We know he is a good kid and hard worker so with that I think we can all agree his rehab is going as well as it can from a work ethic standpoint. He is a specimen and seems to have good healing "abilities". But can he commit to being a willing blocker in pass pro at times it seems like he does not want the contact and at that point the rusher has already won. Like being mentioned with Pitts and EE the want to factor of blocking can he will he improve in that regard. Next his understanding of the situation at hand not all plays will be a homerun ball. Take the hole and glow with the play and the game. Hopefully him seeing Freeman and Gallman having success being patient and taking the good yards to keep the "pitch count" on our side. Last be not least is he over the injury bug ... I know this one has no crystal ball just hopes and prayers I guess.
The main issue I see out of the ones I listed is his WILLINGNESS to block better in pass pro and his desire to pass on the grimy yards and setup the next down for a better chance at success. I hope Judge can fix that in him like TC fixed fumbling and ball security with Tiki ...
What say you all? If he can't be fixed what RBs in the later rounds or future drafts you want to take a chance on?
I don’t know about the mid rounds, but plenty of guys in the 2nd round and later are putting up big time yards.
James Conner, 3rd rounder. David Johnson, 3rd rounder. Raheem Mostert, undrafted. Jeff Wilson, undrafted.
And I'm sure I'm missing a bunch.
You don't have to draft a running back high, or pay a running back a big contract, to have a good offense. It's actually an incredibly stupid way to allocate resources.
And just about everyone felt that way the day before we drafted Barkley. I wonder how many here are arguing on behalf of that pick because they bought his jersey, because otherwise I don't understand the blind allegiance and homerism. He hasn't been a part of anything relevant as a Giant. None of these players have.
Barkley hasn't earned this level of made up bullshit.
I am sure his mental game will have improved (learning the offense etc) but how well it translates to the field remains to be seen. But given everything he will be diminished from pre-injury talent, but by how much remains to be seen. And he must learn to be a complete NFL back which also remains to be seen.
Again - tell me how you know this? He’s 24 years old.
Guess who else tore their ACL and basically immediately came back better than before? Deshaun Watson, Von Miller, Adrian Peterson, Knowshon Moreno, Jamaal Charles, and the technology was worse back then.
So what? They don't have to be as talented as him to produce on better offenses than the ones that were built around Barkley. How is that not clear yet?
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“the injuries”
Ankle that kept him out of 3 games in 2019. He came back and was as good as he was before. Still rushed for 1,000 yards that season with that line.
That’s ridiculous. Barkley came back and very understandably struggled to get much done on the ground for a month and half, including the Jets game where he gained a yard and Jamal Adams destroyed him en route to step and the ball from Jones.
What? His first 3 games back from the injury, he had 80, 145, and 100 total yards. He then finished the season with 115, 67, 143, 280, 115.
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the guys you listed are not even on the same earth as Barkley as a talent. Get over this.
So what? They don't have to be as talented as him to produce on better offenses than the ones that were built around Barkley. How is that not clear yet?
What’s clear is that you cannot grasp what I’m saying. Barkley put up 2,000 yards with a shit line and Eli on his last rope. Let’s maybe, just maybe wait and see what he can do with a better situation.
He put up 2000 yards because he touched the ball almost 400 times. Why do you think the offense that year only ranked 16th in scoring?
I've posted this stat several times about Barkley's supposed great 2018: the average NFL play that season went for 5.6 yards. The average play to Barkley went for 5.3 yards.
In 2018 the plays to Barkley (and there were over 380) were, on the whole, below average plays. Him reaching 2000 yards at 5.3 yards per play was a bad thing, can't you see that?
We are three disastrous years in, and somehow people are arguing that picking Barkley was a good move and, incredibly, that the best may yet be to come.
I'm starting to feel like this guy reading this crazy shit...
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Got it. So.....other than Alvin Kamara, name some of these “mid round” RBs that are “just as skilled” as Barkley. Also - Alvin Kamara is 1 player out of hundreds, probably a thousand players drafted in the mid rounds the past 10 years. I’ll wait.
What you guys fail to understand is that for every Alvin Kamara, there are 50 running backs in those rounds who didn’t make it.
I added "just as skilled". Bit I'd say Derrick Henry is pretty damn skilled to SB.
But the original premise was "similar". Which to me means a reasonable facsimile to Barkley, right?
So guys like Nick Chubb, Aaron Jones, Dalvin Cook, etc are reasonably close to the skills that SB has. They might not be as flashy, might not jump as high, might not make fancy spins, but they are highly productive.
Oh my God, this is getting ridiculous at this point. Of that list, ONLY Dalvin Cook is considered as skilled as Saquon. Maybe.
Go fuck yourself with Gibson and Chubb. I laugh you out while walking you to the door and then I shove you out. You are such a fucking clown. You make shot up to fit your horseshit narratives you unabashed fucking fraud. Ughh.....just go away you liar!
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What’s clear is that you cannot grasp what I’m saying. Barkley put up 2,000 yards with a shit line and Eli on his last rope. Let’s maybe, just maybe wait and see what he can do with a better situation.
He put up 2000 yards because he touched the ball almost 400 times. Why do you think the offense that year only ranked 16th in scoring?
I've posted this stat several times about Barkley's supposed great 2018: the average NFL play that season went for 5.6 yards. The average play to Barkley went for 5.3 yards.
In 2018 the plays to Barkley (and there were over 380) were, on the whole, below average plays. Him reaching 2000 yards at 5.3 yards per play was a bad thing, can't you see that?
We are three disastrous years in, and somehow people are arguing that picking Barkley was a good move and, incredibly, that the best may yet be to come.
I'm starting to feel like this guy reading this crazy shit...
So what constitutes greatness? Because fucking Derrick Henry had almost the exact same amount of yards despite touching the ball far more!
You are a fucking punchlime at this point. You cant even quote the stats you want to lie about effectively. Seriously, a total joke. People say you make good pointz, when you cannibalize your own poimt by bringing up stupid stats that dont even fit your narrative.
This has to be an April fools joke. Lol. You are such a fucking caricature. How many more times can you post the same shit, be pointed out that you are wrong and completely unwanted beforw you leave? Just take a break...you arent very good at this any more. People may not like me, but I just pointed out how your own numbers fucked your argument here and yet you will never own up to it.
How about stop coming to a Giants fan message board yo post horseshit if you dont like getting your ass handed to you?
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In comment 15205067 ryanmkeane said:
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“the injuries”
Ankle that kept him out of 3 games in 2019. He came back and was as good as he was before. Still rushed for 1,000 yards that season with that line.
That’s ridiculous. Barkley came back and very understandably struggled to get much done on the ground for a month and half, including the Jets game where he gained a yard and Jamal Adams destroyed him en route to step and the ball from Jones.
What? His first 3 games back from the injury, he had 80, 145, and 100 total yards. He then finished the season with 115, 67, 143, 280, 115.
I noticed you conveniently skipped over a few games there, Ryan.
What do you think matters more? Skill set, or being part of a productive scoring offense?
It sure seems like you're arguing in favor of skill set on this thread.
Again - the real question is: Why?
It is a fair point to indict his lack of pass protecting capability. But truthfully, he should ALWAYS be an option as a playmaker. Having him block is just as silly as having Tyreek Hill block. Sensible offensive scheme and/or 12 personnel sets should render this argument moot. While this seemed to be a great challenge for Shurmur to comprehend, Judge will get it right.
So, I’ll say this: SB had one of the best, if not THE best Rookie RB years in the 121 year history of the NFL..Shall I repeat that? Of course not, because this fact doesn’t mean shit to the agendites..
Played on 1 leg his second year with a debilitating HAS and of course the ACL last year..
Doesn’t mean and will never mean a fucking thing to agendites. Ever.
Again, lets simply hope Barkley recovers nicely, re-establishes his game and the Giants learn from this...
I added "just as skilled". Bit I'd say Derrick Henry is pretty damn skilled to SB.
But the original premise was "similar". Which to me means a reasonable facsimile to Barkley, right?
So guys like Nick Chubb, Aaron Jones, Dalvin Cook, etc are reasonably close to the skills that SB has. They might not be as flashy, might not jump as high, might not make fancy spins, but they are highly productive.
Oh my God, this is getting ridiculous at this point. Of that list, ONLY Dalvin Cook is considered as skilled as Saquon. Maybe.
Go fuck yourself with Gibson and Chubb. I laugh you out while walking you to the door and then I shove you out. You are such a fucking clown. You make shot up to fit your horseshit narratives you unabashed fucking fraud. Ughh.....just go away you liar!
Which part of “reasonably close” to SB is hard for you to understand? And that’s the point. While you and others are mesmerized by SB’s spins, jumps, cuts, etc - like there are style points awarded in the NFL like figure skating - there are backs chosen outside the first round who bring quality production to their teams that is essential to winning.
So while guys like SB and CMac, both examples of over-drafted RBs, produce a ton of yards, highlights and endorsements, their teams go nowhere because they are the center-pieces of their offenses. And that doesn’t win in today’s NFL. The QB and the passing game need to be the centerpiece and the running game needs to compliment that. Not the other way around, which is too often what Gettleman suggests, and why drafting SB at #2 was very poor strategy.
And at the end of the day, this will happen - the success of this team will hinge on Jones. As he goes, so goes the team. We will not win divisions, playoff games or a SB because of SB. It will be Jones.
What Mara will absolutely do is pay him his 5th Year Option, $7.2 million, and keep him around next year. That's a paycut from this season. That's a no brainer to me.
Barkley is a huge talent. Its fair to argue that we shouldn't have picked him because we didn't have the OL to support him properly. We still don't, hopefully we will address properly with this year's draft.
In hindsight, Quentin Nelson should have been our pick instead of Barkley. Hindsight is always 20/20 though.
That said, I'm glad we have Saquon on the team, he is an immense talent. If he plays all of last season, we would have won the division. That's says it all about his ability.
I'm confident Judge will help him make huge impact this season assuming he's healthy and ready to go physically.
2nd round is a big leap from “the mid rounds.”
Sorry, my bad, I was just focusing on any recent RB not chosen in the first round. Which is the heart of this debate.
But the point still stands - being able to find RBs who can provide quality production at a much cheaper rate rather than wasting a high draft choice on the RB.
Yes, there is the occasional late round or undrafted RB that surprises each year but definitely lower hit rates. And more of a bonus than really something you want to rely upon happening. But it absolutely occurs.
I subscribe to the thinking that reasonably productive running backs can be found later in the draft and as unsigned free agents prior to summer. I do not subscribe whatsoever that a rebuilding team uses an overall #2 pick on one.
It is a fair point to indict his lack of pass protecting capability. But truthfully, he should ALWAYS be an option as a playmaker. Having him block is just as silly as having Tyreek Hill block. Sensible offensive scheme and/or 12 personnel sets should render this argument moot. While this seemed to be a great challenge for Shurmur to comprehend, Judge will get it right.
Well, that's kind of the point. If the Giants had a functional OL in place, I think the Barkley pick would look so much better. But that it came before the OL was repaired (and the OL still isn't a finished product as far as we can tell right now) made it a bit of a poor pick. Not because of Barkley - he is supremely talented and should be the best RB in the league - but because the team was not yet built to take advantage of such a talented RB, and because draft assets are finite, to the extent that not only was Barkley drafted before the OL was finished, but the value of that pick might have been more effectively used to build the OL instead.
That said, Barkley is a Giant and I hope he remains a Giant going forward, and that the decision to keep him long-term is because he steps into a centerpiece role for a winning program this year.
I just don't want Mara to lock himself into Barkley just because we're all still seduced by what Barkley is capable of. SB needs to be a big part of a huge step forward for this team in 2021. I don't think anyone doubts that he's capable of doing exactly that.
No more appetizers - tell the waiter to bring the main course.
It is a fair point to indict his lack of pass protecting capability. But truthfully, he should ALWAYS be an option as a playmaker. Having him block is just as silly as having Tyreek Hill block. Sensible offensive scheme and/or 12 personnel sets should render this argument moot. While this seemed to be a great challenge for Shurmur to comprehend, Judge will get it right.
Barkley has big play capabilities, is a player opponents must account for and as such is a weapon anyone would want on their team.
But as someone who believes in positional value I was not really a fan of him being the #2 pick in the draft.
I understand injuries are always a risk, but given the reckless abandon with which he runs. I always felt this was even more true for him.
I don’t see any evidence up to this pt that he was the right pick. But there is still time for you to be proven correct l; I hope you are.
In hindsight, it's easy to say thay should have torn the house down to the foundation in 2018. And if you're starting from scratch in the modern NFL, you don't start with a running back.
By the way, I don't think Elliott was a particularly good pick either, considering how fragile Romo was. At least Dallas had an offensive line. Then they struck gold (or at least silver) with Prescott.
Yes, there is the occasional late round or undrafted RB that surprises each year but definitely lower hit rates. And more of a bonus than really something you want to rely upon happening. But it absolutely occurs.
I subscribe to the thinking that reasonably productive running backs can be found later in the draft and as unsigned free agents prior to summer. I do not subscribe whatsoever that a rebuilding team uses an overall #2 pick on one.
Absolutely 100% correct.
In hindsight, it's easy to say thay should have torn the house down to the foundation in 2018. And if you're starting from scratch in the modern NFL, you don't start with a running back.
By the way, I don't think Elliott was a particularly good pick either, considering how fragile Romo was. At least Dallas had an offensive line. Then they struck gold (or at least silver) with Prescott.
This theory that Barks was drafted for Eli has always seemed unlikely to me. First, how does a running back make Eli better? When Eli was at his best he had RBBC, and yes some terrific and very solid backs on those committees. But still, it was Eli and the O line being able to pass pro which made those offenses go even in the ground game. And further, what other teams in the NFL subscribe to this idea that a QB1 needs to put top priority on RB1 for success? I guess you can look at the Pokes with Zeke, but even there the O line was very heavily invested in before getting Zeke. Maybe the Rams and Gurely? Idk, not saying it’s beyond the scope of reason. But, if you went to Eli and asked him in 17 or 18, “hey Eli what do you really need”? I don’t think he’s say, “get me a flashy gadget back from PSU that doesn’t pass pro”, or even, “all I need is a running game”. I think, and it’s obviously just my speculation, I think Eli would have wanted pass protection and that doesn’t indicate taking a RB and it especially doesn’t indicate taking Barkley.
In trying to stick to that plan (assuming it was in fact the plan), the Giants may have reached for Daniel Jones; it's too early to tell on that part. I think it was a crappy plan all along, because Eli was baked and the roster stunk. It didn't help that the 2019 QB class turned out to be pretty meh. I just figure the team had a plan - I give them credit for that much, no matter how slim the plan's chances for success may have been.
Shouldn’t that make us excited as Giants fans?
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...of a final, two-year push to win with Eli Manning. Within that context, drafting Barkley and signing Solder/Omameh probably made sense. Even the coaching hires may have been defensible. I think the entire concept was misguided, but I also think it was a constraint Gettleman accepted when he got the job.
In hindsight, it's easy to say thay should have torn the house down to the foundation in 2018. And if you're starting from scratch in the modern NFL, you don't start with a running back.
By the way, I don't think Elliott was a particularly good pick either, considering how fragile Romo was. At least Dallas had an offensive line. Then they struck gold (or at least silver) with Prescott.
This theory that Barks was drafted for Eli has always seemed unlikely to me. First, how does a running back make Eli better? When Eli was at his best he had RBBC, and yes some terrific and very solid backs on those committees. But still, it was Eli and the O line being able to pass pro which made those offenses go even in the ground game. And further, what other teams in the NFL subscribe to this idea that a QB1 needs to put top priority on RB1 for success? I guess you can look at the Pokes with Zeke, but even there the O line was very heavily invested in before getting Zeke. Maybe the Rams and Gurely? Idk, not saying it’s beyond the scope of reason. But, if you went to Eli and asked him in 17 or 18, “hey Eli what do you really need”? I don’t think he’s say, “get me a flashy gadget back from PSU that doesn’t pass pro”, or even, “all I need is a running game”. I think, and it’s obviously just my speculation, I think Eli would have wanted pass protection and that doesn’t indicate taking a RB and it especially doesn’t indicate taking Barkley.
The Giants had been chasing a bellcow RB since Bradshaw retired. They tried to do it with David Wilson too. I can't explain it, but it's definitely a thin
After Eli finished his contract and with a new QB on the roster he would have a stronger OL (through draft) and still have Barkley playing a big supporting role.
Unfortunately that vision failed miserably but I understood the logic.
I
Why don’t we just agree with this....applying hindsight is allowed.....
Thus, the Barkley pick was a mistake and we should have drafted Josh Allen, QB. That way we would have a QB everyone can feel good about and more than likely we would have drafted a stud in 2019 when we drafted Daniel Jones. In addition, we wouldn’t have a broken down RB who likes to dance behind the line of scrimmage.
Let’s all agree with that and move on. I know applying hindsight makes it much easier to judge...so what?
Why don’t we just agree with this....applying hindsight is allowed.....
Thus, the Barkley pick was a mistake and we should have drafted Josh Allen, QB. That way we would have a QB everyone can feel good about and more than likely we would have drafted a stud in 2019 when we drafted Daniel Jones. In addition, we wouldn’t have a broken down RB who likes to dance behind the line of scrimmage.
Let’s all agree with that and move on. I know applying hindsight makes it much easier to judge...so what?
And if Jones takes the steps in year 3 to prove himself as a top QB as we hope, and Barkley has a great next 5 years, and we become a contender, can we then say you have applied your amazing hindsight too quickly?
If they had selected a QB and Eli struggles (good chance) the pressure would have been immense to bench him again.
It was short sighted but considering it was Eli and what he had meant to the franchise I see the thought process. Mara would have been thrilled if Eli even just had the chance to play meaningful games in December.
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In comment 15205067 ryanmkeane said:
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“the injuries”
Ankle that kept him out of 3 games in 2019. He came back and was as good as he was before. Still rushed for 1,000 yards that season with that line.
That’s ridiculous. Barkley came back and very understandably struggled to get much done on the ground for a month and half, including the Jets game where he gained a yard and Jamal Adams destroyed him en route to step and the ball from Jones.
What? His first 3 games back from the injury, he had 80, 145, and 100 total yards. He then finished the season with 115, 67, 143, 280, 115.
You stated he was the same guy and then quoted his rushing stats. I said he struggled on the ground.
After he came back he rushed for 72, 64, 28, 1, 59, 83, and 66 yards over 8 games.
In addition to missing three games, he took bout 2 months to return to form on the ground.
If you do think that had an effect on the team, we can agree to disagree. He's the running back, his primary responsibility is to run the football.
Why don’t we just agree with this....applying hindsight is allowed.....
Thus, the Barkley pick was a mistake and we should have drafted Josh Allen, QB. That way we would have a QB everyone can feel good about and more than likely we would have drafted a stud in 2019 when we drafted Daniel Jones. In addition, we wouldn’t have a broken down RB who likes to dance behind the line of scrimmage.
Let’s all agree with that and move on. I know applying hindsight makes it much easier to judge...so what?
There's a lot in this to disagree with, especially this piece of happy horseshit:
"In addition, we wouldn’t have a broken down RB who likes to dance behind the line of scrimmage. "
If that's the way a Giants fan sees Barkley and his rookie year didn't dispel that pile of crap, then talking about hindsight is the least of your worries.
Maybe gathering some football acumen should move to the top of the list.
Ironically, Shurmur was reportedly very much in favor of Josh Allen.
Barkley thoughts aside, it's crazy that we throw McAdoo and Shurmur into R** H****** territory regularly, but the former was bullish on Mahomes and the latter on Allen.
Neither McAdoo nor Shurmur were good head coaches, but in hindsight, they both knew dynamic QBs when they saw them.
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Been discussed many many times here...by the same guys. Can’t we move away from it?
Why don’t we just agree with this....applying hindsight is allowed.....
Thus, the Barkley pick was a mistake and we should have drafted Josh Allen, QB. That way we would have a QB everyone can feel good about and more than likely we would have drafted a stud in 2019 when we drafted Daniel Jones. In addition, we wouldn’t have a broken down RB who likes to dance behind the line of scrimmage.
Let’s all agree with that and move on. I know applying hindsight makes it much easier to judge...so what?
And if Jones takes the steps in year 3 to prove himself as a top QB as we hope, and Barkley has a great next 5 years, and we become a contender, can we then say you have applied your amazing hindsight too quickly?
Hey, I hope hope hope you are right about the both of what you said because I am first and foremost a Giants fan. I emphatically want both Jones and Barkley to excel this coming year and I gladly would come back on this thread and say, “I spoke too soon!”
I bet you Judge likes Fields or Mac Jones, for example.
Can we stop with these hackneyed replies? Of course no one ever knows with certainty how a prospect is going to turn out.
But it didn't take a lot of game watching/highlight watching/pro day watching to realize that Josh Allen was a freak QB prospect who had the goods to fit today's NFL. And it doesn't surprise me that he has blossomed into one of the best play-makers in the NFL. He's more valuable to the Bills than Barkley will ever be to the Giants.
From a personal standpoint, I would feel a helluva lot better right now with Allen at QB than Jones.
After Eli finished his contract and with a new QB on the roster he would have a stronger OL (through draft) and still have Barkley playing a big supporting role.
Unfortunately that vision failed miserably but I understood the logic.
I understood the logic, too. And even said it at the time. but it was a horribly flawed strategy. One that has led to this continued darkness.
Look, Mara was chasing a title and hoping, through the hiring of his lemming GM Gettleman, that they could catch lightening in a bottle again with Eli. And send "his other son" out on the proverbial high note.
Sentimentality is a big part of the "Giants Way". My biggest hope for Judge is that he can finally crush that and reduce the team's decision making to the "cold business decision" approach Mara actually mentioned yesterday...
I bet you Judge likes Fields or Mac Jones, for example.
And you'll be the first to lick your wounds when I come after your posts, right?
Neither Mahomes nor Allen went at the top of their respective drafts. Neither went top 3. Neither went top 5.
If they were both such no-brainers, they should have gone earlier, no?
You're free to disagree, but I happen to think it's notable that our braintrust had actually hired coaches who might have identified two different outstanding successors to Eli. The fact that they were hired to salvage/extend Eli is part of the problem, not part of the excuse, IMO.
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Do we know that Allen would have been what he is now?
Can we stop with these hackneyed replies? Of course no one ever knows with certainty how a prospect is going to turn out.
But it didn't take a lot of game watching/highlight watching/pro day watching to realize that Josh Allen was a freak QB prospect who had the goods to fit today's NFL. And it doesn't surprise me that he has blossomed into one of the best play-makers in the NFL. He's more valuable to the Bills than Barkley will ever be to the Giants.
From a personal standpoint, I would feel a helluva lot better right now with Allen at QB than Jones.
In hindsight, had Mara not made the constraint, and the Giants selected either Allen or Jackson in 2018, there is absolutely no doubt the Giants would be in a superior position. They would have solved the EDGE problem by selecting Josh Allen in 2019 and the Giants would have been a playoff team last year without question.
Except that Shurmur would still be coach and we would have to suffer through years of mediocrity with incompetent coaching and poor personnel management. And then no clarity on when or if we would land on a competent coach who can drive good GM and Owner decision making. Which we appear to have now in Judge.
Maybe all of this has happened for a reason and has been the shortest path of least resistance to championship calibre football. Maybe not. Let's hope.
I think we were waiting for someone to tell us the value of 300+ carries per season.
Barkley is a one (a primary) component in the larger offensive program.
The better question, and the bigger analysis, is did Gettleman architect an offense that can be a winner.
You've got to get the components and the vision correct. Barkley being a phenomenal individual success on an average offense, that doesn't win games, isn't a victory for the Giants.