Jeremiah has had Slater the #1 OL for well over a month.
I watched some video lately, based on Jeremiah's POV, and there are too many times when Sewell just ends up on the ground way. It seems like he just looses his balance too much. Good power, but you wonder about his technicals.
I watched Sewell when watching Lemieux last year. Sewell probably made
Lemieux look good but I didn’t see a real dominant tackle. And that offense made it easy for linemen to look good.
Between Sewell and Slater, it may be more of floor-ceiling comparison. Slater is a near guaranteed long-term starter, possibly at tackle but almost certainly at guard. Sewell is more of a boom-bust guy.
He opted out; the tape on him is old; there's not much to support the groupthink about him as a blue goose tackle.
The clamor for Sewell reminds me of the clamor for Robert Gallery, the CAN'T MISS next great OT who turned out to have a pretty nice career at guard after washing out at tackle. A lot of people on BBI wanted Gallery + Kerry Collins instead of Eli Manning. Yeah, no.
It always amazes me how are player like this can be the consensus top pick at a given position early in the draft process. But then all of sudden they start to get knocked down for no apparent reason.
Slater having not played a game just like Sewell but now is a higher prospect. So I’m always puzzled that it’s said that the game tape is the most important evaluation...yet Slater is now a better prospect?
He opted out; the tape on him is old; there's not much to support the groupthink about him as a blue goose tackle.
The clamor for Sewell reminds me of the clamor for Robert Gallery, the CAN'T MISS next great OT who turned out to have a pretty nice career at guard after washing out at tackle. A lot of people on BBI wanted Gallery + Kerry Collins instead of Eli Manning. Yeah, no.
Slater sat out too. But his "tape" is somehow exempt?
It always amazes me how are player like this can be the consensus top pick at a given position early in the draft process. But then all of sudden they start to get knocked down for no apparent reason.
Slater having not played a game just like Sewell but now is a higher prospect. So I’m always puzzled that it’s said that the game tape is the most important evaluation...yet Slater is now a better prospect?
It happens every single year. There becomes a media driven pecking order that is established, by mock drafts and player rankings, all before the NFL teams begin their deep dive into evaluating prospects: film review, all star games, combines/pro days, interviews, background checks, etc. Then you start hearing “how did this guys stock drop”. It didn’t drop. Their stock had never been established by NFL teams. There is always a disconnect between the mock draft universe and how the NFL teams view the prospects.
RE: RE: Not a bit surprised to hear Sewell isn't consensus OT1.
He opted out; the tape on him is old; there's not much to support the groupthink about him as a blue goose tackle.
The clamor for Sewell reminds me of the clamor for Robert Gallery, the CAN'T MISS next great OT who turned out to have a pretty nice career at guard after washing out at tackle. A lot of people on BBI wanted Gallery + Kerry Collins instead of Eli Manning. Yeah, no.
Slater sat out too. But his "tape" is somehow exempt?
I didn't endorse Slater. Same issues. I don't get why he is soaring up draft boards.
I didn't endorse Slater. Same issues. I don't get why he is soaring up draft boards.
He can competently play all five positions on the line.
But that was true in January, too. Why is he flavor of the month in March?
I agree with the post above saying that the teams never had rankings. Now that they are actually evaluating players, reporters and draft sites are learning their own opinions were wrong. It's not like Slater or Sewell has done anything on the field to change anyone's mind in the last few months.
I understand that. But you are taking a hell of risk.
Anyone who has followed the draft knows how much a player's stock rises or declines in just a few games. But what if that player misses an entire season? Too much projection in my opinion.
Even crazier is taking an underclassman who opted out. To me, that's nuts.
If Slater does, that would be an absolute home run of a pick.
The Giants Oline is far from good right now. Slater could play either guard spot, or Right Tackle. He could even play left tackle if needed.
I worry the Giants will pass on him because of his short arms.
In addition to great film and shutting down Chase Young, Slater also has all of the tools outside of long arms. Slater was 6'4, 304, with 33 inch arms and 33 bench press reps, a 4.84 40 time, and ELITE 3 cone and shuttle times for an Olineman. His workout was very similar to Wirfs last year.
Wirfs, IMO, compares to a more athletic Zack Martin coming out of Notre Dame. He'll be an all pro guard.
If Slater does, that would be an absolute home run of a pick.
The Giants Oline is far from good right now. Slater could play either guard spot, or Right Tackle. He could even play left tackle if needed.
I worry the Giants will pass on him because of his short arms.
In addition to great film and shutting down Chase Young, Slater also has all of the tools outside of long arms. Slater was 6'4, 304, with 33 inch arms and 33 bench press reps, a 4.84 40 time, and ELITE 3 cone and shuttle times for an Olineman. His workout was very similar to Wirfs last year.
Wirfs, IMO, compares to a more athletic Zack Martin coming out of Notre Dame. He'll be an all pro guard.
If Slater does, that would be an absolute home run of a pick.
The Giants Oline is far from good right now. Slater could play either guard spot, or Right Tackle. He could even play left tackle if needed.
I worry the Giants will pass on him because of his short arms.
In addition to great film and shutting down Chase Young, Slater also has all of the tools outside of long arms. Slater was 6'4, 304, with 33 inch arms and 33 bench press reps, a 4.84 40 time, and ELITE 3 cone and shuttle times for an Olineman. His workout was very similar to Wirfs last year.
Wirfs, IMO, compares to a more athletic Zack Martin coming out of Notre Dame. He'll be an all pro guard.
If he's another Martin, he would be worthy of the pick. Is he? I don't know.
still researching these guys but the reports I see on Slater remind me of the reports I read on Justin Pugh... undersized, versatile technician.
IMO, you don't spend the 11th pick in the draft on that.
Agreed, not the place to take a “good” player. Let’s be honest here. With the recent moves the team has made and the confidence the fan base has in Judge I don’t think we are going to be drafting this high again a year from now. Get a playmaker at 11.
most of these talking heads have no clue. They copy from one another. You need to know the good from the bad. The combine was the best time of year because that is when people drink and talk. Since there basically was no combine the last two years you get names that are all over the place. So, to me, there is no consensus that we should he honoring with these players. How many times did we say wtf to picks last year? We say that because our knowledge is based off of bullshit posted on the web about player rankings. And especially today people need that shock value so they have their surprising rankings to get more clicks.
And to further elaborate on this, no two teams' boards are the same. I'd be shocked if every team had one player as their top OT.
Daniel Jeremiah has been saying this since November, both as his opinion and what he’s been hearing around the league. “Versatile, short armed” prospect also applied to Zach Martin and Brandon Scherff as well. We’re picking at 11 and have needs at one or both of RG/RT and Slater is pretty much a consensus Too 10 prospect...outside of the asshat info, I don’t understand why he isn’t a more popular pick on this board.
Slater is the one of him shutting down Young. Andrew Thomas also shut down Young, and he struggled mightily against others at first. Can’t just use a few plays to evaluate a guy.
Slater is a guard. Giants aren’t drafting a guard at 11.
Slater is the one of him shutting down Young. Andrew Thomas also shut down Young, and he struggled mightily against others at first. Can’t just use a few plays to evaluate a guy.
Slater is a guard. Giants aren’t drafting a guard at 11.
We drafted a RB at 2 and a 60% snap share iDL at 17 in consecutive years. I’m not saying they will draft Slater for that reason but I am saying that nothing about our recent drafting history suggests that an OG is out of the question.
Slater has OT and OC versatility as well.
I wonder how Christian Darrisaw is doing in interviews.
The biggest concern with him seems to be commitment level. Depending on system fit, need, and how he comes across on Zoom, he could be more attractive to some teams than Slater or even Sewell.
I still don’t think it’s worth it. Guard is way down the list of impact positions in today’s NFL.
How do you figure this? Teams now have interior pass rushers. The way to collapse the pocket is through the A and B gap. Guard are getting paid just like tackles. Take a look at Joe thuney signe with chiefs. Guards are as important as tackles.
Daniel Jeremiah has been saying this since November, both as his opinion and what he’s been hearing around the league. “Versatile, short armed” prospect also applied to Zach Martin and Brandon Scherff as well. We’re picking at 11 and have needs at one or both of RG/RT and Slater is pretty much a consensus Too 10 prospect...outside of the asshat info, I don’t understand why he isn’t a more popular pick on this board.
I’m coming around. He gives the giants a lot of flexibility. I assume he’s start at RG from day 1. That lets lemiuex and Hernandez battle for LG, Peart and Solder at RT. If Peart isn’t the starter, Slater can move over in a year.
If he’s got all pro material, sign me up, but don’t just get enamored worth his versatility
how the guy that was considered #2 or #3 behind Trevor Lawrence over last summer has dropped as the top OL while a guy that was barely mention in the top 20 is all of a sudden rated higher....both sat out last season. What changed?
For the most part, the problem with Pugh was and is injuries. When he's healthy, he's a good lineman and his versatility makes him even more valuable. I don't watch enough college football to know anything about Slater but assuming his injury career doesn't turn out like Pugh's, finding a guy that could hold a line position for a decade with the ability to play other positions at a high level in a pinch, would be worth the 11th pick.
It was really after the measurements came in when many moved Slater back into the tackle conversation. The perceived short arms were based on a lack of information. He's a hair under 34" and with his technique, scouts are more comfortable with him at tackle now.
still researching these guys but the reports I see on Slater remind me of the reports I read on Justin Pugh... undersized, versatile technician.
IMO, you don't spend the 11th pick in the draft on that.
I'd argue an actually healthy Pugh was worth a first round pick as he was a pretty good versatile offensive lineman when healthy. Unfortunately that was rare.
I think he's also hinted Pitts to Atlanta and Smith to Miami fwiw.
I am trying to refrain from getting my hopes up that Chase falls to 11 cause I know it won't happen but every little nugget of someone else going top 10 makes my eyebrow raise uncontrollably.
especially at the top of the first. Quite frankly, suspect if the Giants pick Slater it means all their WR and Edge targets are gone. Very unlikely and a suboptimal choice, imo.
especially at the top of the first. Quite frankly, suspect if the Giants pick Slater it means all their WR and Edge targets are gone. Very unlikely and a suboptimal choice, imo.
I agree, one of Waddle, Smith, Parsons or Pitts will most likely be there at 11 when the Giants pick.
top 10. In this class, there's only Sewell and his stock has slipped after the opt out. It's very thin. Last year's class was strong, but even then there was no consensus blue goose OT.
I think every year players slip b/c of "word on the curb" - but this year w/ no combine - no in person interviews where players and coaches have a chance to meet and players can "sell themselves" or coaches have a chance to give the 'ol "I can coach this kid despite the red flags"....
That "word on the curb" is going to stick more than most years.
RE: Pitts and Slater won't make it past the Cowboys if they are available
at number 10. Book it!!!
Cowboys covet both players in their draft evaluations.
Both make sense for the Cowboys. Where would Surtain fit in that evaluation.
As far as Pitts goes with Dallas, I can see them drafting him but it is a poor allocation of resources imo. McCarthy hasn't been a big TE guy. He likes 4 WRs. They have 3 really good WR. Adding another pass catcher is not smart even though Pitts makes sense. I said it before but their huge mistake was paying Cooper all that money. I understand some might call it hindsight but it wasn't for me.
There is far less certainty about Slater's future at OT than Sewell's. Where Slater has an advantage is that he can also play OG. Sewell has some things in pass pro that he needs to clean up, but I will be stunned if he isn't the first OL off the board.
For the most part, the problem with Pugh was and is injuries. When he's healthy, he's a good lineman and his versatility makes him even more valuable. I don't watch enough college football to know anything about Slater but assuming his injury career doesn't turn out like Pugh's, finding a guy that could hold a line position for a decade with the ability to play other positions at a high level in a pinch, would be worth the 11th pick.
Is a healthy Justin Pugh worthy of the #11 pick? I don't think so. But that's me.
Zack Martin's pre-draft bios were pretty unimpressive as well. It was his work in the Senior Bowl that I think shot him up the board. When I read the reviews of Slater, they are reminiscent of a ton of overachieving, slightly undersized tackles with those "technician" and "versatile" labels... as well as, "he may have to shift to guard at the pro level."
Those guys seldom end up like Martin. They often end up being decent players, but again, we're talking about the #11 pick.
If you are drafting Slater at #11, you are probably forcing the pick. (Again, this is a guy who didn't even play his final year... as mentioned above, how he is "moving up the boards" is beyond me. The tape hasn't changed in a year.
when I watch the YouTube tape on the two Alabama receivers, they just play at a different speed than everyone else on the field. And they played last year.
All things being equal, I'd like to add another OL. But they don't appear equal to me.
So everyone believes Cooper's contract is for 5 years $100M.
Read the contract, it was essentially a 2 year contract for $40M. After 2021, Cowboys can walk away from that contract with only a $6M hit in dead money. Very important if they consider Gallup essential after 2021 to re-sign,
Definitely Pitts would be in play at number 10 if available.
Jerry would be laughing on his yacht again.
Cowboys also view Slater as a plug in RT in this draft.
So everyone believes Cooper's contract is for 5 years $100M.
Read the contract, it was essentially a 2 year contract for $40M. After 2021, Cowboys can walk away from that contract with only a $6M hit in dead money. Very important if they consider Gallup essential after 2021 to re-sign,
Definitely Pitts would be in play at number 10 if available.
Jerry would be laughing on his yacht again.
Cowboys also view Slater as a plug in RT in this draft.
Slater is probably a plug-in right tackle. No argument. The debate is how good a player he will be at the pro level.
go in the late 1st round/early 2nd. My money is on Trey Smith, which is high risk pick that could be an absolute home run if his medical issues are in control. But if it isn't Smith, there are several other excellent linemen coming out who would be great values for our 2nd rounder.
Don't force it. Play into the strength of the draft.
For the most part, the problem with Pugh was and is injuries. When he's healthy, he's a good lineman and his versatility makes him even more valuable. I don't watch enough college football to know anything about Slater but assuming his injury career doesn't turn out like Pugh's, finding a guy that could hold a line position for a decade with the ability to play other positions at a high level in a pinch, would be worth the 11th pick.
Is a healthy Justin Pugh worthy of the #11 pick? I don't think so. But that's me.
Zack Martin's pre-draft bios were pretty unimpressive as well. It was his work in the Senior Bowl that I think shot him up the board. When I read the reviews of Slater, they are reminiscent of a ton of overachieving, slightly undersized tackles with those "technician" and "versatile" labels... as well as, "he may have to shift to guard at the pro level."
Those guys seldom end up like Martin. They often end up being decent players, but again, we're talking about the #11 pick.
If you are drafting Slater at #11, you are probably forcing the pick. (Again, this is a guy who didn't even play his final year... as mentioned above, how he is "moving up the boards" is beyond me. The tape hasn't changed in a year.
^This. I won't hate Slater at #11, but I am biased against players who opted out. I don't blame them for doing so, but I'd prefer not to draft one at #11. Exceptions would be Sewell and Chase. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Giants passed on Slater.
I still think it will be Waddle, Smith, or Surtain, probably in that order.
I don't see the Giants being able to trade down, even if they want to do so. All five QBs are likely to go before #11. I don't think anyone would trade up for a non QB.
BBI is more down on Slater than the draft community is
Yes, but what is the "draft community" and are they really "experts"? It seems to me in recent years, this "draft community" is way, way off from what happens in the draft, even with the first three picks.
It seems like when the "draft community" was much smaller back in the day, they were more accurate. I'm talking about guys like Joel Buchsbaum.
So everyone believes Cooper's contract is for 5 years $100M.
Read the contract, it was essentially a 2 year contract for $40M. After 2021, Cowboys can walk away from that contract with only a $6M hit in dead money. Very important if they consider Gallup essential after 2021 to re-sign,
Definitely Pitts would be in play at number 10 if available.
Jerry would be laughing on his yacht again.
Cowboys also view Slater as a plug in RT in this draft.
Interesting. Thanks. Gallup is a very good receiver that isn't appreciated enough.
other thing I will say about the "draft community" is that it is exceptionally vulnerable to group think. They all move in a herd.
Everyone was convinced Sam Darnold was a sure thing. It's why the bulk of BBI thought Gettleman was an idiot for not drafting him.
Gettleman may be an idiot, but he made the right call on Darnold.
This is why I get annoyed with the non stop criticism of the Saquon pick. I totally understand the argument against Saquon. But, would it have been better had the Giants drafted Darnold or Rosen at two?
"draft community" has never been so separated from the NFL community than this year.
From what I understand, the combine is where a lot of these draft community members get their whisper down the lane type intel...and that didn't happen this year.
Everyone is in their own little COVID bubble, zoom meeting, watching tape from 2 years ago and dealing with BS pro-day info....
other thing I will say about the "draft community" is that it is exceptionally vulnerable to group think. They all move in a herd.
Everyone was convinced Sam Darnold was a sure thing. It's why the bulk of BBI thought Gettleman was an idiot for not drafting him.
Gettleman may be an idiot, but he made the right call on Darnold.
This is why I get annoyed with the non stop criticism of the Saquon pick. I totally understand the argument against Saquon. But, would it have been better had the Giants drafted Darnold or Rosen at two?
That and Chubb would've been the pick if not Barkley.
"draft community" has never been so separated from the NFL community than this year.
From what I understand, the combine is where a lot of these draft community members get their whisper down the lane type intel...and that didn't happen this year.
Everyone is in their own little COVID bubble, zoom meeting, watching tape from 2 years ago and dealing with BS pro-day info....
Interesting point.
I will also throw this out there... the NFL uses the media like other organizations use the media now. They will leak stories for a purpose. It's a lot more disingenuous now.
RE: RE: BBI is more down on Slater than the draft community is
Yes, but what is the "draft community" and are they really "experts"? It seems to me in recent years, this "draft community" is way, way off from what happens in the draft, even with the first three picks.
It seems like when the "draft community" was much smaller back in the day, they were more accurate. I'm talking about guys like Joel Buchsbaum.
My circle for draft guys is small. I listen to Brugler, Jeremiah, Zierlin and occasionally Tony Pauline. I'm pretty selective. There are so many people trying to be "draft guys" that I think there's a lot of junk info out there.
is a good example of when you take a guy in the 1st round who seems to be a fine player who can “play a number of positions.”
It turns out to be true, and he’s had a decent career. But, in no way shape or form was he worth a first round pick.
The real judgement call on that depends on the players who also went in the first round.
He's probably going to have a 10 year career out of the 19th overall pick.
This list is full of bad players. It wasn't a great draft.
last year up until a couple of months before the actual draft. Then you saw many people projecting him as the 4th OT taken in their mock drafts, including several media members. Most of BBI had him 3rd/4th at this time.
Then with about a week or two before the draft as teams' preferences started leaking, Andrew Thomas started getting late hype and was being mock drafted as the 1st OT off the board more often and had some BBI threads at the time claiming he was the best OT option.
On the day of the draft, Thomas was obviously the #1 OT taken by the Giants but we also heard rumors that he was the #1 OT on more team big boards than any of the other guys.
So did Andrew Thomas go from being the consensus #1 OT option for an entire college season through 2 months before the draft, then drop to being the #4 OT with 2 months left, then go back to being the #1 OT with 1 week left? Or was he the #1 OT the entire time and the media didn't realize until right before the draft?
especially at the top of the first. Quite frankly, suspect if the Giants pick Slater it means all their WR and Edge targets are gone. Very unlikely and a suboptimal choice, imo.
Dude it’s a very good tackle class and the depth of the tackle class is light years ahead of last season. I somehow wonder where your information comes from to be honest. You throw a lot of shit out there and hope something sticks
So correct me if I"m wrong here - there were a lot of scouts straight drooling over Sewell ... like to the point of many thinking scouts saying he would be better than the big 4 T that came out last year...
the opt out and lost season of film and experience. It seems to have affected his status so far this scouting season, but I think he still goes top 10.
but I think the questions on him being a RT or OG at the NFL level will persist. That's probably it for the top 20 ish, two OL. Also, I'm pretty sure NYG is targeting skill positions at #11, WR, Edge, possibly even CB acknowledging the need there now is considerably less after signing Jackson.
other thing I will say about the "draft community" is that it is exceptionally vulnerable to group think. They all move in a herd.
Everyone was convinced Sam Darnold was a sure thing. It's why the bulk of BBI thought Gettleman was an idiot for not drafting him.
Gettleman may be an idiot, but he made the right call on Darnold.
This is why I get annoyed with the non stop criticism of the Saquon pick. I totally understand the argument against Saquon. But, would it have been better had the Giants drafted Darnold or Rosen at two?
I think it would have been. In that scenario:
1. We probably still go about 15-33, probably not much worse...hard to be worse than that over three years in the NFL
2. We save about $45M in cap space that was spent on Eli in 2018 and 2019
3. We don't force the Jones pick in desperation in 2019
4. We'd be a year ahead in the QB cycle...we'd probably be looking for a QB in this draft. As it stands now we'll probably be looking for one next year or in the 2023 draft.
I think picking Barkley was the worst possible option at #2.
at number 10. Book it!!!
Cowboys covet both players in their draft evaluations.
I have been saying that Pitts if he makes it to 10 is a very Jerry Jones pick. Even with other needs there and great players there. I would bet so much on if Pitts falls to 10 he is a Cowboy.
While I like Slater a lot, there are good ol who will be available
at number 10. Book it!!!
Cowboys covet both players in their draft evaluations.
I have been saying that Pitts if he makes it to 10 is a very Jerry Jones pick. Even with other needs there and great players there. I would bet so much on if Pitts falls to 10 he is a Cowboy.
I can't see Jerry Jones passing on Micah Parsons. He fits need and culture on that team.
but I think the questions on him being a RT or OG at the NFL level will persist. That's probably it for the top 20 ish, two OL. Also, I'm pretty sure NYG is targeting skill positions at #11, WR, Edge, possibly even CB acknowledging the need there now is considerably less after signing Jackson.
I think WR is less of a target based on what Mara said yesterday.
Quote:
"It (Golladay signing) takes pressure off us going into the draft. Now we don't have to take a receiver in round...round two...now we can sit there and take the best player available."
He said this near the end of the presser; and the draft piece wasn't part of the question. It seemed like an honest confession...
So if I had to stack in as of now, based on some of the intel shared, I would say the likely options are:
1. Pitts - if he falls
2. Defense (corner, edge)
3. OL
4. WR
Surtain is up there. I think receiver is still their primary target. After signing Jackson I tend to think they'll pivot and look to fill a hole like Edge.
Surtain is up there. I think receiver is still their primary target. After signing Jackson I tend to think they'll pivot and look to fill a hole like Edge.
Jon, If you were drafting for the Giants and everyone is there at 11. Can you share your top 3 in order?
they're still targeting a receiver, be it a WR or Pitts. If they're gone, they go Edge.
Really? Over Surtain too?
This is my issue. If they really want edge, I hope they find a trade partner because I don't see an edge I like at 11 compared to the rest of the folks I expect there. I'd take Slater and plug him at guard just because I think he's a better player than any of the edges I see in this part of the draft. Same for Surtain or Farley. I'd take them despite the stacked secondary over the guys I see available.
I definitely see that Edge is our biggest need. I just don't see it as matching the value of the 11th pick.
"draft community" has never been so separated from the NFL community than this year.
From what I understand, the combine is where a lot of these draft community members get their whisper down the lane type intel...and that didn't happen this year.
Everyone is in their own little COVID bubble, zoom meeting, watching tape from 2 years ago and dealing with BS pro-day info....
Interesting point.
I will also throw this out there... the NFL uses the media like other organizations use the media now. They will leak stories for a purpose. It's a lot more disingenuous now.
Yes, disingenuous media pushed by teams and NFL propaganda machine. Nothing new under the sun.
What Alabama WR hasn't played out of their mind the last 3-4 years? Did you see the year Waddle was having before he got hurt? ;)
Hell, Pitts had 12 TDs in only 8 games as a TE. Which is pretty damn impressive, and averaging 18 YPC.
Waddle is the guy. I know you all want to see him run. If it causes him to drop to us I am good.
The guy is an amazing punt and kick returner. GExcellent at both. Fastest GPS of anyone in CFB. I think he wins the Heisman had he not been injured. Avg 24.4 per return in 2019, 24.4 on punts is stupid good. Fabulous receiver as well. More stout than Smith.
Has Deon Sanders game speed.
RE: RE: RE: Smith played out of his brain last season
What Alabama WR hasn't played out of their mind the last 3-4 years? Did you see the year Waddle was having before he got hurt? ;)
Hell, Pitts had 12 TDs in only 8 games as a TE. Which is pretty damn impressive, and averaging 18 YPC.
Waddle is the guy. I know you all want to see him run. If it causes him to drop to us I am good.
The guy is an amazing punt and kick returner. GExcellent at both. Fastest GPS of anyone in CFB. I think he wins the Heisman had he not been injured. Avg 24.4 per return in 2019, 24.4 on punts is stupid good. Fabulous receiver as well. More stout than Smith.
Has Deon Sanders game speed.
We kicked Waddle around here in 2019. I think Sy even thought he was the best receiver in the group which included, at the time, Juedy, Ruggs, and Smitty. He was electric. And he was off to a blazing start in '20 until he got hurt.
But I would like to see him run and do drills before I even considered an investment at #11. His game is so predicated on speed and quickness that that needs to be confirmed or you are taking on big risk...
other thing I will say about the "draft community" is that it is exceptionally vulnerable to group think. They all move in a herd.
Everyone was convinced Sam Darnold was a sure thing. It's why the bulk of BBI thought Gettleman was an idiot for not drafting him.
Gettleman may be an idiot, but he made the right call on Darnold.
I truly believe that system, coach, supporting cast all go a long into the development of talent. All of these 'what if we drafted this guy over this guy' are impossible to quantify because part of what makes them great were the situations they were put in.
Would Tom Brady have had the career he had if he wasn't linked up with BB and the Patriots?
Would Josh Allen be where he is at if he was drafted by the Jets and would Darnold be where Allen was if drafted by Buffalo? I think both are 'no'.
It used to drive me nuts when would draft these tweener 4-3 DEs (Clint Sintim types) and try to teach them to play DE in a 4-3. It's like draft guys that fit your system, don't try and shoehorn talent into you system.
I applaud teams like Balt and Arizona for changing the offense to fit the QB, not the other way around.
last year up until a couple of months before the actual draft. Then you saw many people projecting him as the 4th OT taken in their mock drafts, including several media members. Most of BBI had him 3rd/4th at this time.
Then with about a week or two before the draft as teams' preferences started leaking, Andrew Thomas started getting late hype and was being mock drafted as the 1st OT off the board more often and had some BBI threads at the time claiming he was the best OT option.
On the day of the draft, Thomas was obviously the #1 OT taken by the Giants but we also heard rumors that he was the #1 OT on more team big boards than any of the other guys.
So did Andrew Thomas go from being the consensus #1 OT option for an entire college season through 2 months before the draft, then drop to being the #4 OT with 2 months left, then go back to being the #1 OT with 1 week left? Or was he the #1 OT the entire time and the media didn't realize until right before the draft?
This is basically the gist of it.
Although Thomas was the first one taken because the Giants wanted to ensure they got a Left Tackle to succeed Solder or beat him out. The other top tackles hadn't really played left tackle enough, if at all, in college to be certain of it.
1) gonna independently back up Jon on this. With the caveat that no one's board is finalized. A large caveat.
2) watch how they got Waddle off the line. Trouble getting off the line is an issue that can drop a 1st round Wr. Is he as good at this as Smith or Chase or Pitt?
is a good example of when you take a guy in the 1st round who seems to be a fine player who can “play a number of positions.”
TTH, I would have taken 7 players over Pugh out of the list you sent
It turns out to be true, and he’s had a decent career. But, in no way shape or form was he worth a first round pick.
The real judgement call on that depends on the players who also went in the first round.
He's probably going to have a 10 year career out of the 19th overall pick.
This list is full of bad players. It wasn't a great draft.
I’m on record as saying I would draft Phillips over Slater. If Smith, Chase, Waddle are all gone, I’m taking Phillips. Dude is a force and will have more of an impact on the actual game on a week to week basis than a guard.
Slater looks like an awesome guard. But - i don’t think DG and Judge wants to continue to build the team that way.
receivers in this draft doesn’t mean we can just find one in round two or three. Yeah, we can draft one and hope they turn into a better version of Slayton. But the drop off in talent between Chase, Smith, Waddle and then the rest is pretty immense IMO
RE: Not a bit surprised to hear Sewell isn't consensus OT1.
1) gonna independently back up Jon on this. With the caveat that no one's board is finalized. A large caveat.
2) watch how they got Waddle off the line. Trouble getting off the line is an issue that can drop a 1st round Wr. Is he as good at this as Smith or Chase or Pitt?
He's a classic Z receiver. But when he's in motion, he a handful because when he gets that running start there aren't going to be many corners - if any - who can touch this guy.
(Assuming, of course, Waddle is fully recovered from the ankle and has his quickness and speed.)
Right, so Sewell opting out is NOT why he's not the consensus OT1, since the other OT who tends to be OT1 in mocks where Sewell isn't the top OT also opted out.
There may be some good reasons why some prognosticators have Slater ahead of Sewell, and they may be justified. Opt-out status just can't be one of the reasons at this position.
receivers in this draft doesn’t mean we can just find one in round two or three. Yeah, we can draft one and hope they turn into a better version of Slayton. But the drop off in talent between Chase, Smith, Waddle and then the rest is pretty immense IMO
Really? You don't think guys like Toney, Bateman, Marshall, Moore, Brown, etc are close to the aforementioned?
So you looked at the game tapes and
you think he gets off the line better than Chase or Smith?
I said nothing about when he is already in motion. I didn't even say he wasn't possibly a very disruptive 1st round player.
I said there is a reason some will rate him third or fourth behind Chase, Smith, Pitts as a receiving talent ( imo, he would be first as a returner).
So overall would some take his overall offering higher than the others? Yep.
Would some consider his Wr only potential lesser? I think some will.
It's not malpractice to come to either ranking.
Maybe the Giants want returns in the hands of Ross for his incredible speed. Maybe they don't want blazing speed but sure hands and judgement. Maybe they want vision and not Waddle like acceleration. I dont know. So I don't know if Waddle would be higher on their board as a total explosive player.
JonC check Eric’s post about herd thinking and apply it to you and bbi. So far you’ve named these guys as possibilities at 11
Surtain
Rousseau
Smith
Waddle
Pitts
Slater
Parsons?
Thats basically everyone going in the top 15 haha. You take everything very personally and your constant line of Hes in play is sickening. You haven’t taken one stance. Your adamant about defense being the better value pick at 11 when that’s total BS. Your covering every angle to correct. Pick a player or players and stick with it. Have a legit opinion with insight. People look to you for knowledge, which I truthfully don’t understand why, and they must come away more confused then when they went in.
Go look at my history. I had slater as my number 1 OT before Daniel Jeremiah came out with his rankings. Go Take a look. I’ve been adamant that I want Slater, waddle or smith.
This edge class stinks. Taking an edge at 11 would be a horrible mistake considering all The guys available round 2. Again, saying the value is on defense end then saying the giants seem to be targeting a WR. Then you contridict yourslef and say they may target and edge. Yea I have a guess also, I think they may draft a football player but I’m not sure.
Damn bbi has become crap. I’ll sign off permanently and allow all of you to listen to the self proclaimed bbi expert ( in pc opinions) JonC
JonC check Eric’s post about herd thinking and apply it to you and bbi. So far you’ve named these guys as possibilities at 11
Surtain
Rousseau
Smith
Waddle
Pitts
Slater
Parsons?
Thats basically everyone going in the top 15 haha. You take everything very personally and your constant line of Hes in play is sickening. You haven’t taken one stance. Your adamant about defense being the better value pick at 11 when that’s total BS. Your covering every angle to correct. Pick a player or players and stick with it. Have a legit opinion with insight. People look to you for knowledge, which I truthfully don’t understand why, and they must come away more confused then when they went in.
Go look at my history. I had slater as my number 1 OT before Daniel Jeremiah came out with his rankings. Go Take a look. I’ve been adamant that I want Slater, waddle or smith.
This edge class stinks. Taking an edge at 11 would be a horrible mistake considering all The guys available round 2. Again, saying the value is on defense end then saying the giants seem to be targeting a WR. Then you contridict yourslef and say they may target and edge. Yea I have a guess also, I think they may draft a football player but I’m not sure.
Damn bbi has become crap. I’ll sign off permanently and allow all of you to listen to the self proclaimed bbi expert ( in pc opinions) JonC
Between you contributions and he the contributions of Jon.
Um JonC every day of the week. I have learned things I did not know previously because of his posts. You, I got nothing. Your next good post will be your first good post.
JonC check Eric’s post about herd thinking and apply it to you and bbi. So far you’ve named these guys as possibilities at 11
Surtain
Rousseau
Smith
Waddle
Pitts
Slater
Parsons?
Thats basically everyone going in the top 15 haha. You take everything very personally and your constant line of Hes in play is sickening. You haven’t taken one stance. Your adamant about defense being the better value pick at 11 when that’s total BS. Your covering every angle to correct. Pick a player or players and stick with it. Have a legit opinion with insight. People look to you for knowledge, which I truthfully don’t understand why, and they must come away more confused then when they went in.
Go look at my history. I had slater as my number 1 OT before Daniel Jeremiah came out with his rankings. Go Take a look. I’ve been adamant that I want Slater, waddle or smith.
This edge class stinks. Taking an edge at 11 would be a horrible mistake considering all The guys available round 2. Again, saying the value is on defense end then saying the giants seem to be targeting a WR. Then you contridict yourslef and say they may target and edge. Yea I have a guess also, I think they may draft a football player but I’m not sure.
Damn bbi has become crap. I’ll sign off permanently and allow all of you to listen to the self proclaimed bbi expert ( in pc opinions) JonC
Oh man your learning from Jon. What to name every first rounder possible?
Yea so you don’t remember me saying Kaden smith is a great blocker. Sy Shat on Kaden smith blocking until Bobby skinner made a YouTube video about his blocking. Proceed to not learn. Also, glad bbi found slater about 3 months after my initial post. Carry on good sir
Other posters? ( who make up their own minds anyway)
Jon?
To answer your question I’d say a combination of entertainment and also show bbi that the “insight” Jon provides isnt insight. He basically names every non QB in the top 15 as “in play” it’s just nuts to me that bbi looks to him for info. Has he ever given a breakdown of any prospect? If anyone can find “insight” let me know.
he's made several posts about how its way too early and if you've followed him over the years his "hints" tighten up and become a more focused the week of the draft. I think he'd be the first to tell you that its 100% too early to predict anything.
Who cares anyway? He provides good insights, explains his stance well (the info he's allowed to share anyway), and usually makes for good discussion. If he's wrong, what does it matter unless you are gambling with his info, in which youd only have yourself to blame anyway?
1) You find it entertaining to rip a guy you dont know and who never did anything to you. And you think that doesnt say more about you than what you are saying?
2) You think the rest of us need you to point things out about other posters?
3) You are aware that early in the process before the draft board is set there are Giants employees reporting and advocating for about a dozen different players? Every year this is true?
4) Jon's sources pre Judge ( dont know how this plays out now) were pretty reliable as it got much closer to draft time?
5) That this draft given an 11 slot and an odd pre draft Covid influenced process was always going to be loaded with a wide range of rumors, truths, reports and "sources"
6) Imo, Judges head is where the draft takes place and he doesnt tell anyone until the last steps of the process so why rotate on what Jon says this year? Likely all from some Giant source but not the relevant one
Net net, have you made this what we remember about you or about Jon?
Kinda odd to jump into a thread twice in two separate days to rip on a poster and think thats about them and not really about you?
But I admire his willingness to put his ass on the line here at BBI with information or an opinion. And he seems pretty knowledgeable about the technical aspects of position play. So he's usually a good read - to me.
especially at the top of the first. Quite frankly, suspect if the Giants pick Slater it means all their WR and Edge targets are gone. Very unlikely and a suboptimal choice, imo.
Dude it’s a very good tackle class and the depth of the tackle class is light years ahead of last season. I somehow wonder where your information comes from to be honest. You throw a lot of shit out there and hope something sticks
You seem to confuse easily, and that's on you. You also seem to (often) miss posts of mine, because I'm here regularly and this isn't the first time you've tried this nonsense. But, I'll try to help find you a clue.
I post what I'm able to share when I'm able to. That is to say I'm told what to not share here. I've been crystal clear about that for years. I'm also clear when it's my opinion.
Right now FOUR WEEKS from the draft, as I've posted before, all I've got for sourced info is the three Bama players, Pitts, and they're looking at Edge. Nothing new.
Earlier in this thread, I gave my opinion : they're going WR or Pitts, and if they're all gone I'd wager it's Edge. That's because there's multiple ways a draft could break, just run a few mocks and that becomes clear, and logical, common sense.
Don't know what your problem is, other than I must be contradicting your opinions and you don't like it. Bottom line, you don't like it, don't fucking read it.
The draft board isn't set, and yes the info comes lighter and later now compared to the previous regime. There's also info in the back channels no one will post on BBI for a number of obvious reasons. There's also the likelihood a number of players outside the top 10 of this draft will carry similar grades, which makes it a harder draft to predict.
Group think at this time of year is most of what we have, for a few more weeks. The love for the three BAMA kids was well-known early in March, no different than other year as targets slowly leak out.
Appreciate the response and you handled it well so I commend you not that you probably care about my opinion. I’ll admit I handled it poorly and came off attacking.
Bill2. Also, you handled it nicely coming to Jon’s defense while actually writing a coherent well thought out post. I’m not running from my comments and I respect the responses I got. I’ll step away from bbi as I don’t intend to make it a worse environment. I’ve been very supportive of the site for many many many years and Eric can attest to that. I may be a dickhead sometimes, or all the time, depending who you ask.
JonC. My apologies to you
Bill2. My apologies as well and I took to heart some of the stuff you wrote. Again, I’m not running away I read it all and took it to heart and bill wasn’t all that wrong
UConn I still don’t get the gambling reference maybe that’s a little deflection on your part ? You can always call gamblers anonymous
JonC, Rico and formerly hitdog42 are/were pretty accurate in the past.
Nothing is a given in the draft and the dynamic changes with each player drafted.
In the end, what is heard before the draft can change when an unexpected player or two are drafted out of sequence. Players become available or unavailable.
JonC, as he said, was very clear in what he heard and Rico has virtually backed that up. But they cannot know exactly what JJ and DG(and staff) are saying and thinking and if they do need, to protect their sources or lose those sources.
I watched some video lately, based on Jeremiah's POV, and there are too many times when Sewell just ends up on the ground way. It seems like he just looses his balance too much. Good power, but you wonder about his technicals.
Between Sewell and Slater, it may be more of floor-ceiling comparison. Slater is a near guaranteed long-term starter, possibly at tackle but almost certainly at guard. Sewell is more of a boom-bust guy.
Probably could ply both tackles and OG
Serious upside even if he needs a yr
The clamor for Sewell reminds me of the clamor for Robert Gallery, the CAN'T MISS next great OT who turned out to have a pretty nice career at guard after washing out at tackle. A lot of people on BBI wanted Gallery + Kerry Collins instead of Eli Manning. Yeah, no.
Slater having not played a game just like Sewell but now is a higher prospect. So I’m always puzzled that it’s said that the game tape is the most important evaluation...yet Slater is now a better prospect?
Slater is more polished , stronger and may be a better OL, But Sewell is going to keep Burrow upright,
The clamor for Sewell reminds me of the clamor for Robert Gallery, the CAN'T MISS next great OT who turned out to have a pretty nice career at guard after washing out at tackle. A lot of people on BBI wanted Gallery + Kerry Collins instead of Eli Manning. Yeah, no.
Slater sat out too. But his "tape" is somehow exempt?
Slater having not played a game just like Sewell but now is a higher prospect. So I’m always puzzled that it’s said that the game tape is the most important evaluation...yet Slater is now a better prospect?
It happens every single year. There becomes a media driven pecking order that is established, by mock drafts and player rankings, all before the NFL teams begin their deep dive into evaluating prospects: film review, all star games, combines/pro days, interviews, background checks, etc. Then you start hearing “how did this guys stock drop”. It didn’t drop. Their stock had never been established by NFL teams. There is always a disconnect between the mock draft universe and how the NFL teams view the prospects.
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He opted out; the tape on him is old; there's not much to support the groupthink about him as a blue goose tackle.
The clamor for Sewell reminds me of the clamor for Robert Gallery, the CAN'T MISS next great OT who turned out to have a pretty nice career at guard after washing out at tackle. A lot of people on BBI wanted Gallery + Kerry Collins instead of Eli Manning. Yeah, no.
Slater sat out too. But his "tape" is somehow exempt?
IMO, you don't spend the 11th pick in the draft on that.
I didn't endorse Slater. Same issues. I don't get why he is soaring up draft boards.
He can competently play all five positions on the line.
Well, there goes Sewell, Parsons, Slater, Chase, etc.
Same here, if they traded down then I am more comfortable taking a player who opted out but at 11 it’s too risky IMO. That is unless it’s Sewell.
Exactly one writer's opinion. It's misdirection time when it comes to the draft.
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I didn't endorse Slater. Same issues. I don't get why he is soaring up draft boards.
He can competently play all five positions on the line.
I agree with the post above saying that the teams never had rankings. Now that they are actually evaluating players, reporters and draft sites are learning their own opinions were wrong. It's not like Slater or Sewell has done anything on the field to change anyone's mind in the last few months.
Anyone who has followed the draft knows how much a player's stock rises or declines in just a few games. But what if that player misses an entire season? Too much projection in my opinion.
Even crazier is taking an underclassman who opted out. To me, that's nuts.
Any while "versatility" is a great attribute, it's not the overriding concern for taking the 11th player in the draft.
Do you want a "solid, versatile" guy at #11 or someone who is capable of becoming an outstanding player at one position?
I'm for fixing the OL. But don't force it.
The Giants Oline is far from good right now. Slater could play either guard spot, or Right Tackle. He could even play left tackle if needed.
I worry the Giants will pass on him because of his short arms.
In addition to great film and shutting down Chase Young, Slater also has all of the tools outside of long arms. Slater was 6'4, 304, with 33 inch arms and 33 bench press reps, a 4.84 40 time, and ELITE 3 cone and shuttle times for an Olineman. His workout was very similar to Wirfs last year.
Wirfs, IMO, compares to a more athletic Zack Martin coming out of Notre Dame. He'll be an all pro guard.
The Giants Oline is far from good right now. Slater could play either guard spot, or Right Tackle. He could even play left tackle if needed.
I worry the Giants will pass on him because of his short arms.
In addition to great film and shutting down Chase Young, Slater also has all of the tools outside of long arms. Slater was 6'4, 304, with 33 inch arms and 33 bench press reps, a 4.84 40 time, and ELITE 3 cone and shuttle times for an Olineman. His workout was very similar to Wirfs last year.
Wirfs, IMO, compares to a more athletic Zack Martin coming out of Notre Dame. He'll be an all pro guard.
Slater* not Wirfs
The Giants Oline is far from good right now. Slater could play either guard spot, or Right Tackle. He could even play left tackle if needed.
I worry the Giants will pass on him because of his short arms.
In addition to great film and shutting down Chase Young, Slater also has all of the tools outside of long arms. Slater was 6'4, 304, with 33 inch arms and 33 bench press reps, a 4.84 40 time, and ELITE 3 cone and shuttle times for an Olineman. His workout was very similar to Wirfs last year.
Wirfs, IMO, compares to a more athletic Zack Martin coming out of Notre Dame. He'll be an all pro guard.
If he's another Martin, he would be worthy of the pick. Is he? I don't know.
IMO, you don't spend the 11th pick in the draft on that.
Agreed, not the place to take a “good” player. Let’s be honest here. With the recent moves the team has made and the confidence the fan base has in Judge I don’t think we are going to be drafting this high again a year from now. Get a playmaker at 11.
And to further elaborate on this, no two teams' boards are the same. I'd be shocked if every team had one player as their top OT.
Slater is a guard. Giants aren’t drafting a guard at 11.
Slater is a guard. Giants aren’t drafting a guard at 11.
We drafted a RB at 2 and a 60% snap share iDL at 17 in consecutive years. I’m not saying they will draft Slater for that reason but I am saying that nothing about our recent drafting history suggests that an OG is out of the question.
Slater has OT and OC versatility as well.
How do you figure this? Teams now have interior pass rushers. The way to collapse the pocket is through the A and B gap. Guard are getting paid just like tackles. Take a look at Joe thuney signe with chiefs. Guards are as important as tackles.
I’m coming around. He gives the giants a lot of flexibility. I assume he’s start at RG from day 1. That lets lemiuex and Hernandez battle for LG, Peart and Solder at RT. If Peart isn’t the starter, Slater can move over in a year.
If he’s got all pro material, sign me up, but don’t just get enamored worth his versatility
NFL teams know so much less about this group of draftees than any group before.
IMO, you don't spend the 11th pick in the draft on that.
I'd argue an actually healthy Pugh was worth a first round pick as he was a pretty good versatile offensive lineman when healthy. Unfortunately that was rare.
I am trying to refrain from getting my hopes up that Chase falls to 11 cause I know it won't happen but every little nugget of someone else going top 10 makes my eyebrow raise uncontrollably.
Sewell nor SLater - the two highest rated tackles in the class )by consensus anyway) - haven't played football in a year.
After a year off, it wouldn't surprise me if Sewell were Orlando Pace and SLater was T. Wirfs....
It also wouldn't surprise me if either or both end up being Ereck Flowers.
I agree, one of Waddle, Smith, Parsons or Pitts will most likely be there at 11 when the Giants pick.
Don't overthink it.
Cowboys covet both players in their draft evaluations.
That "word on the curb" is going to stick more than most years.
Cowboys covet both players in their draft evaluations.
Both make sense for the Cowboys. Where would Surtain fit in that evaluation.
As far as Pitts goes with Dallas, I can see them drafting him but it is a poor allocation of resources imo. McCarthy hasn't been a big TE guy. He likes 4 WRs. They have 3 really good WR. Adding another pass catcher is not smart even though Pitts makes sense. I said it before but their huge mistake was paying Cooper all that money. I understand some might call it hindsight but it wasn't for me.
Is a healthy Justin Pugh worthy of the #11 pick? I don't think so. But that's me.
Zack Martin's pre-draft bios were pretty unimpressive as well. It was his work in the Senior Bowl that I think shot him up the board. When I read the reviews of Slater, they are reminiscent of a ton of overachieving, slightly undersized tackles with those "technician" and "versatile" labels... as well as, "he may have to shift to guard at the pro level."
Those guys seldom end up like Martin. They often end up being decent players, but again, we're talking about the #11 pick.
If you are drafting Slater at #11, you are probably forcing the pick. (Again, this is a guy who didn't even play his final year... as mentioned above, how he is "moving up the boards" is beyond me. The tape hasn't changed in a year.
All things being equal, I'd like to add another OL. But they don't appear equal to me.
Read the contract, it was essentially a 2 year contract for $40M. After 2021, Cowboys can walk away from that contract with only a $6M hit in dead money. Very important if they consider Gallup essential after 2021 to re-sign,
Definitely Pitts would be in play at number 10 if available.
Jerry would be laughing on his yacht again.
Cowboys also view Slater as a plug in RT in this draft.
Read the contract, it was essentially a 2 year contract for $40M. After 2021, Cowboys can walk away from that contract with only a $6M hit in dead money. Very important if they consider Gallup essential after 2021 to re-sign,
Definitely Pitts would be in play at number 10 if available.
Jerry would be laughing on his yacht again.
Cowboys also view Slater as a plug in RT in this draft.
Slater is probably a plug-in right tackle. No argument. The debate is how good a player he will be at the pro level.
Don't force it. Play into the strength of the draft.
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For the most part, the problem with Pugh was and is injuries. When he's healthy, he's a good lineman and his versatility makes him even more valuable. I don't watch enough college football to know anything about Slater but assuming his injury career doesn't turn out like Pugh's, finding a guy that could hold a line position for a decade with the ability to play other positions at a high level in a pinch, would be worth the 11th pick.
Is a healthy Justin Pugh worthy of the #11 pick? I don't think so. But that's me.
Zack Martin's pre-draft bios were pretty unimpressive as well. It was his work in the Senior Bowl that I think shot him up the board. When I read the reviews of Slater, they are reminiscent of a ton of overachieving, slightly undersized tackles with those "technician" and "versatile" labels... as well as, "he may have to shift to guard at the pro level."
Those guys seldom end up like Martin. They often end up being decent players, but again, we're talking about the #11 pick.
If you are drafting Slater at #11, you are probably forcing the pick. (Again, this is a guy who didn't even play his final year... as mentioned above, how he is "moving up the boards" is beyond me. The tape hasn't changed in a year.
^This. I won't hate Slater at #11, but I am biased against players who opted out. I don't blame them for doing so, but I'd prefer not to draft one at #11. Exceptions would be Sewell and Chase. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Giants passed on Slater.
I still think it will be Waddle, Smith, or Surtain, probably in that order.
I don't see the Giants being able to trade down, even if they want to do so. All five QBs are likely to go before #11. I don't think anyone would trade up for a non QB.
Yes, but what is the "draft community" and are they really "experts"? It seems to me in recent years, this "draft community" is way, way off from what happens in the draft, even with the first three picks.
It seems like when the "draft community" was much smaller back in the day, they were more accurate. I'm talking about guys like Joel Buchsbaum.
Read the contract, it was essentially a 2 year contract for $40M. After 2021, Cowboys can walk away from that contract with only a $6M hit in dead money. Very important if they consider Gallup essential after 2021 to re-sign,
Definitely Pitts would be in play at number 10 if available.
Jerry would be laughing on his yacht again.
Cowboys also view Slater as a plug in RT in this draft.
Interesting. Thanks. Gallup is a very good receiver that isn't appreciated enough.
Everyone was convinced Sam Darnold was a sure thing. It's why the bulk of BBI thought Gettleman was an idiot for not drafting him.
Gettleman may be an idiot, but he made the right call on Darnold.
Everyone was convinced Sam Darnold was a sure thing. It's why the bulk of BBI thought Gettleman was an idiot for not drafting him.
Gettleman may be an idiot, but he made the right call on Darnold.
This is why I get annoyed with the non stop criticism of the Saquon pick. I totally understand the argument against Saquon. But, would it have been better had the Giants drafted Darnold or Rosen at two?
From what I understand, the combine is where a lot of these draft community members get their whisper down the lane type intel...and that didn't happen this year.
Everyone is in their own little COVID bubble, zoom meeting, watching tape from 2 years ago and dealing with BS pro-day info....
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other thing I will say about the "draft community" is that it is exceptionally vulnerable to group think. They all move in a herd.
Everyone was convinced Sam Darnold was a sure thing. It's why the bulk of BBI thought Gettleman was an idiot for not drafting him.
Gettleman may be an idiot, but he made the right call on Darnold.
This is why I get annoyed with the non stop criticism of the Saquon pick. I totally understand the argument against Saquon. But, would it have been better had the Giants drafted Darnold or Rosen at two?
That and Chubb would've been the pick if not Barkley.
From what I understand, the combine is where a lot of these draft community members get their whisper down the lane type intel...and that didn't happen this year.
Everyone is in their own little COVID bubble, zoom meeting, watching tape from 2 years ago and dealing with BS pro-day info....
Interesting point.
I will also throw this out there... the NFL uses the media like other organizations use the media now. They will leak stories for a purpose. It's a lot more disingenuous now.
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I think he's going top 15 for sure.
Yes, but what is the "draft community" and are they really "experts"? It seems to me in recent years, this "draft community" is way, way off from what happens in the draft, even with the first three picks.
It seems like when the "draft community" was much smaller back in the day, they were more accurate. I'm talking about guys like Joel Buchsbaum.
My circle for draft guys is small. I listen to Brugler, Jeremiah, Zierlin and occasionally Tony Pauline. I'm pretty selective. There are so many people trying to be "draft guys" that I think there's a lot of junk info out there.
It turns out to be true, and he’s had a decent career. But, in no way shape or form was he worth a first round pick.
Everyone was convinced Sam Darnold was a sure thing. It's why the bulk of BBI thought Gettleman was an idiot for not drafting him.
Gettleman may be an idiot, but he made the right call on Darnold.
BBI is the same way. Once BBI thinks there's a consensus, anything that goes against it is a bad pick.
It turns out to be true, and he’s had a decent career. But, in no way shape or form was he worth a first round pick.
The real judgement call on that depends on the players who also went in the first round.
He's probably going to have a 10 year career out of the 19th overall pick.
This list is full of bad players. It wasn't a great draft.
Then with about a week or two before the draft as teams' preferences started leaking, Andrew Thomas started getting late hype and was being mock drafted as the 1st OT off the board more often and had some BBI threads at the time claiming he was the best OT option.
On the day of the draft, Thomas was obviously the #1 OT taken by the Giants but we also heard rumors that he was the #1 OT on more team big boards than any of the other guys.
So did Andrew Thomas go from being the consensus #1 OT option for an entire college season through 2 months before the draft, then drop to being the #4 OT with 2 months left, then go back to being the #1 OT with 1 week left? Or was he the #1 OT the entire time and the media didn't realize until right before the draft?
Dude it’s a very good tackle class and the depth of the tackle class is light years ahead of last season. I somehow wonder where your information comes from to be honest. You throw a lot of shit out there and hope something sticks
New York Giants Mock Draft - ( New Window )
You are JonC - no doubt.
So correct me if I"m wrong here - there were a lot of scouts straight drooling over Sewell ... like to the point of many thinking scouts saying he would be better than the big 4 T that came out last year...
am I making that up or misremembering?
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other thing I will say about the "draft community" is that it is exceptionally vulnerable to group think. They all move in a herd.
Everyone was convinced Sam Darnold was a sure thing. It's why the bulk of BBI thought Gettleman was an idiot for not drafting him.
Gettleman may be an idiot, but he made the right call on Darnold.
This is why I get annoyed with the non stop criticism of the Saquon pick. I totally understand the argument against Saquon. But, would it have been better had the Giants drafted Darnold or Rosen at two?
I think it would have been. In that scenario:
1. We probably still go about 15-33, probably not much worse...hard to be worse than that over three years in the NFL
2. We save about $45M in cap space that was spent on Eli in 2018 and 2019
3. We don't force the Jones pick in desperation in 2019
4. We'd be a year ahead in the QB cycle...we'd probably be looking for a QB in this draft. As it stands now we'll probably be looking for one next year or in the 2023 draft.
I think picking Barkley was the worst possible option at #2.
But, I will concede the thought process behind picking him was probably the least big picture critical to be made.
Cowboys covet both players in their draft evaluations.
I have been saying that Pitts if he makes it to 10 is a very Jerry Jones pick. Even with other needs there and great players there. I would bet so much on if Pitts falls to 10 he is a Cowboy.
I personally prefer Sewell's size at tackle, though feel he'll likely need a season to approach his true potential.
Slater Review - ( New Window )
Sewell Review - ( New Window )
Anything that goes with instant impact does,so you're talking Wide Receiver or TE on offense.
This makes no sense. You dont draft a tackle at 11 who you want to play Guard. If you draft a tackle at 11 he should be one of your top 2 tackles.
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at number 10. Book it!!!
Cowboys covet both players in their draft evaluations.
I have been saying that Pitts if he makes it to 10 is a very Jerry Jones pick. Even with other needs there and great players there. I would bet so much on if Pitts falls to 10 he is a Cowboy.
I can't see Jerry Jones passing on Micah Parsons. He fits need and culture on that team.
I think WR is less of a target based on what Mara said yesterday.
He said this near the end of the presser; and the draft piece wasn't part of the question. It seemed like an honest confession...
So if I had to stack in as of now, based on some of the intel shared, I would say the likely options are:
1. Pitts - if he falls
2. Defense (corner, edge)
3. OL
4. WR
Really? Over Surtain too?
In that order?
Pitts should be challenging Chase for the one hole in that list...
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they're still targeting a receiver, be it a WR or Pitts. If they're gone, they go Edge.
Really? Over Surtain too?
This is my issue. If they really want edge, I hope they find a trade partner because I don't see an edge I like at 11 compared to the rest of the folks I expect there. I'd take Slater and plug him at guard just because I think he's a better player than any of the edges I see in this part of the draft. Same for Surtain or Farley. I'd take them despite the stacked secondary over the guys I see available.
I definitely see that Edge is our biggest need. I just don't see it as matching the value of the 11th pick.
What Alabama WR hasn't played out of their mind the last 3-4 years? Did you see the year Waddle was having before he got hurt? ;)
Hell, Pitts had 12 TDs in only 8 games as a TE. Which is pretty damn impressive, and averaging 18 YPC.
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"draft community" has never been so separated from the NFL community than this year.
From what I understand, the combine is where a lot of these draft community members get their whisper down the lane type intel...and that didn't happen this year.
Everyone is in their own little COVID bubble, zoom meeting, watching tape from 2 years ago and dealing with BS pro-day info....
Interesting point.
I will also throw this out there... the NFL uses the media like other organizations use the media now. They will leak stories for a purpose. It's a lot more disingenuous now.
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Jedi level. WR > TE
What Alabama WR hasn't played out of their mind the last 3-4 years? Did you see the year Waddle was having before he got hurt? ;)
Hell, Pitts had 12 TDs in only 8 games as a TE. Which is pretty damn impressive, and averaging 18 YPC.
The guy is an amazing punt and kick returner. GExcellent at both. Fastest GPS of anyone in CFB. I think he wins the Heisman had he not been injured. Avg 24.4 per return in 2019, 24.4 on punts is stupid good. Fabulous receiver as well. More stout than Smith.
Has Deon Sanders game speed.
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In comment 15205961 JonC said:
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Jedi level. WR > TE
What Alabama WR hasn't played out of their mind the last 3-4 years? Did you see the year Waddle was having before he got hurt? ;)
Hell, Pitts had 12 TDs in only 8 games as a TE. Which is pretty damn impressive, and averaging 18 YPC.
Waddle is the guy. I know you all want to see him run. If it causes him to drop to us I am good.
The guy is an amazing punt and kick returner. GExcellent at both. Fastest GPS of anyone in CFB. I think he wins the Heisman had he not been injured. Avg 24.4 per return in 2019, 24.4 on punts is stupid good. Fabulous receiver as well. More stout than Smith.
Has Deon Sanders game speed.
We kicked Waddle around here in 2019. I think Sy even thought he was the best receiver in the group which included, at the time, Juedy, Ruggs, and Smitty. He was electric. And he was off to a blazing start in '20 until he got hurt.
But I would like to see him run and do drills before I even considered an investment at #11. His game is so predicated on speed and quickness that that needs to be confirmed or you are taking on big risk...
Everyone was convinced Sam Darnold was a sure thing. It's why the bulk of BBI thought Gettleman was an idiot for not drafting him.
Gettleman may be an idiot, but he made the right call on Darnold.
I truly believe that system, coach, supporting cast all go a long into the development of talent. All of these 'what if we drafted this guy over this guy' are impossible to quantify because part of what makes them great were the situations they were put in.
Would Tom Brady have had the career he had if he wasn't linked up with BB and the Patriots?
Would Josh Allen be where he is at if he was drafted by the Jets and would Darnold be where Allen was if drafted by Buffalo? I think both are 'no'.
It used to drive me nuts when would draft these tweener 4-3 DEs (Clint Sintim types) and try to teach them to play DE in a 4-3. It's like draft guys that fit your system, don't try and shoehorn talent into you system.
I applaud teams like Balt and Arizona for changing the offense to fit the QB, not the other way around.
Then with about a week or two before the draft as teams' preferences started leaking, Andrew Thomas started getting late hype and was being mock drafted as the 1st OT off the board more often and had some BBI threads at the time claiming he was the best OT option.
On the day of the draft, Thomas was obviously the #1 OT taken by the Giants but we also heard rumors that he was the #1 OT on more team big boards than any of the other guys.
So did Andrew Thomas go from being the consensus #1 OT option for an entire college season through 2 months before the draft, then drop to being the #4 OT with 2 months left, then go back to being the #1 OT with 1 week left? Or was he the #1 OT the entire time and the media didn't realize until right before the draft?
This is basically the gist of it.
Although Thomas was the first one taken because the Giants wanted to ensure they got a Left Tackle to succeed Solder or beat him out. The other top tackles hadn't really played left tackle enough, if at all, in college to be certain of it.
2) watch how they got Waddle off the line. Trouble getting off the line is an issue that can drop a 1st round Wr. Is he as good at this as Smith or Chase or Pitt?
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is a good example of when you take a guy in the 1st round who seems to be a fine player who can “play a number of positions.”
TTH, I would have taken 7 players over Pugh out of the list you sent
It turns out to be true, and he’s had a decent career. But, in no way shape or form was he worth a first round pick.
The real judgement call on that depends on the players who also went in the first round.
He's probably going to have a 10 year career out of the 19th overall pick.
This list is full of bad players. It wasn't a great draft.
Slater looks like an awesome guard. But - i don’t think DG and Judge wants to continue to build the team that way.
Didn't Slater also opt out?
2) watch how they got Waddle off the line. Trouble getting off the line is an issue that can drop a 1st round Wr. Is he as good at this as Smith or Chase or Pitt?
He's a classic Z receiver. But when he's in motion, he a handful because when he gets that running start there aren't going to be many corners - if any - who can touch this guy.
(Assuming, of course, Waddle is fully recovered from the ankle and has his quickness and speed.)
Right, so Sewell opting out is NOT why he's not the consensus OT1, since the other OT who tends to be OT1 in mocks where Sewell isn't the top OT also opted out.
There may be some good reasons why some prognosticators have Slater ahead of Sewell, and they may be justified. Opt-out status just can't be one of the reasons at this position.
Really? You don't think guys like Toney, Bateman, Marshall, Moore, Brown, etc are close to the aforementioned?
you think he gets off the line better than Chase or Smith?
I said nothing about when he is already in motion. I didn't even say he wasn't possibly a very disruptive 1st round player.
I said there is a reason some will rate him third or fourth behind Chase, Smith, Pitts as a receiving talent ( imo, he would be first as a returner).
So overall would some take his overall offering higher than the others? Yep.
Would some consider his Wr only potential lesser? I think some will.
It's not malpractice to come to either ranking.
Maybe the Giants want returns in the hands of Ross for his incredible speed. Maybe they don't want blazing speed but sure hands and judgement. Maybe they want vision and not Waddle like acceleration. I dont know. So I don't know if Waddle would be higher on their board as a total explosive player.
Surtain
Rousseau
Smith
Waddle
Pitts
Slater
Parsons?
Thats basically everyone going in the top 15 haha. You take everything very personally and your constant line of Hes in play is sickening. You haven’t taken one stance. Your adamant about defense being the better value pick at 11 when that’s total BS. Your covering every angle to correct. Pick a player or players and stick with it. Have a legit opinion with insight. People look to you for knowledge, which I truthfully don’t understand why, and they must come away more confused then when they went in.
Go look at my history. I had slater as my number 1 OT before Daniel Jeremiah came out with his rankings. Go Take a look. I’ve been adamant that I want Slater, waddle or smith.
This edge class stinks. Taking an edge at 11 would be a horrible mistake considering all The guys available round 2. Again, saying the value is on defense end then saying the giants seem to be targeting a WR. Then you contridict yourslef and say they may target and edge. Yea I have a guess also, I think they may draft a football player but I’m not sure.
Damn bbi has become crap. I’ll sign off permanently and allow all of you to listen to the self proclaimed bbi expert ( in pc opinions) JonC
Surtain
Rousseau
Smith
Waddle
Pitts
Slater
Parsons?
Thats basically everyone going in the top 15 haha. You take everything very personally and your constant line of Hes in play is sickening. You haven’t taken one stance. Your adamant about defense being the better value pick at 11 when that’s total BS. Your covering every angle to correct. Pick a player or players and stick with it. Have a legit opinion with insight. People look to you for knowledge, which I truthfully don’t understand why, and they must come away more confused then when they went in.
Go look at my history. I had slater as my number 1 OT before Daniel Jeremiah came out with his rankings. Go Take a look. I’ve been adamant that I want Slater, waddle or smith.
This edge class stinks. Taking an edge at 11 would be a horrible mistake considering all The guys available round 2. Again, saying the value is on defense end then saying the giants seem to be targeting a WR. Then you contridict yourslef and say they may target and edge. Yea I have a guess also, I think they may draft a football player but I’m not sure.
Damn bbi has become crap. I’ll sign off permanently and allow all of you to listen to the self proclaimed bbi expert ( in pc opinions) JonC
Um JonC every day of the week. I have learned things I did not know previously because of his posts. You, I got nothing. Your next good post will be your first good post.
Surtain
Rousseau
Smith
Waddle
Pitts
Slater
Parsons?
Thats basically everyone going in the top 15 haha. You take everything very personally and your constant line of Hes in play is sickening. You haven’t taken one stance. Your adamant about defense being the better value pick at 11 when that’s total BS. Your covering every angle to correct. Pick a player or players and stick with it. Have a legit opinion with insight. People look to you for knowledge, which I truthfully don’t understand why, and they must come away more confused then when they went in.
Go look at my history. I had slater as my number 1 OT before Daniel Jeremiah came out with his rankings. Go Take a look. I’ve been adamant that I want Slater, waddle or smith.
This edge class stinks. Taking an edge at 11 would be a horrible mistake considering all The guys available round 2. Again, saying the value is on defense end then saying the giants seem to be targeting a WR. Then you contridict yourslef and say they may target and edge. Yea I have a guess also, I think they may draft a football player but I’m not sure.
Damn bbi has become crap. I’ll sign off permanently and allow all of you to listen to the self proclaimed bbi expert ( in pc opinions) JonC
Wow, someone's having a GOOD Good Friday.
Yea so you don’t remember me saying Kaden smith is a great blocker. Sy Shat on Kaden smith blocking until Bobby skinner made a YouTube video about his blocking. Proceed to not learn. Also, glad bbi found slater about 3 months after my initial post. Carry on good sir
I don’t gamble but interesting analogy
For you?
The Site?
Other posters? ( who make up their own minds anyway)
Jon?
For you?
The Site?
Other posters? ( who make up their own minds anyway)
Jon?
To answer your question I’d say a combination of entertainment and also show bbi that the “insight” Jon provides isnt insight. He basically names every non QB in the top 15 as “in play” it’s just nuts to me that bbi looks to him for info. Has he ever given a breakdown of any prospect? If anyone can find “insight” let me know.
Who cares anyway? He provides good insights, explains his stance well (the info he's allowed to share anyway), and usually makes for good discussion. If he's wrong, what does it matter unless you are gambling with his info, in which youd only have yourself to blame anyway?
2) You think the rest of us need you to point things out about other posters?
3) You are aware that early in the process before the draft board is set there are Giants employees reporting and advocating for about a dozen different players? Every year this is true?
4) Jon's sources pre Judge ( dont know how this plays out now) were pretty reliable as it got much closer to draft time?
5) That this draft given an 11 slot and an odd pre draft Covid influenced process was always going to be loaded with a wide range of rumors, truths, reports and "sources"
6) Imo, Judges head is where the draft takes place and he doesnt tell anyone until the last steps of the process so why rotate on what Jon says this year? Likely all from some Giant source but not the relevant one
Net net, have you made this what we remember about you or about Jon?
Kinda odd to jump into a thread twice in two separate days to rip on a poster and think thats about them and not really about you?
But I admire his willingness to put his ass on the line here at BBI with information or an opinion. And he seems pretty knowledgeable about the technical aspects of position play. So he's usually a good read - to me.
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especially at the top of the first. Quite frankly, suspect if the Giants pick Slater it means all their WR and Edge targets are gone. Very unlikely and a suboptimal choice, imo.
Dude it’s a very good tackle class and the depth of the tackle class is light years ahead of last season. I somehow wonder where your information comes from to be honest. You throw a lot of shit out there and hope something sticks
You really are a shitstain. You know that?
He's undoubtedly one of the best all-around posters on BBI
I post what I'm able to share when I'm able to. That is to say I'm told what to not share here. I've been crystal clear about that for years. I'm also clear when it's my opinion.
Right now FOUR WEEKS from the draft, as I've posted before, all I've got for sourced info is the three Bama players, Pitts, and they're looking at Edge. Nothing new.
Earlier in this thread, I gave my opinion : they're going WR or Pitts, and if they're all gone I'd wager it's Edge. That's because there's multiple ways a draft could break, just run a few mocks and that becomes clear, and logical, common sense.
Don't know what your problem is, other than I must be contradicting your opinions and you don't like it. Bottom line, you don't like it, don't fucking read it.
Group think at this time of year is most of what we have, for a few more weeks. The love for the three BAMA kids was well-known early in March, no different than other year as targets slowly leak out.
Bill2. Also, you handled it nicely coming to Jon’s defense while actually writing a coherent well thought out post. I’m not running from my comments and I respect the responses I got. I’ll step away from bbi as I don’t intend to make it a worse environment. I’ve been very supportive of the site for many many many years and Eric can attest to that. I may be a dickhead sometimes, or all the time, depending who you ask.
JonC. My apologies to you
Bill2. My apologies as well and I took to heart some of the stuff you wrote. Again, I’m not running away I read it all and took it to heart and bill wasn’t all that wrong
UConn I still don’t get the gambling reference maybe that’s a little deflection on your part ? You can always call gamblers anonymous
Nothing is a given in the draft and the dynamic changes with each player drafted.
In the end, what is heard before the draft can change when an unexpected player or two are drafted out of sequence. Players become available or unavailable.
JonC, as he said, was very clear in what he heard and Rico has virtually backed that up. But they cannot know exactly what JJ and DG(and staff) are saying and thinking and if they do need, to protect their sources or lose those sources.
Takes a good man to write that last post. Kudos.
You are a good poster. Have been for years. None of us are our best or worst posts.
Take care.