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“New England was good,” an evaluator said. “It cost a lot of money, but they had to do something to try to turn it around there. I put the Giants in the same category. They spent too much money relative to what they acquired, but they needed to acquire what they acquired Some teams operate from a position of strength during free agency. The 2021 Giants were not one of them. Leonard Williams held the leverage in negotiations as a player the team acquired via trade, helping him land a three-year, $63 million contract to rank behind only Joey Bosa, Myles Garrett and Aaron Donald among defensive linemen. The Giants paid $18 million a year for Kenny Golladay when the next receiver in free agency earned $12.5 million. They paid $13 million a year for cornerback Adoree Jackson, who actually got a raise over what he was earning from Tennessee, the team that cut him. “What they paid was ridiculous to me, but who they got wasn’t a problem,” an exec said. “They had trouble getting receivers to go there, so the Golladay deal is kind of what happens. I don’t know how they got Adoree Jackson to $13 million. Adoree is talented but has been hurt a lot. Kyle Rudolph can be a good signing because they can go to 12 personnel now and be really good.” Giants owner John Mara acknowledged the high prices, joking that critics can call the team stupid, but not cheap. “The Adoree Jackson deal was inexcusable,” an exec said. “And then they went and jeopardized their future cap by converting guys to get all these deals done. The potential for disaster is high.” The team is betting on Golladay, who missed 11 games last season, and Jackson, who missed 18 games over the past two seasons. Rudolph is 31 and missed four games last season after a five-year run without missing any. “Going into free agency, the cap was lower and a lot of teams did not have much ammo,” an evaluator said. “The longer you waited, the bigger the bargains were going to be. Adoree Jackson was late in the process. He should have been a bargain, and he wasn’t. That was questionable.” |
But, they have to perform. If they don't then those were bad signings regardless of what they got paid.
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In comment 15206634 Jimmy Googs said:
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of the success this current regime has had...
I sensed that, too...
I haven't read every post here but i'll repeat for the 3rd time now what i've said, their stance is reasonable. However they left out a lot of critical information from their critique, and if in the full interview or whatever format this was, they continued to leave it out, then yes I do question them.
Is that fair or no?
It's fine Uconn. I read your posts all three times. At least you stepped up more than anyone else here...
Okay. I thought it might have been a Jones thing.
Risk is health. But that can be laid upon for other guys too, without the history of context behind it. Snacks was breaking down after 2016 - the appropriate move was to move him. The issue was his contract Reese and Co gave to him. Same for Vernon. He was never injured prior to joining the Giants yet, we saw it. Again, another albatross of a contract. These were longer deals especially JPP's and injuries paid a massive structure how they ended out.
IF Jackson and Golladay cannot stay healthy, yes, I'd agree they can be in trouble. The other moves like Rudolph and Booker hardly affect the future capital. Short term fixes that were necessary because of previous draft choices were unable to fill that gap how the (current) coaches wanted it to be.
It all comes down to coaching and health.
I *think* Judge is a better leader than Shurmur and McAdoo. Maybe he's not, and this year should be really telling. If Judge is the well prepared, emotionally intelligent, and accountable coach he appeared to be last year, the Giants are in good hands.
The factor you can't control is health. I get a little itchy about Jackson, Rudolph, and Golladay's hip (or heart).
A lot is made of Williams's durability as a testament to the investment. It's got to work both ways for the news guys too.
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In comment 15206802 Eric from BBI said:
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We have had to spend 2nd round picks on DTs to fill vacancies created by letting good DTs walk in free agency when they are about to receive their second contract.
Again, you are talking about Jerry Reese. And, we drafted Tomlinson in 2017. He wasn't really replacing anyone. Hankins never really panned out. We should have resigned Joseph but that was 2014.
But Gettleman just did what Reese did. He let up-and-coming 2nd-round DT walk in free agency. Hopefully Shelton can replace him. If he can't, we have another hole to fill. (If we move Dexter over, then we have a hole there).
I don't see a big difference in giving a guy a second contact and paying a FA that is getting his second contact. They both get market value money. This idea that you are getting a discount on a second contact is a falsehood.
We reallocate money from the dline, where we had depth, to cb. Nothing wrong with that.
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In comment 15206634 Jimmy Googs said:
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of the success this current regime has had...
I sensed that, too...
I haven't read every post here but i'll repeat for the 3rd time now what i've said, their stance is reasonable. However they left out a lot of critical information from their critique, and if in the full interview or whatever format this was, they continued to leave it out, then yes I do question them.
Is that fair or no?
I was really just adding sarcasm on top of Googs's sarcasm...
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players preferring to sign with winning teams.
Okay. I thought it might have been a Jones thing.
Jon, who's turned us down?
New York Giants Player Salaries - ( New Window )
agreed but the giants really have a low cost QB and a low cost o-line...two of most expensive positions in the NFL. I think the time to strike was now to see if DJ is the guy and make a legit playoff run or they will be rebuilding in a year or two anyway with another rookie QB if Jones isn't the guy to lead them to the playoffs.
The biggest risk I see is JJ and DG banking on the young offensive line. If it works out they will be labeled geniuses...if it tanks our season and DJ is running for his life and we can't establish the run...then it will completely backfire.
I think our passing game will be good and our defense (assuming we get one edge guy in the draft) should be easily a top 5-10 caliber defense with us having arguably the best secondary in the NFL.
but the problem is jones (who i don't think is the goods). they've bungled this roster so badly for so long that they felt like they needed to spend a shit ton before this team was ready to compete to properly evaluate jones. and i'll argue they haven't even done that properly with this crap line they have in front of him. and make no mistake it is a crap line.
i don't get the love for adoree jackson. yes he's better than what we've had, but i don't know if he's 13M a year good. especially in a good CB draft w Surtain and Horn.
this management does not deserve the benefit of the doubt when it comes to anything. they have not earned it. a lot of these guys they signed have injury history too. it's a very risky move this offseason, and you don't see many team do well using this approach.
Linval Joseph leaves and they draft Marvin Austin in the 2nd round (not much of a career). So they draft Jonathan Hankins in the 2nd round (went onto become a full-time starter with Colts and Raiders). So they fill his spot with Snacks Harrison. Snacks gets traded and then draft Dexter Lawrence the following offseason (the immediate assumption was he would replace Snacks, but Tomlinson took over the NT position).
Wasn't the decision to fire Reese made 3 years ago?
It all comes down to coaching and health.
I *think* Judge is a better leader than Shurmur and McAdoo. Maybe he's not, and this year should be really telling. If Judge is the well prepared, emotionally intelligent, and accountable coach he appeared to be last year, the Giants are in good hands.
The factor you can't control is health. I get a little itchy about Jackson, Rudolph, and Golladay's hip (or heart).
A lot is made of Williams's durability as a testament to the investment. It's got to work both ways for the news guys too.
Exactly right. The difference this year is gambling on guys without clean injury histories. That's the gamble. Not the utilization of free agency writ large as a tool to improve the roster.
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In comment 15206859 Eric from BBI said:
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Because they have let the solid DT walk (proven by the fact that that player went onto have a successful career with the other team) while the free agent the Giants signed is often off of the team in a couple of years.
So the Giants let the good player walk and cut the player they signed.
Look, not to sound like a dick, but I'm pretty confident I'm on the right side of this argument. If the Giants roster wasn't such a train wreck, we wouldn't be signing all of these free agents. When we started this offseason, this roster wasn't better than when Gettleman got here. You could argue it was worse.
There is no doubt the Giants have drafted poorly and that’s why they are in this mess. But you can deal with the salary cap implications by structuring contracts that don’t bite you 3 years later and by chasing over rated free agents based on need (did anyone really think Solder was that good?) and giving them large signing bonuses that are amortized over 5 yrs.
And as for 2nd round tackles, other than Linval Joseph in 2010, who else has left to go on to have a good career post Giants?
Linval Joseph leaves and they draft Marvin Austin in the 2nd round (not much of a career). So they draft Jonathan Hankins in the 2nd round (went onto become a full-time starter with Colts and Raiders). So they fill his spot with Snacks Harrison. Snacks gets traded and then draft Dexter Lawrence the following offseason (the immediate assumption was he would replace Snacks, but Tomlinson took over the NT position).
this has been their problem for 15 years. they can't fix positions. the teams spends draft picks and free agent dollars (significant picks and significant dollars) to fix the CB position and OL position and they never get fixed. and because of this they can't improve other positions and depth because every year they have to spend more picks or more money on the positions they can't fix
That's exactly what I think as well -- they are signing players who they evaluate as possessing various traits, and are confident in their coaches' ability to maximize those traits.
In years past I'd have been very skeptical of that, but not with Judge running the show.
this has been their problem for 15 years. they can't fix positions. the teams spends draft picks and free agent dollars (significant picks and significant dollars) to fix the CB position and OL position and they never get fixed. and because of this they can't improve other positions and depth because every year they have to spend more picks or more money on the positions they can't fix
Do you think it looked like they started to fix each of the 3 levels of the defense last year? and the OL over the back half of the year?
With the youngest starting 22 in the NFL and a first year coaching staff there are reasons to believe they are starting to fix things (and bringing things home to this thread the veteran acquisitions of Bradberry, Williams, Ryan, Martinez, Peppers were all a big part of that improvement).
Again, there's risk associated to this, but CB2 has been a glaring weakness for a while now and I'm happy we upgraded. If Shelton is merely adequate than it was worth it, IMO.
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this has been their problem for 15 years. they can't fix positions. the teams spends draft picks and free agent dollars (significant picks and significant dollars) to fix the CB position and OL position and they never get fixed. and because of this they can't improve other positions and depth because every year they have to spend more picks or more money on the positions they can't fix
Do you think it looked like they started to fix each of the 3 levels of the defense last year? and the OL over the back half of the year?
With the youngest starting 22 in the NFL and a first year coaching staff there are reasons to believe they are starting to fix things (and bringing things home to this thread the veteran acquisitions of Bradberry, Williams, Ryan, Martinez, Peppers were all a big part of that improvement).
CB was not fixed. they had 1 CB who can play. this after using a shit ton of picks, including a first rounder on baker. OL was not fixed despite paying a shit ton for solder and zeitler, using a first on thomas, and a second on hernandez
This spending spree will answer both hopefully.
This spending spree will answer both hopefully.
i don't know if it will because they are still stuck with the clapper
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In comment 15207017 GiantsFan84 said:
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this has been their problem for 15 years. they can't fix positions. the teams spends draft picks and free agent dollars (significant picks and significant dollars) to fix the CB position and OL position and they never get fixed. and because of this they can't improve other positions and depth because every year they have to spend more picks or more money on the positions they can't fix
Do you think it looked like they started to fix each of the 3 levels of the defense last year? and the OL over the back half of the year?
With the youngest starting 22 in the NFL and a first year coaching staff there are reasons to believe they are starting to fix things (and bringing things home to this thread the veteran acquisitions of Bradberry, Williams, Ryan, Martinez, Peppers were all a big part of that improvement).
CB was not fixed. they had 1 CB who can play. this after using a shit ton of picks, including a first rounder on baker. OL was not fixed despite paying a shit ton for solder and zeitler, using a first on thomas, and a second on hernandez
"fixed" is a misnomer. Was there improvement?
This spending spree will answer both hopefully.
Or it at least helps increase the probability of both continuing to improve as opposed to regressing.
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In comment 15207023 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15207017 GiantsFan84 said:
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this has been their problem for 15 years. they can't fix positions. the teams spends draft picks and free agent dollars (significant picks and significant dollars) to fix the CB position and OL position and they never get fixed. and because of this they can't improve other positions and depth because every year they have to spend more picks or more money on the positions they can't fix
Do you think it looked like they started to fix each of the 3 levels of the defense last year? and the OL over the back half of the year?
With the youngest starting 22 in the NFL and a first year coaching staff there are reasons to believe they are starting to fix things (and bringing things home to this thread the veteran acquisitions of Bradberry, Williams, Ryan, Martinez, Peppers were all a big part of that improvement).
CB was not fixed. they had 1 CB who can play. this after using a shit ton of picks, including a first rounder on baker. OL was not fixed despite paying a shit ton for solder and zeitler, using a first on thomas, and a second on hernandez
"fixed" is a misnomer. Was there improvement?
i will repeat they had 1 CB that can play last year. CB was so bad they felt the need to go out and pay jackson 13M a year
do you understand how many resources they've spent on this secondary?
2 starting CBs are making 13M and 15M (both free agent signings). ryan is making 10M (free agent signing). peppers was a centerpiece in the OBJ trade. mckinney a HIGH 2nd round pick. and this is on top of the failed picks of baker, beal, love, ballentine, holmes is TBD, yiadom cost a 7th i believe. that is an enormous amount of resources.
and as for the OL i'd say it's as bad now as its ever been
From a pure market standpoint I like free agency more. The player has a body of work in the NFL you can judge, and you have as good of opportunity as anyone to sign the player.
I don't think there's anything inherently that beneficial in re-signing your own player, that outweighs finding the right talent and need in the open market.
Sure DG has made other mistakes, but if you want to rebuild through the draft you need to have more picks given injuries and busts.
I don't think that mistake will happen again. I don't think as much power sits with DG anymore.
do you understand how many resources they've spent on this secondary?
Do you understand the resource trends with investment in DBs? Do you know how much Miami has invested in their DBs? Or the Ravens? Or the Pats? (hint: more than the NYG).
In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:
and as for the OL i'd say it's as bad now as its ever been
Don't agree on that but you are free to your opinion. Last year over the second half of the year with 2 currently unsigned backup RBs they set a franchise record for the most consecutive games with 100+ yards rushing.
This team desperately needed a legit NFL starting caliber CB2 and they overpaid to get it. Hopefully Jackson stays healthy and delivers.
all the free agents in the world won't get this ship turned around.
We need more hits than misses, and we need that for several consecutive Drafts.
Otherwise, 2014 to 2030 will look just like 1964 to 1980.
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do you understand how many resources they've spent on this secondary?
Do you understand the resource trends with investment in DBs? Do you know how much Miami has invested in their DBs? Or the Ravens? Or the Pats? (hint: more than the NYG).
In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:
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and as for the OL i'd say it's as bad now as its ever been
Don't agree on that but you are free to your opinion. Last year over the second half of the year with 2 currently unsigned backup RBs they set a franchise record for the most consecutive games with 100+ yards rushing.
i don't want this to come across like i'm arguing with you because i'm not.
but how was the pass blocking during that stretch? who on this line right now is any good outside of thomas and gates? and that line had zeitler who is no longer on the team and was arguably their best lineman. i do not consider that improvement
If, in fact, the risk is significant, then the NFL execs are right and the Giants are "stupid."
Are the Giants stupid? Maybe. It depends on the reliability of the medical exams given to the free agents before the the Giants signed them.
If the medical exams confirm that the injuries causing the missed games in 2020 are no longer problems for 2021, then fine. If the Giants can't reliably confirm the health status of their three top free agents, then shame on them.
i've said on this and other threads what i would have done. i would have accepted that the team is rebuilding and it would take another couple seasons of gradual improvement primarily through the draft. i would have wrote jones off as a bad pick and worked on improving the remaining part of the roster with the draft. i would have already extended peppers.
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In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:
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do you understand how many resources they've spent on this secondary?
Do you understand the resource trends with investment in DBs? Do you know how much Miami has invested in their DBs? Or the Ravens? Or the Pats? (hint: more than the NYG).
In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:
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and as for the OL i'd say it's as bad now as its ever been
Don't agree on that but you are free to your opinion. Last year over the second half of the year with 2 currently unsigned backup RBs they set a franchise record for the most consecutive games with 100+ yards rushing.
i don't want this to come across like i'm arguing with you because i'm not.
but how was the pass blocking during that stretch? who on this line right now is any good outside of thomas and gates? and that line had zeitler who is no longer on the team and was arguably their best lineman. i do not consider that improvement
on the whole pressure rate went down as did turnovers. They had a few poor games against strong teams when Jones was hurt (AZ, CLE, BAL) and OL statistics aren't example easy to analyze but the back half of the year I believe was statistically a big improvement from the front half. And a big reason why they went 5-3 in their last 8.
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just don't pretend that 10M of dead cap space is significant. It's not, and it's a dumb argument to be honest.
The NFL salary cap is not actually that large when you take into account 53 contracts. So anything above 5 percent is "significant", especially when it is year after year after year:
NYG dead money as a percentage of the cap by year:
2021: 5.6 percent (so far)
2020: 10.8 percent
2019: 28.1 percent
2018: 24.7 percent
So yes, the trend is down, but you can see from 2018 and 2019 that when you screw up in a FA signing, it can crush you like 2018 and 2019.
You are argue 5.6 percent doesn't really matter. It does in that it prevents you from keeping someone like Tomlinson or signing another reasonably priced free agent. It's like interest on debt. It's just wasted money.
I would argue that the degree to which it matters depends on a combination with other factors that determine whether or not you are a good team. For example, 10 million dollars in dead money probably means nothing to a relatively stacked team that annually makes the playoffs. But that amount of money could be both a problem and a symptom of larger issues to a team that is or has been routinely bad, such as ours.
I wouldn't have paid that kind of money for Golladay and Jackson, who combined started 7 games last year.
I'd have paid Williams and Tomlinson, and focused the remainder of FA on the Ross/Shelton/Ragland/Odenigbo type signings...short deals for small dollars. One exception though...I would have gone a different route at backup QB. I'd have targeted Brissett or Tyrod Taylor. Both are more expensive than Glennon, but it's still a drop in the bucket to what Golladay and Jackson got. Signing Glennon tells me:
- They don't want to make Jones uncomfortable
- The Jones injury freaked them out, and he's going to be used less as a runner in 2021
I do agree with cosmicj above that Jones is unlikely to see a second contract here, and thus the Golladay and Jackson expenditures won't be too painful on the cap long term.
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In comment 15207052 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:
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do you understand how many resources they've spent on this secondary?
Do you understand the resource trends with investment in DBs? Do you know how much Miami has invested in their DBs? Or the Ravens? Or the Pats? (hint: more than the NYG).
In comment 15207042 GiantsFan84 said:
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and as for the OL i'd say it's as bad now as its ever been
Don't agree on that but you are free to your opinion. Last year over the second half of the year with 2 currently unsigned backup RBs they set a franchise record for the most consecutive games with 100+ yards rushing.
i don't want this to come across like i'm arguing with you because i'm not.
but how was the pass blocking during that stretch? who on this line right now is any good outside of thomas and gates? and that line had zeitler who is no longer on the team and was arguably their best lineman. i do not consider that improvement
on the whole pressure rate went down as did turnovers. They had a few poor games against strong teams when Jones was hurt (AZ, CLE, BAL) and OL statistics aren't example easy to analyze but the back half of the year I believe was statistically a big improvement from the front half. And a big reason why they went 5-3 in their last 8.
they went 5-3 because of the following
eagles (horrible team)
bengals (backup QB and barely won)
cowboys (backup QB and barely won)
wft (kyle allen QB got injured in the beginning of the game)
seahawks - a very good win
The Giants roster needed significant upgrades to be competitive. Regardless of the cause, that is where they were. They gambled on these guys being a big piece of that solution. Like everything else, it will be brilliant if it works and stupid if it doesn't. I don't know that I would have done anything differently if I was trying to snap out of a very long streak of not being competitive.
But to think someone must have a bias if they don't like signing Adoree Jackson to a significant raise after his current team just cut him to avoid paying him $10M is a bit silly.
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what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...
I wouldn't have paid that kind of money for Golladay and Jackson, who combined started 7 games last year.
I'd have paid Williams and Tomlinson, and focused the remainder of FA on the Ross/Shelton/Ragland/Odenigbo type signings...short deals for small dollars. One exception though...I would have gone a different route at backup QB. I'd have targeted Brissett or Tyrod Taylor. Both are more expensive than Glennon, but it's still a drop in the bucket to what Golladay and Jackson got. Signing Glennon tells me:
- They don't want to make Jones uncomfortable
- The Jones injury freaked them out, and he's going to be used less as a runner in 2021
I do agree with cosmicj above that Jones is unlikely to see a second contract here, and thus the Golladay and Jackson expenditures won't be too painful on the cap long term.
All fair, I would have been on board as well. Truth is I didn't want Golladay at that price but, and its a big but, I expect all FA prices to go up next year so i'm curious what his contract will look like compared to next years market.
I tend agree the Giants probably went overboard on FA spending and there is inherent risk in giving any player with injury history more money than their original team would offer them. However, the Giants will still have Jones on cheap rookie deal through 2023. All of the FA signings with the exception of KG expire in 2023. While we may not get the wins we expected out of the FA signings we hope for, I think the Giants are set up to take full advantage of Jones' rookie deal window in terms of surrounding him with talent. If not now, when?
they went 5-3 because of the following
eagles (horrible team)
bengals (backup QB and barely won)
cowboys (backup QB and barely won)
wft (kyle allen QB got injured in the beginning of the game)
seahawks - a very good win
either wins are wins and losses are losses or that game both ways. the week prior to the PHI win they played TB down to the last play of the game.
And the backup QB stuff is a little silly since they were playing with Colt McCoy in a bunch of those games. For all the hyperbole about his performance last year he threw 1 touchdown.
This team desperately needed a legit NFL starting caliber CB2 and they overpaid to get it. Hopefully Jackson stays healthy and delivers.
Jackson is a high risk/reward investment. If you know anything about my opinions, I am pro secondary and think it's the area to virtually always invest.
This is the one investment where I'm nervous.
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Seems to be the only one that the execs are confused about and I can see that. The Giants paid him A LOT of money despite his injuries and inconsistency. The talent is there and he has shown elite coverage potential at times but 2020 wasn’t a good year for him and then he got cut.
This team desperately needed a legit NFL starting caliber CB2 and they overpaid to get it. Hopefully Jackson stays healthy and delivers.
Jackson is a high risk/reward investment. If you know anything about my opinions, I am pro secondary and think it's the area to virtually always invest.
This is the one investment where I'm nervous.
I agree. I'd have preferred a 1 year deal for Malcolm Butler (or another veteran) to both mitigate risk and have more money to spend elsewhere (then reinvest that $ in Trai Turner or Tomlinson maybe).
I can see the potential upside in a highly talented young player at a premium position with a lot more speed though. It just seems odd TEN would give up on him the way they did. Though I guess the Bears did the same with Floyd last year.
If kept the relative same basics then would have only spent up to what was available without restructuring any current deals and toned down the salary escalators in some others. This probably means losing either Golladay or Jackson as the result of that, but so be it.
If didn't keep the same basics:
- Would not have given Williams any deal once it hit $20M/year. Tag and trade if able. If not walk away and
would have then gotten a deal done with Tomlinson.
- Would not have done Golladay deal. Would have focused dollars on younger TE (Hunter most attractive) versus Rudolph. Would have traded or cut Engram.
- Would have used higher dollars to add something into the interior OL. Guard or Center (if Center, then moved Gates to RG).
- Would not have bothered with Booker & Toilolo deals.
- If the above allows for Jackson deal then okay. This was an odd one though for certain.
- Focus of Day 1 and Day 2 of Draft: WR, OL & TE
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what would you guys have done? Same roster, same cap, same everything only its the night before free agency and go...
i've said on this and other threads what i would have done. i would have accepted that the team is rebuilding and it would take another couple seasons of gradual improvement primarily through the draft. i would have wrote jones off as a bad pick and worked on improving the remaining part of the roster with the draft. i would have already extended peppers.
LOL. So, you would extend Peppers based on one year but written off Jones as a failed pick? I'm really fucking glad you aren't making the moves.