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The Athletic: Some NFL execs on the Giants spending

Big Blue '56 : 4/2/2021 9:22 am
I subscribe to the Athletic. Not sure where I can link for entire 32 team assessments.

Quote:

“New England was good,” an evaluator said. “It cost a lot of money, but they had to do something to try to turn it around there. I put the Giants in the same category. They spent too much money relative to what they acquired, but they needed to acquire what they acquired

Some teams operate from a position of strength during free agency. The 2021 Giants were not one of them.

Leonard Williams held the leverage in negotiations as a player the team acquired via trade, helping him land a three-year, $63 million contract to rank behind only Joey Bosa, Myles Garrett and Aaron Donald among defensive linemen. The Giants paid $18 million a year for Kenny Golladay when the next receiver in free agency earned $12.5 million. They paid $13 million a year for cornerback Adoree Jackson, who actually got a raise over what he was earning from Tennessee, the team that cut him.

“What they paid was ridiculous to me, but who they got wasn’t a problem,” an exec said. “They had trouble getting receivers to go there, so the Golladay deal is kind of what happens. I don’t know how they got Adoree Jackson to $13 million. Adoree is talented but has been hurt a lot. Kyle Rudolph can be a good signing because they can go to 12 personnel now and be really good.”

Giants owner John Mara acknowledged the high prices, joking that critics can call the team stupid, but not cheap.

“The Adoree Jackson deal was inexcusable,” an exec said. “And then they went and jeopardized their future cap by converting guys to get all these deals done. The potential for disaster is high.”

The team is betting on Golladay, who missed 11 games last season, and Jackson, who missed 18 games over the past two seasons. Rudolph is 31 and missed four games last season after a five-year run without missing any.

“Going into free agency, the cap was lower and a lot of teams did not have much ammo,” an evaluator said. “The longer you waited, the bigger the bargains were going to be. Adoree Jackson was late in the process. He should have been a bargain, and he wasn’t. That was questionable.”

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RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 1:15 pm : link
In comment 15207028 GiantsFan84 said:
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In comment 15207023 Eric on Li said:


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In comment 15207017 GiantsFan84 said:


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this has been their problem for 15 years. they can't fix positions. the teams spends draft picks and free agent dollars (significant picks and significant dollars) to fix the CB position and OL position and they never get fixed. and because of this they can't improve other positions and depth because every year they have to spend more picks or more money on the positions they can't fix



Do you think it looked like they started to fix each of the 3 levels of the defense last year? and the OL over the back half of the year?

With the youngest starting 22 in the NFL and a first year coaching staff there are reasons to believe they are starting to fix things (and bringing things home to this thread the veteran acquisitions of Bradberry, Williams, Ryan, Martinez, Peppers were all a big part of that improvement).



CB was not fixed. they had 1 CB who can play. this after using a shit ton of picks, including a first rounder on baker. OL was not fixed despite paying a shit ton for solder and zeitler, using a first on thomas, and a second on hernandez


"fixed" is a misnomer. Was there improvement?
RE: they need answers to 2 questions  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 1:16 pm : link
In comment 15207029 BigBlueCane said:
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is Judge the Guy and is Jones the QB?

This spending spree will answer both hopefully.


Or it at least helps increase the probability of both continuing to improve as opposed to regressing.
Lets just hope that  
Dankbeerman : 4/2/2021 1:18 pm : link
the biggest effect of the spending is that we have a great opportunity to be flexable and work the draft to our advantage to set us up with more talent for 22 and beyond.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
GiantsFan84 : 4/2/2021 1:21 pm : link
In comment 15207034 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15207028 GiantsFan84 said:


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In comment 15207023 Eric on Li said:


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In comment 15207017 GiantsFan84 said:


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this has been their problem for 15 years. they can't fix positions. the teams spends draft picks and free agent dollars (significant picks and significant dollars) to fix the CB position and OL position and they never get fixed. and because of this they can't improve other positions and depth because every year they have to spend more picks or more money on the positions they can't fix



Do you think it looked like they started to fix each of the 3 levels of the defense last year? and the OL over the back half of the year?

With the youngest starting 22 in the NFL and a first year coaching staff there are reasons to believe they are starting to fix things (and bringing things home to this thread the veteran acquisitions of Bradberry, Williams, Ryan, Martinez, Peppers were all a big part of that improvement).



CB was not fixed. they had 1 CB who can play. this after using a shit ton of picks, including a first rounder on baker. OL was not fixed despite paying a shit ton for solder and zeitler, using a first on thomas, and a second on hernandez



"fixed" is a misnomer. Was there improvement?


i will repeat they had 1 CB that can play last year. CB was so bad they felt the need to go out and pay jackson 13M a year

do you understand how many resources they've spent on this secondary?

2 starting CBs are making 13M and 15M (both free agent signings). ryan is making 10M (free agent signing). peppers was a centerpiece in the OBJ trade. mckinney a HIGH 2nd round pick. and this is on top of the failed picks of baker, beal, love, ballentine, holmes is TBD, yiadom cost a 7th i believe. that is an enormous amount of resources.

and as for the OL i'd say it's as bad now as its ever been
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 4/2/2021 1:22 pm : link
In comment 15207015 Eric on Li said:
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Exactly right. The difference this year is gambling on guys without clean injury histories. That's the gamble. Not the utilization of free agency writ large as a tool to improve the roster.


From a pure market standpoint I like free agency more. The player has a body of work in the NFL you can judge, and you have as good of opportunity as anyone to sign the player.

I don't think there's anything inherently that beneficial in re-signing your own player, that outweighs finding the right talent and need in the open market.
Past mistakes are not worth crying about  
DavidinBMNY : 4/2/2021 1:25 pm : link
But the golden opportunity to rebuild through the draft is when they had the #2 pick and they didn't parlay that into multi-year draft capital.

Sure DG has made other mistakes, but if you want to rebuild through the draft you need to have more picks given injuries and busts.

I don't think that mistake will happen again. I don't think as much power sits with DG anymore.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 1:28 pm : link
In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:
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do you understand how many resources they've spent on this secondary?


Do you understand the resource trends with investment in DBs? Do you know how much Miami has invested in their DBs? Or the Ravens? Or the Pats? (hint: more than the NYG).

In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:
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and as for the OL i'd say it's as bad now as its ever been


Don't agree on that but you are free to your opinion. Last year over the second half of the year with 2 currently unsigned backup RBs they set a franchise record for the most consecutive games with 100+ yards rushing.
Adoree Jackson  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 4/2/2021 1:39 pm : link
Seems to be the only one that the execs are confused about and I can see that. The Giants paid him A LOT of money despite his injuries and inconsistency. The talent is there and he has shown elite coverage potential at times but 2020 wasn’t a good year for him and then he got cut.

This team desperately needed a legit NFL starting caliber CB2 and they overpaid to get it. Hopefully Jackson stays healthy and delivers.
If the Giants don't get into the habit of consistent DRAFTING  
M.S. : 4/2/2021 1:42 pm : link

all the free agents in the world won't get this ship turned around.

We need more hits than misses, and we need that for several consecutive Drafts.

Otherwise, 2014 to 2030 will look just like 1964 to 1980.
well then I'll ask the audience  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2021 1:46 pm : link
what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
GiantsFan84 : 4/2/2021 1:48 pm : link
In comment 15207052 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:


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do you understand how many resources they've spent on this secondary?



Do you understand the resource trends with investment in DBs? Do you know how much Miami has invested in their DBs? Or the Ravens? Or the Pats? (hint: more than the NYG).

In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:


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and as for the OL i'd say it's as bad now as its ever been



Don't agree on that but you are free to your opinion. Last year over the second half of the year with 2 currently unsigned backup RBs they set a franchise record for the most consecutive games with 100+ yards rushing.


i don't want this to come across like i'm arguing with you because i'm not.

but how was the pass blocking during that stretch? who on this line right now is any good outside of thomas and gates? and that line had zeitler who is no longer on the team and was arguably their best lineman. i do not consider that improvement
A major criticism of the three top free agent contracts is that  
Marty in Albany : 4/2/2021 1:49 pm : link
all three players missed games due to injury last year and are therefore risks to miss games this year, too.

If, in fact, the risk is significant, then the NFL execs are right and the Giants are "stupid."

Are the Giants stupid? Maybe. It depends on the reliability of the medical exams given to the free agents before the the Giants signed them.

If the medical exams confirm that the injuries causing the missed games in 2020 are no longer problems for 2021, then fine. If the Giants can't reliably confirm the health status of their three top free agents, then shame on them.
In retrospect  
Bill2 : 4/2/2021 1:50 pm : link
We could have taken advantage of the QB crazed teams and traded down from slot 2.

RE: well then I'll ask the audience  
GiantsFan84 : 4/2/2021 1:53 pm : link
In comment 15207067 UConn4523 said:
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what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...


i've said on this and other threads what i would have done. i would have accepted that the team is rebuilding and it would take another couple seasons of gradual improvement primarily through the draft. i would have wrote jones off as a bad pick and worked on improving the remaining part of the roster with the draft. i would have already extended peppers.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 1:55 pm : link
In comment 15207070 GiantsFan84 said:
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In comment 15207052 Eric on Li said:


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In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:


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do you understand how many resources they've spent on this secondary?



Do you understand the resource trends with investment in DBs? Do you know how much Miami has invested in their DBs? Or the Ravens? Or the Pats? (hint: more than the NYG).

In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:


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and as for the OL i'd say it's as bad now as its ever been



Don't agree on that but you are free to your opinion. Last year over the second half of the year with 2 currently unsigned backup RBs they set a franchise record for the most consecutive games with 100+ yards rushing.



i don't want this to come across like i'm arguing with you because i'm not.

but how was the pass blocking during that stretch? who on this line right now is any good outside of thomas and gates? and that line had zeitler who is no longer on the team and was arguably their best lineman. i do not consider that improvement


on the whole pressure rate went down as did turnovers. They had a few poor games against strong teams when Jones was hurt (AZ, CLE, BAL) and OL statistics aren't example easy to analyze but the back half of the year I believe was statistically a big improvement from the front half. And a big reason why they went 5-3 in their last 8.
RE: RE: Eric  
santacruzom : 4/2/2021 1:57 pm : link
In comment 15206775 Eric from BBI said:
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In comment 15206750 ryanmkeane said:


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just don't pretend that 10M of dead cap space is significant. It's not, and it's a dumb argument to be honest.



The NFL salary cap is not actually that large when you take into account 53 contracts. So anything above 5 percent is "significant", especially when it is year after year after year:

NYG dead money as a percentage of the cap by year:

2021: 5.6 percent (so far)
2020: 10.8 percent
2019: 28.1 percent
2018: 24.7 percent

So yes, the trend is down, but you can see from 2018 and 2019 that when you screw up in a FA signing, it can crush you like 2018 and 2019.

You are argue 5.6 percent doesn't really matter. It does in that it prevents you from keeping someone like Tomlinson or signing another reasonably priced free agent. It's like interest on debt. It's just wasted money.


I would argue that the degree to which it matters depends on a combination with other factors that determine whether or not you are a good team. For example, 10 million dollars in dead money probably means nothing to a relatively stacked team that annually makes the playoffs. But that amount of money could be both a problem and a symptom of larger issues to a team that is or has been routinely bad, such as ours.
that isn't really a plan though  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2021 1:57 pm : link
so no spending until when? When we move on from Jones who's our QB? What happens when plan A of building through the draft doesn't work out - what's plan B?
RE: well then I'll ask the audience  
Go Terps : 4/2/2021 1:59 pm : link
In comment 15207067 UConn4523 said:
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what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...


I wouldn't have paid that kind of money for Golladay and Jackson, who combined started 7 games last year.

I'd have paid Williams and Tomlinson, and focused the remainder of FA on the Ross/Shelton/Ragland/Odenigbo type signings...short deals for small dollars. One exception though...I would have gone a different route at backup QB. I'd have targeted Brissett or Tyrod Taylor. Both are more expensive than Glennon, but it's still a drop in the bucket to what Golladay and Jackson got. Signing Glennon tells me:

- They don't want to make Jones uncomfortable
- The Jones injury freaked them out, and he's going to be used less as a runner in 2021

I do agree with cosmicj above that Jones is unlikely to see a second contract here, and thus the Golladay and Jackson expenditures won't be too painful on the cap long term.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
GiantsFan84 : 4/2/2021 2:02 pm : link
In comment 15207077 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15207070 GiantsFan84 said:


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In comment 15207052 Eric on Li said:


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In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:


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do you understand how many resources they've spent on this secondary?



Do you understand the resource trends with investment in DBs? Do you know how much Miami has invested in their DBs? Or the Ravens? Or the Pats? (hint: more than the NYG).

In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:




and as for the OL i'd say it's as bad now as its ever been



Don't agree on that but you are free to your opinion. Last year over the second half of the year with 2 currently unsigned backup RBs they set a franchise record for the most consecutive games with 100+ yards rushing.



i don't want this to come across like i'm arguing with you because i'm not.

but how was the pass blocking during that stretch? who on this line right now is any good outside of thomas and gates? and that line had zeitler who is no longer on the team and was arguably their best lineman. i do not consider that improvement



on the whole pressure rate went down as did turnovers. They had a few poor games against strong teams when Jones was hurt (AZ, CLE, BAL) and OL statistics aren't example easy to analyze but the back half of the year I believe was statistically a big improvement from the front half. And a big reason why they went 5-3 in their last 8.


they went 5-3 because of the following

eagles (horrible team)
bengals (backup QB and barely won)
cowboys (backup QB and barely won)
wft (kyle allen QB got injured in the beginning of the game)
seahawks - a very good win
I'm not sure I follow much of the criticism here  
Mike from Ohio : 4/2/2021 2:03 pm : link
The observation that they paid out a lot of money to free agent players with recent injury histories is a risk that could blow up on them. They didn't say it was reckless or stupid, they just pointed out something that is fairly obvious.

The Giants roster needed significant upgrades to be competitive. Regardless of the cause, that is where they were. They gambled on these guys being a big piece of that solution. Like everything else, it will be brilliant if it works and stupid if it doesn't. I don't know that I would have done anything differently if I was trying to snap out of a very long streak of not being competitive.

But to think someone must have a bias if they don't like signing Adoree Jackson to a significant raise after his current team just cut him to avoid paying him $10M is a bit silly.
RE: RE: well then I'll ask the audience  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2021 2:14 pm : link
In comment 15207081 Go Terps said:
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In comment 15207067 UConn4523 said:


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what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...



I wouldn't have paid that kind of money for Golladay and Jackson, who combined started 7 games last year.

I'd have paid Williams and Tomlinson, and focused the remainder of FA on the Ross/Shelton/Ragland/Odenigbo type signings...short deals for small dollars. One exception though...I would have gone a different route at backup QB. I'd have targeted Brissett or Tyrod Taylor. Both are more expensive than Glennon, but it's still a drop in the bucket to what Golladay and Jackson got. Signing Glennon tells me:

- They don't want to make Jones uncomfortable
- The Jones injury freaked them out, and he's going to be used less as a runner in 2021

I do agree with cosmicj above that Jones is unlikely to see a second contract here, and thus the Golladay and Jackson expenditures won't be too painful on the cap long term.


All fair, I would have been on board as well. Truth is I didn't want Golladay at that price but, and its a big but, I expect all FA prices to go up next year so i'm curious what his contract will look like compared to next years market.
No Risk It, No Biscuit  
kdog77 : 4/2/2021 2:15 pm : link
The primary question is whether the current roster is better than 2020 and if this team can win at least 3 more games. If healthy I think KG and Barkley can certainly make a difference in close games and shift pressure off the D. The big known unknown in all of these moves is whether DG's original gamble on Jones was right. We shall see.

I tend agree the Giants probably went overboard on FA spending and there is inherent risk in giving any player with injury history more money than their original team would offer them. However, the Giants will still have Jones on cheap rookie deal through 2023. All of the FA signings with the exception of KG expire in 2023. While we may not get the wins we expected out of the FA signings we hope for, I think the Giants are set up to take full advantage of Jones' rookie deal window in terms of surrounding him with talent. If not now, when?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 2:23 pm : link
In comment 15207084 GiantsFan84 said:
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they went 5-3 because of the following

eagles (horrible team)
bengals (backup QB and barely won)
cowboys (backup QB and barely won)
wft (kyle allen QB got injured in the beginning of the game)
seahawks - a very good win


either wins are wins and losses are losses or that game both ways. the week prior to the PHI win they played TB down to the last play of the game.

And the backup QB stuff is a little silly since they were playing with Colt McCoy in a bunch of those games. For all the hyperbole about his performance last year he threw 1 touchdown.
RE: Adoree Jackson  
christian : 4/2/2021 2:24 pm : link
In comment 15207061 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
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Seems to be the only one that the execs are confused about and I can see that. The Giants paid him A LOT of money despite his injuries and inconsistency. The talent is there and he has shown elite coverage potential at times but 2020 wasn’t a good year for him and then he got cut.

This team desperately needed a legit NFL starting caliber CB2 and they overpaid to get it. Hopefully Jackson stays healthy and delivers.


Jackson is a high risk/reward investment. If you know anything about my opinions, I am pro secondary and think it's the area to virtually always invest.

This is the one investment where I'm nervous.
RE: RE: Adoree Jackson  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 2:28 pm : link
In comment 15207105 christian said:
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In comment 15207061 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:


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Seems to be the only one that the execs are confused about and I can see that. The Giants paid him A LOT of money despite his injuries and inconsistency. The talent is there and he has shown elite coverage potential at times but 2020 wasn’t a good year for him and then he got cut.

This team desperately needed a legit NFL starting caliber CB2 and they overpaid to get it. Hopefully Jackson stays healthy and delivers.



Jackson is a high risk/reward investment. If you know anything about my opinions, I am pro secondary and think it's the area to virtually always invest.

This is the one investment where I'm nervous.


I agree. I'd have preferred a 1 year deal for Malcolm Butler (or another veteran) to both mitigate risk and have more money to spend elsewhere (then reinvest that $ in Trai Turner or Tomlinson maybe).

I can see the potential upside in a highly talented young player at a premium position with a lot more speed though. It just seems odd TEN would give up on him the way they did. Though I guess the Bears did the same with Floyd last year.
RE: well then I'll ask the audience  
Jimmy Googs : 4/2/2021 2:43 pm : link
In comment 15207067 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...


If kept the relative same basics then would have only spent up to what was available without restructuring any current deals and toned down the salary escalators in some others. This probably means losing either Golladay or Jackson as the result of that, but so be it.

If didn't keep the same basics:
- Would not have given Williams any deal once it hit $20M/year. Tag and trade if able. If not walk away and
would have then gotten a deal done with Tomlinson.
- Would not have done Golladay deal. Would have focused dollars on younger TE (Hunter most attractive) versus Rudolph. Would have traded or cut Engram.
- Would have used higher dollars to add something into the interior OL. Guard or Center (if Center, then moved Gates to RG).
- Would not have bothered with Booker & Toilolo deals.
- If the above allows for Jackson deal then okay. This was an odd one though for certain.
- Focus of Day 1 and Day 2 of Draft: WR, OL & TE
RE: RE: well then I'll ask the audience  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/2/2021 2:58 pm : link
In comment 15207075 GiantsFan84 said:
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In comment 15207067 UConn4523 said:


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what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...



i've said on this and other threads what i would have done. i would have accepted that the team is rebuilding and it would take another couple seasons of gradual improvement primarily through the draft. i would have wrote jones off as a bad pick and worked on improving the remaining part of the roster with the draft. i would have already extended peppers.


LOL. So, you would extend Peppers based on one year but written off Jones as a failed pick? I'm really fucking glad you aren't making the moves.

RE: RE: RE: well then I'll ask the audience  
GiantsFan84 : 4/2/2021 3:05 pm : link
In comment 15207129 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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In comment 15207075 GiantsFan84 said:


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In comment 15207067 UConn4523 said:


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what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...



i've said on this and other threads what i would have done. i would have accepted that the team is rebuilding and it would take another couple seasons of gradual improvement primarily through the draft. i would have wrote jones off as a bad pick and worked on improving the remaining part of the roster with the draft. i would have already extended peppers.



LOL. So, you would extend Peppers based on one year but written off Jones as a failed pick? I'm really fucking glad you aren't making the moves.


how'd not extending williams work out? i'd either extend peppers (my preference) or trade him

and yes about jones. i think he stinks
we tried extending Williams  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2021 3:10 pm : link
he thought he was worth more and won. Definitely no interest in going down that rabbit hole again but you can't make people sign.

What's Peppers' extension look like?
.  
Go Terps : 4/2/2021 3:17 pm : link
Schwartz reported that Williams's market value was $10M-$12M in March 2020. If Gettleman had just held his water (Gettleman's own words, if I remember right) and not traded for him, he probably would have been able to sign Williams for a fraction of what we're paying him now. But the juice was worth the squeeze.

That's one of Gettleman's failings - he falls in full bloom love and it makes him do stupid things.
Wow....1st....pretty much everything has some level of risk  
George from PA : 4/2/2021 3:30 pm : link
I contend much of the dead money is due to the coaching changes....

Injury prone is a problem....but was Galloday injury prone....or just injured?

Mara played it cool....but he knows where the cap is going
RE: RE: RE: RE: well then I'll ask the audience  
broadbandz : 4/2/2021 3:58 pm : link
In comment 15207141 GiantsFan84 said:
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In comment 15207129 FatMan in Charlotte said:


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In comment 15207075 GiantsFan84 said:


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In comment 15207067 UConn4523 said:


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what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...



i've said on this and other threads what i would have done. i would have accepted that the team is rebuilding and it would take another couple seasons of gradual improvement primarily through the draft. i would have wrote jones off as a bad pick and worked on improving the remaining part of the roster with the draft. i would have already extended peppers.



LOL. So, you would extend Peppers based on one year but written off Jones as a failed pick? I'm really fucking glad you aren't making the moves.




how'd not extending williams work out? i'd either extend peppers (my preference) or trade him

and yes about jones. i think he stinks


just stop watching the giants for about 5 yrs if you think Jones stinks because thats how long it will take to fix that problem. Glad you're still holding on to that pre-draft narrative on Jones.
Jones stinking  
Go Terps : 4/2/2021 4:05 pm : link
Is a pre-draft (read Sy's scouting report) and post-draft (performance speaks for itself) narrative.
There is a balance here  
NoGainDayne : 4/2/2021 4:24 pm : link
I definitely would prefer them to do things to actually put a winning football team on the field instead of overvaluing their talent and acting as if they will compete when they won't or can't. I do feel better about this roster than I have in quite a few years.

That being said, it is important that we look at these risks accurately. And they have been hamstrung by dead cap space too much recently, they've built too much through FA recently and it hasn't really worked. Far too often it seems like people's own optimism about the team and the moves turns into them remembering moves as less risky than they actually were. Or better decisions than they actually were.

While we have greatly increased our chances this year if Jones and Barkley are not ready to step up to their draft status the we aren't really in the best position to have a winning team because we have essentially overspent on supporting players meaning to win with this core we need players to be both elite and cheap which you don't put yourself in great position to get if you spend excessively to be mediocre...
....  
BrettNYG10 : 4/2/2021 4:43 pm : link
I very much like the risks the Giants took this off-season. They weren't absolute bargains, but that's fine.

The 2018-2020 drafts will be bigger drivers of team success than this off-season, though.

I think the Giants, for the first time under Gettleman, have built a roster with playoff potential (and not bullshit NFC East playoff potential). I wouldn't bet they'd get there, but I can see a path to a ten win team.
RE: ...  
ColHowPepper : 4/2/2021 4:47 pm : link
In comment 15206988 christian said:
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...
I *think* Judge is a better leader than Shurmur and McAdoo. Maybe he's not, and this year should be really telling. If Judge is the well prepared, emotionally intelligent, and accountable coach he appeared to be last year, the Giants are in good hands.
Yes and no. Judge will still be laboring under the handicap of two years of DG's poor drafts and the prior regime. And while signings have addressed certain key needs, nowhere have the failings of 8 years of poor drafting--plus really bad FA signings--hit harder than the OL. It is the black hole of Giants' doormatdom during this period. So, I remain mystified by the lack of spending even modestly for OL absent a plan I'm not privy to, or credible coaching staff assessment that the incumbents can approach League average. Most insiders here don't believe Giants will go OL day 1 because of other, legitimate needs. Last year's splurge on OL (1st, 3rd, 5th) largely remains 'don't sleep on 'Pio' redux until proven otherwise. We saw how 'Pio worked out.
RE: By getting their players in a low cap year, they are avoiding the  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/2/2021 5:42 pm : link
In comment 15206724 Ira said:
Quote:
inflation that should come in '22. When the cap goes higher, contracts will go correspondingly higher.

That's not exactly true. The Giants may have saved slightly on AAV by buying during a down year for the cap, but they're taking the savings this year for every single one of those contracts. The implied inflation of an increasing cap is already baked into every one of those contracts, in some cases, to a dramatic extent.

That doesn't make the contracts bad per se, but the Giants didn't really gain any future bargains by signing players this year when the market was deflated. If you look at this year's signings with year one removed, those future cap hits are probably going to look exactly like what a 2022 FA's AAV is going to be.
Except  
Bill2 : 4/2/2021 5:52 pm : link
Years where the cap increases means:

fewer otherwise desirable FA reach FA?

The market setting cases ( granted over buys) are able to be quite high relative to the current averages?

Immutable laws of the Dutch Tulip market mentality that overtakes 22 of 32 owners each year??
Should be  
Bill2 : 4/2/2021 5:54 pm : link
Inevitable outcomes of the Dutch Tulip market mentality
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: well then I'll ask the audience  
GiantsFan84 : 4/2/2021 6:12 pm : link
In comment 15207221 broadbandz said:
Quote:
In comment 15207141 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:


In comment 15207129 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


In comment 15207075 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:


In comment 15207067 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...



i've said on this and other threads what i would have done. i would have accepted that the team is rebuilding and it would take another couple seasons of gradual improvement primarily through the draft. i would have wrote jones off as a bad pick and worked on improving the remaining part of the roster with the draft. i would have already extended peppers.



LOL. So, you would extend Peppers based on one year but written off Jones as a failed pick? I'm really fucking glad you aren't making the moves.




how'd not extending williams work out? i'd either extend peppers (my preference) or trade him

and yes about jones. i think he stinks



just stop watching the giants for about 5 yrs if you think Jones stinks because thats how long it will take to fix that problem. Glad you're still holding on to that pre-draft narrative on Jones.


why would i stop watching because i think jones stinks? kent graham stunk. dave brown stunk. danny kanell (sorry danny) stunk. there were plenty of bad qbs this team has. i watched them all. every game. just because i think the qb stinks doesn't mean i'm not a fan
...  
christian : 4/2/2021 6:30 pm : link
The one area I’d caution is that the Giants can get out of contracts with little penalty. That’s not true in the aggregate.

2023 is where a lot of decisions land, and if these primary players are cut you have earmarked a lot of money on players not on your roster. Worst case scenarios:

- Williams 7.5M dead money
- Golladay 10.2M dead money
- Ryan 1.5M dead money
- Jackson 4.5M dead money

I imagine the rough design is run this core group, including Jones, Barkley, etc. through 2022, with 2022 being where you expect to deep in the mix.
RE: Jones stinking  
broadbandz : 4/2/2021 6:33 pm : link
In comment 15207234 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Is a pre-draft (read Sy's scouting report) and post-draft (performance speaks for itself) narrative.


every single qb expert said Jones had a good last yr. Every single one. Not some fan looking up TD numbers.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 4/2/2021 6:41 pm : link
Re. Jones, whatever. It's time to put up or shut up this fall. No more excuses.
RE: RE: Jones stinking  
Producer : 4/2/2021 6:59 pm : link
In comment 15207452 broadbandz said:
Quote:
In comment 15207234 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Is a pre-draft (read Sy's scouting report) and post-draft (performance speaks for itself) narrative.



every single qb expert said Jones had a good last yr. Every single one. Not some fan looking up TD numbers.


sure keep telling yourself this.. but it is not reality.

There is a lot of doubt around the league about Jones. Appropriately so. And there are no QB experts that think Jones is close to a finished product. It is true many do see potential. Heading into Year 3 it is time to convert potential into stardom or it will be time to move on from this kid.

RE: Except  
Zeke's Alibi : 4/2/2021 7:18 pm : link
In comment 15207412 Bill2 said:
Quote:
Years where the cap increases means:

fewer otherwise desirable FA reach FA?

The market setting cases ( granted over buys) are able to be quite high relative to the current averages?

Immutable laws of the Dutch Tulip market mentality that overtakes 22 of 32 owners each year??


Bingo. Which is why it isn't wise to invest into the very top end of the FA market with the big exception being this year. Many teams just weren't in the position to spend. I'm glad we recognized this and made it work where we could.

There's a reason Bill dropped the hammer this year in FA spending. Competition was much lower than a usual year. Got lucky that they were just happening to bite the bullet last y ear for the future, but some guys get all the breaks!
RE: RE: Jones stinking  
bw in dc : 4/2/2021 7:25 pm : link
In comment 15207452 broadbandz said:
Quote:
In comment 15207234 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Is a pre-draft (read Sy's scouting report) and post-draft (performance speaks for itself) narrative.



every single qb expert said Jones had a good last yr. Every single one. Not some fan looking up TD numbers.


How do you feel about QBR as a neutral statistical measurement?
RE: RE: RE: Jones stinking  
Bill L : 4/2/2021 8:07 pm : link
In comment 15207508 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15207452 broadbandz said:


Quote:


In comment 15207234 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Is a pre-draft (read Sy's scouting report) and post-draft (performance speaks for itself) narrative.



every single qb expert said Jones had a good last yr. Every single one. Not some fan looking up TD numbers.



How do you feel about QBR as a neutral statistical measurement?

I thought your standard was kiloTDs?
Mara is running everything  
uconngiant : 4/2/2021 8:19 pm : link
I still think he has the last word and why we have gone in the direction they have in the last few years. Not that I trust Gettleman but I have faith right now in Judge until he proves me wrong.
RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
Bernie : 4/3/2021 8:06 am : link
In comment 15206920 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15206899 Bernie said:


Quote:


In comment 15206859 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Because they have let the solid DT walk (proven by the fact that that player went onto have a successful career with the other team) while the free agent the Giants signed is often off of the team in a couple of years.

So the Giants let the good player walk and cut the player they signed.

Look, not to sound like a dick, but I'm pretty confident I'm on the right side of this argument. If the Giants roster wasn't such a train wreck, we wouldn't be signing all of these free agents. When we started this offseason, this roster wasn't better than when Gettleman got here. You could argue it was worse.



There is no doubt the Giants have drafted poorly and that’s why they are in this mess. But you can deal with the salary cap implications by structuring contracts that don’t bite you 3 years later and by chasing over rated free agents based on need (did anyone really think Solder was that good?) and giving them large signing bonuses that are amortized over 5 yrs.

And as for 2nd round tackles, other than Linval Joseph in 2010, who else has left to go on to have a good career post Giants?



Linval Joseph leaves and they draft Marvin Austin in the 2nd round (not much of a career). So they draft Jonathan Hankins in the 2nd round (went onto become a full-time starter with Colts and Raiders). So they fill his spot with Snacks Harrison. Snacks gets traded and then draft Dexter Lawrence the following offseason (the immediate assumption was he would replace Snacks, but Tomlinson took over the NT position).


Austin stunk, Hankins was not worth the money he received and Snacks turned out to be a bad locker room presence. Just because these players leave, doesn’t not mean you want to keep them. That is the definition of constantly trying to upgrade the roster, regardless of where they were drafted.
They overpaid  
AcesUp : 4/3/2021 9:01 am : link
In the context of this off-season but I don’t see Golladay and Jackson as overpays in a “normal” cap year. That’s about what they would have gotten last year, probably higher. Healthy year this year and a jacked up cap flush with new tv money? They’re getting much more. The Leonard Williams thing has been beaten to death but they painted themselves into that corner and had no choice but to overpay without getting absolutely destroyed by fans and media.
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