I apologize for the delay. One of my sources was dealing with a delay. I have two sources I trust when it comes to giants inside info. I generally want to wait within a month of the draft to get more fleshed out details. Here’s what I’ve gathered so far.
- Giants have put most of their research into the EDGE class. There are only 2 guys that would stop them from going EDGE In the 1st round. Kyle Pitts and DeVonta Smith.
- Penn State pro day was more about Oweh than Parsons. Coach Spencer likes Parsons. Thinks he’s a good kid. But he’s be taking on a bit of a “handler” role if they were to draft Parsons. Spencer really likes Oweh. Thinks he’s has a wealth of unlocked potential.
- If one of Giants preferred offensive targets is gone. They’ll look to go EDGE. They would like to trade down to get an EDGE and have had preliminary talks with NE depending on who is available.
- If they settle to pick at 11 and both offensive guys are gone they. Select one of the EDGEs. There doesn’t seem to be a consensus yet but the belief is that Kwity Paye would be the choice because of his versatility standing and hand down. They like his personality fit and how well he takes to coaching. Love that he has a strong run defense game and believe he will grow as a pass rusher.
- if they are able to select one of the offensive weapons their is belief they will trade up from their 2nd round pick to select an EDGE in the back part of the 1st round. (I’m personally thinking this sounds like Engram + 2nd to Buffalo for #30).
- Giants like their OL pieces. Will not go OL in the 1st round unless something unforeseen happens and Penei Sewell is available. Then it’ll be hard for them not to consider. But they don’t see that as likely with the teams selecting in front of them. Belief is round 2 or 3 depending on when EDGE is selected.
- If Giants don’t go WR 1st round look for them to as a developmental piece Day 3.
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In comment 15208029 Giantimistic said:
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for the team and our free agents performed without getting injured, Jones takes the jump that it seems like the staff think he will take, the oline is solid as it sounds like the coaching staff thinks and the defense gets even better than last year then we will be competing in the playoffs.
I understand those are ifs, but there are a possibility. If that is all true, the one major thing this team is missing is an edge that can get to the passer on their own. Imagine if our secondary as good as it could be and we can get to the QB with 3 or 4 players.
Here's the catch and I'll use OL as an example: If you draft Slater for guard, and assuming everyone is right about RT being okay, you've just assured Giants of a running game. And if you have a running game - it means Jones will have time to pass. And now that they have a number 1 WR - their offense should be good.
And as for defense- you get your two best DL back, you added a little pass rush by getting two other OLB's back from injury and a FA pickup, and another FA pickup as ILB as a probable improvement to what they had. Along with you got a number 2 corner. And you have McKinney back for a full year. As a result your defense as of this moment should be at least as good (conservatively) as last year. And now you trade up for an Edge - haven’t you possibly made your team stronger overall because now your offense instead of being filled with as many "maybes" is a bit more assured of being good while still maintaining a good defense?
Slater is good enough to ensure your offense will be to a certain pretty good standard while now we have to hope two guard spots are okay. And you should prefer to try to win with balance rather be "very strong" say at defense and be just "decent" with offense, right? Try to achieve being good at both.
Well. As an exercise, which do you think works better?
1. Paye
2. Landon Dickerson/Wyatt Davis
Or
1. Slater
2. Carlos Basham?
I think you get the better EDGE prospect in the 1st scenario while still getting a very good IOL. Slater is a great prospect but if you believe you’ve got your tackles of the future (all indications are that is how the Giants feel about Thomas and Peart) then you drafted a Good Guard at 11 but he’s not Zach Martin, Nelson, or Brandon Scherff. As far as being a guard, is he really much better than Davis, Dickerson, or Cleveland?
Now, if the Giants weren’t sure about Thomas or Peart then I can see them wanting and OL that offers tackle insurance, but Slater wouldn’t match their profile for tackles. They drafted the two longest armed OTs in last year’s draft. Kept Solder who is a long OT, and had Cam Fleming as OT who is also very long. They’ve shown they value length at the OT position.
Slater is supposedly much better than any guards you mention is what I’ve read – is that Slater is going to be extremely good. I guess that is the catch. What you are hearing or what you think is that Slater isn't much better than the 2nd rounders vs taking an Edge at 11 vs getting one early 2nd round? OFC they are the experts and the best way to evaluate is wait a season or two etc.
I hope the Giants are right if they go through the course you mention. But I don’t feel the last 3 drafts with Barkley, Jones and Thomas the have been though. With Jones jury still out and maybe he can be really good. So maybe they nailed it and getting the QB right is everything. However jury still out.
But as for Thomas he was regarded as being 3rd best tackle after season-end, correct? They took the higher floor guy. Last year I thought he was 3rd best before the draft so needless to say I wasn’t enamored with the pick. Didn't "hate it." Just thought they could've done better.
And Barkley they took the high-floor guy destined to be Gold Jacket but as some have questioned for a rebuilding team and a position susceptible to get banged up early, he definitely has not been worth the 2nd overall pick.
As a result, I'm questioning their value/decisions on top-tier players. Therefore, I’m also questioning their view on Slater too. Am I wrong to question them on this based on the points I've just made?
Judge has a very different kind of player in mind from DG.
giantstock (not that you asked me), I have zero issues with your skepticism, but a bit too early to pass final judgment on Thomas? Wirfs (at RT) and Wills certainly appeared to be better on balance last season, Becton at times too, health issues there. In retrospect, Barkley has turned out to be a very flawed pick; even before the fact, there were questions as to the wisdom of picking him at 2 overall. I hope JJ is inside Gettelman's heat and at the controls.
Actually I tend to disagree a little bit. This draft has the potential to play nicely into the hands of the Giants. Whichever direction they go they are going to get a really good prospect in the first. Then the strengths on the second day and into the 3rd are WR, CB and OL, the positions they are probably looking at. Time will tell!
That video was helpful. The kid has talent. And he is apparently a terrific young man, which is important. If only he can learn to rush the passer. I mean, if you are going to be an edge rusher... you better be able to rush.
I would question why you think that. Right now the ends are Williams and likely Shelton. Paye isn't playing LB. We know Williams doesn't have a problem setting. On many plays Lawrence pushes outside. Shelton is a solid player.
Of the concerns with the defense, the bigger red flag to me is who's playing lineback in this 3-4 alignment.
Judge has a very different kind of player in mind from DG.
Please explain.
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Watch this video on him setting the edge. I can 100% question our ability to set an edge right now with our current defenders. Right now that is the biggest weakness of our defense imo. Link - ( New Window )
I would question why you think that. Right now the ends are Williams and likely Shelton. Paye isn't playing LB. We know Williams doesn't have a problem setting. On many plays Lawrence pushes outside. Shelton is a solid player.
Of the concerns with the defense, the bigger red flag to me is who's playing lineback in this 3-4 alignment.
The two ILBs are probably going to be Martinez and either Crowder or Ragland.
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Watch this video on him setting the edge. I can 100% question our ability to set an edge right now with our current defenders. Right now that is the biggest weakness of our defense imo. Link - ( New Window )
I would question why you think that. Right now the ends are Williams and likely Shelton. Paye isn't playing LB. We know Williams doesn't have a problem setting. On many plays Lawrence pushes outside. Shelton is a solid player.
Of the concerns with the defense, the bigger red flag to me is who's playing lineback in this 3-4 alignment.
Shelton will be the NT.
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Watch this video on him setting the edge. I can 100% question our ability to set an edge right now with our current defenders. Right now that is the biggest weakness of our defense imo. Link - ( New Window )
I would question why you think that. Right now the ends are Williams and likely Shelton. Paye isn't playing LB. We know Williams doesn't have a problem setting. On many plays Lawrence pushes outside. Shelton is a solid player.
Of the concerns with the defense, the bigger red flag to me is who's playing lineback in this 3-4 alignment.
Well, OLB is going to be a bit of a puzzle. Carter and Ximines are both coming off injury (particularly Carter, who has failed to impress in three seasons), there’s questions as to Odenigbo is more of a 4-3 end or 3-4 rushbacker, and Brown, Coughlin, Lalos, and Anderson are unproven, particularly Lalos who only played in six games. For all we know (and not my favorite course of action since I’m a fan of the old-school way of getting pressure with four and dropping the rest into coverage), the Giants will roll with a 3-3-5 alignment with Lawrence and Williams at end and Shelton at nose tackle, Martinez at MIKE with a combo of Brown, Coughlin, Crowder, and Ragland rotating at the OLB spots depending on what’s needed (Judge and Graham are a fan of this method), and a defensive backfield of Bradberry, Peppers, McKinney, Ryan or Holmes at the slot/nickelback, and Jackson.
giantstock (not that you asked me), I have zero issues with your skepticism, but a bit too early to pass final judgment on Thomas? Wirfs (at RT) and Wills certainly appeared to be better on balance last season, Becton at times too, health issues there. In retrospect, Barkley has turned out to be a very flawed pick; even before the fact, there were questions as to the wisdom of picking him at 2 overall. I hope JJ is inside Gettelman's heat and at the controls.
Thanks ColHow.
I just want to add I have a bias in that I despise Dave G. HOWEVER HOWEVER if the Giants to start to win I’ll change completely. Especially if it is more than 1 year etc. I’ll completely flip. I just want them to win.
So with that said- every one of the 3 picks DG has made previously of SB, DJ, and AT can become terrific overall. I am in no way writing them off – just saying I’m skeptical – though I am not skeptical of ATHomas being “good.”
All I was saying about AThomas is that in my view pre-draft I thought he was 3rd best but recognized through reading that he had highest floor. So that doesn’t mean I think he stinks or is average. Just a potential “missed opportunity” for someone I thought to be better. Anyway. if I thought he was 3rd best pre-draft and he was 3rd best after season 1, then naturally I’m still projecting he will be 3rd best. That is still okay however. But just “okay” instead of “wow – we nailed that.”
So far there hasn’t there has not been any “wows” from the DG 1st rd draft,- though only one clear bust. I just think if you get the high quality Guard, then that raises the chances that Barkley and Jones can become “wow.”
I just think Dave G is content on wanting to play 17-14 / 20-17 football. I think he has an opportunity for more while in round 2 (or trade up in round 1) to get his Edge.
Barkley running with less penetration imo makes him exponentially better. Same with Jones in a clean pocket and a running game. Then he could “manage the shit” out of the game. These are two enormous pieces that we rely on to play huge.
Why risk having to put it on Judge to have to radically coach up his young OL that weren’t that good last year- or draft a lesser guard in rd 2 (or later)? But ofc if Slater is not that highly valued then okay – pass on him. Or if Paye is projected to be a star early on year 1 or year 2– okay.
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In comment 15207869 robbieballs2003 said:
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Watch this video on him setting the edge. I can 100% question our ability to set an edge right now with our current defenders. Right now that is the biggest weakness of our defense imo. Link - ( New Window )
I would question why you think that. Right now the ends are Williams and likely Shelton. Paye isn't playing LB. We know Williams doesn't have a problem setting. On many plays Lawrence pushes outside. Shelton is a solid player.
Of the concerns with the defense, the bigger red flag to me is who's playing lineback in this 3-4 alignment.
Shelton will be the NT.
I could believe this. And that's even more a reason why they would have no need to draft Paye. You're not displacing Williams or Lawrence.
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In comment 15208490 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 15207869 robbieballs2003 said:
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Watch this video on him setting the edge. I can 100% question our ability to set an edge right now with our current defenders. Right now that is the biggest weakness of our defense imo. Link - ( New Window )
I would question why you think that. Right now the ends are Williams and likely Shelton. Paye isn't playing LB. We know Williams doesn't have a problem setting. On many plays Lawrence pushes outside. Shelton is a solid player.
Of the concerns with the defense, the bigger red flag to me is who's playing lineback in this 3-4 alignment.
Shelton will be the NT.
I could believe this. And that's even more a reason why they would have no need to draft Paye. You're not displacing Williams or Lawrence.
Paye has played 4-3 end. Has not played standing up. Doesn’t make a lot of sense.
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In comment 15208498 jeff57 said:
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In comment 15208490 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 15207869 robbieballs2003 said:
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Watch this video on him setting the edge. I can 100% question our ability to set an edge right now with our current defenders. Right now that is the biggest weakness of our defense imo. Link - ( New Window )
I would question why you think that. Right now the ends are Williams and likely Shelton. Paye isn't playing LB. We know Williams doesn't have a problem setting. On many plays Lawrence pushes outside. Shelton is a solid player.
Of the concerns with the defense, the bigger red flag to me is who's playing lineback in this 3-4 alignment.
Shelton will be the NT.
I could believe this. And that's even more a reason why they would have no need to draft Paye. You're not displacing Williams or Lawrence.
Paye has played 4-3 end. Has not played standing up. Doesn’t make a lot of sense.
A lot of teams ran with a four-lineman approach in the 80s, when the 3-4 was big, on passing downs; this includes the Giants where Curtis McGriff would sit and George Martin was the nickel rusher. With Judge and Graham, shouldn’t there be something for every occasion since Graham likes to mix and match players based on what they’re facing from the offense?
JPP was situational most of his rookie year since Osi Umenyiora started at RDE most of 2010 and I’m not sure what the Giants intended for Michael Strahan when they drafted him in the second round of ‘93 while they were still using the 3-4.
Anyways, why can’t the Giants use a 4-3 or a 4-2-5?
The Giants have ZERO quality ER’s. They have to roll the dice in the draft because that’s the only place they’re going to find them.
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JPP was situational most of his rookie year since Osi Umenyiora started at RDE most of 2010 and I’m not sure what the Giants intended for Michael Strahan when they drafted him in the secondhttps://twitter.com/CorkGaines/status/1378472030744502273?s=19 round of ‘93 while they were still using the 3-4.
Anyways, why can’t the Giants use a 4-3 or a 4-2-5?
They use all kinds of sets now. The sticking point is you're using the 11th overall pick on a substitution player when you have an owner talking about needing to win more games and plenty of needs at other roster spots.
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In comment 15208552 jeff57 said:
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JPP was situational most of his rookie year since Osi Umenyiora started at RDE most of 2010 and I’m not sure what the Giants intended for Michael Strahan when they drafted him in the secondhttps://twitter.com/CorkGaines/status/1378472030744502273?s=19 round of ‘93 while they were still using the 3-4.
Anyways, why can’t the Giants use a 4-3 or a 4-2-5?
They use all kinds of sets now. The sticking point is you're using the 11th overall pick on a substitution player when you have an owner talking about needing to win more games and plenty of needs at other roster spots.
Well, I’d prefer getting an edge in the second or third rounds, but if the Giants are going for edge in the first, so be it.
Your mock does not include Jayson Oweh going all 32 picks in Round One. That seems to contradict your other info.
Can you clarify?
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The other day you did a 1st round mock that confused me.
Your mock does not include Jayson Oweh going all 32 picks in Round One. That seems to contradict your other info.
Can you clarify?
I did the Mock before speaking with my sources. Also, once you get to 20-32 in a mock it’s pretty much all based on your own personal board. I don’t value Oweh that highly. I get wanting to get on the tools, but he seemed quite bleh in his game.
His stats are even more suspect than Paye; in seven games in 2020 he didn’t record a sack.
Any specific reason you believe this? There's only one year of draft history to go there and he has a ton of connections at big time college football programs. Drafting a guy from UGA and Alabama isn't that unusual. Did he have any connections to UConn, UCLA, or Oregon?
Well, Oweh is the highest-graded Edge at NFL.com, in fact he's graded higher than any DE, too, so there is that.
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Late 1st round maybe. Great Blue North has him as their #2 DE... must be something their I don't recognize.
Well, Oweh is the highest-graded Edge at NFL.com, in fact he's graded higher than any DE, too, so there is that.
A pass rusher who had no sacks at 11? 🤔
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In comment 15208947 ATL_Giants said: Late 1st round maybe. Great Blue North has him as their #2 DE... must be something their I don't recognize.
Well, Oweh is the highest-graded Edge at NFL.com, in fact he's graded higher than any DE, too, so there is that.
A pass rusher who had no sacks at 11? 🤔
Well, as Chad Reuter wrote:
I'll admit that I'd prefer Oweh after a slight trade down, say with NE. His comp at NFL.com is Bud Dupree, who went #22 overall. Oweh is not a finished product by any means, but this was Lance Zierlein's assessment:
All signs point towards them trading up early, likely from the 2nd round back into the 1st for the 5th year option. If Oweh is still on the board at 30 I think they are going to go hard after him.
Also a good chance they move up from 11 in front of the cowboys. In a year with a bunch of qbs going early there is going to be super-premium talent between 6-9. Wouldn't be surprised if they think there's a guy there that maked this team instantly better.
All signs point towards them trading up early, likely from the 2nd round back into the 1st for the 5th year option. If Oweh is still on the board at 30 I think they are going to go hard after him.
Is this just a guess or do you have any info?
Also a good chance they move up from 11 in front of the cowboys. In a year with a bunch of qbs going early there is going to be super-premium talent between 6-9. Wouldn't be surprised if they think there's a guy there that maked this team instantly better.
Dude we used a 7th, relax.
In comment 15209067 UGADawgs7 said:
Is this just a guess or do you have any info?
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They have 83 players signed right now, before the draft, UDFAs, camp cuts etc. They have a fully fleshed out roster with no huge holes but desperately in need of game-breaking talent. They are in win-now mode, with Gettleman desperately needing a playoff berth.
All signs point towards them trading up early, likely from the 2nd round back into the 1st for the 5th year option. If Oweh is still on the board at 30 I think they are going to go hard after him.
Also a good chance they move up from 11 in front of the cowboys. In a year with a bunch of qbs going early there is going to be super-premium talent between 6-9. Wouldn't be surprised if they think there's a guy there that maked this team instantly better.
Just a guess based on circumstance and history
True, I guess all coaches tend to draft players from programs they are somewhat familiar with.
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they have 6 picks.
Dude we used a 7th, relax.
I dont get the relax comment.. but be that as it may. The Giants dont have many picks that they can package to move up. They are more likely to trade down than move up.
Personally, I still hope they trade down and get another day 2 pick ... Maybe Collins (at 15), then a WR, G and TE on day 2 followed by another WR, G and RB (either of the Louisiana guys) on day 3.
Maybe they’ll shock us all, trade down with NE then unload Engram to get another pick on day 1.
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In comment 15209083 blueblood said:
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they have 6 picks.
Dude we used a 7th, relax.
I dont get the relax comment.. but be that as it may. The Giants dont have many picks that they can package to move up. They are more likely to trade down than move up.
Theyve got picks next year, theyve got engram. It's for sure a little eaier with some comp picks but you start with 7 and we have 6. You can move around if you want to.
Let's go impact D (Parsons). Fill the OL with the 2nd or 3rd and get ready to roll.
Whatever they do we just want to add a very good football player. We need them imo
Have you watched Rousseau's film? He's not good.
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Watch this video on him setting the edge. I can 100% question our ability to set an edge right now with our current defenders. Right now that is the biggest weakness of our defense imo. Link - ( New Window )
I would question why you think that. Right now the ends are Williams and likely Shelton. Paye isn't playing LB. We know Williams doesn't have a problem setting. On many plays Lawrence pushes outside. Shelton is a solid player.
Of the concerns with the defense, the bigger red flag to me is who's playing lineback in this 3-4 alignment.
Shelton is not an edge defender. He is a nose tackle. He can play the 3-technique, but he is not an ER ever.
Shelton is not an edge defender. He is a nose tackle. He can play the 3-technique, but he is not an ER ever.
So our down edges are Lawrence and Williams. I'm good with that. Paye isn't a linebacker. So why are we looking at linemen edges at 11? Really shouldn't be.
I have a feeling only 4 of the QBs go in front of us but drafts are weird. Who saw Clelin Ferrell going 4 to the Raiders 2 years ago?
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I see people bringing him up but the OP doesn't mention him.
Only time Waddle was mentioned was me asking who they would take if both were on the board and the answer was “Smith is the one they really want.” I don’t know if that would mean over Pitts as well but it’s Smith over Waddle.
I can definitely see Smith over Waddle if a team is not 100% sure on the medicals. I would not be shocked if Waddle falls further than expected on Draft Day unless he can work out prior.