We know he is a good kid and hard worker so with that I think we can all agree his rehab is going as well as it can from a work ethic standpoint. He is a specimen and seems to have good healing "abilities". But can he commit to being a willing blocker in pass pro at times it seems like he does not want the contact and at that point the rusher has already won. Like being mentioned with Pitts and EE the want to factor of blocking can he will he improve in that regard. Next his understanding of the situation at hand not all plays will be a homerun ball. Take the hole and glow with the play and the game. Hopefully him seeing Freeman and Gallman having success being patient and taking the good yards to keep the "pitch count" on our side. Last be not least is he over the injury bug ... I know this one has no crystal ball just hopes and prayers I guess.
The main issue I see out of the ones I listed is his WILLINGNESS to block better in pass pro and his desire to pass on the grimy yards and setup the next down for a better chance at success. I hope Judge can fix that in him like TC fixed fumbling and ball security with Tiki ...
What say you all? If he can't be fixed what RBs in the later rounds or future drafts you want to take a chance on?
I also think this whole concept that he doesn't fight for yards or doesn't hit the hole hard, etc is really reaching. Not miuch you can do about getting hit 3 yards behind the LOS - that's the OL and scheme, nothing to do with him. I think we've seen Barkley as a victim of circumstance and wound up on a team that can't run block worth a damn. Also, settling for 2 yards isn't getting us anywhere - we just saw that with Gallman.
One thing Tiki mastered was hitting the hole when it was there, but going down when it was time to avoid a big hit or twisting/contorting his body awkwardly.
In other words, when Saquon breaks one for 12 yards, he should probably stop trying to leap the tackler to make it 15
As for pass blocking and other aspects, let's evaluate after a year with a better staff and team around him
If he gets hurt again this year (depending on severity of course) I can see the Giants picking up the 5th year option which I believe is like $7.3M. Gives them one more year to look at him and figure out what they want to do.
I was adamantly against the pick b/c it was an egregious mistake in it's use of resources (from the perspective of the #2 overall pick and the salary cap value that goes to a RB at that pick). However, now that we've made that mistake, we should at least squeeze as much value out of that poor decision as possible which means this absolutely should NOT be Saquon's last year as a Giant.
After this year, we can exercise his 5th year option. Anyone who says otherwise, again, doesn't understand value, positional worth, and how the cap works. Saquon's 2021 cap hit for 2021 is $10.1 million which is absurdly high for a RB on a rookie deal (again- poor use of resources with the #2 overall pick). But his 5th year option will actually result in a pay cut and a cap hit of only $7.2 million. That's a bargain for a player like Saquon AND gives us an extra year to squeeze that value our of the pick. In addition, we have the option to franchise him the following year for not much of a pay increase over his 2021 salary cap hit (franchise tag value for RB's in 2021 was $11.1 million).
So at minimum we have Saquon for another 2 years, and then we have the option of utilizing the franchise tag on him in yr 3. After that- a smart franchise let's him walk instead of exacerbating their draft mistake by investing substantial cap dollars into a then 27 year old RB.
I never said he wanted to block I think that is the biggest issue ... and it spills over into how he runs and his desire to run away from contact vs slamming it up in there at times.
I am happy is on the Giants.
Hopefully, these coaches will get him blocking better.
Anything else....is fill.
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I never said he wanted to block I think that is the biggest issue ... and it spills over into how he runs and his desire to run away from contact vs slamming it up in there at times.
And I never said you did! ;-)
But you did say -
"at times it seems like he does not want the contact"
So I'm just having a bit fun to point out that he's adverse to ANY contact, at any time. Great talent, but it's just not in his DNA, so let him do the things he CAN and WANTS to do.
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In comment 15204185 TC said:
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I never said he wanted to block I think that is the biggest issue ... and it spills over into how he runs and his desire to run away from contact vs slamming it up in there at times.
And I never said you did! ;-)
But you did say -
"at times it seems like he does not want the contact"
So I'm just having a bit fun to point out that he's adverse to ANY contact, at any time. Great talent, but it's just not in his DNA, so let him do the things he CAN and WANTS to do.
Adverse to contact. Got it.
Serious question..... What team in the nfl would ask their second best receiver to block on passing downs?
Every time Barkley is asked to block you are giving the defense an advantage. That's bad coaching. He should be running routes on passing downs. Putting pressure on the defense.
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But I believe this will be his last year in NY. I just don’t see him playing a whole year healthy. I don’t see the value in paying him probably what he wants. And I do not believe his running style and blocking are best for our team.
If he gets hurt again this year (depending on severity of course) I can see the Giants picking up the 5th year option which I believe is like $7.3M. Gives them one more year to look at him and figure out what they want to do.
Just as an FYI, SB's 5th year option (under the new CBA) has already vested. There is no choice to be made - he's already under contract for next year. If he makes the pro bowl, his 5yo price is close to the franchise tag value. If not, it's slightly higher than the transition tag.
Serious question..... What team in the nfl would ask their second best receiver to block on passing downs?
Every time Barkley is asked to block you are giving the defense an advantage. That's bad coaching. He should be running routes on passing downs. Putting pressure on the defense.
A) that's the cost of doing business as a premier RB. The job description doesn't change just because he's a dynamic weapon; he still has to do things that are asked of RBs.
B) there is such a thing as a chip block that precedes a route. SB has been meh (and needs to improve) on those as well. Pass pro from the RB slot isn't just about anchoring on the edge and echoing the OTs in pass sets. You get that, right?
That decision has to be made in the next five weeks. The draft may affect the team's inclination, and the team's inclination may affect the Draft. In any case, that's the decision.
But here's the thing: Unless I've missed some aspect of the New CBA, there's very little incentive for the Giants to pick up Saquon's option. Under the new rules, the option guarantees him a transition-tag 2022 salary, no matter what happens in 2021. The way I see it, they might as well decline the option, see how he looks in 2021, then tag him if they want him and haven't already signed him by March.
As I've said elsewhere, maybe the new CBS stipulates that declining the option also involves forfeiting other rights. That would make some sense, but I haven't seen it anywhere.
Sorry about the typo above: CBA, not CBS.
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In comment 15204216 5BowlsSoon said:
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But I believe this will be his last year in NY. I just don’t see him playing a whole year healthy. I don’t see the value in paying him probably what he wants. And I do not believe his running style and blocking are best for our team.
If he gets hurt again this year (depending on severity of course) I can see the Giants picking up the 5th year option which I believe is like $7.3M. Gives them one more year to look at him and figure out what they want to do.
Just as an FYI, SB's 5th year option (under the new CBA) has already vested. There is no choice to be made - he's already under contract for next year. If he makes the pro bowl, his 5yo price is close to the franchise tag value. If not, it's slightly higher than the transition tag.
I want to amend my prior post - OTC has now walked back the vesting portion of their 5yo page, so I'm not sure if SB's option has vested or not. If it hasn't, and if SB's 5yo genuinely DOES represent a reduction in cap value YOY, the Giants would be foolish to not exercise the option (they'd have exercised it either way, but this is so much more advantageous).
Link - ( New Window )
Sorry about the typo above: CBA, not CBS.
OTC previously reported that the 5yo automatically vested upon a player reaching any of the escalators in the CBA. That seems to not be the case; OTC is no longer reporting the 5yo as such and has updated their option values accordingly.
I apologize for sharing outdated info.
That decision has to be made in the next five weeks. The draft may affect the team's inclination, and the team's inclination may affect the Draft. In any case, that's the decision.
But here's the thing: Unless I've missed some aspect of the New CBA, there's very little incentive for the Giants to pick up Saquon's option. Under the new rules, the option guarantees him a transition-tag 2022 salary, no matter what happens in 2021. The way I see it, they might as well decline the option, see how he looks in 2021, then tag him if they want him and haven't already signed him by March.
As I've said elsewhere, maybe the new CBS stipulates that declining the option also involves forfeiting other rights. That would make some sense, but I haven't seen it anywhere.
BBB - I wonder what the thinking was on the 5th year option = transition tag salary? Can't be a coincidence.
Maybe just keeping things in raw simplicity or do you think something else? What was the old rule if you know.
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In comment 15204185 TC said:
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I never said he wanted to block I think that is the biggest issue ... and it spills over into how he runs and his desire to run away from contact vs slamming it up in there at times.
And I never said you did! ;-)
But you did say -
"at times it seems like he does not want the contact"
So I'm just having a bit fun to point out that he's adverse to ANY contact, at any time. Great talent, but it's just not in his DNA, so let him do the things he CAN and WANTS to do.
I can agree with that point .. as GMFB says ... where is his "Angry Runs"????
The change that affects Barkley much more profoundly is the full guarantee of the Year Five salary that kicks in when the option is exercised. (Previously the guarantee was only for injury.) The guarantee vs. performance is a powerful disincentive for the Giants, with Saquon's return to prior form very much in doubt.
The transition tag is so rarely used though...
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Is the giants second best receiver.
Serious question..... What team in the nfl would ask their second best receiver to block on passing downs?
Every time Barkley is asked to block you are giving the defense an advantage. That's bad coaching. He should be running routes on passing downs. Putting pressure on the defense.
A) that's the cost of doing business as a premier RB. The job description doesn't change just because he's a dynamic weapon; he still has to do things that are asked of RBs.
B) there is such a thing as a chip block that precedes a route. SB has been meh (and needs to improve) on those as well. Pass pro from the RB slot isn't just about anchoring on the edge and echoing the OTs in pass sets. You get that, right?
So how about on passing downs we change the two letters from rb to wr. So because you are a rb you MUST block? That's so stupid. Are there going to be plays on first and second down that call for him to block? Sure but they should be kept to a minimum. Should SB be asked to block or lined up in the backfield on passing downs? Absolutely NOT.
If you have been paying attention on passing downs with SB in the backfield the defense blitzes. Forcing SB to block and putting more pressure on our young Oline. It's a huge win for the defense.
Pat Shummer realized early in Barkley's rookie season to line him up outside or motion him out of the backfield. This reduced the number of pass rushers and eliminated Barkley's weakness. It also led to 90 some odd catches.
Keeping him in the backfield because "that's what running backs do" is stupid and terrible coaching. Unfortunately I think our OC is that stupid and will do just that.
I continue to regard the selection of Barkley and passing on Josh Allen as Gettleman's biggest mistake to date.
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In comment 15204313 fireitup77 said:
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Is the giants second best receiver.
Serious question..... What team in the nfl would ask their second best receiver to block on passing downs?
Every time Barkley is asked to block you are giving the defense an advantage. That's bad coaching. He should be running routes on passing downs. Putting pressure on the defense.
A) that's the cost of doing business as a premier RB. The job description doesn't change just because he's a dynamic weapon; he still has to do things that are asked of RBs.
B) there is such a thing as a chip block that precedes a route. SB has been meh (and needs to improve) on those as well. Pass pro from the RB slot isn't just about anchoring on the edge and echoing the OTs in pass sets. You get that, right?
So how about on passing downs we change the two letters from rb to wr. So because you are a rb you MUST block? That's so stupid. Are there going to be plays on first and second down that call for him to block? Sure but they should be kept to a minimum. Should SB be asked to block or lined up in the backfield on passing downs? Absolutely NOT.
How is that stupid? It's part of the responsibility of that position.
Let's change two letters in OT to WR also. Should they not be required to block? How about on running plans? Should WRs not block when the RB gets the ball?
The RB's job does include some measure of blocking on passing downs, even if he himself is an accomplished receiver. There's no way around that, unless you want to get your QB killed.
The best option for the Giants is trade Barkley as soon as he has a couple good games that show he's healthy. But if they insist on keeping him long term, I think they should consider changing his role to something akin to a slot receiver. Get him out of the backfield altogether and start throwing the ball to him in space.
However, a good portion of the league now understands the revised value of the RB. So I'm not sure what type of market there would be. I seriously doubt we claw back anything other than a second...
However, a good portion of the league now understands the revised value of the RB. So I'm not sure what type of market there would be. I seriously doubt we claw back anything other than a second...
Oh definitely. I wouldn't trade a second for Barkley. I doubt I'd trade for him at all, actually. You can draft a similar player in the middle rounds and pay him peanuts - so why pay Barkley?
But someone else might make the same mistake Gettleman did (to a lesser degree) and overvalue Barkley.
If someone offered a third I'd take it happily.
Now you say you’d happily take a third round pick for him, if anything.
Do you actually believe the utter bullshit you say - or do you just say these things hoping that someone gets a kick out of it?
Jesus.
Jesus.
That's absolutely true. Plenty of examples, but see Alvin Kamara. A third rounder just as skilled as Barkley.
What you guys fail to understand is that for every Alvin Kamara, there are 50 running backs in those rounds who didn’t make it.
What you guys fail to understand is that for every Alvin Kamara, there are 50 running backs in those rounds who didn’t make it.
I added "just as skilled". Bit I'd say Derrick Henry is pretty damn skilled to SB.
But the original premise was "similar". Which to me means a reasonable facsimile to Barkley, right?
So guys like Nick Chubb, Aaron Jones, Dalvin Cook, etc are reasonably close to the skills that SB has. They might not be as flashy, might not jump as high, might not make fancy spins, but they are highly productive.
There’s the injuries. You can’t just sweep those away. There’s the pass blocking, which he’s terrible at whether it’s because he doesn’t want the contact or some other reason doesn’t really matter. He isn’t a short yardage sure thing. He doesn’t really punish a defense. He’s often credited as being some sort of an amazing receiver but I don’t know if that’s born out on the field, especially in his route running. He’s had entire games where he’s a non factor. If he’s on another team I think most of us would agree that he can score anytime from anywhere and that’s exciting but on average he’s pretty unspectacular.
Put that together with the fact that it’s a passing game in a passing league and it’s fair to wonder why even a healthy Barkley is going to be some kind of massive difference maker? That’s also why the pass pro liability is such a huge problem for the Giants. I hope he can figure out protection because there’s a lot that can go wrong with the Giants offense if he does not.
2nd round is a big leap from “the mid rounds.”
Ankle that kept him out of 3 games in 2019. He came back and was as good as he was before. Still rushed for 1,000 yards that season with that line.
2020: torn ACL - freak play.
Can we stop acting like he is some constantly injured player? Enough already.
Even Mara today said he's tired of making excuses.
Ankle that kept him out of 3 games in 2019. He came back and was as good as he was before. Still rushed for 1,000 yards that season with that line.
That’s ridiculous. Barkley came back and very understandably struggled to get much done on the ground for a month and half, including the Jets game where he gained a yard and Jamal Adams destroyed him en route to step and the ball from Jones.
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“You can draft a similar player to Barkley in the mid rounds.”
Jesus.
That's absolutely true. Plenty of examples, but see Alvin Kamara. A third rounder just as skilled as Barkley.
Sooooo, you said "plenty of examples" and you listed one.