We know he is a good kid and hard worker so with that I think we can all agree his rehab is going as well as it can from a work ethic standpoint. He is a specimen and seems to have good healing "abilities". But can he commit to being a willing blocker in pass pro at times it seems like he does not want the contact and at that point the rusher has already won. Like being mentioned with Pitts and EE the want to factor of blocking can he will he improve in that regard. Next his understanding of the situation at hand not all plays will be a homerun ball. Take the hole and glow with the play and the game. Hopefully him seeing Freeman and Gallman having success being patient and taking the good yards to keep the "pitch count" on our side. Last be not least is he over the injury bug ... I know this one has no crystal ball just hopes and prayers I guess.
The main issue I see out of the ones I listed is his WILLINGNESS to block better in pass pro and his desire to pass on the grimy yards and setup the next down for a better chance at success. I hope Judge can fix that in him like TC fixed fumbling and ball security with Tiki ...
What say you all? If he can't be fixed what RBs in the later rounds or future drafts you want to take a chance on?
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liking top QB candidates is any sort of feather in a cap. They were hired to coach an Eli led Giants team whether they liked it or not. I'll give McAdoo credit for having the balls to make a change, but I'm not giving him credit for liking Mahomes.
I bet you Judge likes Fields or Mac Jones, for example.
And you'll be the first to lick your wounds when I come after your posts, right?
Neither Mahomes nor Allen went at the top of their respective drafts. Neither went top 3. Neither went top 5.
If they were both such no-brainers, they should have gone earlier, no?
You're free to disagree, but I happen to think it's notable that our braintrust had actually hired coaches who might have identified two different outstanding successors to Eli. The fact that they were hired to salvage/extend Eli is part of the problem, not part of the excuse, IMO.
So the goalpost is moved to top 5? That's interesting.
in 2017 Mahomes was taken 10th overall, we picked 23rd. I'd say more than a couple HC's out there liked Mahomes, wouldn't you?
No idea what the licking my wounds reference is. Why can't anyone disagree with you without some other motive attached to it. This isn't the first time I've stated this anyway, others have made reference to McAdoo forecasting Mahomes and my response was the same to them - i'm sure a bunch of people liked Mahomes, he wasn't a 2nd rounder.
In hindsight, had Mara not made the constraint, and the Giants selected either Allen or Jackson in 2018, there is absolutely no doubt the Giants would be in a superior position. They would have solved the EDGE problem by selecting Josh Allen in 2019 and the Giants would have been a playoff team last year without question.
Except that Shurmur would still be coach and we would have to suffer through years of mediocrity with incompetent coaching and poor personnel management. And then no clarity on when or if we would land on a competent coach who can drive good GM and Owner decision making. Which we appear to have now in Judge.
Maybe all of this has happened for a reason and has been the shortest path of least resistance to championship calibre football. Maybe not. Let's hope.
I myriad of things I completely disagree with in how you put together this post, is the simple correct comment that picking a RB at #2 was the wrong thing to do.
This was solved before Barkley was even picked.
Go Terps : 4/26/2018 7:06 pm : link
In comment 13934909 AcidTest said:
Quote:
the Browns draft Mayfield, DG will have to decide whether to draft Darnold, Rosen, or trade the pick. This is the most important decision since Accorsi traded for Eli. It defines or destroys careers and legacies.
Agree. If I were Gettleman I'd be approaching this draft like the Giants were an expansion team. I inherited a terrible roster with an awful locker room culture and some bad contracts, and I want to start a new era today. That means doing one of two things:
- Draft the new franchise quarterback
or
- Trade down and use the bounty to restock the team with as many young, cost controlled players not tied to the previous era as possible
What this absolutely should not be about is "get the best player to help Eli". That thinking is the reason that Eli ended up with only a 111-103 career record to this point.
Stop reacting and start building.
And from that same thread, a taste of how stupid I can be:
Go Terps : 4/26/2018 7:11 pm : link
In comment 13934939 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Thoughtful post.
This was the worry with staying in-house (and I consider Gettleman an in-house pick).
We'll see what happens. But I like your expansion team analogy.
I like Gettleman and he seems extremely competent to me, but that was my concern with hiring him as well.
Extremely competent. Ha!
Link - ( New Window )
So, I’ll say this: SB had one of the best, if not THE best Rookie RB years in the 121 year history of the NFL..Shall I repeat that? Of course not, because this fact doesn’t mean shit to the agendites..
Played on 1 leg his second year with a debilitating HAS and of course the ACL last year..
Doesn’t mean and will never mean a fucking thing to agendites. Ever.
It doesn't mean a thing. What does mean a thing is going 15-33 over that period.
The only agenda from me is wanting to see the Giants be a winning team. Your agenda has been making excuses for an organization which, for the past three years, couldn't make a cup of coffee without fucking it up.
If that's how you want to consume Giants football that's your prerogative, but I've got no interest in it.
RE: Go Terps
Go Terps : 4/26/2018 7:11 pm : link
In comment 13934939 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Thoughtful post.
This was the worry with staying in-house (and I consider Gettleman an in-house pick).
We'll see what happens. But I like your expansion team analogy.
I like Gettleman and he seems extremely competent to me, but that was my concern with hiring him as well.
Extremely competent. Ha! Link - ( New Window )
So this tells us you fell down and hit your head on the ground sometime around 7:08pm that evening...
:-)
I couldn't believe a $2 billion corporation could operate so stupidly. I doubt I referred to Gettleman as competent after that.
When I got back an hour or so later, my son ran up to the car and said "Dad, you are going to be mad..."
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In comment 15205498 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
liking top QB candidates is any sort of feather in a cap. They were hired to coach an Eli led Giants team whether they liked it or not. I'll give McAdoo credit for having the balls to make a change, but I'm not giving him credit for liking Mahomes.
I bet you Judge likes Fields or Mac Jones, for example.
And you'll be the first to lick your wounds when I come after your posts, right?
Neither Mahomes nor Allen went at the top of their respective drafts. Neither went top 3. Neither went top 5.
If they were both such no-brainers, they should have gone earlier, no?
You're free to disagree, but I happen to think it's notable that our braintrust had actually hired coaches who might have identified two different outstanding successors to Eli. The fact that they were hired to salvage/extend Eli is part of the problem, not part of the excuse, IMO.
So the goalpost is moved to top 5? That's interesting.
in 2017 Mahomes was taken 10th overall, we picked 23rd. I'd say more than a couple HC's out there liked Mahomes, wouldn't you?
No idea what the licking my wounds reference is. Why can't anyone disagree with you without some other motive attached to it. This isn't the first time I've stated this anyway, others have made reference to McAdoo forecasting Mahomes and my response was the same to them - i'm sure a bunch of people liked Mahomes, he wasn't a 2nd rounder.
The goalposts aren't moving, dude. You are acting like Mahomes and Allen were no-brainers that any coach would have wanted. But I'm pointing out that they were both drafted later in their respective drafts than DANIEL JONES was picked in his draft.
Please try to follow along.
Ownership cared more for Eli than a normal employee. He was a 2 time winning SB bowl QB and MVP that delivered one of the biggest upsets in Superbowl history and came to work every single day, injured or not.
They drafted him a running back to give him one more shot. 15-33 was the result and that sucks but I can live with it. Eli was great to root for and the final drive in 2007 was the greatest moment of my "fan" life.
All in all, I accept it happened and have moved on.
Get a grip.
I have my doubts that he will come back and be good in the areas he was weak in, pre-injury. (Namely - pass pro & grinding yards). The gritty yards stuff I've kind of given up on with him - he's not that style RB. But he needs to be a great pass blocker.
Ownership cared more for Eli than a normal employee. He was a 2 time winning SB bowl QB and MVP that delivered one of the biggest upsets in Superbowl history and came to work every single day, injured or not.
They drafted him a running back to give him one more shot. 15-33 was the result and that sucks but I can live with it. Eli was great to root for and the final drive in 2007 was the greatest moment of my "fan" life.
All in all, I accept it happened and have moved on.
Get a grip.
You think they actually did right by Eli? They didn't...they screwed him. He walked with a lot of money, yeah...but his legacy took a huge hit. He retired a .500 QB, and probably isn't a first ballot HOF (if he makes it at all).
The Giants never got it, just like you don't get it now. They screwed Eli. The latter half of his career was destroyed by incompetence...primarily that of John Mara.
Ownership cared more for Eli than a normal employee. He was a 2 time winning SB bowl QB and MVP that delivered one of the biggest upsets in Superbowl history and came to work every single day, injured or not.
They drafted him a running back to give him one more shot. 15-33 was the result and that sucks but I can live with it. Eli was great to root for and the final drive in 2007 was the greatest moment of my "fan" life.
All in all, I accept it happened and have moved on.
Get a grip.
And yet that same ownership someone had it in their heart to bench him for Geno Smith...
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In comment 15205513 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15205498 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
liking top QB candidates is any sort of feather in a cap. They were hired to coach an Eli led Giants team whether they liked it or not. I'll give McAdoo credit for having the balls to make a change, but I'm not giving him credit for liking Mahomes.
I bet you Judge likes Fields or Mac Jones, for example.
And you'll be the first to lick your wounds when I come after your posts, right?
Neither Mahomes nor Allen went at the top of their respective drafts. Neither went top 3. Neither went top 5.
If they were both such no-brainers, they should have gone earlier, no?
You're free to disagree, but I happen to think it's notable that our braintrust had actually hired coaches who might have identified two different outstanding successors to Eli. The fact that they were hired to salvage/extend Eli is part of the problem, not part of the excuse, IMO.
So the goalpost is moved to top 5? That's interesting.
in 2017 Mahomes was taken 10th overall, we picked 23rd. I'd say more than a couple HC's out there liked Mahomes, wouldn't you?
No idea what the licking my wounds reference is. Why can't anyone disagree with you without some other motive attached to it. This isn't the first time I've stated this anyway, others have made reference to McAdoo forecasting Mahomes and my response was the same to them - i'm sure a bunch of people liked Mahomes, he wasn't a 2nd rounder.
The goalposts aren't moving, dude. You are acting like Mahomes and Allen were no-brainers that any coach would have wanted. But I'm pointing out that they were both drafted later in their respective drafts than DANIEL JONES was picked in his draft.
Please try to follow along.
No need to be an asshole. I disagree with you, live with it.
QB's taken at 7 and 10 (Allen and Mahomes) had interest from coaches and executives other than McAdoo and Shurmur. The fact that you have a problem with that statement is alarming. I will give them credit for advocating to move on from Eli, I will not give them credit for thinking 2 QB's with a handful of elite attributes would be good NFL QB's.
And yet that same ownership someone had it in their heart to bench him for Geno Smith...
Well now you are getting into some interesting territory with that. Way too many BBIers think McAdoo and Reese we're the sole deciders on that. And that Mara was caught off guard, which led to the firing of both.
But it is 100% spot on that Mara discussed the situation, asked for a plan from Reese/McAdoo and APPROVED the plan.
When the blow-back occurred, however, Mara panicked and needed fall guys. So he scapegoated Mac & Reese. I wasn't a huge Reese guy (thought he had run his course as a GM), but felt bad for Mac. He got royally screwed by an owner who acted like a big phony. And that probably has hurt Mac's ability to get back into the league at a prominent position...
Screwed.
For fucks sake.
Screwed.
For fucks sake.
Not sure what you are talking about...I think McAdoo feels screwed by the Giants.
Quote:
You think Eli feels screwed by the Giants? Archie was screwed. He knows exactly what screwed looks like. He retired as the player paid the most in NFL history with 2 SB trophies.
Screwed.
For fucks sake.
Not sure what you are talking about...I think McAdoo feels screwed by the Giants.
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Do we know that Allen would have been what he is now?
Can we stop with these hackneyed replies? Of course no one ever knows with certainty how a prospect is going to turn out.
But it didn't take a lot of game watching/highlight watching/pro day watching to realize that Josh Allen was a freak QB prospect who had the goods to fit today's NFL. And it doesn't surprise me that he has blossomed into one of the best play-makers in the NFL. He's more valuable to the Bills than Barkley will ever be to the Giants.
From a personal standpoint, I would feel a helluva lot better right now with Allen at QB than Jones.
This was you a week before the draft.
At # 2
bw in dc : 4/19/2018 11:12 am : link
I'm out of on Mayfield, Barkley and Nelson.
And, regrettably, I'm close to being out of Rosen and Allen.
There is some revisionist history going on here. I guess we don't have a full I'm totally out on Allen, but you are framing it like you thought he was some sure thing.
If he was any good he'd have a job by now. Wanting to bench Eli and/or being thrown under the bus by Mara would be overlooked if he was the goods.
It is really heard for me, and it really should be hard for anyone else, to claim the Giants didn't do right by Eli. They could have done better, but that's an ocean of difference.
There are guys on the outside looking in who would beg to have any single team years like 2007 or 2011. The greatest sin for any franchise is to not win when you have a QB that can do so, and you don't support him.
The Giants efforts to put players around him were so tryhard that they dug themselves into a hole doing so.
Quote:
And yet that same ownership someone had it in their heart to bench him for Geno Smith...
Well now you are getting into some interesting territory with that. Way too many BBIers think McAdoo and Reese we're the sole deciders on that. And that Mara was caught off guard, which led to the firing of both.
But it is 100% spot on that Mara discussed the situation, asked for a plan from Reese/McAdoo and APPROVED the plan.
When the blow-back occurred, however, Mara panicked and needed fall guys. So he scapegoated Mac & Reese. I wasn't a huge Reese guy (thought he had run his course as a GM), but felt bad for Mac. He got royally screwed by an owner who acted like a big phony. And that probably has hurt Mac's ability to get back into the league at a prominent position...
Yes, Mara is not immune to being a chucklehead.
Eli surprised them all by putting a twist on their benching plans. And Mac & Reese ended up with the most likely the same result that was going to happen to them anyway...getting fired.
This is also why I never subscribe to the Eli mandate crap. Mara hired Getts to make his own eval on Eli, and Getts came to the view that he could still play fine. It was just the answer the owners were pleased to hear, but not mandating.
The problem though is Getts is a member of the chucklehead club too...
Well, he went 11-5 in his first year. If he's not a very good coach, I'm not sure why we're all bowing at the shrine of Joe Judge*.
*I actually like Joe Judge a lot. I just hate illogical takes more than I like JJ.
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In comment 15205673 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15205513 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15205498 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
liking top QB candidates is any sort of feather in a cap. They were hired to coach an Eli led Giants team whether they liked it or not. I'll give McAdoo credit for having the balls to make a change, but I'm not giving him credit for liking Mahomes.
I bet you Judge likes Fields or Mac Jones, for example.
And you'll be the first to lick your wounds when I come after your posts, right?
Neither Mahomes nor Allen went at the top of their respective drafts. Neither went top 3. Neither went top 5.
If they were both such no-brainers, they should have gone earlier, no?
You're free to disagree, but I happen to think it's notable that our braintrust had actually hired coaches who might have identified two different outstanding successors to Eli. The fact that they were hired to salvage/extend Eli is part of the problem, not part of the excuse, IMO.
So the goalpost is moved to top 5? That's interesting.
in 2017 Mahomes was taken 10th overall, we picked 23rd. I'd say more than a couple HC's out there liked Mahomes, wouldn't you?
No idea what the licking my wounds reference is. Why can't anyone disagree with you without some other motive attached to it. This isn't the first time I've stated this anyway, others have made reference to McAdoo forecasting Mahomes and my response was the same to them - i'm sure a bunch of people liked Mahomes, he wasn't a 2nd rounder.
The goalposts aren't moving, dude. You are acting like Mahomes and Allen were no-brainers that any coach would have wanted. But I'm pointing out that they were both drafted later in their respective drafts than DANIEL JONES was picked in his draft.
Please try to follow along.
No need to be an asshole. I disagree with you, live with it.
QB's taken at 7 and 10 (Allen and Mahomes) had interest from coaches and executives other than McAdoo and Shurmur. The fact that you have a problem with that statement is alarming. I will give them credit for advocating to move on from Eli, I will not give them credit for thinking 2 QB's with a handful of elite attributes would be good NFL QB's.
Remember what I said earlier about licking your wounds?
This is your go-to when you're in over your head in an actual debate - call the other person an asshole.
I have my doubts that he will come back and be good in the areas he was weak in, pre-injury. (Namely - pass pro & grinding yards). The gritty yards stuff I've kind of given up on with him - he's not that style RB. But he needs to be a great pass blocker.
I think he is his own worst critic and wears it on his sleeve but I dont consider that mentally soft he just needs to channel it in a positive manner. Maybe post injury he does reinvent himself a little. But I see why you have your stance ... He knows he has to improve and he seems to be a person that can self reflect and grow, we will see.
This was you a week before the draft.
At # 2
bw in dc : 4/19/2018 11:12 am : link
I'm out of on Mayfield, Barkley and Nelson.
And, regrettably, I'm close to being out of Rosen and Allen.
There is some revisionist history going on here. I guess we don't have a full I'm totally out on Allen, but you are framing it like you thought he was some sure thing.
Hey Zeke. Not sure how this applies to what I was saying above about how valuable Allan has become.
But since this is a call out, I would need to see the full body of the thread to see what the discussion cadence was.
I recall being convinced QB was the path for NYG to go; and perhaps thought Darnold was the safest pick at the time..?
I did like Rosen but had major issues with his medical (concussions and other injuries). I recall being ultra impressed with Allen's pro day and his big upside. I'll check back what my thought process was...
Only guy I was a hard no on was Rosen. Pretty crazy that it isn’t even injuries that has brought him to where he is. He fizzled out faster than Haskins.
Yes, but the struggle/debate was whether Allen's low completion % was poor mechanics poor mechanics/Wyoming's mediocre talent or Wyoming's mediocre talent. It was a very tough read.
I think one of the counters was Brett Favre who had a pretty subpar completion % at S.Miss. And like Allen he had a howitzer. But through some good tutoring - Holmgren/Reid/etc - Favre's accuracy got better.
Honest question - what do you consider long term for a QB in today's NFL? People say similar things about Lamar Jackson, but in the meantime the Ravens continue to compete with him.
I'm not sure it's realistic or even preferable to look for Eli/Roethlisberger/Rivers type careers out of QBs anymore.
With Jackson it’s a no but Allen has a shot.
... Also, settling for 2 yards isn't getting us anywhere - we just saw that with Gallman.
Not sure I understand this comment. Gallman averaged 4.6 YPC last season 2020. That's pretty decent.
Petulance.
But you're the one who repeatedly resorts to calling others assholes. Lick away, champ.
With Jackson it’s a no but Allen has a shot.
If you can take Barkley off the field on 3rd down by blitzing and knowing his pass protection is a hole in his game, are you getting your money's worth?
Or is it only the holes in the game of the guys we didn't draft that matters?
My suggestion is to stop trying to be right all the time and actually listen to what people say. You’d fine my line of thinking isn’t far off from yours. Where we differ is how much you love rehashing it where I’ve moved on.
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impossible to know what kind of difference the coaching has or hasn't made from Shurmur to Judge.
... Also, settling for 2 yards isn't getting us anywhere - we just saw that with Gallman.
Not sure I understand this comment. Gallman averaged 4.6 YPC last season 2020. That's pretty decent.
He left so many yards on the field it became frustrating to watch for me. Tough runner but just not good enough for a feature role. Decent backup but he can’t really catch so he’s kind of in a tough spot in terms of his overall value.
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but I’d say contract #2 is long term and that would be the concern with both players. Both are getting $40m+ per year and both seem to be limited in games where they aren’t effective on the ground. So if they scale back the running are you getting your money’s worth?
With Jackson it’s a no but Allen has a shot.
If you can take Barkley off the field on 3rd down by blitzing and knowing his pass protection is a hole in his game, are you getting your money's worth?
Or is it only the holes in the game of the guys we didn't draft that matters?
Maybe, maybe not, depends on his rehab and the coaching he gets. I’m not sold on him being a definitively bad blocker yet. But we arent going to be paying im $40m per year like the previously mentioned QBs so it’s less of an issue. Everyone is scared of this record breaking 2nd Barkley contract and I’ll just wait until I see the numbers before I freak out, if it even happens.
So here we are, three years later, armed with hindsight and perspective to judge the quality of the pick and to learn from it. So three years in how did picking Barkley work out for the Giants? I mean come on...it's objectively been a disaster and an object lesson on how not to allocate resources.
It is absolutely a relevant topic of discussion right now.
So here we are, three years later, armed with hindsight and perspective to judge the quality of the pick and to learn from it. So three years in how did picking Barkley work out for the Giants? I mean come on...it's objectively been a disaster and an object lesson on how not to allocate resources.
It is absolutely a relevant topic of discussion right now.
Of course it is. Also the 5th year option is part of recent discussion to boot.
And it’s always an option of a BBI poster to move along to another thread...
Barkley played at the NFL level very well from day one (outside of injury) so that conversation is squarely about the return on investment. Yes it seems to be poor based on so many other fuck ups before/after him. Whether you get every single poster on BBI to admit it or not is really the only question left. And even if you did we’d still have threads on it. That’s what I mean by I moved on, there’s literally nothing more to say on it. New coach, new executive, and all signs point to a new way of doing things.
I asked earlier about why there hasn’t been more discussion on the offseason we’ve had and don’t think I got an answer. I’m genuinely perplexed by it. Instead it’s days worth of Barkley posts repeating the same thing over and over, I’ll never understand it.
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In comment 15206195 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
but I’d say contract #2 is long term and that would be the concern with both players. Both are getting $40m+ per year and both seem to be limited in games where they aren’t effective on the ground. So if they scale back the running are you getting your money’s worth?
With Jackson it’s a no but Allen has a shot.
If you can take Barkley off the field on 3rd down by blitzing and knowing his pass protection is a hole in his game, are you getting your money's worth?
Or is it only the holes in the game of the guys we didn't draft that matters?
Maybe, maybe not, depends on his rehab and the coaching he gets. I’m not sold on him being a definitively bad blocker yet. But we arent going to be paying im $40m per year like the previously mentioned QBs so it’s less of an issue. Everyone is scared of this record breaking 2nd Barkley contract and I’ll just wait until I see the numbers before I freak out, if it even happens.
He is a bad blocker right now.
You're using right now to judge Jackson and Allen.
I'm not sure why this is complicated.
Again, take a step back and stop trying to one up me. Barkley has a lot to prove this year, I genuinely have no idea what else you want from me.
Barkley played at the NFL level very well from day one (outside of injury) so that conversation is squarely about the return on investment. Yes it seems to be poor based on so many other fuck ups before/after him. Whether you get every single poster on BBI to admit it or not is really the only question left. And even if you did we’d still have threads on it. That’s what I mean by I moved on, there’s literally nothing more to say on it. New coach, new executive, and all signs point to a new way of doing things.
I asked earlier about why there hasn’t been more discussion on the offseason we’ve had and don’t think I got an answer. I’m genuinely perplexed by it. Instead it’s days worth of Barkley posts repeating the same thing over and over, I’ll never understand it.
I don't understand why so many want to dismiss injury as part of their defense of Barkley. One of the primary reasons to not draft a RB highly is their susceptibility to injury. The very risk that some have been wary of has presented itself with Barkley.
That doesn't mean that he won't still be an amazing player, but it does mean that we lost part of one season and most of another because he plays a position that tends to get injured more than most, and that risk was very clearly visible before choosing him.
I think Barkley is probably still the pick at #2 in 2018 even knowing the injuries because he wasn't drafted with a rebuild in mind; he was drafted with a mindset that hadn't yet arrived at a rebuild. But just dismissing the injuries is silly - it's central to the risk of drafting RBs highly.
Again, take a step back and stop trying to one up me. Barkley has a lot to prove this year, I genuinely have no idea what else you want from me.
You're missing my point. You want to throw Jackson and Allen away right now for what they haven't proven they can do - that they can't be effective QBs when the running game is taken away - but you want to extend optimism for what Barkley hasn't proven he can do yet, either - be an effective blocker when called upon.
All three of the players we're discussing have weaknesses. It's ok to acknowledge that Barkley needs to improve in his area to justify defending him against players who you rightfully pointed out need to improve in their area of weakness as well.