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“New England was good,” an evaluator said. “It cost a lot of money, but they had to do something to try to turn it around there. I put the Giants in the same category. They spent too much money relative to what they acquired, but they needed to acquire what they acquired Some teams operate from a position of strength during free agency. The 2021 Giants were not one of them. Leonard Williams held the leverage in negotiations as a player the team acquired via trade, helping him land a three-year, $63 million contract to rank behind only Joey Bosa, Myles Garrett and Aaron Donald among defensive linemen. The Giants paid $18 million a year for Kenny Golladay when the next receiver in free agency earned $12.5 million. They paid $13 million a year for cornerback Adoree Jackson, who actually got a raise over what he was earning from Tennessee, the team that cut him. “What they paid was ridiculous to me, but who they got wasn’t a problem,” an exec said. “They had trouble getting receivers to go there, so the Golladay deal is kind of what happens. I don’t know how they got Adoree Jackson to $13 million. Adoree is talented but has been hurt a lot. Kyle Rudolph can be a good signing because they can go to 12 personnel now and be really good.” Giants owner John Mara acknowledged the high prices, joking that critics can call the team stupid, but not cheap. “The Adoree Jackson deal was inexcusable,” an exec said. “And then they went and jeopardized their future cap by converting guys to get all these deals done. The potential for disaster is high.” The team is betting on Golladay, who missed 11 games last season, and Jackson, who missed 18 games over the past two seasons. Rudolph is 31 and missed four games last season after a five-year run without missing any. “Going into free agency, the cap was lower and a lot of teams did not have much ammo,” an evaluator said. “The longer you waited, the bigger the bargains were going to be. Adoree Jackson was late in the process. He should have been a bargain, and he wasn’t. That was questionable.” |
WR didn't want to go to Giants...really? Ridiculous
Lets see what players sign for next year....when cap starts to skyrocket
Garafolo compared it to the Cardinals dropping the 5th yr option on Antrel Rolle. They did it with intentions to bring him back at a reduced price. Giants plucked him and gave him big money. We all know how that ended. Risky? Sure, but every move be it FA or the draft carries a risk.
Here is the operative phrase ". . .who they got wasn’t a problem." Exactly. I am sure some of these execs are jealous because Mara and Tisch handed the checkbook over to Dave and Joe and these execs had to go shop the discounted items aisle. I am sure some of them now have issues extending their own players after seeing guys with injury issues cash in. And no doubt there are some who don't think the spending was very wise.
Don't care. They got players and these other execs can cry a river when we are in the playoffs.
Ultimately, the QB is a massive advantage financially for the next couple years, and they need to take advantage of that window.
A related point I've seen noted is that Kraft played the key role in new NFL media deal negotiations, and likely has as good a sense as any owner in future cap value. And he of course spent a boatload this offseason like the Giants, perhaps seeing it as an opportunity before the new deal kicked in.
I thought that point would be acknowledged by a NFL exec. His salary isn't prohibitive.
On top of that, the way the contracts are structured, we could reasonably move on from most of these guys after a couple of years if needed. And the cap is expected to rise significantly.
Golladay is a little bit on the higher end of the WR landscape but he still got 12m less guaranteed than Amari Cooper did last year and 2m less per year. He got a similar deal to what Stephon Diggs ($72m) received. And Robert Woods ($65m). 2 years ago Brandon Cooks got $81 with $50m in guarantees. Again there's injury risk with Golladay but I don't think there's much question about what he brings on the field and $28m guaranteed is not excessive.
And it is objectively false that he's being paid like a top receiver. Hopkins' $27.25m AAV is almost $10m more per year. Julio Jones is at $22m. When Tyreek Hill hits UFA in a couple years he will easily exceed $20m/year if he keeps playing well. Davante Adams is likely to extend at some point over the next 12 months and I'd guess he tops Hopkins.
Washington gave William Jackson III more money. Is he some uncovered stud stuck in Cincinnati? No, he's a good player and he's also already 28. Adoree is 25. Who got the better value there? Let's ask the exec...
If these FA signings improve the Giants significantly, then no one is gonna criticize these figures all that much.
And if these FA signings amount to nothing at all, well then, release the hounds.
Also, can we stop with the Golladay contract being compared to one year deals. If the Giants offer him lets say $14 mil per year then he laughs, moves on, and takes the best one year deal to get to FA next year with a larger cap hit.
What this article also seems to miss is this is like buying expensive houses prior to the pandemic. Nobody is looking at someone who bought an expensive house in 2019 and saying 8t wasn't worth it now. Everyone and their mother knows this cap is going to significantly increase so the time to buy was this year.
I have been adamant how the Giants completely mishandled the Leonard Williams situation and I wasn't even mad at the initial trade. I wouldn't have done that but I understood the thought process. What I didn't agree with was tagging him last year. At the best they should have either given him the TT or the non-exclusive tag and let him shop himself around. Tagging him gave him a floor to negotiate from. Tagging him a second time made that floor higher. I wouldn't have done that but it is done and Leonard Williams is a great player and teammate so it is time to move on.
They did not fuck up their cap for the future. They won't be big spenders in the future but they aren't crippled by it either. And, as the article says, the Giants weren't in a position of strength. If this FA period pays off then in the future they will be negotiating from a position of strength giving them the ability to be patient and get deals to fill in the cracks. The key is drafting well. We were bad for so long that some of these moves were necessary to help fast track us to a better team while not destroying our future cap.
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at the money Jackson got is hilarious to me. His contract makes him the 15th highest paid CB in the NFL.
I thought that point would be acknowledged by a NFL exec. His salary isn't prohibitive.
On top of that, the way the contracts are structured, we could reasonably move on from most of these guys after a couple of years if needed. And the cap is expected to rise significantly.
Exactly, the longest deal we have out was 4 years to Golladay and I believe we have an out after year 3 if it doesn’t work out. It’s not like we signed these players to 5 or 6 year contracts.
The off-season has been a shocker but definetly a positive surprise. That is how I see ... as they say "scared money don't win."
The rest, would look as bad as the exec said if not for the fact the cap will go up quite a bit. It's calculated, but I've seen this franchise make worse financial decisions.
The Giants wanted to find guys they liked, and lock them down. All players have injury risk. Some of these guys will miss time. That’s the NFL. But if they mostly stay mostly healthy, we got better. We needed to do that badly. These guys are proven NFL players, not “hope they develop” draft picks.
But, isn't that basically always the case?
If you look across the roster the only mainstay that is up for a new contract next year is Peppers, who I feel will not ask for a fortune to stay here as he seems happy to be a Giant given the recruiting he has been doing. I’m sure he’ll get paid but I see him possibly being extended this offseason or during the season.
We have a lot of young players on cost controlled contracts for the next few years is my point overall. That gives you the flexibility to overspend a little to fill in the gaps.
The Giants spent $170 million on three players this offseason. If any of those three have to be cut, or get injured, we have a huge cap hit that will prevent the team from keeping its own players (see Tomlinson as the latest example).
The counter-argument has always been, "What choice did the Giants have?!"
The did have a choice. They could have chosen not to give huge contracts to Olivier Vernon, Nate Solder, etc., bit the bullet, acquired draft picks (including comp picks), and rebuilt through the draft and cheap free agents.
The Giants are obviously all-in for the upcoming season. The division isn't very good and they know it. But if you look at the schedule, it's a bitch. We play both Super Bowl teams. If the Giants are 10-6, then the fans will be happy. But if this team is 6-10 again?
The question with him is durability and suiting up. If he's healthy he's a high quality corner and a huge upgrade from what they had.
New York Giants Player Salaries - ( New Window )
The only part that matters is the guaranteed dollars and the cap hits associated with them spread out over the length.
If the Giants did nothing - I imagine you would have said "well - now we are only relying on Gettleman to find good players in the draft, and his draft record has been below average" or something to that effect.
There has to be some type of balance.
The Giants spent $170 million on three players this offseason. If any of those three have to be cut, or get injured, we have a huge cap hit that will prevent the team from keeping its own players (see Tomlinson as the latest example).
The counter-argument has always been, "What choice did the Giants have?!"
The did have a choice. They could have chosen not to give huge contracts to Olivier Vernon, Nate Solder, etc., bit the bullet, acquired draft picks (including comp picks), and rebuilt through the draft and cheap free agents.
The Giants are obviously all-in for the upcoming season. The division isn't very good and they know it. But if you look at the schedule, it's a bitch. We play both Super Bowl teams. If the Giants are 10-6, then the fans will be happy. But if this team is 6-10 again?
I agree there is risk Eric, but the signings this season seemed a lot more targeted than Reese’s splurge on Vernon, Jenkins, and Snacks. Golladay has been a more established player and fits a need we have had for years which is a tall receiver who can make contested catches and he is still young. Jackson is only 25 and is a perfect complement to Bradberry. There are also connections between him and Logan Ryan and Peppers which should bring some continuity to the team. The rest of the signings are mostly low cost low risk 1-2 year deals.
The Giants nailed free agency with the players and the executed contracts and these other executives are just missing it?
i don't think any of their "name" FA signings are a lock to make it through a full season. far from it. so it's not somuch that they overpayed, it's that they overpaid for injury-prone skill position players, on a team already full of injury-prone skill position players (shepard, engram, barkley).
I'm not trying to wring my hands about something that has a great many unknowns. Cap increase/player development/contract details.
IMV, the other GMs are just a bit jelly.
The only part that matters is the guaranteed dollars and the cap hits associated with them spread out over the length.
Yes and no. The Giants have backloaded a number of contracts to a serious degree. Yes, all teams do this, but look at the base salaries of Bradberry, Martinez, Williams, Golladay, Shepard, Rudolph, Jackson, and Ryan. They explode in coming years. The Giants had to switch salary to bonus money with the contracts of Bradberry and Martinez ONLY after one year just to create room because they have so much dead money. What happens with Jones and Barkley get their second contracts?
Everyone keeps saying the salary cap is going to go way, way up. The Giants had better pray it does. (Many of the other teams are not acting like they are convinced it will.... on average, teams are currently over $14 million under the cap).
Significant yes but a far cry from what they did in 2016 when they gave out $106m to free agents who had never put on a jersey here.
The Pats spent on $168m in full guarantees this offseason and I believe almost all of that was for UFAs (not extensions).
As mentioned earlier the big risk difference I see is on the injury side, not the $ side.
Would you rather have a run stuffer or athletic CB? That’s rhetorical in today’s NFL.
And escalating salaries are irrelevant. That structure is preferable to bonuses. If they player does not perform, he is cut with limited dead money. Fine by me.
The Giants nailed free agency with the players and the executed contracts and these other executives are just missing it?
I don't think they are missing it, but id be curious to know which Execs it is so we can all look at their resumes.
What they say is fair but atleast from what's posted here, none address that the cap will go back up and these can technically all be discount contracts as soon as 2022.
Should NFL executives provide that level of detail in their analysis?
The object is to win. You don't get a field goal multiplier for being the team with the least risk.
It's a sport.
"Wtf is Tyree doing in there?"
Perfect example of critique by complaining about risk.
" Just make sure they have to throw it to Manningham "
Some of us have gotten so used to complaining we complain "something could go wrong" as if that truth is useful analysis.
It's also true that if you get out of bed and get hit by lightning walking to your car in the driveway...its on you for taking that risk. Anyone live that way? Then why obssess about the risks needed to win in a sport?
Hell, NE took hell of a risk on one QB for 10 years or more. The risk of severe injury and not winning again against 31 other teams only goes up. Why pay a dime for that? Something could go wrong.
Why station three carriers north of Midway? Something could go wrong.
Why ride a bicycle? Something could go wrong.
Why enter the event Mr Phelps? You could drown.
Would you rather have a run stuffer or athletic CB? That’s rhetorical in today’s NFL.
And escalating salaries are irrelevant. That structure is preferable to bonuses. If they player does not perform, he is cut with limited dead money. Fine by me.
The "irrelevant" argument has been made by BBIers for the past 10 years. The results seem to suggest it may be relevant after all.
A significant chunk of this team's salary cap is being taken up by players who are no longer on the roster. Again.
No draft choices and no contracts. We keep the money.
After all, we would lose 17 games at the most but we would have spent nothing.
The above it true. Is it insightful?
The object is to win. You don't get a field goal multiplier for being the team with the least risk.
It's a sport.
"Wtf is Tyree doing in there?"
Perfect example of critique by complaining about risk.
" Just make sure they have to throw it to Manningham "
Some of us have gotten so used to complaining we complain "something could go wrong" as if that truth is useful analysis.
It's also true that if you get out of bed and get hit by lightning walking to your car in the driveway...its on you for taking that risk. Anyone live that way? Then why obssess about the risks needed to win in a sport?
Hell, NE took hell of a risk on one QB for 10 years or more. The risk of severe injury and not winning again against 31 other teams only goes up. Why pay a dime for that? Something could go wrong.
Why station three carriers north of Midway? Something could go wrong.
Why ride a bicycle? Something could go wrong.
Why enter the event Mr Phelps? You could drown.
Also if we accept the premise that WR was the teams #1 need pre-KG to the point that the first round pick "almost had to be" a WR, a rookie WR would have come with just as many if not more risks. The risk calculation goes both ways - a risk taken on was a different risk hedged.
A significant chunk of this team's salary cap is being taken up by players who are no longer on the roster. Again.
What?
Who besides Tate and Zeitler? Their combined dead cap hit is 3% of our salary cap. That's "a significant chunk?" C'mon Eric.
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He is a run down only player who is being paid $10 million/yr. The Giants replaced him with a run down only player for $1.0 million. Seems shrewd to me.
Would you rather have a run stuffer or athletic CB? That’s rhetorical in today’s NFL.
And escalating salaries are irrelevant. That structure is preferable to bonuses. If they player does not perform, he is cut with limited dead money. Fine by me.
The "irrelevant" argument has been made by BBIers for the past 10 years. The results seem to suggest it may be relevant after all.
A significant chunk of this team's salary cap is being taken up by players who are no longer on the roster. Again.
And you deal with it, hopefully learn from it, and move on. Not making moves out of fear for repeating past mistakes will get us no where. Flush with cash maybe, but we'd face the same questions next year - "is this a mistake to spend on X player" only this time it will be for even more money with the cap rising.
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A significant chunk of this team's salary cap is being taken up by players who are no longer on the roster. Again.
What?
Who besides Tate and Zeitler? Their combined dead cap hit is 3% of our salary cap. That's "a significant chunk?" C'mon Eric.
We currently have $10,428,507 in dead money against the 2021 salary cap. That's pretty darn significant.
The Giants spent $170 million on three players this offseason. If any of those three have to be cut, or get injured, we have a huge cap hit that will prevent the team from keeping its own players (see Tomlinson as the latest example).
The counter-argument has always been, "What choice did the Giants have?!"
The did have a choice. They could have chosen not to give huge contracts to Olivier Vernon, Nate Solder, etc., bit the bullet, acquired draft picks (including comp picks), and rebuilt through the draft and cheap free agents.
The Giants are obviously all-in for the upcoming season. The division isn't very good and they know it. But if you look at the schedule, it's a bitch. We play both Super Bowl teams. If the Giants are 10-6, then the fans will be happy. But if this team is 6-10 again?
I needed them to try. I will say it again. We need a pick up after Covid. Maybe it will miss but aren't you excited for the upcoming season. I do see a reasonable scenario where we are a good team in 2021. 2020 felt dead before it started.
You have 7 draft picks per year on average to field a team fans will accept and advertisers will pay for.
Ok now get it done without taking any risks so we can be really happy in the off season
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In comment 15206704 Eric from BBI said:
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A significant chunk of this team's salary cap is being taken up by players who are no longer on the roster. Again.
What?
Who besides Tate and Zeitler? Their combined dead cap hit is 3% of our salary cap. That's "a significant chunk?" C'mon Eric.
We currently have $10,428,507 in dead money against the 2021 salary cap. That's pretty darn significant.
I thought I read recently that the average dead cap by team is like 7-8 million so not too much above that. Now a few years ago when we were eating 20M+ on the OBJ deal, that was rough. However, we knew we weren’t competing at that time and the team clearly viewed the draft picks and Peppers being worth eating dead money for a year or 2.
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are wrong and unfairly stated?
The Giants nailed free agency with the players and the executed contracts and these other executives are just missing it?
I don't think they are missing it, but id be curious to know which Execs it is so we can all look at their resumes.
What they say is fair but atleast from what's posted here, none address that the cap will go back up and these can technically all be discount contracts as soon as 2022.
Should NFL executives provide that level of detail in their analysis?
Their resumes?...just to check to see if they are incompetent NFL executives or figuring out if the have an agenda or reason to badmouth the NY Giants?
These are just comments on how some execs read the NYG deals....they aren't going to give you their detailed analyses. And don't you think these execs have some idea of what they think the cap will do in making the comments they did and suggesting what may be risky.
No draft choices and no contracts. We keep the money.
After all, we would lose 17 games at the most but we would have spent nothing.
The above it true. Is it insightful?
The Giants are obviously all-in for the upcoming season. The division isn't very good and they know it. But if you look at the schedule, it's a bitch. We play both Super Bowl teams. If the Giants are 10-6, then the fans will be happy. But if this team is 6-10 again?
They are 100% all in! To me as a fan that excites me, Judge is making this move because he sees the path to victory. I like the risk taking here under his vision. Let's go win now.
He has upside, so I'm not going to complain about it, but there is a bust factor here, much more so than with KG. Signing AJax is in no way similar to signing Bradberry. Bradberry had missed 3 games in 4 years, and while we can quibble if he was considered elite, he without a doubt was a top 10 CB.
You have 7 draft picks per year on average to field a team fans will accept and advertisers will pay for.
Ok now get it done without taking any risks so we can be really happy in the off season
Don't be a wise ass.
You guys are asking like it is not fair game to criticize the management of a team that can't get out of the basement of the worst division in football.
You don't get better by paying players who haven't had a whiff of the Pro Bowl like they are All-Stars. Everyone around here said signing Nate Solder to that deal was "great" and "fantastic." "They had to do it!"
Go back through the Free Agency Scorecards I've kept for the last decade and look at how much Reese and Gettleman have spent on which free agents. It's not good.
All of these execs are saying is what is obvious. The Giants can't draft and because of that, they have had to overspend every year in free agency. That's not an inaccurate statement. It's the truth.
http://www.bigblueinteractive.com/free-agency/ - ( New Window )
The Giants nailed free agency with the players and the executed contracts and these other executives are just missing it?
But if the cap balloons to $220m next year and $250m the year after that, due to the new TV deal, these contracts are reasonable.
I hope Judge is the right guy too, but Giants fans have embraced this notion that he is the second-coming of Parcells based on another losing season.
The new narrative with Giants fans seems to be, "I don't like Mara. I don't like Gettleman. But I trust Judge and he will fix it!"
Judge still has yet to prove he is the real deal.
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This is a sport with an Average Career of 4 years, an annual injury rate of 25% and therefore takes 25% more players per year over the 53 fixed roster number. Or about 66 players over a year.
You have 7 draft picks per year on average to field a team fans will accept and advertisers will pay for.
Ok now get it done without taking any risks so we can be really happy in the off season
Don't be a wise ass.
You guys are asking like it is not fair game to criticize the management of a team that can't get out of the basement of the worst division in football.
You don't get better by paying players who haven't had a whiff of the Pro Bowl like they are All-Stars. Everyone around here said signing Nate Solder to that deal was "great" and "fantastic." "They had to do it!"
Go back through the Free Agency Scorecards I've kept for the last decade and look at how much Reese and Gettleman have spent on which free agents. It's not good.
All of these execs are saying is what is obvious. The Giants can't draft and because of that, they have had to overspend every year in free agency. That's not an inaccurate statement. It's the truth. http://www.bigblueinteractive.com/free-agency/ - ( New Window )
What is the debate really? 100% they have not drafted well. Yes they overpaid in FA.
To me it's the fact that they didn't want to bargain shop. They got who they wanted because they are focused on winning this year. Sure it may fail, but we have this coach we believe in. You can't wait too long in the NFL. They believe in the QB. He's in his rookie deal. Time to go.
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is that it appears we have a coaching staff that will know what to do with the talent vs. our buddy McAdoo who clearly had zero control of that team based on the boat trip, etc.
I hope Judge is the right guy too, but Giants fans have embraced this notion that he is the second-coming of Parcells based on another losing season.
The new narrative with Giants fans seems to be, "I don't like Mara. I don't like Gettleman. But I trust Judge and he will fix it!"
Judge still has yet to prove he is the real deal.
I agree in that we need to see more. But the second half of last season putting up a 5-3 record with what we had out there on offense in particular gives me hope that Judge is the right guy. This is a big season for him just as much as it is for the players to prove themselves.
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In comment 15206704 Eric from BBI said:
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A significant chunk of this team's salary cap is being taken up by players who are no longer on the roster. Again.
What?
Who besides Tate and Zeitler? Their combined dead cap hit is 3% of our salary cap. That's "a significant chunk?" C'mon Eric.
We currently have $10,428,507 in dead money against the 2021 salary cap. That's pretty darn significant.
It is also right in the middle of dead cap space for all teams. Right in the middle of all teams league wide. Not good but not that bad either.
What is the debate really? 100% they have not drafted well. Yes they overpaid in FA.
To me it's the fact that they didn't want to bargain shop. They got who they wanted because they are focused on winning this year. Sure it may fail, but we have this coach we believe in. You can't wait too long in the NFL. They believe in the QB. He's in his rookie deal. Time to go.
I wasn't excited when we spent all that money on guys like Vernon in 2016 but everyone said how we were going to be great between the media and friends.
In the process, we mortgage our future by tying up Cap dollars that ultimately make it hard to re-sign our players who we know are actually worth it.
I don't want to be annual Off-Season champs - I prefer to let crap organizations like the WTF take those accolades. IMO a year or two of belt tightening and draft pick accumulations makes the most sense.
And, by the way, I'm pretty tired of hearing people say how hard it is to acquire those extra picks by trading down. It happens every single goddamned year - only it's always managed to be done by teams not called the New York Football Giants.
The NFL salary cap is not actually that large when you take into account 53 contracts. So anything above 5 percent is "significant", especially when it is year after year after year:
NYG dead money as a percentage of the cap by year:
2021: 5.6 percent (so far)
2020: 10.8 percent
2019: 28.1 percent
2018: 24.7 percent
So yes, the trend is down, but you can see from 2018 and 2019 that when you screw up in a FA signing, it can crush you like 2018 and 2019.
You are argue 5.6 percent doesn't really matter. It does in that it prevents you from keeping someone like Tomlinson or signing another reasonably priced free agent. It's like interest on debt. It's just wasted money.
WR didn't want to go to Giants...really? Ridiculous
Lets see what players sign for next year....when cap starts to skyrocket
While Lombardi is biased against the organization, he doesn't put his sentences together like the quotes portray. Before slickwilly asks how the fuck I know, I listen to ML quite a lot on Shuffle and VSIN.
They didn't think he was worth that money, and they found a few guys to replace him at a fraction of that cost.
2018 and 2019 happened because the Giants horribly miscalculated on free agents.
The point here by these execs and me is this: "If the Giants have miscalculated again, they are going to be back in the same situation as 2018 and 2019".
Do I think they will? I have no idea. Old Eric would have argued that the Giants are smarter than the other teams and these were great signings.
The Giants no longer receive that kind of trust from me.
They are doing what they did in 2016 this offseason. The argument here seems to be, "2021 is different from 2016 because these players are better fits."
Maybe. Maybe not.
But it's the same strategy. Spend a shit-load of money on 3-4 free agents in one offseason and make a playoff run. The Giants did make the playoffs in 2016. So what?
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In comment 15206682 Jimmy Googs said:
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are wrong and unfairly stated?
The Giants nailed free agency with the players and the executed contracts and these other executives are just missing it?
I don't think they are missing it, but id be curious to know which Execs it is so we can all look at their resumes.
What they say is fair but atleast from what's posted here, none address that the cap will go back up and these can technically all be discount contracts as soon as 2022.
Should NFL executives provide that level of detail in their analysis?
Their resumes?...just to check to see if they are incompetent NFL executives or figuring out if the have an agenda or reason to badmouth the NY Giants?
These are just comments on how some execs read the NYG deals....they aren't going to give you their detailed analyses. And don't you think these execs have some idea of what they think the cap will do in making the comments they did and suggesting what may be risky.
No I don't, they seem to be talking about 2021 only which is my point. They are unnamed and I have no idea who they are, so I think being slightly skeptical is reasonable. And I already said their points are fair so there's really no reason for friction. I think the leaguewide cap decrease in 2021 compared to where it will be in 2022 and beyond is a critical piece of information that they didn't discuss (maybe they did but it isn't in the OP).
The object is to win. You don't get a field goal multiplier for being the team with the least risk.
It's a sport.
"Wtf is Tyree doing in there?"
Perfect example of critique by complaining about risk.
" Just make sure they have to throw it to Manningham "
Some of us have gotten so used to complaining we complain "something could go wrong" as if that truth is useful analysis.
It's also true that if you get out of bed and get hit by lightning walking to your car in the driveway...its on you for taking that risk. Anyone live that way? Then why obssess about the risks needed to win in a sport?
Hell, NE took hell of a risk on one QB for 10 years or more. The risk of severe injury and not winning again against 31 other teams only goes up. Why pay a dime for that? Something could go wrong.
Why station three carriers north of Midway? Something could go wrong.
Why ride a bicycle? Something could go wrong.
Why enter the event Mr Phelps? You could drown.
Why you're a strong 'follow'. If Garrett can just figure out what 'AF' means.......
It's a gamble.
They didn't think he was worth that money, and they found a few guys to replace him at a fraction of that cost.
That remains to be seen if they "replaced" Tomlinson.
I've heard BBIers in recent years say the Giants smartly let other 2nd-round defensive tackles entering their second contract go. And that was not the case.
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the dead cap number did not have any way shape or form effect the Giants ability to resign Dalvin Tomlinson. They could have resigned him, easily actually.
They didn't think he was worth that money, and they found a few guys to replace him at a fraction of that cost.
That remains to be seen if they "replaced" Tomlinson.
I've heard BBIers in recent years say the Giants smartly let other 2nd-round defensive tackles entering their second contract go. And that was not the case.
Have we not done a good job filling Tomlinsons role, historically? Have we done better with that or finding CB's?
Look, I kick Getty in the nuts all the time, because he deserves it mostly, but signing a bunch of FA? No, I'm not kicking his balls for that just yet. The offense was putrid. What did anyone expect Jints Central to do? I think the signings were terrific and yes, they could go sideways, but then again, well... see Bill2s post above.
One thing that did catch my eye was the comment that the Giants have had trouble getting receivers to sign. I wonder if there's anything to that - and I wonder why that would be?
In other words, we've been treading water. We have had to use one of 7 draft picks to replace someone we should have kept and used that pick on another position. It's one of the main reasons why this team never seems to be getting better.
Is Gettleman an upgrade over Reese? The record doesn't suggest that yet.
I am very hopeful about Judge. I have also fallen victim to the narrative that "Judge is really running things and he knows what to do." But what is that based on other than faith and hope? Right now, he's a 6-10 coach with a special teams background. If he goes 10-6 in 2021, the needle will be pointing up on him. If he is 6-10 again, the honeymoon will be over.
Again, you are talking about Jerry Reese. And, we drafted Tomlinson in 2017. He wasn't really replacing anyone. Hankins never really panned out. We should have resigned Joseph but that was 2014.
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We have had to spend 2nd round picks on DTs to fill vacancies created by letting good DTs walk in free agency when they are about to receive their second contract.
Again, you are talking about Jerry Reese. And, we drafted Tomlinson in 2017. He wasn't really replacing anyone. Hankins never really panned out. We should have resigned Joseph but that was 2014.
But Gettleman just did what Reese did. He let up-and-coming 2nd-round DT walk in free agency. Hopefully Shelton can replace him. If he can't, we have another hole to fill. (If we move Dexter over, then we have a hole there).
I wasn't excited when we spent all that money on guys like Vernon in 2016 but everyone said how we were going to be great between the media and friends.
And for all the negative downstream consequences they won 11 games and Eli gave them a chance to knock off Rodgers again on his home turf if anyone had bothered to show up with him.
We all play the cards we get, not the cards we want. For the last 5+ years this organization has been playing the cards of a team who had no good homegrown talent worthy of extensions after their 4th + 5th years. 0 players from the '11, '12, '13 drafts got 2nd contracts here so they had cash to burn in those corresponding future offseasons ('15, '16, '17). The '14, '15, '16, '17 drafts weren't much better and on and on the future FA cycle have continued.
When teams don't have players they drafted worth big money the cards they are holding are weaker and basically force them into the FA market because what's the alternative to getting better players and improving? Not trying is essentially Bill's hypothetical above. Within reason, trying is better than folding imo.
That team could have had a window to do more if they hadn't completely failed to field a competent offensive line the next year as well.
There IS a parallel to 2021. They have lost their most reliable offensive lineman. They did not apparently improve the offensive line that allowed 45 sacks in 2020. The improvement at this point lies in assumed young player growth, and that's something that gets coaches and GMs fired.
If the OL is what holds the team back again, you might get a similar result as the collapse in 2017.
Remember, this is a DT who had twice injured his knees before being drafted and the coached were all in draft rooms at the time.
We respect when BB cuts early rather than late. Tomlinson being "lost" because we dint have cap room is a charge glibly made but possibly not an accurate assessment of the decision at all. We don't know so it's easy to say but impossible to depend on as a debating point.
But did the Giants get better or worse at NT and RG?
And as much as we're talking about Golladay and Jackson, it's the other contracts that are also under the spotlight.
Should the Giants have given Logan Ryan a 3-year, $31 million deal?
Should Leonard Williams have received a 3-year, $63 million deal?
I love Kyle Rudolph. If he is healthy, he could have as much of an impact as Golladay on Daniel Jones. But they gave $12 million to a 31-year old TE who had Lisfranc surgery last week.
Devonte Booker got almost $6 million.
My point here is sometimes we focus on the big contracts, but it the money the Giants give a Toilolo as a 3rd string TE that causes problems.
I'm excited about 2021. But the execs are merely pointing out that the Giants had to spend a ton of money (they've added 15 free agents in the last 3 weeks) because of holes all over the roster. That's not good.
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and the 2016 spending spree they went on and the subsequent years that followed - was that Dave Gettleman and Joe Judge?
Is Gettleman an upgrade over Reese? The record doesn't suggest that yet.
I am very hopeful about Judge. I have also fallen victim to the narrative that "Judge is really running things and he knows what to do." But what is that based on other than faith and hope? Right now, he's a 6-10 coach with a special teams background. If he goes 10-6 in 2021, the needle will be pointing up on him. If he is 6-10 again, the honeymoon will be over.
While I fundamentally agree with this notion, it will continue to be difficult to evaluate any head coach, as long as the drafting and cap management are underwhelming.
It's obvious we cant spend our way out of poor drafting and the truth will come to light(already has IMO). This falls squarely on the GM although many make excuses for DG.
The Giants spent $170 million on three players this offseason. If any of those three have to be cut, or get injured, we have a huge cap hit that will prevent the team from keeping its own players (see Tomlinson as the latest example).
The counter-argument has always been, "What choice did the Giants have?!"
The did have a choice. They could have chosen not to give huge contracts to Olivier Vernon, Nate Solder, etc., bit the bullet, acquired draft picks (including comp picks), and rebuilt through the draft and cheap free agents.
The Giants are obviously all-in for the upcoming season. The division isn't very good and they know it. But if you look at the schedule, it's a bitch. We play both Super Bowl teams. If the Giants are 10-6, then the fans will be happy. But if this team is 6-10 again?
True, but my feeling is that the Giants they are really only at risk for 2022. For example, way the Giants structured the Galloway deal, they can cut him after 2022 with only $10 million. Jackson is similar, he can be cut after 2022 with only $4.5 million dead money. The dead money sucks, but I wouldn't think it's a cap killer like the Solder and Vernon contracts were.
Another consideration is Jones. The Giants need to know if he is a winning starting QB, and soon. They have to decide on exercising his 5th year option after this season. If he can't win in 2021 then at least the Giants will know for certain whether they should continue to invest in him.
That team could have had a window to do more if they hadn't completely failed to field a competent offensive line the next year as well.
There IS a parallel to 2021. They have lost their most reliable offensive lineman. They did not apparently improve the offensive line that allowed 45 sacks in 2020. The improvement at this point lies in assumed young player growth, and that's something that gets coaches and GMs fired.
If the OL is what holds the team back again, you might get a similar result as the collapse in 2017.
Yes and no. It's pretty apparent that the coaches quickly soured on Oliver Vernon and Damon Harrison as they were traded. We all had the feeling that Janoris Jenkins wasn't long for the team either and they just simply cut him. In hindsight, there is no way the team makes those moves again.
2011 draft = 2015/16 FA
2012 draft = 2016/17 FA
2013 draft = 2017/18 FA
2014 draft = 2018/19 FA
2015 draft = 2019/20 FA
2016 draft = 2020/21 FA
2017 draft = 2021/22 FA
You can almost directly trace the Solder signing in 2018 to Pugh (13) and Richburg (14) hitting UFA that same year and not being worth extensions. Same as you can trace all of the Pats spending this year back to their 2016 + 2017 draft classes which were basically trash other than Thuney (who they elected to not pay).
I know I sound argumentative, but you guys are literally making the same arguments you did five years ago.
All I am saying is let's see the results on the field first before we celebrate like Redskins fans winning the Super Bowl in March.
Getting anywhere near .500 would be a great start.
But did the Giants get better or worse at NT and RG?
And as much as we're talking about Golladay and Jackson, it's the other contracts that are also under the spotlight.
Should the Giants have given Logan Ryan a 3-year, $31 million deal?
Should Leonard Williams have received a 3-year, $63 million deal?
I love Kyle Rudolph. If he is healthy, he could have as much of an impact as Golladay on Daniel Jones. But they gave $12 million to a 31-year old TE who had Lisfranc surgery last week.
Devonte Booker got almost $6 million.
My point here is sometimes we focus on the big contracts, but it the money the Giants give a Toilolo as a 3rd string TE that causes problems.
I'm excited about 2021. But the execs are merely pointing out that the Giants had to spend a ton of money (they've added 15 free agents in the last 3 weeks) because of holes all over the roster. That's not good.
Good points.
Bradberry and Jackson are good examples of how badly the Giants have drafted. DG has spent a ton of draft picks on CBs, but still had to sign two expensive FAs. He has also drafted only one (Slayton) WR in three drafts, despite having 12 picks last year. And Slayton was a fifth round pick. He overpaid for Williams, but he was at least our own player who was coming off a monster year. He also couldn't lose both Williams and Tomlinson. His mistake was in underestimating how hard it would be to sign Williams.
I would have been fine keeping Tomlinson instead of Williams, and not signing Golladay or Jackson. Eric is right. At some point, we need to commit to building through the draft not FA, even if that means getting new scouts. That is what good teams like the Ravens do, which is why the consistently get comp picks. Their draft picks become FAs that other teams value and sign. Dallas is now also in that category.
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that dragged a terrible offensive team by the ass to the playoffs.
That team could have had a window to do more if they hadn't completely failed to field a competent offensive line the next year as well.
There IS a parallel to 2021. They have lost their most reliable offensive lineman. They did not apparently improve the offensive line that allowed 45 sacks in 2020. The improvement at this point lies in assumed young player growth, and that's something that gets coaches and GMs fired.
If the OL is what holds the team back again, you might get a similar result as the collapse in 2017.
Yes and no. It's pretty apparent that the coaches quickly soured on Oliver Vernon and Damon Harrison as they were traded. We all had the feeling that Janoris Jenkins wasn't long for the team either and they just simply cut him. In hindsight, there is no way the team makes those moves again.
The coaches didn't quickly sour on them, Reese/Ross/McAdoo quickly got fired and the new regime quickly moved on.
In other words, we've been treading water. We have had to use one of 7 draft picks to replace someone we should have kept and used that pick on another position. It's one of the main reasons why this team never seems to be getting better.
Why is that a bad thing? If we can plug this hole via the draft and keep our cash for harder to fill positions, isn't that ideal?
In a perfect world we aren't dealing with the issues of past players that didn't workout, and their burden to the cap, but since we are to some extent I think i'd rather spend on the harder to fill roles, and use a pick/cheap vet combo to backfill Tomlinsons role.
There's always going to be downside, but the risk here seems pretty minimal.
Bradberry and Jackson are good examples of how badly the Giants have drafted. DG has spent a ton of draft picks on CBs, but still had to sign two expensive FAs. He has also drafted only one (Slayton) WR in three drafts, despite having 12 picks last year. And Slayton was a fifth round pick. He overpaid for Williams, but he was at least our own player who was coming off a monster year. He also couldn't lose both Williams and Tomlinson. His mistake was in underestimating how hard it would be to sign Williams.
I would have been fine keeping Tomlinson instead of Williams, and not signing Golladay or Jackson. Eric is right. At some point, we need to commit to building through the draft not FA, even if that means getting new scouts. That is what good teams like the Ravens do, which is why the consistently get comp picks. Their draft picks become FAs that other teams value and sign. Dallas is now also in that category.
Yup. unless Julian Love pans out, they very recently drafted three defensive backs in one draft with zero impact. That's horrible.
If you draft poorly, you'll need to overcompensate in free agency. The issue with free agency is that these players like Golladay and Jackson don't come without risk and/or "overpaying".
But listen, nobody is killing them for what they did in free agency.. Most understand that this is a team desperately trying to regain their place amongst the best teams in the league. The Giants hold themselves to a high standard. They always have.
What they're getting killed for is their drafting and that falls directly on Dave Gettleman's and Chris Pettit's shoulders.
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In comment 15206701 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15206682 Jimmy Googs said:
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are wrong and unfairly stated?
The Giants nailed free agency with the players and the executed contracts and these other executives are just missing it?
I don't think they are missing it, but id be curious to know which Execs it is so we can all look at their resumes.
What they say is fair but atleast from what's posted here, none address that the cap will go back up and these can technically all be discount contracts as soon as 2022.
Should NFL executives provide that level of detail in their analysis?
Their resumes?...just to check to see if they are incompetent NFL executives or figuring out if the have an agenda or reason to badmouth the NY Giants?
These are just comments on how some execs read the NYG deals....they aren't going to give you their detailed analyses. And don't you think these execs have some idea of what they think the cap will do in making the comments they did and suggesting what may be risky.
No I don't, they seem to be talking about 2021 only which is my point. They are unnamed and I have no idea who they are, so I think being slightly skeptical is reasonable. And I already said their points are fair so there's really no reason for friction. I think the leaguewide cap decrease in 2021 compared to where it will be in 2022 and beyond is a critical piece of information that they didn't discuss (maybe they did but it isn't in the OP).
No friction...just basically saying that if the comments were positive nobody would be asking for resumes. The posters on the thread would be saying "See...other execs know we killed it too!".
And like I said, the comments are from NFL execs so more reasonable to conclude they understand known/unknown cap risks to some extent.
Almost all the multi year contracts are structured to be 2 year rental; you gotta believe a WR, DT, CB and likely OL are high on the draft board this year to be able to flip the 1 and multi year players out, specifically the under performers, ASAP.
Look how BB flips his roster. Hopefully we can develop players other teams want so we can get comp or trade picks the same was as BB.
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He is a run down only player who is being paid $10 million/yr. The Giants replaced him with a run down only player for $1.0 million. Seems shrewd to me.
Would you rather have a run stuffer or athletic CB? That’s rhetorical in today’s NFL.
And escalating salaries are irrelevant. That structure is preferable to bonuses. If they player does not perform, he is cut with limited dead money. Fine by me.
The "irrelevant" argument has been made by BBIers for the past 10 years. The results seem to suggest it may be relevant after all.
A significant chunk of this team's salary cap is being taken up by players who are no longer on the roster. Again.
It’s not irrelevant when there is dead money from unamortized bonuses. It is when you can walk away from a large salary with no cap implications and that is my point. I would prefer to have larger salaries than big signing or roster bonuses, but historically players and agents have pushed back on these structures. They now appear to be more open to them.
So the Giants let the good player walk and cut the player they signed.
Look, not to sound like a dick, but I'm pretty confident I'm on the right side of this argument. If the Giants roster wasn't such a train wreck, we wouldn't be signing all of these free agents. When we started this offseason, this roster wasn't better than when Gettleman got here. You could argue it was worse.
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am cautiously optimistic that Williams, Golladay, and Jackson are different than Vernon, Harrison, and Jenkins, but agree with Eric that spending a lot in FA is usually an indication that a team has drafted poorly.
Bradberry and Jackson are good examples of how badly the Giants have drafted. DG has spent a ton of draft picks on CBs, but still had to sign two expensive FAs. He has also drafted only one (Slayton) WR in three drafts, despite having 12 picks last year. And Slayton was a fifth round pick. He overpaid for Williams, but he was at least our own player who was coming off a monster year. He also couldn't lose both Williams and Tomlinson. His mistake was in underestimating how hard it would be to sign Williams.
I would have been fine keeping Tomlinson instead of Williams, and not signing Golladay or Jackson. Eric is right. At some point, we need to commit to building through the draft not FA, even if that means getting new scouts. That is what good teams like the Ravens do, which is why the consistently get comp picks. Their draft picks become FAs that other teams value and sign. Dallas is now also in that category.
Yup. unless Julian Love pans out, they very recently drafted three defensive backs in one draft with zero impact. That's horrible.
DG CB picks:
Baker: 1,4,5.
Beal: 3.
Love: 4.
Holmes: 4.
Ballentine: 6.
Yiadom: 7 (trade).
Correct, before they signed and while they were Giants. Snacks and Jenkins, in particular.
In 2016 they were applauded (rightfully so). All 3 were borderline all pro.
2017 started out with SB expectations, they started 0-5 with OBJ breaking his leg, and everyone got fired before the season ended after the Eli debacle. Spagnuolo was the head coach for the last 4 games.
So when in that timeline exactly do you think Ben McAdoo and Jerry Reese soured on those guys?
Almost all the multi year contracts are structured to be 2 year rental; you gotta believe a WR, DT, CB and likely OL are high on the draft board this year to be able to flip the 1 and multi year players out, specifically the under performers, ASAP.
Look how BB flips his roster. Hopefully we can develop players other teams want so we can get comp or trade picks the same was as BB.
His father was tired of losing too in the 1970s.
Wellington later admitted (loudly and often) that they made a mistake to stop building through the draft but through trades. He wanted instant improvement instead of doing it the old-fashioned way. Wellington said, "If I had to do it all over again, I would have built through the draft."
John may be going through the same learning process.
So the Giants let the good player walk and cut the player they signed.
Look, not to sound like a dick, but I'm pretty confident I'm on the right side of this argument. If the Giants roster wasn't such a train wreck, we wouldn't be signing all of these free agents. When we started this offseason, this roster wasn't better than when Gettleman got here. You could argue it was worse.
And it wouldn't be a train wreck if we drafted better. We do appear to have had a better draft last year, perhaps because of Judge.
I know I sound argumentative, but you guys are literally making the same arguments you did five years ago.
All I am saying is let's see the results on the field first before we celebrate like Redskins fans winning the Super Bowl in March.
Getting anywhere near .500 would be a great start.
Yeah, I think my view is coming from the expectation that the 2022 cap will be much higher than $180 million, so $15 million dead will be a lower percentage of the cap. Maybe I am being naive though.
I am no DG fan, but I actually think they structured these new deals well, and I like that they are short. They feel different to me from 2016's "swing for the fences, risks be damned" gambles (partcularly Vernon, but also Harrison (5 years for a 28yo DT) and Jenkins (who was very up and down for the Rams before coming to the Giants).
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There were all kinds of reports about personality issues with Snacks, Jenkins, and Olivier.
Correct, before they signed and while they were Giants. Snacks and Jenkins, in particular.
There is a difference between rumors (talk) and what the organization actually believes/does (actions). I don't recall the regime that signed those players had any problems with them while they were here. The problems began surfacing with the new regime as they were trying to change the culture.
What I left unsaid is it just doesn't matter what Golladay and Jackson do in 2021, but what they do in 2022, 2023, and hopefully beyond.
We received immediate satisfaction from those free agents. After the 2016 season was over, despite the bad playoff loss, we were all thrilled with all three players.
BBI was pretty happy when Vernon was traded. Damon was a surprise, but then there were a bunch of media reports about locker room issues (and BBI posters started saying, "I knew there was a problem when he said he didn't want to be considered a team leader!"). Most of BBI was content with Jenkins being waived. (There seemed to be a sense that it was a matter of time before he was gone).
So you are asking when did management go south on these players? Same time that fans did.
Remember, Golladay and Jackson apparently had "baggage" too. Everyone in the media said the Giants needed to meet with him to see if he was a good fit (reminiscent of Plaxico too). Then there was all the suggested stuff on why Jackson was cut (for Jenkins ironically).
Would it be a complete shock in two years if Golladay is cut after being suspended by Judge a couple of times?
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In comment 15206851 Eric from BBI said:
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There were all kinds of reports about personality issues with Snacks, Jenkins, and Olivier.
Correct, before they signed and while they were Giants. Snacks and Jenkins, in particular.
There is a difference between rumors (talk) and what the organization actually believes/does (actions). I don't recall the regime that signed those players had any problems with them while they were here. The problems began surfacing with the new regime as they were trying to change the culture.
I can tell you what I'm saying is accurate and it wasn't rumors, but need to leave it there. Suffice to say not everything gets printed in the media, there's always more info in the background. They did choose to sign them anyway, but old habits returned and out the door they finally went after DG's due diligence determined who were not part of the solution.
You either think Judge is different or you don't. Sure he still has a ton to prove but if you aren't more comfortable with him coaching big ticket FA over McAdoo/Shurmur than I don't know what else to say on it.
IMO Judge mitigates some of the risk, and his staff (particularly on defense) should be able to get more out of these players than in years past.
You either think Judge is different or you don't. Sure he still has a ton to prove but if you aren't more comfortable with him coaching big ticket FA over McAdoo/Shurmur than I don't know what else to say on it.
IMO Judge mitigates some of the risk, and his staff (particularly on defense) should be able to get more out of these players than in years past.
I like Judge, but nobody has a crystal ball here. We all liked the direction of the team after the 2016 season as well. Nobody had doubts if McAdoo could coach veterans post-2016 either. It was only once things broke down in a way nobody saw coming that the leaks in the boat showed.
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In comment 15206840 AcidTest said:
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am cautiously optimistic that Williams, Golladay, and Jackson are different than Vernon, Harrison, and Jenkins, but agree with Eric that spending a lot in FA is usually an indication that a team has drafted poorly.
Bradberry and Jackson are good examples of how badly the Giants have drafted. DG has spent a ton of draft picks on CBs, but still had to sign two expensive FAs. He has also drafted only one (Slayton) WR in three drafts, despite having 12 picks last year. And Slayton was a fifth round pick. He overpaid for Williams, but he was at least our own player who was coming off a monster year. He also couldn't lose both Williams and Tomlinson. His mistake was in underestimating how hard it would be to sign Williams.
I would have been fine keeping Tomlinson instead of Williams, and not signing Golladay or Jackson. Eric is right. At some point, we need to commit to building through the draft not FA, even if that means getting new scouts. That is what good teams like the Ravens do, which is why the consistently get comp picks. Their draft picks become FAs that other teams value and sign. Dallas is now also in that category.
Yup. unless Julian Love pans out, they very recently drafted three defensive backs in one draft with zero impact. That's horrible.
DG CB picks:
Baker: 1,4,5.
Beal: 3.
Love: 4.
Holmes: 4.
Ballentine: 6.
Yiadom: 7 (trade).
That should be a 2, 4, and 5 for Baker.
But yes, the sentiment is correct. Basically and entire draft in 2019 spent on CBs and we only have a backup in Love to show for it.
And a hefty price tag for Bradberry and now Jackson to "re-do" what all those draft picks were supposed to do.
So the Giants let the good player walk and cut the player they signed.
Look, not to sound like a dick, but I'm pretty confident I'm on the right side of this argument. If the Giants roster wasn't such a train wreck, we wouldn't be signing all of these free agents. When we started this offseason, this roster wasn't better than when Gettleman got here. You could argue it was worse.
There is no doubt the Giants have drafted poorly and that’s why they are in this mess. But you can deal with the salary cap implications by structuring contracts that don’t bite you 3 years later and by chasing over rated free agents based on need (did anyone really think Solder was that good?) and giving them large signing bonuses that are amortized over 5 yrs.
And as for 2nd round tackles, other than Linval Joseph in 2010, who else has left to go on to have a good career post Giants?
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our coaching staff bears a lot of that blame. If Judge was the coach in 2016 do you think half the stuff with that FA class, Beckham, etc still happen?
You either think Judge is different or you don't. Sure he still has a ton to prove but if you aren't more comfortable with him coaching big ticket FA over McAdoo/Shurmur than I don't know what else to say on it.
IMO Judge mitigates some of the risk, and his staff (particularly on defense) should be able to get more out of these players than in years past.
I like Judge, but nobody has a crystal ball here. We all liked the direction of the team after the 2016 season as well. Nobody had doubts if McAdoo could coach veterans post-2016 either. It was only once things broke down in a way nobody saw coming that the leaks in the boat showed.
There would NOT have been a boat trip a week before a playoff if Judge was here. That’s was the beginning of the end for me with Duke McAdoo
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our coaching staff bears a lot of that blame. If Judge was the coach in 2016 do you think half the stuff with that FA class, Beckham, etc still happen?
You either think Judge is different or you don't. Sure he still has a ton to prove but if you aren't more comfortable with him coaching big ticket FA over McAdoo/Shurmur than I don't know what else to say on it.
IMO Judge mitigates some of the risk, and his staff (particularly on defense) should be able to get more out of these players than in years past.
I like Judge, but nobody has a crystal ball here. We all liked the direction of the team after the 2016 season as well. Nobody had doubts if McAdoo could coach veterans post-2016 either. It was only once things broke down in a way nobody saw coming that the leaks in the boat showed.
Well, ever think why it broke down? Not sure I agree that no one saw it coming either - the 2016 season still had a woeful offense that McAdoo couldn't fix, which is why he was brought here in the first place.
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Because they have let the solid DT walk (proven by the fact that that player went onto have a successful career with the other team) while the free agent the Giants signed is often off of the team in a couple of years.
So the Giants let the good player walk and cut the player they signed.
Look, not to sound like a dick, but I'm pretty confident I'm on the right side of this argument. If the Giants roster wasn't such a train wreck, we wouldn't be signing all of these free agents. When we started this offseason, this roster wasn't better than when Gettleman got here. You could argue it was worse.
There is no doubt the Giants have drafted poorly and that’s why they are in this mess. But you can deal with the salary cap implications by structuring contracts that don’t bite you 3 years later and by chasing over rated free agents based on need (did anyone really think Solder was that good?) and giving them large signing bonuses that are amortized over 5 yrs.
And as for 2nd round tackles, other than Linval Joseph in 2010, who else has left to go on to have a good career post Giants?
Linval Joseph leaves and they draft Marvin Austin in the 2nd round (not much of a career). So they draft Jonathan Hankins in the 2nd round (went onto become a full-time starter with Colts and Raiders). So they fill his spot with Snacks Harrison. Snacks gets traded and then draft Dexter Lawrence the following offseason (the immediate assumption was he would replace Snacks, but Tomlinson took over the NT position).
You're a homer. You are always going to twist things like that. There have been many positive posts on here with FA. I hear very few killing the Giants this offseason for their FA moves.
But keep exaggerating as you normally do. That's you schtick. For me - one who despises Gettleman- I'm fine with what he's done in FA. But now they better win enough.
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In comment 15206859 Eric from BBI said:
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Because they have let the solid DT walk (proven by the fact that that player went onto have a successful career with the other team) while the free agent the Giants signed is often off of the team in a couple of years.
So the Giants let the good player walk and cut the player they signed.
Look, not to sound like a dick, but I'm pretty confident I'm on the right side of this argument. If the Giants roster wasn't such a train wreck, we wouldn't be signing all of these free agents. When we started this offseason, this roster wasn't better than when Gettleman got here. You could argue it was worse.
There is no doubt the Giants have drafted poorly and that’s why they are in this mess. But you can deal with the salary cap implications by structuring contracts that don’t bite you 3 years later and by chasing over rated free agents based on need (did anyone really think Solder was that good?) and giving them large signing bonuses that are amortized over 5 yrs.
And as for 2nd round tackles, other than Linval Joseph in 2010, who else has left to go on to have a good career post Giants?
Linval Joseph leaves and they draft Marvin Austin in the 2nd round (not much of a career). So they draft Jonathan Hankins in the 2nd round (went onto become a full-time starter with Colts and Raiders). So they fill his spot with Snacks Harrison. Snacks gets traded and then draft Dexter Lawrence the following offseason (the immediate assumption was he would replace Snacks, but Tomlinson took over the NT position).
Only slight correction is that they Drafted Hankins before they let Joseph walk. Hankins played well his rookie year next to Joseph in 2013; the Giants were top 10 in run defense, Y/A.
Then they let Joseph walk, Hankins played poorly and the Giants had the WORST rushing defense Y/A in the league.
Oh, also should mention the genius signing of Jay Bromley in the 2014 third round.
Im not against any of the big 3 signings, but do feel Jackson is the biggest gamble. He essentially got a deal just less then we gave Bradberry last year.
I have more concerns with Jackson hitting that level of play then I did of Bradberry but they obvioualy valued him just about the same as they did with Bradberry.
We can barely afford to be wrong on 1 of these contracts but we need plus value on at least 2 of them.
What I left unsaid is it just doesn't matter what Golladay and Jackson do in 2021, but what they do in 2022, 2023, and hopefully beyond.
We received immediate satisfaction from those free agents. After the 2016 season was over, despite the bad playoff loss, we were all thrilled with all three players.
BBI was pretty happy when Vernon was traded. Damon was a surprise, but then there were a bunch of media reports about locker room issues (and BBI posters started saying, "I knew there was a problem when he said he didn't want to be considered a team leader!"). Most of BBI was content with Jenkins being waived. (There seemed to be a sense that it was a matter of time before he was gone).
So you are asking when did management go south on these players? Same time that fans did.
Remember, Golladay and Jackson apparently had "baggage" too. Everyone in the media said the Giants needed to meet with him to see if he was a good fit (reminiscent of Plaxico too). Then there was all the suggested stuff on why Jackson was cut (for Jenkins ironically).
Would it be a complete shock in two years if Golladay is cut after being suspended by Judge a couple of times?
I was upset when Jenkins got cut. I thought that when he was on the field he was still doing okay (also relative to who else we had for DB). I was upset he got cut for non-performance-based reasons.
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In comment 15206886 UConn4523 said:
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our coaching staff bears a lot of that blame. If Judge was the coach in 2016 do you think half the stuff with that FA class, Beckham, etc still happen?
You either think Judge is different or you don't. Sure he still has a ton to prove but if you aren't more comfortable with him coaching big ticket FA over McAdoo/Shurmur than I don't know what else to say on it.
IMO Judge mitigates some of the risk, and his staff (particularly on defense) should be able to get more out of these players than in years past.
I like Judge, but nobody has a crystal ball here. We all liked the direction of the team after the 2016 season as well. Nobody had doubts if McAdoo could coach veterans post-2016 either. It was only once things broke down in a way nobody saw coming that the leaks in the boat showed.
Well, ever think why it broke down? Not sure I agree that no one saw it coming either - the 2016 season still had a woeful offense that McAdoo couldn't fix, which is why he was brought here in the first place.
Well, yes, everyone was crying about the offensive line. It had been a problem since 2013. Yes, it was why the offense was bad. It was a lack of talent issue. If someone expected it to go away by hiring a head coach, that's just misguided.
I sensed that, too...
Instead we have players that seem like they actually want to play for Judge, despite hearing the contract last summer when the local beats expressed player disdain for running laps.
I think McAdoo let bad situations get worse and isn't HC material Shumur even worse.
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of the success this current regime has had...
I sensed that, too...
I haven't read every post here but i'll repeat for the 3rd time now what i've said, their stance is reasonable. However they left out a lot of critical information from their critique, and if in the full interview or whatever format this was, they continued to leave it out, then yes I do question them.
Is that fair or no?
But his best work has been in the free agency window. So might as well keep going to the well. Especially this year when so much is at stake with Jones's development as the potential long term QB solution. This is such a critical year...
I would have spent more wisely on different players, but you just had to eliminate all of the excuses for Jones; and try to buy your way to a conclusion on him.
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The new HC evaluated the talent, or lack thereof, in his vision for the team. They had to overpay for the talent available, especially for WR that don’t want to come to the NYG; then also is the premium they have to pay for the NY/NJ tax structure vs. a FL. or TX.
Almost all the multi year contracts are structured to be 2 year rental; you gotta believe a WR, DT, CB and likely OL are high on the draft board this year to be able to flip the 1 and multi year players out, specifically the under performers, ASAP.
Look how BB flips his roster. Hopefully we can develop players other teams want so we can get comp or trade picks the same was as BB.
His father was tired of losing too in the 1970s.
Wellington later admitted (loudly and often) that they made a mistake to stop building through the draft but through trades. He wanted instant improvement instead of doing it the old-fashioned way. Wellington said, "If I had to do it all over again, I would have built through the draft."
John may be going through the same learning process.
Great. Did George Young have any kids?
The Giants just did what we used to mock the Washington and the Philly "Dream Team" for doing.
This approach works if you've got Tom Brady behind a great line in Tampa. If you've got Daniel Jones behind a paper thin line with a running back that doesn't block...
Almost all the multi year contracts are structured to be 2 year rental; you gotta believe a WR, DT, CB and likely OL are high on the draft board this year to be able to flip the 1 and multi year players out, specifically the under performers, ASAP.
Look how BB flips his roster. Hopefully we can develop players other teams want so we can get comp or trade picks the same was as BB.
Good post.
But, they have to perform. If they don't then those were bad signings regardless of what they got paid.
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In comment 15206634 Jimmy Googs said:
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of the success this current regime has had...
I sensed that, too...
I haven't read every post here but i'll repeat for the 3rd time now what i've said, their stance is reasonable. However they left out a lot of critical information from their critique, and if in the full interview or whatever format this was, they continued to leave it out, then yes I do question them.
Is that fair or no?
It's fine Uconn. I read your posts all three times. At least you stepped up more than anyone else here...
Okay. I thought it might have been a Jones thing.
Risk is health. But that can be laid upon for other guys too, without the history of context behind it. Snacks was breaking down after 2016 - the appropriate move was to move him. The issue was his contract Reese and Co gave to him. Same for Vernon. He was never injured prior to joining the Giants yet, we saw it. Again, another albatross of a contract. These were longer deals especially JPP's and injuries paid a massive structure how they ended out.
IF Jackson and Golladay cannot stay healthy, yes, I'd agree they can be in trouble. The other moves like Rudolph and Booker hardly affect the future capital. Short term fixes that were necessary because of previous draft choices were unable to fill that gap how the (current) coaches wanted it to be.
It all comes down to coaching and health.
I *think* Judge is a better leader than Shurmur and McAdoo. Maybe he's not, and this year should be really telling. If Judge is the well prepared, emotionally intelligent, and accountable coach he appeared to be last year, the Giants are in good hands.
The factor you can't control is health. I get a little itchy about Jackson, Rudolph, and Golladay's hip (or heart).
A lot is made of Williams's durability as a testament to the investment. It's got to work both ways for the news guys too.
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In comment 15206802 Eric from BBI said:
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We have had to spend 2nd round picks on DTs to fill vacancies created by letting good DTs walk in free agency when they are about to receive their second contract.
Again, you are talking about Jerry Reese. And, we drafted Tomlinson in 2017. He wasn't really replacing anyone. Hankins never really panned out. We should have resigned Joseph but that was 2014.
But Gettleman just did what Reese did. He let up-and-coming 2nd-round DT walk in free agency. Hopefully Shelton can replace him. If he can't, we have another hole to fill. (If we move Dexter over, then we have a hole there).
I don't see a big difference in giving a guy a second contact and paying a FA that is getting his second contact. They both get market value money. This idea that you are getting a discount on a second contact is a falsehood.
We reallocate money from the dline, where we had depth, to cb. Nothing wrong with that.
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In comment 15206634 Jimmy Googs said:
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of the success this current regime has had...
I sensed that, too...
I haven't read every post here but i'll repeat for the 3rd time now what i've said, their stance is reasonable. However they left out a lot of critical information from their critique, and if in the full interview or whatever format this was, they continued to leave it out, then yes I do question them.
Is that fair or no?
I was really just adding sarcasm on top of Googs's sarcasm...
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players preferring to sign with winning teams.
Okay. I thought it might have been a Jones thing.
Jon, who's turned us down?
New York Giants Player Salaries - ( New Window )
agreed but the giants really have a low cost QB and a low cost o-line...two of most expensive positions in the NFL. I think the time to strike was now to see if DJ is the guy and make a legit playoff run or they will be rebuilding in a year or two anyway with another rookie QB if Jones isn't the guy to lead them to the playoffs.
The biggest risk I see is JJ and DG banking on the young offensive line. If it works out they will be labeled geniuses...if it tanks our season and DJ is running for his life and we can't establish the run...then it will completely backfire.
I think our passing game will be good and our defense (assuming we get one edge guy in the draft) should be easily a top 5-10 caliber defense with us having arguably the best secondary in the NFL.
but the problem is jones (who i don't think is the goods). they've bungled this roster so badly for so long that they felt like they needed to spend a shit ton before this team was ready to compete to properly evaluate jones. and i'll argue they haven't even done that properly with this crap line they have in front of him. and make no mistake it is a crap line.
i don't get the love for adoree jackson. yes he's better than what we've had, but i don't know if he's 13M a year good. especially in a good CB draft w Surtain and Horn.
this management does not deserve the benefit of the doubt when it comes to anything. they have not earned it. a lot of these guys they signed have injury history too. it's a very risky move this offseason, and you don't see many team do well using this approach.
Linval Joseph leaves and they draft Marvin Austin in the 2nd round (not much of a career). So they draft Jonathan Hankins in the 2nd round (went onto become a full-time starter with Colts and Raiders). So they fill his spot with Snacks Harrison. Snacks gets traded and then draft Dexter Lawrence the following offseason (the immediate assumption was he would replace Snacks, but Tomlinson took over the NT position).
Wasn't the decision to fire Reese made 3 years ago?
It all comes down to coaching and health.
I *think* Judge is a better leader than Shurmur and McAdoo. Maybe he's not, and this year should be really telling. If Judge is the well prepared, emotionally intelligent, and accountable coach he appeared to be last year, the Giants are in good hands.
The factor you can't control is health. I get a little itchy about Jackson, Rudolph, and Golladay's hip (or heart).
A lot is made of Williams's durability as a testament to the investment. It's got to work both ways for the news guys too.
Exactly right. The difference this year is gambling on guys without clean injury histories. That's the gamble. Not the utilization of free agency writ large as a tool to improve the roster.
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In comment 15206859 Eric from BBI said:
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Because they have let the solid DT walk (proven by the fact that that player went onto have a successful career with the other team) while the free agent the Giants signed is often off of the team in a couple of years.
So the Giants let the good player walk and cut the player they signed.
Look, not to sound like a dick, but I'm pretty confident I'm on the right side of this argument. If the Giants roster wasn't such a train wreck, we wouldn't be signing all of these free agents. When we started this offseason, this roster wasn't better than when Gettleman got here. You could argue it was worse.
There is no doubt the Giants have drafted poorly and that’s why they are in this mess. But you can deal with the salary cap implications by structuring contracts that don’t bite you 3 years later and by chasing over rated free agents based on need (did anyone really think Solder was that good?) and giving them large signing bonuses that are amortized over 5 yrs.
And as for 2nd round tackles, other than Linval Joseph in 2010, who else has left to go on to have a good career post Giants?
Linval Joseph leaves and they draft Marvin Austin in the 2nd round (not much of a career). So they draft Jonathan Hankins in the 2nd round (went onto become a full-time starter with Colts and Raiders). So they fill his spot with Snacks Harrison. Snacks gets traded and then draft Dexter Lawrence the following offseason (the immediate assumption was he would replace Snacks, but Tomlinson took over the NT position).
this has been their problem for 15 years. they can't fix positions. the teams spends draft picks and free agent dollars (significant picks and significant dollars) to fix the CB position and OL position and they never get fixed. and because of this they can't improve other positions and depth because every year they have to spend more picks or more money on the positions they can't fix
That's exactly what I think as well -- they are signing players who they evaluate as possessing various traits, and are confident in their coaches' ability to maximize those traits.
In years past I'd have been very skeptical of that, but not with Judge running the show.
this has been their problem for 15 years. they can't fix positions. the teams spends draft picks and free agent dollars (significant picks and significant dollars) to fix the CB position and OL position and they never get fixed. and because of this they can't improve other positions and depth because every year they have to spend more picks or more money on the positions they can't fix
Do you think it looked like they started to fix each of the 3 levels of the defense last year? and the OL over the back half of the year?
With the youngest starting 22 in the NFL and a first year coaching staff there are reasons to believe they are starting to fix things (and bringing things home to this thread the veteran acquisitions of Bradberry, Williams, Ryan, Martinez, Peppers were all a big part of that improvement).
Again, there's risk associated to this, but CB2 has been a glaring weakness for a while now and I'm happy we upgraded. If Shelton is merely adequate than it was worth it, IMO.
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this has been their problem for 15 years. they can't fix positions. the teams spends draft picks and free agent dollars (significant picks and significant dollars) to fix the CB position and OL position and they never get fixed. and because of this they can't improve other positions and depth because every year they have to spend more picks or more money on the positions they can't fix
Do you think it looked like they started to fix each of the 3 levels of the defense last year? and the OL over the back half of the year?
With the youngest starting 22 in the NFL and a first year coaching staff there are reasons to believe they are starting to fix things (and bringing things home to this thread the veteran acquisitions of Bradberry, Williams, Ryan, Martinez, Peppers were all a big part of that improvement).
CB was not fixed. they had 1 CB who can play. this after using a shit ton of picks, including a first rounder on baker. OL was not fixed despite paying a shit ton for solder and zeitler, using a first on thomas, and a second on hernandez
This spending spree will answer both hopefully.
This spending spree will answer both hopefully.
i don't know if it will because they are still stuck with the clapper
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In comment 15207017 GiantsFan84 said:
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this has been their problem for 15 years. they can't fix positions. the teams spends draft picks and free agent dollars (significant picks and significant dollars) to fix the CB position and OL position and they never get fixed. and because of this they can't improve other positions and depth because every year they have to spend more picks or more money on the positions they can't fix
Do you think it looked like they started to fix each of the 3 levels of the defense last year? and the OL over the back half of the year?
With the youngest starting 22 in the NFL and a first year coaching staff there are reasons to believe they are starting to fix things (and bringing things home to this thread the veteran acquisitions of Bradberry, Williams, Ryan, Martinez, Peppers were all a big part of that improvement).
CB was not fixed. they had 1 CB who can play. this after using a shit ton of picks, including a first rounder on baker. OL was not fixed despite paying a shit ton for solder and zeitler, using a first on thomas, and a second on hernandez
"fixed" is a misnomer. Was there improvement?
This spending spree will answer both hopefully.
Or it at least helps increase the probability of both continuing to improve as opposed to regressing.
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In comment 15207023 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15207017 GiantsFan84 said:
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this has been their problem for 15 years. they can't fix positions. the teams spends draft picks and free agent dollars (significant picks and significant dollars) to fix the CB position and OL position and they never get fixed. and because of this they can't improve other positions and depth because every year they have to spend more picks or more money on the positions they can't fix
Do you think it looked like they started to fix each of the 3 levels of the defense last year? and the OL over the back half of the year?
With the youngest starting 22 in the NFL and a first year coaching staff there are reasons to believe they are starting to fix things (and bringing things home to this thread the veteran acquisitions of Bradberry, Williams, Ryan, Martinez, Peppers were all a big part of that improvement).
CB was not fixed. they had 1 CB who can play. this after using a shit ton of picks, including a first rounder on baker. OL was not fixed despite paying a shit ton for solder and zeitler, using a first on thomas, and a second on hernandez
"fixed" is a misnomer. Was there improvement?
i will repeat they had 1 CB that can play last year. CB was so bad they felt the need to go out and pay jackson 13M a year
do you understand how many resources they've spent on this secondary?
2 starting CBs are making 13M and 15M (both free agent signings). ryan is making 10M (free agent signing). peppers was a centerpiece in the OBJ trade. mckinney a HIGH 2nd round pick. and this is on top of the failed picks of baker, beal, love, ballentine, holmes is TBD, yiadom cost a 7th i believe. that is an enormous amount of resources.
and as for the OL i'd say it's as bad now as its ever been
From a pure market standpoint I like free agency more. The player has a body of work in the NFL you can judge, and you have as good of opportunity as anyone to sign the player.
I don't think there's anything inherently that beneficial in re-signing your own player, that outweighs finding the right talent and need in the open market.
Sure DG has made other mistakes, but if you want to rebuild through the draft you need to have more picks given injuries and busts.
I don't think that mistake will happen again. I don't think as much power sits with DG anymore.
do you understand how many resources they've spent on this secondary?
Do you understand the resource trends with investment in DBs? Do you know how much Miami has invested in their DBs? Or the Ravens? Or the Pats? (hint: more than the NYG).
In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:
and as for the OL i'd say it's as bad now as its ever been
Don't agree on that but you are free to your opinion. Last year over the second half of the year with 2 currently unsigned backup RBs they set a franchise record for the most consecutive games with 100+ yards rushing.
This team desperately needed a legit NFL starting caliber CB2 and they overpaid to get it. Hopefully Jackson stays healthy and delivers.
all the free agents in the world won't get this ship turned around.
We need more hits than misses, and we need that for several consecutive Drafts.
Otherwise, 2014 to 2030 will look just like 1964 to 1980.
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do you understand how many resources they've spent on this secondary?
Do you understand the resource trends with investment in DBs? Do you know how much Miami has invested in their DBs? Or the Ravens? Or the Pats? (hint: more than the NYG).
In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:
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and as for the OL i'd say it's as bad now as its ever been
Don't agree on that but you are free to your opinion. Last year over the second half of the year with 2 currently unsigned backup RBs they set a franchise record for the most consecutive games with 100+ yards rushing.
i don't want this to come across like i'm arguing with you because i'm not.
but how was the pass blocking during that stretch? who on this line right now is any good outside of thomas and gates? and that line had zeitler who is no longer on the team and was arguably their best lineman. i do not consider that improvement
If, in fact, the risk is significant, then the NFL execs are right and the Giants are "stupid."
Are the Giants stupid? Maybe. It depends on the reliability of the medical exams given to the free agents before the the Giants signed them.
If the medical exams confirm that the injuries causing the missed games in 2020 are no longer problems for 2021, then fine. If the Giants can't reliably confirm the health status of their three top free agents, then shame on them.
i've said on this and other threads what i would have done. i would have accepted that the team is rebuilding and it would take another couple seasons of gradual improvement primarily through the draft. i would have wrote jones off as a bad pick and worked on improving the remaining part of the roster with the draft. i would have already extended peppers.
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In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:
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do you understand how many resources they've spent on this secondary?
Do you understand the resource trends with investment in DBs? Do you know how much Miami has invested in their DBs? Or the Ravens? Or the Pats? (hint: more than the NYG).
In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:
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and as for the OL i'd say it's as bad now as its ever been
Don't agree on that but you are free to your opinion. Last year over the second half of the year with 2 currently unsigned backup RBs they set a franchise record for the most consecutive games with 100+ yards rushing.
i don't want this to come across like i'm arguing with you because i'm not.
but how was the pass blocking during that stretch? who on this line right now is any good outside of thomas and gates? and that line had zeitler who is no longer on the team and was arguably their best lineman. i do not consider that improvement
on the whole pressure rate went down as did turnovers. They had a few poor games against strong teams when Jones was hurt (AZ, CLE, BAL) and OL statistics aren't example easy to analyze but the back half of the year I believe was statistically a big improvement from the front half. And a big reason why they went 5-3 in their last 8.
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just don't pretend that 10M of dead cap space is significant. It's not, and it's a dumb argument to be honest.
The NFL salary cap is not actually that large when you take into account 53 contracts. So anything above 5 percent is "significant", especially when it is year after year after year:
NYG dead money as a percentage of the cap by year:
2021: 5.6 percent (so far)
2020: 10.8 percent
2019: 28.1 percent
2018: 24.7 percent
So yes, the trend is down, but you can see from 2018 and 2019 that when you screw up in a FA signing, it can crush you like 2018 and 2019.
You are argue 5.6 percent doesn't really matter. It does in that it prevents you from keeping someone like Tomlinson or signing another reasonably priced free agent. It's like interest on debt. It's just wasted money.
I would argue that the degree to which it matters depends on a combination with other factors that determine whether or not you are a good team. For example, 10 million dollars in dead money probably means nothing to a relatively stacked team that annually makes the playoffs. But that amount of money could be both a problem and a symptom of larger issues to a team that is or has been routinely bad, such as ours.
I wouldn't have paid that kind of money for Golladay and Jackson, who combined started 7 games last year.
I'd have paid Williams and Tomlinson, and focused the remainder of FA on the Ross/Shelton/Ragland/Odenigbo type signings...short deals for small dollars. One exception though...I would have gone a different route at backup QB. I'd have targeted Brissett or Tyrod Taylor. Both are more expensive than Glennon, but it's still a drop in the bucket to what Golladay and Jackson got. Signing Glennon tells me:
- They don't want to make Jones uncomfortable
- The Jones injury freaked them out, and he's going to be used less as a runner in 2021
I do agree with cosmicj above that Jones is unlikely to see a second contract here, and thus the Golladay and Jackson expenditures won't be too painful on the cap long term.
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In comment 15207052 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:
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do you understand how many resources they've spent on this secondary?
Do you understand the resource trends with investment in DBs? Do you know how much Miami has invested in their DBs? Or the Ravens? Or the Pats? (hint: more than the NYG).
In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:
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and as for the OL i'd say it's as bad now as its ever been
Don't agree on that but you are free to your opinion. Last year over the second half of the year with 2 currently unsigned backup RBs they set a franchise record for the most consecutive games with 100+ yards rushing.
i don't want this to come across like i'm arguing with you because i'm not.
but how was the pass blocking during that stretch? who on this line right now is any good outside of thomas and gates? and that line had zeitler who is no longer on the team and was arguably their best lineman. i do not consider that improvement
on the whole pressure rate went down as did turnovers. They had a few poor games against strong teams when Jones was hurt (AZ, CLE, BAL) and OL statistics aren't example easy to analyze but the back half of the year I believe was statistically a big improvement from the front half. And a big reason why they went 5-3 in their last 8.
they went 5-3 because of the following
eagles (horrible team)
bengals (backup QB and barely won)
cowboys (backup QB and barely won)
wft (kyle allen QB got injured in the beginning of the game)
seahawks - a very good win
The Giants roster needed significant upgrades to be competitive. Regardless of the cause, that is where they were. They gambled on these guys being a big piece of that solution. Like everything else, it will be brilliant if it works and stupid if it doesn't. I don't know that I would have done anything differently if I was trying to snap out of a very long streak of not being competitive.
But to think someone must have a bias if they don't like signing Adoree Jackson to a significant raise after his current team just cut him to avoid paying him $10M is a bit silly.
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what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...
I wouldn't have paid that kind of money for Golladay and Jackson, who combined started 7 games last year.
I'd have paid Williams and Tomlinson, and focused the remainder of FA on the Ross/Shelton/Ragland/Odenigbo type signings...short deals for small dollars. One exception though...I would have gone a different route at backup QB. I'd have targeted Brissett or Tyrod Taylor. Both are more expensive than Glennon, but it's still a drop in the bucket to what Golladay and Jackson got. Signing Glennon tells me:
- They don't want to make Jones uncomfortable
- The Jones injury freaked them out, and he's going to be used less as a runner in 2021
I do agree with cosmicj above that Jones is unlikely to see a second contract here, and thus the Golladay and Jackson expenditures won't be too painful on the cap long term.
All fair, I would have been on board as well. Truth is I didn't want Golladay at that price but, and its a big but, I expect all FA prices to go up next year so i'm curious what his contract will look like compared to next years market.
I tend agree the Giants probably went overboard on FA spending and there is inherent risk in giving any player with injury history more money than their original team would offer them. However, the Giants will still have Jones on cheap rookie deal through 2023. All of the FA signings with the exception of KG expire in 2023. While we may not get the wins we expected out of the FA signings we hope for, I think the Giants are set up to take full advantage of Jones' rookie deal window in terms of surrounding him with talent. If not now, when?
they went 5-3 because of the following
eagles (horrible team)
bengals (backup QB and barely won)
cowboys (backup QB and barely won)
wft (kyle allen QB got injured in the beginning of the game)
seahawks - a very good win
either wins are wins and losses are losses or that game both ways. the week prior to the PHI win they played TB down to the last play of the game.
And the backup QB stuff is a little silly since they were playing with Colt McCoy in a bunch of those games. For all the hyperbole about his performance last year he threw 1 touchdown.
This team desperately needed a legit NFL starting caliber CB2 and they overpaid to get it. Hopefully Jackson stays healthy and delivers.
Jackson is a high risk/reward investment. If you know anything about my opinions, I am pro secondary and think it's the area to virtually always invest.
This is the one investment where I'm nervous.
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Seems to be the only one that the execs are confused about and I can see that. The Giants paid him A LOT of money despite his injuries and inconsistency. The talent is there and he has shown elite coverage potential at times but 2020 wasn’t a good year for him and then he got cut.
This team desperately needed a legit NFL starting caliber CB2 and they overpaid to get it. Hopefully Jackson stays healthy and delivers.
Jackson is a high risk/reward investment. If you know anything about my opinions, I am pro secondary and think it's the area to virtually always invest.
This is the one investment where I'm nervous.
I agree. I'd have preferred a 1 year deal for Malcolm Butler (or another veteran) to both mitigate risk and have more money to spend elsewhere (then reinvest that $ in Trai Turner or Tomlinson maybe).
I can see the potential upside in a highly talented young player at a premium position with a lot more speed though. It just seems odd TEN would give up on him the way they did. Though I guess the Bears did the same with Floyd last year.
If kept the relative same basics then would have only spent up to what was available without restructuring any current deals and toned down the salary escalators in some others. This probably means losing either Golladay or Jackson as the result of that, but so be it.
If didn't keep the same basics:
- Would not have given Williams any deal once it hit $20M/year. Tag and trade if able. If not walk away and
would have then gotten a deal done with Tomlinson.
- Would not have done Golladay deal. Would have focused dollars on younger TE (Hunter most attractive) versus Rudolph. Would have traded or cut Engram.
- Would have used higher dollars to add something into the interior OL. Guard or Center (if Center, then moved Gates to RG).
- Would not have bothered with Booker & Toilolo deals.
- If the above allows for Jackson deal then okay. This was an odd one though for certain.
- Focus of Day 1 and Day 2 of Draft: WR, OL & TE
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what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...
i've said on this and other threads what i would have done. i would have accepted that the team is rebuilding and it would take another couple seasons of gradual improvement primarily through the draft. i would have wrote jones off as a bad pick and worked on improving the remaining part of the roster with the draft. i would have already extended peppers.
LOL. So, you would extend Peppers based on one year but written off Jones as a failed pick? I'm really fucking glad you aren't making the moves.
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In comment 15207067 UConn4523 said:
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what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...
i've said on this and other threads what i would have done. i would have accepted that the team is rebuilding and it would take another couple seasons of gradual improvement primarily through the draft. i would have wrote jones off as a bad pick and worked on improving the remaining part of the roster with the draft. i would have already extended peppers.
LOL. So, you would extend Peppers based on one year but written off Jones as a failed pick? I'm really fucking glad you aren't making the moves.
how'd not extending williams work out? i'd either extend peppers (my preference) or trade him
and yes about jones. i think he stinks
What's Peppers' extension look like?
That's one of Gettleman's failings - he falls in full bloom love and it makes him do stupid things.
Injury prone is a problem....but was Galloday injury prone....or just injured?
Mara played it cool....but he knows where the cap is going
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In comment 15207075 GiantsFan84 said:
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In comment 15207067 UConn4523 said:
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what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...
i've said on this and other threads what i would have done. i would have accepted that the team is rebuilding and it would take another couple seasons of gradual improvement primarily through the draft. i would have wrote jones off as a bad pick and worked on improving the remaining part of the roster with the draft. i would have already extended peppers.
LOL. So, you would extend Peppers based on one year but written off Jones as a failed pick? I'm really fucking glad you aren't making the moves.
how'd not extending williams work out? i'd either extend peppers (my preference) or trade him
and yes about jones. i think he stinks
just stop watching the giants for about 5 yrs if you think Jones stinks because thats how long it will take to fix that problem. Glad you're still holding on to that pre-draft narrative on Jones.
That being said, it is important that we look at these risks accurately. And they have been hamstrung by dead cap space too much recently, they've built too much through FA recently and it hasn't really worked. Far too often it seems like people's own optimism about the team and the moves turns into them remembering moves as less risky than they actually were. Or better decisions than they actually were.
While we have greatly increased our chances this year if Jones and Barkley are not ready to step up to their draft status the we aren't really in the best position to have a winning team because we have essentially overspent on supporting players meaning to win with this core we need players to be both elite and cheap which you don't put yourself in great position to get if you spend excessively to be mediocre...
The 2018-2020 drafts will be bigger drivers of team success than this off-season, though.
I think the Giants, for the first time under Gettleman, have built a roster with playoff potential (and not bullshit NFC East playoff potential). I wouldn't bet they'd get there, but I can see a path to a ten win team.
I *think* Judge is a better leader than Shurmur and McAdoo. Maybe he's not, and this year should be really telling. If Judge is the well prepared, emotionally intelligent, and accountable coach he appeared to be last year, the Giants are in good hands.
That's not exactly true. The Giants may have saved slightly on AAV by buying during a down year for the cap, but they're taking the savings this year for every single one of those contracts. The implied inflation of an increasing cap is already baked into every one of those contracts, in some cases, to a dramatic extent.
That doesn't make the contracts bad per se, but the Giants didn't really gain any future bargains by signing players this year when the market was deflated. If you look at this year's signings with year one removed, those future cap hits are probably going to look exactly like what a 2022 FA's AAV is going to be.
fewer otherwise desirable FA reach FA?
The market setting cases ( granted over buys) are able to be quite high relative to the current averages?
Immutable laws of the Dutch Tulip market mentality that overtakes 22 of 32 owners each year??
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In comment 15207129 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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In comment 15207075 GiantsFan84 said:
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In comment 15207067 UConn4523 said:
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what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...
i've said on this and other threads what i would have done. i would have accepted that the team is rebuilding and it would take another couple seasons of gradual improvement primarily through the draft. i would have wrote jones off as a bad pick and worked on improving the remaining part of the roster with the draft. i would have already extended peppers.
LOL. So, you would extend Peppers based on one year but written off Jones as a failed pick? I'm really fucking glad you aren't making the moves.
how'd not extending williams work out? i'd either extend peppers (my preference) or trade him
and yes about jones. i think he stinks
just stop watching the giants for about 5 yrs if you think Jones stinks because thats how long it will take to fix that problem. Glad you're still holding on to that pre-draft narrative on Jones.
why would i stop watching because i think jones stinks? kent graham stunk. dave brown stunk. danny kanell (sorry danny) stunk. there were plenty of bad qbs this team has. i watched them all. every game. just because i think the qb stinks doesn't mean i'm not a fan
2023 is where a lot of decisions land, and if these primary players are cut you have earmarked a lot of money on players not on your roster. Worst case scenarios:
- Williams 7.5M dead money
- Golladay 10.2M dead money
- Ryan 1.5M dead money
- Jackson 4.5M dead money
I imagine the rough design is run this core group, including Jones, Barkley, etc. through 2022, with 2022 being where you expect to deep in the mix.
every single qb expert said Jones had a good last yr. Every single one. Not some fan looking up TD numbers.
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Is a pre-draft (read Sy's scouting report) and post-draft (performance speaks for itself) narrative.
every single qb expert said Jones had a good last yr. Every single one. Not some fan looking up TD numbers.
sure keep telling yourself this.. but it is not reality.
There is a lot of doubt around the league about Jones. Appropriately so. And there are no QB experts that think Jones is close to a finished product. It is true many do see potential. Heading into Year 3 it is time to convert potential into stardom or it will be time to move on from this kid.
fewer otherwise desirable FA reach FA?
The market setting cases ( granted over buys) are able to be quite high relative to the current averages?
Immutable laws of the Dutch Tulip market mentality that overtakes 22 of 32 owners each year??
Bingo. Which is why it isn't wise to invest into the very top end of the FA market with the big exception being this year. Many teams just weren't in the position to spend. I'm glad we recognized this and made it work where we could.
There's a reason Bill dropped the hammer this year in FA spending. Competition was much lower than a usual year. Got lucky that they were just happening to bite the bullet last y ear for the future, but some guys get all the breaks!
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Is a pre-draft (read Sy's scouting report) and post-draft (performance speaks for itself) narrative.
every single qb expert said Jones had a good last yr. Every single one. Not some fan looking up TD numbers.
How do you feel about QBR as a neutral statistical measurement?
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In comment 15207234 Go Terps said:
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Is a pre-draft (read Sy's scouting report) and post-draft (performance speaks for itself) narrative.
every single qb expert said Jones had a good last yr. Every single one. Not some fan looking up TD numbers.
How do you feel about QBR as a neutral statistical measurement?
I thought your standard was kiloTDs?
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In comment 15206859 Eric from BBI said:
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Because they have let the solid DT walk (proven by the fact that that player went onto have a successful career with the other team) while the free agent the Giants signed is often off of the team in a couple of years.
So the Giants let the good player walk and cut the player they signed.
Look, not to sound like a dick, but I'm pretty confident I'm on the right side of this argument. If the Giants roster wasn't such a train wreck, we wouldn't be signing all of these free agents. When we started this offseason, this roster wasn't better than when Gettleman got here. You could argue it was worse.
There is no doubt the Giants have drafted poorly and that’s why they are in this mess. But you can deal with the salary cap implications by structuring contracts that don’t bite you 3 years later and by chasing over rated free agents based on need (did anyone really think Solder was that good?) and giving them large signing bonuses that are amortized over 5 yrs.
And as for 2nd round tackles, other than Linval Joseph in 2010, who else has left to go on to have a good career post Giants?
Linval Joseph leaves and they draft Marvin Austin in the 2nd round (not much of a career). So they draft Jonathan Hankins in the 2nd round (went onto become a full-time starter with Colts and Raiders). So they fill his spot with Snacks Harrison. Snacks gets traded and then draft Dexter Lawrence the following offseason (the immediate assumption was he would replace Snacks, but Tomlinson took over the NT position).
Austin stunk, Hankins was not worth the money he received and Snacks turned out to be a bad locker room presence. Just because these players leave, doesn’t not mean you want to keep them. That is the definition of constantly trying to upgrade the roster, regardless of where they were drafted.