We know he is a good kid and hard worker so with that I think we can all agree his rehab is going as well as it can from a work ethic standpoint. He is a specimen and seems to have good healing "abilities". But can he commit to being a willing blocker in pass pro at times it seems like he does not want the contact and at that point the rusher has already won. Like being mentioned with Pitts and EE the want to factor of blocking can he will he improve in that regard. Next his understanding of the situation at hand not all plays will be a homerun ball. Take the hole and glow with the play and the game. Hopefully him seeing Freeman and Gallman having success being patient and taking the good yards to keep the "pitch count" on our side. Last be not least is he over the injury bug ... I know this one has no crystal ball just hopes and prayers I guess.
The main issue I see out of the ones I listed is his WILLINGNESS to block better in pass pro and his desire to pass on the grimy yards and setup the next down for a better chance at success. I hope Judge can fix that in him like TC fixed fumbling and ball security with Tiki ...
What say you all? If he can't be fixed what RBs in the later rounds or future drafts you want to take a chance on?
It's almost as if giving any positive outlook has to be tempered by saying what a shitty job was done in 2018. A constant reminder. Hell, one poster thinks 2018 is the "reason we suck today" when if you really want to dwell on the past, 2014 through 2019 brought it's own set of issues. There's not a clean and easy answer on why we've had really poor years, yet that's what we're being told continually.
I agree with you about both of them - I think Allen has a more well-rounded game, especially because he has the sort of arm that could transition to being a pocket passer. Jackson has always felt a little bit more gimmicky to me, so taking away his legs and forcing him to be purely a passer is a bigger problem with him.
But Barkley also has issues. A RB whose strongest differentiating trait is his receiving ability needs to not be a liability in pass protection. If we have to take SB off the field on 3rd down, that really sucks. And if leaving him on the field on 3rd down will get DJ killed, that also sucks. He needs to get so much better in that area.
It bothered me that the Giants locked in on Barkley being the Gold Jacket. There was another Gold Jacket available too.
But if you're a business looking at revenue projections and growth opportunities, Barkley's the pick. No surprise.
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I asked earlier about why there hasn’t been more discussion on the offseason we’ve had and don’t think I got an answer. I’m genuinely perplexed by it. Instead it’s days worth of Barkley posts repeating the same thing over and over, I’ll never understand it.
It's almost as if giving any positive outlook has to be tempered by saying what a shitty job was done in 2018. A constant reminder. Hell, one poster thinks 2018 is the "reason we suck today" when if you really want to dwell on the past, 2014 through 2019 brought it's own set of issues. There's not a clean and easy answer on why we've had really poor years, yet that's what we're being told continually.
Then tell your view on why the Giants have had really poor years. Start the thread and we will comment on your OP.
Or perhaps just create a positive thread on another topic and let folks join in if it’s interesting.
What do you want to talk about?
It's almost as if giving any positive outlook has to be tempered by saying what a shitty job was done in 2018. A constant reminder. Hell, one poster thinks 2018 is the "reason we suck today" when if you really want to dwell on the past, 2014 through 2019 brought it's own set of issues. There's not a clean and easy answer on why we've had really poor years, yet that's what we're being told continually.
2018 was the "Hail Mary" year that's why it gets constant attention. Instead of cutting the umbilical cord with Eli, Mara hired a pro Eli consultant in Ernie, who hired a pro-Eli GM in Gettleman, who hired a pro Eli HC in Shurmur. And the "Eli Revenge Tour" was hatched.
This cost the organization valuable time, money and progress. Now, you will look the other way because we don't have actual audio or video to prove this out, but this was a major setback. And the Barkley pick perpetuated it...
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It's almost as if giving any positive outlook has to be tempered by saying what a shitty job was done in 2018. A constant reminder. Hell, one poster thinks 2018 is the "reason we suck today" when if you really want to dwell on the past, 2014 through 2019 brought it's own set of issues. There's not a clean and easy answer on why we've had really poor years, yet that's what we're being told continually.
2018 was the "Hail Mary" year that's why it gets constant attention. Instead of cutting the umbilical cord with Eli, Mara hired a pro Eli consultant in Ernie, who hired a pro-Eli GM in Gettleman, who hired a pro Eli HC in Shurmur. And the "Eli Revenge Tour" was hatched.
This cost the organization valuable time, money and progress. Now, you will look the other way because we don't have actual audio or video to prove this out, but this was a major setback. And the Barkley pick perpetuated it...
I tend to agree that 2018 gets a lot of attention because it really was the blank slate year...the franchise had a new GM and a new coach, it had decent cap space, a great draft position but a poor overall roster with a few decent veterans that could have ben built around or disposed of for other value.
Would they bounce back? Would they just extend the pain? Would they put together a cohesive plan to rebuild or would they just miss it? What was next...
And what we got was disaster free agent signings, poor use of draft picks, a crappy assessment of the roster, keeping a clearly declining QB on the roster, panicking soon thereafter by unloading veterans and reaching for a QB, and trading away draft picks when they should have been accumulating them.
The last 12 months or so has been about reconstructing from the crappy rebuilding disaster that took place in 2018 and 2019. Unfortunately that now seems to be an expensive process as the ownership and the fans both expect timelier results. So now a lot of “extra” money has flowed into the hands of LW, Golladay, Jackson, etc in an effort to see if more than 6 wins can be achieved before the franchise has to make extension decisions on both Barkley and Jones.
The good news is at least we know Coach Judge is far more involved now in fixing this trainwreck. At least we think it’s good news, but that’s mostly because we know who else is involved.
Like sands thru the hourglass, so are the days of our lives...
Gettleman chose to use an extraordinary valuable resource on a running back, declared he was going to build from the inside out, and that running the ball was going to be at the center of the offense.
And the run game and the offense have been at best average and at worst horrendous.
Everything the Giants did was wrong. Wrong GM, wrong coach, wrong quarterback.
The echoes of that offseason continue to ripple out and impact decision making. Even the Golladay signing appears to have been executed with an eye towards allowing the QB we overdrafted in desperation an opportunity to prove himself. Personally I don't think any rebuild is going to truly start until we move on from Barkley and especially Jones.
That offseason was, in my view, the biggest disaster I've seen in three decades of following the team.
Considering the thread was about Barkley and if he can bounce back, why would it delve into the same old tired shit?
To just keep whining and bitching??
And then the guy goes out and proves EVERYONE right by having one of the greatest, if not the greatest, rookie RB season in the 120 year history of the entire NFL..Then he has a debilitating HAS the next year and still ekes out a thousand.ACL last year
It goes on and on and on and on..Let this go already..I may have to take my yearly sabbatical from here earlier than usual, probably right after the draft..
You have to go in one direction or the other. In hindsight, it would've been "smarter" from a sheers wins and losses standpoint to move on in 2018.
OTOH, Eli Manning is a legend with 2 Super Bowl MVPs and a special player in pro football history. Arguably our all time franchise QB. I'm OK taking a risk to give him another shot if he wanted to keep playing at 38. Just like I'm OK taking a risk on Barkley being one of the greatest prospects at any position, ever.
As I said above, I wanted Q.Nelson. But I am not going to hold some kind of permanent grudge, or expect these guys to get everything right, all the time. To my eye, the Giants have something going now with Mara, DG, Judge & crew. It's all the parts fitting together. It works. And the Giants are now one of the cool destination teams.
They took a risk on an all time great QB and RB prospect. It was understandable. It didn't work out. But to act as if they are unfit to ever be taken seriously again is fan bullshit.
Everything the Giants did was wrong. Wrong GM, wrong coach, wrong quarterback.
The echoes of that offseason continue to ripple out and impact decision making. Even the Golladay signing appears to have been executed with an eye towards allowing the QB we overdrafted in desperation an opportunity to prove himself. Personally I don't think any rebuild is going to truly start until we move on from Barkley and especially Jones.
That offseason was, in my view, the biggest disaster I've seen in three decades of following the team.
Hmm let’s play it your way then. Let’s say Mara hires Louis Riddick in 2018. They release Eli, which we now know and we surely suspected then they were never going to do that. But it’s a hypothetical so let’s assume they do.
Who are you taking at 2? Darnold? Rosen? Allen? Lamar? Surely, hindsight dictates you say either Lamar or Allen. Earlier in this thread, I said how do you know Allen would be what he is with the Giants.? I believe the post was called hackneyed or some such nonsense. Fact is, we don’t know beforehand. We only know what we know when we know it.
Allen was considered a strong-armed athletic kid who had struggles with accuracy. There were concerns about his level of competition as Wyoming isn’t exactly a college football powerhouse.
Lamar Jackson was considered an ultra athletic, good arm, spread type quarterback. There were concerns about his slight frame and his ability to make NFL throws in tight windows.
But now we know that Allen’s accuracy issues improved in his 3rd year and Lamar landed in a great system with an excellent offensive rushing attack that utilizes his talents effectively. So now of course, it looks like one of them should have been the pick over Barkley.
Unfortunately we don’t have a crystal ball available to Giants’ management. They tried to fix the OL in free agency with Solder and Omameh. They should have moved Flowers inside and gotten a veteran right tackle. They should have found a center better than Jon Halapio.
Hindsight is always 20/20.
2. Taking a RB at #2 overall is a fireable offense that should never happen due to positional value, also setting us back 3-5 years.
3. This egregious combination of error resulted in the Giants having to reach for a QB.
4. Judge had to come in and fix everything and is now pretty much in charge, while Gettleman has been resigned to a figurehead, and that's why you're seeing an improvement in the roster.
5. Barkley should not be given a second contract, and we need to get rid of Jones.
Am I in the ballpark?
I'm a huge DG critic, but I think they win another game or two if he played the full season.
In particular, nobody told anybody to stick with Eli. The fact is the Giants actually started to edge toward moving on past Eli when they selected Davis Webb in 2017. And the day they started Geno Smith ahead of Eli was supposed to have been THE end of the Eli era with the Giants. The irony is that if the Giants had just started Webb that day, no matter how bad he might have been, McAdoo and Reese likely would not have lost their jobs. But the Giants were going to draft a QB at what was supposed to be the QB loaded 2018 draft and were going to need a bridge QB and wanted to see if Smith would do in that role.
But the fan base blew up and Mara saw he had a potential PR disaster on his hands and cleaned house and Eli got his job back at least for the rest of the season. Still, the Giants had every intention of taking a QB with the #2 pick in the 2018 draft. Certainly no team did more due diligence on the QBs that year than the Giants. Indeed, for the longest time that draft class was looked at kind of like this year's with talk of as many as QBs going in the first 4-5 picks.
However, somewhere late in the process, the league, including the Giants soured on the QB class. Remember that quite literally until 3-4 days before the draft nobody but nobody was talking about Mayfield as a potential #1 pick. In fact, there were a lot of people who weren't even talking about his as a likely top ten pick at the time.
I recall Eric reporting on a somewhat unusual meeting of the Giants braintrust about ten days before the draft. Tisch flew in from LA. In retrospect I have speculated that what happened in the meeting was that the personnel people broke the news to ownership that they just didn't feel that any of the QBs were worth the second pick and they were recommending taking Barclay, the best player in the draft, instead.
I remember too when the Giants did select Barclay being very disappointed. And I remember saying to myself that I was going to be really pissed if the other QBs then went 3-4-5. They didn't. The real tell was that Denver, which needed a QB much more desperately than the Giants also passed on the QBs and nobody was willing to trade up until the later into the top ten.
I kind of chuckle when people bitch about the Barclay pick as not reflecting 'positional value' which is just a fancy or delusional way of saying we should have reached for another position. I kind of chuckle too when I hear people say the 'other position' we should have taken was an OG given that that position is so valued that a true collegiate OG has been taken with a top 5 pick since the mid-1970s.
At that point having been given a bag of lemons the Giants decided to make lemonade. They had decided to keep Eli around as the bridge QB. Just maybe with a the addition of star like Saquon and a little luck they could bounce back with Eli. In fact, the offense wasn't bad that year. Eli actually had one of the better years of his career and the Giants led the NFC East in scoring, but the defense wasn't very good at all - the fact that BJ Hill was second on the team in sacks probably says it all - and it ended up being another disappointing year.
Did it all set the Giants back? It certainly didn't move the goalposts forward. But its hard to see how selecting Darnold or Rosen at #2 was going to advance anything. And you have to dig deep into the revisionist bag to think that the Giants should have taken Josh Allen at that point because nobody in the league was going to take him at #2 at that time. Sure he could throw the ball through a brick wall but the book on him was that too often he couldn't hit the wall!
While I have never been a big fan of Gettleman my sense is if anything the FO maybe should be commended for not panicking and taking a QB just for the sake of taking one and settling on the best player in the draft. has it worked out the way we hoped. Obviously, but welcome to the wild, wacky world of the NFL.
My own sense, having lived through the downturns in the 1970s and 1990s is that is a cool time to be a Giants fan. We have a young QB with some tools; we have some him some weapons (hopefully); we have the makings of a pretty good D; and with a deep talented draft coming up in 27 days we have a chance to add 2-3 players that can fill in some important gaps. Hang in there guys!!
He’s not a bank ;)
I have two minor critiques: 1. I don't think Barkley has proven to the best player in the draft. Ignoring positional value, I think Nelson has. And yes, injuries have played a role here for Barkley. I don't think the Giants were proven right in their prediction that Barkley would be the best player in the draft. 2. The people who picked Rosen/Darnold - the people who wasted those valuable picks - have been fired. IMO, the 2018 draft was a prime chance to catapult the franchise forward into a contender. I don't gain a lot of comfort in "well we could have done worse".
I know these two are a little adjacent to your point, so I'm not critiquing you. I enjoyed your post and am glad someone else agrees Eli wasn't rammed down DG's throat!
You have to go in one direction or the other. In hindsight, it would've been "smarter" from a sheers wins and losses standpoint to move on in 2018.
OTOH, Eli Manning is a legend with 2 Super Bowl MVPs and a special player in pro football history. Arguably our all time franchise QB. I'm OK taking a risk to give him another shot if he wanted to keep playing at 38. Just like I'm OK taking a risk on Barkley being one of the greatest prospects at any position, ever.
As I said above, I wanted Q.Nelson. But I am not going to hold some kind of permanent grudge, or expect these guys to get everything right, all the time. To my eye, the Giants have something going now with Mara, DG, Judge & crew. It's all the parts fitting together. It works. And the Giants are now one of the cool destination teams.
They took a risk on an all time great QB and RB prospect. It was understandable. It didn't work out. But to act as if they are unfit to ever be taken seriously again is fan bullshit.
I'll give you that. Did I believe Eli had another SB in him? No, but DG/Mara did, fine. Go get him the pieces to win. Then they fucking drafted Daniel Jones! I mean what the hell are you doing? That was dipping your toe in the water of rebuilding but Eli is still here. That was a terrible mistake which I think Mara and DG would agree with now.
Colin I think there are some things that may be off in your writeup. While 2017 was a hairball of a mess with the Eli benching and all, the new regime assessed him early on in 2018 and decided to keep Eli in place. You can call it a bridge QB or whatever, but he was their starter.
Once that happened Getts wasn't interested in the QBs in the draft any longer or possibly never really was. They didn't just change their mind to Barkley at the last minute. He was going to be the pick for a while and it was an easy decision for the GM.
And to the extent he was already picked, then the Giants were turning to Bradley Chubb. You can talk all you want about revisiting things with a Guard or one of the QBs, but that is not what was going to happen.
1. Ownership made a key personnel decision (building around a forked quarterback) based on PR
2. Front office soured on the quarterback class (a class which contained future MVP Lamar Jackson and MVP candidate Josh Allen)
3. Front office identified Barkley as the best player in the draft (he wasn't even close)
As for my view being revisionist, I'd go back and find more posts I made saying these things before we drafted Barkley, but then I'd just be accused of wanting to be right instead of just being a good fan.
All Colin did was describe the incompetence.
The Eli mistake was made starting in 2016. That the team needed so much talent precisely in the window of a QB transition was the accumulation of mistakes made from 2010 onwards. ( I view 2011 SB win as a false indicator on how much was flawed at the time)
The Macadoo decision was as risky as the Judge decision...a choice of an outsider to Jints Central in the key role
The Eli mistake was made starting in 2016. That the team needed so much talent precisely in the window of a QB transition was the accumulation of mistakes made from 2010 onwards. ( I view 2011 SB win as a false indicator on how much was flawed at the time)
The Macadoo decision was as risky as the Judge decision...a choice of an outsider to Jints Central in the key role
It really was showing itself clearly in 2016 with Eli. Everybody likes to point to the Green Bay playoff game as him being the only one to show up, but he was showing a decent decline in his game as that season went along.
Understandably difficult to move on from him after a playoff year, but this Front Office has difficulty staying ahead of the situation as we know.
You think what they did was the best they could realistically do?
Seriously?
But they really didn't make the best of it, did they?
And how dare they be given a team that had at least enough talent to win 11 games just a year before, decent enough cap space to sign Solder, Ogletree and litany of other free agents and a full complement of draft picks and the #2 overall.
What a terrible hand they were dealt in 2018...
They did not have the benefit of hindsight. Nobody does except BBI.
Three scenarios were possible in 2018, in reality:
1. Take a QB (the didn't value the QB's)
2. Take Barkley (They did this)
3. Trade down and take Chubb or Nelson (don't know if the offers or value were there, so any speculation is just that.)
If I'm trading out of #2 overall, it better involve a first rounder. The trade up to #3 shows that it likely didn't.
I'll share a funny story I couldn't before the Barkley pick. Someone posted a video here showing SB performing at the Combines, and Giants scouts beaming in what looked like love at first sight. I mentioned this to a source of mine and got an "LOL, good eye!" reply of sorts indicating he was in the mix at #2. I think he was the easily the best player in that draft, and still have no real issue with the pick. He just has to stay healthy and grow into his talent level. I was initially disappointed the Giants passed on Darnold, but they weren't the only team that missed on Josh Allen (QB).
All in all, their top decisions need to bear fruit, soon.
In particular, nobody told anybody to stick with Eli. The fact is the Giants actually started to edge toward moving on past Eli when they selected Davis Webb in 2017. And the day they started Geno Smith ahead of Eli was supposed to have been THE end of the Eli era with the Giants. The irony is that if the Giants had just started Webb that day, no matter how bad he might have been, McAdoo and Reese likely would not have lost their jobs. But the Giants were going to draft a QB at what was supposed to be the QB loaded 2018 draft and were going to need a bridge QB and wanted to see if Smith would do in that role.
But the fan base blew up and Mara saw he had a potential PR disaster on his hands and cleaned house and Eli got his job back at least for the rest of the season. Still, the Giants had every intention of taking a QB with the #2 pick in the 2018 draft. Certainly no team did more due diligence on the QBs that year than the Giants. Indeed, for the longest time that draft class was looked at kind of like this year's with talk of as many as QBs going in the first 4-5 picks.
So after 2018 ended, this was the timeline:
-- Mara hires Accorsi, who drafted Eli, to conduct a so called expansive GM search.
-- But as expected, Accorsi hires Gettleman in about ten minutes. The former Director of Player Personnel under Accorsi and who happens to love Eli too.
-- Gettleman and Mara hire Shurman, who had just rejuvenated the career Case Keenum in Minnesota.
-- And then shortly after being hired, Gettleman and Shurman, after they supposedly watched all of this video of Eli, magically concluded that Eli had plenty left in the tank and could lead the Giants to wins and playoff appearances.
So you think all of those pro-Eli hires and situations were just coincidence, right?
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He's not describing incompetence, he's describing evaluators that made the best of the hand they were dealt (in reality).
You think what they did was the best they could realistically do?
Seriously?
Look, when you think football hasn't changed "since 1935" taking a RB at #2 is what you get...
I've been a Giant fan 50+ years since I was a kid sitting in the upper deck at Yankee Stadium 1.0 with my father and uncles.
Trust me this is NOT a cool time to be a Giant fan.
1984-1990 was a cool time to be a Giant fan. The two playoff runs in the Eli years were a cool time to be a Giant fan. The first 12 games of the 2008 regular season was a cool time to be a Giant fan. The two Fassel playoff wins were a cool time to be a Giant fan.
16-46 since their last winning season, 9 years since their last playoff win, with an unproven questionable QB going into his 3rd year is NOT a cool time to be a Giant fan.
Maybe Joe Judge can change that. Maybe all the outside free agents with injury histories stay healthy this year. Maybe 2022 will be a cool time to be a Giant fan. I hope so.
I've been a Giant fan 50+ years since I was a kid sitting in the upper deck at Yankee Stadium 1.0 with my father and uncles.
Trust me this is NOT a cool time to be a Giant fan.
1984-1990 was a cool time to be a Giant fan. The two playoff runs in the Eli years were a cool time to be a Giant fan. The first 12 games of the 2008 regular season was a cool time to be a Giant fan. The two Fassel playoff wins were a cool time to be a Giant fan.
16-46 since their last winning season, 9 years since their last playoff win, with an unproven questionable QB going into his 3rd year is NOT a cool time to be a Giant fan.
Maybe Joe Judge can change that. Maybe all the outside free agents with injury histories stay healthy this year. Maybe 2022 will be a cool time to be a Giant fan. I hope so.
People aren't defending. They are just getting sick and tired of listening to this endless argument that goes in circles. We get it already.
And yes "you know what I'm sick and tired of? 15-33 yuk yuk yuk..."
We get it.
They did not have the benefit of hindsight. Nobody does except BBI.
Three scenarios were possible in 2018, in reality:
1. Take a QB (the didn't value the QB's)
2. Take Barkley (They did this)
3. Trade down and take Chubb or Nelson (don't know if the offers or value were there, so any speculation is just that.)
They sure did a lot of reacting. Maybe a little forward thinking and planning would help every now and then...
And the Giants aren't a Pop Warner team. They are a major corporation. I would again urge people to understand that is how the team is run. What is best for business, isn't necessarily what's best for the fan and it doesn't mean they're incompetent morons.
For those that like to live in the past and refuse to let management forget their perceived missteps - there are also 4 trophies in that case! These guys have gotten it right before.
And - as I said - it looks like they've gotten it right again with Judge. There is excitement around this team, and they are now a destination stop for UFA's. They deserve credit for that.
Do they? So what is this, a ten year long game?
When they're out next year or the year after looking for a new quarterback will that be part of the plan too?
No, I think the GM search by Accorsi was fake...
I've been a Giant fan 50+ years since I was a kid sitting in the upper deck at Yankee Stadium 1.0 with my father and uncles.
Trust me this is NOT a cool time to be a Giant fan.
1984-1990 was a cool time to be a Giant fan. The two playoff runs in the Eli years were a cool time to be a Giant fan. The first 12 games of the 2008 regular season was a cool time to be a Giant fan. The two Fassel playoff wins were a cool time to be a Giant fan.
16-46 since their last winning season, 9 years since their last playoff win, with an unproven questionable QB going into his 3rd year is NOT a cool time to be a Giant fan.
Maybe Joe Judge can change that. Maybe all the outside free agents with injury histories stay healthy this year. Maybe 2022 will be a cool time to be a Giant fan. I hope so.
I don't defend 15-33, I just don't obsess over it. It happened already, nothing I can do about it. I'd ask if you are looking forward to this upcoming season but I think I already know the answer to it.
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was faked.
No, I think the GM search by Accorsi was fake...
Right, we should have gone outside the box, like John Dorsey. Remind me, who did we miss out on at GM due to this egregious nepotism?
I'm good with Daniel Jones over that choice, even with hindsight, thanks.