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“New England was good,” an evaluator said. “It cost a lot of money, but they had to do something to try to turn it around there. I put the Giants in the same category. They spent too much money relative to what they acquired, but they needed to acquire what they acquired Some teams operate from a position of strength during free agency. The 2021 Giants were not one of them. Leonard Williams held the leverage in negotiations as a player the team acquired via trade, helping him land a three-year, $63 million contract to rank behind only Joey Bosa, Myles Garrett and Aaron Donald among defensive linemen. The Giants paid $18 million a year for Kenny Golladay when the next receiver in free agency earned $12.5 million. They paid $13 million a year for cornerback Adoree Jackson, who actually got a raise over what he was earning from Tennessee, the team that cut him. “What they paid was ridiculous to me, but who they got wasn’t a problem,” an exec said. “They had trouble getting receivers to go there, so the Golladay deal is kind of what happens. I don’t know how they got Adoree Jackson to $13 million. Adoree is talented but has been hurt a lot. Kyle Rudolph can be a good signing because they can go to 12 personnel now and be really good.” Giants owner John Mara acknowledged the high prices, joking that critics can call the team stupid, but not cheap. “The Adoree Jackson deal was inexcusable,” an exec said. “And then they went and jeopardized their future cap by converting guys to get all these deals done. The potential for disaster is high.” The team is betting on Golladay, who missed 11 games last season, and Jackson, who missed 18 games over the past two seasons. Rudolph is 31 and missed four games last season after a five-year run without missing any. “Going into free agency, the cap was lower and a lot of teams did not have much ammo,” an evaluator said. “The longer you waited, the bigger the bargains were going to be. Adoree Jackson was late in the process. He should have been a bargain, and he wasn’t. That was questionable.” |
A significant chunk of this team's salary cap is being taken up by players who are no longer on the roster. Again.
What?
Who besides Tate and Zeitler? Their combined dead cap hit is 3% of our salary cap. That's "a significant chunk?" C'mon Eric.
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He is a run down only player who is being paid $10 million/yr. The Giants replaced him with a run down only player for $1.0 million. Seems shrewd to me.
Would you rather have a run stuffer or athletic CB? That’s rhetorical in today’s NFL.
And escalating salaries are irrelevant. That structure is preferable to bonuses. If they player does not perform, he is cut with limited dead money. Fine by me.
The "irrelevant" argument has been made by BBIers for the past 10 years. The results seem to suggest it may be relevant after all.
A significant chunk of this team's salary cap is being taken up by players who are no longer on the roster. Again.
And you deal with it, hopefully learn from it, and move on. Not making moves out of fear for repeating past mistakes will get us no where. Flush with cash maybe, but we'd face the same questions next year - "is this a mistake to spend on X player" only this time it will be for even more money with the cap rising.
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A significant chunk of this team's salary cap is being taken up by players who are no longer on the roster. Again.
What?
Who besides Tate and Zeitler? Their combined dead cap hit is 3% of our salary cap. That's "a significant chunk?" C'mon Eric.
We currently have $10,428,507 in dead money against the 2021 salary cap. That's pretty darn significant.
The Giants spent $170 million on three players this offseason. If any of those three have to be cut, or get injured, we have a huge cap hit that will prevent the team from keeping its own players (see Tomlinson as the latest example).
The counter-argument has always been, "What choice did the Giants have?!"
The did have a choice. They could have chosen not to give huge contracts to Olivier Vernon, Nate Solder, etc., bit the bullet, acquired draft picks (including comp picks), and rebuilt through the draft and cheap free agents.
The Giants are obviously all-in for the upcoming season. The division isn't very good and they know it. But if you look at the schedule, it's a bitch. We play both Super Bowl teams. If the Giants are 10-6, then the fans will be happy. But if this team is 6-10 again?
I needed them to try. I will say it again. We need a pick up after Covid. Maybe it will miss but aren't you excited for the upcoming season. I do see a reasonable scenario where we are a good team in 2021. 2020 felt dead before it started.
You have 7 draft picks per year on average to field a team fans will accept and advertisers will pay for.
Ok now get it done without taking any risks so we can be really happy in the off season
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In comment 15206704 Eric from BBI said:
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A significant chunk of this team's salary cap is being taken up by players who are no longer on the roster. Again.
What?
Who besides Tate and Zeitler? Their combined dead cap hit is 3% of our salary cap. That's "a significant chunk?" C'mon Eric.
We currently have $10,428,507 in dead money against the 2021 salary cap. That's pretty darn significant.
I thought I read recently that the average dead cap by team is like 7-8 million so not too much above that. Now a few years ago when we were eating 20M+ on the OBJ deal, that was rough. However, we knew we weren’t competing at that time and the team clearly viewed the draft picks and Peppers being worth eating dead money for a year or 2.
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are wrong and unfairly stated?
The Giants nailed free agency with the players and the executed contracts and these other executives are just missing it?
I don't think they are missing it, but id be curious to know which Execs it is so we can all look at their resumes.
What they say is fair but atleast from what's posted here, none address that the cap will go back up and these can technically all be discount contracts as soon as 2022.
Should NFL executives provide that level of detail in their analysis?
Their resumes?...just to check to see if they are incompetent NFL executives or figuring out if the have an agenda or reason to badmouth the NY Giants?
These are just comments on how some execs read the NYG deals....they aren't going to give you their detailed analyses. And don't you think these execs have some idea of what they think the cap will do in making the comments they did and suggesting what may be risky.
No draft choices and no contracts. We keep the money.
After all, we would lose 17 games at the most but we would have spent nothing.
The above it true. Is it insightful?
The Giants are obviously all-in for the upcoming season. The division isn't very good and they know it. But if you look at the schedule, it's a bitch. We play both Super Bowl teams. If the Giants are 10-6, then the fans will be happy. But if this team is 6-10 again?
They are 100% all in! To me as a fan that excites me, Judge is making this move because he sees the path to victory. I like the risk taking here under his vision. Let's go win now.
He has upside, so I'm not going to complain about it, but there is a bust factor here, much more so than with KG. Signing AJax is in no way similar to signing Bradberry. Bradberry had missed 3 games in 4 years, and while we can quibble if he was considered elite, he without a doubt was a top 10 CB.
You have 7 draft picks per year on average to field a team fans will accept and advertisers will pay for.
Ok now get it done without taking any risks so we can be really happy in the off season
Don't be a wise ass.
You guys are asking like it is not fair game to criticize the management of a team that can't get out of the basement of the worst division in football.
You don't get better by paying players who haven't had a whiff of the Pro Bowl like they are All-Stars. Everyone around here said signing Nate Solder to that deal was "great" and "fantastic." "They had to do it!"
Go back through the Free Agency Scorecards I've kept for the last decade and look at how much Reese and Gettleman have spent on which free agents. It's not good.
All of these execs are saying is what is obvious. The Giants can't draft and because of that, they have had to overspend every year in free agency. That's not an inaccurate statement. It's the truth.
http://www.bigblueinteractive.com/free-agency/ - ( New Window )
The Giants nailed free agency with the players and the executed contracts and these other executives are just missing it?
But if the cap balloons to $220m next year and $250m the year after that, due to the new TV deal, these contracts are reasonable.
I hope Judge is the right guy too, but Giants fans have embraced this notion that he is the second-coming of Parcells based on another losing season.
The new narrative with Giants fans seems to be, "I don't like Mara. I don't like Gettleman. But I trust Judge and he will fix it!"
Judge still has yet to prove he is the real deal.
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This is a sport with an Average Career of 4 years, an annual injury rate of 25% and therefore takes 25% more players per year over the 53 fixed roster number. Or about 66 players over a year.
You have 7 draft picks per year on average to field a team fans will accept and advertisers will pay for.
Ok now get it done without taking any risks so we can be really happy in the off season
Don't be a wise ass.
You guys are asking like it is not fair game to criticize the management of a team that can't get out of the basement of the worst division in football.
You don't get better by paying players who haven't had a whiff of the Pro Bowl like they are All-Stars. Everyone around here said signing Nate Solder to that deal was "great" and "fantastic." "They had to do it!"
Go back through the Free Agency Scorecards I've kept for the last decade and look at how much Reese and Gettleman have spent on which free agents. It's not good.
All of these execs are saying is what is obvious. The Giants can't draft and because of that, they have had to overspend every year in free agency. That's not an inaccurate statement. It's the truth. http://www.bigblueinteractive.com/free-agency/ - ( New Window )
What is the debate really? 100% they have not drafted well. Yes they overpaid in FA.
To me it's the fact that they didn't want to bargain shop. They got who they wanted because they are focused on winning this year. Sure it may fail, but we have this coach we believe in. You can't wait too long in the NFL. They believe in the QB. He's in his rookie deal. Time to go.
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is that it appears we have a coaching staff that will know what to do with the talent vs. our buddy McAdoo who clearly had zero control of that team based on the boat trip, etc.
I hope Judge is the right guy too, but Giants fans have embraced this notion that he is the second-coming of Parcells based on another losing season.
The new narrative with Giants fans seems to be, "I don't like Mara. I don't like Gettleman. But I trust Judge and he will fix it!"
Judge still has yet to prove he is the real deal.
I agree in that we need to see more. But the second half of last season putting up a 5-3 record with what we had out there on offense in particular gives me hope that Judge is the right guy. This is a big season for him just as much as it is for the players to prove themselves.
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In comment 15206704 Eric from BBI said:
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A significant chunk of this team's salary cap is being taken up by players who are no longer on the roster. Again.
What?
Who besides Tate and Zeitler? Their combined dead cap hit is 3% of our salary cap. That's "a significant chunk?" C'mon Eric.
We currently have $10,428,507 in dead money against the 2021 salary cap. That's pretty darn significant.
It is also right in the middle of dead cap space for all teams. Right in the middle of all teams league wide. Not good but not that bad either.
What is the debate really? 100% they have not drafted well. Yes they overpaid in FA.
To me it's the fact that they didn't want to bargain shop. They got who they wanted because they are focused on winning this year. Sure it may fail, but we have this coach we believe in. You can't wait too long in the NFL. They believe in the QB. He's in his rookie deal. Time to go.
I wasn't excited when we spent all that money on guys like Vernon in 2016 but everyone said how we were going to be great between the media and friends.
In the process, we mortgage our future by tying up Cap dollars that ultimately make it hard to re-sign our players who we know are actually worth it.
I don't want to be annual Off-Season champs - I prefer to let crap organizations like the WTF take those accolades. IMO a year or two of belt tightening and draft pick accumulations makes the most sense.
And, by the way, I'm pretty tired of hearing people say how hard it is to acquire those extra picks by trading down. It happens every single goddamned year - only it's always managed to be done by teams not called the New York Football Giants.
The NFL salary cap is not actually that large when you take into account 53 contracts. So anything above 5 percent is "significant", especially when it is year after year after year:
NYG dead money as a percentage of the cap by year:
2021: 5.6 percent (so far)
2020: 10.8 percent
2019: 28.1 percent
2018: 24.7 percent
So yes, the trend is down, but you can see from 2018 and 2019 that when you screw up in a FA signing, it can crush you like 2018 and 2019.
You are argue 5.6 percent doesn't really matter. It does in that it prevents you from keeping someone like Tomlinson or signing another reasonably priced free agent. It's like interest on debt. It's just wasted money.
WR didn't want to go to Giants...really? Ridiculous
Lets see what players sign for next year....when cap starts to skyrocket
While Lombardi is biased against the organization, he doesn't put his sentences together like the quotes portray. Before slickwilly asks how the fuck I know, I listen to ML quite a lot on Shuffle and VSIN.
They didn't think he was worth that money, and they found a few guys to replace him at a fraction of that cost.
2018 and 2019 happened because the Giants horribly miscalculated on free agents.
The point here by these execs and me is this: "If the Giants have miscalculated again, they are going to be back in the same situation as 2018 and 2019".
Do I think they will? I have no idea. Old Eric would have argued that the Giants are smarter than the other teams and these were great signings.
The Giants no longer receive that kind of trust from me.
They are doing what they did in 2016 this offseason. The argument here seems to be, "2021 is different from 2016 because these players are better fits."
Maybe. Maybe not.
But it's the same strategy. Spend a shit-load of money on 3-4 free agents in one offseason and make a playoff run. The Giants did make the playoffs in 2016. So what?
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In comment 15206682 Jimmy Googs said:
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are wrong and unfairly stated?
The Giants nailed free agency with the players and the executed contracts and these other executives are just missing it?
I don't think they are missing it, but id be curious to know which Execs it is so we can all look at their resumes.
What they say is fair but atleast from what's posted here, none address that the cap will go back up and these can technically all be discount contracts as soon as 2022.
Should NFL executives provide that level of detail in their analysis?
Their resumes?...just to check to see if they are incompetent NFL executives or figuring out if the have an agenda or reason to badmouth the NY Giants?
These are just comments on how some execs read the NYG deals....they aren't going to give you their detailed analyses. And don't you think these execs have some idea of what they think the cap will do in making the comments they did and suggesting what may be risky.
No I don't, they seem to be talking about 2021 only which is my point. They are unnamed and I have no idea who they are, so I think being slightly skeptical is reasonable. And I already said their points are fair so there's really no reason for friction. I think the leaguewide cap decrease in 2021 compared to where it will be in 2022 and beyond is a critical piece of information that they didn't discuss (maybe they did but it isn't in the OP).
The object is to win. You don't get a field goal multiplier for being the team with the least risk.
It's a sport.
"Wtf is Tyree doing in there?"
Perfect example of critique by complaining about risk.
" Just make sure they have to throw it to Manningham "
Some of us have gotten so used to complaining we complain "something could go wrong" as if that truth is useful analysis.
It's also true that if you get out of bed and get hit by lightning walking to your car in the driveway...its on you for taking that risk. Anyone live that way? Then why obssess about the risks needed to win in a sport?
Hell, NE took hell of a risk on one QB for 10 years or more. The risk of severe injury and not winning again against 31 other teams only goes up. Why pay a dime for that? Something could go wrong.
Why station three carriers north of Midway? Something could go wrong.
Why ride a bicycle? Something could go wrong.
Why enter the event Mr Phelps? You could drown.
Why you're a strong 'follow'. If Garrett can just figure out what 'AF' means.......
It's a gamble.
They didn't think he was worth that money, and they found a few guys to replace him at a fraction of that cost.
That remains to be seen if they "replaced" Tomlinson.
I've heard BBIers in recent years say the Giants smartly let other 2nd-round defensive tackles entering their second contract go. And that was not the case.
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the dead cap number did not have any way shape or form effect the Giants ability to resign Dalvin Tomlinson. They could have resigned him, easily actually.
They didn't think he was worth that money, and they found a few guys to replace him at a fraction of that cost.
That remains to be seen if they "replaced" Tomlinson.
I've heard BBIers in recent years say the Giants smartly let other 2nd-round defensive tackles entering their second contract go. And that was not the case.
Have we not done a good job filling Tomlinsons role, historically? Have we done better with that or finding CB's?
Look, I kick Getty in the nuts all the time, because he deserves it mostly, but signing a bunch of FA? No, I'm not kicking his balls for that just yet. The offense was putrid. What did anyone expect Jints Central to do? I think the signings were terrific and yes, they could go sideways, but then again, well... see Bill2s post above.
One thing that did catch my eye was the comment that the Giants have had trouble getting receivers to sign. I wonder if there's anything to that - and I wonder why that would be?
In other words, we've been treading water. We have had to use one of 7 draft picks to replace someone we should have kept and used that pick on another position. It's one of the main reasons why this team never seems to be getting better.
Is Gettleman an upgrade over Reese? The record doesn't suggest that yet.
I am very hopeful about Judge. I have also fallen victim to the narrative that "Judge is really running things and he knows what to do." But what is that based on other than faith and hope? Right now, he's a 6-10 coach with a special teams background. If he goes 10-6 in 2021, the needle will be pointing up on him. If he is 6-10 again, the honeymoon will be over.
Again, you are talking about Jerry Reese. And, we drafted Tomlinson in 2017. He wasn't really replacing anyone. Hankins never really panned out. We should have resigned Joseph but that was 2014.
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We have had to spend 2nd round picks on DTs to fill vacancies created by letting good DTs walk in free agency when they are about to receive their second contract.
Again, you are talking about Jerry Reese. And, we drafted Tomlinson in 2017. He wasn't really replacing anyone. Hankins never really panned out. We should have resigned Joseph but that was 2014.
But Gettleman just did what Reese did. He let up-and-coming 2nd-round DT walk in free agency. Hopefully Shelton can replace him. If he can't, we have another hole to fill. (If we move Dexter over, then we have a hole there).
I wasn't excited when we spent all that money on guys like Vernon in 2016 but everyone said how we were going to be great between the media and friends.
And for all the negative downstream consequences they won 11 games and Eli gave them a chance to knock off Rodgers again on his home turf if anyone had bothered to show up with him.
We all play the cards we get, not the cards we want. For the last 5+ years this organization has been playing the cards of a team who had no good homegrown talent worthy of extensions after their 4th + 5th years. 0 players from the '11, '12, '13 drafts got 2nd contracts here so they had cash to burn in those corresponding future offseasons ('15, '16, '17). The '14, '15, '16, '17 drafts weren't much better and on and on the future FA cycle have continued.
When teams don't have players they drafted worth big money the cards they are holding are weaker and basically force them into the FA market because what's the alternative to getting better players and improving? Not trying is essentially Bill's hypothetical above. Within reason, trying is better than folding imo.