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The Athletic: Some NFL execs on the Giants spending

Big Blue '56 : 4/2/2021 9:22 am
I subscribe to the Athletic. Not sure where I can link for entire 32 team assessments.

Quote:

“New England was good,” an evaluator said. “It cost a lot of money, but they had to do something to try to turn it around there. I put the Giants in the same category. They spent too much money relative to what they acquired, but they needed to acquire what they acquired

Some teams operate from a position of strength during free agency. The 2021 Giants were not one of them.

Leonard Williams held the leverage in negotiations as a player the team acquired via trade, helping him land a three-year, $63 million contract to rank behind only Joey Bosa, Myles Garrett and Aaron Donald among defensive linemen. The Giants paid $18 million a year for Kenny Golladay when the next receiver in free agency earned $12.5 million. They paid $13 million a year for cornerback Adoree Jackson, who actually got a raise over what he was earning from Tennessee, the team that cut him.

“What they paid was ridiculous to me, but who they got wasn’t a problem,” an exec said. “They had trouble getting receivers to go there, so the Golladay deal is kind of what happens. I don’t know how they got Adoree Jackson to $13 million. Adoree is talented but has been hurt a lot. Kyle Rudolph can be a good signing because they can go to 12 personnel now and be really good.”

Giants owner John Mara acknowledged the high prices, joking that critics can call the team stupid, but not cheap.

“The Adoree Jackson deal was inexcusable,” an exec said. “And then they went and jeopardized their future cap by converting guys to get all these deals done. The potential for disaster is high.”

The team is betting on Golladay, who missed 11 games last season, and Jackson, who missed 18 games over the past two seasons. Rudolph is 31 and missed four games last season after a five-year run without missing any.

“Going into free agency, the cap was lower and a lot of teams did not have much ammo,” an evaluator said. “The longer you waited, the bigger the bargains were going to be. Adoree Jackson was late in the process. He should have been a bargain, and he wasn’t. That was questionable.”

read this stuff before somewhere, so are  
Giantsfan79 : 4/2/2021 9:26 am : link
the NFL execs reading BBI to form their opinions or are some of you BBI posters actually NFL execs?
I don’t think anything said there  
Metnut : 4/2/2021 9:28 am : link
is unreasonable.
Obviously....not currently employed executive  
George from PA : 4/2/2021 9:30 am : link
Sounds like Mike Lombardi.

WR didn't want to go to Giants...really? Ridiculous

Lets see what players sign for next year....when cap starts to skyrocket
You  
Toth029 : 4/2/2021 9:30 am : link
Aren't getting a young, former 1st rd pick at a bargain.

Garafolo compared it to the Cardinals dropping the 5th yr option on Antrel Rolle. They did it with intentions to bring him back at a reduced price. Giants plucked him and gave him big money. We all know how that ended. Risky? Sure, but every move be it FA or the draft carries a risk.
Don't care if Mara and Tisch  
HomerJones45 : 4/2/2021 9:34 am : link
are eating mac and cheese for the rest of their lives. It's not my money so I could care less if they overpay the world.

Here is the operative phrase ". . .who they got wasn’t a problem." Exactly. I am sure some of these execs are jealous because Mara and Tisch handed the checkbook over to Dave and Joe and these execs had to go shop the discounted items aisle. I am sure some of them now have issues extending their own players after seeing guys with injury issues cash in. And no doubt there are some who don't think the spending was very wise.

Don't care. They got players and these other execs can cry a river when we are in the playoffs.
Yeah,  
section125 : 4/2/2021 9:34 am : link
they were higher on some of those contracts then we would want, but we say that every year, don't we.
people being amazed  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2021 9:39 am : link
at the money Jackson got is hilarious to me. His contract makes him the 15th highest paid CB in the NFL.
Games are won  
JB_in_DC : 4/2/2021 9:39 am : link
on the field, not on the balance sheet.

Ultimately, the QB is a massive advantage financially for the next couple years, and they need to take advantage of that window.

A related point I've seen noted is that Kraft played the key role in new NFL media deal negotiations, and likely has as good a sense as any owner in future cap value. And he of course spent a boatload this offseason like the Giants, perhaps seeing it as an opportunity before the new deal kicked in.
The other NFL executives are just jealous  
Jimmy Googs : 4/2/2021 9:40 am : link
of the success this current regime has had...
It matters if it impacts the ability to acquire players down the line  
Sean : 4/2/2021 9:40 am : link
Let’s hope the cap goes up and this signings hit.
RE: people being amazed  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/2/2021 9:42 am : link
In comment 15206631 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
at the money Jackson got is hilarious to me. His contract makes him the 15th highest paid CB in the NFL.


I thought that point would be acknowledged by a NFL exec. His salary isn't prohibitive.

On top of that, the way the contracts are structured, we could reasonably move on from most of these guys after a couple of years if needed. And the cap is expected to rise significantly.
they rolled the dice on injury risk but I don't see how they overpaid  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 9:43 am : link
Jackson is the 12/13th highest paid CB now. Less than but similar to what they paid for Bradberry last year, who wasn't exactly considered to be an elite player at the time. A lot less then Byron Jones was paid last year. It's always risky to sign a player after missing a season but the price tag here doesn't seem crazy if he's what they think he is.

Golladay is a little bit on the higher end of the WR landscape but he still got 12m less guaranteed than Amari Cooper did last year and 2m less per year. He got a similar deal to what Stephon Diggs ($72m) received. And Robert Woods ($65m). 2 years ago Brandon Cooks got $81 with $50m in guarantees. Again there's injury risk with Golladay but I don't think there's much question about what he brings on the field and $28m guaranteed is not excessive.

And it is objectively false that he's being paid like a top receiver. Hopkins' $27.25m AAV is almost $10m more per year. Julio Jones is at $22m. When Tyreek Hill hits UFA in a couple years he will easily exceed $20m/year if he keeps playing well. Davante Adams is likely to extend at some point over the next 12 months and I'd guess he tops Hopkins.
RE: people being amazed  
Toth029 : 4/2/2021 9:43 am : link
In comment 15206631 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
at the money Jackson got is hilarious to me. His contract makes him the 15th highest paid CB in the NFL.


Washington gave William Jackson III more money. Is he some uncovered stud stuck in Cincinnati? No, he's a good player and he's also already 28. Adoree is 25. Who got the better value there? Let's ask the exec...
I'll say it again and Mara has corroborated my point in his PC  
Jim in Forest Hills : 4/2/2021 9:44 am : link
Giants didn't bargain shop because they believe they are going to make a huge playoff push this year. They believe in Daniel Jones, think they can win the division and make noise in the playoffs.
NYG are paying  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2021 9:47 am : link
for talent with the thinking that our coaching staff can get the best out of them
Will these same Execs be the ones who will say that....  
No Where Man : 4/2/2021 9:48 am : link
the Giants did a good job in 2021 when the Salary Cap significantly rises over the next few years, and these deals look like bargains?
Maybe it all comes down to this  
M.S. : 4/2/2021 9:48 am : link

If these FA signings improve the Giants significantly, then no one is gonna criticize these figures all that much.

And if these FA signings amount to nothing at all, well then, release the hounds.
What is unreasonable is looking at the average annual value  
robbieballs2003 : 4/2/2021 9:49 am : link
and not how the contracts are structured. If these players don't perform then the Giants can move on fairly easily because of the low percentage of signing bonuses.

Also, can we stop with the Golladay contract being compared to one year deals. If the Giants offer him lets say $14 mil per year then he laughs, moves on, and takes the best one year deal to get to FA next year with a larger cap hit.

What this article also seems to miss is this is like buying expensive houses prior to the pandemic. Nobody is looking at someone who bought an expensive house in 2019 and saying 8t wasn't worth it now. Everyone and their mother knows this cap is going to significantly increase so the time to buy was this year.

I have been adamant how the Giants completely mishandled the Leonard Williams situation and I wasn't even mad at the initial trade. I wouldn't have done that but I understood the thought process. What I didn't agree with was tagging him last year. At the best they should have either given him the TT or the non-exclusive tag and let him shop himself around. Tagging him gave him a floor to negotiate from. Tagging him a second time made that floor higher. I wouldn't have done that but it is done and Leonard Williams is a great player and teammate so it is time to move on.

They did not fuck up their cap for the future. They won't be big spenders in the future but they aren't crippled by it either. And, as the article says, the Giants weren't in a position of strength. If this FA period pays off then in the future they will be negotiating from a position of strength giving them the ability to be patient and get deals to fill in the cracks. The key is drafting well. We were bad for so long that some of these moves were necessary to help fast track us to a better team while not destroying our future cap.
The worst scenario BS  
stoneman : 4/2/2021 9:49 am : link
Yea, if they all get injured again, all at the same time, and a meteor hits the building, then we're screwed. Otherwise, going from a 2 and 6 win team to playoff caliber team, money well spent. It really doesn't matter if you pay Mahomes 1/2 the total cap or overpay 3 guys. Just win baby :)
RE: RE: people being amazed  
eric2425ny : 4/2/2021 9:49 am : link
In comment 15206638 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15206631 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


at the money Jackson got is hilarious to me. His contract makes him the 15th highest paid CB in the NFL.



I thought that point would be acknowledged by a NFL exec. His salary isn't prohibitive.

On top of that, the way the contracts are structured, we could reasonably move on from most of these guys after a couple of years if needed. And the cap is expected to rise significantly.


Exactly, the longest deal we have out was 4 years to Golladay and I believe we have an out after year 3 if it doesn’t work out. It’s not like we signed these players to 5 or 6 year contracts.
What they  
MotownGIANTS : 4/2/2021 9:51 am : link
fail to realize\mention all the contracts relative to the normal trending of the cap makes them fairly good deals and have easy exits if things go south. Also they are young up and comers not peaked vets approaching their respective downsides. Maybe you can out Kyle R in the vet on the decline bucket, however be fair in the asssessment of his contract and it is not a cap killer. We have flexibility going into the draft with young FA with upside but yes with injury concerns not play.


The off-season has been a shocker but definetly a positive surprise. That is how I see ... as they say "scared money don't win."
I agree about Jackson  
islander1 : 4/2/2021 9:53 am : link
he's not the 15th best corner in the league. His own team didn't want to pay him 10.

The rest, would look as bad as the exec said if not for the fact the cap will go up quite a bit. It's calculated, but I've seen this franchise make worse financial decisions.
it is strange to me  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2021 9:53 am : link
that media and fans seem to love it when teams get a nice haul on free agency. When the Giants do it, the narrative always seems to be "overpay???"
The difference  
Daniel in MI : 4/2/2021 9:53 am : link
Is the Giants wanted to go longer term, not 1 year deals. Why would a player with more than 1 suiter sign a multi-year deal here when they know the cap will go up? They could sign a 1 year deal elsewhere and go again next year. That’s the gamble. If you go 1 yr deal on Golladay, for example, and he’s terrific, what’s he gonna cost next year? You’re back in a LW situation.

The Giants wanted to find guys they liked, and lock them down. All players have injury risk. Some of these guys will miss time. That’s the NFL. But if they mostly stay mostly healthy, we got better. We needed to do that badly. These guys are proven NFL players, not “hope they develop” draft picks.
i get it on the premise of  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2021 9:54 am : link
"yeah...if these DON'T work out, that's a huge disaster"

But, isn't that basically always the case?
The other thing that has to be  
eric2425ny : 4/2/2021 9:55 am : link
considered is that from a cap perspective we had more ability to spend as we have a QB on a rookie deal who we control affordably by QB standards for the next two years plus a 5th year option.

If you look across the roster the only mainstay that is up for a new contract next year is Peppers, who I feel will not ask for a fortune to stay here as he seems happy to be a Giant given the recruiting he has been doing. I’m sure he’ll get paid but I see him possibly being extended this offseason or during the season.

We have a lot of young players on cost controlled contracts for the next few years is my point overall. That gives you the flexibility to overspend a little to fill in the gaps.
those  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 9:55 am : link
brushing off the risk the Giants are taking are the same people who are left wondering why the team is in a constant rebuilding mode. There is substantial risk here, and that's all the execs are pointing out.

The Giants spent $170 million on three players this offseason. If any of those three have to be cut, or get injured, we have a huge cap hit that will prevent the team from keeping its own players (see Tomlinson as the latest example).

The counter-argument has always been, "What choice did the Giants have?!"

The did have a choice. They could have chosen not to give huge contracts to Olivier Vernon, Nate Solder, etc., bit the bullet, acquired draft picks (including comp picks), and rebuilt through the draft and cheap free agents.

The Giants are obviously all-in for the upcoming season. The division isn't very good and they know it. But if you look at the schedule, it's a bitch. We play both Super Bowl teams. If the Giants are 10-6, then the fans will be happy. But if this team is 6-10 again?
...  
christian : 4/2/2021 9:55 am : link
When Jackson can stay on the field he's been a really solid corner. The guy had an absolute dynamite rookie season, and really solid season 2nd season.

The question with him is durability and suiting up. If he's healthy he's a high quality corner and a huge upgrade from what they had.
also  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 9:56 am : link
look at how the base salaries of some of these players escalate...



New York Giants Player Salaries - ( New Window )
Eric  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2021 9:57 am : link
you've been beating that drum but c'mon man, you know very well that you absolutely cannot just rely on the draft. Even the best GMs have bad years and have to spend money in free agency.
But..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/2/2021 9:58 am : link
the Giants didn't spend $170M.

The only part that matters is the guaranteed dollars and the cap hits associated with them spread out over the length.
you've also been very vocal  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2021 9:58 am : link
about the Giants needing to improve their talent. They very much did so this offseason without going crazy in # of years for any of these players.

If the Giants did nothing - I imagine you would have said "well - now we are only relying on Gettleman to find good players in the draft, and his draft record has been below average" or something to that effect.

There has to be some type of balance.
RE: those  
eric2425ny : 4/2/2021 9:59 am : link
In comment 15206669 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
brushing off the risk the Giants are taking are the same people who are left wondering why the team is in a constant rebuilding mode. There is substantial risk here, and that's all the execs are pointing out.

The Giants spent $170 million on three players this offseason. If any of those three have to be cut, or get injured, we have a huge cap hit that will prevent the team from keeping its own players (see Tomlinson as the latest example).

The counter-argument has always been, "What choice did the Giants have?!"

The did have a choice. They could have chosen not to give huge contracts to Olivier Vernon, Nate Solder, etc., bit the bullet, acquired draft picks (including comp picks), and rebuilt through the draft and cheap free agents.

The Giants are obviously all-in for the upcoming season. The division isn't very good and they know it. But if you look at the schedule, it's a bitch. We play both Super Bowl teams. If the Giants are 10-6, then the fans will be happy. But if this team is 6-10 again?


I agree there is risk Eric, but the signings this season seemed a lot more targeted than Reese’s splurge on Vernon, Jenkins, and Snacks. Golladay has been a more established player and fits a need we have had for years which is a tall receiver who can make contested catches and he is still young. Jackson is only 25 and is a perfect complement to Bradberry. There are also connections between him and Logan Ryan and Peppers which should bring some continuity to the team. The rest of the signings are mostly low cost low risk 1-2 year deals.
if Jones  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2021 9:59 am : link
turns out to be the guy we want him to be, great. We don't have to pay him until 2024.
i read all winter  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2021 10:00 am : link
that the Giants were stupid for not adapting to the "QB on a rookie deal" model. Well, they appear to be doing that.
So the comments made by these other NFL Executives  
Jimmy Googs : 4/2/2021 10:01 am : link
are wrong and unfairly stated?

The Giants nailed free agency with the players and the executed contracts and these other executives are just missing it?

this is the quote that captures my concern  
japanhead : 4/2/2021 10:04 am : link
"The team is betting on Golladay, who missed 11 games last season, and Jackson, who missed 18 games over the past two seasons. Rudolph is 31 and missed four games last season after a five-year run without missing any."

i don't think any of their "name" FA signings are a lock to make it through a full season. far from it. so it's not somuch that they overpayed, it's that they overpaid for injury-prone skill position players, on a team already full of injury-prone skill position players (shepard, engram, barkley).
Eh, Whatever  
Bernie : 4/2/2021 10:07 am : link
The Giants have become a favored dumping ground for “Some NFL Executives”. Answer me this, how many of these guys have built Super Bowl teams? How many of them sat on their hands wishing they could spend? I hate the $18 million per year for Golliday, but if that makes them a playoff team that competes to get back to the Super Bowl, then it was worth it. I agree with John Mara, they may be stupid, but not cheap.
RE: if Jones  
Brown_Hornet : 4/2/2021 10:07 am : link
In comment 15206678 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
turns out to be the guy we want him to be, great. We don't have to pay him until 2024.
The recent acquisitions have contracts that will have some flexibility by the time Jones is due his big raise.

I'm not trying to wring my hands about something that has a great many unknowns. Cap increase/player development/contract details.

IMV, the other GMs are just a bit jelly.
RE: But..  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 10:07 am : link
In comment 15206674 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the Giants didn't spend $170M.

The only part that matters is the guaranteed dollars and the cap hits associated with them spread out over the length.


Yes and no. The Giants have backloaded a number of contracts to a serious degree. Yes, all teams do this, but look at the base salaries of Bradberry, Martinez, Williams, Golladay, Shepard, Rudolph, Jackson, and Ryan. They explode in coming years. The Giants had to switch salary to bonus money with the contracts of Bradberry and Martinez ONLY after one year just to create room because they have so much dead money. What happens with Jones and Barkley get their second contracts?

Everyone keeps saying the salary cap is going to go way, way up. The Giants had better pray it does. (Many of the other teams are not acting like they are convinced it will.... on average, teams are currently over $14 million under the cap).
there is calculated risk in every move every team makes  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 10:07 am : link
the NYG were 5th in fully guaranteed money given out this offseason with $85m (and I believe more than half of that number is the $45m from Leonard Williams' new extension which isn't a UFA deal).

Significant yes but a far cry from what they did in 2016 when they gave out $106m to free agents who had never put on a jersey here.

The Pats spent on $168m in full guarantees this offseason and I believe almost all of that was for UFAs (not extensions).
They bring up injuries  
Mike in NY : 4/2/2021 10:07 am : link
Hunter Henry has never played 16 games in a season including missing all of 2018. Jonnu Smith has been nicked up as well.
I don't agree with the NE stuff more than anything  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2021 10:10 am : link
I look at how much they spent and who they got and you can easily see that all backfiring. They spent $110m on Hunter Henry, Jonnu Smith and Nelson Agholor - $71m guaranteed.
btw last year the nyg spent $50m guaranteed on Bradberry + Martinez  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 10:11 am : link
add in Logan Ryan and Leonard Williams and they actually spent about the same in fully guaranteed money as this season. That turned out pretty good.

As mentioned earlier the big risk difference I see is on the injury side, not the $ side.
Re: Tomlinson  
Bernie : 4/2/2021 10:16 am : link
He is a run down only player who is being paid $10 million/yr. The Giants replaced him with a run down only player for $1.0 million. Seems shrewd to me.

Would you rather have a run stuffer or athletic CB? That’s rhetorical in today’s NFL.

And escalating salaries are irrelevant. That structure is preferable to bonuses. If they player does not perform, he is cut with limited dead money. Fine by me.
RE: So the comments made by these other NFL Executives  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2021 10:17 am : link
In comment 15206682 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
are wrong and unfairly stated?

The Giants nailed free agency with the players and the executed contracts and these other executives are just missing it?


I don't think they are missing it, but id be curious to know which Execs it is so we can all look at their resumes.

What they say is fair but atleast from what's posted here, none address that the cap will go back up and these can technically all be discount contracts as soon as 2022.

Should NFL executives provide that level of detail in their analysis?
The  
Bill2 : 4/2/2021 10:17 am : link
Object is not to win accidentally while having the least risk.

The object is to win. You don't get a field goal multiplier for being the team with the least risk.

It's a sport.

"Wtf is Tyree doing in there?"

Perfect example of critique by complaining about risk.

" Just make sure they have to throw it to Manningham "

Some of us have gotten so used to complaining we complain "something could go wrong" as if that truth is useful analysis.

It's also true that if you get out of bed and get hit by lightning walking to your car in the driveway...its on you for taking that risk. Anyone live that way? Then why obssess about the risks needed to win in a sport?

Hell, NE took hell of a risk on one QB for 10 years or more. The risk of severe injury and not winning again against 31 other teams only goes up. Why pay a dime for that? Something could go wrong.

Why station three carriers north of Midway? Something could go wrong.

Why ride a bicycle? Something could go wrong.

Why enter the event Mr Phelps? You could drown.
RE: Re: Tomlinson  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 10:18 am : link
In comment 15206700 Bernie said:
Quote:
He is a run down only player who is being paid $10 million/yr. The Giants replaced him with a run down only player for $1.0 million. Seems shrewd to me.

Would you rather have a run stuffer or athletic CB? That’s rhetorical in today’s NFL.

And escalating salaries are irrelevant. That structure is preferable to bonuses. If they player does not perform, he is cut with limited dead money. Fine by me.


The "irrelevant" argument has been made by BBIers for the past 10 years. The results seem to suggest it may be relevant after all.

A significant chunk of this team's salary cap is being taken up by players who are no longer on the roster. Again.
.  
Bill2 : 4/2/2021 10:22 am : link
Let's win the no risk way.

No draft choices and no contracts. We keep the money.

After all, we would lose 17 games at the most but we would have spent nothing.

The above it true. Is it insightful?
RE: The  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 10:25 am : link
In comment 15206702 Bill2 said:
Quote:
Object is not to win accidentally while having the least risk.

The object is to win. You don't get a field goal multiplier for being the team with the least risk.

It's a sport.

"Wtf is Tyree doing in there?"

Perfect example of critique by complaining about risk.

" Just make sure they have to throw it to Manningham "

Some of us have gotten so used to complaining we complain "something could go wrong" as if that truth is useful analysis.

It's also true that if you get out of bed and get hit by lightning walking to your car in the driveway...its on you for taking that risk. Anyone live that way? Then why obssess about the risks needed to win in a sport?

Hell, NE took hell of a risk on one QB for 10 years or more. The risk of severe injury and not winning again against 31 other teams only goes up. Why pay a dime for that? Something could go wrong.

Why station three carriers north of Midway? Something could go wrong.

Why ride a bicycle? Something could go wrong.

Why enter the event Mr Phelps? You could drown.


Also if we accept the premise that WR was the teams #1 need pre-KG to the point that the first round pick "almost had to be" a WR, a rookie WR would have come with just as many if not more risks. The risk calculation goes both ways - a risk taken on was a different risk hedged.
RE: RE: Re: Tomlinson  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2021 10:25 am : link
In comment 15206704 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:

A significant chunk of this team's salary cap is being taken up by players who are no longer on the roster. Again.

What?

Who besides Tate and Zeitler? Their combined dead cap hit is 3% of our salary cap. That's "a significant chunk?" C'mon Eric.
RE: RE: Re: Tomlinson  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2021 10:26 am : link
In comment 15206704 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15206700 Bernie said:


Quote:


He is a run down only player who is being paid $10 million/yr. The Giants replaced him with a run down only player for $1.0 million. Seems shrewd to me.

Would you rather have a run stuffer or athletic CB? That’s rhetorical in today’s NFL.

And escalating salaries are irrelevant. That structure is preferable to bonuses. If they player does not perform, he is cut with limited dead money. Fine by me.



The "irrelevant" argument has been made by BBIers for the past 10 years. The results seem to suggest it may be relevant after all.

A significant chunk of this team's salary cap is being taken up by players who are no longer on the roster. Again.


And you deal with it, hopefully learn from it, and move on. Not making moves out of fear for repeating past mistakes will get us no where. Flush with cash maybe, but we'd face the same questions next year - "is this a mistake to spend on X player" only this time it will be for even more money with the cap rising.
I forgot Baker  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2021 10:27 am : link
for 2.8M. Sorry, so that brings it up to about 4.5% of our overall cap. Not a significant chunk of money in any scenario.
FA is always a gamble  
eric2425ny : 4/2/2021 10:28 am : link
sometimes it works great (eg. 2005) and sometimes it blows up in your face (eg. 2016). Ideally you build through the draft but sometimes you have to make a splash here or there to put you over the edge. When I look at teams like the Packers for example, they never spend a lot in FA but they also rarely get past the divisional round of the playoffs.
By getting their players in a low cap year, they are avoiding the  
Ira : 4/2/2021 10:29 am : link
inflation that should come in '22. When the cap goes higher, contracts will go correspondingly higher.
RE: RE: RE: Re: Tomlinson  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 10:30 am : link
In comment 15206716 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 15206704 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:



A significant chunk of this team's salary cap is being taken up by players who are no longer on the roster. Again.


What?

Who besides Tate and Zeitler? Their combined dead cap hit is 3% of our salary cap. That's "a significant chunk?" C'mon Eric.



We currently have $10,428,507 in dead money against the 2021 salary cap. That's pretty darn significant.
RE: those  
Thegratefulhead : 4/2/2021 10:30 am : link
In comment 15206669 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
brushing off the risk the Giants are taking are the same people who are left wondering why the team is in a constant rebuilding mode. There is substantial risk here, and that's all the execs are pointing out.

The Giants spent $170 million on three players this offseason. If any of those three have to be cut, or get injured, we have a huge cap hit that will prevent the team from keeping its own players (see Tomlinson as the latest example).

The counter-argument has always been, "What choice did the Giants have?!"

The did have a choice. They could have chosen not to give huge contracts to Olivier Vernon, Nate Solder, etc., bit the bullet, acquired draft picks (including comp picks), and rebuilt through the draft and cheap free agents.

The Giants are obviously all-in for the upcoming season. The division isn't very good and they know it. But if you look at the schedule, it's a bitch. We play both Super Bowl teams. If the Giants are 10-6, then the fans will be happy. But if this team is 6-10 again?
We had to find out about Jones this year and we needed to put a team around him. It couldn't be just offense either. You can't play good offense when you are always behind. I understand the risks. I like every single player they signed. Excellent schematic fits. These contract are going to look just fine as the cap rises. None of them are long either. I disagree they were overpays. Jackson may have been injured but he is 25 and can run with Tyreek Hill. Our defense will be able to scheme SOOO much more this year. They can go man and blitz.

I needed them to try. I will say it again. We need a pick up after Covid. Maybe it will miss but aren't you excited for the upcoming season. I do see a reasonable scenario where we are a good team in 2021. 2020 felt dead before it started.
Exactly  
Bill2 : 4/2/2021 10:31 am : link
This is a sport with an Average Career of 4 years, an annual injury rate of 25% and therefore takes 25% more players per year over the 53 fixed roster number. Or about 66 players over a year.

You have 7 draft picks per year on average to field a team fans will accept and advertisers will pay for.

Ok now get it done without taking any risks so we can be really happy in the off season
RE: RE: RE: RE: Re: Tomlinson  
eric2425ny : 4/2/2021 10:32 am : link
In comment 15206725 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15206716 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


In comment 15206704 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:



A significant chunk of this team's salary cap is being taken up by players who are no longer on the roster. Again.


What?

Who besides Tate and Zeitler? Their combined dead cap hit is 3% of our salary cap. That's "a significant chunk?" C'mon Eric.




We currently have $10,428,507 in dead money against the 2021 salary cap. That's pretty darn significant.


I thought I read recently that the average dead cap by team is like 7-8 million so not too much above that. Now a few years ago when we were eating 20M+ on the OBJ deal, that was rough. However, we knew we weren’t competing at that time and the team clearly viewed the draft picks and Peppers being worth eating dead money for a year or 2.
RE: RE: So the comments made by these other NFL Executives  
Jimmy Googs : 4/2/2021 10:32 am : link
In comment 15206701 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15206682 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


are wrong and unfairly stated?

The Giants nailed free agency with the players and the executed contracts and these other executives are just missing it?




I don't think they are missing it, but id be curious to know which Execs it is so we can all look at their resumes.

What they say is fair but atleast from what's posted here, none address that the cap will go back up and these can technically all be discount contracts as soon as 2022.

Should NFL executives provide that level of detail in their analysis?


Their resumes?...just to check to see if they are incompetent NFL executives or figuring out if the have an agenda or reason to badmouth the NY Giants?

These are just comments on how some execs read the NYG deals....they aren't going to give you their detailed analyses. And don't you think these execs have some idea of what they think the cap will do in making the comments they did and suggesting what may be risky.

RE: .  
Brown_Hornet : 4/2/2021 10:33 am : link
In comment 15206708 Bill2 said:
Quote:
Let's win the no risk way.

No draft choices and no contracts. We keep the money.

After all, we would lose 17 games at the most but we would have spent nothing.

The above it true. Is it insightful?
The "Slippery slope," reasoning is the way that 50% of Americans are able to accomplish...nothing.
Risky behavior and Giants seem to go hand in hand these days  
ghost718 : 4/2/2021 10:33 am : link
Used to call Jerry "The Gambler",among other things.Well the Gambler is long gone,but we certainly don't act like it.I think he just bought himself a baseball cap.
Eric  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2021 10:34 am : link
no, that is not significant. Sorry. That is actually a very good number. It would have been 3rd best in the entire league in 2020. C'mon.
RE: those  
Jim in Forest Hills : 4/2/2021 10:35 am : link
In comment 15206669 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:


The Giants are obviously all-in for the upcoming season. The division isn't very good and they know it. But if you look at the schedule, it's a bitch. We play both Super Bowl teams. If the Giants are 10-6, then the fans will be happy. But if this team is 6-10 again?


They are 100% all in! To me as a fan that excites me, Judge is making this move because he sees the path to victory. I like the risk taking here under his vision. Let's go win now.
I think that the idea that the Giants had to pay a premium  
Section331 : 4/2/2021 10:35 am : link
in FA is probably fair, but let's be honest. AJax being paid as a top 15 CB is an overpay. He was good his first 2 years, but never top 15 good. He wouldn't have been the top corner on any decent defense. And then he couldn't stay on the field his last 2 years, and even then, wore out his welcome in Nashville.

He has upside, so I'm not going to complain about it, but there is a bust factor here, much more so than with KG. Signing AJax is in no way similar to signing Bradberry. Bradberry had missed 3 games in 4 years, and while we can quibble if he was considered elite, he without a doubt was a top 10 CB.
RE: Exactly  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 10:36 am : link
In comment 15206729 Bill2 said:
Quote:
This is a sport with an Average Career of 4 years, an annual injury rate of 25% and therefore takes 25% more players per year over the 53 fixed roster number. Or about 66 players over a year.

You have 7 draft picks per year on average to field a team fans will accept and advertisers will pay for.

Ok now get it done without taking any risks so we can be really happy in the off season


Don't be a wise ass.

You guys are asking like it is not fair game to criticize the management of a team that can't get out of the basement of the worst division in football.

You don't get better by paying players who haven't had a whiff of the Pro Bowl like they are All-Stars. Everyone around here said signing Nate Solder to that deal was "great" and "fantastic." "They had to do it!"

Go back through the Free Agency Scorecards I've kept for the last decade and look at how much Reese and Gettleman have spent on which free agents. It's not good.

All of these execs are saying is what is obvious. The Giants can't draft and because of that, they have had to overspend every year in free agency. That's not an inaccurate statement. It's the truth.
http://www.bigblueinteractive.com/free-agency/ - ( New Window )
Another difference between this year and 2016  
eric2425ny : 4/2/2021 10:38 am : link
is that it appears we have a coaching staff that will know what to do with the talent vs. our buddy McAdoo who clearly had zero control of that team based on the boat trip, etc.
Will ask once again...  
Jimmy Googs : 4/2/2021 10:40 am : link
Quote:
So the comments made by these other NFL Executives are wrong and unfairly stated?

The Giants nailed free agency with the players and the executed contracts and these other executives are just missing it?
This all comes down to what the cap is going forward  
AdamBrag : 4/2/2021 10:40 am : link
If the cap goes up by 5-10% per year going forward, these contracts are overpays and very risky.

But if the cap balloons to $220m next year and $250m the year after that, due to the new TV deal, these contracts are reasonable.
Eric  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2021 10:40 am : link
just don't pretend that 10M of dead cap space is significant. It's not, and it's a dumb argument to be honest.
RE: Another difference between this year and 2016  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 10:41 am : link
In comment 15206744 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
is that it appears we have a coaching staff that will know what to do with the talent vs. our buddy McAdoo who clearly had zero control of that team based on the boat trip, etc.


I hope Judge is the right guy too, but Giants fans have embraced this notion that he is the second-coming of Parcells based on another losing season.

The new narrative with Giants fans seems to be, "I don't like Mara. I don't like Gettleman. But I trust Judge and he will fix it!"

Judge still has yet to prove he is the real deal.
RE: RE: Exactly  
Jim in Forest Hills : 4/2/2021 10:41 am : link
In comment 15206741 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15206729 Bill2 said:


Quote:


This is a sport with an Average Career of 4 years, an annual injury rate of 25% and therefore takes 25% more players per year over the 53 fixed roster number. Or about 66 players over a year.

You have 7 draft picks per year on average to field a team fans will accept and advertisers will pay for.

Ok now get it done without taking any risks so we can be really happy in the off season



Don't be a wise ass.

You guys are asking like it is not fair game to criticize the management of a team that can't get out of the basement of the worst division in football.

You don't get better by paying players who haven't had a whiff of the Pro Bowl like they are All-Stars. Everyone around here said signing Nate Solder to that deal was "great" and "fantastic." "They had to do it!"

Go back through the Free Agency Scorecards I've kept for the last decade and look at how much Reese and Gettleman have spent on which free agents. It's not good.

All of these execs are saying is what is obvious. The Giants can't draft and because of that, they have had to overspend every year in free agency. That's not an inaccurate statement. It's the truth. http://www.bigblueinteractive.com/free-agency/ - ( New Window )


What is the debate really? 100% they have not drafted well. Yes they overpaid in FA.

To me it's the fact that they didn't want to bargain shop. They got who they wanted because they are focused on winning this year. Sure it may fail, but we have this coach we believe in. You can't wait too long in the NFL. They believe in the QB. He's in his rookie deal. Time to go.
.  
Bill2 : 4/2/2021 10:42 am : link
There is no response possible but full agreement to a well said insight
RE: RE: Another difference between this year and 2016  
eric2425ny : 4/2/2021 10:43 am : link
In comment 15206751 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15206744 eric2425ny said:


Quote:


is that it appears we have a coaching staff that will know what to do with the talent vs. our buddy McAdoo who clearly had zero control of that team based on the boat trip, etc.



I hope Judge is the right guy too, but Giants fans have embraced this notion that he is the second-coming of Parcells based on another losing season.

The new narrative with Giants fans seems to be, "I don't like Mara. I don't like Gettleman. But I trust Judge and he will fix it!"

Judge still has yet to prove he is the real deal.


I agree in that we need to see more. But the second half of last season putting up a 5-3 record with what we had out there on offense in particular gives me hope that Judge is the right guy. This is a big season for him just as much as it is for the players to prove themselves.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Re: Tomlinson  
Boatie Warrant : 4/2/2021 10:44 am : link
In comment 15206725 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15206716 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


In comment 15206704 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:



A significant chunk of this team's salary cap is being taken up by players who are no longer on the roster. Again.


What?

Who besides Tate and Zeitler? Their combined dead cap hit is 3% of our salary cap. That's "a significant chunk?" C'mon Eric.




We currently have $10,428,507 in dead money against the 2021 salary cap. That's pretty darn significant.


It is also right in the middle of dead cap space for all teams. Right in the middle of all teams league wide. Not good but not that bad either.
RE: RE: RE: Exactly  
Brown_Hornet : 4/2/2021 10:46 am : link
In comment 15206756 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:



What is the debate really? 100% they have not drafted well. Yes they overpaid in FA.

To me it's the fact that they didn't want to bargain shop. They got who they wanted because they are focused on winning this year. Sure it may fail, but we have this coach we believe in. You can't wait too long in the NFL. They believe in the QB. He's in his rookie deal. Time to go.
+1
i just know when everyone is saying you made the right move  
Platos : 4/2/2021 10:47 am : link
its usually the wrong ones.

I wasn't excited when we spent all that money on guys like Vernon in 2016 but everyone said how we were going to be great between the media and friends.
they are 15th in dead money and would be 19th without Baker's dead $  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 10:48 am : link
bad pick sure, but it wasn't a bad contract - it was a standard rookie scale deal. Just unlucky accounting byproduct of fraudulent charges so early in the deal.
I'm afraid I'm also in the Realist Camp on this one  
George : 4/2/2021 10:49 am : link
I like bringing talent on board as much as the next guy, but I've gotten tired of the carousel of mediocre talent we constantly recycle on our roster. We've become addicted to the Crack High of instant gratification that comes with paying big money to players who aren't quite worthy of it on their merits.

In the process, we mortgage our future by tying up Cap dollars that ultimately make it hard to re-sign our players who we know are actually worth it.

I don't want to be annual Off-Season champs - I prefer to let crap organizations like the WTF take those accolades. IMO a year or two of belt tightening and draft pick accumulations makes the most sense.

And, by the way, I'm pretty tired of hearing people say how hard it is to acquire those extra picks by trading down. It happens every single goddamned year - only it's always managed to be done by teams not called the New York Football Giants.
RE: Eric  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 10:49 am : link
In comment 15206750 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
just don't pretend that 10M of dead cap space is significant. It's not, and it's a dumb argument to be honest.


The NFL salary cap is not actually that large when you take into account 53 contracts. So anything above 5 percent is "significant", especially when it is year after year after year:

NYG dead money as a percentage of the cap by year:

2021: 5.6 percent (so far)
2020: 10.8 percent
2019: 28.1 percent
2018: 24.7 percent

So yes, the trend is down, but you can see from 2018 and 2019 that when you screw up in a FA signing, it can crush you like 2018 and 2019.

You are argue 5.6 percent doesn't really matter. It does in that it prevents you from keeping someone like Tomlinson or signing another reasonably priced free agent. It's like interest on debt. It's just wasted money.
Eric  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2021 10:51 am : link
i get that, but you are bringing up 2018 and 2019 as if they have anything to do with the current Giants team. Your argument would totally make sense if it was 2019. It's not.
RE: Obviously....not currently employed executive  
Racer : 4/2/2021 10:51 am : link
In comment 15206622 George from PA said:
Quote:
Sounds like Mike Lombardi.

WR didn't want to go to Giants...really? Ridiculous

Lets see what players sign for next year....when cap starts to skyrocket


While Lombardi is biased against the organization, he doesn't put his sentences together like the quotes portray. Before slickwilly asks how the fuck I know, I listen to ML quite a lot on Shuffle and VSIN.
Eric  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2021 10:52 am : link
the dead cap number did not have any way shape or form effect the Giants ability to resign Dalvin Tomlinson. They could have resigned him, easily actually.

They didn't think he was worth that money, and they found a few guys to replace him at a fraction of that cost.
it might be wasted money  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2021 10:53 am : link
but every single team in the entire league has that problem with dead money. You cannot bat .750 in the draft and free agency, hell it's tough to bat .500. Every team in the league has this issue. This is not a Giants thing.
...  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2021 10:55 am : link
the issue with the team is the QB, the OL, and WRs. It is not our dead money.
RE: Eric  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 10:56 am : link
In comment 15206777 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
i get that, but you are bringing up 2018 and 2019 as if they have anything to do with the current Giants team. Your argument would totally make sense if it was 2019. It's not.


2018 and 2019 happened because the Giants horribly miscalculated on free agents.

The point here by these execs and me is this: "If the Giants have miscalculated again, they are going to be back in the same situation as 2018 and 2019".

Do I think they will? I have no idea. Old Eric would have argued that the Giants are smarter than the other teams and these were great signings.

The Giants no longer receive that kind of trust from me.

They are doing what they did in 2016 this offseason. The argument here seems to be, "2021 is different from 2016 because these players are better fits."

Maybe. Maybe not.

But it's the same strategy. Spend a shit-load of money on 3-4 free agents in one offseason and make a playoff run. The Giants did make the playoffs in 2016. So what?
RE: RE: RE: So the comments made by these other NFL Executives  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2021 10:57 am : link
In comment 15206731 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15206701 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15206682 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


are wrong and unfairly stated?

The Giants nailed free agency with the players and the executed contracts and these other executives are just missing it?




I don't think they are missing it, but id be curious to know which Execs it is so we can all look at their resumes.

What they say is fair but atleast from what's posted here, none address that the cap will go back up and these can technically all be discount contracts as soon as 2022.

Should NFL executives provide that level of detail in their analysis?



Their resumes?...just to check to see if they are incompetent NFL executives or figuring out if the have an agenda or reason to badmouth the NY Giants?

These are just comments on how some execs read the NYG deals....they aren't going to give you their detailed analyses. And don't you think these execs have some idea of what they think the cap will do in making the comments they did and suggesting what may be risky.


No I don't, they seem to be talking about 2021 only which is my point. They are unnamed and I have no idea who they are, so I think being slightly skeptical is reasonable. And I already said their points are fair so there's really no reason for friction. I think the leaguewide cap decrease in 2021 compared to where it will be in 2022 and beyond is a critical piece of information that they didn't discuss (maybe they did but it isn't in the OP).
RE: The  
Racer : 4/2/2021 10:57 am : link
In comment 15206702 Bill2 said:
Quote:
Object is not to win accidentally while having the least risk.

The object is to win. You don't get a field goal multiplier for being the team with the least risk.

It's a sport.

"Wtf is Tyree doing in there?"

Perfect example of critique by complaining about risk.

" Just make sure they have to throw it to Manningham "

Some of us have gotten so used to complaining we complain "something could go wrong" as if that truth is useful analysis.

It's also true that if you get out of bed and get hit by lightning walking to your car in the driveway...its on you for taking that risk. Anyone live that way? Then why obssess about the risks needed to win in a sport?

Hell, NE took hell of a risk on one QB for 10 years or more. The risk of severe injury and not winning again against 31 other teams only goes up. Why pay a dime for that? Something could go wrong.

Why station three carriers north of Midway? Something could go wrong.

Why ride a bicycle? Something could go wrong.

Why enter the event Mr Phelps? You could drown.


Why you're a strong 'follow'. If Garrett can just figure out what 'AF' means.......
While the financials don't always wind up killing you  
JonC : 4/2/2021 10:57 am : link
they often do impact your ability to improve year after year, and it's certainly more evidence of questionably run football operations. I think they made better choices on the UFAs spent on, but the overspending because they're a bad football team still looms large. The executives aren't wrong in this regard.

It's a gamble.
RE: Eric  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 10:58 am : link
In comment 15206780 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
the dead cap number did not have any way shape or form effect the Giants ability to resign Dalvin Tomlinson. They could have resigned him, easily actually.

They didn't think he was worth that money, and they found a few guys to replace him at a fraction of that cost.


That remains to be seen if they "replaced" Tomlinson.

I've heard BBIers in recent years say the Giants smartly let other 2nd-round defensive tackles entering their second contract go. And that was not the case.
RE: RE: Eric  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2021 10:59 am : link
In comment 15206791 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15206780 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


the dead cap number did not have any way shape or form effect the Giants ability to resign Dalvin Tomlinson. They could have resigned him, easily actually.

They didn't think he was worth that money, and they found a few guys to replace him at a fraction of that cost.



That remains to be seen if they "replaced" Tomlinson.

I've heard BBIers in recent years say the Giants smartly let other 2nd-round defensive tackles entering their second contract go. And that was not the case.


Have we not done a good job filling Tomlinsons role, historically? Have we done better with that or finding CB's?
Eric  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2021 11:00 am : link
ok, then it's a trust thing. Not a football business thing.
Eric  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2021 11:01 am : link
and the 2016 spending spree they went on and the subsequent years that followed - was that Dave Gettleman and Joe Judge?
Bill2  
trueblueinpw : 4/2/2021 11:03 am : link
That's so true about our national aversion to risk. Ridiculous and pure speculation.

Look, I kick Getty in the nuts all the time, because he deserves it mostly, but signing a bunch of FA? No, I'm not kicking his balls for that just yet. The offense was putrid. What did anyone expect Jints Central to do? I think the signings were terrific and yes, they could go sideways, but then again, well... see Bill2s post above.

One thing that did catch my eye was the comment that the Giants have had trouble getting receivers to sign. I wonder if there's anything to that - and I wonder why that would be?
UConn4523  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 11:04 am : link
We have had to spend 2nd round picks on DTs to fill vacancies created by letting good DTs walk in free agency when they are about to receive their second contract.

In other words, we've been treading water. We have had to use one of 7 draft picks to replace someone we should have kept and used that pick on another position. It's one of the main reasons why this team never seems to be getting better.
RE: Eric  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 11:07 am : link
In comment 15206796 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
and the 2016 spending spree they went on and the subsequent years that followed - was that Dave Gettleman and Joe Judge?


Is Gettleman an upgrade over Reese? The record doesn't suggest that yet.

I am very hopeful about Judge. I have also fallen victim to the narrative that "Judge is really running things and he knows what to do." But what is that based on other than faith and hope? Right now, he's a 6-10 coach with a special teams background. If he goes 10-6 in 2021, the needle will be pointing up on him. If he is 6-10 again, the honeymoon will be over.
RE: UConn4523  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2021 11:08 am : link
In comment 15206802 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
We have had to spend 2nd round picks on DTs to fill vacancies created by letting good DTs walk in free agency when they are about to receive their second contract.


Again, you are talking about Jerry Reese. And, we drafted Tomlinson in 2017. He wasn't really replacing anyone. Hankins never really panned out. We should have resigned Joseph but that was 2014.
RE: RE: UConn4523  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 11:10 am : link
In comment 15206807 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 15206802 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


We have had to spend 2nd round picks on DTs to fill vacancies created by letting good DTs walk in free agency when they are about to receive their second contract.




Again, you are talking about Jerry Reese. And, we drafted Tomlinson in 2017. He wasn't really replacing anyone. Hankins never really panned out. We should have resigned Joseph but that was 2014.


But Gettleman just did what Reese did. He let up-and-coming 2nd-round DT walk in free agency. Hopefully Shelton can replace him. If he can't, we have another hole to fill. (If we move Dexter over, then we have a hole there).
RE: i just know when everyone is saying you made the right move  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 11:11 am : link
In comment 15206771 Platos said:
Quote:
its usually the wrong ones.

I wasn't excited when we spent all that money on guys like Vernon in 2016 but everyone said how we were going to be great between the media and friends.


And for all the negative downstream consequences they won 11 games and Eli gave them a chance to knock off Rodgers again on his home turf if anyone had bothered to show up with him.

We all play the cards we get, not the cards we want. For the last 5+ years this organization has been playing the cards of a team who had no good homegrown talent worthy of extensions after their 4th + 5th years. 0 players from the '11, '12, '13 drafts got 2nd contracts here so they had cash to burn in those corresponding future offseasons ('15, '16, '17). The '14, '15, '16, '17 drafts weren't much better and on and on the future FA cycle have continued.

When teams don't have players they drafted worth big money the cards they are holding are weaker and basically force them into the FA market because what's the alternative to getting better players and improving? Not trying is essentially Bill's hypothetical above. Within reason, trying is better than folding imo.
It is important to win  
Lines of Scrimmage : 4/2/2021 11:11 am : link
We have a second year coach who while showing lots of promise has not been a winner as of yet. The best way to get players to buy into the system is winning. These signings are all about that imo. In the NFL when you don't win the players stop believing.
Eric  
Samiam : 4/2/2021 11:13 am : link
This place reminds me of the In Reese We Trust. After the 2nd Super Bowl win, regardless of what moves the team made, they were always given the benefit of the doubt. After all, Reese had the 2 rings. Over time, and a crappy team, people began peeling away. I didn’t bail out on Reese until, with a horrible OL in a TE rich draft, he took Engram instead of Ramzyk or Cam Robinson and didn’t address the OL until he took Biz in the 6th round and he stunk. Now, we are reliving this attitude with even less to go on. Except for that 1 playoff year, the Giants have been bad. They are better than they were before Gettleman got here but they’ve had 3 drafts within the top 6. They should be better. With Judge around, they can do no wrong in the eyes of lots here. And, people who question moves are vilified like they’re not fans or just ignorant. I agree with you that this management does not deserve the benefit of the doubt. Where I’m more worried than you, is that I think the OL as currently composed is bad and I cannot imagine it not being upgraded before the season starts. I’m really curious and concerned about how this draft will play out.

yes, he did  
ryanmkeane : 4/2/2021 11:13 am : link
Tomlinson had a good 4 years here. In terms of roster building, I don't think you want to be paying your 3rd best DL 10M+ a year. But, i get it. It sucks to lose him. Clearly they think he can be replaced *somewhat* easily for less money
Those 2016 defensive signings did pan out. They had an elite defense  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/2/2021 11:17 am : link
that dragged a terrible offensive team by the ass to the playoffs.

That team could have had a window to do more if they hadn't completely failed to field a competent offensive line the next year as well.

There IS a parallel to 2021. They have lost their most reliable offensive lineman. They did not apparently improve the offensive line that allowed 45 sacks in 2020. The improvement at this point lies in assumed young player growth, and that's something that gets coaches and GMs fired.

If the OL is what holds the team back again, you might get a similar result as the collapse in 2017.
Actually  
Bill2 : 4/2/2021 11:17 am : link
If you examine closely, the evaluation on Tomlinson was a choice made as early as October of last year.

Remember, this is a DT who had twice injured his knees before being drafted and the coached were all in draft rooms at the time.

We respect when BB cuts early rather than late. Tomlinson being "lost" because we dint have cap room is a charge glibly made but possibly not an accurate assessment of the decision at all. We don't know so it's easy to say but impossible to depend on as a debating point.
ryanmkeane  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 11:18 am : link
In a nutshell, one can argue that the Giants got much better at WR and CB because they spent a ton of $$$. It should have a big impact on the team.

But did the Giants get better or worse at NT and RG?

And as much as we're talking about Golladay and Jackson, it's the other contracts that are also under the spotlight.

Should the Giants have given Logan Ryan a 3-year, $31 million deal?

Should Leonard Williams have received a 3-year, $63 million deal?

I love Kyle Rudolph. If he is healthy, he could have as much of an impact as Golladay on Daniel Jones. But they gave $12 million to a 31-year old TE who had Lisfranc surgery last week.

Devonte Booker got almost $6 million.

My point here is sometimes we focus on the big contracts, but it the money the Giants give a Toilolo as a 3rd string TE that causes problems.

I'm excited about 2021. But the execs are merely pointing out that the Giants had to spend a ton of money (they've added 15 free agents in the last 3 weeks) because of holes all over the roster. That's not good.
RE: RE: Eric  
Bavaro_the_Mafioso : 4/2/2021 11:19 am : link
In comment 15206806 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15206796 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


and the 2016 spending spree they went on and the subsequent years that followed - was that Dave Gettleman and Joe Judge?



Is Gettleman an upgrade over Reese? The record doesn't suggest that yet.

I am very hopeful about Judge. I have also fallen victim to the narrative that "Judge is really running things and he knows what to do." But what is that based on other than faith and hope? Right now, he's a 6-10 coach with a special teams background. If he goes 10-6 in 2021, the needle will be pointing up on him. If he is 6-10 again, the honeymoon will be over.


While I fundamentally agree with this notion, it will continue to be difficult to evaluate any head coach, as long as the drafting and cap management are underwhelming.

It's obvious we cant spend our way out of poor drafting and the truth will come to light(already has IMO). This falls squarely on the GM although many make excuses for DG.
RE: those  
sb from NYT Forum : 4/2/2021 11:22 am : link
In comment 15206669 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
brushing off the risk the Giants are taking are the same people who are left wondering why the team is in a constant rebuilding mode. There is substantial risk here, and that's all the execs are pointing out.

The Giants spent $170 million on three players this offseason. If any of those three have to be cut, or get injured, we have a huge cap hit that will prevent the team from keeping its own players (see Tomlinson as the latest example).

The counter-argument has always been, "What choice did the Giants have?!"

The did have a choice. They could have chosen not to give huge contracts to Olivier Vernon, Nate Solder, etc., bit the bullet, acquired draft picks (including comp picks), and rebuilt through the draft and cheap free agents.

The Giants are obviously all-in for the upcoming season. The division isn't very good and they know it. But if you look at the schedule, it's a bitch. We play both Super Bowl teams. If the Giants are 10-6, then the fans will be happy. But if this team is 6-10 again?


True, but my feeling is that the Giants they are really only at risk for 2022. For example, way the Giants structured the Galloway deal, they can cut him after 2022 with only $10 million. Jackson is similar, he can be cut after 2022 with only $4.5 million dead money. The dead money sucks, but I wouldn't think it's a cap killer like the Solder and Vernon contracts were.

Another consideration is Jones. The Giants need to know if he is a winning starting QB, and soon. They have to decide on exercising his 5th year option after this season. If he can't win in 2021 then at least the Giants will know for certain whether they should continue to invest in him.
RE: Those 2016 defensive signings did pan out. They had an elite defense  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 11:22 am : link
In comment 15206820 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
that dragged a terrible offensive team by the ass to the playoffs.

That team could have had a window to do more if they hadn't completely failed to field a competent offensive line the next year as well.

There IS a parallel to 2021. They have lost their most reliable offensive lineman. They did not apparently improve the offensive line that allowed 45 sacks in 2020. The improvement at this point lies in assumed young player growth, and that's something that gets coaches and GMs fired.

If the OL is what holds the team back again, you might get a similar result as the collapse in 2017.


Yes and no. It's pretty apparent that the coaches quickly soured on Oliver Vernon and Damon Harrison as they were traded. We all had the feeling that Janoris Jenkins wasn't long for the team either and they just simply cut him. In hindsight, there is no way the team makes those moves again.
there seems to be a lot of misrepresentation of blame  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 11:25 am : link
so here's a handy little cheat sheet since the new CBA in 2011. teams have money to burn in FA in years where their draft classes 4-5 years prior tanked (first round picks get the 5th year option) and those players weren't worthy of extensions.

2011 draft = 2015/16 FA
2012 draft = 2016/17 FA
2013 draft = 2017/18 FA
2014 draft = 2018/19 FA
2015 draft = 2019/20 FA
2016 draft = 2020/21 FA
2017 draft = 2021/22 FA

You can almost directly trace the Solder signing in 2018 to Pugh (13) and Richburg (14) hitting UFA that same year and not being worth extensions. Same as you can trace all of the Pats spending this year back to their 2016 + 2017 draft classes which were basically trash other than Thuney (who they elected to not pay).
sb from NYT Forum  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 11:26 am : link
I keep reading the argument on BBI that $10 million, $15 million in dead money doesn't matter. Aside from the fact that this would be an admission of making yet more significant personnel mistakes (i.e., signing the wrong "fix" at a position), losing $15 million of a $180 million cap is an issue. We have less room and the same problem remains.

I know I sound argumentative, but you guys are literally making the same arguments you did five years ago.

All I am saying is let's see the results on the field first before we celebrate like Redskins fans winning the Super Bowl in March.

Getting anywhere near .500 would be a great start.
RE: ryanmkeane  
sb from NYT Forum : 4/2/2021 11:27 am : link
In comment 15206823 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In a nutshell, one can argue that the Giants got much better at WR and CB because they spent a ton of $$$. It should have a big impact on the team.

But did the Giants get better or worse at NT and RG?

And as much as we're talking about Golladay and Jackson, it's the other contracts that are also under the spotlight.

Should the Giants have given Logan Ryan a 3-year, $31 million deal?

Should Leonard Williams have received a 3-year, $63 million deal?

I love Kyle Rudolph. If he is healthy, he could have as much of an impact as Golladay on Daniel Jones. But they gave $12 million to a 31-year old TE who had Lisfranc surgery last week.

Devonte Booker got almost $6 million.

My point here is sometimes we focus on the big contracts, but it the money the Giants give a Toilolo as a 3rd string TE that causes problems.

I'm excited about 2021. But the execs are merely pointing out that the Giants had to spend a ton of money (they've added 15 free agents in the last 3 weeks) because of holes all over the roster. That's not good.


Good points.
I  
AcidTest : 4/2/2021 11:28 am : link
am cautiously optimistic that Williams, Golladay, and Jackson are different than Vernon, Harrison, and Jenkins, but agree with Eric that spending a lot in FA is usually an indication that a team has drafted poorly.

Bradberry and Jackson are good examples of how badly the Giants have drafted. DG has spent a ton of draft picks on CBs, but still had to sign two expensive FAs. He has also drafted only one (Slayton) WR in three drafts, despite having 12 picks last year. And Slayton was a fifth round pick. He overpaid for Williams, but he was at least our own player who was coming off a monster year. He also couldn't lose both Williams and Tomlinson. His mistake was in underestimating how hard it would be to sign Williams.

I would have been fine keeping Tomlinson instead of Williams, and not signing Golladay or Jackson. Eric is right. At some point, we need to commit to building through the draft not FA, even if that means getting new scouts. That is what good teams like the Ravens do, which is why the consistently get comp picks. Their draft picks become FAs that other teams value and sign. Dallas is now also in that category.
RE: RE: Those 2016 defensive signings did pan out. They had an elite defense  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 11:29 am : link
In comment 15206834 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15206820 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


that dragged a terrible offensive team by the ass to the playoffs.

That team could have had a window to do more if they hadn't completely failed to field a competent offensive line the next year as well.

There IS a parallel to 2021. They have lost their most reliable offensive lineman. They did not apparently improve the offensive line that allowed 45 sacks in 2020. The improvement at this point lies in assumed young player growth, and that's something that gets coaches and GMs fired.

If the OL is what holds the team back again, you might get a similar result as the collapse in 2017.



Yes and no. It's pretty apparent that the coaches quickly soured on Oliver Vernon and Damon Harrison as they were traded. We all had the feeling that Janoris Jenkins wasn't long for the team either and they just simply cut him. In hindsight, there is no way the team makes those moves again.


The coaches didn't quickly sour on them, Reese/Ross/McAdoo quickly got fired and the new regime quickly moved on.
RE: UConn4523  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2021 11:29 am : link
In comment 15206802 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
We have had to spend 2nd round picks on DTs to fill vacancies created by letting good DTs walk in free agency when they are about to receive their second contract.

In other words, we've been treading water. We have had to use one of 7 draft picks to replace someone we should have kept and used that pick on another position. It's one of the main reasons why this team never seems to be getting better.


Why is that a bad thing? If we can plug this hole via the draft and keep our cash for harder to fill positions, isn't that ideal?

In a perfect world we aren't dealing with the issues of past players that didn't workout, and their burden to the cap, but since we are to some extent I think i'd rather spend on the harder to fill roles, and use a pick/cheap vet combo to backfill Tomlinsons role.

There's always going to be downside, but the risk here seems pretty minimal.
RE: I  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 11:30 am : link
In comment 15206840 AcidTest said:
Quote:
am cautiously optimistic that Williams, Golladay, and Jackson are different than Vernon, Harrison, and Jenkins, but agree with Eric that spending a lot in FA is usually an indication that a team has drafted poorly.

Bradberry and Jackson are good examples of how badly the Giants have drafted. DG has spent a ton of draft picks on CBs, but still had to sign two expensive FAs. He has also drafted only one (Slayton) WR in three drafts, despite having 12 picks last year. And Slayton was a fifth round pick. He overpaid for Williams, but he was at least our own player who was coming off a monster year. He also couldn't lose both Williams and Tomlinson. His mistake was in underestimating how hard it would be to sign Williams.

I would have been fine keeping Tomlinson instead of Williams, and not signing Golladay or Jackson. Eric is right. At some point, we need to commit to building through the draft not FA, even if that means getting new scouts. That is what good teams like the Ravens do, which is why the consistently get comp picks. Their draft picks become FAs that other teams value and sign. Dallas is now also in that category.


Yup. unless Julian Love pans out, they very recently drafted three defensive backs in one draft with zero impact. That's horrible.

---  
Peppers : 4/2/2021 11:32 am : link
This basically matches what I've heard.

If you draft poorly, you'll need to overcompensate in free agency. The issue with free agency is that these players like Golladay and Jackson don't come without risk and/or "overpaying".

But listen, nobody is killing them for what they did in free agency.. Most understand that this is a team desperately trying to regain their place amongst the best teams in the league. The Giants hold themselves to a high standard. They always have.

What they're getting killed for is their drafting and that falls directly on Dave Gettleman's and Chris Pettit's shoulders.
Eric on Li  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 11:32 am : link
There were all kinds of reports about personality issues with Snacks, Jenkins, and Olivier.
...  
Jimmy Googs : 4/2/2021 11:32 am : link
In comment 15206788 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15206731 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15206701 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 15206682 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


are wrong and unfairly stated?

The Giants nailed free agency with the players and the executed contracts and these other executives are just missing it?




I don't think they are missing it, but id be curious to know which Execs it is so we can all look at their resumes.

What they say is fair but atleast from what's posted here, none address that the cap will go back up and these can technically all be discount contracts as soon as 2022.

Should NFL executives provide that level of detail in their analysis?



Their resumes?...just to check to see if they are incompetent NFL executives or figuring out if the have an agenda or reason to badmouth the NY Giants?

These are just comments on how some execs read the NYG deals....they aren't going to give you their detailed analyses. And don't you think these execs have some idea of what they think the cap will do in making the comments they did and suggesting what may be risky.




No I don't, they seem to be talking about 2021 only which is my point. They are unnamed and I have no idea who they are, so I think being slightly skeptical is reasonable. And I already said their points are fair so there's really no reason for friction. I think the leaguewide cap decrease in 2021 compared to where it will be in 2022 and beyond is a critical piece of information that they didn't discuss (maybe they did but it isn't in the OP).


No friction...just basically saying that if the comments were positive nobody would be asking for resumes. The posters on the thread would be saying "See...other execs know we killed it too!".

And like I said, the comments are from NFL execs so more reasonable to conclude they understand known/unknown cap risks to some extent.
I'm glad they didn't bragan hunt this year.  
Dave in Hoboken : 4/2/2021 11:33 am : link
They've bargain hunted in previous years and it hasn't paid off in the least. You get what you pay for.
The owner is tired of losing.  
Joe Beckwith : 4/2/2021 11:34 am : link
The new HC evaluated the talent, or lack thereof, in his vision for the team. They had to overpay for the talent available, especially for WR that don’t want to come to the NYG; then also is the premium they have to pay for the NY/NJ tax structure vs. a FL. or TX.
Almost all the multi year contracts are structured to be 2 year rental; you gotta believe a WR, DT, CB and likely OL are high on the draft board this year to be able to flip the 1 and multi year players out, specifically the under performers, ASAP.
Look how BB flips his roster. Hopefully we can develop players other teams want so we can get comp or trade picks the same was as BB.
RE: RE: Re: Tomlinson  
Bernie : 4/2/2021 11:35 am : link
In comment 15206704 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15206700 Bernie said:


Quote:


He is a run down only player who is being paid $10 million/yr. The Giants replaced him with a run down only player for $1.0 million. Seems shrewd to me.

Would you rather have a run stuffer or athletic CB? That’s rhetorical in today’s NFL.

And escalating salaries are irrelevant. That structure is preferable to bonuses. If they player does not perform, he is cut with limited dead money. Fine by me.



The "irrelevant" argument has been made by BBIers for the past 10 years. The results seem to suggest it may be relevant after all.

A significant chunk of this team's salary cap is being taken up by players who are no longer on the roster. Again.


It’s not irrelevant when there is dead money from unamortized bonuses. It is when you can walk away from a large salary with no cap implications and that is my point. I would prefer to have larger salaries than big signing or roster bonuses, but historically players and agents have pushed back on these structures. They now appear to be more open to them.
UConn4523  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 11:35 am : link
Because they have let the solid DT walk (proven by the fact that that player went onto have a successful career with the other team) while the free agent the Giants signed is often off of the team in a couple of years.

So the Giants let the good player walk and cut the player they signed.

Look, not to sound like a dick, but I'm pretty confident I'm on the right side of this argument. If the Giants roster wasn't such a train wreck, we wouldn't be signing all of these free agents. When we started this offseason, this roster wasn't better than when Gettleman got here. You could argue it was worse.
RE: RE: I  
AcidTest : 4/2/2021 11:36 am : link
In comment 15206844 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15206840 AcidTest said:


Quote:


am cautiously optimistic that Williams, Golladay, and Jackson are different than Vernon, Harrison, and Jenkins, but agree with Eric that spending a lot in FA is usually an indication that a team has drafted poorly.

Bradberry and Jackson are good examples of how badly the Giants have drafted. DG has spent a ton of draft picks on CBs, but still had to sign two expensive FAs. He has also drafted only one (Slayton) WR in three drafts, despite having 12 picks last year. And Slayton was a fifth round pick. He overpaid for Williams, but he was at least our own player who was coming off a monster year. He also couldn't lose both Williams and Tomlinson. His mistake was in underestimating how hard it would be to sign Williams.

I would have been fine keeping Tomlinson instead of Williams, and not signing Golladay or Jackson. Eric is right. At some point, we need to commit to building through the draft not FA, even if that means getting new scouts. That is what good teams like the Ravens do, which is why the consistently get comp picks. Their draft picks become FAs that other teams value and sign. Dallas is now also in that category.



Yup. unless Julian Love pans out, they very recently drafted three defensive backs in one draft with zero impact. That's horrible.


DG CB picks:

Baker: 1,4,5.
Beal: 3.
Love: 4.
Holmes: 4.
Ballentine: 6.
Yiadom: 7 (trade).
RE: Eric on Li  
JonC : 4/2/2021 11:36 am : link
In comment 15206851 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
There were all kinds of reports about personality issues with Snacks, Jenkins, and Olivier.


Correct, before they signed and while they were Giants. Snacks and Jenkins, in particular.
RE: Eric on Li  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 11:37 am : link
In comment 15206851 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
There were all kinds of reports about personality issues with Snacks, Jenkins, and Olivier.


In 2016 they were applauded (rightfully so). All 3 were borderline all pro.

2017 started out with SB expectations, they started 0-5 with OBJ breaking his leg, and everyone got fired before the season ended after the Eli debacle. Spagnuolo was the head coach for the last 4 games.

So when in that timeline exactly do you think Ben McAdoo and Jerry Reese soured on those guys?
RE: The owner is tired of losing.  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 11:38 am : link
In comment 15206857 Joe Beckwith said:
Quote:
The new HC evaluated the talent, or lack thereof, in his vision for the team. They had to overpay for the talent available, especially for WR that don’t want to come to the NYG; then also is the premium they have to pay for the NY/NJ tax structure vs. a FL. or TX.
Almost all the multi year contracts are structured to be 2 year rental; you gotta believe a WR, DT, CB and likely OL are high on the draft board this year to be able to flip the 1 and multi year players out, specifically the under performers, ASAP.
Look how BB flips his roster. Hopefully we can develop players other teams want so we can get comp or trade picks the same was as BB.


His father was tired of losing too in the 1970s.

Wellington later admitted (loudly and often) that they made a mistake to stop building through the draft but through trades. He wanted instant improvement instead of doing it the old-fashioned way. Wellington said, "If I had to do it all over again, I would have built through the draft."

John may be going through the same learning process.
RE: UConn4523  
AcidTest : 4/2/2021 11:39 am : link
In comment 15206859 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Because they have let the solid DT walk (proven by the fact that that player went onto have a successful career with the other team) while the free agent the Giants signed is often off of the team in a couple of years.

So the Giants let the good player walk and cut the player they signed.

Look, not to sound like a dick, but I'm pretty confident I'm on the right side of this argument. If the Giants roster wasn't such a train wreck, we wouldn't be signing all of these free agents. When we started this offseason, this roster wasn't better than when Gettleman got here. You could argue it was worse.


And it wouldn't be a train wreck if we drafted better. We do appear to have had a better draft last year, perhaps because of Judge.
RE: sb from NYT Forum  
sb from NYT Forum : 4/2/2021 11:39 am : link
In comment 15206837 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I keep reading the argument on BBI that $10 million, $15 million in dead money doesn't matter. Aside from the fact that this would be an admission of making yet more significant personnel mistakes (i.e., signing the wrong "fix" at a position), losing $15 million of a $180 million cap is an issue. We have less room and the same problem remains.

I know I sound argumentative, but you guys are literally making the same arguments you did five years ago.

All I am saying is let's see the results on the field first before we celebrate like Redskins fans winning the Super Bowl in March.

Getting anywhere near .500 would be a great start.


Yeah, I think my view is coming from the expectation that the 2022 cap will be much higher than $180 million, so $15 million dead will be a lower percentage of the cap. Maybe I am being naive though.

I am no DG fan, but I actually think they structured these new deals well, and I like that they are short. They feel different to me from 2016's "swing for the fences, risks be damned" gambles (partcularly Vernon, but also Harrison (5 years for a 28yo DT) and Jenkins (who was very up and down for the Rams before coming to the Giants).
RE: RE: Eric on Li  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 11:40 am : link
In comment 15206864 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 15206851 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


There were all kinds of reports about personality issues with Snacks, Jenkins, and Olivier.



Correct, before they signed and while they were Giants. Snacks and Jenkins, in particular.


There is a difference between rumors (talk) and what the organization actually believes/does (actions). I don't recall the regime that signed those players had any problems with them while they were here. The problems began surfacing with the new regime as they were trying to change the culture.
Better hope  
Giant John : 4/2/2021 11:45 am : link
There is a big jump in salary cap coming.
Eric on Li  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 11:45 am : link
Yup.

What I left unsaid is it just doesn't matter what Golladay and Jackson do in 2021, but what they do in 2022, 2023, and hopefully beyond.

We received immediate satisfaction from those free agents. After the 2016 season was over, despite the bad playoff loss, we were all thrilled with all three players.

BBI was pretty happy when Vernon was traded. Damon was a surprise, but then there were a bunch of media reports about locker room issues (and BBI posters started saying, "I knew there was a problem when he said he didn't want to be considered a team leader!"). Most of BBI was content with Jenkins being waived. (There seemed to be a sense that it was a matter of time before he was gone).

So you are asking when did management go south on these players? Same time that fans did.

Remember, Golladay and Jackson apparently had "baggage" too. Everyone in the media said the Giants needed to meet with him to see if he was a good fit (reminiscent of Plaxico too). Then there was all the suggested stuff on why Jackson was cut (for Jenkins ironically).

Would it be a complete shock in two years if Golladay is cut after being suspended by Judge a couple of times?
RE: RE: RE: Eric on Li  
JonC : 4/2/2021 11:45 am : link
In comment 15206874 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15206864 JonC said:


Quote:


In comment 15206851 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


There were all kinds of reports about personality issues with Snacks, Jenkins, and Olivier.



Correct, before they signed and while they were Giants. Snacks and Jenkins, in particular.



There is a difference between rumors (talk) and what the organization actually believes/does (actions). I don't recall the regime that signed those players had any problems with them while they were here. The problems began surfacing with the new regime as they were trying to change the culture.


I can tell you what I'm saying is accurate and it wasn't rumors, but need to leave it there. Suffice to say not everything gets printed in the media, there's always more info in the background. They did choose to sign them anyway, but old habits returned and out the door they finally went after DG's due diligence determined who were not part of the solution.
Eric  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2021 11:47 am : link
our coaching staff bears a lot of that blame. If Judge was the coach in 2016 do you think half the stuff with that FA class, Beckham, etc still happen?

You either think Judge is different or you don't. Sure he still has a ton to prove but if you aren't more comfortable with him coaching big ticket FA over McAdoo/Shurmur than I don't know what else to say on it.

IMO Judge mitigates some of the risk, and his staff (particularly on defense) should be able to get more out of these players than in years past.
RE: Eric  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/2/2021 11:53 am : link
In comment 15206886 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
our coaching staff bears a lot of that blame. If Judge was the coach in 2016 do you think half the stuff with that FA class, Beckham, etc still happen?

You either think Judge is different or you don't. Sure he still has a ton to prove but if you aren't more comfortable with him coaching big ticket FA over McAdoo/Shurmur than I don't know what else to say on it.

IMO Judge mitigates some of the risk, and his staff (particularly on defense) should be able to get more out of these players than in years past.


I like Judge, but nobody has a crystal ball here. We all liked the direction of the team after the 2016 season as well. Nobody had doubts if McAdoo could coach veterans post-2016 either. It was only once things broke down in a way nobody saw coming that the leaks in the boat showed.
RE: RE: RE: I  
Jimmy Googs : 4/2/2021 11:54 am : link
In comment 15206863 AcidTest said:
Quote:
In comment 15206844 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


In comment 15206840 AcidTest said:


Quote:


am cautiously optimistic that Williams, Golladay, and Jackson are different than Vernon, Harrison, and Jenkins, but agree with Eric that spending a lot in FA is usually an indication that a team has drafted poorly.

Bradberry and Jackson are good examples of how badly the Giants have drafted. DG has spent a ton of draft picks on CBs, but still had to sign two expensive FAs. He has also drafted only one (Slayton) WR in three drafts, despite having 12 picks last year. And Slayton was a fifth round pick. He overpaid for Williams, but he was at least our own player who was coming off a monster year. He also couldn't lose both Williams and Tomlinson. His mistake was in underestimating how hard it would be to sign Williams.

I would have been fine keeping Tomlinson instead of Williams, and not signing Golladay or Jackson. Eric is right. At some point, we need to commit to building through the draft not FA, even if that means getting new scouts. That is what good teams like the Ravens do, which is why the consistently get comp picks. Their draft picks become FAs that other teams value and sign. Dallas is now also in that category.



Yup. unless Julian Love pans out, they very recently drafted three defensive backs in one draft with zero impact. That's horrible.




DG CB picks:

Baker: 1,4,5.
Beal: 3.
Love: 4.
Holmes: 4.
Ballentine: 6.
Yiadom: 7 (trade).


That should be a 2, 4, and 5 for Baker.

But yes, the sentiment is correct. Basically and entire draft in 2019 spent on CBs and we only have a backup in Love to show for it.

And a hefty price tag for Bradberry and now Jackson to "re-do" what all those draft picks were supposed to do.
RE: UConn4523  
Bernie : 4/2/2021 11:54 am : link
In comment 15206859 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Because they have let the solid DT walk (proven by the fact that that player went onto have a successful career with the other team) while the free agent the Giants signed is often off of the team in a couple of years.

So the Giants let the good player walk and cut the player they signed.

Look, not to sound like a dick, but I'm pretty confident I'm on the right side of this argument. If the Giants roster wasn't such a train wreck, we wouldn't be signing all of these free agents. When we started this offseason, this roster wasn't better than when Gettleman got here. You could argue it was worse.


There is no doubt the Giants have drafted poorly and that’s why they are in this mess. But you can deal with the salary cap implications by structuring contracts that don’t bite you 3 years later and by chasing over rated free agents based on need (did anyone really think Solder was that good?) and giving them large signing bonuses that are amortized over 5 yrs.

And as for 2nd round tackles, other than Linval Joseph in 2010, who else has left to go on to have a good career post Giants?
RE: RE: Eric  
Big Blue '56 : 4/2/2021 12:01 pm : link
In comment 15206896 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15206886 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


our coaching staff bears a lot of that blame. If Judge was the coach in 2016 do you think half the stuff with that FA class, Beckham, etc still happen?

You either think Judge is different or you don't. Sure he still has a ton to prove but if you aren't more comfortable with him coaching big ticket FA over McAdoo/Shurmur than I don't know what else to say on it.

IMO Judge mitigates some of the risk, and his staff (particularly on defense) should be able to get more out of these players than in years past.



I like Judge, but nobody has a crystal ball here. We all liked the direction of the team after the 2016 season as well. Nobody had doubts if McAdoo could coach veterans post-2016 either. It was only once things broke down in a way nobody saw coming that the leaks in the boat showed.


There would NOT have been a boat trip a week before a playoff if Judge was here. That’s was the beginning of the end for me with Duke McAdoo
RE: RE: Eric  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2021 12:01 pm : link
In comment 15206896 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15206886 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


our coaching staff bears a lot of that blame. If Judge was the coach in 2016 do you think half the stuff with that FA class, Beckham, etc still happen?

You either think Judge is different or you don't. Sure he still has a ton to prove but if you aren't more comfortable with him coaching big ticket FA over McAdoo/Shurmur than I don't know what else to say on it.

IMO Judge mitigates some of the risk, and his staff (particularly on defense) should be able to get more out of these players than in years past.



I like Judge, but nobody has a crystal ball here. We all liked the direction of the team after the 2016 season as well. Nobody had doubts if McAdoo could coach veterans post-2016 either. It was only once things broke down in a way nobody saw coming that the leaks in the boat showed.


Well, ever think why it broke down? Not sure I agree that no one saw it coming either - the 2016 season still had a woeful offense that McAdoo couldn't fix, which is why he was brought here in the first place.
RE: RE: UConn4523  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/2/2021 12:07 pm : link
In comment 15206899 Bernie said:
Quote:
In comment 15206859 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Because they have let the solid DT walk (proven by the fact that that player went onto have a successful career with the other team) while the free agent the Giants signed is often off of the team in a couple of years.

So the Giants let the good player walk and cut the player they signed.

Look, not to sound like a dick, but I'm pretty confident I'm on the right side of this argument. If the Giants roster wasn't such a train wreck, we wouldn't be signing all of these free agents. When we started this offseason, this roster wasn't better than when Gettleman got here. You could argue it was worse.



There is no doubt the Giants have drafted poorly and that’s why they are in this mess. But you can deal with the salary cap implications by structuring contracts that don’t bite you 3 years later and by chasing over rated free agents based on need (did anyone really think Solder was that good?) and giving them large signing bonuses that are amortized over 5 yrs.

And as for 2nd round tackles, other than Linval Joseph in 2010, who else has left to go on to have a good career post Giants?


Linval Joseph leaves and they draft Marvin Austin in the 2nd round (not much of a career). So they draft Jonathan Hankins in the 2nd round (went onto become a full-time starter with Colts and Raiders). So they fill his spot with Snacks Harrison. Snacks gets traded and then draft Dexter Lawrence the following offseason (the immediate assumption was he would replace Snacks, but Tomlinson took over the NT position).
RE: it is strange to me  
giantstock : 4/2/2021 12:14 pm : link
In comment 15206664 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
that media and fans seem to love it when teams get a nice haul on free agency. When the Giants do it, the narrative always seems to be "overpay???"


You're a homer. You are always going to twist things like that. There have been many positive posts on here with FA. I hear very few killing the Giants this offseason for their FA moves.

But keep exaggerating as you normally do. That's you schtick. For me - one who despises Gettleman- I'm fine with what he's done in FA. But now they better win enough.
RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
sb from NYT Forum : 4/2/2021 12:19 pm : link
In comment 15206920 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15206899 Bernie said:


Quote:


In comment 15206859 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Because they have let the solid DT walk (proven by the fact that that player went onto have a successful career with the other team) while the free agent the Giants signed is often off of the team in a couple of years.

So the Giants let the good player walk and cut the player they signed.

Look, not to sound like a dick, but I'm pretty confident I'm on the right side of this argument. If the Giants roster wasn't such a train wreck, we wouldn't be signing all of these free agents. When we started this offseason, this roster wasn't better than when Gettleman got here. You could argue it was worse.



There is no doubt the Giants have drafted poorly and that’s why they are in this mess. But you can deal with the salary cap implications by structuring contracts that don’t bite you 3 years later and by chasing over rated free agents based on need (did anyone really think Solder was that good?) and giving them large signing bonuses that are amortized over 5 yrs.

And as for 2nd round tackles, other than Linval Joseph in 2010, who else has left to go on to have a good career post Giants?



Linval Joseph leaves and they draft Marvin Austin in the 2nd round (not much of a career). So they draft Jonathan Hankins in the 2nd round (went onto become a full-time starter with Colts and Raiders). So they fill his spot with Snacks Harrison. Snacks gets traded and then draft Dexter Lawrence the following offseason (the immediate assumption was he would replace Snacks, but Tomlinson took over the NT position).


Only slight correction is that they Drafted Hankins before they let Joseph walk. Hankins played well his rookie year next to Joseph in 2013; the Giants were top 10 in run defense, Y/A.

Then they let Joseph walk, Hankins played poorly and the Giants had the WORST rushing defense Y/A in the league.

Oh, also should mention the genius signing of Jay Bromley in the 2014 third round.
I dont think you could operate  
Dankbeerman : 4/2/2021 12:21 pm : link
in todays nfl without some dead money. However there has to be more effort to lessen that number. I am a little worried that we spent in a down cap year but if thats what gave us the advantage over other teams maybe it was the right move.

Im not against any of the big 3 signings, but do feel Jackson is the biggest gamble. He essentially got a deal just less then we gave Bradberry last year.

I have more concerns with Jackson hitting that level of play then I did of Bradberry but they obvioualy valued him just about the same as they did with Bradberry.

We can barely afford to be wrong on 1 of these contracts but we need plus value on at least 2 of them.
RE: Eric on Li  
Bill L : 4/2/2021 12:21 pm : link
In comment 15206882 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Yup.

What I left unsaid is it just doesn't matter what Golladay and Jackson do in 2021, but what they do in 2022, 2023, and hopefully beyond.

We received immediate satisfaction from those free agents. After the 2016 season was over, despite the bad playoff loss, we were all thrilled with all three players.

BBI was pretty happy when Vernon was traded. Damon was a surprise, but then there were a bunch of media reports about locker room issues (and BBI posters started saying, "I knew there was a problem when he said he didn't want to be considered a team leader!"). Most of BBI was content with Jenkins being waived. (There seemed to be a sense that it was a matter of time before he was gone).

So you are asking when did management go south on these players? Same time that fans did.

Remember, Golladay and Jackson apparently had "baggage" too. Everyone in the media said the Giants needed to meet with him to see if he was a good fit (reminiscent of Plaxico too). Then there was all the suggested stuff on why Jackson was cut (for Jenkins ironically).

Would it be a complete shock in two years if Golladay is cut after being suspended by Judge a couple of times?


I was upset when Jenkins got cut. I thought that when he was on the field he was still doing okay (also relative to who else we had for DB). I was upset he got cut for non-performance-based reasons.
RE: RE: RE: Eric  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/2/2021 12:21 pm : link
In comment 15206914 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15206896 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 15206886 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


our coaching staff bears a lot of that blame. If Judge was the coach in 2016 do you think half the stuff with that FA class, Beckham, etc still happen?

You either think Judge is different or you don't. Sure he still has a ton to prove but if you aren't more comfortable with him coaching big ticket FA over McAdoo/Shurmur than I don't know what else to say on it.

IMO Judge mitigates some of the risk, and his staff (particularly on defense) should be able to get more out of these players than in years past.



I like Judge, but nobody has a crystal ball here. We all liked the direction of the team after the 2016 season as well. Nobody had doubts if McAdoo could coach veterans post-2016 either. It was only once things broke down in a way nobody saw coming that the leaks in the boat showed.



Well, ever think why it broke down? Not sure I agree that no one saw it coming either - the 2016 season still had a woeful offense that McAdoo couldn't fix, which is why he was brought here in the first place.


Well, yes, everyone was crying about the offensive line. It had been a problem since 2013. Yes, it was why the offense was bad. It was a lack of talent issue. If someone expected it to go away by hiring a head coach, that's just misguided.
RE: The other NFL executives are just jealous  
bw in dc : 4/2/2021 12:24 pm : link
In comment 15206634 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
of the success this current regime has had...


I sensed that, too...
TTH  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2021 12:26 pm : link
I guess its something we won't agree on. McAdoo isn't a program builder, neither was Shurmur. If they were those constant coups wouldn't have happened.

Instead we have players that seem like they actually want to play for Judge, despite hearing the contract last summer when the local beats expressed player disdain for running laps.

I think McAdoo let bad situations get worse and isn't HC material Shumur even worse.
RE: RE: The other NFL executives are just jealous  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2021 12:29 pm : link
In comment 15206952 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15206634 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


of the success this current regime has had...



I sensed that, too...


I haven't read every post here but i'll repeat for the 3rd time now what i've said, their stance is reasonable. However they left out a lot of critical information from their critique, and if in the full interview or whatever format this was, they continued to leave it out, then yes I do question them.

Is that fair or no?
Look, free agency is a tool...  
bw in dc : 4/2/2021 12:31 pm : link
and it can help plug mistakes. Gettleman hasn't drafted well and has made plenty of mistakes.

But his best work has been in the free agency window. So might as well keep going to the well. Especially this year when so much is at stake with Jones's development as the potential long term QB solution. This is such a critical year...

I would have spent more wisely on different players, but you just had to eliminate all of the excuses for Jones; and try to buy your way to a conclusion on him.
RE: RE: The owner is tired of losing.  
Go Terps : 4/2/2021 12:33 pm : link
In comment 15206869 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15206857 Joe Beckwith said:


Quote:


The new HC evaluated the talent, or lack thereof, in his vision for the team. They had to overpay for the talent available, especially for WR that don’t want to come to the NYG; then also is the premium they have to pay for the NY/NJ tax structure vs. a FL. or TX.
Almost all the multi year contracts are structured to be 2 year rental; you gotta believe a WR, DT, CB and likely OL are high on the draft board this year to be able to flip the 1 and multi year players out, specifically the under performers, ASAP.
Look how BB flips his roster. Hopefully we can develop players other teams want so we can get comp or trade picks the same was as BB.



His father was tired of losing too in the 1970s.

Wellington later admitted (loudly and often) that they made a mistake to stop building through the draft but through trades. He wanted instant improvement instead of doing it the old-fashioned way. Wellington said, "If I had to do it all over again, I would have built through the draft."

John may be going through the same learning process.


Great. Did George Young have any kids?

The Giants just did what we used to mock the Washington and the Philly "Dream Team" for doing.

This approach works if you've got Tom Brady behind a great line in Tampa. If you've got Daniel Jones behind a paper thin line with a running back that doesn't block...
RE: The owner is tired of losing.  
JonC : 4/2/2021 12:35 pm : link
In comment 15206857 Joe Beckwith said:
Quote:
The new HC evaluated the talent, or lack thereof, in his vision for the team. They had to overpay for the talent available, especially for WR that don’t want to come to the NYG; then also is the premium they have to pay for the NY/NJ tax structure vs. a FL. or TX.
Almost all the multi year contracts are structured to be 2 year rental; you gotta believe a WR, DT, CB and likely OL are high on the draft board this year to be able to flip the 1 and multi year players out, specifically the under performers, ASAP.
Look how BB flips his roster. Hopefully we can develop players other teams want so we can get comp or trade picks the same was as BB.


Good post.
I have no issue at all with what they paid  
Bill L : 4/2/2021 12:35 pm : link
(for some, we don't know what know what they would have been paid if they left the building and shopped themselves elsewhere (and neither do any of the quoted nfl exec)).

But, they have to perform. If they don't then those were bad signings regardless of what they got paid.
RE: RE: RE: The other NFL executives are just jealous  
Jimmy Googs : 4/2/2021 12:36 pm : link
In comment 15206959 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15206952 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15206634 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


of the success this current regime has had...



I sensed that, too...



I haven't read every post here but i'll repeat for the 3rd time now what i've said, their stance is reasonable. However they left out a lot of critical information from their critique, and if in the full interview or whatever format this was, they continued to leave it out, then yes I do question them.

Is that fair or no?


It's fine Uconn. I read your posts all three times. At least you stepped up more than anyone else here...
I'm curious about the "WR don't want to come to the Giants" quote  
Bill L : 4/2/2021 12:37 pm : link
Is that a real thing? Have their been wide receivers that specifically said they don't want to play here?
It's more of a reference to  
JonC : 4/2/2021 12:38 pm : link
players preferring to sign with winning teams.
RE: It's more of a reference to  
Bill L : 4/2/2021 12:39 pm : link
In comment 15206973 JonC said:
Quote:
players preferring to sign with winning teams.


Okay. I thought it might have been a Jones thing.
Well, Jones is a factor  
JonC : 4/2/2021 12:41 pm : link
he's part of the losing program.
Think  
Toth029 : 4/2/2021 12:42 pm : link
Some are really overeating Dalvin here. And I liked the guy. Fantastic presence in the locker room and solid in the run. But he couldn't rush the passer. On top of just a 2 year deal, he got $10 mil per year. Feel like many here are making his loss a bigger subtraction than it really is.

Risk is health. But that can be laid upon for other guys too, without the history of context behind it. Snacks was breaking down after 2016 - the appropriate move was to move him. The issue was his contract Reese and Co gave to him. Same for Vernon. He was never injured prior to joining the Giants yet, we saw it. Again, another albatross of a contract. These were longer deals especially JPP's and injuries paid a massive structure how they ended out.

IF Jackson and Golladay cannot stay healthy, yes, I'd agree they can be in trouble. The other moves like Rudolph and Booker hardly affect the future capital. Short term fixes that were necessary because of previous draft choices were unable to fill that gap how the (current) coaches wanted it to be.
...  
christian : 4/2/2021 12:46 pm : link
The Giants got rapid return on investment from the UFAs they signed last year. There's no reason to assume they won't get it from this group.

It all comes down to coaching and health.

I *think* Judge is a better leader than Shurmur and McAdoo. Maybe he's not, and this year should be really telling. If Judge is the well prepared, emotionally intelligent, and accountable coach he appeared to be last year, the Giants are in good hands.

The factor you can't control is health. I get a little itchy about Jackson, Rudolph, and Golladay's hip (or heart).

A lot is made of Williams's durability as a testament to the investment. It's got to work both ways for the news guys too.
RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
fireitup77 : 4/2/2021 12:47 pm : link
In comment 15206809 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15206807 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


In comment 15206802 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


We have had to spend 2nd round picks on DTs to fill vacancies created by letting good DTs walk in free agency when they are about to receive their second contract.




Again, you are talking about Jerry Reese. And, we drafted Tomlinson in 2017. He wasn't really replacing anyone. Hankins never really panned out. We should have resigned Joseph but that was 2014.



But Gettleman just did what Reese did. He let up-and-coming 2nd-round DT walk in free agency. Hopefully Shelton can replace him. If he can't, we have another hole to fill. (If we move Dexter over, then we have a hole there).


I don't see a big difference in giving a guy a second contact and paying a FA that is getting his second contact. They both get market value money. This idea that you are getting a discount on a second contact is a falsehood.

We reallocate money from the dline, where we had depth, to cb. Nothing wrong with that.
RE: RE: RE: The other NFL executives are just jealous  
bw in dc : 4/2/2021 12:48 pm : link
In comment 15206959 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15206952 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 15206634 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


of the success this current regime has had...



I sensed that, too...



I haven't read every post here but i'll repeat for the 3rd time now what i've said, their stance is reasonable. However they left out a lot of critical information from their critique, and if in the full interview or whatever format this was, they continued to leave it out, then yes I do question them.

Is that fair or no?


I was really just adding sarcasm on top of Googs's sarcasm...
RE: RE: It's more of a reference to  
Bill L : 4/2/2021 12:50 pm : link
In comment 15206976 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 15206973 JonC said:


Quote:


players preferring to sign with winning teams.



Okay. I thought it might have been a Jones thing.


Jon, who's turned us down?
RE: also  
mphbullet36 : 4/2/2021 12:54 pm : link
In comment 15206671 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
look at how the base salaries of some of these players escalate...

New York Giants Player Salaries - ( New Window )


agreed but the giants really have a low cost QB and a low cost o-line...two of most expensive positions in the NFL. I think the time to strike was now to see if DJ is the guy and make a legit playoff run or they will be rebuilding in a year or two anyway with another rookie QB if Jones isn't the guy to lead them to the playoffs.

The biggest risk I see is JJ and DG banking on the young offensive line. If it works out they will be labeled geniuses...if it tanks our season and DJ is running for his life and we can't establish the run...then it will completely backfire.

I think our passing game will be good and our defense (assuming we get one edge guy in the draft) should be easily a top 5-10 caliber defense with us having arguably the best secondary in the NFL.
here is my issue with this offseason  
GiantsFan84 : 4/2/2021 12:56 pm : link
i thought the giants were at least 1-2 years away from having a window of opportunity before this offseason. i would have traded tomlinson at the deadline. i would have traded engram this offseason. I would have cut solder and taken that cap hit now. i was fine cutting zeitler although it does appear that if they waited they may have been able to trade him (raiders were able to trade gabe jackson). i would have used those draft picks to rebuild. i'd have kept leo and signed KG. but i wouldn't have gone all in. outside of KG, i'd have only signed players who were cut by other teams to short deals to keep my cap free moving forward. I'd have waited to have gone all in until this team was closer to competing.

but the problem is jones (who i don't think is the goods). they've bungled this roster so badly for so long that they felt like they needed to spend a shit ton before this team was ready to compete to properly evaluate jones. and i'll argue they haven't even done that properly with this crap line they have in front of him. and make no mistake it is a crap line.

i don't get the love for adoree jackson. yes he's better than what we've had, but i don't know if he's 13M a year good. especially in a good CB draft w Surtain and Horn.

this management does not deserve the benefit of the doubt when it comes to anything. they have not earned it. a lot of these guys they signed have injury history too. it's a very risky move this offseason, and you don't see many team do well using this approach.
RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 12:56 pm : link
In comment 15206920 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:


Linval Joseph leaves and they draft Marvin Austin in the 2nd round (not much of a career). So they draft Jonathan Hankins in the 2nd round (went onto become a full-time starter with Colts and Raiders). So they fill his spot with Snacks Harrison. Snacks gets traded and then draft Dexter Lawrence the following offseason (the immediate assumption was he would replace Snacks, but Tomlinson took over the NT position).


Wasn't the decision to fire Reese made 3 years ago?
RE: ...  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 12:59 pm : link
In comment 15206988 christian said:
Quote:
The Giants got rapid return on investment from the UFAs they signed last year. There's no reason to assume they won't get it from this group.

It all comes down to coaching and health.

I *think* Judge is a better leader than Shurmur and McAdoo. Maybe he's not, and this year should be really telling. If Judge is the well prepared, emotionally intelligent, and accountable coach he appeared to be last year, the Giants are in good hands.

The factor you can't control is health. I get a little itchy about Jackson, Rudolph, and Golladay's hip (or heart).

A lot is made of Williams's durability as a testament to the investment. It's got to work both ways for the news guys too.


Exactly right. The difference this year is gambling on guys without clean injury histories. That's the gamble. Not the utilization of free agency writ large as a tool to improve the roster.
RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
GiantsFan84 : 4/2/2021 1:00 pm : link
In comment 15206920 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15206899 Bernie said:


Quote:


In comment 15206859 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Because they have let the solid DT walk (proven by the fact that that player went onto have a successful career with the other team) while the free agent the Giants signed is often off of the team in a couple of years.

So the Giants let the good player walk and cut the player they signed.

Look, not to sound like a dick, but I'm pretty confident I'm on the right side of this argument. If the Giants roster wasn't such a train wreck, we wouldn't be signing all of these free agents. When we started this offseason, this roster wasn't better than when Gettleman got here. You could argue it was worse.



There is no doubt the Giants have drafted poorly and that’s why they are in this mess. But you can deal with the salary cap implications by structuring contracts that don’t bite you 3 years later and by chasing over rated free agents based on need (did anyone really think Solder was that good?) and giving them large signing bonuses that are amortized over 5 yrs.

And as for 2nd round tackles, other than Linval Joseph in 2010, who else has left to go on to have a good career post Giants?



Linval Joseph leaves and they draft Marvin Austin in the 2nd round (not much of a career). So they draft Jonathan Hankins in the 2nd round (went onto become a full-time starter with Colts and Raiders). So they fill his spot with Snacks Harrison. Snacks gets traded and then draft Dexter Lawrence the following offseason (the immediate assumption was he would replace Snacks, but Tomlinson took over the NT position).


this has been their problem for 15 years. they can't fix positions. the teams spends draft picks and free agent dollars (significant picks and significant dollars) to fix the CB position and OL position and they never get fixed. and because of this they can't improve other positions and depth because every year they have to spend more picks or more money on the positions they can't fix
I’ll be a negative guy here  
cosmicj : 4/2/2021 1:02 pm : link
None of the overpays will matter because we will be moving on from Jones next year anyway and will be able to restart the clock with another rookie QB contract.
RE: NYG are paying  
santacruzom : 4/2/2021 1:02 pm : link
In comment 15206646 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
for talent with the thinking that our coaching staff can get the best out of them


That's exactly what I think as well -- they are signing players who they evaluate as possessing various traits, and are confident in their coaches' ability to maximize those traits.

In years past I'd have been very skeptical of that, but not with Judge running the show.
RE: RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 1:06 pm : link
In comment 15207017 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:


this has been their problem for 15 years. they can't fix positions. the teams spends draft picks and free agent dollars (significant picks and significant dollars) to fix the CB position and OL position and they never get fixed. and because of this they can't improve other positions and depth because every year they have to spend more picks or more money on the positions they can't fix


Do you think it looked like they started to fix each of the 3 levels of the defense last year? and the OL over the back half of the year?

With the youngest starting 22 in the NFL and a first year coaching staff there are reasons to believe they are starting to fix things (and bringing things home to this thread the veteran acquisitions of Bradberry, Williams, Ryan, Martinez, Peppers were all a big part of that improvement).
marvin Austin was so long ago  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2021 1:08 pm : link
and that was a Reese special. I have no excuses for that, it didn't work out. Since then we seem to have done ok at DT.

Again, there's risk associated to this, but CB2 has been a glaring weakness for a while now and I'm happy we upgraded. If Shelton is merely adequate than it was worth it, IMO.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
GiantsFan84 : 4/2/2021 1:11 pm : link
In comment 15207023 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15207017 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:




this has been their problem for 15 years. they can't fix positions. the teams spends draft picks and free agent dollars (significant picks and significant dollars) to fix the CB position and OL position and they never get fixed. and because of this they can't improve other positions and depth because every year they have to spend more picks or more money on the positions they can't fix



Do you think it looked like they started to fix each of the 3 levels of the defense last year? and the OL over the back half of the year?

With the youngest starting 22 in the NFL and a first year coaching staff there are reasons to believe they are starting to fix things (and bringing things home to this thread the veteran acquisitions of Bradberry, Williams, Ryan, Martinez, Peppers were all a big part of that improvement).


CB was not fixed. they had 1 CB who can play. this after using a shit ton of picks, including a first rounder on baker. OL was not fixed despite paying a shit ton for solder and zeitler, using a first on thomas, and a second on hernandez
they need answers to 2 questions  
BigBlueCane : 4/2/2021 1:13 pm : link
is Judge the Guy and is Jones the QB?

This spending spree will answer both hopefully.
RE: they need answers to 2 questions  
GiantsFan84 : 4/2/2021 1:14 pm : link
In comment 15207029 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
is Judge the Guy and is Jones the QB?

This spending spree will answer both hopefully.


i don't know if it will because they are still stuck with the clapper
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 1:15 pm : link
In comment 15207028 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
In comment 15207023 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 15207017 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:




this has been their problem for 15 years. they can't fix positions. the teams spends draft picks and free agent dollars (significant picks and significant dollars) to fix the CB position and OL position and they never get fixed. and because of this they can't improve other positions and depth because every year they have to spend more picks or more money on the positions they can't fix



Do you think it looked like they started to fix each of the 3 levels of the defense last year? and the OL over the back half of the year?

With the youngest starting 22 in the NFL and a first year coaching staff there are reasons to believe they are starting to fix things (and bringing things home to this thread the veteran acquisitions of Bradberry, Williams, Ryan, Martinez, Peppers were all a big part of that improvement).



CB was not fixed. they had 1 CB who can play. this after using a shit ton of picks, including a first rounder on baker. OL was not fixed despite paying a shit ton for solder and zeitler, using a first on thomas, and a second on hernandez


"fixed" is a misnomer. Was there improvement?
RE: they need answers to 2 questions  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 1:16 pm : link
In comment 15207029 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
is Judge the Guy and is Jones the QB?

This spending spree will answer both hopefully.


Or it at least helps increase the probability of both continuing to improve as opposed to regressing.
Lets just hope that  
Dankbeerman : 4/2/2021 1:18 pm : link
the biggest effect of the spending is that we have a great opportunity to be flexable and work the draft to our advantage to set us up with more talent for 22 and beyond.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
GiantsFan84 : 4/2/2021 1:21 pm : link
In comment 15207034 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15207028 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:


In comment 15207023 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 15207017 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:




this has been their problem for 15 years. they can't fix positions. the teams spends draft picks and free agent dollars (significant picks and significant dollars) to fix the CB position and OL position and they never get fixed. and because of this they can't improve other positions and depth because every year they have to spend more picks or more money on the positions they can't fix



Do you think it looked like they started to fix each of the 3 levels of the defense last year? and the OL over the back half of the year?

With the youngest starting 22 in the NFL and a first year coaching staff there are reasons to believe they are starting to fix things (and bringing things home to this thread the veteran acquisitions of Bradberry, Williams, Ryan, Martinez, Peppers were all a big part of that improvement).



CB was not fixed. they had 1 CB who can play. this after using a shit ton of picks, including a first rounder on baker. OL was not fixed despite paying a shit ton for solder and zeitler, using a first on thomas, and a second on hernandez



"fixed" is a misnomer. Was there improvement?


i will repeat they had 1 CB that can play last year. CB was so bad they felt the need to go out and pay jackson 13M a year

do you understand how many resources they've spent on this secondary?

2 starting CBs are making 13M and 15M (both free agent signings). ryan is making 10M (free agent signing). peppers was a centerpiece in the OBJ trade. mckinney a HIGH 2nd round pick. and this is on top of the failed picks of baker, beal, love, ballentine, holmes is TBD, yiadom cost a 7th i believe. that is an enormous amount of resources.

and as for the OL i'd say it's as bad now as its ever been
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 4/2/2021 1:22 pm : link
In comment 15207015 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
Exactly right. The difference this year is gambling on guys without clean injury histories. That's the gamble. Not the utilization of free agency writ large as a tool to improve the roster.


From a pure market standpoint I like free agency more. The player has a body of work in the NFL you can judge, and you have as good of opportunity as anyone to sign the player.

I don't think there's anything inherently that beneficial in re-signing your own player, that outweighs finding the right talent and need in the open market.
Past mistakes are not worth crying about  
DavidinBMNY : 4/2/2021 1:25 pm : link
But the golden opportunity to rebuild through the draft is when they had the #2 pick and they didn't parlay that into multi-year draft capital.

Sure DG has made other mistakes, but if you want to rebuild through the draft you need to have more picks given injuries and busts.

I don't think that mistake will happen again. I don't think as much power sits with DG anymore.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 1:28 pm : link
In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:

do you understand how many resources they've spent on this secondary?


Do you understand the resource trends with investment in DBs? Do you know how much Miami has invested in their DBs? Or the Ravens? Or the Pats? (hint: more than the NYG).

In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:


and as for the OL i'd say it's as bad now as its ever been


Don't agree on that but you are free to your opinion. Last year over the second half of the year with 2 currently unsigned backup RBs they set a franchise record for the most consecutive games with 100+ yards rushing.
Adoree Jackson  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 4/2/2021 1:39 pm : link
Seems to be the only one that the execs are confused about and I can see that. The Giants paid him A LOT of money despite his injuries and inconsistency. The talent is there and he has shown elite coverage potential at times but 2020 wasn’t a good year for him and then he got cut.

This team desperately needed a legit NFL starting caliber CB2 and they overpaid to get it. Hopefully Jackson stays healthy and delivers.
If the Giants don't get into the habit of consistent DRAFTING  
M.S. : 4/2/2021 1:42 pm : link

all the free agents in the world won't get this ship turned around.

We need more hits than misses, and we need that for several consecutive Drafts.

Otherwise, 2014 to 2030 will look just like 1964 to 1980.
well then I'll ask the audience  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2021 1:46 pm : link
what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
GiantsFan84 : 4/2/2021 1:48 pm : link
In comment 15207052 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:



do you understand how many resources they've spent on this secondary?



Do you understand the resource trends with investment in DBs? Do you know how much Miami has invested in their DBs? Or the Ravens? Or the Pats? (hint: more than the NYG).

In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:




and as for the OL i'd say it's as bad now as its ever been



Don't agree on that but you are free to your opinion. Last year over the second half of the year with 2 currently unsigned backup RBs they set a franchise record for the most consecutive games with 100+ yards rushing.


i don't want this to come across like i'm arguing with you because i'm not.

but how was the pass blocking during that stretch? who on this line right now is any good outside of thomas and gates? and that line had zeitler who is no longer on the team and was arguably their best lineman. i do not consider that improvement
A major criticism of the three top free agent contracts is that  
Marty in Albany : 4/2/2021 1:49 pm : link
all three players missed games due to injury last year and are therefore risks to miss games this year, too.

If, in fact, the risk is significant, then the NFL execs are right and the Giants are "stupid."

Are the Giants stupid? Maybe. It depends on the reliability of the medical exams given to the free agents before the the Giants signed them.

If the medical exams confirm that the injuries causing the missed games in 2020 are no longer problems for 2021, then fine. If the Giants can't reliably confirm the health status of their three top free agents, then shame on them.
In retrospect  
Bill2 : 4/2/2021 1:50 pm : link
We could have taken advantage of the QB crazed teams and traded down from slot 2.

RE: well then I'll ask the audience  
GiantsFan84 : 4/2/2021 1:53 pm : link
In comment 15207067 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...


i've said on this and other threads what i would have done. i would have accepted that the team is rebuilding and it would take another couple seasons of gradual improvement primarily through the draft. i would have wrote jones off as a bad pick and worked on improving the remaining part of the roster with the draft. i would have already extended peppers.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 1:55 pm : link
In comment 15207070 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
In comment 15207052 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:



do you understand how many resources they've spent on this secondary?



Do you understand the resource trends with investment in DBs? Do you know how much Miami has invested in their DBs? Or the Ravens? Or the Pats? (hint: more than the NYG).

In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:




and as for the OL i'd say it's as bad now as its ever been



Don't agree on that but you are free to your opinion. Last year over the second half of the year with 2 currently unsigned backup RBs they set a franchise record for the most consecutive games with 100+ yards rushing.



i don't want this to come across like i'm arguing with you because i'm not.

but how was the pass blocking during that stretch? who on this line right now is any good outside of thomas and gates? and that line had zeitler who is no longer on the team and was arguably their best lineman. i do not consider that improvement


on the whole pressure rate went down as did turnovers. They had a few poor games against strong teams when Jones was hurt (AZ, CLE, BAL) and OL statistics aren't example easy to analyze but the back half of the year I believe was statistically a big improvement from the front half. And a big reason why they went 5-3 in their last 8.
RE: RE: Eric  
santacruzom : 4/2/2021 1:57 pm : link
In comment 15206775 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15206750 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


just don't pretend that 10M of dead cap space is significant. It's not, and it's a dumb argument to be honest.



The NFL salary cap is not actually that large when you take into account 53 contracts. So anything above 5 percent is "significant", especially when it is year after year after year:

NYG dead money as a percentage of the cap by year:

2021: 5.6 percent (so far)
2020: 10.8 percent
2019: 28.1 percent
2018: 24.7 percent

So yes, the trend is down, but you can see from 2018 and 2019 that when you screw up in a FA signing, it can crush you like 2018 and 2019.

You are argue 5.6 percent doesn't really matter. It does in that it prevents you from keeping someone like Tomlinson or signing another reasonably priced free agent. It's like interest on debt. It's just wasted money.


I would argue that the degree to which it matters depends on a combination with other factors that determine whether or not you are a good team. For example, 10 million dollars in dead money probably means nothing to a relatively stacked team that annually makes the playoffs. But that amount of money could be both a problem and a symptom of larger issues to a team that is or has been routinely bad, such as ours.
that isn't really a plan though  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2021 1:57 pm : link
so no spending until when? When we move on from Jones who's our QB? What happens when plan A of building through the draft doesn't work out - what's plan B?
RE: well then I'll ask the audience  
Go Terps : 4/2/2021 1:59 pm : link
In comment 15207067 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...


I wouldn't have paid that kind of money for Golladay and Jackson, who combined started 7 games last year.

I'd have paid Williams and Tomlinson, and focused the remainder of FA on the Ross/Shelton/Ragland/Odenigbo type signings...short deals for small dollars. One exception though...I would have gone a different route at backup QB. I'd have targeted Brissett or Tyrod Taylor. Both are more expensive than Glennon, but it's still a drop in the bucket to what Golladay and Jackson got. Signing Glennon tells me:

- They don't want to make Jones uncomfortable
- The Jones injury freaked them out, and he's going to be used less as a runner in 2021

I do agree with cosmicj above that Jones is unlikely to see a second contract here, and thus the Golladay and Jackson expenditures won't be too painful on the cap long term.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
GiantsFan84 : 4/2/2021 2:02 pm : link
In comment 15207077 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15207070 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:


In comment 15207052 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:



do you understand how many resources they've spent on this secondary?



Do you understand the resource trends with investment in DBs? Do you know how much Miami has invested in their DBs? Or the Ravens? Or the Pats? (hint: more than the NYG).

In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:




and as for the OL i'd say it's as bad now as its ever been



Don't agree on that but you are free to your opinion. Last year over the second half of the year with 2 currently unsigned backup RBs they set a franchise record for the most consecutive games with 100+ yards rushing.



i don't want this to come across like i'm arguing with you because i'm not.

but how was the pass blocking during that stretch? who on this line right now is any good outside of thomas and gates? and that line had zeitler who is no longer on the team and was arguably their best lineman. i do not consider that improvement



on the whole pressure rate went down as did turnovers. They had a few poor games against strong teams when Jones was hurt (AZ, CLE, BAL) and OL statistics aren't example easy to analyze but the back half of the year I believe was statistically a big improvement from the front half. And a big reason why they went 5-3 in their last 8.


they went 5-3 because of the following

eagles (horrible team)
bengals (backup QB and barely won)
cowboys (backup QB and barely won)
wft (kyle allen QB got injured in the beginning of the game)
seahawks - a very good win
I'm not sure I follow much of the criticism here  
Mike from Ohio : 4/2/2021 2:03 pm : link
The observation that they paid out a lot of money to free agent players with recent injury histories is a risk that could blow up on them. They didn't say it was reckless or stupid, they just pointed out something that is fairly obvious.

The Giants roster needed significant upgrades to be competitive. Regardless of the cause, that is where they were. They gambled on these guys being a big piece of that solution. Like everything else, it will be brilliant if it works and stupid if it doesn't. I don't know that I would have done anything differently if I was trying to snap out of a very long streak of not being competitive.

But to think someone must have a bias if they don't like signing Adoree Jackson to a significant raise after his current team just cut him to avoid paying him $10M is a bit silly.
RE: RE: well then I'll ask the audience  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2021 2:14 pm : link
In comment 15207081 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15207067 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...



I wouldn't have paid that kind of money for Golladay and Jackson, who combined started 7 games last year.

I'd have paid Williams and Tomlinson, and focused the remainder of FA on the Ross/Shelton/Ragland/Odenigbo type signings...short deals for small dollars. One exception though...I would have gone a different route at backup QB. I'd have targeted Brissett or Tyrod Taylor. Both are more expensive than Glennon, but it's still a drop in the bucket to what Golladay and Jackson got. Signing Glennon tells me:

- They don't want to make Jones uncomfortable
- The Jones injury freaked them out, and he's going to be used less as a runner in 2021

I do agree with cosmicj above that Jones is unlikely to see a second contract here, and thus the Golladay and Jackson expenditures won't be too painful on the cap long term.


All fair, I would have been on board as well. Truth is I didn't want Golladay at that price but, and its a big but, I expect all FA prices to go up next year so i'm curious what his contract will look like compared to next years market.
No Risk It, No Biscuit  
kdog77 : 4/2/2021 2:15 pm : link
The primary question is whether the current roster is better than 2020 and if this team can win at least 3 more games. If healthy I think KG and Barkley can certainly make a difference in close games and shift pressure off the D. The big known unknown in all of these moves is whether DG's original gamble on Jones was right. We shall see.

I tend agree the Giants probably went overboard on FA spending and there is inherent risk in giving any player with injury history more money than their original team would offer them. However, the Giants will still have Jones on cheap rookie deal through 2023. All of the FA signings with the exception of KG expire in 2023. While we may not get the wins we expected out of the FA signings we hope for, I think the Giants are set up to take full advantage of Jones' rookie deal window in terms of surrounding him with talent. If not now, when?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 2:23 pm : link
In comment 15207084 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:


they went 5-3 because of the following

eagles (horrible team)
bengals (backup QB and barely won)
cowboys (backup QB and barely won)
wft (kyle allen QB got injured in the beginning of the game)
seahawks - a very good win


either wins are wins and losses are losses or that game both ways. the week prior to the PHI win they played TB down to the last play of the game.

And the backup QB stuff is a little silly since they were playing with Colt McCoy in a bunch of those games. For all the hyperbole about his performance last year he threw 1 touchdown.
RE: Adoree Jackson  
christian : 4/2/2021 2:24 pm : link
In comment 15207061 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
Seems to be the only one that the execs are confused about and I can see that. The Giants paid him A LOT of money despite his injuries and inconsistency. The talent is there and he has shown elite coverage potential at times but 2020 wasn’t a good year for him and then he got cut.

This team desperately needed a legit NFL starting caliber CB2 and they overpaid to get it. Hopefully Jackson stays healthy and delivers.


Jackson is a high risk/reward investment. If you know anything about my opinions, I am pro secondary and think it's the area to virtually always invest.

This is the one investment where I'm nervous.
RE: RE: Adoree Jackson  
Eric on Li : 4/2/2021 2:28 pm : link
In comment 15207105 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 15207061 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:


Quote:


Seems to be the only one that the execs are confused about and I can see that. The Giants paid him A LOT of money despite his injuries and inconsistency. The talent is there and he has shown elite coverage potential at times but 2020 wasn’t a good year for him and then he got cut.

This team desperately needed a legit NFL starting caliber CB2 and they overpaid to get it. Hopefully Jackson stays healthy and delivers.



Jackson is a high risk/reward investment. If you know anything about my opinions, I am pro secondary and think it's the area to virtually always invest.

This is the one investment where I'm nervous.


I agree. I'd have preferred a 1 year deal for Malcolm Butler (or another veteran) to both mitigate risk and have more money to spend elsewhere (then reinvest that $ in Trai Turner or Tomlinson maybe).

I can see the potential upside in a highly talented young player at a premium position with a lot more speed though. It just seems odd TEN would give up on him the way they did. Though I guess the Bears did the same with Floyd last year.
RE: well then I'll ask the audience  
Jimmy Googs : 4/2/2021 2:43 pm : link
In comment 15207067 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...


If kept the relative same basics then would have only spent up to what was available without restructuring any current deals and toned down the salary escalators in some others. This probably means losing either Golladay or Jackson as the result of that, but so be it.

If didn't keep the same basics:
- Would not have given Williams any deal once it hit $20M/year. Tag and trade if able. If not walk away and
would have then gotten a deal done with Tomlinson.
- Would not have done Golladay deal. Would have focused dollars on younger TE (Hunter most attractive) versus Rudolph. Would have traded or cut Engram.
- Would have used higher dollars to add something into the interior OL. Guard or Center (if Center, then moved Gates to RG).
- Would not have bothered with Booker & Toilolo deals.
- If the above allows for Jackson deal then okay. This was an odd one though for certain.
- Focus of Day 1 and Day 2 of Draft: WR, OL & TE
RE: RE: well then I'll ask the audience  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/2/2021 2:58 pm : link
In comment 15207075 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
In comment 15207067 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...



i've said on this and other threads what i would have done. i would have accepted that the team is rebuilding and it would take another couple seasons of gradual improvement primarily through the draft. i would have wrote jones off as a bad pick and worked on improving the remaining part of the roster with the draft. i would have already extended peppers.


LOL. So, you would extend Peppers based on one year but written off Jones as a failed pick? I'm really fucking glad you aren't making the moves.

RE: RE: RE: well then I'll ask the audience  
GiantsFan84 : 4/2/2021 3:05 pm : link
In comment 15207129 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 15207075 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:


In comment 15207067 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...



i've said on this and other threads what i would have done. i would have accepted that the team is rebuilding and it would take another couple seasons of gradual improvement primarily through the draft. i would have wrote jones off as a bad pick and worked on improving the remaining part of the roster with the draft. i would have already extended peppers.



LOL. So, you would extend Peppers based on one year but written off Jones as a failed pick? I'm really fucking glad you aren't making the moves.


how'd not extending williams work out? i'd either extend peppers (my preference) or trade him

and yes about jones. i think he stinks
we tried extending Williams  
UConn4523 : 4/2/2021 3:10 pm : link
he thought he was worth more and won. Definitely no interest in going down that rabbit hole again but you can't make people sign.

What's Peppers' extension look like?
.  
Go Terps : 4/2/2021 3:17 pm : link
Schwartz reported that Williams's market value was $10M-$12M in March 2020. If Gettleman had just held his water (Gettleman's own words, if I remember right) and not traded for him, he probably would have been able to sign Williams for a fraction of what we're paying him now. But the juice was worth the squeeze.

That's one of Gettleman's failings - he falls in full bloom love and it makes him do stupid things.
Wow....1st....pretty much everything has some level of risk  
George from PA : 4/2/2021 3:30 pm : link
I contend much of the dead money is due to the coaching changes....

Injury prone is a problem....but was Galloday injury prone....or just injured?

Mara played it cool....but he knows where the cap is going
RE: RE: RE: RE: well then I'll ask the audience  
broadbandz : 4/2/2021 3:58 pm : link
In comment 15207141 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
In comment 15207129 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


In comment 15207075 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:


In comment 15207067 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...



i've said on this and other threads what i would have done. i would have accepted that the team is rebuilding and it would take another couple seasons of gradual improvement primarily through the draft. i would have wrote jones off as a bad pick and worked on improving the remaining part of the roster with the draft. i would have already extended peppers.



LOL. So, you would extend Peppers based on one year but written off Jones as a failed pick? I'm really fucking glad you aren't making the moves.




how'd not extending williams work out? i'd either extend peppers (my preference) or trade him

and yes about jones. i think he stinks


just stop watching the giants for about 5 yrs if you think Jones stinks because thats how long it will take to fix that problem. Glad you're still holding on to that pre-draft narrative on Jones.
Jones stinking  
Go Terps : 4/2/2021 4:05 pm : link
Is a pre-draft (read Sy's scouting report) and post-draft (performance speaks for itself) narrative.
There is a balance here  
NoGainDayne : 4/2/2021 4:24 pm : link
I definitely would prefer them to do things to actually put a winning football team on the field instead of overvaluing their talent and acting as if they will compete when they won't or can't. I do feel better about this roster than I have in quite a few years.

That being said, it is important that we look at these risks accurately. And they have been hamstrung by dead cap space too much recently, they've built too much through FA recently and it hasn't really worked. Far too often it seems like people's own optimism about the team and the moves turns into them remembering moves as less risky than they actually were. Or better decisions than they actually were.

While we have greatly increased our chances this year if Jones and Barkley are not ready to step up to their draft status the we aren't really in the best position to have a winning team because we have essentially overspent on supporting players meaning to win with this core we need players to be both elite and cheap which you don't put yourself in great position to get if you spend excessively to be mediocre...
....  
BrettNYG10 : 4/2/2021 4:43 pm : link
I very much like the risks the Giants took this off-season. They weren't absolute bargains, but that's fine.

The 2018-2020 drafts will be bigger drivers of team success than this off-season, though.

I think the Giants, for the first time under Gettleman, have built a roster with playoff potential (and not bullshit NFC East playoff potential). I wouldn't bet they'd get there, but I can see a path to a ten win team.
RE: ...  
ColHowPepper : 4/2/2021 4:47 pm : link
In comment 15206988 christian said:
Quote:
...
I *think* Judge is a better leader than Shurmur and McAdoo. Maybe he's not, and this year should be really telling. If Judge is the well prepared, emotionally intelligent, and accountable coach he appeared to be last year, the Giants are in good hands.
Yes and no. Judge will still be laboring under the handicap of two years of DG's poor drafts and the prior regime. And while signings have addressed certain key needs, nowhere have the failings of 8 years of poor drafting--plus really bad FA signings--hit harder than the OL. It is the black hole of Giants' doormatdom during this period. So, I remain mystified by the lack of spending even modestly for OL absent a plan I'm not privy to, or credible coaching staff assessment that the incumbents can approach League average. Most insiders here don't believe Giants will go OL day 1 because of other, legitimate needs. Last year's splurge on OL (1st, 3rd, 5th) largely remains 'don't sleep on 'Pio' redux until proven otherwise. We saw how 'Pio worked out.
RE: By getting their players in a low cap year, they are avoiding the  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/2/2021 5:42 pm : link
In comment 15206724 Ira said:
Quote:
inflation that should come in '22. When the cap goes higher, contracts will go correspondingly higher.

That's not exactly true. The Giants may have saved slightly on AAV by buying during a down year for the cap, but they're taking the savings this year for every single one of those contracts. The implied inflation of an increasing cap is already baked into every one of those contracts, in some cases, to a dramatic extent.

That doesn't make the contracts bad per se, but the Giants didn't really gain any future bargains by signing players this year when the market was deflated. If you look at this year's signings with year one removed, those future cap hits are probably going to look exactly like what a 2022 FA's AAV is going to be.
Except  
Bill2 : 4/2/2021 5:52 pm : link
Years where the cap increases means:

fewer otherwise desirable FA reach FA?

The market setting cases ( granted over buys) are able to be quite high relative to the current averages?

Immutable laws of the Dutch Tulip market mentality that overtakes 22 of 32 owners each year??
Should be  
Bill2 : 4/2/2021 5:54 pm : link
Inevitable outcomes of the Dutch Tulip market mentality
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: well then I'll ask the audience  
GiantsFan84 : 4/2/2021 6:12 pm : link
In comment 15207221 broadbandz said:
Quote:
In comment 15207141 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:


In comment 15207129 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


In comment 15207075 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:


In comment 15207067 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...



i've said on this and other threads what i would have done. i would have accepted that the team is rebuilding and it would take another couple seasons of gradual improvement primarily through the draft. i would have wrote jones off as a bad pick and worked on improving the remaining part of the roster with the draft. i would have already extended peppers.



LOL. So, you would extend Peppers based on one year but written off Jones as a failed pick? I'm really fucking glad you aren't making the moves.




how'd not extending williams work out? i'd either extend peppers (my preference) or trade him

and yes about jones. i think he stinks



just stop watching the giants for about 5 yrs if you think Jones stinks because thats how long it will take to fix that problem. Glad you're still holding on to that pre-draft narrative on Jones.


why would i stop watching because i think jones stinks? kent graham stunk. dave brown stunk. danny kanell (sorry danny) stunk. there were plenty of bad qbs this team has. i watched them all. every game. just because i think the qb stinks doesn't mean i'm not a fan
...  
christian : 4/2/2021 6:30 pm : link
The one area I’d caution is that the Giants can get out of contracts with little penalty. That’s not true in the aggregate.

2023 is where a lot of decisions land, and if these primary players are cut you have earmarked a lot of money on players not on your roster. Worst case scenarios:

- Williams 7.5M dead money
- Golladay 10.2M dead money
- Ryan 1.5M dead money
- Jackson 4.5M dead money

I imagine the rough design is run this core group, including Jones, Barkley, etc. through 2022, with 2022 being where you expect to deep in the mix.
RE: Jones stinking  
broadbandz : 4/2/2021 6:33 pm : link
In comment 15207234 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Is a pre-draft (read Sy's scouting report) and post-draft (performance speaks for itself) narrative.


every single qb expert said Jones had a good last yr. Every single one. Not some fan looking up TD numbers.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 4/2/2021 6:41 pm : link
Re. Jones, whatever. It's time to put up or shut up this fall. No more excuses.
RE: RE: Jones stinking  
Producer : 4/2/2021 6:59 pm : link
In comment 15207452 broadbandz said:
Quote:
In comment 15207234 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Is a pre-draft (read Sy's scouting report) and post-draft (performance speaks for itself) narrative.



every single qb expert said Jones had a good last yr. Every single one. Not some fan looking up TD numbers.


sure keep telling yourself this.. but it is not reality.

There is a lot of doubt around the league about Jones. Appropriately so. And there are no QB experts that think Jones is close to a finished product. It is true many do see potential. Heading into Year 3 it is time to convert potential into stardom or it will be time to move on from this kid.

RE: Except  
Zeke's Alibi : 4/2/2021 7:18 pm : link
In comment 15207412 Bill2 said:
Quote:
Years where the cap increases means:

fewer otherwise desirable FA reach FA?

The market setting cases ( granted over buys) are able to be quite high relative to the current averages?

Immutable laws of the Dutch Tulip market mentality that overtakes 22 of 32 owners each year??


Bingo. Which is why it isn't wise to invest into the very top end of the FA market with the big exception being this year. Many teams just weren't in the position to spend. I'm glad we recognized this and made it work where we could.

There's a reason Bill dropped the hammer this year in FA spending. Competition was much lower than a usual year. Got lucky that they were just happening to bite the bullet last y ear for the future, but some guys get all the breaks!
RE: RE: Jones stinking  
bw in dc : 4/2/2021 7:25 pm : link
In comment 15207452 broadbandz said:
Quote:
In comment 15207234 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Is a pre-draft (read Sy's scouting report) and post-draft (performance speaks for itself) narrative.



every single qb expert said Jones had a good last yr. Every single one. Not some fan looking up TD numbers.


How do you feel about QBR as a neutral statistical measurement?
RE: RE: RE: Jones stinking  
Bill L : 4/2/2021 8:07 pm : link
In comment 15207508 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15207452 broadbandz said:


Quote:


In comment 15207234 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Is a pre-draft (read Sy's scouting report) and post-draft (performance speaks for itself) narrative.



every single qb expert said Jones had a good last yr. Every single one. Not some fan looking up TD numbers.



How do you feel about QBR as a neutral statistical measurement?

I thought your standard was kiloTDs?
Mara is running everything  
uconngiant : 4/2/2021 8:19 pm : link
I still think he has the last word and why we have gone in the direction they have in the last few years. Not that I trust Gettleman but I have faith right now in Judge until he proves me wrong.
RE: RE: RE: UConn4523  
Bernie : 4/3/2021 8:06 am : link
In comment 15206920 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 15206899 Bernie said:


Quote:


In comment 15206859 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Because they have let the solid DT walk (proven by the fact that that player went onto have a successful career with the other team) while the free agent the Giants signed is often off of the team in a couple of years.

So the Giants let the good player walk and cut the player they signed.

Look, not to sound like a dick, but I'm pretty confident I'm on the right side of this argument. If the Giants roster wasn't such a train wreck, we wouldn't be signing all of these free agents. When we started this offseason, this roster wasn't better than when Gettleman got here. You could argue it was worse.



There is no doubt the Giants have drafted poorly and that’s why they are in this mess. But you can deal with the salary cap implications by structuring contracts that don’t bite you 3 years later and by chasing over rated free agents based on need (did anyone really think Solder was that good?) and giving them large signing bonuses that are amortized over 5 yrs.

And as for 2nd round tackles, other than Linval Joseph in 2010, who else has left to go on to have a good career post Giants?



Linval Joseph leaves and they draft Marvin Austin in the 2nd round (not much of a career). So they draft Jonathan Hankins in the 2nd round (went onto become a full-time starter with Colts and Raiders). So they fill his spot with Snacks Harrison. Snacks gets traded and then draft Dexter Lawrence the following offseason (the immediate assumption was he would replace Snacks, but Tomlinson took over the NT position).


Austin stunk, Hankins was not worth the money he received and Snacks turned out to be a bad locker room presence. Just because these players leave, doesn’t not mean you want to keep them. That is the definition of constantly trying to upgrade the roster, regardless of where they were drafted.
They overpaid  
AcesUp : 4/3/2021 9:01 am : link
In the context of this off-season but I don’t see Golladay and Jackson as overpays in a “normal” cap year. That’s about what they would have gotten last year, probably higher. Healthy year this year and a jacked up cap flush with new tv money? They’re getting much more. The Leonard Williams thing has been beaten to death but they painted themselves into that corner and had no choice but to overpay without getting absolutely destroyed by fans and media.
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