 salary, no matter what happens in 2021. The way I see it, they might as well decline the option, see how he looks in 2021, then tag him if they want him and haven't already signed him by March.
As I've said elsewhere, maybe the new CBS stipulates that declining the option also involves forfeiting other rights. That would make some sense, but I haven't seen it anywhere.
Sorry about the typo above: CBA, not CBS.
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In comment 15204216 5BowlsSoon said:
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But I believe this will be his last year in NY. I just don’t see him playing a whole year healthy. I don’t see the value in paying him probably what he wants. And I do not believe his running style and blocking are best for our team.
If he gets hurt again this year (depending on severity of course) I can see the Giants picking up the 5th year option which I believe is like $7.3M. Gives them one more year to look at him and figure out what they want to do.
Just as an FYI, SB's 5th year option (under the new CBA) has already vested. There is no choice to be made - he's already under contract for next year. If he makes the pro bowl, his 5yo price is close to the franchise tag value. If not, it's slightly higher than the transition tag.
I want to amend my prior post - OTC has now walked back the vesting portion of their 5yo page, so I'm not sure if SB's option has vested or not. If it hasn't, and if SB's 5yo genuinely DOES represent a reduction in cap value YOY, the Giants would be foolish to not exercise the option (they'd have exercised it either way, but this is so much more advantageous).
Link - ( New Window )
Sorry about the typo above: CBA, not CBS.
OTC previously reported that the 5yo automatically vested upon a player reaching any of the escalators in the CBA. That seems to not be the case; OTC is no longer reporting the 5yo as such and has updated their option values accordingly.
I apologize for sharing outdated info.
That decision has to be made in the next five weeks. The draft may affect the team's inclination, and the team's inclination may affect the Draft. In any case, that's the decision.
But here's the thing: Unless I've missed some aspect of the New CBA, there's very little incentive for the Giants to pick up Saquon's option. Under the new rules, the option guarantees him a transition-tag 2022 salary, no matter what happens in 2021. The way I see it, they might as well decline the option, see how he looks in 2021, then tag him if they want him and haven't already signed him by March.
As I've said elsewhere, maybe the new CBS stipulates that declining the option also involves forfeiting other rights. That would make some sense, but I haven't seen it anywhere.
BBB - I wonder what the thinking was on the 5th year option = transition tag salary? Can't be a coincidence.
Maybe just keeping things in raw simplicity or do you think something else? What was the old rule if you know.
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In comment 15204185 TC said:
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I never said he wanted to block I think that is the biggest issue ... and it spills over into how he runs and his desire to run away from contact vs slamming it up in there at times.
And I never said you did! ;-)
But you did say -
"at times it seems like he does not want the contact"
So I'm just having a bit fun to point out that he's adverse to ANY contact, at any time. Great talent, but it's just not in his DNA, so let him do the things he CAN and WANTS to do.
I can agree with that point .. as GMFB says ... where is his "Angry Runs"????
The change that affects Barkley much more profoundly is the full guarantee of the Year Five salary that kicks in when the option is exercised. (Previously the guarantee was only for injury.) The guarantee vs. performance is a powerful disincentive for the Giants, with Saquon's return to prior form very much in doubt.
The transition tag is so rarely used though...
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Is the giants second best receiver.
Serious question..... What team in the nfl would ask their second best receiver to block on passing downs?
Every time Barkley is asked to block you are giving the defense an advantage. That's bad coaching. He should be running routes on passing downs. Putting pressure on the defense.
A) that's the cost of doing business as a premier RB. The job description doesn't change just because he's a dynamic weapon; he still has to do things that are asked of RBs.
B) there is such a thing as a chip block that precedes a route. SB has been meh (and needs to improve) on those as well. Pass pro from the RB slot isn't just about anchoring on the edge and echoing the OTs in pass sets. You get that, right?
So how about on passing downs we change the two letters from rb to wr. So because you are a rb you MUST block? That's so stupid. Are there going to be plays on first and second down that call for him to block? Sure but they should be kept to a minimum. Should SB be asked to block or lined up in the backfield on passing downs? Absolutely NOT.
If you have been paying attention on passing downs with SB in the backfield the defense blitzes. Forcing SB to block and putting more pressure on our young Oline. It's a huge win for the defense.
Pat Shummer realized early in Barkley's rookie season to line him up outside or motion him out of the backfield. This reduced the number of pass rushers and eliminated Barkley's weakness. It also led to 90 some odd catches.
Keeping him in the backfield because "that's what running backs do" is stupid and terrible coaching. Unfortunately I think our OC is that stupid and will do just that.
I continue to regard the selection of Barkley and passing on Josh Allen as Gettleman's biggest mistake to date.
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In comment 15204313 fireitup77 said:
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Is the giants second best receiver.
Serious question..... What team in the nfl would ask their second best receiver to block on passing downs?
Every time Barkley is asked to block you are giving the defense an advantage. That's bad coaching. He should be running routes on passing downs. Putting pressure on the defense.
A) that's the cost of doing business as a premier RB. The job description doesn't change just because he's a dynamic weapon; he still has to do things that are asked of RBs.
B) there is such a thing as a chip block that precedes a route. SB has been meh (and needs to improve) on those as well. Pass pro from the RB slot isn't just about anchoring on the edge and echoing the OTs in pass sets. You get that, right?
So how about on passing downs we change the two letters from rb to wr. So because you are a rb you MUST block? That's so stupid. Are there going to be plays on first and second down that call for him to block? Sure but they should be kept to a minimum. Should SB be asked to block or lined up in the backfield on passing downs? Absolutely NOT.
How is that stupid? It's part of the responsibility of that position.
Let's change two letters in OT to WR also. Should they not be required to block? How about on running plans? Should WRs not block when the RB gets the ball?
The RB's job does include some measure of blocking on passing downs, even if he himself is an accomplished receiver. There's no way around that, unless you want to get your QB killed.
The best option for the Giants is trade Barkley as soon as he has a couple good games that show he's healthy. But if they insist on keeping him long term, I think they should consider changing his role to something akin to a slot receiver. Get him out of the backfield altogether and start throwing the ball to him in space.
However, a good portion of the league now understands the revised value of the RB. So I'm not sure what type of market there would be. I seriously doubt we claw back anything other than a second...
However, a good portion of the league now understands the revised value of the RB. So I'm not sure what type of market there would be. I seriously doubt we claw back anything other than a second...
Oh definitely. I wouldn't trade a second for Barkley. I doubt I'd trade for him at all, actually. You can draft a similar player in the middle rounds and pay him peanuts - so why pay Barkley?
But someone else might make the same mistake Gettleman did (to a lesser degree) and overvalue Barkley.
If someone offered a third I'd take it happily.
Now you say you’d happily take a third round pick for him, if anything.
Do you actually believe the utter bullshit you say - or do you just say these things hoping that someone gets a kick out of it?
Jesus.
Jesus.
That's absolutely true. Plenty of examples, but see Alvin Kamara. A third rounder just as skilled as Barkley.
What you guys fail to understand is that for every Alvin Kamara, there are 50 running backs in those rounds who didn’t make it.
What you guys fail to understand is that for every Alvin Kamara, there are 50 running backs in those rounds who didn’t make it.
I added "just as skilled". Bit I'd say Derrick Henry is pretty damn skilled to SB.
But the original premise was "similar". Which to me means a reasonable facsimile to Barkley, right?
So guys like Nick Chubb, Aaron Jones, Dalvin Cook, etc are reasonably close to the skills that SB has. They might not be as flashy, might not jump as high, might not make fancy spins, but they are highly productive.
There’s the injuries. You can’t just sweep those away. There’s the pass blocking, which he’s terrible at whether it’s because he doesn’t want the contact or some other reason doesn’t really matter. He isn’t a short yardage sure thing. He doesn’t really punish a defense. He’s often credited as being some sort of an amazing receiver but I don’t know if that’s born out on the field, especially in his route running. He’s had entire games where he’s a non factor. If he’s on another team I think most of us would agree that he can score anytime from anywhere and that’s exciting but on average he’s pretty unspectacular.
Put that together with the fact that it’s a passing game in a passing league and it’s fair to wonder why even a healthy Barkley is going to be some kind of massive difference maker? That’s also why the pass pro liability is such a huge problem for the Giants. I hope he can figure out protection because there’s a lot that can go wrong with the Giants offense if he does not.
2nd round is a big leap from “the mid rounds.”
Ankle that kept him out of 3 games in 2019. He came back and was as good as he was before. Still rushed for 1,000 yards that season with that line.
2020: torn ACL - freak play.
Can we stop acting like he is some constantly injured player? Enough already.
Even Mara today said he's tired of making excuses.
Ankle that kept him out of 3 games in 2019. He came back and was as good as he was before. Still rushed for 1,000 yards that season with that line.
That’s ridiculous. Barkley came back and very understandably struggled to get much done on the ground for a month and half, including the Jets game where he gained a yard and Jamal Adams destroyed him en route to step and the ball from Jones.
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“You can draft a similar player to Barkley in the mid rounds.”
Jesus.
That's absolutely true. Plenty of examples, but see Alvin Kamara. A third rounder just as skilled as Barkley.
Sooooo, you said "plenty of examples" and you listed one.
I don’t know about the mid rounds, but plenty of guys in the 2nd round and later are putting up big time yards.
James Conner, 3rd rounder. David Johnson, 3rd rounder. Raheem Mostert, undrafted. Jeff Wilson, undrafted.
And I'm sure I'm missing a bunch.
You don't have to draft a running back high, or pay a running back a big contract, to have a good offense. It's actually an incredibly stupid way to allocate resources.
And just about everyone felt that way the day before we drafted Barkley. I wonder how many here are arguing on behalf of that pick because they bought his jersey, because otherwise I don't understand the blind allegiance and homerism. He hasn't been a part of anything relevant as a Giant. None of these players have.
Barkley hasn't earned this level of made up bullshit.
I am sure his mental game will have improved (learning the offense etc) but how well it translates to the field remains to be seen. But given everything he will be diminished from pre-injury talent, but by how much remains to be seen. And he must learn to be a complete NFL back which also remains to be seen.
Again - tell me how you know this? He’s 24 years old.
Guess who else tore their ACL and basically immediately came back better than before? Deshaun Watson, Von Miller, Adrian Peterson, Knowshon Moreno, Jamaal Charles, and the technology was worse back then.
So what? They don't have to be as talented as him to produce on better offenses than the ones that were built around Barkley. How is that not clear yet?
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“the injuries”
Ankle that kept him out of 3 games in 2019. He came back and was as good as he was before. Still rushed for 1,000 yards that season with that line.
That’s ridiculous. Barkley came back and very understandably struggled to get much done on the ground for a month and half, including the Jets game where he gained a yard and Jamal Adams destroyed him en route to step and the ball from Jones.
What? His first 3 games back from the injury, he had 80, 145, and 100 total yards. He then finished the season with 115, 67, 143, 280, 115.
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the guys you listed are not even on the same earth as Barkley as a talent. Get over this.
So what? They don't have to be as talented as him to produce on better offenses than the ones that were built around Barkley. How is that not clear yet?
What’s clear is that you cannot grasp what I’m saying. Barkley put up 2,000 yards with a shit line and Eli on his last rope. Let’s maybe, just maybe wait and see what he can do with a better situation.
He put up 2000 yards because he touched the ball almost 400 times. Why do you think the offense that year only ranked 16th in scoring?
I've posted this stat several times about Barkley's supposed great 2018: the average NFL play that season went for 5.6 yards. The average play to Barkley went for 5.3 yards.
In 2018 the plays to Barkley (and there were over 380) were, on the whole, below average plays. Him reaching 2000 yards at 5.3 yards per play was a bad thing, can't you see that?
We are three disastrous years in, and somehow people are arguing that picking Barkley was a good move and, incredibly, that the best may yet be to come.
I'm starting to feel like this guy reading this crazy shit...
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Got it. So.....other than Alvin Kamara, name some of these “mid round” RBs that are “just as skilled” as Barkley. Also - Alvin Kamara is 1 player out of hundreds, probably a thousand players drafted in the mid rounds the past 10 years. I’ll wait.
What you guys fail to understand is that for every Alvin Kamara, there are 50 running backs in those rounds who didn’t make it.
I added "just as skilled". Bit I'd say Derrick Henry is pretty damn skilled to SB.
But the original premise was "similar". Which to me means a reasonable facsimile to Barkley, right?
So guys like Nick Chubb, Aaron Jones, Dalvin Cook, etc are reasonably close to the skills that SB has. They might not be as flashy, might not jump as high, might not make fancy spins, but they are highly productive.
Oh my God, this is getting ridiculous at this point. Of that list, ONLY Dalvin Cook is considered as skilled as Saquon. Maybe.
Go fuck yourself with Gibson and Chubb. I laugh you out while walking you to the door and then I shove you out. You are such a fucking clown. You make shot up to fit your horseshit narratives you unabashed fucking fraud. Ughh.....just go away you liar!
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What’s clear is that you cannot grasp what I’m saying. Barkley put up 2,000 yards with a shit line and Eli on his last rope. Let’s maybe, just maybe wait and see what he can do with a better situation.
He put up 2000 yards because he touched the ball almost 400 times. Why do you think the offense that year only ranked 16th in scoring?
I've posted this stat several times about Barkley's supposed great 2018: the average NFL play that season went for 5.6 yards. The average play to Barkley went for 5.3 yards.
In 2018 the plays to Barkley (and there were over 380) were, on the whole, below average plays. Him reaching 2000 yards at 5.3 yards per play was a bad thing, can't you see that?
We are three disastrous years in, and somehow people are arguing that picking Barkley was a good move and, incredibly, that the best may yet be to come.
I'm starting to feel like this guy reading this crazy shit...
So what constitutes greatness? Because fucking Derrick Henry had almost the exact same amount of yards despite touching the ball far more!
You are a fucking punchlime at this point. You cant even quote the stats you want to lie about effectively. Seriously, a total joke. People say you make good pointz, when you cannibalize your own poimt by bringing up stupid stats that dont even fit your narrative.
This has to be an April fools joke. Lol. You are such a fucking caricature. How many more times can you post the same shit, be pointed out that you are wrong and completely unwanted beforw you leave? Just take a break...you arent very good at this any more. People may not like me, but I just pointed out how your own numbers fucked your argument here and yet you will never own up to it.
How about stop coming to a Giants fan message board yo post horseshit if you dont like getting your ass handed to you?
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In comment 15205067 ryanmkeane said:
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“the injuries”
Ankle that kept him out of 3 games in 2019. He came back and was as good as he was before. Still rushed for 1,000 yards that season with that line.
That’s ridiculous. Barkley came back and very understandably struggled to get much done on the ground for a month and half, including the Jets game where he gained a yard and Jamal Adams destroyed him en route to step and the ball from Jones.
What? His first 3 games back from the injury, he had 80, 145, and 100 total yards. He then finished the season with 115, 67, 143, 280, 115.
I noticed you conveniently skipped over a few games there, Ryan.
What do you think matters more? Skill set, or being part of a productive scoring offense?
It sure seems like you're arguing in favor of skill set on this thread.
Again - the real question is: Why?
It is a fair point to indict his lack of pass protecting capability. But truthfully, he should ALWAYS be an option as a playmaker. Having him block is just as silly as having Tyreek Hill block. Sensible offensive scheme and/or 12 personnel sets should render this argument moot. While this seemed to be a great challenge for Shurmur to comprehend, Judge will get it right.
So, I’ll say this: SB had one of the best, if not THE best Rookie RB years in the 121 year history of the NFL..Shall I repeat that? Of course not, because this fact doesn’t mean shit to the agendites..
Played on 1 leg his second year with a debilitating HAS and of course the ACL last year..
Doesn’t mean and will never mean a fucking thing to agendites. Ever.
Again, lets simply hope Barkley recovers nicely, re-establishes his game and the Giants learn from this...
I added "just as skilled". Bit I'd say Derrick Henry is pretty damn skilled to SB.
But the original premise was "similar". Which to me means a reasonable facsimile to Barkley, right?
So guys like Nick Chubb, Aaron Jones, Dalvin Cook, etc are reasonably close to the skills that SB has. They might not be as flashy, might not jump as high, might not make fancy spins, but they are highly productive.
Oh my God, this is getting ridiculous at this point. Of that list, ONLY Dalvin Cook is considered as skilled as Saquon. Maybe.
Go fuck yourself with Gibson and Chubb. I laugh you out while walking you to the door and then I shove you out. You are such a fucking clown. You make shot up to fit your horseshit narratives you unabashed fucking fraud. Ughh.....just go away you liar!
Which part of “reasonably close” to SB is hard for you to understand? And that’s the point. While you and others are mesmerized by SB’s spins, jumps, cuts, etc - like there are style points awarded in the NFL like figure skating - there are backs chosen outside the first round who bring quality production to their teams that is essential to winning.
So while guys like SB and CMac, both examples of over-drafted RBs, produce a ton of yards, highlights and endorsements, their teams go nowhere because they are the center-pieces of their offenses. And that doesn’t win in today’s NFL. The QB and the passing game need to be the centerpiece and the running game needs to compliment that. Not the other way around, which is too often what Gettleman suggests, and why drafting SB at #2 was very poor strategy.
And at the end of the day, this will happen - the success of this team will hinge on Jones. As he goes, so goes the team. We will not win divisions, playoff games or a SB because of SB. It will be Jones.
What Mara will absolutely do is pay him his 5th Year Option, $7.2 million, and keep him around next year. That's a paycut from this season. That's a no brainer to me.
Barkley is a huge talent. Its fair to argue that we shouldn't have picked him because we didn't have the OL to support him properly. We still don't, hopefully we will address properly with this year's draft.
In hindsight, Quentin Nelson should have been our pick instead of Barkley. Hindsight is always 20/20 though.
That said, I'm glad we have Saquon on the team, he is an immense talent. If he plays all of last season, we would have won the division. That's says it all about his ability.
I'm confident Judge will help him make huge impact this season assuming he's healthy and ready to go physically.
2nd round is a big leap from “the mid rounds.”
Sorry, my bad, I was just focusing on any recent RB not chosen in the first round. Which is the heart of this debate.
But the point still stands - being able to find RBs who can provide quality production at a much cheaper rate rather than wasting a high draft choice on the RB.
Yes, there is the occasional late round or undrafted RB that surprises each year but definitely lower hit rates. And more of a bonus than really something you want to rely upon happening. But it absolutely occurs.
I subscribe to the thinking that reasonably productive running backs can be found later in the draft and as unsigned free agents prior to summer. I do not subscribe whatsoever that a rebuilding team uses an overall #2 pick on one.
It is a fair point to indict his lack of pass protecting capability. But truthfully, he should ALWAYS be an option as a playmaker. Having him block is just as silly as having Tyreek Hill block. Sensible offensive scheme and/or 12 personnel sets should render this argument moot. While this seemed to be a great challenge for Shurmur to comprehend, Judge will get it right.
Well, that's kind of the point. If the Giants had a functional OL in place, I think the Barkley pick would look so much better. But that it came before the OL was repaired (and the OL still isn't a finished product as far as we can tell right now) made it a bit of a poor pick. Not because of Barkley - he is supremely talented and should be the best RB in the league - but because the team was not yet built to take advantage of such a talented RB, and because draft assets are finite, to the extent that not only was Barkley drafted before the OL was finished, but the value of that pick might have been more effectively used to build the OL instead.
That said, Barkley is a Giant and I hope he remains a Giant going forward, and that the decision to keep him long-term is because he steps into a centerpiece role for a winning program this year.
I just don't want Mara to lock himself into Barkley just because we're all still seduced by what Barkley is capable of. SB needs to be a big part of a huge step forward for this team in 2021. I don't think anyone doubts that he's capable of doing exactly that.
No more appetizers - tell the waiter to bring the main course.
It is a fair point to indict his lack of pass protecting capability. But truthfully, he should ALWAYS be an option as a playmaker. Having him block is just as silly as having Tyreek Hill block. Sensible offensive scheme and/or 12 personnel sets should render this argument moot. While this seemed to be a great challenge for Shurmur to comprehend, Judge will get it right.
Barkley has big play capabilities, is a player opponents must account for and as such is a weapon anyone would want on their team.
But as someone who believes in positional value I was not really a fan of him being the #2 pick in the draft.
I understand injuries are always a risk, but given the reckless abandon with which he runs. I always felt this was even more true for him.
I don’t see any evidence up to this pt that he was the right pick. But there is still time for you to be proven correct l; I hope you are.
In hindsight, it's easy to say thay should have torn the house down to the foundation in 2018. And if you're starting from scratch in the modern NFL, you don't start with a running back.
By the way, I don't think Elliott was a particularly good pick either, considering how fragile Romo was. At least Dallas had an offensive line. Then they struck gold (or at least silver) with Prescott.
Yes, there is the occasional late round or undrafted RB that surprises each year but definitely lower hit rates. And more of a bonus than really something you want to rely upon happening. But it absolutely occurs.
I subscribe to the thinking that reasonably productive running backs can be found later in the draft and as unsigned free agents prior to summer. I do not subscribe whatsoever that a rebuilding team uses an overall #2 pick on one.
Absolutely 100% correct.
In hindsight, it's easy to say thay should have torn the house down to the foundation in 2018. And if you're starting from scratch in the modern NFL, you don't start with a running back.
By the way, I don't think Elliott was a particularly good pick either, considering how fragile Romo was. At least Dallas had an offensive line. Then they struck gold (or at least silver) with Prescott.
This theory that Barks was drafted for Eli has always seemed unlikely to me. First, how does a running back make Eli better? When Eli was at his best he had RBBC, and yes some terrific and very solid backs on those committees. But still, it was Eli and the O line being able to pass pro which made those offenses go even in the ground game. And further, what other teams in the NFL subscribe to this idea that a QB1 needs to put top priority on RB1 for success? I guess you can look at the Pokes with Zeke, but even there the O line was very heavily invested in before getting Zeke. Maybe the Rams and Gurely? Idk, not saying it’s beyond the scope of reason. But, if you went to Eli and asked him in 17 or 18, “hey Eli what do you really need”? I don’t think he’s say, “get me a flashy gadget back from PSU that doesn’t pass pro”, or even, “all I need is a running game”. I think, and it’s obviously just my speculation, I think Eli would have wanted pass protection and that doesn’t indicate taking a RB and it especially doesn’t indicate taking Barkley.
In trying to stick to that plan (assuming it was in fact the plan), the Giants may have reached for Daniel Jones; it's too early to tell on that part. I think it was a crappy plan all along, because Eli was baked and the roster stunk. It didn't help that the 2019 QB class turned out to be pretty meh. I just figure the team had a plan - I give them credit for that much, no matter how slim the plan's chances for success may have been.
Shouldn’t that make us excited as Giants fans?
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...of a final, two-year push to win with Eli Manning. Within that context, drafting Barkley and signing Solder/Omameh probably made sense. Even the coaching hires may have been defensible. I think the entire concept was misguided, but I also think it was a constraint Gettleman accepted when he got the job.
In hindsight, it's easy to say thay should have torn the house down to the foundation in 2018. And if you're starting from scratch in the modern NFL, you don't start with a running back.
By the way, I don't think Elliott was a particularly good pick either, considering how fragile Romo was. At least Dallas had an offensive line. Then they struck gold (or at least silver) with Prescott.
This theory that Barks was drafted for Eli has always seemed unlikely to me. First, how does a running back make Eli better? When Eli was at his best he had RBBC, and yes some terrific and very solid backs on those committees. But still, it was Eli and the O line being able to pass pro which made those offenses go even in the ground game. And further, what other teams in the NFL subscribe to this idea that a QB1 needs to put top priority on RB1 for success? I guess you can look at the Pokes with Zeke, but even there the O line was very heavily invested in before getting Zeke. Maybe the Rams and Gurely? Idk, not saying it’s beyond the scope of reason. But, if you went to Eli and asked him in 17 or 18, “hey Eli what do you really need”? I don’t think he’s say, “get me a flashy gadget back from PSU that doesn’t pass pro”, or even, “all I need is a running game”. I think, and it’s obviously just my speculation, I think Eli would have wanted pass protection and that doesn’t indicate taking a RB and it especially doesn’t indicate taking Barkley.
The Giants had been chasing a bellcow RB since Bradshaw retired. They tried to do it with David Wilson too. I can't explain it, but it's definitely a thin
After Eli finished his contract and with a new QB on the roster he would have a stronger OL (through draft) and still have Barkley playing a big supporting role.
Unfortunately that vision failed miserably but I understood the logic.
I
Why don’t we just agree with this....applying hindsight is allowed.....
Thus, the Barkley pick was a mistake and we should have drafted Josh Allen, QB. That way we would have a QB everyone can feel good about and more than likely we would have drafted a stud in 2019 when we drafted Daniel Jones. In addition, we wouldn’t have a broken down RB who likes to dance behind the line of scrimmage.
Let’s all agree with that and move on. I know applying hindsight makes it much easier to judge...so what?
Why don’t we just agree with this....applying hindsight is allowed.....
Thus, the Barkley pick was a mistake and we should have drafted Josh Allen, QB. That way we would have a QB everyone can feel good about and more than likely we would have drafted a stud in 2019 when we drafted Daniel Jones. In addition, we wouldn’t have a broken down RB who likes to dance behind the line of scrimmage.
Let’s all agree with that and move on. I know applying hindsight makes it much easier to judge...so what?
And if Jones takes the steps in year 3 to prove himself as a top QB as we hope, and Barkley has a great next 5 years, and we become a contender, can we then say you have applied your amazing hindsight too quickly?
If they had selected a QB and Eli struggles (good chance) the pressure would have been immense to bench him again.
It was short sighted but considering it was Eli and what he had meant to the franchise I see the thought process. Mara would have been thrilled if Eli even just had the chance to play meaningful games in December.
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In comment 15205067 ryanmkeane said:
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“the injuries”
Ankle that kept him out of 3 games in 2019. He came back and was as good as he was before. Still rushed for 1,000 yards that season with that line.
That’s ridiculous. Barkley came back and very understandably struggled to get much done on the ground for a month and half, including the Jets game where he gained a yard and Jamal Adams destroyed him en route to step and the ball from Jones.
What? His first 3 games back from the injury, he had 80, 145, and 100 total yards. He then finished the season with 115, 67, 143, 280, 115.
You stated he was the same guy and then quoted his rushing stats. I said he struggled on the ground.
After he came back he rushed for 72, 64, 28, 1, 59, 83, and 66 yards over 8 games.
In addition to missing three games, he took bout 2 months to return to form on the ground.
If you do think that had an effect on the team, we can agree to disagree. He's the running back, his primary responsibility is to run the football.
Why don’t we just agree with this....applying hindsight is allowed.....
Thus, the Barkley pick was a mistake and we should have drafted Josh Allen, QB. That way we would have a QB everyone can feel good about and more than likely we would have drafted a stud in 2019 when we drafted Daniel Jones. In addition, we wouldn’t have a broken down RB who likes to dance behind the line of scrimmage.
Let’s all agree with that and move on. I know applying hindsight makes it much easier to judge...so what?
There's a lot in this to disagree with, especially this piece of happy horseshit:
"In addition, we wouldn’t have a broken down RB who likes to dance behind the line of scrimmage. "
If that's the way a Giants fan sees Barkley and his rookie year didn't dispel that pile of crap, then talking about hindsight is the least of your worries.
Maybe gathering some football acumen should move to the top of the list.
Ironically, Shurmur was reportedly very much in favor of Josh Allen.
Barkley thoughts aside, it's crazy that we throw McAdoo and Shurmur into R** H****** territory regularly, but the former was bullish on Mahomes and the latter on Allen.
Neither McAdoo nor Shurmur were good head coaches, but in hindsight, they both knew dynamic QBs when they saw them.
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Been discussed many many times here...by the same guys. Can’t we move away from it?
Why don’t we just agree with this....applying hindsight is allowed.....
Thus, the Barkley pick was a mistake and we should have drafted Josh Allen, QB. That way we would have a QB everyone can feel good about and more than likely we would have drafted a stud in 2019 when we drafted Daniel Jones. In addition, we wouldn’t have a broken down RB who likes to dance behind the line of scrimmage.
Let’s all agree with that and move on. I know applying hindsight makes it much easier to judge...so what?
And if Jones takes the steps in year 3 to prove himself as a top QB as we hope, and Barkley has a great next 5 years, and we become a contender, can we then say you have applied your amazing hindsight too quickly?
Hey, I hope hope hope you are right about the both of what you said because I am first and foremost a Giants fan. I emphatically want both Jones and Barkley to excel this coming year and I gladly would come back on this thread and say, “I spoke too soon!”
I bet you Judge likes Fields or Mac Jones, for example.
Can we stop with these hackneyed replies? Of course no one ever knows with certainty how a prospect is going to turn out.
But it didn't take a lot of game watching/highlight watching/pro day watching to realize that Josh Allen was a freak QB prospect who had the goods to fit today's NFL. And it doesn't surprise me that he has blossomed into one of the best play-makers in the NFL. He's more valuable to the Bills than Barkley will ever be to the Giants.
From a personal standpoint, I would feel a helluva lot better right now with Allen at QB than Jones.
After Eli finished his contract and with a new QB on the roster he would have a stronger OL (through draft) and still have Barkley playing a big supporting role.
Unfortunately that vision failed miserably but I understood the logic.
I understood the logic, too. And even said it at the time. but it was a horribly flawed strategy. One that has led to this continued darkness.
Look, Mara was chasing a title and hoping, through the hiring of his lemming GM Gettleman, that they could catch lightening in a bottle again with Eli. And send "his other son" out on the proverbial high note.
Sentimentality is a big part of the "Giants Way". My biggest hope for Judge is that he can finally crush that and reduce the team's decision making to the "cold business decision" approach Mara actually mentioned yesterday...
I bet you Judge likes Fields or Mac Jones, for example.
And you'll be the first to lick your wounds when I come after your posts, right?
Neither Mahomes nor Allen went at the top of their respective drafts. Neither went top 3. Neither went top 5.
If they were both such no-brainers, they should have gone earlier, no?
You're free to disagree, but I happen to think it's notable that our braintrust had actually hired coaches who might have identified two different outstanding successors to Eli. The fact that they were hired to salvage/extend Eli is part of the problem, not part of the excuse, IMO.
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Do we know that Allen would have been what he is now?
Can we stop with these hackneyed replies? Of course no one ever knows with certainty how a prospect is going to turn out.
But it didn't take a lot of game watching/highlight watching/pro day watching to realize that Josh Allen was a freak QB prospect who had the goods to fit today's NFL. And it doesn't surprise me that he has blossomed into one of the best play-makers in the NFL. He's more valuable to the Bills than Barkley will ever be to the Giants.
From a personal standpoint, I would feel a helluva lot better right now with Allen at QB than Jones.
In hindsight, had Mara not made the constraint, and the Giants selected either Allen or Jackson in 2018, there is absolutely no doubt the Giants would be in a superior position. They would have solved the EDGE problem by selecting Josh Allen in 2019 and the Giants would have been a playoff team last year without question.
Except that Shurmur would still be coach and we would have to suffer through years of mediocrity with incompetent coaching and poor personnel management. And then no clarity on when or if we would land on a competent coach who can drive good GM and Owner decision making. Which we appear to have now in Judge.
Maybe all of this has happened for a reason and has been the shortest path of least resistance to championship calibre football. Maybe not. Let's hope.
I think we were waiting for someone to tell us the value of 300+ carries per season.
Barkley is a one (a primary) component in the larger offensive program.
The better question, and the bigger analysis, is did Gettleman architect an offense that can be a winner.
You've got to get the components and the vision correct. Barkley being a phenomenal individual success on an average offense, that doesn't win games, isn't a victory for the Giants.
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liking top QB candidates is any sort of feather in a cap. They were hired to coach an Eli led Giants team whether they liked it or not. I'll give McAdoo credit for having the balls to make a change, but I'm not giving him credit for liking Mahomes.
I bet you Judge likes Fields or Mac Jones, for example.
And you'll be the first to lick your wounds when I come after your posts, right?
Neither Mahomes nor Allen went at the top of their respective drafts. Neither went top 3. Neither went top 5.
If they were both such no-brainers, they should have gone earlier, no?
You're free to disagree, but I happen to think it's notable that our braintrust had actually hired coaches who might have identified two different outstanding successors to Eli. The fact that they were hired to salvage/extend Eli is part of the problem, not part of the excuse, IMO.
So the goalpost is moved to top 5? That's interesting.
in 2017 Mahomes was taken 10th overall, we picked 23rd. I'd say more than a couple HC's out there liked Mahomes, wouldn't you?
No idea what the licking my wounds reference is. Why can't anyone disagree with you without some other motive attached to it. This isn't the first time I've stated this anyway, others have made reference to McAdoo forecasting Mahomes and my response was the same to them - i'm sure a bunch of people liked Mahomes, he wasn't a 2nd rounder.
In hindsight, had Mara not made the constraint, and the Giants selected either Allen or Jackson in 2018, there is absolutely no doubt the Giants would be in a superior position. They would have solved the EDGE problem by selecting Josh Allen in 2019 and the Giants would have been a playoff team last year without question.
Except that Shurmur would still be coach and we would have to suffer through years of mediocrity with incompetent coaching and poor personnel management. And then no clarity on when or if we would land on a competent coach who can drive good GM and Owner decision making. Which we appear to have now in Judge.
Maybe all of this has happened for a reason and has been the shortest path of least resistance to championship calibre football. Maybe not. Let's hope.
I myriad of things I completely disagree with in how you put together this post, is the simple correct comment that picking a RB at #2 was the wrong thing to do.
This was solved before Barkley was even picked.
Go Terps : 4/26/2018 7:06 pm : link
In comment 13934909 AcidTest said:
Quote:
the Browns draft Mayfield, DG will have to decide whether to draft Darnold, Rosen, or trade the pick. This is the most important decision since Accorsi traded for Eli. It defines or destroys careers and legacies.
Agree. If I were Gettleman I'd be approaching this draft like the Giants were an expansion team. I inherited a terrible roster with an awful locker room culture and some bad contracts, and I want to start a new era today. That means doing one of two things:
- Draft the new franchise quarterback
or
- Trade down and use the bounty to restock the team with as many young, cost controlled players not tied to the previous era as possible
What this absolutely should not be about is "get the best player to help Eli". That thinking is the reason that Eli ended up with only a 111-103 career record to this point.
Stop reacting and start building.
And from that same thread, a taste of how stupid I can be:
Go Terps : 4/26/2018 7:11 pm : link
In comment 13934939 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Thoughtful post.
This was the worry with staying in-house (and I consider Gettleman an in-house pick).
We'll see what happens. But I like your expansion team analogy.
I like Gettleman and he seems extremely competent to me, but that was my concern with hiring him as well.
Extremely competent. Ha!
Link - ( New Window )
So, I’ll say this: SB had one of the best, if not THE best Rookie RB years in the 121 year history of the NFL..Shall I repeat that? Of course not, because this fact doesn’t mean shit to the agendites..
Played on 1 leg his second year with a debilitating HAS and of course the ACL last year..
Doesn’t mean and will never mean a fucking thing to agendites. Ever.
It doesn't mean a thing. What does mean a thing is going 15-33 over that period.
The only agenda from me is wanting to see the Giants be a winning team. Your agenda has been making excuses for an organization which, for the past three years, couldn't make a cup of coffee without fucking it up.
If that's how you want to consume Giants football that's your prerogative, but I've got no interest in it.
RE: Go Terps
Go Terps : 4/26/2018 7:11 pm : link
In comment 13934939 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Thoughtful post.
This was the worry with staying in-house (and I consider Gettleman an in-house pick).
We'll see what happens. But I like your expansion team analogy.
I like Gettleman and he seems extremely competent to me, but that was my concern with hiring him as well.
Extremely competent. Ha! Link - ( New Window )
So this tells us you fell down and hit your head on the ground sometime around 7:08pm that evening...
:-)
I couldn't believe a $2 billion corporation could operate so stupidly. I doubt I referred to Gettleman as competent after that.
When I got back an hour or so later, my son ran up to the car and said "Dad, you are going to be mad..."
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In comment 15205498 UConn4523 said:
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liking top QB candidates is any sort of feather in a cap. They were hired to coach an Eli led Giants team whether they liked it or not. I'll give McAdoo credit for having the balls to make a change, but I'm not giving him credit for liking Mahomes.
I bet you Judge likes Fields or Mac Jones, for example.
And you'll be the first to lick your wounds when I come after your posts, right?
Neither Mahomes nor Allen went at the top of their respective drafts. Neither went top 3. Neither went top 5.
If they were both such no-brainers, they should have gone earlier, no?
You're free to disagree, but I happen to think it's notable that our braintrust had actually hired coaches who might have identified two different outstanding successors to Eli. The fact that they were hired to salvage/extend Eli is part of the problem, not part of the excuse, IMO.
So the goalpost is moved to top 5? That's interesting.
in 2017 Mahomes was taken 10th overall, we picked 23rd. I'd say more than a couple HC's out there liked Mahomes, wouldn't you?
No idea what the licking my wounds reference is. Why can't anyone disagree with you without some other motive attached to it. This isn't the first time I've stated this anyway, others have made reference to McAdoo forecasting Mahomes and my response was the same to them - i'm sure a bunch of people liked Mahomes, he wasn't a 2nd rounder.
The goalposts aren't moving, dude. You are acting like Mahomes and Allen were no-brainers that any coach would have wanted. But I'm pointing out that they were both drafted later in their respective drafts than DANIEL JONES was picked in his draft.
Please try to follow along.
Ownership cared more for Eli than a normal employee. He was a 2 time winning SB bowl QB and MVP that delivered one of the biggest upsets in Superbowl history and came to work every single day, injured or not.
They drafted him a running back to give him one more shot. 15-33 was the result and that sucks but I can live with it. Eli was great to root for and the final drive in 2007 was the greatest moment of my "fan" life.
All in all, I accept it happened and have moved on.
Get a grip.
I have my doubts that he will come back and be good in the areas he was weak in, pre-injury. (Namely - pass pro & grinding yards). The gritty yards stuff I've kind of given up on with him - he's not that style RB. But he needs to be a great pass blocker.
Ownership cared more for Eli than a normal employee. He was a 2 time winning SB bowl QB and MVP that delivered one of the biggest upsets in Superbowl history and came to work every single day, injured or not.
They drafted him a running back to give him one more shot. 15-33 was the result and that sucks but I can live with it. Eli was great to root for and the final drive in 2007 was the greatest moment of my "fan" life.
All in all, I accept it happened and have moved on.
Get a grip.
You think they actually did right by Eli? They didn't...they screwed him. He walked with a lot of money, yeah...but his legacy took a huge hit. He retired a .500 QB, and probably isn't a first ballot HOF (if he makes it at all).
The Giants never got it, just like you don't get it now. They screwed Eli. The latter half of his career was destroyed by incompetence...primarily that of John Mara.
Ownership cared more for Eli than a normal employee. He was a 2 time winning SB bowl QB and MVP that delivered one of the biggest upsets in Superbowl history and came to work every single day, injured or not.
They drafted him a running back to give him one more shot. 15-33 was the result and that sucks but I can live with it. Eli was great to root for and the final drive in 2007 was the greatest moment of my "fan" life.
All in all, I accept it happened and have moved on.
Get a grip.
And yet that same ownership someone had it in their heart to bench him for Geno Smith...
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In comment 15205513 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15205498 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
liking top QB candidates is any sort of feather in a cap. They were hired to coach an Eli led Giants team whether they liked it or not. I'll give McAdoo credit for having the balls to make a change, but I'm not giving him credit for liking Mahomes.
I bet you Judge likes Fields or Mac Jones, for example.
And you'll be the first to lick your wounds when I come after your posts, right?
Neither Mahomes nor Allen went at the top of their respective drafts. Neither went top 3. Neither went top 5.
If they were both such no-brainers, they should have gone earlier, no?
You're free to disagree, but I happen to think it's notable that our braintrust had actually hired coaches who might have identified two different outstanding successors to Eli. The fact that they were hired to salvage/extend Eli is part of the problem, not part of the excuse, IMO.
So the goalpost is moved to top 5? That's interesting.
in 2017 Mahomes was taken 10th overall, we picked 23rd. I'd say more than a couple HC's out there liked Mahomes, wouldn't you?
No idea what the licking my wounds reference is. Why can't anyone disagree with you without some other motive attached to it. This isn't the first time I've stated this anyway, others have made reference to McAdoo forecasting Mahomes and my response was the same to them - i'm sure a bunch of people liked Mahomes, he wasn't a 2nd rounder.
The goalposts aren't moving, dude. You are acting like Mahomes and Allen were no-brainers that any coach would have wanted. But I'm pointing out that they were both drafted later in their respective drafts than DANIEL JONES was picked in his draft.
Please try to follow along.
No need to be an asshole. I disagree with you, live with it.
QB's taken at 7 and 10 (Allen and Mahomes) had interest from coaches and executives other than McAdoo and Shurmur. The fact that you have a problem with that statement is alarming. I will give them credit for advocating to move on from Eli, I will not give them credit for thinking 2 QB's with a handful of elite attributes would be good NFL QB's.
And yet that same ownership someone had it in their heart to bench him for Geno Smith...
Well now you are getting into some interesting territory with that. Way too many BBIers think McAdoo and Reese we're the sole deciders on that. And that Mara was caught off guard, which led to the firing of both.
But it is 100% spot on that Mara discussed the situation, asked for a plan from Reese/McAdoo and APPROVED the plan.
When the blow-back occurred, however, Mara panicked and needed fall guys. So he scapegoated Mac & Reese. I wasn't a huge Reese guy (thought he had run his course as a GM), but felt bad for Mac. He got royally screwed by an owner who acted like a big phony. And that probably has hurt Mac's ability to get back into the league at a prominent position...
Screwed.
For fucks sake.
Screwed.
For fucks sake.
Not sure what you are talking about...I think McAdoo feels screwed by the Giants.
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You think Eli feels screwed by the Giants? Archie was screwed. He knows exactly what screwed looks like. He retired as the player paid the most in NFL history with 2 SB trophies.
Screwed.
For fucks sake.
Not sure what you are talking about...I think McAdoo feels screwed by the Giants.
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Do we know that Allen would have been what he is now?
Can we stop with these hackneyed replies? Of course no one ever knows with certainty how a prospect is going to turn out.
But it didn't take a lot of game watching/highlight watching/pro day watching to realize that Josh Allen was a freak QB prospect who had the goods to fit today's NFL. And it doesn't surprise me that he has blossomed into one of the best play-makers in the NFL. He's more valuable to the Bills than Barkley will ever be to the Giants.
From a personal standpoint, I would feel a helluva lot better right now with Allen at QB than Jones.
This was you a week before the draft.
At # 2
bw in dc : 4/19/2018 11:12 am : link
I'm out of on Mayfield, Barkley and Nelson.
And, regrettably, I'm close to being out of Rosen and Allen.
There is some revisionist history going on here. I guess we don't have a full I'm totally out on Allen, but you are framing it like you thought he was some sure thing.
If he was any good he'd have a job by now. Wanting to bench Eli and/or being thrown under the bus by Mara would be overlooked if he was the goods.
It is really heard for me, and it really should be hard for anyone else, to claim the Giants didn't do right by Eli. They could have done better, but that's an ocean of difference.
There are guys on the outside looking in who would beg to have any single team years like 2007 or 2011. The greatest sin for any franchise is to not win when you have a QB that can do so, and you don't support him.
The Giants efforts to put players around him were so tryhard that they dug themselves into a hole doing so.
Quote:
And yet that same ownership someone had it in their heart to bench him for Geno Smith...
Well now you are getting into some interesting territory with that. Way too many BBIers think McAdoo and Reese we're the sole deciders on that. And that Mara was caught off guard, which led to the firing of both.
But it is 100% spot on that Mara discussed the situation, asked for a plan from Reese/McAdoo and APPROVED the plan.
When the blow-back occurred, however, Mara panicked and needed fall guys. So he scapegoated Mac & Reese. I wasn't a huge Reese guy (thought he had run his course as a GM), but felt bad for Mac. He got royally screwed by an owner who acted like a big phony. And that probably has hurt Mac's ability to get back into the league at a prominent position...
Yes, Mara is not immune to being a chucklehead.
Eli surprised them all by putting a twist on their benching plans. And Mac & Reese ended up with the most likely the same result that was going to happen to them anyway...getting fired.
This is also why I never subscribe to the Eli mandate crap. Mara hired Getts to make his own eval on Eli, and Getts came to the view that he could still play fine. It was just the answer the owners were pleased to hear, but not mandating.
The problem though is Getts is a member of the chucklehead club too...
Well, he went 11-5 in his first year. If he's not a very good coach, I'm not sure why we're all bowing at the shrine of Joe Judge*.
*I actually like Joe Judge a lot. I just hate illogical takes more than I like JJ.
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In comment 15205673 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15205513 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15205498 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
liking top QB candidates is any sort of feather in a cap. They were hired to coach an Eli led Giants team whether they liked it or not. I'll give McAdoo credit for having the balls to make a change, but I'm not giving him credit for liking Mahomes.
I bet you Judge likes Fields or Mac Jones, for example.
And you'll be the first to lick your wounds when I come after your posts, right?
Neither Mahomes nor Allen went at the top of their respective drafts. Neither went top 3. Neither went top 5.
If they were both such no-brainers, they should have gone earlier, no?
You're free to disagree, but I happen to think it's notable that our braintrust had actually hired coaches who might have identified two different outstanding successors to Eli. The fact that they were hired to salvage/extend Eli is part of the problem, not part of the excuse, IMO.
So the goalpost is moved to top 5? That's interesting.
in 2017 Mahomes was taken 10th overall, we picked 23rd. I'd say more than a couple HC's out there liked Mahomes, wouldn't you?
No idea what the licking my wounds reference is. Why can't anyone disagree with you without some other motive attached to it. This isn't the first time I've stated this anyway, others have made reference to McAdoo forecasting Mahomes and my response was the same to them - i'm sure a bunch of people liked Mahomes, he wasn't a 2nd rounder.
The goalposts aren't moving, dude. You are acting like Mahomes and Allen were no-brainers that any coach would have wanted. But I'm pointing out that they were both drafted later in their respective drafts than DANIEL JONES was picked in his draft.
Please try to follow along.
No need to be an asshole. I disagree with you, live with it.
QB's taken at 7 and 10 (Allen and Mahomes) had interest from coaches and executives other than McAdoo and Shurmur. The fact that you have a problem with that statement is alarming. I will give them credit for advocating to move on from Eli, I will not give them credit for thinking 2 QB's with a handful of elite attributes would be good NFL QB's.
Remember what I said earlier about licking your wounds?
This is your go-to when you're in over your head in an actual debate - call the other person an asshole.
I have my doubts that he will come back and be good in the areas he was weak in, pre-injury. (Namely - pass pro & grinding yards). The gritty yards stuff I've kind of given up on with him - he's not that style RB. But he needs to be a great pass blocker.
I think he is his own worst critic and wears it on his sleeve but I dont consider that mentally soft he just needs to channel it in a positive manner. Maybe post injury he does reinvent himself a little. But I see why you have your stance ... He knows he has to improve and he seems to be a person that can self reflect and grow, we will see.
This was you a week before the draft.
At # 2
bw in dc : 4/19/2018 11:12 am : link
I'm out of on Mayfield, Barkley and Nelson.
And, regrettably, I'm close to being out of Rosen and Allen.
There is some revisionist history going on here. I guess we don't have a full I'm totally out on Allen, but you are framing it like you thought he was some sure thing.
Hey Zeke. Not sure how this applies to what I was saying above about how valuable Allan has become.
But since this is a call out, I would need to see the full body of the thread to see what the discussion cadence was.
I recall being convinced QB was the path for NYG to go; and perhaps thought Darnold was the safest pick at the time..?
I did like Rosen but had major issues with his medical (concussions and other injuries). I recall being ultra impressed with Allen's pro day and his big upside. I'll check back what my thought process was...
Only guy I was a hard no on was Rosen. Pretty crazy that it isn’t even injuries that has brought him to where he is. He fizzled out faster than Haskins.
Yes, but the struggle/debate was whether Allen's low completion % was poor mechanics poor mechanics/Wyoming's mediocre talent or Wyoming's mediocre talent. It was a very tough read.
I think one of the counters was Brett Favre who had a pretty subpar completion % at S.Miss. And like Allen he had a howitzer. But through some good tutoring - Holmgren/Reid/etc - Favre's accuracy got better.
Honest question - what do you consider long term for a QB in today's NFL? People say similar things about Lamar Jackson, but in the meantime the Ravens continue to compete with him.
I'm not sure it's realistic or even preferable to look for Eli/Roethlisberger/Rivers type careers out of QBs anymore.
With Jackson it’s a no but Allen has a shot.
... Also, settling for 2 yards isn't getting us anywhere - we just saw that with Gallman.
Not sure I understand this comment. Gallman averaged 4.6 YPC last season 2020. That's pretty decent.
Petulance.
But you're the one who repeatedly resorts to calling others assholes. Lick away, champ.
With Jackson it’s a no but Allen has a shot.
If you can take Barkley off the field on 3rd down by blitzing and knowing his pass protection is a hole in his game, are you getting your money's worth?
Or is it only the holes in the game of the guys we didn't draft that matters?
My suggestion is to stop trying to be right all the time and actually listen to what people say. You’d fine my line of thinking isn’t far off from yours. Where we differ is how much you love rehashing it where I’ve moved on.
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impossible to know what kind of difference the coaching has or hasn't made from Shurmur to Judge.
... Also, settling for 2 yards isn't getting us anywhere - we just saw that with Gallman.
Not sure I understand this comment. Gallman averaged 4.6 YPC last season 2020. That's pretty decent.
He left so many yards on the field it became frustrating to watch for me. Tough runner but just not good enough for a feature role. Decent backup but he can’t really catch so he’s kind of in a tough spot in terms of his overall value.
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but I’d say contract #2 is long term and that would be the concern with both players. Both are getting $40m+ per year and both seem to be limited in games where they aren’t effective on the ground. So if they scale back the running are you getting your money’s worth?
With Jackson it’s a no but Allen has a shot.
If you can take Barkley off the field on 3rd down by blitzing and knowing his pass protection is a hole in his game, are you getting your money's worth?
Or is it only the holes in the game of the guys we didn't draft that matters?
Maybe, maybe not, depends on his rehab and the coaching he gets. I’m not sold on him being a definitively bad blocker yet. But we arent going to be paying im $40m per year like the previously mentioned QBs so it’s less of an issue. Everyone is scared of this record breaking 2nd Barkley contract and I’ll just wait until I see the numbers before I freak out, if it even happens.
So here we are, three years later, armed with hindsight and perspective to judge the quality of the pick and to learn from it. So three years in how did picking Barkley work out for the Giants? I mean come on...it's objectively been a disaster and an object lesson on how not to allocate resources.
It is absolutely a relevant topic of discussion right now.
So here we are, three years later, armed with hindsight and perspective to judge the quality of the pick and to learn from it. So three years in how did picking Barkley work out for the Giants? I mean come on...it's objectively been a disaster and an object lesson on how not to allocate resources.
It is absolutely a relevant topic of discussion right now.
Of course it is. Also the 5th year option is part of recent discussion to boot.
And it’s always an option of a BBI poster to move along to another thread...
Barkley played at the NFL level very well from day one (outside of injury) so that conversation is squarely about the return on investment. Yes it seems to be poor based on so many other fuck ups before/after him. Whether you get every single poster on BBI to admit it or not is really the only question left. And even if you did we’d still have threads on it. That’s what I mean by I moved on, there’s literally nothing more to say on it. New coach, new executive, and all signs point to a new way of doing things.
I asked earlier about why there hasn’t been more discussion on the offseason we’ve had and don’t think I got an answer. I’m genuinely perplexed by it. Instead it’s days worth of Barkley posts repeating the same thing over and over, I’ll never understand it.
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In comment 15206195 UConn4523 said:
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but I’d say contract #2 is long term and that would be the concern with both players. Both are getting $40m+ per year and both seem to be limited in games where they aren’t effective on the ground. So if they scale back the running are you getting your money’s worth?
With Jackson it’s a no but Allen has a shot.
If you can take Barkley off the field on 3rd down by blitzing and knowing his pass protection is a hole in his game, are you getting your money's worth?
Or is it only the holes in the game of the guys we didn't draft that matters?
Maybe, maybe not, depends on his rehab and the coaching he gets. I’m not sold on him being a definitively bad blocker yet. But we arent going to be paying im $40m per year like the previously mentioned QBs so it’s less of an issue. Everyone is scared of this record breaking 2nd Barkley contract and I’ll just wait until I see the numbers before I freak out, if it even happens.
He is a bad blocker right now.
You're using right now to judge Jackson and Allen.
I'm not sure why this is complicated.
Again, take a step back and stop trying to one up me. Barkley has a lot to prove this year, I genuinely have no idea what else you want from me.
Barkley played at the NFL level very well from day one (outside of injury) so that conversation is squarely about the return on investment. Yes it seems to be poor based on so many other fuck ups before/after him. Whether you get every single poster on BBI to admit it or not is really the only question left. And even if you did we’d still have threads on it. That’s what I mean by I moved on, there’s literally nothing more to say on it. New coach, new executive, and all signs point to a new way of doing things.
I asked earlier about why there hasn’t been more discussion on the offseason we’ve had and don’t think I got an answer. I’m genuinely perplexed by it. Instead it’s days worth of Barkley posts repeating the same thing over and over, I’ll never understand it.
I don't understand why so many want to dismiss injury as part of their defense of Barkley. One of the primary reasons to not draft a RB highly is their susceptibility to injury. The very risk that some have been wary of has presented itself with Barkley.
That doesn't mean that he won't still be an amazing player, but it does mean that we lost part of one season and most of another because he plays a position that tends to get injured more than most, and that risk was very clearly visible before choosing him.
I think Barkley is probably still the pick at #2 in 2018 even knowing the injuries because he wasn't drafted with a rebuild in mind; he was drafted with a mindset that hadn't yet arrived at a rebuild. But just dismissing the injuries is silly - it's central to the risk of drafting RBs highly.
Again, take a step back and stop trying to one up me. Barkley has a lot to prove this year, I genuinely have no idea what else you want from me.
You're missing my point. You want to throw Jackson and Allen away right now for what they haven't proven they can do - that they can't be effective QBs when the running game is taken away - but you want to extend optimism for what Barkley hasn't proven he can do yet, either - be an effective blocker when called upon.
All three of the players we're discussing have weaknesses. It's ok to acknowledge that Barkley needs to improve in his area to justify defending him against players who you rightfully pointed out need to improve in their area of weakness as well.
It's almost as if giving any positive outlook has to be tempered by saying what a shitty job was done in 2018. A constant reminder. Hell, one poster thinks 2018 is the "reason we suck today" when if you really want to dwell on the past, 2014 through 2019 brought it's own set of issues. There's not a clean and easy answer on why we've had really poor years, yet that's what we're being told continually.
I agree with you about both of them - I think Allen has a more well-rounded game, especially because he has the sort of arm that could transition to being a pocket passer. Jackson has always felt a little bit more gimmicky to me, so taking away his legs and forcing him to be purely a passer is a bigger problem with him.
But Barkley also has issues. A RB whose strongest differentiating trait is his receiving ability needs to not be a liability in pass protection. If we have to take SB off the field on 3rd down, that really sucks. And if leaving him on the field on 3rd down will get DJ killed, that also sucks. He needs to get so much better in that area.
It bothered me that the Giants locked in on Barkley being the Gold Jacket. There was another Gold Jacket available too.
But if you're a business looking at revenue projections and growth opportunities, Barkley's the pick. No surprise.
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I asked earlier about why there hasn’t been more discussion on the offseason we’ve had and don’t think I got an answer. I’m genuinely perplexed by it. Instead it’s days worth of Barkley posts repeating the same thing over and over, I’ll never understand it.
It's almost as if giving any positive outlook has to be tempered by saying what a shitty job was done in 2018. A constant reminder. Hell, one poster thinks 2018 is the "reason we suck today" when if you really want to dwell on the past, 2014 through 2019 brought it's own set of issues. There's not a clean and easy answer on why we've had really poor years, yet that's what we're being told continually.
Then tell your view on why the Giants have had really poor years. Start the thread and we will comment on your OP.
Or perhaps just create a positive thread on another topic and let folks join in if it’s interesting.
What do you want to talk about?
It's almost as if giving any positive outlook has to be tempered by saying what a shitty job was done in 2018. A constant reminder. Hell, one poster thinks 2018 is the "reason we suck today" when if you really want to dwell on the past, 2014 through 2019 brought it's own set of issues. There's not a clean and easy answer on why we've had really poor years, yet that's what we're being told continually.
2018 was the "Hail Mary" year that's why it gets constant attention. Instead of cutting the umbilical cord with Eli, Mara hired a pro Eli consultant in Ernie, who hired a pro-Eli GM in Gettleman, who hired a pro Eli HC in Shurmur. And the "Eli Revenge Tour" was hatched.
This cost the organization valuable time, money and progress. Now, you will look the other way because we don't have actual audio or video to prove this out, but this was a major setback. And the Barkley pick perpetuated it...
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It's almost as if giving any positive outlook has to be tempered by saying what a shitty job was done in 2018. A constant reminder. Hell, one poster thinks 2018 is the "reason we suck today" when if you really want to dwell on the past, 2014 through 2019 brought it's own set of issues. There's not a clean and easy answer on why we've had really poor years, yet that's what we're being told continually.
2018 was the "Hail Mary" year that's why it gets constant attention. Instead of cutting the umbilical cord with Eli, Mara hired a pro Eli consultant in Ernie, who hired a pro-Eli GM in Gettleman, who hired a pro Eli HC in Shurmur. And the "Eli Revenge Tour" was hatched.
This cost the organization valuable time, money and progress. Now, you will look the other way because we don't have actual audio or video to prove this out, but this was a major setback. And the Barkley pick perpetuated it...
I tend to agree that 2018 gets a lot of attention because it really was the blank slate year...the franchise had a new GM and a new coach, it had decent cap space, a great draft position but a poor overall roster with a few decent veterans that could have ben built around or disposed of for other value.
Would they bounce back? Would they just extend the pain? Would they put together a cohesive plan to rebuild or would they just miss it? What was next...
And what we got was disaster free agent signings, poor use of draft picks, a crappy assessment of the roster, keeping a clearly declining QB on the roster, panicking soon thereafter by unloading veterans and reaching for a QB, and trading away draft picks when they should have been accumulating them.
The last 12 months or so has been about reconstructing from the crappy rebuilding disaster that took place in 2018 and 2019. Unfortunately that now seems to be an expensive process as the ownership and the fans both expect timelier results. So now a lot of “extra” money has flowed into the hands of LW, Golladay, Jackson, etc in an effort to see if more than 6 wins can be achieved before the franchise has to make extension decisions on both Barkley and Jones.
The good news is at least we know Coach Judge is far more involved now in fixing this trainwreck. At least we think it’s good news, but that’s mostly because we know who else is involved.
Like sands thru the hourglass, so are the days of our lives...
Gettleman chose to use an extraordinary valuable resource on a running back, declared he was going to build from the inside out, and that running the ball was going to be at the center of the offense.
And the run game and the offense have been at best average and at worst horrendous.
Everything the Giants did was wrong. Wrong GM, wrong coach, wrong quarterback.
The echoes of that offseason continue to ripple out and impact decision making. Even the Golladay signing appears to have been executed with an eye towards allowing the QB we overdrafted in desperation an opportunity to prove himself. Personally I don't think any rebuild is going to truly start until we move on from Barkley and especially Jones.
That offseason was, in my view, the biggest disaster I've seen in three decades of following the team.
Considering the thread was about Barkley and if he can bounce back, why would it delve into the same old tired shit?
To just keep whining and bitching??
And then the guy goes out and proves EVERYONE right by having one of the greatest, if not the greatest, rookie RB season in the 120 year history of the entire NFL..Then he has a debilitating HAS the next year and still ekes out a thousand.ACL last year
It goes on and on and on and on..Let this go already..I may have to take my yearly sabbatical from here earlier than usual, probably right after the draft..
You have to go in one direction or the other. In hindsight, it would've been "smarter" from a sheers wins and losses standpoint to move on in 2018.
OTOH, Eli Manning is a legend with 2 Super Bowl MVPs and a special player in pro football history. Arguably our all time franchise QB. I'm OK taking a risk to give him another shot if he wanted to keep playing at 38. Just like I'm OK taking a risk on Barkley being one of the greatest prospects at any position, ever.
As I said above, I wanted Q.Nelson. But I am not going to hold some kind of permanent grudge, or expect these guys to get everything right, all the time. To my eye, the Giants have something going now with Mara, DG, Judge & crew. It's all the parts fitting together. It works. And the Giants are now one of the cool destination teams.
They took a risk on an all time great QB and RB prospect. It was understandable. It didn't work out. But to act as if they are unfit to ever be taken seriously again is fan bullshit.
Everything the Giants did was wrong. Wrong GM, wrong coach, wrong quarterback.
The echoes of that offseason continue to ripple out and impact decision making. Even the Golladay signing appears to have been executed with an eye towards allowing the QB we overdrafted in desperation an opportunity to prove himself. Personally I don't think any rebuild is going to truly start until we move on from Barkley and especially Jones.
That offseason was, in my view, the biggest disaster I've seen in three decades of following the team.
Hmm let’s play it your way then. Let’s say Mara hires Louis Riddick in 2018. They release Eli, which we now know and we surely suspected then they were never going to do that. But it’s a hypothetical so let’s assume they do.
Who are you taking at 2? Darnold? Rosen? Allen? Lamar? Surely, hindsight dictates you say either Lamar or Allen. Earlier in this thread, I said how do you know Allen would be what he is with the Giants.? I believe the post was called hackneyed or some such nonsense. Fact is, we don’t know beforehand. We only know what we know when we know it.
Allen was considered a strong-armed athletic kid who had struggles with accuracy. There were concerns about his level of competition as Wyoming isn’t exactly a college football powerhouse.
Lamar Jackson was considered an ultra athletic, good arm, spread type quarterback. There were concerns about his slight frame and his ability to make NFL throws in tight windows.
But now we know that Allen’s accuracy issues improved in his 3rd year and Lamar landed in a great system with an excellent offensive rushing attack that utilizes his talents effectively. So now of course, it looks like one of them should have been the pick over Barkley.
Unfortunately we don’t have a crystal ball available to Giants’ management. They tried to fix the OL in free agency with Solder and Omameh. They should have moved Flowers inside and gotten a veteran right tackle. They should have found a center better than Jon Halapio.
Hindsight is always 20/20.
2. Taking a RB at #2 overall is a fireable offense that should never happen due to positional value, also setting us back 3-5 years.
3. This egregious combination of error resulted in the Giants having to reach for a QB.
4. Judge had to come in and fix everything and is now pretty much in charge, while Gettleman has been resigned to a figurehead, and that's why you're seeing an improvement in the roster.
5. Barkley should not be given a second contract, and we need to get rid of Jones.
Am I in the ballpark?
I'm a huge DG critic, but I think they win another game or two if he played the full season.
In particular, nobody told anybody to stick with Eli. The fact is the Giants actually started to edge toward moving on past Eli when they selected Davis Webb in 2017. And the day they started Geno Smith ahead of Eli was supposed to have been THE end of the Eli era with the Giants. The irony is that if the Giants had just started Webb that day, no matter how bad he might have been, McAdoo and Reese likely would not have lost their jobs. But the Giants were going to draft a QB at what was supposed to be the QB loaded 2018 draft and were going to need a bridge QB and wanted to see if Smith would do in that role.
But the fan base blew up and Mara saw he had a potential PR disaster on his hands and cleaned house and Eli got his job back at least for the rest of the season. Still, the Giants had every intention of taking a QB with the #2 pick in the 2018 draft. Certainly no team did more due diligence on the QBs that year than the Giants. Indeed, for the longest time that draft class was looked at kind of like this year's with talk of as many as QBs going in the first 4-5 picks.
However, somewhere late in the process, the league, including the Giants soured on the QB class. Remember that quite literally until 3-4 days before the draft nobody but nobody was talking about Mayfield as a potential #1 pick. In fact, there were a lot of people who weren't even talking about his as a likely top ten pick at the time.
I recall Eric reporting on a somewhat unusual meeting of the Giants braintrust about ten days before the draft. Tisch flew in from LA. In retrospect I have speculated that what happened in the meeting was that the personnel people broke the news to ownership that they just didn't feel that any of the QBs were worth the second pick and they were recommending taking Barclay, the best player in the draft, instead.
I remember too when the Giants did select Barclay being very disappointed. And I remember saying to myself that I was going to be really pissed if the other QBs then went 3-4-5. They didn't. The real tell was that Denver, which needed a QB much more desperately than the Giants also passed on the QBs and nobody was willing to trade up until the later into the top ten.
I kind of chuckle when people bitch about the Barclay pick as not reflecting 'positional value' which is just a fancy or delusional way of saying we should have reached for another position. I kind of chuckle too when I hear people say the 'other position' we should have taken was an OG given that that position is so valued that a true collegiate OG has been taken with a top 5 pick since the mid-1970s.
At that point having been given a bag of lemons the Giants decided to make lemonade. They had decided to keep Eli around as the bridge QB. Just maybe with a the addition of star like Saquon and a little luck they could bounce back with Eli. In fact, the offense wasn't bad that year. Eli actually had one of the better years of his career and the Giants led the NFC East in scoring, but the defense wasn't very good at all - the fact that BJ Hill was second on the team in sacks probably says it all - and it ended up being another disappointing year.
Did it all set the Giants back? It certainly didn't move the goalposts forward. But its hard to see how selecting Darnold or Rosen at #2 was going to advance anything. And you have to dig deep into the revisionist bag to think that the Giants should have taken Josh Allen at that point because nobody in the league was going to take him at #2 at that time. Sure he could throw the ball through a brick wall but the book on him was that too often he couldn't hit the wall!
While I have never been a big fan of Gettleman my sense is if anything the FO maybe should be commended for not panicking and taking a QB just for the sake of taking one and settling on the best player in the draft. has it worked out the way we hoped. Obviously, but welcome to the wild, wacky world of the NFL.
My own sense, having lived through the downturns in the 1970s and 1990s is that is a cool time to be a Giants fan. We have a young QB with some tools; we have some him some weapons (hopefully); we have the makings of a pretty good D; and with a deep talented draft coming up in 27 days we have a chance to add 2-3 players that can fill in some important gaps. Hang in there guys!!
He’s not a bank ;)
I have two minor critiques: 1. I don't think Barkley has proven to the best player in the draft. Ignoring positional value, I think Nelson has. And yes, injuries have played a role here for Barkley. I don't think the Giants were proven right in their prediction that Barkley would be the best player in the draft. 2. The people who picked Rosen/Darnold - the people who wasted those valuable picks - have been fired. IMO, the 2018 draft was a prime chance to catapult the franchise forward into a contender. I don't gain a lot of comfort in "well we could have done worse".
I know these two are a little adjacent to your point, so I'm not critiquing you. I enjoyed your post and am glad someone else agrees Eli wasn't rammed down DG's throat!
You have to go in one direction or the other. In hindsight, it would've been "smarter" from a sheers wins and losses standpoint to move on in 2018.
OTOH, Eli Manning is a legend with 2 Super Bowl MVPs and a special player in pro football history. Arguably our all time franchise QB. I'm OK taking a risk to give him another shot if he wanted to keep playing at 38. Just like I'm OK taking a risk on Barkley being one of the greatest prospects at any position, ever.
As I said above, I wanted Q.Nelson. But I am not going to hold some kind of permanent grudge, or expect these guys to get everything right, all the time. To my eye, the Giants have something going now with Mara, DG, Judge & crew. It's all the parts fitting together. It works. And the Giants are now one of the cool destination teams.
They took a risk on an all time great QB and RB prospect. It was understandable. It didn't work out. But to act as if they are unfit to ever be taken seriously again is fan bullshit.
I'll give you that. Did I believe Eli had another SB in him? No, but DG/Mara did, fine. Go get him the pieces to win. Then they fucking drafted Daniel Jones! I mean what the hell are you doing? That was dipping your toe in the water of rebuilding but Eli is still here. That was a terrible mistake which I think Mara and DG would agree with now.
Colin I think there are some things that may be off in your writeup. While 2017 was a hairball of a mess with the Eli benching and all, the new regime assessed him early on in 2018 and decided to keep Eli in place. You can call it a bridge QB or whatever, but he was their starter.
Once that happened Getts wasn't interested in the QBs in the draft any longer or possibly never really was. They didn't just change their mind to Barkley at the last minute. He was going to be the pick for a while and it was an easy decision for the GM.
And to the extent he was already picked, then the Giants were turning to Bradley Chubb. You can talk all you want about revisiting things with a Guard or one of the QBs, but that is not what was going to happen.
1. Ownership made a key personnel decision (building around a forked quarterback) based on PR
2. Front office soured on the quarterback class (a class which contained future MVP Lamar Jackson and MVP candidate Josh Allen)
3. Front office identified Barkley as the best player in the draft (he wasn't even close)
As for my view being revisionist, I'd go back and find more posts I made saying these things before we drafted Barkley, but then I'd just be accused of wanting to be right instead of just being a good fan.
All Colin did was describe the incompetence.
The Eli mistake was made starting in 2016. That the team needed so much talent precisely in the window of a QB transition was the accumulation of mistakes made from 2010 onwards. ( I view 2011 SB win as a false indicator on how much was flawed at the time)
The Macadoo decision was as risky as the Judge decision...a choice of an outsider to Jints Central in the key role
The Eli mistake was made starting in 2016. That the team needed so much talent precisely in the window of a QB transition was the accumulation of mistakes made from 2010 onwards. ( I view 2011 SB win as a false indicator on how much was flawed at the time)
The Macadoo decision was as risky as the Judge decision...a choice of an outsider to Jints Central in the key role
It really was showing itself clearly in 2016 with Eli. Everybody likes to point to the Green Bay playoff game as him being the only one to show up, but he was showing a decent decline in his game as that season went along.
Understandably difficult to move on from him after a playoff year, but this Front Office has difficulty staying ahead of the situation as we know.
You think what they did was the best they could realistically do?
Seriously?
But they really didn't make the best of it, did they?
And how dare they be given a team that had at least enough talent to win 11 games just a year before, decent enough cap space to sign Solder, Ogletree and litany of other free agents and a full complement of draft picks and the #2 overall.
What a terrible hand they were dealt in 2018...
They did not have the benefit of hindsight. Nobody does except BBI.
Three scenarios were possible in 2018, in reality:
1. Take a QB (the didn't value the QB's)
2. Take Barkley (They did this)
3. Trade down and take Chubb or Nelson (don't know if the offers or value were there, so any speculation is just that.)
If I'm trading out of #2 overall, it better involve a first rounder. The trade up to #3 shows that it likely didn't.
I'll share a funny story I couldn't before the Barkley pick. Someone posted a video here showing SB performing at the Combines, and Giants scouts beaming in what looked like love at first sight. I mentioned this to a source of mine and got an "LOL, good eye!" reply of sorts indicating he was in the mix at #2. I think he was the easily the best player in that draft, and still have no real issue with the pick. He just has to stay healthy and grow into his talent level. I was initially disappointed the Giants passed on Darnold, but they weren't the only team that missed on Josh Allen (QB).
All in all, their top decisions need to bear fruit, soon.
In particular, nobody told anybody to stick with Eli. The fact is the Giants actually started to edge toward moving on past Eli when they selected Davis Webb in 2017. And the day they started Geno Smith ahead of Eli was supposed to have been THE end of the Eli era with the Giants. The irony is that if the Giants had just started Webb that day, no matter how bad he might have been, McAdoo and Reese likely would not have lost their jobs. But the Giants were going to draft a QB at what was supposed to be the QB loaded 2018 draft and were going to need a bridge QB and wanted to see if Smith would do in that role.
But the fan base blew up and Mara saw he had a potential PR disaster on his hands and cleaned house and Eli got his job back at least for the rest of the season. Still, the Giants had every intention of taking a QB with the #2 pick in the 2018 draft. Certainly no team did more due diligence on the QBs that year than the Giants. Indeed, for the longest time that draft class was looked at kind of like this year's with talk of as many as QBs going in the first 4-5 picks.
So after 2018 ended, this was the timeline:
-- Mara hires Accorsi, who drafted Eli, to conduct a so called expansive GM search.
-- But as expected, Accorsi hires Gettleman in about ten minutes. The former Director of Player Personnel under Accorsi and who happens to love Eli too.
-- Gettleman and Mara hire Shurman, who had just rejuvenated the career Case Keenum in Minnesota.
-- And then shortly after being hired, Gettleman and Shurman, after they supposedly watched all of this video of Eli, magically concluded that Eli had plenty left in the tank and could lead the Giants to wins and playoff appearances.
So you think all of those pro-Eli hires and situations were just coincidence, right?
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He's not describing incompetence, he's describing evaluators that made the best of the hand they were dealt (in reality).
You think what they did was the best they could realistically do?
Seriously?
Look, when you think football hasn't changed "since 1935" taking a RB at #2 is what you get...
I've been a Giant fan 50+ years since I was a kid sitting in the upper deck at Yankee Stadium 1.0 with my father and uncles.
Trust me this is NOT a cool time to be a Giant fan.
1984-1990 was a cool time to be a Giant fan. The two playoff runs in the Eli years were a cool time to be a Giant fan. The first 12 games of the 2008 regular season was a cool time to be a Giant fan. The two Fassel playoff wins were a cool time to be a Giant fan.
16-46 since their last winning season, 9 years since their last playoff win, with an unproven questionable QB going into his 3rd year is NOT a cool time to be a Giant fan.
Maybe Joe Judge can change that. Maybe all the outside free agents with injury histories stay healthy this year. Maybe 2022 will be a cool time to be a Giant fan. I hope so.
I've been a Giant fan 50+ years since I was a kid sitting in the upper deck at Yankee Stadium 1.0 with my father and uncles.
Trust me this is NOT a cool time to be a Giant fan.
1984-1990 was a cool time to be a Giant fan. The two playoff runs in the Eli years were a cool time to be a Giant fan. The first 12 games of the 2008 regular season was a cool time to be a Giant fan. The two Fassel playoff wins were a cool time to be a Giant fan.
16-46 since their last winning season, 9 years since their last playoff win, with an unproven questionable QB going into his 3rd year is NOT a cool time to be a Giant fan.
Maybe Joe Judge can change that. Maybe all the outside free agents with injury histories stay healthy this year. Maybe 2022 will be a cool time to be a Giant fan. I hope so.
People aren't defending. They are just getting sick and tired of listening to this endless argument that goes in circles. We get it already.
And yes "you know what I'm sick and tired of? 15-33 yuk yuk yuk..."
We get it.
They did not have the benefit of hindsight. Nobody does except BBI.
Three scenarios were possible in 2018, in reality:
1. Take a QB (the didn't value the QB's)
2. Take Barkley (They did this)
3. Trade down and take Chubb or Nelson (don't know if the offers or value were there, so any speculation is just that.)
They sure did a lot of reacting. Maybe a little forward thinking and planning would help every now and then...
And the Giants aren't a Pop Warner team. They are a major corporation. I would again urge people to understand that is how the team is run. What is best for business, isn't necessarily what's best for the fan and it doesn't mean they're incompetent morons.
For those that like to live in the past and refuse to let management forget their perceived missteps - there are also 4 trophies in that case! These guys have gotten it right before.
And - as I said - it looks like they've gotten it right again with Judge. There is excitement around this team, and they are now a destination stop for UFA's. They deserve credit for that.
Do they? So what is this, a ten year long game?
When they're out next year or the year after looking for a new quarterback will that be part of the plan too?
No, I think the GM search by Accorsi was fake...
I've been a Giant fan 50+ years since I was a kid sitting in the upper deck at Yankee Stadium 1.0 with my father and uncles.
Trust me this is NOT a cool time to be a Giant fan.
1984-1990 was a cool time to be a Giant fan. The two playoff runs in the Eli years were a cool time to be a Giant fan. The first 12 games of the 2008 regular season was a cool time to be a Giant fan. The two Fassel playoff wins were a cool time to be a Giant fan.
16-46 since their last winning season, 9 years since their last playoff win, with an unproven questionable QB going into his 3rd year is NOT a cool time to be a Giant fan.
Maybe Joe Judge can change that. Maybe all the outside free agents with injury histories stay healthy this year. Maybe 2022 will be a cool time to be a Giant fan. I hope so.
I don't defend 15-33, I just don't obsess over it. It happened already, nothing I can do about it. I'd ask if you are looking forward to this upcoming season but I think I already know the answer to it.
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was faked.
No, I think the GM search by Accorsi was fake...
Right, we should have gone outside the box, like John Dorsey. Remind me, who did we miss out on at GM due to this egregious nepotism?
I'm good with Daniel Jones over that choice, even with hindsight, thanks.
It's not about me. So what were the Giants doing for the last several year that makes you so confident they have planned this out well?
1. Ownership made a key personnel decision (building around a forked quarterback) based on PR
2. Front office soured on the quarterback class (a class which contained future MVP Lamar Jackson and MVP candidate Josh Allen)
3. Front office identified Barkley as the best player in the draft (he wasn't even close)
As for my view being revisionist, I'd go back and find more posts I made saying these things before we drafted Barkley, but then I'd just be accused of wanting to be right instead of just being a good fan.
All Colin did was describe the incompetence.
Your disappointment now manifests itself in shitty reading comprehension.
Yay us.
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In comment 15206877 Britt in VA said:
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was faked.
No, I think the GM search by Accorsi was fake...
Right, we should have gone outside the box, like John Dorsey. Remind me, who did we miss out on at GM due to this egregious nepotism?
I'm not a Dorsey guy. But I doubt he could have done worse than what Gettleman has done thus far.
So don't act like we got Bill Polian or Ozzie Newsome. We are 15-33 under this DG's "leadership"...
I'm good with Daniel Jones over that choice, even with hindsight, thanks.
I do recall thinking we should inquire about trading for Rosen when it was clear he was on the market - that is true. I honestly don't recall the specifics of the idea.
Hey, I haven't seen the Giants play in a while, can anybody remind me of what their record is? Thanks.
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In comment 15206877 Britt in VA said:
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was faked.
No, I think the GM search by Accorsi was fake...
Right, we should have gone outside the box, like John Dorsey. Remind me, who did we miss out on at GM due to this egregious nepotism?
Remind me first, what is it that we gained by having Gettleman in place the last several years?
The organization was in rubble by the end of 2017.
Any different pick at #2 overall does not change or shift the needle on 15-33 significantly.
We'd still be right here, wondering and waiting for things to pan out.
Hey, I haven't seen the Giants play in a while, can anybody remind me of what their record is? Thanks.
Sure, it's still 15-33 under DG.
Do you really think we chose THE BEST GM candidate in the 2018 search? Do you really think cronyism wasn't at work?
The organization was in rubble by the end of 2017.
Any different pick at #2 overall does not change or shift the needle on 15-33 significantly.
We'd still be right here, wondering and waiting for things to pan out.
And people say I'm negative.
Imagine having this degree of fatalism, where this three year disaster is due to a series of unfortunate events that could not possibly have been avoided.
Shit, 15-33 was probably our ceiling.
The organization was in rubble by the end of 2017.
Any different pick at #2 overall does not change or shift the needle on 15-33 significantly.
We'd still be right here, wondering and waiting for things to pan out.
It was tied to one move, the move to hire Gettleman.
But let's wonder and wait...
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Hey, I haven't seen the Giants play in a while, can anybody remind me of what their record is? Thanks.
Sure, it's still 15-33 under DG.
Do you really think we chose THE BEST GM candidate in the 2018 search? Do you really think cronyism wasn't at work?
Well, here's a thorough list. Tell me who we should have taken.
2018 NFL General Manager Candidate Study - ( New Window )
And obviously the process has been slower than one would have hoped, but I think if you look hard enough you can see the outlines of a plan. They got their QB in 2019, they addressed the OL in 2020 and so far in 2021 they have filled two major holes at WR and at CB. Will it work? Who knows, only time will tell.
And yeah you play the hand you're dealt. People can howl at the moon until the cows come home about 2018. It was the hand we were dealt and people have to do all kinds of mental gymnastics to bitch about taking the best player in the draft. And anybody who says Barkley wasn't the best pure player in that draft is just full of you know what. He was and there wasn't a team in the league who would have taken Quentin Nelson over Barkley.
What's cool about this year is while we may have gotten a bad hand at #2 in 2018, we may be looking at a real nice hand at #11 this year. In fact if 5 QBs expected to go in the top ten the Giants could be looking at being able to get a top 5 prospect at a position of need with the 11th pick, In fact it is entirely possible they'll get a look at more than one top 5 type guy there on the 29th. (Which of course will set off a new round of WTF were they thinking by the guys who would have wanted someone other than the guy they do ultimately take or who simply bitch about whatever the Giants do simply for the sake of it.)
And to boot this year there appears to be some real quality depth in the draft on the second day at WR, CB and the OL in a year the Giants are probably looking to upgrade at WR, CB or the OL with their 2nd and 3rd round picks.
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In comment 15206877 Britt in VA said:
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was faked.
No, I think the GM search by Accorsi was fake...
Right, we should have gone outside the box, like John Dorsey. Remind me, who did we miss out on at GM due to this egregious nepotism?
That's a really hard question to answer because we don't know how comprehensive the list that preceded the search was (we know there were four finalists that interviewed, but it's likely that there was a more exhaustive list that got narrowed down to those four), how much of a priority Mara (and Tisch) placed on having their GM in place before other teams began their offseason work, etc., and we definitely aren't privy to some of the unlikely candidates that might have been on their radar (did anyone genuinely see Joe Judge as a legitimate HC option 15 months ago?). Asking fans to name an alternative isn't really fair - Mara and/or Accorsi are in a much better position to identify GM candidates than fans are.
What we do know is that this franchise has historically had a tendency to go with people that they're familiar with. And we also know that Mara (and Tisch) were leaning on Accorsi to help guide the GM search. Those two factors definitely make it seem like DG at a minimum was probably in pole position when the search began.
What we don't know is whether any other candidate ever really stood a chance and DG just bested them all through the search process, or if it was DG's job to lose and the rest was window dressing.
It doesn't really matter now - I would argue that regardless of what level of cronyism may or may not have been in play at the time when DG was hired, it certainly appears that the front office is now thinking a bit more outside the box than they have in the past. I credit much of that to Judge, but not necessarily because of his direct influence (though that may be a big part of it); rather, I think Mara is seeing the benefit that can come with bringing in some fresh perspective and looks to be embracing that more now.
Whether DG should get any credit for that, or whether it's a result of pulling some power away from DG, we'll probably never know. And as long as the product on the field improves, it doesn't really matter anyway.
Pretty much.
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to any one move.
The organization was in rubble by the end of 2017.
Any different pick at #2 overall does not change or shift the needle on 15-33 significantly.
We'd still be right here, wondering and waiting for things to pan out.
It was tied to one move, the move to hire Gettleman.
But let's wonder and wait...
You guys playing the field and saying they have lost all credibility is what I disagree with.
The NFL is a tough business and they are running a massive corporation, not trying to organically put the best possible team on the field at all costs. I see PR being poo poo'd here. Fans have the luxury of poo pooing that stuff. Corporations do not. PR matters. Just one example of missing the boat.
There are 2 outcomes - either it works, or it fails. Playing the field and saying it wouldn't work doesn't make you a genius. It failed. But it was reasonable to give Eli a chance. It was reasonable to give Barkley a chance because guys like Gil Brandt - and many others - were calling him the best collegiate prospect ever.
And now they appear to have absolutely nailed the Judge hire, and things are looking very promising. So I'm supposed to walk badmouthing Giants management?
I just don't think the odds of pulling the card you need for an inside straight is the way to build a championship team.
I think hoping the unproven QB with an OL filled with rookies and unproven players will all of a sudden be good enough to be a playoff team and signing free agents at full retail price with injury histories and expecting them to stay healthy is the equivalent of that.
I'll be thrilled if I'm wrong. The reason threads like this exist is because all of us no matter which side we're on of these BBI debates are starving for a Giants team on the field to get excited about.
I do believe Joe Judge if given the time and proper support can build a championship team and that's a good start.
And I don’t agree that Barkley was a generational HB talent. It looked that way in 2018 but, leaving aside the injuries entirely, I doubt Saquon is a top 5 HB in the league today. He does not deliver what a top HB needs to deliver. He is a better version of Reggie Bush, which isn’t bad, but is not franchise player material.
You guys playing the field and saying they have lost all credibility is what I disagree with.
The NFL is a tough business and they are running a massive corporation, not trying to organically put the best possible team on the field at all costs. I see PR being poo poo'd here. Fans have the luxury of poo pooing that stuff. Corporations do not. PR matters. Just one example of missing the boat.
There are 2 outcomes - either it works, or it fails. Playing the field and saying it wouldn't work doesn't make you a genius. It failed. But it was reasonable to give Eli a chance. It was reasonable to give Barkley a chance because guys like Gil Brandt - and many others - were calling him the best collegiate prospect ever.
And now they appear to have absolutely nailed the Judge hire, and things are looking very promising. So I'm supposed to walk badmouthing Giants management?
Nobody said you have to badmouth Giants management, or us for that matter but you seem to...
Owning an NFL team team is a money printing press. There is ZERO chance of business failure and ZERO competition.
Owning an NFL team team is a money printing press. There is ZERO chance of business failure and ZERO competition.
I never said failure. Im talking about optimization which is something all major corporations obsess over.
Owning an NFL team team is a money printing press. There is ZERO chance of business failure and ZERO competition.
Exactly. Owning an NFL team isn't like owning an airline.
Your costs are basically fixed by the CBA and, outside of a situation like this pandemic, you are pretty much guaranteed a profit and increase in your franchise value every year.
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In comment 15206932 Britt in VA said:
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Hey, I haven't seen the Giants play in a while, can anybody remind me of what their record is? Thanks.
Sure, it's still 15-33 under DG.
Do you really think we chose THE BEST GM candidate in the 2018 search? Do you really think cronyism wasn't at work?
Well, here's a thorough list. Tell me who we should have taken. 2018 NFL General Manager Candidate Study - ( New Window )
The Gettleman hire was not an attempt to get the best candidate. It was two fold:
1) Find someone baptized in the "Giants Way.
2) And for Accorsi wanted to hire DG because he felt guilty about not recommending him over Reese. Which Accorsi said last summer in a podcast that was linked her at BBI.
So I would have hired someone completely unfamiliar with the "Giants Way", someone much younger, someone who understands modern football, and someone who doesn't act like a complete jackass when he stands up to represent the team.
That quote you found was an absolute masterpiece...
Just so, so stupid.
Jimmy Clownshoes in the house!!
Run the ball, stop the run, rush the passer... how much as Gettleman tried with that last one?
Come on FatMan in Charlotte...stop being a chucklehead and have some fun for a change.
Let's play a game...guess which hand I have the Rebuilding Plan in. Come on, guess...
I doubt it. FMIC, Britt, and the like aren't idiots. They know he's been a disaster. They just don't want to about it to themselves.
You can really feel it with Jones; they don't believe in him anymore than I do.
1) Find someone baptized in the "Giants Way.
2) And for Accorsi wanted to hire DG because he felt guilty about not recommending him over Reese. Which Accorsi said last summer in a podcast that was linked her at BBI.
So I would have hired someone completely unfamiliar with the "Giants Way", someone much younger, someone who understands modern football, and someone who doesn't act like a complete jackass when he stands up to represent the team.
Simply put, I think Mara hired Gettleman because he felt it would be the best path to winning with Eli in his twilight years.
Why do I have to say anything unequivocally? He's done some good, and some not so good, and some bad.
Do you like the pieces we have on defense right now? I do. Do you think this year's free agency has been good? I do. Do you think the past two drafts have been decent? I do.
I believe this team will compete soon. Guess I'm an idiot.
If you believe Gettleman has been a mixed bag, but things are trending upward, that’s a fair opinion.
I unequivocally disagree with him on Jones.
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The Gettleman hire was not an attempt to get the best candidate. It was two fold:
1) Find someone baptized in the "Giants Way.
2) And for Accorsi wanted to hire DG because he felt guilty about not recommending him over Reese. Which Accorsi said last summer in a podcast that was linked her at BBI.
So I would have hired someone completely unfamiliar with the "Giants Way", someone much younger, someone who understands modern football, and someone who doesn't act like a complete jackass when he stands up to represent the team.
Simply put, I think Mara hired Gettleman because he felt it would be the best path to winning with Eli in his twilight years.
Gettleman would have been fired long ago if it wasn't Mara driving the decisions on Eli or DJ. Not surprisingly, DG appears to have miraculously gotten better at his job since Judge and Garrett have been advising the brain trust.
That is why this draft is so important. It is the first significant re-test of the state of play in the Judge era. Hoping the parallel is that we have just completed the painful 1983 season and, in an anti-Orwellian sense, we have arrived back to the future and it is 1984 again...
But no one does that. The guys on this thread are some of DGs most vocal critics and even we admit that he has gotten some things right and brought in some good free agents as of late.
I am certain we would all like him retired ASAP because he has been what we would describe as a failure overall, while not being a failure on each step.
As to the buffoon stuff, and the gifs....whatever.
I dislike Gettleman because every year he’s been in charge the Giants have lost 10+ games. I guarantee I’ll like him and say nice things about him if the Giants win 10+ games.
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The Gettleman hire was not an attempt to get the best candidate. It was two fold:
1) Find someone baptized in the "Giants Way".
2) And for Accorsi wanted to hire DG because he felt guilty about not recommending him over Reese. Which Accorsi said last summer in a podcast that was linked her at BBI.
So I would have hired someone completely unfamiliar with the "Giants Way", someone much younger, someone who understands modern football, and someone who doesn't act like a complete jackass when he stands up to represent the team.
Simply put, I think Mara hired Gettleman because he felt it would be the best path to winning with Eli in his twilight years.
Yes, you are correct. I should have made that more clear. That was sort of rolled up in the "Giants Way" piece.
A lot of his supporters now have distanced themselves or just attack his critics and say they really don’t care if he goes. Or they prop up Judge in lieu of stating the front office is getting better. Whatever...
I dislike Gettleman because every year he’s been in charge the Giants have lost 10+ games. I guarantee I’ll like him and say nice things about him if the Giants win 10+ games.
I'll add one thing - he's also a real jerk. If he was a good guy or just a normal person I wouldn't be taking as many shots at him as I do. But to be this bad at his job and be an asshole to boot...fuck that guy.
I think back to all the threads here claiming there's no such thing as a 3 year re-build, teams re-tool on the fly, Manning has plenty left in the tank -- those have aged fabulously.
If we had a crystal ball during that 2018 offseason and knew:
- The Giants would lose 10+ games all three years
- They'd be on their 2nd coach
- Their no. 2 overall RB would be coming off an ACL tear and two consecutive injury plagued seasons
- Their no. 6 overall QB would be coming off an 11TD, 5-9 season
Would that sound successful?
I still believe that MOST teams are able to re-tool on the fly. I didn't make up the phrase "from worst to first".
THIS team could not. It was in bad shape. Far worse than I knew at the time.
So I can easily say now: I WAS WRONG!
But at the end of the day, who gives a shit? There's an equal chance all of these threads could look just as fabulous in three years I suppose.
The 2018 and 2019 draft classes were horrific, as were the free agency decisions those two years.
2018 and 2019 were, essentially, completely thrown away. We finally have a competent adult in the room influencing decisions, and that's great. But there are still two big pieces from those lost years on the roster, and their presence should not continue to impact decision making but it does.
The rebuild has yet to begin.
I think there’s a hell of a big line between mocking, and making fun.
But let’s call it mocking. He’s a public figure, with no real world connection to BBI, and getting made fun of on a fan website has literally zero impact on his life. Is this is a sensibility offending action to you?
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Not that I haven't participated in it, but I don't see the good in it, and am trying to keep from participating in it. Just me though.
I think there’s a hell of a big line between mocking, and making fun.
But let’s call it mocking. He’s a public figure, with no real world connection to BBI, and getting made fun of on a fan website has literally zero impact on his life. Is this is a sensibility offending action to you?
I don't see the big deal if I don't care for making fun of or mocking someone. I'm sure there are things in your life that you are more sensitive (right or wrong) that I am not.
I just don't see the good in it.
I don't want to hear any complaining about "victory laps" or "chest beating" when this shit gets turned around and all of these threads started getting brought up.
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In comment 15208237 crick n NC said:
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Not that I haven't participated in it, but I don't see the good in it, and am trying to keep from participating in it. Just me though.
I think there’s a hell of a big line between mocking, and making fun.
But let’s call it mocking. He’s a public figure, with no real world connection to BBI, and getting made fun of on a fan website has literally zero impact on his life. Is this is a sensibility offending action to you?
I don't see the big deal if I don't care for making fun of or mocking someone. I'm sure there are things in your life that you are more sensitive (right or wrong) that I am not.
I just don't see the good in it.
I believe that practiced behavior becomes the norm. Just because someone isn't around I don't thInk it's good to participate in making fun of or mocking in a way that they may not like. It seems dishonest to me, and I don't want to get into the practice where perhaps I make it a norm to make fun of or mock whether they are present or not.
I don't want to hear any complaining about "victory laps" or "chest beating" when this shit gets turned around and all of these threads started getting brought up.
You seem to definitively know how a lot of people feel. For a guy who guesses wrong a lot, you might want to dial that down.
I’ll be perfectly happy for you to bring up anything I’ve ever posted on this site. If/when a Gettleman constructed team wins more games than it loses I will be thrilled. I’ll be surprised, and I’ll be thrilled.
It won’t change that it took at a minimum four years, which is a bummer.
And for a guy who doesn’t care about right or wrong or how, I hope your victory lap and chest beating are especially unsatisfying for you.
I hope that's equally unsatisfying for you and your buddies.
And even if they do, it wouldn't make picking Barkley second any less foolish. That will be a bad decision forever.
I hope that's equally unsatisfying for you and your buddies.
That's the sad truth
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I want the Giants to be good again. I don't care how they get there. You guys only seem to care if they do it YOUR WAY. Any other way is no good.
I don't want to hear any complaining about "victory laps" or "chest beating" when this shit gets turned around and all of these threads started getting brought up.
You seem to definitively know how a lot of people feel. For a guy who guesses wrong a lot, you might want to dial that down.
I’ll be perfectly happy for you to bring up anything I’ve ever posted on this site. If/when a Gettleman constructed team wins more games than it loses I will be thrilled. I’ll be surprised, and I’ll be thrilled.
It won’t change that it took at a minimum four years, which is a bummer.
And for a guy who doesn’t care about right or wrong or how, I hope your victory lap and chest beating are especially unsatisfying for you.
A +.500 record is too low a bar. 2016 burned me, I thought we had a contender built. I'm also bearish on the ceiling of the core this team has, so I'm extra cautious. We need a couple seasons of competitive football before anointing the turnaround a success. People are so starved for non-shitty football that we're lowering the bar. There's too many teams that have a good season and then flounder (2017 Jacksonville, 2016 Giants, I'm sure we can go on).
The Ravens and Steelers are the models to shoot for. Maybe even the Rams and Saints. Competitive football teams every year like the 2005-2012 Giants. I'd even throw the recent Colts in there - I think they've done a great job of building a team despite struggles at the QB position.
I will be thrilled if this team goes 10-7 next year - and will give the DG and the Giants credit - but I'll also be a little cautious that we have the problem solved.
I hope that's equally unsatisfying for you and your buddies.
When the Giants win, I promise you Britt, your chest beating and victory lap will be the last thing on my or anyone else’s mind.
I don't want to hear any complaining about "victory laps" or "chest beating" when this shit gets turned around and all of these threads started getting brought up.
This is the irony ironies.
And for a guy who doesn’t care about right or wrong or how, I hope your victory lap and chest beating are especially unsatisfying for you.
A +.500 record is too low a bar. 2016 burned me, I thought we had a contender built. I'm also bearish on the ceiling of the core this team has, so I'm extra cautious. We need a couple seasons of competitive football before anointing the turnaround a success. People are so starved for non-shitty football that we're lowering the bar. There's too many teams that have a good season and then flounder (2017 Jacksonville, 2016 Giants, I'm sure we can go on).
I will be thrilled if this team goes 10-7 next year - and will give the DG and the Giants credit - but I'll also be a little cautious that we have the problem solved.
2016 Giants went on a crazy spending spree and an aging QB that barely beat teams on their way to 11-5. Macadoo seemed to make every right call when and when not to go for it. Jacksonville scored an inordinate amount of defensive TDs which is highly variable year to year. Luck does play into football.
I’m not saying he sucks and I’m never saying that I don’t love Barks as a Giant. Of course I want the Giants to win and be a great team. But even if we accept taking a RB at the 2, and I do not, but even if we do, has Barkley been a good 2nd over all pick or is he a disappointment?
Doesn't it always?
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In comment 15208285 christian said:
And for a guy who doesn’t care about right or wrong or how, I hope your victory lap and chest beating are especially unsatisfying for you.
A +.500 record is too low a bar. 2016 burned me, I thought we had a contender built. I'm also bearish on the ceiling of the core this team has, so I'm extra cautious. We need a couple seasons of competitive football before anointing the turnaround a success. People are so starved for non-shitty football that we're lowering the bar. There's too many teams that have a good season and then flounder (2017 Jacksonville, 2016 Giants, I'm sure we can go on).
I will be thrilled if this team goes 10-7 next year - and will give the DG and the Giants credit - but I'll also be a little cautious that we have the problem solved.
2016 Giants went on a crazy spending spree and an aging QB that barely beat teams on their way to 11-5. Macadoo seemed to make every right call when and when not to go for it. Jacksonville scored an inordinate amount of defensive TDs which is highly variable year to year. Luck does play into football.
Yeah, this is so true. I think this entire board was completely wrong about 2017, lol. I thought we had a contender but it was a mirage.
He's ineffectual. A talented open field runner, but the manner in which he's been used does little to actually help score more points and win games. His inability or unwillingness to block is also a huge problem given the quality of the quarterback in the pocket and the OL in general.
The Giants should either change the way they use him (more split wide, less in the backfield) or trade him.
The reason things devolve to criticizing Gettleman is that an honest assessment of Barkley naturally leads to the question of why he was picked where he was picked.
Not fond of it, but you have done it and you have to restrain yourself from doing it more often. And have to pass along to us that you think there is no good in it.
This is where the Church Lady would say, “Well, isn’t that special”...
I don't want to hear any complaining about "victory laps" or "chest beating" when this shit gets turned around and all of these threads started getting brought up.
What in the world would you go and take a victory lap for when the Giants turn this around? How foolish do you want to look?
Obviously the Giants will get better at some point, make the playoffs and possibly even go further. We all want it to happen and it will eventually.
But suggesting that would have had anything to do with some master rebuilding plan that was hatched by this GM in any of the last three years is comical at best. Or that the same posters that defended DG, then distanced themselves, and now say they don’t care if he gets fired or not as long as Judge is involved would have the nerve to create a post that says “See! I told you the Giants would win again and that this GM knows what he is doing!”.
Please do that actually...anybody taking a victory lap in any fashion will look moronic. Look forward to it...
I’m not saying he sucks and I’m never saying that I don’t love Barks as a Giant. Of course I want the Giants to win and be a great team. But even if we accept taking a RB at the 2, and I do not, but even if we do, has Barkley been a good 2nd over all pick or is he a disappointment?
No, he hasn’t been a good pick but mostly because of the injuries. But if he recovers well and produces again for us that will help.
He though will never be a good #2 overall pick for what this team was and had to do in 2018...
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Not that I haven't participated in it, but I don't see the good in it, and am trying to keep from participating in it. Just me though.
Not fond of it, but you have done it and you have to restrain yourself from doing it more often. And have to pass along to us that you think there is no good in it.
This is where the Church Lady would say, “Well, isn’t that special”...
I like mocking Gettleman. He brings it on himself with his arrogance and smugness. It's amazing that the Giants hired someone for their storied franchise who carries himself this way and is rarely buttoned up. So until the team starts winning, it's open season.
And it's in good fun, too, for me. The guy is also very entertaining...
The Giants have a history of lovable losers — Handley, McAdoo, Dave Brown, Cedric Jones, hell Ernie Accorsi had a good decade of being the butt of the joke.
The guy’s put together 3 straight 10 game losers. He’s most certainly in line for some ribbing.
Win some games and everyone will love him.
I hope Mara learned his lesson not to guide the team based on fan reaction because most of us are morons 😂. Most fan reactions are just empty threats which I'm sure Mara saw after supporting player's right to kneel. There were angry letters, but no impact to his bottom line.
To your point here, can't you argue this is exactly what they did in 2019? Took a QB for the sake of taking a QB instead of BPA?
I hope that Jones and Barkley are homerun picks, but the difference between being great at your job and mediocre is inconsistency. The messaging and application of the Giants roster management on a year to year basis has been inconsistent at best, which is why i think people question whether they are getting it right.
I think it's gotten more consistent under Judge, I'm looking forward to see how it comes together this year.
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But the fan base blew up and Mara saw he had a potential PR disaster on his hands and cleaned house and Eli got his job back at least for the rest of the season. Still, the Giants had every intention of taking a QB with the #2 pick in the 2018 draft. Certainly no team did more due diligence on the QBs that year than the Giants. Indeed, for the longest time that draft class was looked at kind of like this year's with talk of as many as QBs going in the first 4-5 picks.
I hope Mara learned his lesson not to guide the team based on fan reaction because most of us are morons 😂. Most fan reactions are just empty threats which I'm sure Mara saw after supporting player's right to kneel. There were angry letters, but no impact to his bottom line.
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While I have never been a big fan of Gettleman my sense is if anything the FO maybe should be commended for not panicking and taking a QB just for the sake of taking one and settling on the best player in the draft. has it worked out the way we hoped. Obviously, but welcome to the wild, wacky world of the NFL.
To your point here, can't you argue this is exactly what they did in 2019? Took a QB for the sake of taking a QB instead of BPA?
I hope that Jones and Barkley are homerun picks, but the difference between being great at your job and mediocre is inconsistency. The messaging and application of the Giants roster management on a year to year basis has been inconsistent at best, which is why i think people question whether they are getting it right.
I think it's gotten more consistent under Judge, I'm looking forward to see how it comes together this year.
BH: Not sure what lesson that would be. If you have an impending PR disaster of Titanic proportions and you fire your GM who the fan base generally hates anyway and the PR disaster disappears. Your point is?
Re Jones and the 6th pick; there's a pretty basic rule of BPA drafting and that is that if you need a QB and you like a QB then BPA doesn't count and you go get the QB. There's a reason that 9 of the 18 players taken with one of the first three picks in the past 6 years were QBs.
The Giants have a history of lovable losers — Handley, McAdoo, Dave Brown, Cedric Jones, hell Ernie Accorsi had a good decade of being the butt of the joke.
The guy’s put together 3 straight 10 game losers. He’s most certainly in line for some ribbing.
Win some games and everyone will love him.
I'm guessing this is in reference to me. I never said it was OOB for you or others, I said that I don't prefer mocking or making fun of in general, not just Gettleman. (it's not how I want to be treated even if I'm not around to hear it). What you do is your business, I know that I make other people's behavior my business too often when it doesn't affect me, and I'm working on that (my behavior needs to be my concern). I was giving my 2 cents earlier of why I don't consider making fun of as a positive behavior for myself. You finding my pov as hilarious is your way of making fun of my pov which is your right to do.
I have a good time messing around and being messed with by people I trust. I think a lot of people disguise slights and shots as playful talk.
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This has sort of devolved into a Getty thread. I think it’s far more interesting to talk about Barkley as a player. In my opinion, he’s over rated by most Giants fans and more than a few NFL pundits. Three seasons into his career and people still talk about him like he’s a first round HoF back. I’m just not sure that’s what he’s established in his body of work. He isn’t always on the field, and yes, availability counts in the NFL. He doesn’t always - or even often - take over games and win. And he has on more than a few occasions disappeared entirely in games. He’s a liability in pass pro, which is a huge problem for a back that’s supposed to be a big piece of the team because you have to take off the field on passing downs or, play him at another position (I guess?). He’s a physical load but he hasn’t proven to be a reliable short yardage guy. He doesn’t wear down a defense and can’t always get the hard yards between the tackles. I would also throw in that he’s fairly average at route running even though many here seem to think he’s the best receiver on the team. I don’t even know if he’s got plus hands and catching ability. Does he make wow plays and amazing highlight moves? Can he score from anywhere and anytime he touches the ball? Yes! But, has he made the Giants better? Is he a great back? Is he one of the best players in the NFL? I can’t say that he is.
I’m not saying he sucks and I’m never saying that I don’t love Barks as a Giant. Of course I want the Giants to win and be a great team. But even if we accept taking a RB at the 2, and I do not, but even if we do, has Barkley been a good 2nd over all pick or is he a disappointment?
No, he hasn’t been a good pick but mostly because of the injuries. But if he recovers well and produces again for us that will help.
He though will never be a good #2 overall pick for what this team was and had to do in 2018...
You're right unless the Giants somehow win a Super Bowl with Saquon Barkley as the lead back, which I think is very unlikely
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In comment 15206699 Colin@gbn said:
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But the fan base blew up and Mara saw he had a potential PR disaster on his hands and cleaned house and Eli got his job back at least for the rest of the season. Still, the Giants had every intention of taking a QB with the #2 pick in the 2018 draft. Certainly no team did more due diligence on the QBs that year than the Giants. Indeed, for the longest time that draft class was looked at kind of like this year's with talk of as many as QBs going in the first 4-5 picks.
I hope Mara learned his lesson not to guide the team based on fan reaction because most of us are morons 😂. Most fan reactions are just empty threats which I'm sure Mara saw after supporting player's right to kneel. There were angry letters, but no impact to his bottom line.
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While I have never been a big fan of Gettleman my sense is if anything the FO maybe should be commended for not panicking and taking a QB just for the sake of taking one and settling on the best player in the draft. has it worked out the way we hoped. Obviously, but welcome to the wild, wacky world of the NFL.
To your point here, can't you argue this is exactly what they did in 2019? Took a QB for the sake of taking a QB instead of BPA?
I hope that Jones and Barkley are homerun picks, but the difference between being great at your job and mediocre is inconsistency. The messaging and application of the Giants roster management on a year to year basis has been inconsistent at best, which is why i think people question whether they are getting it right.
I think it's gotten more consistent under Judge, I'm looking forward to see how it comes together this year.
BH: Not sure what lesson that would be. If you have an impending PR disaster of Titanic proportions and you fire your GM who the fan base generally hates anyway and the PR disaster disappears. Your point is?
Re Jones and the 6th pick; there's a pretty basic rule of BPA drafting and that is that if you need a QB and you like a QB then BPA doesn't count and you go get the QB. There's a reason that 9 of the 18 players taken with one of the first three picks in the past 6 years were QBs.
The lesson would be don't let fan reaction guide your roster decisions. They really could have used the rest of that season to see what they had regarding Webb. I'm not insinuating he would have amounted to anything, but he was an unknown. And that decision, IMO leaked into 2018 with trying to build around Eli.
They needed a QB in 2018, but they went BPA instead. And fundamentally, do you take a QB just because you need one if the prospects that draft year aren't particularly strong? I don't think you force it, but teams don't have the patience to wait.
How would we all be feeling with Herbert at QB in 2021? Probably pretty damn good.
I am interested again.
If a couple dice rolls break our way we could be on the way back. Even if Jones fucks up, we can move on. At least we get to know. That 1 and 7 start last year felt like a sure thing.
This year is anything can happen.
DG hasn't been good and the Barkley pick was bad.
So what?
The season is in play and the draft matters.
Barkley - ( New Window )
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Of all the hilarious things I’ve read on BBI over nearly 25 years — the silliest is that making fun of the GM is out of bounds.
The Giants have a history of lovable losers — Handley, McAdoo, Dave Brown, Cedric Jones, hell Ernie Accorsi had a good decade of being the butt of the joke.
The guy’s put together 3 straight 10 game losers. He’s most certainly in line for some ribbing.
Win some games and everyone will love him.
I'm guessing this is in reference to me.
I wasn’t referring to you per se. I was referring to a certain other poster who gets bothered by mean nicknames for the GM.
How would we all be feeling with Herbert at QB in 2021? Probably pretty damn good.
That's kind of where I was going with that. After Herbert went back to school, 2019 QB draft class was pretty weak. So on paper, you had a 2018 that was looking pretty strong and a 2020 that was projecting to look pretty good. I think if Herbert declared in 2019 he would have been the pick.
So if you need a QB, I don't think you force the pick if you don't love prospect or class. You can always attempt to acquire picks or draft BPA and then move up with some collateral for a future draft year. Giants with Manning, Jets with Darnold, 9ers this year.
Now obviously that doesn't always work out (Darnold/Trubisky), but I'd rather the franchise make moves like that than just kind of see what falls into their lap.
Just a fundamental difference in what seems reactionary vs proactive.
I'm not trying to re-write history here, I hope Jones is very fruitful for us. I just don't agree with 'if you need a QB you ignore BPA and grab the QB philosophy'. It was a need for a few years, not just 2019 and I doubt Jones was their highest rated QB over the past few years.
They needed a QB in 2018, but they went BPA instead. And fundamentally, do you take a QB just because you need one if the prospects that draft year aren't particularly strong? I don't think you force it, but teams don't have the patience to wait.
They went SPA instead - Safest Player Available.
Barkley was probably the best RB, but he wasn't the best player.
No, not really. They passed on a QB in 2018 because they believed they still had one in Eli.
They took a QB in 2019, and even reached for him at #6, because they became desperate when they realized Eli was likely not lasting much longer, if at all. In fact, they benched him after 2 game in 2019.
Barkley was taken because the GM of this franchise didn’t know he needed to rebuild, Barkley looked like a great RB, and a safe pick so just go with that like it’s 1935 and move on...
I said before that draft I thought he was Reggie Bush. I still think he is, more or less. People talk about him like he was a certainty to be the best RB in team history - he isn't even close to Tiki. I say that confidently.
The Giants analysis of 2018 prospects seems really poor. I'm a huge advocate of going to get your guy - I never criticized the Giants allegedly selecting Jones higher than the draft guys projected. But you better be right and the Giants simply haven't been.
I don't think that's a fair statement. Coming into the draft is it not fair to say that the top 3-4 guys in 2018 were ranked higher than Jones was in 2019?
If so, I don't buy 'they hated the 2018 class but loved Jones' because the '19 prospects weren't that good. I think the simpler explanation is they had Eli in '18 and then realized they needed a QB in 19.
I'm not advocating they should have taken Rosen or Darnold in '18, that would have ended poorly.
Let me explain something to you. I have been a PSU fan for 30+ years. I follow their recruiting very closely and even saw Barkley play in high school at White Hall (Matt Millen went there, too).
Where I went to high school - Phillipsburg, NJ - we used to play White Hall in the old East Penn Conference. They were a big rival. So if anything, I have a strong bias FOR SB. So this suggestion that I may have an anti-SB bias is horse manure.
Barkley was the most stylish RB in the 2019 draft. But was he so much better than a player like Nick Chubb? Chubb was a better north-south runner than Barkley and that has continued in the pros.
You can write it a thousand times, but I will NEVER believe taking ANY RB at #2 is the smartest decision. The RB position is now the most fungible position in the NFL. So that by itself completely cancels out the notion that we took the best player in the draft because a RB can't be the best available player at #2. It's an ancient way of looking at football. And unfortunately too many people keep subscribing to it.
Go back and read Sy’s review of Barkley. He have him a 94 score and best player in the draft. I recall Jay Glazer calling him a “franchise changing” player leading up to the draft. Sean Payton called him the best RB prospect he has ever seen in 25 years. The point is, a lot of people *DID* view Barkley as the best player in the draft.
The hope still is that Barkley is more than just a RB. Successful teams have paid RB’s including the Saints. I still hope it works out.
Hopefully he’s healthy and has a strong season. If he does, he will most likely get paid.
I said before that draft I thought he was Reggie Bush. I still think he is, more or less. People talk about him like he was a certainty to be the best RB in team history - he isn't even close to Tiki. I say that confidently.
Fair, but as I say in my post above. Most people and respected people did view him the best player in the draft. To your credit, you were on Lamar right from the beginning. Many people did have a high view of Barkley though.
Really? Maybe you can do some chest beating instead...
Now if you can explain to me how this is me taking a victory lap right now, I'm all ears/eyes.
Hopefully your victory lap goes better than this one did...
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Really? Maybe you can do some chest beating instead...
My money is on Jimmy Clownshoes.
He's got as many memes to use as handles.
The rest of the league liked Josh Allen enough to pick him 7th. That was the right pick. NFL GMs are paid to get picks right, not to follow the consensus.
Colin, sorry, love your work, but your argument misses the forest for the trees.
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the exact same posts and points made pro and anti Barkley. Neither side showing signs of fatigue. Stores closed today and provisions may be scarce, who will outlast who?
My money is on Jimmy Clownshoes.
He's got as many memes to use as handles.
Did you guess the correct hand for the rebuilding plan?
It then both made sense and was unsettling when for him, when Britt finally looked in the mirror, and realized he too had been a moth all of this time.
Britt in VA : 8:43 am : link : reply
I'm actually disappointed in myself for participating.
You guys should give it a try sometime.
Happy Easter. Out.
Because Mell Kiper says it, doesn't make it true. There were many in the run up to the 2018 draft that criticized the apparent decision by the Giants to focus on Barkley at #2. I remember beat reporters for Denver and Indy loving the Barkley pick because it meant better, more high value players, would fall to them.
I am sure you will get over it, and get right back into the mix in no time...
Yeah I don't get it. It became a like a strange meme to make it a point to say he was the best player in the draft. It was weird.
Go back and read Sy’s review of Barkley. He have him a 94 score and best player in the draft. I recall Jay Glazer calling him a “franchise changing” player leading up to the draft. Sean Payton called him the best RB prospect he has ever seen in 25 years. The point is, a lot of people *DID* view Barkley as the best player in the draft.
The hope still is that Barkley is more than just a RB. Successful teams have paid RB’s including the Saints. I still hope it works out.
Hopefully he’s healthy and has a strong season. If he does, he will most likely get paid.
I understand. But I find those opinions completely misplaced.
And I don't care if Sy awarded SB a 100 grade I would still feel the same exact away. The only reason I would have supported taking SB was if we were a winning team, who just happened to have the 2nd pick in the draft executed in a prior year, and had the luxury of taking a RB.
I know many of us have been over this ground hundreds of times, but it's really a position issue. And Barkley really played the wrong position.
Look, the timing was just bad - aging QB, a wobbly OL, and an all-in ownership plan to revitalize the aging QB.
We absolutely need Barkley to get back to full health. To help Jones and, IMV, eventually become trade bait to improve the team in other areas.
The offense is currently counting on:
- Jones bouncing back from an 11 TD, 14 start season
- Barkley bouncing back from a torn ACL
- Golladay bouncing back from a mysterious 9 week hip strain
- An UDFA, 5th round, 3rd round, and veteran bust contributing to the offensive line
If much of that turns out in the Giants favor, and they are competing for a championship over the next few years, I'll be happy to give Rabbit Foot Dave his credit.
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I'm actually disappointed in myself for participating.
I am sure you will get over it, and get right back into the mix in no time...
Britt's a Lost Boy just like the rest of us. He runs home with his toys once a week, but he'll be back to play next time.
If he was healthy Slayton looks better and EE looks better. His presence on the field simply make them better you dont pass on that talent. Ok we pick one of the OL and he has the same injuries here as Barkley then what it is also a bad pick? Injuries is luck of the draw in most cases otherwise a great talent falls due to injury and it is a known risk. Barkley should be seeing plays in the slot as staple in the O him vs a LB is a matchup I like. At RB he is a weapon and not a position the coaches have failed to utilize him like that.
And I don't care if Sy awarded SB a 100 grade I would still feel the same exact away. The only reason I would have supported taking SB was if we were a winning team, who just happened to have the 2nd pick in the draft executed in a prior year, and had the luxury of taking a RB.
I mean WTF does that even mean. Its a word salad. And in what football world anywhere does having a guy capable (because he's already done it) of generating over 2,000 yards from scrimmage not to mention forcing opposing defenses to concentrate almost exclusively on stopping him become a luxury?
At least this person acknowledged that Saquon might have been the best prospect in that draft. What made this whole thread tiresome was the drumbeat pushing the alternative reality that he wasn't. He was and it wasn't all that close. Kiper had him #1; Gil Brandt had him #1; Dan jeremiah had him #1; Mayock had him #1; Sy had him #1; we had him #1!
Of course, this really isn't about the Saquon pick; its about Gettleman being an incompetent. And its just hard to make him out to be an incompetent if you concede that yeah maybe Saquon was the best player (although some do try!)
Meanwhile several other nominees for the Award for the best mental gymnastics on this thread (in no particular order):
"The rest of the league liked Josh Allen enough to pick him 7th. That was the right pick. NFL GMs are paid to get picks right, not to follow the consensus."
Again I'm not sure what that means. Um, Daniel Jones was about the last thing from a consensus pick!
"People talk about him like he was a certainty to be the best RB in team history - he isn't even close to Tiki. I say that confidently."
We'' have to wait and see whether Saquon can comeback and have the same kind of career as Tiki- would be nice - but you should always in the scenarios you know maybe compare apples to apples. In his first three years tike rushed for a total of 934 yards. In his first 3 years (one of which he didn't play in at all) Saquon rushed for over 2,300 yards. In fact Tiki really didn't take off as a truly dominant back until his 6th year. You could look it up!
I'm not acknowledging SB was the best player in the 2018 draft. He was the best RB, but there were certainly other very capable RBs. Like Chubb, Michel, etc.
I want to say I said something similar at the time, but I don't know how anyone could watch an Alabama game or FSU game back in 2017 and not conclude Minkan Fitzpatrick and Derwin James weren't better football players than SB. They just happened to play positions that were less glorified.
You never know...
My point was as simple as there is. The Giants were transitioning away from Eli and needed a QB. Now we know that there was a stellar QB prospect taken at 7. The Giants did not take him. The consensus was that Allen would have been a reach. If the draft were redone today, Allen would be the #1 pick. The Giants made a key misevaluation. And now here we are arguing about what the consensus at the time was, as if that is the proper criterion.
An NFL GM’s objective is to pick the best players, not follow the consensus.
An NFL GM’s objective is to pick the best players, not follow the consensus.
That sums it up well.
And that's a them around here. Because there was this "consensus" on SB, it therefor justifies the pick and insulates it from criticism.
Group-think around here is very contagious... ;)
..that also applies to those sure they are not group thinkers and the concept only applies to the other sheeple.
Pretty funny to watch.
Now I seem to be one of the most negative BBI posters on Jones. I believe there is little chance he will develop into an above average NFL QB. He is a full-on project that should sit for a couple of seasons. Hope I’m wrong but the point is I’ve attempted to objectively perceive the situation because the divergent performances and opinions were so contradictory and confusing.
Yours truly,
The Sheeple
Sy's scouting report nailed it.
Regardless, sink or swim time for him this fall. The time for excuses are over.
With Jones, I'm getting the sense that's going to be what's needed to optimize his play. Which is why I have said we need to invest more this off-season so we eliminate the excuses.
Unfortunately, if this ends up being the case for the long term, it makes the selection of Jones at #6 even more disappointing.
I’m interested in knowing if there are any outcomes that would indicate it wasn’t a great pick.
I’m happy to set the bar on what would make it a great pick:
1) Three more 1200 yard rushing seasons
2) 10 or more total TDs per season over the next 3 years
3) 14 or more games played over the next 3 years
If he can do that, I’d be happy with his 6 year run as a Giant.
I think Judge is good enough to keep them from drafting high enough to replace him in the next few years.
He has a lot of qualities you want. And Mahomes, Burroughs and Lawrence's are few and far between.
We come off a period where Brady, Rodgers, Peyton and Brees had us forgetting that the NFL has had periods with fairly mediocre QB play at times.
For one example, we were very patient with a very flawed and very injured Phil Simms ( and he was the best we had since YA Tittle).
I doubt Jones is going to be any more than in thd 15-10 rung of Qbs. Honestly, I always thought Eli was never a top five QB and most years was just around the 10th QB in the NFL.
Just imo
Then the Giants fucked up the 6th pick in 2019 by passing on the consensus best player for a QB who was not the consensus best player at that spot.
OK got it! Makes sense to me!
It’s really difficult to win without an elite QB in today’s NFL.
The Saints picked an RB #2 in 2006 and won the Super Bowl in the 2009 season. My recollection is Bush was the consensus best player and people killed the Texans for picking Mario Williams. I don’t think Reggie Bush goes top ten in a re-draft of that class.
You can make a lot of mistakes building a team, not every decision is the most efficient/perfect allocation of resources. But when you have a QB that probably won’t be elite, all the other decisions are magnified.
Then the Giants fucked up the 6th pick in 2019 by passing on the consensus best player for a QB who was not the consensus best player at that spot.
OK got it! Makes sense to me!
Not only that, but 2018 and 2019 set us back years and continues to kill us!!
It is the "group think" of a very vocal minority, but a group that will turn any thread into a bash Gettleman thread as evidenced here. They have beaten the horse so badly that I think artificial turf fields are starting to replace rubber pellets with mashed equine....
I think it is possible to have genuinely rational and balanced possible conversations about DJ and SB ( and guys so tainted its not possible) but not DG.
We do not know enough about how selection decisions are made nor have we seen enough play out to make decisions about DG other than he has a unprofessional representation to the media ...which is amazing given it is NY and the NYG are if anything too sensitive to their coverage
DG was condemmed and ridiculed before he started the job and flogges each day for mistakes from years ago.
Its become a barrier to the daily outlook of some and become personal and bitter ( as Go Terps made clear in a thread yesterday) and weird for grown men who dont even know the guy. How do you let a person you dont know and never did anything to you personally affect oneself so much you are bitter? wtf?
If he changed 180 degrees many posters are so stuck in their emotions about the guy they couldnt see neutral or possible if they tried. And they no longer try. They do attack and deride posters who are more balanced much less ones who are flip on the opposite viewpoint.
honestly, I think SB is less the RB the Giants need than DJ is not the best QB. He is a high priced RB who doesnt give them a dependable running game or a complete RB performance.
But when it comes to DG, I see so much slanted feeling based opinions about the person I actually look to understand more fully what the GM position was trying to accomplish. The biggest argument for DG is the kind of detraction we see non stop of BBI. Many a thread and line of thought is designed to bring the same emotions about one guy in a complex multi year run of mistakes by many people to bear every single day.
Its not accurate and its not fun to watch grown men (some of whom one is used to being balanced commentators in the past) lose their shit over a guy in an organization
And the posters who claimed the cap could be managed well enough to no be a major barrier where derided as DG loving loyalists and ignorant.
Im not saying that to throw it in anyones face. Im saying it to point out that if you have only one hammer in your tool kit soon all you notice are nails that need hammering.
Then the Giants fucked up the 6th pick in 2019 by passing on the consensus best player for a QB who was not the consensus best player at that spot.
OK got it! Makes sense to me!
Not sure why this is so challenging, but the criticism, again, is that they took a RB. A position that has sinking value in the NFL and one that we didn't need. Sure, we got the best RB but that doesn't change the calculus. Not has it changed our ability to win more games than we lose.
If you think this is a crazy argument, I suggest you use Google and look up the topic. And how many front offices in the NFL have devalued the position. So this isn't some new theory being whipped by BBI. It's a practical approach to modern football.
And Barkley was not the best player. He was one of the best players. But if your thing is falling in line with what the "consensus" says, then I can see why you were ecstatic.
Jones is another topic. He was simply over-drafted. And thus far his performance bears that out.
not be a major barrier
I don't know Gettleman - true. But I have a very good idea why he was hired (cronyism and that he would stick with Eli), what his putrid record is thus far, and that he is an absolute embarrassment when he's in front of a camera representing the organization as, essentially, an officer of the company.
In fact, on the last point, I believe Jon C mentioned last week or the week prior that there are people inside the organization who don't feel good about Gettleman either when he's in front of a camera. And how he comes off...
Anyone from or who is a vital part of the very top of the standard deviations in performance from the mean is going to render normal or average comparisons within the category so inferior as to be meaningless.
Lee Iaccoca was such a good car marketing guy he could save companies. The average guy in car marketing usually didnt make it to retirement in one company.
Barkley has not been able to provide performance durable enough and complete enough and dependably enough to be considered the very top standard deviation from the mean in running games.
The fact that his awful public persona blinds one to be unable parse the rest and more important parts of his good bad and yet unknown record is what it is.
BTW, I agree that the job is essentially the equivalent to an officer of a public corporation and the same public facing clown show would be something he long since would have been explaining to a concerned Board of Directors.
Not that Reese was an exemplar on this aspect of the job either
I agree the average RB has become devalued in the NFl compared to the past.
I disagree with the idea that getting to the top performance level in any aspect of the game is a bad investment. If thats what the Giants got out of draft slot 2 then that was valuable.
But they did not get themselves to the top running game in the NFL. Oft injured, poor pass blocking, a limited variation of run tendencies and a too many slow to the hole or mis read running plays is far from a dependable 3rd and 4th quarter running game that wins. (Like say back in the day everyone knew no matter who the opponent was that the Bus was running behind Faneca and it didnt matter who knew that...it was going to be five to six yards per play. Thats a playoff winning running game and its still a way to win in the NFL if you have it).
Imo, the lack of an elite running game holds DJ type of quarterbacking back in more games than his own shortcomings do in others.
Imo, so far, the miss was more Barkley and an interior OL than DJ.
Of course not having a legit fully capable replacement for Eli by 2016 ( when he was past 35) was the biggest and easiest to foresee mistake of all
Running back as a position has a stress tested, statistically significant, lower likelihood to contribute across years 4, 5, 6. The injury data does not favor the running back.
Perfectly fair if the starting point is the approximate value of this player's career will be front loaded and the end point is anything beyond that is a bonus.
But let's not start buying concepts like consensus best player when the definition of best is fleeting. The Budweiser Rocker might be the consensus best if the goal is 740 on the Edward's dry lake bed. But if you need to get from Barstow to San Bernardino, you're screwed.
Then the Giants fucked up the 6th pick in 2019 by passing on the consensus best player for a QB who was not the consensus best player at that spot.
OK got it! Makes sense to me!
I know there are some that feel that way, but as you pointed out, you can't have it both ways. I personally feel that if you take Barkley at 2 because of BPA philosophy, you can't take Jones at 6 the next year, that was the point I was making. Up until this past off-season, it seems the Giants philosophy regarding the draft and FA has been inconsistent which is why people question the direction.
The one constant in the messaging through the years is DGs desire to upgrade the lines and if the o-line comes together this year, I think he accomplished his main goal, let's see if it leads to long term success.
- 2018: Let's reload around Eli
----- Draft Barkley instead of a QB
----- Make Solder highest paid LT in NFL
----- Pay Beckham big extension
- 2019: We made a mistake...Eli is cooked
----- Overdraft Jones in a classic panic move
The error is still manifesting itself in decision making:
-----2020: Draft Andrew Thomas to make up for Solder mistake and support Jones
-----2021: Overpay Kenny Golladay
All of these poor decisions and awful football is a ripple effect from:
1. Misevaluating Eli and the state of the 2018 roster
2. Reversing course with the 2019 panic selection of Jones
So here we are, with a team built around an injured, overrated running back and the wrong quarterback.
The rebuild hasn't yet begun. It begins when Jones and Barkley are gone. And that happens when Gettleman is gone.
I’m interested in knowing if there are any outcomes that would indicate it wasn’t a great pick.
I’m happy to set the bar on what would make it a great pick:
1) Three more 1200 yard rushing seasons
2) 10 or more total TDs per season over the next 3 years
3) 14 or more games played over the next 3 years
If he can do that, I’d be happy with his 6 year run as a Giant.
For many here all you need was the 2018 season it appears...
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Okay guys let me see if I got this straight. The Giants fucked up the 2nd pick overall in 2018 because they took the consensus best player. Screwed by group think again!
Then the Giants fucked up the 6th pick in 2019 by passing on the consensus best player for a QB who was not the consensus best player at that spot.
OK got it! Makes sense to me!
Not only that, but 2018 and 2019 set us back years and continues to kill us!!
It is the "group think" of a very vocal minority, but a group that will turn any thread into a bash Gettleman thread as evidenced here. They have beaten the horse so badly that I think artificial turf fields are starting to replace rubber pellets with mashed equine....
Still paying for Solder, still paying for Tate, hoping the highest drafted player the club has had in decades recovers to be a RB, hoping the Guard taken at #34 remembers how to block. Praying Jones learns how to be a QB. Still trying to finish building a Secondary thru free agency after wasting almost an entire 2019 draft on bad picks in that unit.
Yeah, I think we are still paying for 2018 and 2019...
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With Barkley, I’m fascinated with the certainty that he was a great pick.
I’m interested in knowing if there are any outcomes that would indicate it wasn’t a great pick.
I’m happy to set the bar on what would make it a great pick:
1) Three more 1200 yard rushing seasons
2) 10 or more total TDs per season over the next 3 years
3) 14 or more games played over the next 3 years
If he can do that, I’d be happy with his 6 year run as a Giant.
For many here all you need was the 2018 season it appears...
Yeah, hard to take anyone seriously if the stance is it was a great pick, regardless of any positional nuances, the overall architecture of the offense, and the results.
And two the idea of waste, the Giants didn’t waste “years,” — the wasted two years.
It takes seven comparable data points/metrics over seven meaningful performance measurement time slots to make a one year projection with a good confidence level. Has been true since James Forrestal and MIT for the DOD in WWII and John Nash at Princeton in the 1950's. That's with stable and relatively simple market/supply/consumption patterns and not with highly variable human performance in a multi variable game.
A lot of confidence evidenced in posting declarations doesnt overcome the actual unsubstantiated nature of positive or negative performance projections (speculative opinions) at this point.
Much more interesting to me than empty suits like most awesome grade ever or he was doomed at birth.