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“New England was good,” an evaluator said. “It cost a lot of money, but they had to do something to try to turn it around there. I put the Giants in the same category. They spent too much money relative to what they acquired, but they needed to acquire what they acquired Some teams operate from a position of strength during free agency. The 2021 Giants were not one of them. Leonard Williams held the leverage in negotiations as a player the team acquired via trade, helping him land a three-year, $63 million contract to rank behind only Joey Bosa, Myles Garrett and Aaron Donald among defensive linemen. The Giants paid $18 million a year for Kenny Golladay when the next receiver in free agency earned $12.5 million. They paid $13 million a year for cornerback Adoree Jackson, who actually got a raise over what he was earning from Tennessee, the team that cut him. “What they paid was ridiculous to me, but who they got wasn’t a problem,” an exec said. “They had trouble getting receivers to go there, so the Golladay deal is kind of what happens. I don’t know how they got Adoree Jackson to $13 million. Adoree is talented but has been hurt a lot. Kyle Rudolph can be a good signing because they can go to 12 personnel now and be really good.” Giants owner John Mara acknowledged the high prices, joking that critics can call the team stupid, but not cheap. “The Adoree Jackson deal was inexcusable,” an exec said. “And then they went and jeopardized their future cap by converting guys to get all these deals done. The potential for disaster is high.” The team is betting on Golladay, who missed 11 games last season, and Jackson, who missed 18 games over the past two seasons. Rudolph is 31 and missed four games last season after a five-year run without missing any. “Going into free agency, the cap was lower and a lot of teams did not have much ammo,” an evaluator said. “The longer you waited, the bigger the bargains were going to be. Adoree Jackson was late in the process. He should have been a bargain, and he wasn’t. That was questionable.” |
That team could have had a window to do more if they hadn't completely failed to field a competent offensive line the next year as well.
There IS a parallel to 2021. They have lost their most reliable offensive lineman. They did not apparently improve the offensive line that allowed 45 sacks in 2020. The improvement at this point lies in assumed young player growth, and that's something that gets coaches and GMs fired.
If the OL is what holds the team back again, you might get a similar result as the collapse in 2017.
Remember, this is a DT who had twice injured his knees before being drafted and the coached were all in draft rooms at the time.
We respect when BB cuts early rather than late. Tomlinson being "lost" because we dint have cap room is a charge glibly made but possibly not an accurate assessment of the decision at all. We don't know so it's easy to say but impossible to depend on as a debating point.
But did the Giants get better or worse at NT and RG?
And as much as we're talking about Golladay and Jackson, it's the other contracts that are also under the spotlight.
Should the Giants have given Logan Ryan a 3-year, $31 million deal?
Should Leonard Williams have received a 3-year, $63 million deal?
I love Kyle Rudolph. If he is healthy, he could have as much of an impact as Golladay on Daniel Jones. But they gave $12 million to a 31-year old TE who had Lisfranc surgery last week.
Devonte Booker got almost $6 million.
My point here is sometimes we focus on the big contracts, but it the money the Giants give a Toilolo as a 3rd string TE that causes problems.
I'm excited about 2021. But the execs are merely pointing out that the Giants had to spend a ton of money (they've added 15 free agents in the last 3 weeks) because of holes all over the roster. That's not good.
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and the 2016 spending spree they went on and the subsequent years that followed - was that Dave Gettleman and Joe Judge?
Is Gettleman an upgrade over Reese? The record doesn't suggest that yet.
I am very hopeful about Judge. I have also fallen victim to the narrative that "Judge is really running things and he knows what to do." But what is that based on other than faith and hope? Right now, he's a 6-10 coach with a special teams background. If he goes 10-6 in 2021, the needle will be pointing up on him. If he is 6-10 again, the honeymoon will be over.
While I fundamentally agree with this notion, it will continue to be difficult to evaluate any head coach, as long as the drafting and cap management are underwhelming.
It's obvious we cant spend our way out of poor drafting and the truth will come to light(already has IMO). This falls squarely on the GM although many make excuses for DG.
The Giants spent $170 million on three players this offseason. If any of those three have to be cut, or get injured, we have a huge cap hit that will prevent the team from keeping its own players (see Tomlinson as the latest example).
The counter-argument has always been, "What choice did the Giants have?!"
The did have a choice. They could have chosen not to give huge contracts to Olivier Vernon, Nate Solder, etc., bit the bullet, acquired draft picks (including comp picks), and rebuilt through the draft and cheap free agents.
The Giants are obviously all-in for the upcoming season. The division isn't very good and they know it. But if you look at the schedule, it's a bitch. We play both Super Bowl teams. If the Giants are 10-6, then the fans will be happy. But if this team is 6-10 again?
True, but my feeling is that the Giants they are really only at risk for 2022. For example, way the Giants structured the Galloway deal, they can cut him after 2022 with only $10 million. Jackson is similar, he can be cut after 2022 with only $4.5 million dead money. The dead money sucks, but I wouldn't think it's a cap killer like the Solder and Vernon contracts were.
Another consideration is Jones. The Giants need to know if he is a winning starting QB, and soon. They have to decide on exercising his 5th year option after this season. If he can't win in 2021 then at least the Giants will know for certain whether they should continue to invest in him.
That team could have had a window to do more if they hadn't completely failed to field a competent offensive line the next year as well.
There IS a parallel to 2021. They have lost their most reliable offensive lineman. They did not apparently improve the offensive line that allowed 45 sacks in 2020. The improvement at this point lies in assumed young player growth, and that's something that gets coaches and GMs fired.
If the OL is what holds the team back again, you might get a similar result as the collapse in 2017.
Yes and no. It's pretty apparent that the coaches quickly soured on Oliver Vernon and Damon Harrison as they were traded. We all had the feeling that Janoris Jenkins wasn't long for the team either and they just simply cut him. In hindsight, there is no way the team makes those moves again.
2011 draft = 2015/16 FA
2012 draft = 2016/17 FA
2013 draft = 2017/18 FA
2014 draft = 2018/19 FA
2015 draft = 2019/20 FA
2016 draft = 2020/21 FA
2017 draft = 2021/22 FA
You can almost directly trace the Solder signing in 2018 to Pugh (13) and Richburg (14) hitting UFA that same year and not being worth extensions. Same as you can trace all of the Pats spending this year back to their 2016 + 2017 draft classes which were basically trash other than Thuney (who they elected to not pay).
I know I sound argumentative, but you guys are literally making the same arguments you did five years ago.
All I am saying is let's see the results on the field first before we celebrate like Redskins fans winning the Super Bowl in March.
Getting anywhere near .500 would be a great start.
But did the Giants get better or worse at NT and RG?
And as much as we're talking about Golladay and Jackson, it's the other contracts that are also under the spotlight.
Should the Giants have given Logan Ryan a 3-year, $31 million deal?
Should Leonard Williams have received a 3-year, $63 million deal?
I love Kyle Rudolph. If he is healthy, he could have as much of an impact as Golladay on Daniel Jones. But they gave $12 million to a 31-year old TE who had Lisfranc surgery last week.
Devonte Booker got almost $6 million.
My point here is sometimes we focus on the big contracts, but it the money the Giants give a Toilolo as a 3rd string TE that causes problems.
I'm excited about 2021. But the execs are merely pointing out that the Giants had to spend a ton of money (they've added 15 free agents in the last 3 weeks) because of holes all over the roster. That's not good.
Good points.
Bradberry and Jackson are good examples of how badly the Giants have drafted. DG has spent a ton of draft picks on CBs, but still had to sign two expensive FAs. He has also drafted only one (Slayton) WR in three drafts, despite having 12 picks last year. And Slayton was a fifth round pick. He overpaid for Williams, but he was at least our own player who was coming off a monster year. He also couldn't lose both Williams and Tomlinson. His mistake was in underestimating how hard it would be to sign Williams.
I would have been fine keeping Tomlinson instead of Williams, and not signing Golladay or Jackson. Eric is right. At some point, we need to commit to building through the draft not FA, even if that means getting new scouts. That is what good teams like the Ravens do, which is why the consistently get comp picks. Their draft picks become FAs that other teams value and sign. Dallas is now also in that category.
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that dragged a terrible offensive team by the ass to the playoffs.
That team could have had a window to do more if they hadn't completely failed to field a competent offensive line the next year as well.
There IS a parallel to 2021. They have lost their most reliable offensive lineman. They did not apparently improve the offensive line that allowed 45 sacks in 2020. The improvement at this point lies in assumed young player growth, and that's something that gets coaches and GMs fired.
If the OL is what holds the team back again, you might get a similar result as the collapse in 2017.
Yes and no. It's pretty apparent that the coaches quickly soured on Oliver Vernon and Damon Harrison as they were traded. We all had the feeling that Janoris Jenkins wasn't long for the team either and they just simply cut him. In hindsight, there is no way the team makes those moves again.
The coaches didn't quickly sour on them, Reese/Ross/McAdoo quickly got fired and the new regime quickly moved on.
In other words, we've been treading water. We have had to use one of 7 draft picks to replace someone we should have kept and used that pick on another position. It's one of the main reasons why this team never seems to be getting better.
Why is that a bad thing? If we can plug this hole via the draft and keep our cash for harder to fill positions, isn't that ideal?
In a perfect world we aren't dealing with the issues of past players that didn't workout, and their burden to the cap, but since we are to some extent I think i'd rather spend on the harder to fill roles, and use a pick/cheap vet combo to backfill Tomlinsons role.
There's always going to be downside, but the risk here seems pretty minimal.
Bradberry and Jackson are good examples of how badly the Giants have drafted. DG has spent a ton of draft picks on CBs, but still had to sign two expensive FAs. He has also drafted only one (Slayton) WR in three drafts, despite having 12 picks last year. And Slayton was a fifth round pick. He overpaid for Williams, but he was at least our own player who was coming off a monster year. He also couldn't lose both Williams and Tomlinson. His mistake was in underestimating how hard it would be to sign Williams.
I would have been fine keeping Tomlinson instead of Williams, and not signing Golladay or Jackson. Eric is right. At some point, we need to commit to building through the draft not FA, even if that means getting new scouts. That is what good teams like the Ravens do, which is why the consistently get comp picks. Their draft picks become FAs that other teams value and sign. Dallas is now also in that category.
Yup. unless Julian Love pans out, they very recently drafted three defensive backs in one draft with zero impact. That's horrible.
If you draft poorly, you'll need to overcompensate in free agency. The issue with free agency is that these players like Golladay and Jackson don't come without risk and/or "overpaying".
But listen, nobody is killing them for what they did in free agency.. Most understand that this is a team desperately trying to regain their place amongst the best teams in the league. The Giants hold themselves to a high standard. They always have.
What they're getting killed for is their drafting and that falls directly on Dave Gettleman's and Chris Pettit's shoulders.
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In comment 15206701 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 15206682 Jimmy Googs said:
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are wrong and unfairly stated?
The Giants nailed free agency with the players and the executed contracts and these other executives are just missing it?
I don't think they are missing it, but id be curious to know which Execs it is so we can all look at their resumes.
What they say is fair but atleast from what's posted here, none address that the cap will go back up and these can technically all be discount contracts as soon as 2022.
Should NFL executives provide that level of detail in their analysis?
Their resumes?...just to check to see if they are incompetent NFL executives or figuring out if the have an agenda or reason to badmouth the NY Giants?
These are just comments on how some execs read the NYG deals....they aren't going to give you their detailed analyses. And don't you think these execs have some idea of what they think the cap will do in making the comments they did and suggesting what may be risky.
No I don't, they seem to be talking about 2021 only which is my point. They are unnamed and I have no idea who they are, so I think being slightly skeptical is reasonable. And I already said their points are fair so there's really no reason for friction. I think the leaguewide cap decrease in 2021 compared to where it will be in 2022 and beyond is a critical piece of information that they didn't discuss (maybe they did but it isn't in the OP).
No friction...just basically saying that if the comments were positive nobody would be asking for resumes. The posters on the thread would be saying "See...other execs know we killed it too!".
And like I said, the comments are from NFL execs so more reasonable to conclude they understand known/unknown cap risks to some extent.
Almost all the multi year contracts are structured to be 2 year rental; you gotta believe a WR, DT, CB and likely OL are high on the draft board this year to be able to flip the 1 and multi year players out, specifically the under performers, ASAP.
Look how BB flips his roster. Hopefully we can develop players other teams want so we can get comp or trade picks the same was as BB.
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He is a run down only player who is being paid $10 million/yr. The Giants replaced him with a run down only player for $1.0 million. Seems shrewd to me.
Would you rather have a run stuffer or athletic CB? That’s rhetorical in today’s NFL.
And escalating salaries are irrelevant. That structure is preferable to bonuses. If they player does not perform, he is cut with limited dead money. Fine by me.
The "irrelevant" argument has been made by BBIers for the past 10 years. The results seem to suggest it may be relevant after all.
A significant chunk of this team's salary cap is being taken up by players who are no longer on the roster. Again.
It’s not irrelevant when there is dead money from unamortized bonuses. It is when you can walk away from a large salary with no cap implications and that is my point. I would prefer to have larger salaries than big signing or roster bonuses, but historically players and agents have pushed back on these structures. They now appear to be more open to them.
So the Giants let the good player walk and cut the player they signed.
Look, not to sound like a dick, but I'm pretty confident I'm on the right side of this argument. If the Giants roster wasn't such a train wreck, we wouldn't be signing all of these free agents. When we started this offseason, this roster wasn't better than when Gettleman got here. You could argue it was worse.
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am cautiously optimistic that Williams, Golladay, and Jackson are different than Vernon, Harrison, and Jenkins, but agree with Eric that spending a lot in FA is usually an indication that a team has drafted poorly.
Bradberry and Jackson are good examples of how badly the Giants have drafted. DG has spent a ton of draft picks on CBs, but still had to sign two expensive FAs. He has also drafted only one (Slayton) WR in three drafts, despite having 12 picks last year. And Slayton was a fifth round pick. He overpaid for Williams, but he was at least our own player who was coming off a monster year. He also couldn't lose both Williams and Tomlinson. His mistake was in underestimating how hard it would be to sign Williams.
I would have been fine keeping Tomlinson instead of Williams, and not signing Golladay or Jackson. Eric is right. At some point, we need to commit to building through the draft not FA, even if that means getting new scouts. That is what good teams like the Ravens do, which is why the consistently get comp picks. Their draft picks become FAs that other teams value and sign. Dallas is now also in that category.
Yup. unless Julian Love pans out, they very recently drafted three defensive backs in one draft with zero impact. That's horrible.
DG CB picks:
Baker: 1,4,5.
Beal: 3.
Love: 4.
Holmes: 4.
Ballentine: 6.
Yiadom: 7 (trade).
Correct, before they signed and while they were Giants. Snacks and Jenkins, in particular.
In 2016 they were applauded (rightfully so). All 3 were borderline all pro.
2017 started out with SB expectations, they started 0-5 with OBJ breaking his leg, and everyone got fired before the season ended after the Eli debacle. Spagnuolo was the head coach for the last 4 games.
So when in that timeline exactly do you think Ben McAdoo and Jerry Reese soured on those guys?
Almost all the multi year contracts are structured to be 2 year rental; you gotta believe a WR, DT, CB and likely OL are high on the draft board this year to be able to flip the 1 and multi year players out, specifically the under performers, ASAP.
Look how BB flips his roster. Hopefully we can develop players other teams want so we can get comp or trade picks the same was as BB.
His father was tired of losing too in the 1970s.
Wellington later admitted (loudly and often) that they made a mistake to stop building through the draft but through trades. He wanted instant improvement instead of doing it the old-fashioned way. Wellington said, "If I had to do it all over again, I would have built through the draft."
John may be going through the same learning process.
So the Giants let the good player walk and cut the player they signed.
Look, not to sound like a dick, but I'm pretty confident I'm on the right side of this argument. If the Giants roster wasn't such a train wreck, we wouldn't be signing all of these free agents. When we started this offseason, this roster wasn't better than when Gettleman got here. You could argue it was worse.
And it wouldn't be a train wreck if we drafted better. We do appear to have had a better draft last year, perhaps because of Judge.
I know I sound argumentative, but you guys are literally making the same arguments you did five years ago.
All I am saying is let's see the results on the field first before we celebrate like Redskins fans winning the Super Bowl in March.
Getting anywhere near .500 would be a great start.
Yeah, I think my view is coming from the expectation that the 2022 cap will be much higher than $180 million, so $15 million dead will be a lower percentage of the cap. Maybe I am being naive though.
I am no DG fan, but I actually think they structured these new deals well, and I like that they are short. They feel different to me from 2016's "swing for the fences, risks be damned" gambles (partcularly Vernon, but also Harrison (5 years for a 28yo DT) and Jenkins (who was very up and down for the Rams before coming to the Giants).
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There were all kinds of reports about personality issues with Snacks, Jenkins, and Olivier.
Correct, before they signed and while they were Giants. Snacks and Jenkins, in particular.
There is a difference between rumors (talk) and what the organization actually believes/does (actions). I don't recall the regime that signed those players had any problems with them while they were here. The problems began surfacing with the new regime as they were trying to change the culture.
What I left unsaid is it just doesn't matter what Golladay and Jackson do in 2021, but what they do in 2022, 2023, and hopefully beyond.
We received immediate satisfaction from those free agents. After the 2016 season was over, despite the bad playoff loss, we were all thrilled with all three players.
BBI was pretty happy when Vernon was traded. Damon was a surprise, but then there were a bunch of media reports about locker room issues (and BBI posters started saying, "I knew there was a problem when he said he didn't want to be considered a team leader!"). Most of BBI was content with Jenkins being waived. (There seemed to be a sense that it was a matter of time before he was gone).
So you are asking when did management go south on these players? Same time that fans did.
Remember, Golladay and Jackson apparently had "baggage" too. Everyone in the media said the Giants needed to meet with him to see if he was a good fit (reminiscent of Plaxico too). Then there was all the suggested stuff on why Jackson was cut (for Jenkins ironically).
Would it be a complete shock in two years if Golladay is cut after being suspended by Judge a couple of times?
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In comment 15206851 Eric from BBI said:
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There were all kinds of reports about personality issues with Snacks, Jenkins, and Olivier.
Correct, before they signed and while they were Giants. Snacks and Jenkins, in particular.
There is a difference between rumors (talk) and what the organization actually believes/does (actions). I don't recall the regime that signed those players had any problems with them while they were here. The problems began surfacing with the new regime as they were trying to change the culture.
I can tell you what I'm saying is accurate and it wasn't rumors, but need to leave it there. Suffice to say not everything gets printed in the media, there's always more info in the background. They did choose to sign them anyway, but old habits returned and out the door they finally went after DG's due diligence determined who were not part of the solution.
You either think Judge is different or you don't. Sure he still has a ton to prove but if you aren't more comfortable with him coaching big ticket FA over McAdoo/Shurmur than I don't know what else to say on it.
IMO Judge mitigates some of the risk, and his staff (particularly on defense) should be able to get more out of these players than in years past.
You either think Judge is different or you don't. Sure he still has a ton to prove but if you aren't more comfortable with him coaching big ticket FA over McAdoo/Shurmur than I don't know what else to say on it.
IMO Judge mitigates some of the risk, and his staff (particularly on defense) should be able to get more out of these players than in years past.
I like Judge, but nobody has a crystal ball here. We all liked the direction of the team after the 2016 season as well. Nobody had doubts if McAdoo could coach veterans post-2016 either. It was only once things broke down in a way nobody saw coming that the leaks in the boat showed.
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In comment 15206840 AcidTest said:
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am cautiously optimistic that Williams, Golladay, and Jackson are different than Vernon, Harrison, and Jenkins, but agree with Eric that spending a lot in FA is usually an indication that a team has drafted poorly.
Bradberry and Jackson are good examples of how badly the Giants have drafted. DG has spent a ton of draft picks on CBs, but still had to sign two expensive FAs. He has also drafted only one (Slayton) WR in three drafts, despite having 12 picks last year. And Slayton was a fifth round pick. He overpaid for Williams, but he was at least our own player who was coming off a monster year. He also couldn't lose both Williams and Tomlinson. His mistake was in underestimating how hard it would be to sign Williams.
I would have been fine keeping Tomlinson instead of Williams, and not signing Golladay or Jackson. Eric is right. At some point, we need to commit to building through the draft not FA, even if that means getting new scouts. That is what good teams like the Ravens do, which is why the consistently get comp picks. Their draft picks become FAs that other teams value and sign. Dallas is now also in that category.
Yup. unless Julian Love pans out, they very recently drafted three defensive backs in one draft with zero impact. That's horrible.
DG CB picks:
Baker: 1,4,5.
Beal: 3.
Love: 4.
Holmes: 4.
Ballentine: 6.
Yiadom: 7 (trade).
That should be a 2, 4, and 5 for Baker.
But yes, the sentiment is correct. Basically and entire draft in 2019 spent on CBs and we only have a backup in Love to show for it.
And a hefty price tag for Bradberry and now Jackson to "re-do" what all those draft picks were supposed to do.
So the Giants let the good player walk and cut the player they signed.
Look, not to sound like a dick, but I'm pretty confident I'm on the right side of this argument. If the Giants roster wasn't such a train wreck, we wouldn't be signing all of these free agents. When we started this offseason, this roster wasn't better than when Gettleman got here. You could argue it was worse.
There is no doubt the Giants have drafted poorly and that’s why they are in this mess. But you can deal with the salary cap implications by structuring contracts that don’t bite you 3 years later and by chasing over rated free agents based on need (did anyone really think Solder was that good?) and giving them large signing bonuses that are amortized over 5 yrs.
And as for 2nd round tackles, other than Linval Joseph in 2010, who else has left to go on to have a good career post Giants?
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our coaching staff bears a lot of that blame. If Judge was the coach in 2016 do you think half the stuff with that FA class, Beckham, etc still happen?
You either think Judge is different or you don't. Sure he still has a ton to prove but if you aren't more comfortable with him coaching big ticket FA over McAdoo/Shurmur than I don't know what else to say on it.
IMO Judge mitigates some of the risk, and his staff (particularly on defense) should be able to get more out of these players than in years past.
I like Judge, but nobody has a crystal ball here. We all liked the direction of the team after the 2016 season as well. Nobody had doubts if McAdoo could coach veterans post-2016 either. It was only once things broke down in a way nobody saw coming that the leaks in the boat showed.
There would NOT have been a boat trip a week before a playoff if Judge was here. That’s was the beginning of the end for me with Duke McAdoo
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our coaching staff bears a lot of that blame. If Judge was the coach in 2016 do you think half the stuff with that FA class, Beckham, etc still happen?
You either think Judge is different or you don't. Sure he still has a ton to prove but if you aren't more comfortable with him coaching big ticket FA over McAdoo/Shurmur than I don't know what else to say on it.
IMO Judge mitigates some of the risk, and his staff (particularly on defense) should be able to get more out of these players than in years past.
I like Judge, but nobody has a crystal ball here. We all liked the direction of the team after the 2016 season as well. Nobody had doubts if McAdoo could coach veterans post-2016 either. It was only once things broke down in a way nobody saw coming that the leaks in the boat showed.
Well, ever think why it broke down? Not sure I agree that no one saw it coming either - the 2016 season still had a woeful offense that McAdoo couldn't fix, which is why he was brought here in the first place.
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Because they have let the solid DT walk (proven by the fact that that player went onto have a successful career with the other team) while the free agent the Giants signed is often off of the team in a couple of years.
So the Giants let the good player walk and cut the player they signed.
Look, not to sound like a dick, but I'm pretty confident I'm on the right side of this argument. If the Giants roster wasn't such a train wreck, we wouldn't be signing all of these free agents. When we started this offseason, this roster wasn't better than when Gettleman got here. You could argue it was worse.
There is no doubt the Giants have drafted poorly and that’s why they are in this mess. But you can deal with the salary cap implications by structuring contracts that don’t bite you 3 years later and by chasing over rated free agents based on need (did anyone really think Solder was that good?) and giving them large signing bonuses that are amortized over 5 yrs.
And as for 2nd round tackles, other than Linval Joseph in 2010, who else has left to go on to have a good career post Giants?
Linval Joseph leaves and they draft Marvin Austin in the 2nd round (not much of a career). So they draft Jonathan Hankins in the 2nd round (went onto become a full-time starter with Colts and Raiders). So they fill his spot with Snacks Harrison. Snacks gets traded and then draft Dexter Lawrence the following offseason (the immediate assumption was he would replace Snacks, but Tomlinson took over the NT position).
You're a homer. You are always going to twist things like that. There have been many positive posts on here with FA. I hear very few killing the Giants this offseason for their FA moves.
But keep exaggerating as you normally do. That's you schtick. For me - one who despises Gettleman- I'm fine with what he's done in FA. But now they better win enough.
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In comment 15206859 Eric from BBI said:
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Because they have let the solid DT walk (proven by the fact that that player went onto have a successful career with the other team) while the free agent the Giants signed is often off of the team in a couple of years.
So the Giants let the good player walk and cut the player they signed.
Look, not to sound like a dick, but I'm pretty confident I'm on the right side of this argument. If the Giants roster wasn't such a train wreck, we wouldn't be signing all of these free agents. When we started this offseason, this roster wasn't better than when Gettleman got here. You could argue it was worse.
There is no doubt the Giants have drafted poorly and that’s why they are in this mess. But you can deal with the salary cap implications by structuring contracts that don’t bite you 3 years later and by chasing over rated free agents based on need (did anyone really think Solder was that good?) and giving them large signing bonuses that are amortized over 5 yrs.
And as for 2nd round tackles, other than Linval Joseph in 2010, who else has left to go on to have a good career post Giants?
Linval Joseph leaves and they draft Marvin Austin in the 2nd round (not much of a career). So they draft Jonathan Hankins in the 2nd round (went onto become a full-time starter with Colts and Raiders). So they fill his spot with Snacks Harrison. Snacks gets traded and then draft Dexter Lawrence the following offseason (the immediate assumption was he would replace Snacks, but Tomlinson took over the NT position).
Only slight correction is that they Drafted Hankins before they let Joseph walk. Hankins played well his rookie year next to Joseph in 2013; the Giants were top 10 in run defense, Y/A.
Then they let Joseph walk, Hankins played poorly and the Giants had the WORST rushing defense Y/A in the league.
Oh, also should mention the genius signing of Jay Bromley in the 2014 third round.
Im not against any of the big 3 signings, but do feel Jackson is the biggest gamble. He essentially got a deal just less then we gave Bradberry last year.
I have more concerns with Jackson hitting that level of play then I did of Bradberry but they obvioualy valued him just about the same as they did with Bradberry.
We can barely afford to be wrong on 1 of these contracts but we need plus value on at least 2 of them.
What I left unsaid is it just doesn't matter what Golladay and Jackson do in 2021, but what they do in 2022, 2023, and hopefully beyond.
We received immediate satisfaction from those free agents. After the 2016 season was over, despite the bad playoff loss, we were all thrilled with all three players.
BBI was pretty happy when Vernon was traded. Damon was a surprise, but then there were a bunch of media reports about locker room issues (and BBI posters started saying, "I knew there was a problem when he said he didn't want to be considered a team leader!"). Most of BBI was content with Jenkins being waived. (There seemed to be a sense that it was a matter of time before he was gone).
So you are asking when did management go south on these players? Same time that fans did.
Remember, Golladay and Jackson apparently had "baggage" too. Everyone in the media said the Giants needed to meet with him to see if he was a good fit (reminiscent of Plaxico too). Then there was all the suggested stuff on why Jackson was cut (for Jenkins ironically).
Would it be a complete shock in two years if Golladay is cut after being suspended by Judge a couple of times?
I was upset when Jenkins got cut. I thought that when he was on the field he was still doing okay (also relative to who else we had for DB). I was upset he got cut for non-performance-based reasons.
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In comment 15206886 UConn4523 said:
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our coaching staff bears a lot of that blame. If Judge was the coach in 2016 do you think half the stuff with that FA class, Beckham, etc still happen?
You either think Judge is different or you don't. Sure he still has a ton to prove but if you aren't more comfortable with him coaching big ticket FA over McAdoo/Shurmur than I don't know what else to say on it.
IMO Judge mitigates some of the risk, and his staff (particularly on defense) should be able to get more out of these players than in years past.
I like Judge, but nobody has a crystal ball here. We all liked the direction of the team after the 2016 season as well. Nobody had doubts if McAdoo could coach veterans post-2016 either. It was only once things broke down in a way nobody saw coming that the leaks in the boat showed.
Well, ever think why it broke down? Not sure I agree that no one saw it coming either - the 2016 season still had a woeful offense that McAdoo couldn't fix, which is why he was brought here in the first place.
Well, yes, everyone was crying about the offensive line. It had been a problem since 2013. Yes, it was why the offense was bad. It was a lack of talent issue. If someone expected it to go away by hiring a head coach, that's just misguided.
I sensed that, too...
Instead we have players that seem like they actually want to play for Judge, despite hearing the contract last summer when the local beats expressed player disdain for running laps.
I think McAdoo let bad situations get worse and isn't HC material Shumur even worse.
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of the success this current regime has had...
I sensed that, too...
I haven't read every post here but i'll repeat for the 3rd time now what i've said, their stance is reasonable. However they left out a lot of critical information from their critique, and if in the full interview or whatever format this was, they continued to leave it out, then yes I do question them.
Is that fair or no?
But his best work has been in the free agency window. So might as well keep going to the well. Especially this year when so much is at stake with Jones's development as the potential long term QB solution. This is such a critical year...
I would have spent more wisely on different players, but you just had to eliminate all of the excuses for Jones; and try to buy your way to a conclusion on him.
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The new HC evaluated the talent, or lack thereof, in his vision for the team. They had to overpay for the talent available, especially for WR that don’t want to come to the NYG; then also is the premium they have to pay for the NY/NJ tax structure vs. a FL. or TX.
Almost all the multi year contracts are structured to be 2 year rental; you gotta believe a WR, DT, CB and likely OL are high on the draft board this year to be able to flip the 1 and multi year players out, specifically the under performers, ASAP.
Look how BB flips his roster. Hopefully we can develop players other teams want so we can get comp or trade picks the same was as BB.
His father was tired of losing too in the 1970s.
Wellington later admitted (loudly and often) that they made a mistake to stop building through the draft but through trades. He wanted instant improvement instead of doing it the old-fashioned way. Wellington said, "If I had to do it all over again, I would have built through the draft."
John may be going through the same learning process.
Great. Did George Young have any kids?
The Giants just did what we used to mock the Washington and the Philly "Dream Team" for doing.
This approach works if you've got Tom Brady behind a great line in Tampa. If you've got Daniel Jones behind a paper thin line with a running back that doesn't block...
Almost all the multi year contracts are structured to be 2 year rental; you gotta believe a WR, DT, CB and likely OL are high on the draft board this year to be able to flip the 1 and multi year players out, specifically the under performers, ASAP.
Look how BB flips his roster. Hopefully we can develop players other teams want so we can get comp or trade picks the same was as BB.
Good post.