who aren't afflicted with the BBI epidemic called - "Dumb" - for rightfully pointing out that it is indeed dumb to castigate Cosell for liking Rosen as a QB out of UCLA.
Posters do that to other posters here almost everyday. They do the "call out" routine by digging up old posts where someone has opinion about a prospect that didn't work out. As if being wrong about a prospect automatically disqualifies you from ever again taking a position on any other prospect.
I'm hoping the CDC can eventually find a vaccine for Dumb; and many BBIers can have access to it. It would certainly help BBI discourse going forward...
Great. I guess next time when one of us criticizes Dave Gettleman and it gets thrown back in our face that we aren't a scout and DG is - you'd agree with them too that we can't go back in a prior time and criticize DG in any manner.
My post about Cosell was very mild. We can get reminded on here that SY is not perfect (I've agreed with SY and sent posts saying so only to get thrown back in my face that SY is not perfect) and not much is said about that.
But I say similar to Cosell vs we criticize DG or someone nitpicking SY and it's "How dare I?"
Any of Brissett, Mariota, or Taylor made sense as targets
But that would probably have invited calls for a change a couple weeks in.
I don't hate Jones. I just hate watching the Giants lose, and Jones does a lot of things that contribute to the Giants losing.
I'm perplexed at the animosity towards having a better backup. Jones should easily beat those guys out. That's not 'real' competition unless Jones badly struggles during multiple regular season games.
but the guy doesn't use superlatives and just points out the guys weaknesses or strengths. In my experience listening to him and I know others have listened to more o him, he calls most QB's system QB's. That's what he called Jones.
I'm as sensitive as anyone to Jones criticism but I'm completely shocked how negatively what he said about Jones was taken. He basically said RIGHT NOW entering his third season Jones is a system QB and we'll have to see if he becomes more. How many QBs in the history of the NFL were more than system QBs coming into the third season? He didn't say that's all he'll ever be either. This is such a non-story.
RE: Any of Brissett, Mariota, or Taylor made sense as targets
But that would probably have invited calls for a change a couple weeks in.
I don't hate Jones. I just hate watching the Giants lose, and Jones does a lot of things that contribute to the Giants losing.
Please listen.
Judge said, "Don't tell me what a player can't do."
That was nice hear. I have "heard" a lot good shit from coaches. I give no fucks for what they say anymore.
You know what Jones has been doing consistently since a Freshman at Duke?
Make tight window throws because his players at Duke didn't get open.
The one thing Jones has done since coming to the Giants?
Make accurate tight window throws down the field. Some QBs won't make those throws. Jones has a history of throwing them.
What is Golloday great at?
I will wait.
What is Rudolph good at?
They aren't done.
The decisions just got a lot easier for Jones. Add one of the elite skill position players routinely projected to the Giants and it is going to much better than average.
Chill out Terps.
Judge sees what Jones can do well and can exploit it.
He's the same one that had said Josh Rosen was the best QB in his class and wasn't very impressed with Josh Allen. SO we're supposed to trust him about which non-QB to draft.
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
christian said this on another thread better than I could; I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him here:
Quote:
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christian : 12:27 pm : link : reply
It's always about roster architecture. The Giants have a win now defense, with a bunch of 2nd contract, prime players on 2-3 year deals.
The offense is currently counting on:
- Jones bouncing back from an 11 TD, 14 start season
- Barkley bouncing back from a torn ACL
- Golladay bouncing back from a mysterious 9 week hip strain
- An UDFA, 5th round, 3rd round, and veteran bust contributing to the offensive line
If much of that turns out in the Giants favor, and they are competing for a championship over the next few years, I'll be happy to give Rabbit Foot Dave his credit.
Without picking on posters who use "roster architecture " as a concept
For use in critiquing any Front Office; I don't get it as a useful framework even if it's a nice sounding set of words.
The NFL gives you an average of 6-7 draft slots. Per year
If you got 5 players by year two then you are beating the odds.
You need 53 players plus enough player access above that to field against and annual injury rate of 25%. So about 66 per year.
You have an average career in a violent sport of 4 years.
These are realities.
When I hear critiques of any one year of "roster architecture" I'm at the third day of a drink allowed conference on "Building 50 Story Skyscrapers in Venice".
Which should posters attend:
Workshop A: Using more steel so you can go higher than 50 in the years ahead?
Workshop B: Using more wood so that when your creation falls you have less of a clean up bill?
Workshop C: Going deeper into the mud with more concrete in the foundation?
Is this the conference or the construct for any promising architect who wants to get better at understanding their chosen game?
Mariota would absolutely push Jones for the starting role
He's the same one that had said Josh Rosen was the best QB in his class and wasn't very impressed with Josh Allen. SO we're supposed to trust him about which non-QB to draft.
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
But I want all those posting “well, who could you bring in who could possibly be in the same range as Daniel Jones” to shut the heck up. Mariota would have cost about the double as Toilolo and actually filled a critical position.
Actually, let me bring up another question. If we are loaded up for a division run, why exactly are we barren at the backup QB position? Even if Jones plays well, there is a high likelihood that he will miss time. So investing in Mariota would be significant even he is just a backup. And meanwhile we let the guy who was QB during the team’s biggest win in half a decade sign with Arizona. Why exactly did we do that?
Given the insider comments about the Adoree and Golladay overpays, I am still waiting to see whether the Giants FO has turned the corner. It’s very much in doubt. Looking at the QB planning, there is more action yet to come or the Giants are continuing to be sloppy and ill prepared.
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
Building a roster absolutely should be planned out
especially if you are going thru a pretty big rebuild because there are more variables at play. You may need 53 guys but that doesn’t mean the architectural thought process for #51 requires the same energy for say #3 thru #12. Good and bad fortune, avg length of service and positional supply and demand all come into play, but it’s still a process that deserves detailed attention.
When you hear the phrase “ it seems like every year is a rebuilding year” then you know you have the wrong architects...
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
.. and in fact Cosell never said Rosen would be a good pro. He just pointed out what was good about him. And he was correct. Rosen throws a good ball with timing and anticipation. He did show that in the NFL. But Cosell doesn't predict who will be great and who will not. He tells you what traits and attributes he sees on tape.
RE: RE: Any of Brissett, Mariota, or Taylor made sense as targets
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
.. and in fact Cosell never said Rosen would be a good pro. He just pointed out what was good about him. And he was correct. Rosen throws a good ball with timing and anticipation. He did show that in the NFL. But Cosell doesn't predict who will be great and who will not. He tells you what traits and attributes he sees on tape.
In fact Cosell rated the QB's. Rosen was his number 1. He specifically said he prefers accurate pocket QB's. He specifically has said others prefer rollout QB's etc. But he prefers pocket QB's. And Rosen was his number 1.
Chris Carter thought Rosen was highly overrated.
You're making it sound like all Cosell talks about is "throwing a good ball."
Every talent evaluator and every gm gets some wrong. Rating football
players is not an exact science. But some, over the long haul, get more right and less wrong than others. Cosell is generally considered to be one of the best.
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
.. and in fact Cosell never said Rosen would be a good pro. He just pointed out what was good about him. And he was correct. Rosen throws a good ball with timing and anticipation. He did show that in the NFL. But Cosell doesn't predict who will be great and who will not. He tells you what traits and attributes he sees on tape.
In fact Cosell rated the QB's. Rosen was his number 1. He specifically said he prefers accurate pocket QB's. He specifically has said others prefer rollout QB's etc. But he prefers pocket QB's. And Rosen was his number 1.
Chris Carter thought Rosen was highly overrated.
You're making it sound like all Cosell talks about is "throwing a good ball."
Cosell has never said he prefers pocket QBs. You are misrepresenting his comments. He HAS said that he thinks a QB needs to win from the pocket. So, for him, a QB needs that skill to be successful. But not at the exclusion of designed roll outs and second reaction plays.
There is nothing wrong with preferring pocket QB or not. --
It's just that Cosell is so much more than what you are are suggesting Producer. He talks about presence in the pocket etc.
You are making him sound like a H/S analyst.
read my comment just above. Cosell does not say he prefers a pocket QB/ Though he says to be successful long term in the NFL a QB must learn to make plays from the pocket.
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
.. and in fact Cosell never said Rosen would be a good pro. He just pointed out what was good about him. And he was correct. Rosen throws a good ball with timing and anticipation. He did show that in the NFL. But Cosell doesn't predict who will be great and who will not. He tells you what traits and attributes he sees on tape.
In fact Cosell rated the QB's. Rosen was his number 1. He specifically said he prefers accurate pocket QB's. He specifically has said others prefer rollout QB's etc. But he prefers pocket QB's. And Rosen was his number 1.
Chris Carter thought Rosen was highly overrated.
You're making it sound like all Cosell talks about is "throwing a good ball."
Cosell has never said he prefers pocket QBs. You are misrepresenting his comments. He HAS said that he thinks a QB needs to win from the pocket. So, for him, a QB needs that skill to be successful. But not at the exclusion of designed roll outs and second reaction plays.
He absolutely did say he prefers pocket QB's that are highly accurate. He said he is old school in that way.
And there is NOT one bit wrong saying that.
He values accuracy highly among other things. Nothing wrong with that.
the same people that say Jones needs a great offensive line and all pro wide receivers that get separation and a tight end that can catch and block and a first round running back? Just wondering because I wonder how anyone thinks Jones would have done in Arizona or Miami under the same circumstances? And, let’s say we did draft Josh Rosen. Are people thinking he would be worse than Jones has been? How exactly? More turn overs? Less TDs? Injured more? Would Rosen have less wins than Jones? It’s kind of hard to imagine isn’t it? Kind of curious b/c a lot people here are killing Cosell for being wrong about Rosen. How good could Rosen have been in his circumstance? And shouldn’t he get all the same benefits of the doubt and time to grow as Jones?
Anyway, one thing we know, after three seasons you pretty much know what you have at the QB1. It’s time for Jones to win some games. And if he’s a game manager as the sixth pick in the draft that’s a miss and a disappointment. Jones wasn’t drafted to be a game manager any more than Barks was drafted to be a two down back.
players is not an exact science. But some, over the long haul, get more right and less wrong than others. Cosell is generally considered to be one of the best.
And it's not just about getting it right or wrong. There are many reasons that players do not live up to expectations beyond talent. Cosell is great because of the way he succinctly frames his evaluations and intelligently reaches conclusions, most of which he carefully discounts with appropriate caveats. I see him more like an NFL personnel scientist who works exhaustively developing carefully considered hypotheses. I never recall him bombastically declaring a point of view about any player ala Kiper.
That Rosen evaluation is just puzzling in retrospect
Sy gave him a very high numerical grade. And the guy is on his third team without ever playing a lot. He has to be among the most disappointing players to be drafted in the last decade.
I’m really hoping to see a knowledgeable account of the entire debacle in the next couple of years, complete with unvarnished quotes from NFL GMs et al.
I went back again with that Cleveland interview. He said he prefers structure. And isn't "structure" a pocket-passer.? If it isn't I apologize.
Well I have heard him extensively over the years. It is possible he has evolved on the secondary play stuff, as we have all had to. Recently I have heard him say that he thinks running QBs, like Lamar, have to be able to make plays from the pocket in order to have sustained success. I think that is his latest view. So in a way he is saying pocket play is still so important. And I would add, I don;t know if it is a matter of *preference* or if it is a conclusion of what he has seen based on tape watching. The thing about Cosell is, you know if some QB comes out and wins without making plays from the pocket, he will change his opinion. He will tell you what the tape says about that. But so far, no QB has really ever won a Super Bowl without the pocket component of the game.
RE: That Rosen evaluation is just puzzling in retrospect
Sy gave him a very high numerical grade. And the guy is on his third team without ever playing a lot. He has to be among the most disappointing players to be drafted in the last decade.
I’m really hoping to see a knowledgeable account of the entire debacle in the next couple of years, complete with unvarnished quotes from NFL GMs et al.
After the '18 season, and I need to find the thread, but Sy was saying that Rosen made some of the best throws he saw that year with Arizona. But he really couldn't thrive because the overall personnel was so poor.
And this matched up with what I saw because I was very interested in seeing how Rosen was doing. He made some brilliant throws. But I thought he would be a bit more athletic than what he showed.
If you recall, the narrative quickly turned to Rosen's personality after Arizona ditched him for Murray. But there wasn't really anything to support that...
I went back again with that Cleveland interview. He said he prefers structure. And isn't "structure" a pocket-passer.? If it isn't I apologize.
Well I have heard him extensively over the years. It is possible he has evolved on the secondary play stuff, as we have all had to. Recently I have heard him say that he thinks running QBs, like Lamar, have to be able to make plays from the pocket in order to have sustained success. I think that is his latest view. So in a way he is saying pocket play is still so important. And I would add, I don;t know if it is a matter of *preference* or if it is a conclusion of what he has seen based on tape watching. The thing about Cosell is, you know if some QB comes out and wins without making plays from the pocket, he will change his opinion. He will tell you what the tape says about that. But so far, no QB has really ever won a Super Bowl without the pocket component of the game.
Lamar Jackson is going to put the Ravens in an awkward position when his rookie contract expires if he doesn’t progress in the pocket. When push comes to shove, against playoff caliber defenses you don’t have the chance to improvise. It is not just Lamar Jackson. Josh Allen has looked weaker in the playoffs than he has in the regular season. To win you need to be able to make quick reads and I am not sure Jackson has that if his outs running the ball aren’t there.
But that's what the Giants are doing: giving him a chance. They didn't bring in a backup that could upset the apple cart, and they're unlikely to bring in anyone to truly compete for the starting job between now and August.
Jones is being given an opportunity he hasn't earned through his play on the field; I think this points to a mediocre record in 2021. I think it's a mistaken approach.
You always gloss over or ignore that there's shit going on behind the scenes that we can't relate to. Coaches are evaluating players on how they progress from game to game. On how they practice. On how they work on and off the field.
You act like you know everything. No one knows what Jones will do this coming year, including you, but Judge has formed an educated opinion and take based on his first hand knowledge of who and what Jones is.
No one knows as much as Judge knows. QBs have gone from bad to good in year 3 so many times over the last 50 years. But you're certain. Sure.
RE: RE: That Rosen evaluation is just puzzling in retrospect
Sy gave him a very high numerical grade. And the guy is on his third team without ever playing a lot. He has to be among the most disappointing players to be drafted in the last decade.
I’m really hoping to see a knowledgeable account of the entire debacle in the next couple of years, complete with unvarnished quotes from NFL GMs et al.
After the '18 season, and I need to find the thread, but Sy was saying that Rosen made some of the best throws he saw that year with Arizona. But he really couldn't thrive because the overall personnel was so poor.
And this matched up with what I saw because I was very interested in seeing how Rosen was doing. He made some brilliant throws. But I thought he would be a bit more athletic than what he showed.
If you recall, the narrative quickly turned to Rosen's personality after Arizona ditched him for Murray. But there wasn't really anything to support that...
Kind of weird you would excuse a QB because of the poor personnel around him.
christian said this on another thread better than I could; I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him here:
Quote:
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christian : 12:27 pm : link : reply
It's always about roster architecture. The Giants have a win now defense, with a bunch of 2nd contract, prime players on 2-3 year deals.
The offense is currently counting on:
- Jones bouncing back from an 11 TD, 14 start season
- Barkley bouncing back from a torn ACL
- Golladay bouncing back from a mysterious 9 week hip strain
- An UDFA, 5th round, 3rd round, and veteran bust contributing to the offensive line
If much of that turns out in the Giants favor, and they are competing for a championship over the next few years, I'll be happy to give Rabbit Foot Dave his credit.
2005:
Vet defense in "win now mode" with guys like Strahan, Pierce, Robbins, Madison and a few younger up n comers like Osi, Webster (who still sucked) and Wilson.
Offense was depending on a young QB named Eli Manning who stunk up the joint in 2004, save for 2-3 bright moments. A left tackle no one liked in Luke. Young Snee. Young Diehl. Vet FA Plax who was coming in here with more warts than Galloday. Everyone hates Engram but he's a productive receiving TE.
I don't even care to go on. It's just fascinating how some of you spin shit to fit into the agenda.
Tampa was going nowhere. NOWHERE. They were bad for YEARS. Saw a window, signed Brady and killed everyone. How's that for a "model?"
Belickick was smarter than everyone for decades because, according to BBI, he never spent FA money. Until now. Is he dumb? Or was that widely held belief pretty much bullshit?
to ignore that Brissett is making 5 million this year while Glennon is making over 3 million less. Also worth noting that Brisett might be the most milk toast, mediocre QB going.
Yeah, lets bring in the most average QB ever and "push" Jones. BEcause we all know that's the sure fire way to win and sustain winning in the NFL.
No one is winning fuck all with Brisett as the long term answer. The Colts couldn't wait to bring in the corpse of Phillip Rivers and bench this guy.
If Jones sucks, we will go all in on another QB. ONe that has more upside than BRisett or MAriotta.
when the response to having a QB on "scholarship" is to bring in competition from QB's who have just as long of a history or more of playing poorly.
If one of those guys is supposedly going to push Jones for playing time or be better, then why isn't the logic that Jones could get better as well??
I'm just happy we aren't bombarded with how great nick Mullens is anymore.
I don't even want to sound like I think it's a terrible idea. It's ok guess. If the Giants brought in MArriotta I wouldn't bitch about it. I kind of like his under the radar potential, perhaps, or even Brisett. They are steady. They aren't terrible. That's fine. But it's not the secret sauce to winning. Not even close.
Every fucking move is twisted into this doom and gloom shit. It's old.
Now we have to read about roster architecture. The fuck out of here. Tampa literally laughed in the face of this crap and won a title based on going all in on a roster of misfits and cast offs. JPP was a bum here? He wins a title there. Antonio BRown is a team cancer? Title winning player there. Fournette? Check.
It comes down to player evaluations and player development. At some point, you have to trust the process at times and go all in on a young player that isn't a sure fire known commodity. You have to trust what your eyes, ears and gut tell you. You have to go on faith, sometimes it's partially blind faith. The smartest and most astute and pragmatic football EXECS have lived and died with this philosophy.
The Giants have lived and died on this philosophy. It's not always football scholarship or country club confines. It's giving young players a chance. If you cut bait every 2 years on a high profile player you aint winning shit. We aren't the BRowns. We aren't the Jets. The Giants are going to exercice loyalty and patience. SOmetimes it works (84-90) and 04-2012) and sometimes it doesn't (94-96) (14-18)
Jones wouldn't be the QB in 2021 if he didn't earn the trust and belief from this staff. Like it or not he's going to get every chance to cement his place as a good starting NFL QB. It's year 3, second with this staff, not year 5.
After the '18 season, and I need to find the thread, but Sy was saying that Rosen made some of the best throws he saw that year with Arizona. But he really couldn't thrive because the overall personnel was so poor.
And this matched up with what I saw because I was very interested in seeing how Rosen was doing. He made some brilliant throws. But I thought he would be a bit more athletic than what he showed.
If you recall, the narrative quickly turned to Rosen's personality after Arizona ditched him for Murray. But there wasn't really anything to support that...
Kind of weird you would excuse a QB because of the poor personnel around him.
Why? Rosen was a rookie playing for a horrible team.
Operative word rookie.
RE: RE: Mariota would absolutely push Jones for the starting role
After the '18 season, and I need to find the thread, but Sy was saying that Rosen made some of the best throws he saw that year with Arizona. But he really couldn't thrive because the overall personnel was so poor.
And this matched up with what I saw because I was very interested in seeing how Rosen was doing. He made some brilliant throws. But I thought he would be a bit more athletic than what he showed.
If you recall, the narrative quickly turned to Rosen's personality after Arizona ditched him for Murray. But there wasn't really anything to support that...
Kind of weird you would excuse a QB because of the poor personnel around him.
Why? Rosen was a rookie playing for a horrible team.
Operative word rookie.
Your bile is only surpassed by your inconsistency.
After the '18 season, and I need to find the thread, but Sy was saying that Rosen made some of the best throws he saw that year with Arizona. But he really couldn't thrive because the overall personnel was so poor.
And this matched up with what I saw because I was very interested in seeing how Rosen was doing. He made some brilliant throws. But I thought he would be a bit more athletic than what he showed.
If you recall, the narrative quickly turned to Rosen's personality after Arizona ditched him for Murray. But there wasn't really anything to support that...
Kind of weird you would excuse a QB because of the poor personnel around him.
Why? Rosen was a rookie playing for a horrible team.
Operative word rookie.
Your bile is only surpassed by your inconsistency.
Not sure what you are talking about specifically. So if you want to engage in something specific then shoot.
by the day that NYG would like to get 1 of Pitts, Smith, or Waddle
I agree with this.
Where it gets interesting (though unlikely, of course) is... what if several teams share the Giants' concern with the opt-out prospects, and Chase is the receiver who slides to #11?
We don't discuss Chase much because there's such a low likelihood that he'd be available at our pick, but what if he ends up sliding behind Smith/Pitts/Waddle for the teams ahead of us, and he's there but none of the other three are?
I assume the Giants would take Chase in that scenario, but I do wonder whether they are viewing the opt-outs as just a tiebreaker between similarly graded prospects, or if they see opting out as a true downgrade.
The opt outs shouldn't be viewed with a broad brush.
Those are issues best broached with a meeting with the player. I believe that's still possible, have not heard anything to the contrary.
Players shouldn't be punished for option out for any variety of personal reasons.
There's a player in the draft who opted out because he lost four (4!) family members as a result of covid. If he falls because someone looked at a paper and saw 'opt out', then shame on everyone involved.
RE: The opt outs shouldn't be viewed with a broad brush.
There's a player in the draft who opted out because he lost four (4!) family members as a result of covid. If he falls because someone looked at a paper and saw 'opt out', then shame on everyone involved.
Good point. And since Covid has hit the black community at a much higher rate than it makes sense why someone would want to avoid the risk.
RE: The opt outs shouldn't be viewed with a broad brush.
Those are issues best broached with a meeting with the player. I believe that's still possible, have not heard anything to the contrary.
Players shouldn't be punished for option out for any variety of personal reasons.
There's a player in the draft who opted out because he lost four (4!) family members as a result of covid. If he falls because someone looked at a paper and saw 'opt out', then shame on everyone involved.
I agree with that sentiment. I also think the benefit of the doubt should extend to players who opted out in general, and not just because we don't know the specifics. I tend to think that anyone who opted out, knowing that it could be a knock against them that could potentially cost them a lot of money by sliding even a few picks in the draft (if not more), probably did so because their concern for their health and that of their family outweighed their concern for their draft slot.
But that probably doesn't apply to all of the opt-outs, either. There may have been some that felt that they had proven all they needed to and would have entered the draft in 2020 had they been allowed, but used the opt-out as a cover for simply doing what Jadeveon Clowney had strongly considered doing in his final collegiate season because he was widely presumed to be the top pick after 2012 but not eligible until the 2014 draft.
So, which players opted out in spite of the risk to their draft status and which players opted out to avoid risking their draft status? That's the million dollar question, and I do hope the Giants aren't painting all of them with the same broad brush. All we've heard so far though is that they're viewing the opt-outs less favorably than guys who chose to play in 2020. How much of that is a general POV vs. each individual player is not something we've gotten much insight on yet (or if we have, I've missed it).
but in a situation like this I cannot see a player opting out of football in a 'red flag' type of way. It would be self-harmful.
I just don't see guys taking a year off for the hell of it, or out of general laziness. The top of the draft guys are being advised by agents who have their cut of his future earnings at stake, and who know how NFL teams would react if a potential player only opted out because they didn't want to work.
The midlevel hopefuls wouldn't opt out unless it was serious, because they want in to the league and want every opportunity to post good tape.
There's always outliers where you find out a drafted player has poor work habits, but I think those guys are a really tiny majority of the 300+ guys who get drafted or UDFA every year. Elite level college football has a good way of weeding out people who don't have the desire.
but in a situation like this I cannot see a player opting out of football in a 'red flag' type of way. It would be self-harmful.
I just don't see guys taking a year off for the hell of it, or out of general laziness. The top of the draft guys are being advised by agents who have their cut of his future earnings at stake, and who know how NFL teams would react if a potential player only opted out because they didn't want to work.
The midlevel hopefuls wouldn't opt out unless it was serious, because they want in to the league and want every opportunity to post good tape.
There's always outliers where you find out a drafted player has poor work habits, but I think those guys are a really tiny majority of the 300+ guys who get drafted or UDFA every year. Elite level college football has a good way of weeding out people who don't have the desire.
I agree with you, generally, on this. But obviously the Giants seem to have some sort of eye on a few players that they must think have opted out for selfish reasons, otherwise why would there be any chatter at all about them having a preference for guys who didn't opt out? Could be as simple as they just view the prospect as a safer choice with more recent tape, but it could also be that they have questions about whether any of the players opted out to avoid putting any regression on tape.
I don't know if that's the case with any player at all, and it's unfair to assume that it even could be. This is purely speculation on my part to link it to some sort of similarity to when Jadeveon Clowney considered sitting out his final season at South Carolina in 2013 because his 2012 season had already put him in the discussion for #1 overall.
And to the extent that the Clowney situation (he did wind up playing in '13, of course, and did take a large step back from '12, but remained a top-10 pick) could have any similarities here, AND that any of this year's top prospects might have had some advice that pointed to Clowney's 2013 season as a cautionary tale, is it a huge stretch to wonder if a player like Sewell who was already basically locked in as OT1 or Chase who was clearly the presumptive WR1 for 2021 after the 2019 season (and could justifiably have been looking at a huge step down in the quality of the LSU offense in 2020), might have looked at the chance to opt out as an opportunity to avoid more than just the direct risk of Covid?
Like I said, I wouldn't want to assume that of anyone, especially doing so without really being mindful of the state of the pandemic at the time when they chose to opt out, but it sounds like the Giants are curious enough to at least be doing their due diligence on it.
are one of those situations arising from the COVID situation and it adds another layer of due diligence, but I can see why players opted out for reasons even that aren't COVID-related. If you have a family that you want to set up for life, you could be getting pressured from them to stay off the field and not jeopardize a high draft slot.
we had a situation here in HS of one of the top prep RB's passing up football this Spring (they pushed the schedule back) or playing lacrosse where he was a top player in the country to protect his spot at Clemson. In fact, he didn't technically opt out, he graduated a semester early and already enrolled at Clemson.
Then there are the cases as Dunk mentioned above where players have COVID-related reasons. Where family members have been stricken, etc.
I think you just have to give a little more scrutiny, but just opting out shouldn't be a removal from a board automatically.
If Chase makes it to #11 because the teams before us were
Posters do that to other posters here almost everyday. They do the "call out" routine by digging up old posts where someone has opinion about a prospect that didn't work out. As if being wrong about a prospect automatically disqualifies you from ever again taking a position on any other prospect.
I'm hoping the CDC can eventually find a vaccine for Dumb; and many BBIers can have access to it. It would certainly help BBI discourse going forward...
Great. I guess next time when one of us criticizes Dave Gettleman and it gets thrown back in our face that we aren't a scout and DG is - you'd agree with them too that we can't go back in a prior time and criticize DG in any manner.
My post about Cosell was very mild. We can get reminded on here that SY is not perfect (I've agreed with SY and sent posts saying so only to get thrown back in my face that SY is not perfect) and not much is said about that.
But I say similar to Cosell vs we criticize DG or someone nitpicking SY and it's "How dare I?"
I don't hate Jones. I just hate watching the Giants lose, and Jones does a lot of things that contribute to the Giants losing.
I don't hate Jones. I just hate watching the Giants lose, and Jones does a lot of things that contribute to the Giants losing.
I'm perplexed at the animosity towards having a better backup. Jones should easily beat those guys out. That's not 'real' competition unless Jones badly struggles during multiple regular season games.
I'm as sensitive as anyone to Jones criticism but I'm completely shocked how negatively what he said about Jones was taken. He basically said RIGHT NOW entering his third season Jones is a system QB and we'll have to see if he becomes more. How many QBs in the history of the NFL were more than system QBs coming into the third season? He didn't say that's all he'll ever be either. This is such a non-story.
I don't hate Jones. I just hate watching the Giants lose, and Jones does a lot of things that contribute to the Giants losing.
Judge said, "Don't tell me what a player can't do."
That was nice hear. I have "heard" a lot good shit from coaches. I give no fucks for what they say anymore.
You know what Jones has been doing consistently since a Freshman at Duke?
Make tight window throws because his players at Duke didn't get open.
The one thing Jones has done since coming to the Giants?
Make accurate tight window throws down the field. Some QBs won't make those throws. Jones has a history of throwing them.
What is Golloday great at?
I will wait.
What is Rudolph good at?
They aren't done.
The decisions just got a lot easier for Jones. Add one of the elite skill position players routinely projected to the Giants and it is going to much better than average.
Chill out Terps.
Judge sees what Jones can do well and can exploit it.
The have delivered perfect schematic fits.
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
christian : 12:27 pm : link : reply
It's always about roster architecture. The Giants have a win now defense, with a bunch of 2nd contract, prime players on 2-3 year deals.
The offense is currently counting on:
- Jones bouncing back from an 11 TD, 14 start season
- Barkley bouncing back from a torn ACL
- Golladay bouncing back from a mysterious 9 week hip strain
- An UDFA, 5th round, 3rd round, and veteran bust contributing to the offensive line
If much of that turns out in the Giants favor, and they are competing for a championship over the next few years, I'll be happy to give Rabbit Foot Dave his credit.
The NFL gives you an average of 6-7 draft slots. Per year
If you got 5 players by year two then you are beating the odds.
You need 53 players plus enough player access above that to field against and annual injury rate of 25%. So about 66 per year.
You have an average career in a violent sport of 4 years.
These are realities.
When I hear critiques of any one year of "roster architecture" I'm at the third day of a drink allowed conference on "Building 50 Story Skyscrapers in Venice".
Which should posters attend:
Workshop A: Using more steel so you can go higher than 50 in the years ahead?
Workshop B: Using more wood so that when your creation falls you have less of a clean up bill?
Workshop C: Going deeper into the mud with more concrete in the foundation?
Is this the conference or the construct for any promising architect who wants to get better at understanding their chosen game?
There is clearly no appetite for that from ownership or the GM.
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He's the same one that had said Josh Rosen was the best QB in his class and wasn't very impressed with Josh Allen. SO we're supposed to trust him about which non-QB to draft.
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
Actually, let me bring up another question. If we are loaded up for a division run, why exactly are we barren at the backup QB position? Even if Jones plays well, there is a high likelihood that he will miss time. So investing in Mariota would be significant even he is just a backup. And meanwhile we let the guy who was QB during the team’s biggest win in half a decade sign with Arizona. Why exactly did we do that?
Given the insider comments about the Adoree and Golladay overpays, I am still waiting to see whether the Giants FO has turned the corner. It’s very much in doubt. Looking at the QB planning, there is more action yet to come or the Giants are continuing to be sloppy and ill prepared.
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
When you hear the phrase “ it seems like every year is a rebuilding year” then you know you have the wrong architects...
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The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
.. and in fact Cosell never said Rosen would be a good pro. He just pointed out what was good about him. And he was correct. Rosen throws a good ball with timing and anticipation. He did show that in the NFL. But Cosell doesn't predict who will be great and who will not. He tells you what traits and attributes he sees on tape.
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Judge said, "Don't tell me what a player can't do."
Jimmy Johnson had a great quote.
"I don't judge a QB by the plays that he makes but by the plays he doesn't make."
What we don't want is for Jones "to tell Judge" that he is very good at making plays that are turnovers.
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The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
Well now you know. No problem.
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In comment 15209159 giantstock said:
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The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
.. and in fact Cosell never said Rosen would be a good pro. He just pointed out what was good about him. And he was correct. Rosen throws a good ball with timing and anticipation. He did show that in the NFL. But Cosell doesn't predict who will be great and who will not. He tells you what traits and attributes he sees on tape.
In fact Cosell rated the QB's. Rosen was his number 1. He specifically said he prefers accurate pocket QB's. He specifically has said others prefer rollout QB's etc. But he prefers pocket QB's. And Rosen was his number 1.
Chris Carter thought Rosen was highly overrated.
You're making it sound like all Cosell talks about is "throwing a good ball."
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In comment 15209175 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15209159 giantstock said:
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The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
.. and in fact Cosell never said Rosen would be a good pro. He just pointed out what was good about him. And he was correct. Rosen throws a good ball with timing and anticipation. He did show that in the NFL. But Cosell doesn't predict who will be great and who will not. He tells you what traits and attributes he sees on tape.
In fact Cosell rated the QB's. Rosen was his number 1. He specifically said he prefers accurate pocket QB's. He specifically has said others prefer rollout QB's etc. But he prefers pocket QB's. And Rosen was his number 1.
Chris Carter thought Rosen was highly overrated.
You're making it sound like all Cosell talks about is "throwing a good ball."
Cosell has never said he prefers pocket QBs. You are misrepresenting his comments. He HAS said that he thinks a QB needs to win from the pocket. So, for him, a QB needs that skill to be successful. But not at the exclusion of designed roll outs and second reaction plays.
It's just that Cosell is so much more than what you are are suggesting Producer. He talks about presence in the pocket etc.
You are making him sound like a H/S analyst.
It's just that Cosell is so much more than what you are are suggesting Producer. He talks about presence in the pocket etc.
You are making him sound like a H/S analyst.
read my comment just above. Cosell does not say he prefers a pocket QB/ Though he says to be successful long term in the NFL a QB must learn to make plays from the pocket.
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In comment 15209192 Producer said:
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In comment 15209175 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15209159 giantstock said:
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The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
.. and in fact Cosell never said Rosen would be a good pro. He just pointed out what was good about him. And he was correct. Rosen throws a good ball with timing and anticipation. He did show that in the NFL. But Cosell doesn't predict who will be great and who will not. He tells you what traits and attributes he sees on tape.
In fact Cosell rated the QB's. Rosen was his number 1. He specifically said he prefers accurate pocket QB's. He specifically has said others prefer rollout QB's etc. But he prefers pocket QB's. And Rosen was his number 1.
Chris Carter thought Rosen was highly overrated.
You're making it sound like all Cosell talks about is "throwing a good ball."
Cosell has never said he prefers pocket QBs. You are misrepresenting his comments. He HAS said that he thinks a QB needs to win from the pocket. So, for him, a QB needs that skill to be successful. But not at the exclusion of designed roll outs and second reaction plays.
He absolutely did say he prefers pocket QB's that are highly accurate. He said he is old school in that way.
And there is NOT one bit wrong saying that.
He values accuracy highly among other things. Nothing wrong with that.
Anyway, one thing we know, after three seasons you pretty much know what you have at the QB1. It’s time for Jones to win some games. And if he’s a game manager as the sixth pick in the draft that’s a miss and a disappointment. Jones wasn’t drafted to be a game manager any more than Barks was drafted to be a two down back.
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In comment 15209192 Producer said:
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I went back again with that Cleveland interview. He said he prefers structure. And isn't "structure" a pocket-passer.? If it isn't I apologize.
And it's not just about getting it right or wrong. There are many reasons that players do not live up to expectations beyond talent. Cosell is great because of the way he succinctly frames his evaluations and intelligently reaches conclusions, most of which he carefully discounts with appropriate caveats. I see him more like an NFL personnel scientist who works exhaustively developing carefully considered hypotheses. I never recall him bombastically declaring a point of view about any player ala Kiper.
I’m really hoping to see a knowledgeable account of the entire debacle in the next couple of years, complete with unvarnished quotes from NFL GMs et al.
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In comment 15209198 giantstock said:
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In comment 15209192 Producer said:
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I went back again with that Cleveland interview. He said he prefers structure. And isn't "structure" a pocket-passer.? If it isn't I apologize.
Well I have heard him extensively over the years. It is possible he has evolved on the secondary play stuff, as we have all had to. Recently I have heard him say that he thinks running QBs, like Lamar, have to be able to make plays from the pocket in order to have sustained success. I think that is his latest view. So in a way he is saying pocket play is still so important. And I would add, I don;t know if it is a matter of *preference* or if it is a conclusion of what he has seen based on tape watching. The thing about Cosell is, you know if some QB comes out and wins without making plays from the pocket, he will change his opinion. He will tell you what the tape says about that. But so far, no QB has really ever won a Super Bowl without the pocket component of the game.
I’m really hoping to see a knowledgeable account of the entire debacle in the next couple of years, complete with unvarnished quotes from NFL GMs et al.
After the '18 season, and I need to find the thread, but Sy was saying that Rosen made some of the best throws he saw that year with Arizona. But he really couldn't thrive because the overall personnel was so poor.
And this matched up with what I saw because I was very interested in seeing how Rosen was doing. He made some brilliant throws. But I thought he would be a bit more athletic than what he showed.
If you recall, the narrative quickly turned to Rosen's personality after Arizona ditched him for Murray. But there wasn't really anything to support that...
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In comment 15209202 Producer said:
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In comment 15209198 giantstock said:
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In comment 15209192 Producer said:
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I went back again with that Cleveland interview. He said he prefers structure. And isn't "structure" a pocket-passer.? If it isn't I apologize.
Well I have heard him extensively over the years. It is possible he has evolved on the secondary play stuff, as we have all had to. Recently I have heard him say that he thinks running QBs, like Lamar, have to be able to make plays from the pocket in order to have sustained success. I think that is his latest view. So in a way he is saying pocket play is still so important. And I would add, I don;t know if it is a matter of *preference* or if it is a conclusion of what he has seen based on tape watching. The thing about Cosell is, you know if some QB comes out and wins without making plays from the pocket, he will change his opinion. He will tell you what the tape says about that. But so far, no QB has really ever won a Super Bowl without the pocket component of the game.
Lamar Jackson is going to put the Ravens in an awkward position when his rookie contract expires if he doesn’t progress in the pocket. When push comes to shove, against playoff caliber defenses you don’t have the chance to improvise. It is not just Lamar Jackson. Josh Allen has looked weaker in the playoffs than he has in the regular season. To win you need to be able to make quick reads and I am not sure Jackson has that if his outs running the ball aren’t there.
Jones is being given an opportunity he hasn't earned through his play on the field; I think this points to a mediocre record in 2021. I think it's a mistaken approach.
You always gloss over or ignore that there's shit going on behind the scenes that we can't relate to. Coaches are evaluating players on how they progress from game to game. On how they practice. On how they work on and off the field.
You act like you know everything. No one knows what Jones will do this coming year, including you, but Judge has formed an educated opinion and take based on his first hand knowledge of who and what Jones is.
No one knows as much as Judge knows. QBs have gone from bad to good in year 3 so many times over the last 50 years. But you're certain. Sure.
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Sy gave him a very high numerical grade. And the guy is on his third team without ever playing a lot. He has to be among the most disappointing players to be drafted in the last decade.
I’m really hoping to see a knowledgeable account of the entire debacle in the next couple of years, complete with unvarnished quotes from NFL GMs et al.
After the '18 season, and I need to find the thread, but Sy was saying that Rosen made some of the best throws he saw that year with Arizona. But he really couldn't thrive because the overall personnel was so poor.
And this matched up with what I saw because I was very interested in seeing how Rosen was doing. He made some brilliant throws. But I thought he would be a bit more athletic than what he showed.
If you recall, the narrative quickly turned to Rosen's personality after Arizona ditched him for Murray. But there wasn't really anything to support that...
Kind of weird you would excuse a QB because of the poor personnel around him.
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christian : 12:27 pm : link : reply
It's always about roster architecture. The Giants have a win now defense, with a bunch of 2nd contract, prime players on 2-3 year deals.
The offense is currently counting on:
- Jones bouncing back from an 11 TD, 14 start season
- Barkley bouncing back from a torn ACL
- Golladay bouncing back from a mysterious 9 week hip strain
- An UDFA, 5th round, 3rd round, and veteran bust contributing to the offensive line
If much of that turns out in the Giants favor, and they are competing for a championship over the next few years, I'll be happy to give Rabbit Foot Dave his credit.
2005:
Vet defense in "win now mode" with guys like Strahan, Pierce, Robbins, Madison and a few younger up n comers like Osi, Webster (who still sucked) and Wilson.
Offense was depending on a young QB named Eli Manning who stunk up the joint in 2004, save for 2-3 bright moments. A left tackle no one liked in Luke. Young Snee. Young Diehl. Vet FA Plax who was coming in here with more warts than Galloday. Everyone hates Engram but he's a productive receiving TE.
I don't even care to go on. It's just fascinating how some of you spin shit to fit into the agenda.
Tampa was going nowhere. NOWHERE. They were bad for YEARS. Saw a window, signed Brady and killed everyone. How's that for a "model?"
Belickick was smarter than everyone for decades because, according to BBI, he never spent FA money. Until now. Is he dumb? Or was that widely held belief pretty much bullshit?
If one of those guys is supposedly going to push Jones for playing time or be better, then why isn't the logic that Jones could get better as well??
I'm just happy we aren't bombarded with how great nick Mullens is anymore.
Yeah, lets bring in the most average QB ever and "push" Jones. BEcause we all know that's the sure fire way to win and sustain winning in the NFL.
No one is winning fuck all with Brisett as the long term answer. The Colts couldn't wait to bring in the corpse of Phillip Rivers and bench this guy.
If Jones sucks, we will go all in on another QB. ONe that has more upside than BRisett or MAriotta.
If one of those guys is supposedly going to push Jones for playing time or be better, then why isn't the logic that Jones could get better as well??
I'm just happy we aren't bombarded with how great nick Mullens is anymore.
I don't even want to sound like I think it's a terrible idea. It's ok guess. If the Giants brought in MArriotta I wouldn't bitch about it. I kind of like his under the radar potential, perhaps, or even Brisett. They are steady. They aren't terrible. That's fine. But it's not the secret sauce to winning. Not even close.
Every fucking move is twisted into this doom and gloom shit. It's old.
Now we have to read about roster architecture. The fuck out of here. Tampa literally laughed in the face of this crap and won a title based on going all in on a roster of misfits and cast offs. JPP was a bum here? He wins a title there. Antonio BRown is a team cancer? Title winning player there. Fournette? Check.
It comes down to player evaluations and player development. At some point, you have to trust the process at times and go all in on a young player that isn't a sure fire known commodity. You have to trust what your eyes, ears and gut tell you. You have to go on faith, sometimes it's partially blind faith. The smartest and most astute and pragmatic football EXECS have lived and died with this philosophy.
The Giants have lived and died on this philosophy. It's not always football scholarship or country club confines. It's giving young players a chance. If you cut bait every 2 years on a high profile player you aint winning shit. We aren't the BRowns. We aren't the Jets. The Giants are going to exercice loyalty and patience. SOmetimes it works (84-90) and 04-2012) and sometimes it doesn't (94-96) (14-18)
Jones wouldn't be the QB in 2021 if he didn't earn the trust and belief from this staff. Like it or not he's going to get every chance to cement his place as a good starting NFL QB. It's year 3, second with this staff, not year 5.
After the '18 season, and I need to find the thread, but Sy was saying that Rosen made some of the best throws he saw that year with Arizona. But he really couldn't thrive because the overall personnel was so poor.
And this matched up with what I saw because I was very interested in seeing how Rosen was doing. He made some brilliant throws. But I thought he would be a bit more athletic than what he showed.
If you recall, the narrative quickly turned to Rosen's personality after Arizona ditched him for Murray. But there wasn't really anything to support that...
Kind of weird you would excuse a QB because of the poor personnel around him.
Why? Rosen was a rookie playing for a horrible team.
Operative word rookie.
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MM’s stats are much better than Jones’ and there are many reasons to think he is simply a better prospect.
There is clearly no appetite for that from ownership or the GM.
Brilliant.
Can't believe I did not think of that.
A QB entering his 3rd year that was drafted at 6 has been given an opportunity to prove he is the guy and has not be forced to enter a QB competition.
This is not crazy. This is normal.
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After the '18 season, and I need to find the thread, but Sy was saying that Rosen made some of the best throws he saw that year with Arizona. But he really couldn't thrive because the overall personnel was so poor.
And this matched up with what I saw because I was very interested in seeing how Rosen was doing. He made some brilliant throws. But I thought he would be a bit more athletic than what he showed.
If you recall, the narrative quickly turned to Rosen's personality after Arizona ditched him for Murray. But there wasn't really anything to support that...
Kind of weird you would excuse a QB because of the poor personnel around him.
Why? Rosen was a rookie playing for a horrible team.
Operative word rookie.
Your bile is only surpassed by your inconsistency.
After the '18 season, and I need to find the thread, but Sy was saying that Rosen made some of the best throws he saw that year with Arizona. But he really couldn't thrive because the overall personnel was so poor.
And this matched up with what I saw because I was very interested in seeing how Rosen was doing. He made some brilliant throws. But I thought he would be a bit more athletic than what he showed.
If you recall, the narrative quickly turned to Rosen's personality after Arizona ditched him for Murray. But there wasn't really anything to support that...
Kind of weird you would excuse a QB because of the poor personnel around him.
Why? Rosen was a rookie playing for a horrible team.
Operative word rookie.
Your bile is only surpassed by your inconsistency.
Not sure what you are talking about specifically. So if you want to engage in something specific then shoot.
I agree with this.
Where it gets interesting (though unlikely, of course) is... what if several teams share the Giants' concern with the opt-out prospects, and Chase is the receiver who slides to #11?
We don't discuss Chase much because there's such a low likelihood that he'd be available at our pick, but what if he ends up sliding behind Smith/Pitts/Waddle for the teams ahead of us, and he's there but none of the other three are?
I assume the Giants would take Chase in that scenario, but I do wonder whether they are viewing the opt-outs as just a tiebreaker between similarly graded prospects, or if they see opting out as a true downgrade.
Players shouldn't be punished for option out for any variety of personal reasons.
There's a player in the draft who opted out because he lost four (4!) family members as a result of covid. If he falls because someone looked at a paper and saw 'opt out', then shame on everyone involved.
There's a player in the draft who opted out because he lost four (4!) family members as a result of covid. If he falls because someone looked at a paper and saw 'opt out', then shame on everyone involved.
Good point. And since Covid has hit the black community at a much higher rate than it makes sense why someone would want to avoid the risk.
Players shouldn't be punished for option out for any variety of personal reasons.
There's a player in the draft who opted out because he lost four (4!) family members as a result of covid. If he falls because someone looked at a paper and saw 'opt out', then shame on everyone involved.
I agree with that sentiment. I also think the benefit of the doubt should extend to players who opted out in general, and not just because we don't know the specifics. I tend to think that anyone who opted out, knowing that it could be a knock against them that could potentially cost them a lot of money by sliding even a few picks in the draft (if not more), probably did so because their concern for their health and that of their family outweighed their concern for their draft slot.
But that probably doesn't apply to all of the opt-outs, either. There may have been some that felt that they had proven all they needed to and would have entered the draft in 2020 had they been allowed, but used the opt-out as a cover for simply doing what Jadeveon Clowney had strongly considered doing in his final collegiate season because he was widely presumed to be the top pick after 2012 but not eligible until the 2014 draft.
So, which players opted out in spite of the risk to their draft status and which players opted out to avoid risking their draft status? That's the million dollar question, and I do hope the Giants aren't painting all of them with the same broad brush. All we've heard so far though is that they're viewing the opt-outs less favorably than guys who chose to play in 2020. How much of that is a general POV vs. each individual player is not something we've gotten much insight on yet (or if we have, I've missed it).
I just don't see guys taking a year off for the hell of it, or out of general laziness. The top of the draft guys are being advised by agents who have their cut of his future earnings at stake, and who know how NFL teams would react if a potential player only opted out because they didn't want to work.
The midlevel hopefuls wouldn't opt out unless it was serious, because they want in to the league and want every opportunity to post good tape.
There's always outliers where you find out a drafted player has poor work habits, but I think those guys are a really tiny majority of the 300+ guys who get drafted or UDFA every year. Elite level college football has a good way of weeding out people who don't have the desire.
I just don't see guys taking a year off for the hell of it, or out of general laziness. The top of the draft guys are being advised by agents who have their cut of his future earnings at stake, and who know how NFL teams would react if a potential player only opted out because they didn't want to work.
The midlevel hopefuls wouldn't opt out unless it was serious, because they want in to the league and want every opportunity to post good tape.
There's always outliers where you find out a drafted player has poor work habits, but I think those guys are a really tiny majority of the 300+ guys who get drafted or UDFA every year. Elite level college football has a good way of weeding out people who don't have the desire.
I agree with you, generally, on this. But obviously the Giants seem to have some sort of eye on a few players that they must think have opted out for selfish reasons, otherwise why would there be any chatter at all about them having a preference for guys who didn't opt out? Could be as simple as they just view the prospect as a safer choice with more recent tape, but it could also be that they have questions about whether any of the players opted out to avoid putting any regression on tape.
I don't know if that's the case with any player at all, and it's unfair to assume that it even could be. This is purely speculation on my part to link it to some sort of similarity to when Jadeveon Clowney considered sitting out his final season at South Carolina in 2013 because his 2012 season had already put him in the discussion for #1 overall.
And to the extent that the Clowney situation (he did wind up playing in '13, of course, and did take a large step back from '12, but remained a top-10 pick) could have any similarities here, AND that any of this year's top prospects might have had some advice that pointed to Clowney's 2013 season as a cautionary tale, is it a huge stretch to wonder if a player like Sewell who was already basically locked in as OT1 or Chase who was clearly the presumptive WR1 for 2021 after the 2019 season (and could justifiably have been looking at a huge step down in the quality of the LSU offense in 2020), might have looked at the chance to opt out as an opportunity to avoid more than just the direct risk of Covid?
Like I said, I wouldn't want to assume that of anyone, especially doing so without really being mindful of the state of the pandemic at the time when they chose to opt out, but it sounds like the Giants are curious enough to at least be doing their due diligence on it.
we had a situation here in HS of one of the top prep RB's passing up football this Spring (they pushed the schedule back) or playing lacrosse where he was a top player in the country to protect his spot at Clemson. In fact, he didn't technically opt out, he graduated a semester early and already enrolled at Clemson.
Then there are the cases as Dunk mentioned above where players have COVID-related reasons. Where family members have been stricken, etc.
I think you just have to give a little more scrutiny, but just opting out shouldn't be a removal from a board automatically.