He's the same one that had said Josh Rosen was the best QB in his class and wasn't very impressed with Josh Allen. SO we're supposed to trust him about which non-QB to draft.
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
He's the same one that had said Josh Rosen was the best QB in his class and wasn't very impressed with Josh Allen. SO we're supposed to trust him about which non-QB to draft.
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
If you're referring to the interview Cosell did with a Cleveland radio guy just prior to that "QB Draft" then that's not how I remember it.
While he did mention Rosen as his top choice (which he prefaced by saying, "if I had to choose...") he was not down on Allen. He said that teams will like different QBs depending upon their systems...and that Allen was more of an improvisor when a play breaks down
In any event, I certainly hope you're not suggesting that we should automatically dismiss Cosell's opinion just because he got one wrong a few years ago.
ALL pro talent evaluators get SOME picks wrong. It's the nature of that occupation. Or as George Young used to say (paraphrasing) "Drafting players is just like getting Christmas presents. You never know what you're going to get until you open the box."
He is a pure film study....he is an actual guy who studies film.....so many of these talking heads...claim to...but rely on the reports people like Greg Cosell produces.
He tells you what a player is....not what he can be...so in a way, he was right about Rosen and Allen. Allen has turned into a very good QB....but at the time of draft....he was very raw. Rosen was a very polished college QB....attitude, circumstances has derailed him...
He does not interview players....he is a primary film source.
You need to hear what Cosell says about the player....and use that information to draw conclusions.
He did not say who the Giants should draft....he said Pitts (Evans) is an offensive weapon and Waddle (T.Hill)...J.Phillips is the best de edge but has baggage....which he doesn't really know much about....Chase is best pure WR.....he goes into traits of the QBs.
To take advantage....you need to listen to Cosell...not just the headlines.
A great interview. Thanks for sharing. Hindsight, as they say, is
Not a pure X boundry receiver needs to be put in motion.I didn't pick up on that with respect to Smith. I actually thought Waddle was more of a motion receiver.
for being wrong on the draft is an IQ test. Everybody f#cks up on the draft at times, and the longer you're around it, the more f#ck ups you'll have.
Rosen had perfect height, was a special thrower of the football, and very smart. If he clicked, you had a franchise QB. It didn't work out. Most won't. But he had tools.
To now disregard Cosell's opinion moving forward shows an inability to consume the information properly. Unfortunate, because Cosell is inarguably one of the best.
He's the same one that had said Josh Rosen was the best QB in his class and wasn't very impressed with Josh Allen. SO we're supposed to trust him about which non-QB to draft.
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
Why “trust” anything? Can’t he be good at his jobs and not get it 100% right like every other person in the business?
To me it’s about the information you give and how you give it. Cosell is great, basically the opposite of talking heads like Kiper who don’t give you much substance, or none at all.
He's the same one that had said Josh Rosen was the best QB in his class and wasn't very impressed with Josh Allen. SO we're supposed to trust him about which non-QB to draft.
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
He is a pure film study....he is an actual guy who studies film.....so many of these talking heads...claim to...but rely on the reports people like Greg Cosell produces.
He tells you what a player is....not what he can be...so in a way, he was right about Rosen and Allen. Allen has turned into a very good QB....but at the time of draft....he was very raw. Rosen was a very polished college QB....attitude, circumstances has derailed him...
He does not interview players....he is a primary film source.
You need to hear what Cosell says about the player....and use that information to draw conclusions.
He did not say who the Giants should draft....he said Pitts (Evans) is an offensive weapon and Waddle (T.Hill)...J.Phillips is the best de edge but has baggage....which he doesn't really know much about....Chase is best pure WR.....he goes into traits of the QBs.
To take advantage....you need to listen to Cosell...not just the headlines.
are a probability play. Nobody gets it right 100% of the time. If they do, they are just lucky. The sample size is small.
I agree, and also understanding the player and what will motivate them going forward is something we as fans and most draft evaluators don't have access to. That's why they always say they draft for the player, not the position. They have much more access to spending time with the player and their coaches than any draft guy, and that clearly is extremely important. Because it's never completely predictable, some projections don't work out; projecting personality is really hard, and injuries are unpredictable.
And system is important as well. Some quarterbacks wind up in the wrong system and it affects their confidence and success throughout their careers. These decisions involve millions and are really hard. Makes you respect the people who get things right most of the time.
He's the same one that had said Josh Rosen was the best QB in his class and wasn't very impressed with Josh Allen. SO we're supposed to trust him about which non-QB to draft.
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
No one is the end all be all but cosell is better than most if not better than everyone. He’s well prepared and doesnt pander to idiots.
hedged his bets on Adoree' Jackson. People are all over the place when evaluating him. The Giants need him to play at a high level given the money they threw at him.
RE: Biggest takeaway for me is how high he was on Ryan Anderson.
Under-the-radar signing who could thrive in Graham's defense. I guess we'll see.
I'm intrigued with this fit as well. I think there's potential for more there. And Ryan brings that "dog mentality". That's an underrated quality and missing element of the Giants front 7.
Not a pure X boundry receiver needs to be put in motion.I didn't pick up on that with respect to Smith. I actually thought Waddle was more of a motion receiver.
Yep, there’s been a few YouTube videos saying the exact opposite of that, showing that Smith is more than capable off the line and the ways he uses his body to get open quickly
thing about Anderson, which I raised in my FA review, was that Anderson was stuck behind a lot of very high draft picks in Washington.
When I watched some review tape on him, I was shocked at how often the ball was being dislodged from the ball carrier when he was in the vicinity. Has that classic tomahawk chop move. Hopefully he helps.
RE: RE: Thanks for this
JINTin Adirondacks : 3/24/2021 4:52 pm : link : reply
In comment 15196151 JINTin Adirondacks said:
Quote:
In comment [url.ants defense is in good shape.
I have a feeling this guy is gonna go off under Judge and Graham and turnout to be a huge FA signing. [/quote] Anderson that is
Yeah, when I looked at the stats on him, despite the limited playing time, I think he had something like 5 forced fumbles.
I think that four of those came during the final 6 games of the 2019 season when he received extensive playing including the only 4 starts of the season. He also had 4 sacks in those 6 games.
I’m cautiously optimistic about Ryan Anderson but I love these type of signings. He’s not going to be a star but Anderson could turn out to be a good player for the Giants now that he has a real opportunity to earn significant playing time.
The Giants will almost certainly draft an edge rusher early in the draft and there should be a fierce competition in training camp for roster spots between Carter, Ogdenigbo, Anderson, Ximines, Brown, Coughlin, and the draft pick. It wouldn’t surprise me if the Giants try to trade Ximines during the draft but I don’t think there will be much interest in him.
RE: he was lukewarm at best when speaking of jones
hedged his bets on Adoree' Jackson. People are all over the place when evaluating him. The Giants need him to play at a high level given the money they threw at him.
The Giants need him to stay healthy. His talent is undeniable, it's his durability that's questionable. Same as Golladay.
RE: he was lukewarm at best when speaking of jones
Why would he be otherwise? It's not like Jones lit it up last year. Still, I took his evaluation more like "the jury is still out," which is fair.
The longer the jury remains out the lower the probability he is the answer. This is an iron law of sports which some here seem to forget.
Is it really? Can you post a list of the Iron Laws of Sports? I've never seen one before.
Regardless, the jury is going to be deliberating Jones' fate for at least one more year, and it's clear that the Giants are doing everything they can to set him up for success. As Ric Flair was wont to say, "Whether you like it or not, learn to love it."
RE: RE: RE: RE: he was lukewarm at best when speaking of jones
Why would he be otherwise? It's not like Jones lit it up last year. Still, I took his evaluation more like "the jury is still out," which is fair.
The longer the jury remains out the lower the probability he is the answer. This is an iron law of sports which some here seem to forget.
Is it really? Can you post a list of the Iron Laws of Sports? I've never seen one before.
Regardless, the jury is going to be deliberating Jones' fate for at least one more year, and it's clear that the Giants are doing everything they can to set him up for success. As Ric Flair was wont to say, "Whether you like it or not, learn to love it."
Yes, that is an iron law. It is not just true, it is common sense. Compare two QBs that are the same age, if one has *made it* and the other hasn't, chances are the one who has *made it* will have the better career. Compare two other QBs who are a year apart, if they have achieved the same level of production, the younger one is the better bet to *make it*.
Bill James observed many years ago that a 20 yr old prospect who is at the same level as a 21 or 22 yr old, is ahead of them. Those are the probabilities. Doesn't mean it will always work out that way. But that's probability, whether you make bad jokes about it or not.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: he was lukewarm at best when speaking of jones
Why would he be otherwise? It's not like Jones lit it up last year. Still, I took his evaluation more like "the jury is still out," which is fair.
The longer the jury remains out the lower the probability he is the answer. This is an iron law of sports which some here seem to forget.
Is it really? Can you post a list of the Iron Laws of Sports? I've never seen one before.
Regardless, the jury is going to be deliberating Jones' fate for at least one more year, and it's clear that the Giants are doing everything they can to set him up for success. As Ric Flair was wont to say, "Whether you like it or not, learn to love it."
Yes, that is an iron law. It is not just true, it is common sense. Compare two QBs that are the same age, if one has *made it* and the other hasn't, chances are the one who has *made it* will have the better career. Compare two other QBs who are a year apart, if they have achieved the same level of production, the younger one is the better bet to *make it*.
Bill James observed many years ago that a 20 yr old prospect who is at the same level as a 21 or 22 yr old, is ahead of them. Those are the probabilities. Doesn't mean it will always work out that way. But that's probability, whether you make bad jokes about it or not.
Haha, the fucking worst!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: he was lukewarm at best when speaking of jones
Why would he be otherwise? It's not like Jones lit it up last year. Still, I took his evaluation more like "the jury is still out," which is fair.
The longer the jury remains out the lower the probability he is the answer. This is an iron law of sports which some here seem to forget.
Is it really? Can you post a list of the Iron Laws of Sports? I've never seen one before.
Regardless, the jury is going to be deliberating Jones' fate for at least one more year, and it's clear that the Giants are doing everything they can to set him up for success. As Ric Flair was wont to say, "Whether you like it or not, learn to love it."
Yes, that is an iron law. It is not just true, it is common sense. Compare two QBs that are the same age, if one has *made it* and the other hasn't, chances are the one who has *made it* will have the better career. Compare two other QBs who are a year apart, if they have achieved the same level of production, the younger one is the better bet to *make it*.
Bill James observed many years ago that a 20 yr old prospect who is at the same level as a 21 or 22 yr old, is ahead of them. Those are the probabilities. Doesn't mean it will always work out that way. But that's probability, whether you make bad jokes about it or not.
Haha, the fucking worst!
because math, science and logic are mysteries to you.
You're looking at QB's in a vacuum, except for their ages.
You're ignoring the situations they were put in when they were drafted, and the adversity (or lack thereof) they've had to deal with since then, which was precisely Cosell's point when he was asked about Jones, and why I said his evaluation was fair, and essentially that "the jury was still out." You don't want to hear that because you don't like Jones and feel the Giants should move on from him. Well, that's just not going to happen, not this year anyway, no matter what the Iron Laws say.
and oline is competent, we most likely will find out most things we need to
I think he will show up for the most part but will always be maddening in some respects
think he is a borderline top 10 qb at best, which isnt bad at all
probably enough to win it all if most of the other parts are in place
RE: You're looking at QB's in a vacuum, except for their ages.
You're ignoring the situations they were put in when they were drafted, and the adversity (or lack thereof) they've had to deal with since then, which was precisely Cosell's point when he was asked about Jones, and why I said his evaluation was fair, and essentially that "the jury was still out." You don't want to hear that because you don't like Jones and feel the Giants should move on from him. Well, that's just not going to happen, not this year anyway, no matter what the Iron Laws say.
Situation and adversity sounds like a catch-all excuse. Not sure how to measure it or factor it in. We have seen a body of work from Jones and none of it has been elite. Regarding those excuses the stats say his protection was near league bottom, but not the worst. That's not to say he can't become a star. He might, and I hope he does. But I don't think it is wise to pretend we know he is the answer. If we don't know he is the answer then we should be looking for a definite answer at QB, until he proves it. It is not smart, imo, for an NFL team to spend years waiting for a guy to come around. Each season is incredibly valuable and to squander seasons on a third year guy who hasn't proved it is foolish. And each year that goes by, the lower are his chances of becoming a franchise QB.
I thought that was common knowledge. Think Marvin Harrison/Victor Cruz to Reggie Wayne/Hakeem Nicks.
His suddenness off the line/ability to create instant separation, great hands and competitive drive is impossible to defend. He can get deep too. He would be the perfect compliment to Golladay. Shepard in the slot.
Golladay - Devonta Smith - Shepard. Plus Rudolph & Barkley. That's tough to defend.
RE: RE: You're looking at QB's in a vacuum, except for their ages.
You're ignoring the situations they were put in when they were drafted, and the adversity (or lack thereof) they've had to deal with since then, which was precisely Cosell's point when he was asked about Jones, and why I said his evaluation was fair, and essentially that "the jury was still out." You don't want to hear that because you don't like Jones and feel the Giants should move on from him. Well, that's just not going to happen, not this year anyway, no matter what the Iron Laws say.
Situation and adversity sounds like a catch-all excuse. Not sure how to measure it or factor it in. We have seen a body of work from Jones and none of it has been elite. Regarding those excuses the stats say his protection was near league bottom, but not the worst. That's not to say he can't become a star. He might, and I hope he does. But I don't think it is wise to pretend we know he is the answer. If we don't know he is the answer then we should be looking for a definite answer at QB, until he proves it. It is not smart, imo, for an NFL team to spend years waiting for a guy to come around. Each season is incredibly valuable and to squander seasons on a third year guy who hasn't proved it is foolish. And each year that goes by, the lower are his chances of becoming a franchise QB.
You're being disingenuous when you say that Jones might become a star and you hope he does. You think nothing of the sort, which is why you want the Giants to move on from him ASAP. I don't pretend to know if he's the real deal or not, but I'm willing to be patient with him and give him another year (with a much better supporting cast) to show me. Your mind is already made up.
As for situations and adversity, they're not excuses, they're reality. Jones has had abysmal protection, sub par receivers, and last year an anemic running game. Cosell touched on all three. To expect Jones to thrive when faced with all that is unrealistic, as he said.
As for spending "years waiting for a guy to come around," Jones is in year three...two in this offense. Do the Iron Laws give a fixed number of years to determine if a QB is the goods, or are they subject to change? It really doesn't matter. Cosell counseled patience, so I'm going to be patient. Clearly, so are the Giants.
You're ignoring the situations they were put in when they were drafted, and the adversity (or lack thereof) they've had to deal with since then, which was precisely Cosell's point when he was asked about Jones, and why I said his evaluation was fair, and essentially that "the jury was still out." You don't want to hear that because you don't like Jones and feel the Giants should move on from him. Well, that's just not going to happen, not this year anyway, no matter what the Iron Laws say.
Situation and adversity sounds like a catch-all excuse. Not sure how to measure it or factor it in. We have seen a body of work from Jones and none of it has been elite. Regarding those excuses the stats say his protection was near league bottom, but not the worst. That's not to say he can't become a star. He might, and I hope he does. But I don't think it is wise to pretend we know he is the answer. If we don't know he is the answer then we should be looking for a definite answer at QB, until he proves it. It is not smart, imo, for an NFL team to spend years waiting for a guy to come around. Each season is incredibly valuable and to squander seasons on a third year guy who hasn't proved it is foolish. And each year that goes by, the lower are his chances of becoming a franchise QB.
You're being disingenuous when you say that Jones might become a star and you hope he does. You think nothing of the sort, which is why you want the Giants to move on from him ASAP. I don't pretend to know if he's the real deal or not, but I'm willing to be patient with him and give him another year (with a much better supporting cast) to show me. Your mind is already made up.
As for situations and adversity, they're not excuses, they're reality. Jones has had abysmal protection, sub par receivers, and last year an anemic running game. Cosell touched on all three. To expect Jones to thrive when faced with all that is unrealistic, as he said.
As for spending "years waiting for a guy to come around," Jones is in year three...two in this offense. Do the Iron Laws give a fixed number of years to determine if a QB is the goods, or are they subject to change? It really doesn't matter. Cosell counseled patience, so I'm going to be patient. Clearly, so are the Giants.
a) I am not being disingenuous. My opinion is how I have stated it. And unless you have the power to read minds you will have to accept my statements on this. I have consistently made an assessment on DJ based on probabilities. Perhaps you do not understand my point.
b) Cosell does not think you have to view QBs with all the tools/weapons. I know this because I am a big Cosell fan and listen to almost all his podcast appearances. He has stated many times you can judge a QB outside of his context. I can direct you to his thoughts on this if you would like. Unlike you, and many on here, Cosell does not share the view that you must give QBs weapons to make an assessment of his traits and abilities.
c) We don't really know what Judge or Cosell for that matter think of Jones. Judge is saying nice things because he has to. Cosell wasn't asked to address Jones' skill set. I think there is reason to believe Cosell does not view Jones as special. His comments in this appearance seems to indicate that he views Jones as a game manager.
But he refrained from saying that was his ceiling, that he could be capable of becoming much more than that (the operative word being "could").
But in your previous post you wrote:
Quote:
. If we don't know he is the answer then we should be looking for a definite answer at QB, until he proves it.
How can he prove it (one way or the other) unless he plays?
Yet it seems to contradict what you wrote after that:
Quote:
It is not smart, imo, for an NFL team to spend years waiting for a guy to come around. Each season is incredibly valuable and to squander seasons on a third year guy who hasn't proved it is foolish. And each year that goes by, the lower are his chances of becoming a franchise QB.
On one hand, you're saying that Jones has to "prove it." On the other, you're saying it would be foolish for the Giants to give him another chance to "prove it," that they should know already. So, which is it?
Also, as I've written previously in other threads recommending that the Giants not move on from Jones right away, they have the opportunity to build a much stronger team on both sides of the ball this year and next. If they decide to move on from Jones, his replacement will inherit a much better team than Jones did.
But he refrained from saying that was his ceiling, that he could be capable of becoming much more than that (the operative word being "could").
But in your previous post you wrote:
Quote:
. If we don't know he is the answer then we should be looking for a definite answer at QB, until he proves it.
How can he prove it (one way or the other) unless he plays?
Yet it seems to contradict what you wrote after that:
Quote:
It is not smart, imo, for an NFL team to spend years waiting for a guy to come around. Each season is incredibly valuable and to squander seasons on a third year guy who hasn't proved it is foolish. And each year that goes by, the lower are his chances of becoming a franchise QB.
On one hand, you're saying that Jones has to "prove it." On the other, you're saying it would be foolish for the Giants to give him another chance to "prove it," that they should know already. So, which is it?
Also, as I've written previously in other threads recommending that the Giants not move on from Jones right away, they have the opportunity to build a much stronger team on both sides of the ball this year and next. If they decide to move on from Jones, his replacement will inherit a much better team than Jones did.
My opinion is that we have him, he's under contract, but the team should look at other prospects in case they fall to us, like Lance. If there is a guy who flashes better traits than Jones who is available I would take him. Jones would be the week one starter no matter what anyway. I am not afraid of competing QBs. Two good prospects battling it out increases the odds we find an elite QB. To me, finding an elite QB is the name of the game in the NFL. Get that and everything else is a lot easier.
He wasn't down on Jones. He said that Jones wasn't a finished product and that until he is, the upside is uncertain. He also said that Jones has all the traits you look for. He essentially said the same thing at the end about all of the QBs in this year's draft, talking about specific limitations of all of them including Lawrence.
But that's what the Giants are doing: giving him a chance. They didn't bring in a backup that could upset the apple cart, and they're unlikely to bring in anyone to truly compete for the starting job between now and August.
Jones is being given an opportunity he hasn't earned through his play on the field; I think this points to a mediocre record in 2021. I think it's a mistaken approach.
RE: RE: he was lukewarm at best when speaking of jones
But that's what the Giants are doing: giving him a chance. They didn't bring in a backup that could upset the apple cart, and they're unlikely to bring in anyone to truly compete for the starting job between now and August.
Jones is being given an opportunity he hasn't earned through his play on the field; I think this points to a mediocre record in 2021. I think it's a mistaken approach.
Who would have you brought in based on the current marketplace ?
When you answer be sure to factor in cap hit (in a flat cap year) - the opportunity cost of what that player would have cost versus what would have been sacrificed given our free agent signings and oh yeah - the player wanting to come here to “compete” versus the other opportunities afforded to the player on a one year deal and the potential that player would will be afforded in 2020 as free agent
But that's what the Giants are doing: giving him a chance. They didn't bring in a backup that could upset the apple cart, and they're unlikely to bring in anyone to truly compete for the starting job between now and August.
Jones is being given an opportunity he hasn't earned through his play on the field; I think this points to a mediocre record in 2021. I think it's a mistaken approach.
Who would have you brought in based on the current marketplace ?
When you answer be sure to factor in cap hit (in a flat cap year) - the opportunity cost of what that player would have cost versus what would have been sacrificed given our free agent signings and oh yeah - the player wanting to come here to “compete” versus the other opportunities afforded to the player on a one year deal and the potential that player would will be afforded in 2020 as free agent
But that's what the Giants are doing: giving him a chance. They didn't bring in a backup that could upset the apple cart, and they're unlikely to bring in anyone to truly compete for the starting job between now and August.
Jones is being given an opportunity he hasn't earned through his play on the field; I think this points to a mediocre record in 2021. I think it's a mistaken approach.
Who would have you brought in based on the current marketplace ?
When you answer be sure to factor in cap hit (in a flat cap year) - the opportunity cost of what that player would have cost versus what would have been sacrificed given our free agent signings and oh yeah - the player wanting to come here to “compete” versus the other opportunities afforded to the player on a one year deal and the potential that player would will be afforded in 2020 as free agent
Please say something dumb like Jacoby Brissett.
The Giants should’ve at least brought in a backup with talent given the fact that Jones is injury prone and misses games every year.
But that's what the Giants are doing: giving him a chance. They didn't bring in a backup that could upset the apple cart, and they're unlikely to bring in anyone to truly compete for the starting job between now and August.
Jones is being given an opportunity he hasn't earned through his play on the field; I think this points to a mediocre record in 2021. I think it's a mistaken approach.
Who would have you brought in based on the current marketplace ?
When you answer be sure to factor in cap hit (in a flat cap year) - the opportunity cost of what that player would have cost versus what would have been sacrificed given our free agent signings and oh yeah - the player wanting to come here to “compete” versus the other opportunities afforded to the player on a one year deal and the potential that player would will be afforded in 2020 as free agent
Please say something dumb like Jacoby Brissett.
The Giants should’ve at least brought in a backup with talent given the fact that Jones is injury prone and misses games every year.
that adding an unproveable QB controversy to an otherwise poor or injured Ol/RB and Wr/Te talent pool under a new coaching staff during a no preseason Covid year would have been a brilliant idea.
But that's what the Giants are doing: giving him a chance. They didn't bring in a backup that could upset the apple cart, and they're unlikely to bring in anyone to truly compete for the starting job between now and August.
Jones is being given an opportunity he hasn't earned through his play on the field; I think this points to a mediocre record in 2021. I think it's a mistaken approach.
Jones has been given nothing for 2 years..two of the worst offensive lines in football, handful of games with a banged up Barkley but majority of games without...2 straight years of having his number 1 receiver a rookie/2nd year 5th rounder who’d fight for a number 3WR role on competent football teams. Giants have been setting Jones up for failure from the outset...what have the Giants ever given Jones his first two years other than an opportunity to captain one of the most inept collection of offensive players in the NFL? I can only imagine trotting 2005 Eli out with the unit Jones played with last year, instead of plax, toomer, shockey, tiki and oline with a pulse..but Eli earned the right to play along with the likes of those players based on earning that right with his stellar 2004 campaign smh.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones shouldn't be given anything
hedged his bets on Adoree' Jackson. People are all over the place when evaluating him. The Giants need him to play at a high level given the money they threw at him.
Couldn’t agree more. I am less enthusiastic about that signing after hearing him. Seems like they paid a lot of money for someone they HOPE can get back to playing at a high level. I really hope that he works out for us.
But that's what the Giants are doing: giving him a chance. They didn't bring in a backup that could upset the apple cart, and they're unlikely to bring in anyone to truly compete for the starting job between now and August.
Jones is being given an opportunity he hasn't earned through his play on the field; I think this points to a mediocre record in 2021. I think it's a mistaken approach.
Jones has been given nothing for 2 years..two of the worst offensive lines in football, handful of games with a banged up Barkley but majority of games without...2 straight years of having his number 1 receiver a rookie/2nd year 5th rounder who’d fight for a number 3WR role on competent football teams. Giants have been setting Jones up for failure from the outset...what have the Giants ever given Jones his first two years other than an opportunity to captain one of the most inept collection of offensive players in the NFL? I can only imagine trotting 2005 Eli out with the unit Jones played with last year, instead of plax, toomer, shockey, tiki and oline with a pulse..but Eli earned the right to play along with the likes of those players based on earning that right with his stellar 2004 campaign smh.
So you agree Gettleman should have been fired for building one of the worst offensive teams in the NFL?
He's the same one that had said Josh Rosen was the best QB in his class and wasn't very impressed with Josh Allen. SO we're supposed to trust him about which non-QB to draft.
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
To be fair, the Cardinals front office felt really good about Rosen as well, enough to make him the 10th overall pick.
Everyone misses, everyone. We're all making our best guesses here.
He's the same one that had said Josh Rosen was the best QB in his class and wasn't very impressed with Josh Allen. SO we're supposed to trust him about which non-QB to draft.
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
If you're referring to the interview Cosell did with a Cleveland radio guy just prior to that "QB Draft" then that's not how I remember it.
While he did mention Rosen as his top choice (which he prefaced by saying, "if I had to choose...") he was not down on Allen. He said that teams will like different QBs depending upon their systems...and that Allen was more of an improvisor when a play breaks down
In any event, I certainly hope you're not suggesting that we should automatically dismiss Cosell's opinion just because he got one wrong a few years ago.
ALL pro talent evaluators get SOME picks wrong. It's the nature of that occupation. Or as George Young used to say (paraphrasing) "Drafting players is just like getting Christmas presents. You never know what you're going to get until you open the box."
All I said is he is not the end all be all.
And he wasn't impressed with Allen. HE spoke of how he liked accurate QB's and Allen was not. HE added just because he is more of a fan of accuracy others look for other things. SO he didn't say the guy stunk or avoid him etc. He makes it clear it depends on what the team is looking for.
He did have Josh Rosen number 1 though. And he was not high on Allen based on his preference. He didn't say Allen was going to stink.
I'd call calling Trubisky (29-21 record as a starter) garbage while suggesting we should believe in Jones (8-18 as a starter) trolling.
You want a sad truth? The sad truth is that if Jones were on the Eagles you'd be right there saying he sucks. And so would everyone else on this board.
but the guy doesn't use superlatives and just points out the guys weaknesses or strengths. In my experience listening to him and I know others have listened to more o him, he calls most QB's system QB's. That's what he called Jones.
hedged his bets on Adoree' Jackson. People are all over the place when evaluating him. The Giants need him to play at a high level given the money they threw at him.
Zack Rosenblatt of nj.com had a phenomenal article on Jackson,that traced his roots,his character,his athleticism,his dedication. Unfortunately,it's behind a paywall,so unless you get nj.com,you can't read it. After reading it,I'm all in on Jackson,as he seems to be the high character,extremely talented player that Judge wants on the Giants!
I'd call calling Trubisky (29-21 record as a starter) garbage while suggesting we should believe in Jones (8-18 as a starter) trolling.
You want a sad truth? The sad truth is that if Jones were on the Eagles you'd be right there saying he sucks. And so would everyone else on this board.
And they'd be right.
Yea it has nothing to do with the talent level. Remember the talk about Eli when the Chargers went 14-2 under Marty Schottenheimer? The Bears were considered a contender during Trubisky’s first few seasons. Did anyone say anything about the Giants talent level the past two years? Any playoff predictions?
I'd call calling Trubisky (29-21 record as a starter) garbage while suggesting we should believe in Jones (8-18 as a starter) trolling.
You want a sad truth? The sad truth is that if Jones were on the Eagles you'd be right there saying he sucks. And so would everyone else on this board.
And they'd be right.
Was Trubisky your answer ? Still waiting on that. Considering someone did the work for you.
(I already know the answer)
For a guy that preaches organizational process and doing things the right way. - you’re hilarious.
He puts the work in and at least is not just throwing opinions without showing why he things the way he does.
QB evaluation is exceptionally difficult and then a big part of it is the the coaching staff and team they play for.
Let's hope Jones plays better with a better team around him. If he plays pretty good they will give him more time. It is not like a QB will magically appear next year. Obviously, if he is just ok and has games that cost the Giants games (turnovers) then they will have to get aggressive finding a replacement. Some franchises have looked decades to find a game altering QB.
who aren't afflicted with the BBI epidemic called - "Dumb" - for rightfully pointing out that it is indeed dumb to castigate Cosell for liking Rosen as a QB out of UCLA.
Posters do that to other posters here almost everyday. They do the "call out" routine by digging up old posts where someone has opinion about a prospect that didn't work out. As if being wrong about a prospect automatically disqualifies you from ever again taking a position on any other prospect.
I'm hoping the CDC can eventually find a vaccine for Dumb; and many BBIers can have access to it. It would certainly help BBI discourse going forward...
I'd call calling Trubisky (29-21 record as a starter) garbage while suggesting we should believe in Jones (8-18 as a starter) trolling.
You want a sad truth? The sad truth is that if Jones were on the Eagles you'd be right there saying he sucks. And so would everyone else on this board.
And they'd be right.
If Jones was on the Eagles, he wouldn't have been 8-18 and the Eagles would have won the division handly..he would have had receivers that can catch, a TE that doesn't tip balls to the defense, and an offensive line.
I think he said that QB stats can be very misleading as a measure of the player, i.e., context (players and scheme around him) matters
Devonte: a bit stiff in the hips and built straight up and down even as he is quite elusive, sees him as an outlier and did not bother to mention him in his top receivers, until Schmelk brought Smith up; interesting
Lawrence: he said he gets 'scattershot' when pressure comes up the middle; long. He stopped short of saying he wouldn't be his #1 QB, but I caught possible implication that Wilson might be his. Very high on Trask as pure passer and a guy who can play under center and do well w/play actionL praised his ability to go play action/back to the d and whips his head around and see the field well. Not high on Mac Jones. Likes Fields.
The Anderson comment was music to our ears.
Said there was only one ER who would fall w/i his top 11: Phillips has baggage.
Slater: Giants have to go with Thomas and Peart ("you can't draft a guy in the 3rd and not play him"), so if an OT is 'only'9th on your overall board, the Giants can't take him at 11.
I'm sure I'm the only one here who finds Schmelk to sound like a breathless teenager trotting out his questions, but the content was good and seems as though he's got a bit of a relationship with Cosell, so all good.
Klaatu: thank you for undressing pretensions of Producer (who must have attended Terps' 'school of hate for DJ') and BSIMatt and Bill2 nominations for posts of the year.
He does a weekly spot on Ross Tucker football podcast and it’s great. He’s very humble and unassuming. Often says how he doesn’t get into off field stuff because he’s just a film guy. Really like listening to him and learn a lot about the game. He’s been watching film for a long time. RT is terrific too.
RE: RE: he was lukewarm at best when speaking of jones
who aren't afflicted with the BBI epidemic called - "Dumb" - for rightfully pointing out that it is indeed dumb to castigate Cosell for liking Rosen as a QB out of UCLA.
Posters do that to other posters here almost everyday. They do the "call out" routine by digging up old posts where someone has opinion about a prospect that didn't work out. As if being wrong about a prospect automatically disqualifies you from ever again taking a position on any other prospect.
I'm hoping the CDC can eventually find a vaccine for Dumb; and many BBIers can have access to it. It would certainly help BBI discourse going forward...
Great. I guess next time when one of us criticizes Dave Gettleman and it gets thrown back in our face that we aren't a scout and DG is - you'd agree with them too that we can't go back in a prior time and criticize DG in any manner.
My post about Cosell was very mild. We can get reminded on here that SY is not perfect (I've agreed with SY and sent posts saying so only to get thrown back in my face that SY is not perfect) and not much is said about that.
But I say similar to Cosell vs we criticize DG or someone nitpicking SY and it's "How dare I?"
Any of Brissett, Mariota, or Taylor made sense as targets
But that would probably have invited calls for a change a couple weeks in.
I don't hate Jones. I just hate watching the Giants lose, and Jones does a lot of things that contribute to the Giants losing.
I'm perplexed at the animosity towards having a better backup. Jones should easily beat those guys out. That's not 'real' competition unless Jones badly struggles during multiple regular season games.
but the guy doesn't use superlatives and just points out the guys weaknesses or strengths. In my experience listening to him and I know others have listened to more o him, he calls most QB's system QB's. That's what he called Jones.
I'm as sensitive as anyone to Jones criticism but I'm completely shocked how negatively what he said about Jones was taken. He basically said RIGHT NOW entering his third season Jones is a system QB and we'll have to see if he becomes more. How many QBs in the history of the NFL were more than system QBs coming into the third season? He didn't say that's all he'll ever be either. This is such a non-story.
RE: Any of Brissett, Mariota, or Taylor made sense as targets
But that would probably have invited calls for a change a couple weeks in.
I don't hate Jones. I just hate watching the Giants lose, and Jones does a lot of things that contribute to the Giants losing.
Please listen.
Judge said, "Don't tell me what a player can't do."
That was nice hear. I have "heard" a lot good shit from coaches. I give no fucks for what they say anymore.
You know what Jones has been doing consistently since a Freshman at Duke?
Make tight window throws because his players at Duke didn't get open.
The one thing Jones has done since coming to the Giants?
Make accurate tight window throws down the field. Some QBs won't make those throws. Jones has a history of throwing them.
What is Golloday great at?
I will wait.
What is Rudolph good at?
They aren't done.
The decisions just got a lot easier for Jones. Add one of the elite skill position players routinely projected to the Giants and it is going to much better than average.
Chill out Terps.
Judge sees what Jones can do well and can exploit it.
He's the same one that had said Josh Rosen was the best QB in his class and wasn't very impressed with Josh Allen. SO we're supposed to trust him about which non-QB to draft.
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
christian said this on another thread better than I could; I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him here:
Quote:
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christian : 12:27 pm : link : reply
It's always about roster architecture. The Giants have a win now defense, with a bunch of 2nd contract, prime players on 2-3 year deals.
The offense is currently counting on:
- Jones bouncing back from an 11 TD, 14 start season
- Barkley bouncing back from a torn ACL
- Golladay bouncing back from a mysterious 9 week hip strain
- An UDFA, 5th round, 3rd round, and veteran bust contributing to the offensive line
If much of that turns out in the Giants favor, and they are competing for a championship over the next few years, I'll be happy to give Rabbit Foot Dave his credit.
Without picking on posters who use "roster architecture " as a concept
For use in critiquing any Front Office; I don't get it as a useful framework even if it's a nice sounding set of words.
The NFL gives you an average of 6-7 draft slots. Per year
If you got 5 players by year two then you are beating the odds.
You need 53 players plus enough player access above that to field against and annual injury rate of 25%. So about 66 per year.
You have an average career in a violent sport of 4 years.
These are realities.
When I hear critiques of any one year of "roster architecture" I'm at the third day of a drink allowed conference on "Building 50 Story Skyscrapers in Venice".
Which should posters attend:
Workshop A: Using more steel so you can go higher than 50 in the years ahead?
Workshop B: Using more wood so that when your creation falls you have less of a clean up bill?
Workshop C: Going deeper into the mud with more concrete in the foundation?
Is this the conference or the construct for any promising architect who wants to get better at understanding their chosen game?
Mariota would absolutely push Jones for the starting role
He's the same one that had said Josh Rosen was the best QB in his class and wasn't very impressed with Josh Allen. SO we're supposed to trust him about which non-QB to draft.
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
But I want all those posting “well, who could you bring in who could possibly be in the same range as Daniel Jones” to shut the heck up. Mariota would have cost about the double as Toilolo and actually filled a critical position.
Actually, let me bring up another question. If we are loaded up for a division run, why exactly are we barren at the backup QB position? Even if Jones plays well, there is a high likelihood that he will miss time. So investing in Mariota would be significant even he is just a backup. And meanwhile we let the guy who was QB during the team’s biggest win in half a decade sign with Arizona. Why exactly did we do that?
Given the insider comments about the Adoree and Golladay overpays, I am still waiting to see whether the Giants FO has turned the corner. It’s very much in doubt. Looking at the QB planning, there is more action yet to come or the Giants are continuing to be sloppy and ill prepared.
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
Building a roster absolutely should be planned out
especially if you are going thru a pretty big rebuild because there are more variables at play. You may need 53 guys but that doesn’t mean the architectural thought process for #51 requires the same energy for say #3 thru #12. Good and bad fortune, avg length of service and positional supply and demand all come into play, but it’s still a process that deserves detailed attention.
When you hear the phrase “ it seems like every year is a rebuilding year” then you know you have the wrong architects...
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
.. and in fact Cosell never said Rosen would be a good pro. He just pointed out what was good about him. And he was correct. Rosen throws a good ball with timing and anticipation. He did show that in the NFL. But Cosell doesn't predict who will be great and who will not. He tells you what traits and attributes he sees on tape.
RE: RE: Any of Brissett, Mariota, or Taylor made sense as targets
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
.. and in fact Cosell never said Rosen would be a good pro. He just pointed out what was good about him. And he was correct. Rosen throws a good ball with timing and anticipation. He did show that in the NFL. But Cosell doesn't predict who will be great and who will not. He tells you what traits and attributes he sees on tape.
In fact Cosell rated the QB's. Rosen was his number 1. He specifically said he prefers accurate pocket QB's. He specifically has said others prefer rollout QB's etc. But he prefers pocket QB's. And Rosen was his number 1.
Chris Carter thought Rosen was highly overrated.
You're making it sound like all Cosell talks about is "throwing a good ball."
Every talent evaluator and every gm gets some wrong. Rating football
players is not an exact science. But some, over the long haul, get more right and less wrong than others. Cosell is generally considered to be one of the best.
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
.. and in fact Cosell never said Rosen would be a good pro. He just pointed out what was good about him. And he was correct. Rosen throws a good ball with timing and anticipation. He did show that in the NFL. But Cosell doesn't predict who will be great and who will not. He tells you what traits and attributes he sees on tape.
In fact Cosell rated the QB's. Rosen was his number 1. He specifically said he prefers accurate pocket QB's. He specifically has said others prefer rollout QB's etc. But he prefers pocket QB's. And Rosen was his number 1.
Chris Carter thought Rosen was highly overrated.
You're making it sound like all Cosell talks about is "throwing a good ball."
Cosell has never said he prefers pocket QBs. You are misrepresenting his comments. He HAS said that he thinks a QB needs to win from the pocket. So, for him, a QB needs that skill to be successful. But not at the exclusion of designed roll outs and second reaction plays.
There is nothing wrong with preferring pocket QB or not. --
It's just that Cosell is so much more than what you are are suggesting Producer. He talks about presence in the pocket etc.
You are making him sound like a H/S analyst.
read my comment just above. Cosell does not say he prefers a pocket QB/ Though he says to be successful long term in the NFL a QB must learn to make plays from the pocket.
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
.. and in fact Cosell never said Rosen would be a good pro. He just pointed out what was good about him. And he was correct. Rosen throws a good ball with timing and anticipation. He did show that in the NFL. But Cosell doesn't predict who will be great and who will not. He tells you what traits and attributes he sees on tape.
In fact Cosell rated the QB's. Rosen was his number 1. He specifically said he prefers accurate pocket QB's. He specifically has said others prefer rollout QB's etc. But he prefers pocket QB's. And Rosen was his number 1.
Chris Carter thought Rosen was highly overrated.
You're making it sound like all Cosell talks about is "throwing a good ball."
Cosell has never said he prefers pocket QBs. You are misrepresenting his comments. He HAS said that he thinks a QB needs to win from the pocket. So, for him, a QB needs that skill to be successful. But not at the exclusion of designed roll outs and second reaction plays.
He absolutely did say he prefers pocket QB's that are highly accurate. He said he is old school in that way.
And there is NOT one bit wrong saying that.
He values accuracy highly among other things. Nothing wrong with that.
the same people that say Jones needs a great offensive line and all pro wide receivers that get separation and a tight end that can catch and block and a first round running back? Just wondering because I wonder how anyone thinks Jones would have done in Arizona or Miami under the same circumstances? And, let’s say we did draft Josh Rosen. Are people thinking he would be worse than Jones has been? How exactly? More turn overs? Less TDs? Injured more? Would Rosen have less wins than Jones? It’s kind of hard to imagine isn’t it? Kind of curious b/c a lot people here are killing Cosell for being wrong about Rosen. How good could Rosen have been in his circumstance? And shouldn’t he get all the same benefits of the doubt and time to grow as Jones?
Anyway, one thing we know, after three seasons you pretty much know what you have at the QB1. It’s time for Jones to win some games. And if he’s a game manager as the sixth pick in the draft that’s a miss and a disappointment. Jones wasn’t drafted to be a game manager any more than Barks was drafted to be a two down back.
players is not an exact science. But some, over the long haul, get more right and less wrong than others. Cosell is generally considered to be one of the best.
And it's not just about getting it right or wrong. There are many reasons that players do not live up to expectations beyond talent. Cosell is great because of the way he succinctly frames his evaluations and intelligently reaches conclusions, most of which he carefully discounts with appropriate caveats. I see him more like an NFL personnel scientist who works exhaustively developing carefully considered hypotheses. I never recall him bombastically declaring a point of view about any player ala Kiper.
That Rosen evaluation is just puzzling in retrospect
Sy gave him a very high numerical grade. And the guy is on his third team without ever playing a lot. He has to be among the most disappointing players to be drafted in the last decade.
I’m really hoping to see a knowledgeable account of the entire debacle in the next couple of years, complete with unvarnished quotes from NFL GMs et al.
I went back again with that Cleveland interview. He said he prefers structure. And isn't "structure" a pocket-passer.? If it isn't I apologize.
Well I have heard him extensively over the years. It is possible he has evolved on the secondary play stuff, as we have all had to. Recently I have heard him say that he thinks running QBs, like Lamar, have to be able to make plays from the pocket in order to have sustained success. I think that is his latest view. So in a way he is saying pocket play is still so important. And I would add, I don;t know if it is a matter of *preference* or if it is a conclusion of what he has seen based on tape watching. The thing about Cosell is, you know if some QB comes out and wins without making plays from the pocket, he will change his opinion. He will tell you what the tape says about that. But so far, no QB has really ever won a Super Bowl without the pocket component of the game.
RE: That Rosen evaluation is just puzzling in retrospect
Sy gave him a very high numerical grade. And the guy is on his third team without ever playing a lot. He has to be among the most disappointing players to be drafted in the last decade.
I’m really hoping to see a knowledgeable account of the entire debacle in the next couple of years, complete with unvarnished quotes from NFL GMs et al.
After the '18 season, and I need to find the thread, but Sy was saying that Rosen made some of the best throws he saw that year with Arizona. But he really couldn't thrive because the overall personnel was so poor.
And this matched up with what I saw because I was very interested in seeing how Rosen was doing. He made some brilliant throws. But I thought he would be a bit more athletic than what he showed.
If you recall, the narrative quickly turned to Rosen's personality after Arizona ditched him for Murray. But there wasn't really anything to support that...
I went back again with that Cleveland interview. He said he prefers structure. And isn't "structure" a pocket-passer.? If it isn't I apologize.
Well I have heard him extensively over the years. It is possible he has evolved on the secondary play stuff, as we have all had to. Recently I have heard him say that he thinks running QBs, like Lamar, have to be able to make plays from the pocket in order to have sustained success. I think that is his latest view. So in a way he is saying pocket play is still so important. And I would add, I don;t know if it is a matter of *preference* or if it is a conclusion of what he has seen based on tape watching. The thing about Cosell is, you know if some QB comes out and wins without making plays from the pocket, he will change his opinion. He will tell you what the tape says about that. But so far, no QB has really ever won a Super Bowl without the pocket component of the game.
Lamar Jackson is going to put the Ravens in an awkward position when his rookie contract expires if he doesn’t progress in the pocket. When push comes to shove, against playoff caliber defenses you don’t have the chance to improvise. It is not just Lamar Jackson. Josh Allen has looked weaker in the playoffs than he has in the regular season. To win you need to be able to make quick reads and I am not sure Jackson has that if his outs running the ball aren’t there.
But that's what the Giants are doing: giving him a chance. They didn't bring in a backup that could upset the apple cart, and they're unlikely to bring in anyone to truly compete for the starting job between now and August.
Jones is being given an opportunity he hasn't earned through his play on the field; I think this points to a mediocre record in 2021. I think it's a mistaken approach.
You always gloss over or ignore that there's shit going on behind the scenes that we can't relate to. Coaches are evaluating players on how they progress from game to game. On how they practice. On how they work on and off the field.
You act like you know everything. No one knows what Jones will do this coming year, including you, but Judge has formed an educated opinion and take based on his first hand knowledge of who and what Jones is.
No one knows as much as Judge knows. QBs have gone from bad to good in year 3 so many times over the last 50 years. But you're certain. Sure.
RE: RE: That Rosen evaluation is just puzzling in retrospect
Sy gave him a very high numerical grade. And the guy is on his third team without ever playing a lot. He has to be among the most disappointing players to be drafted in the last decade.
I’m really hoping to see a knowledgeable account of the entire debacle in the next couple of years, complete with unvarnished quotes from NFL GMs et al.
After the '18 season, and I need to find the thread, but Sy was saying that Rosen made some of the best throws he saw that year with Arizona. But he really couldn't thrive because the overall personnel was so poor.
And this matched up with what I saw because I was very interested in seeing how Rosen was doing. He made some brilliant throws. But I thought he would be a bit more athletic than what he showed.
If you recall, the narrative quickly turned to Rosen's personality after Arizona ditched him for Murray. But there wasn't really anything to support that...
Kind of weird you would excuse a QB because of the poor personnel around him.
christian said this on another thread better than I could; I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him here:
Quote:
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christian : 12:27 pm : link : reply
It's always about roster architecture. The Giants have a win now defense, with a bunch of 2nd contract, prime players on 2-3 year deals.
The offense is currently counting on:
- Jones bouncing back from an 11 TD, 14 start season
- Barkley bouncing back from a torn ACL
- Golladay bouncing back from a mysterious 9 week hip strain
- An UDFA, 5th round, 3rd round, and veteran bust contributing to the offensive line
If much of that turns out in the Giants favor, and they are competing for a championship over the next few years, I'll be happy to give Rabbit Foot Dave his credit.
2005:
Vet defense in "win now mode" with guys like Strahan, Pierce, Robbins, Madison and a few younger up n comers like Osi, Webster (who still sucked) and Wilson.
Offense was depending on a young QB named Eli Manning who stunk up the joint in 2004, save for 2-3 bright moments. A left tackle no one liked in Luke. Young Snee. Young Diehl. Vet FA Plax who was coming in here with more warts than Galloday. Everyone hates Engram but he's a productive receiving TE.
I don't even care to go on. It's just fascinating how some of you spin shit to fit into the agenda.
Tampa was going nowhere. NOWHERE. They were bad for YEARS. Saw a window, signed Brady and killed everyone. How's that for a "model?"
Belickick was smarter than everyone for decades because, according to BBI, he never spent FA money. Until now. Is he dumb? Or was that widely held belief pretty much bullshit?
to ignore that Brissett is making 5 million this year while Glennon is making over 3 million less. Also worth noting that Brisett might be the most milk toast, mediocre QB going.
Yeah, lets bring in the most average QB ever and "push" Jones. BEcause we all know that's the sure fire way to win and sustain winning in the NFL.
No one is winning fuck all with Brisett as the long term answer. The Colts couldn't wait to bring in the corpse of Phillip Rivers and bench this guy.
If Jones sucks, we will go all in on another QB. ONe that has more upside than BRisett or MAriotta.
when the response to having a QB on "scholarship" is to bring in competition from QB's who have just as long of a history or more of playing poorly.
If one of those guys is supposedly going to push Jones for playing time or be better, then why isn't the logic that Jones could get better as well??
I'm just happy we aren't bombarded with how great nick Mullens is anymore.
I don't even want to sound like I think it's a terrible idea. It's ok guess. If the Giants brought in MArriotta I wouldn't bitch about it. I kind of like his under the radar potential, perhaps, or even Brisett. They are steady. They aren't terrible. That's fine. But it's not the secret sauce to winning. Not even close.
Every fucking move is twisted into this doom and gloom shit. It's old.
Now we have to read about roster architecture. The fuck out of here. Tampa literally laughed in the face of this crap and won a title based on going all in on a roster of misfits and cast offs. JPP was a bum here? He wins a title there. Antonio BRown is a team cancer? Title winning player there. Fournette? Check.
It comes down to player evaluations and player development. At some point, you have to trust the process at times and go all in on a young player that isn't a sure fire known commodity. You have to trust what your eyes, ears and gut tell you. You have to go on faith, sometimes it's partially blind faith. The smartest and most astute and pragmatic football EXECS have lived and died with this philosophy.
The Giants have lived and died on this philosophy. It's not always football scholarship or country club confines. It's giving young players a chance. If you cut bait every 2 years on a high profile player you aint winning shit. We aren't the BRowns. We aren't the Jets. The Giants are going to exercice loyalty and patience. SOmetimes it works (84-90) and 04-2012) and sometimes it doesn't (94-96) (14-18)
Jones wouldn't be the QB in 2021 if he didn't earn the trust and belief from this staff. Like it or not he's going to get every chance to cement his place as a good starting NFL QB. It's year 3, second with this staff, not year 5.
After the '18 season, and I need to find the thread, but Sy was saying that Rosen made some of the best throws he saw that year with Arizona. But he really couldn't thrive because the overall personnel was so poor.
And this matched up with what I saw because I was very interested in seeing how Rosen was doing. He made some brilliant throws. But I thought he would be a bit more athletic than what he showed.
If you recall, the narrative quickly turned to Rosen's personality after Arizona ditched him for Murray. But there wasn't really anything to support that...
Kind of weird you would excuse a QB because of the poor personnel around him.
Why? Rosen was a rookie playing for a horrible team.
Operative word rookie.
RE: RE: Mariota would absolutely push Jones for the starting role
After the '18 season, and I need to find the thread, but Sy was saying that Rosen made some of the best throws he saw that year with Arizona. But he really couldn't thrive because the overall personnel was so poor.
And this matched up with what I saw because I was very interested in seeing how Rosen was doing. He made some brilliant throws. But I thought he would be a bit more athletic than what he showed.
If you recall, the narrative quickly turned to Rosen's personality after Arizona ditched him for Murray. But there wasn't really anything to support that...
Kind of weird you would excuse a QB because of the poor personnel around him.
Why? Rosen was a rookie playing for a horrible team.
Operative word rookie.
Your bile is only surpassed by your inconsistency.
After the '18 season, and I need to find the thread, but Sy was saying that Rosen made some of the best throws he saw that year with Arizona. But he really couldn't thrive because the overall personnel was so poor.
And this matched up with what I saw because I was very interested in seeing how Rosen was doing. He made some brilliant throws. But I thought he would be a bit more athletic than what he showed.
If you recall, the narrative quickly turned to Rosen's personality after Arizona ditched him for Murray. But there wasn't really anything to support that...
Kind of weird you would excuse a QB because of the poor personnel around him.
Why? Rosen was a rookie playing for a horrible team.
Operative word rookie.
Your bile is only surpassed by your inconsistency.
Not sure what you are talking about specifically. So if you want to engage in something specific then shoot.
by the day that NYG would like to get 1 of Pitts, Smith, or Waddle
I agree with this.
Where it gets interesting (though unlikely, of course) is... what if several teams share the Giants' concern with the opt-out prospects, and Chase is the receiver who slides to #11?
We don't discuss Chase much because there's such a low likelihood that he'd be available at our pick, but what if he ends up sliding behind Smith/Pitts/Waddle for the teams ahead of us, and he's there but none of the other three are?
I assume the Giants would take Chase in that scenario, but I do wonder whether they are viewing the opt-outs as just a tiebreaker between similarly graded prospects, or if they see opting out as a true downgrade.
The opt outs shouldn't be viewed with a broad brush.
Those are issues best broached with a meeting with the player. I believe that's still possible, have not heard anything to the contrary.
Players shouldn't be punished for option out for any variety of personal reasons.
There's a player in the draft who opted out because he lost four (4!) family members as a result of covid. If he falls because someone looked at a paper and saw 'opt out', then shame on everyone involved.
RE: The opt outs shouldn't be viewed with a broad brush.
There's a player in the draft who opted out because he lost four (4!) family members as a result of covid. If he falls because someone looked at a paper and saw 'opt out', then shame on everyone involved.
Good point. And since Covid has hit the black community at a much higher rate than it makes sense why someone would want to avoid the risk.
RE: The opt outs shouldn't be viewed with a broad brush.
Those are issues best broached with a meeting with the player. I believe that's still possible, have not heard anything to the contrary.
Players shouldn't be punished for option out for any variety of personal reasons.
There's a player in the draft who opted out because he lost four (4!) family members as a result of covid. If he falls because someone looked at a paper and saw 'opt out', then shame on everyone involved.
I agree with that sentiment. I also think the benefit of the doubt should extend to players who opted out in general, and not just because we don't know the specifics. I tend to think that anyone who opted out, knowing that it could be a knock against them that could potentially cost them a lot of money by sliding even a few picks in the draft (if not more), probably did so because their concern for their health and that of their family outweighed their concern for their draft slot.
But that probably doesn't apply to all of the opt-outs, either. There may have been some that felt that they had proven all they needed to and would have entered the draft in 2020 had they been allowed, but used the opt-out as a cover for simply doing what Jadeveon Clowney had strongly considered doing in his final collegiate season because he was widely presumed to be the top pick after 2012 but not eligible until the 2014 draft.
So, which players opted out in spite of the risk to their draft status and which players opted out to avoid risking their draft status? That's the million dollar question, and I do hope the Giants aren't painting all of them with the same broad brush. All we've heard so far though is that they're viewing the opt-outs less favorably than guys who chose to play in 2020. How much of that is a general POV vs. each individual player is not something we've gotten much insight on yet (or if we have, I've missed it).
but in a situation like this I cannot see a player opting out of football in a 'red flag' type of way. It would be self-harmful.
I just don't see guys taking a year off for the hell of it, or out of general laziness. The top of the draft guys are being advised by agents who have their cut of his future earnings at stake, and who know how NFL teams would react if a potential player only opted out because they didn't want to work.
The midlevel hopefuls wouldn't opt out unless it was serious, because they want in to the league and want every opportunity to post good tape.
There's always outliers where you find out a drafted player has poor work habits, but I think those guys are a really tiny majority of the 300+ guys who get drafted or UDFA every year. Elite level college football has a good way of weeding out people who don't have the desire.
but in a situation like this I cannot see a player opting out of football in a 'red flag' type of way. It would be self-harmful.
I just don't see guys taking a year off for the hell of it, or out of general laziness. The top of the draft guys are being advised by agents who have their cut of his future earnings at stake, and who know how NFL teams would react if a potential player only opted out because they didn't want to work.
The midlevel hopefuls wouldn't opt out unless it was serious, because they want in to the league and want every opportunity to post good tape.
There's always outliers where you find out a drafted player has poor work habits, but I think those guys are a really tiny majority of the 300+ guys who get drafted or UDFA every year. Elite level college football has a good way of weeding out people who don't have the desire.
I agree with you, generally, on this. But obviously the Giants seem to have some sort of eye on a few players that they must think have opted out for selfish reasons, otherwise why would there be any chatter at all about them having a preference for guys who didn't opt out? Could be as simple as they just view the prospect as a safer choice with more recent tape, but it could also be that they have questions about whether any of the players opted out to avoid putting any regression on tape.
I don't know if that's the case with any player at all, and it's unfair to assume that it even could be. This is purely speculation on my part to link it to some sort of similarity to when Jadeveon Clowney considered sitting out his final season at South Carolina in 2013 because his 2012 season had already put him in the discussion for #1 overall.
And to the extent that the Clowney situation (he did wind up playing in '13, of course, and did take a large step back from '12, but remained a top-10 pick) could have any similarities here, AND that any of this year's top prospects might have had some advice that pointed to Clowney's 2013 season as a cautionary tale, is it a huge stretch to wonder if a player like Sewell who was already basically locked in as OT1 or Chase who was clearly the presumptive WR1 for 2021 after the 2019 season (and could justifiably have been looking at a huge step down in the quality of the LSU offense in 2020), might have looked at the chance to opt out as an opportunity to avoid more than just the direct risk of Covid?
Like I said, I wouldn't want to assume that of anyone, especially doing so without really being mindful of the state of the pandemic at the time when they chose to opt out, but it sounds like the Giants are curious enough to at least be doing their due diligence on it.
are one of those situations arising from the COVID situation and it adds another layer of due diligence, but I can see why players opted out for reasons even that aren't COVID-related. If you have a family that you want to set up for life, you could be getting pressured from them to stay off the field and not jeopardize a high draft slot.
we had a situation here in HS of one of the top prep RB's passing up football this Spring (they pushed the schedule back) or playing lacrosse where he was a top player in the country to protect his spot at Clemson. In fact, he didn't technically opt out, he graduated a semester early and already enrolled at Clemson.
Then there are the cases as Dunk mentioned above where players have COVID-related reasons. Where family members have been stricken, etc.
I think you just have to give a little more scrutiny, but just opting out shouldn't be a removal from a board automatically.
If Chase makes it to #11 because the teams before us were
Feels Giants go with Peart at RT (to me, he will compete with Solder) so he doesn't see Slater chosen. Sees Waddle and Pitts gone at #11.
If that's the case. Jaelen Phillips?
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
If you're referring to the interview Cosell did with a Cleveland radio guy just prior to that "QB Draft" then that's not how I remember it.
While he did mention Rosen as his top choice (which he prefaced by saying, "if I had to choose...") he was not down on Allen. He said that teams will like different QBs depending upon their systems...and that Allen was more of an improvisor when a play breaks down
In any event, I certainly hope you're not suggesting that we should automatically dismiss Cosell's opinion just because he got one wrong a few years ago.
ALL pro talent evaluators get SOME picks wrong. It's the nature of that occupation. Or as George Young used to say (paraphrasing) "Drafting players is just like getting Christmas presents. You never know what you're going to get until you open the box."
He tells you what a player is....not what he can be...so in a way, he was right about Rosen and Allen. Allen has turned into a very good QB....but at the time of draft....he was very raw. Rosen was a very polished college QB....attitude, circumstances has derailed him...
He does not interview players....he is a primary film source.
You need to hear what Cosell says about the player....and use that information to draw conclusions.
He did not say who the Giants should draft....he said Pitts (Evans) is an offensive weapon and Waddle (T.Hill)...J.Phillips is the best de edge but has baggage....which he doesn't really know much about....Chase is best pure WR.....he goes into traits of the QBs.
To take advantage....you need to listen to Cosell...not just the headlines.
Rosen had perfect height, was a special thrower of the football, and very smart. If he clicked, you had a franchise QB. It didn't work out. Most won't. But he had tools.
To now disregard Cosell's opinion moving forward shows an inability to consume the information properly. Unfortunate, because Cosell is inarguably one of the best.
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
Why “trust” anything? Can’t he be good at his jobs and not get it 100% right like every other person in the business?
To me it’s about the information you give and how you give it. Cosell is great, basically the opposite of talking heads like Kiper who don’t give you much substance, or none at all.
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
A lot of people had them ranked that way.
He tells you what a player is....not what he can be...so in a way, he was right about Rosen and Allen. Allen has turned into a very good QB....but at the time of draft....he was very raw. Rosen was a very polished college QB....attitude, circumstances has derailed him...
He does not interview players....he is a primary film source.
You need to hear what Cosell says about the player....and use that information to draw conclusions.
He did not say who the Giants should draft....he said Pitts (Evans) is an offensive weapon and Waddle (T.Hill)...J.Phillips is the best de edge but has baggage....which he doesn't really know much about....Chase is best pure WR.....he goes into traits of the QBs.
To take advantage....you need to listen to Cosell...not just the headlines.
You sure love the ellipsis.
I agree, and also understanding the player and what will motivate them going forward is something we as fans and most draft evaluators don't have access to. That's why they always say they draft for the player, not the position. They have much more access to spending time with the player and their coaches than any draft guy, and that clearly is extremely important. Because it's never completely predictable, some projections don't work out; projecting personality is really hard, and injuries are unpredictable.
And system is important as well. Some quarterbacks wind up in the wrong system and it affects their confidence and success throughout their careers. These decisions involve millions and are really hard. Makes you respect the people who get things right most of the time.
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
No one is the end all be all but cosell is better than most if not better than everyone. He’s well prepared and doesnt pander to idiots.
I'm intrigued with this fit as well. I think there's potential for more there. And Ryan brings that "dog mentality". That's an underrated quality and missing element of the Giants front 7.
Yep, there’s been a few YouTube videos saying the exact opposite of that, showing that Smith is more than capable off the line and the ways he uses his body to get open quickly
JINTin Adirondacks : 3/24/2021 4:52 pm : link : reply
In comment 15196151 JINTin Adirondacks said:
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In comment [url.ants defense is in good shape.
I have a feeling this guy is gonna go off under Judge and Graham and turnout to be a huge FA signing. [/quote] Anderson that is
I think that four of those came during the final 6 games of the 2019 season when he received extensive playing including the only 4 starts of the season. He also had 4 sacks in those 6 games.
I’m cautiously optimistic about Ryan Anderson but I love these type of signings. He’s not going to be a star but Anderson could turn out to be a good player for the Giants now that he has a real opportunity to earn significant playing time.
The Giants will almost certainly draft an edge rusher early in the draft and there should be a fierce competition in training camp for roster spots between Carter, Ogdenigbo, Anderson, Ximines, Brown, Coughlin, and the draft pick. It wouldn’t surprise me if the Giants try to trade Ximines during the draft but I don’t think there will be much interest in him.
at best.. but mention that and some people lose their minds.
The "minor" free agent signings this year have been superb. Anderson, Ragland, Ross and Shelton in particular can be huge difference makers in 2021.
The Giants need him to stay healthy. His talent is undeniable, it's his durability that's questionable. Same as Golladay.
Why would he be otherwise? It's not like Jones lit it up last year. Still, I took his evaluation more like "the jury is still out," which is fair.
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Why would he be otherwise? It's not like Jones lit it up last year. Still, I took his evaluation more like "the jury is still out," which is fair.
The longer the jury remains out the lower the probability he is the answer. This is an iron law of sports which some here seem to forget.
Why would he be otherwise? It's not like Jones lit it up last year. Still, I took his evaluation more like "the jury is still out," which is fair.
The longer the jury remains out the lower the probability he is the answer. This is an iron law of sports which some here seem to forget.
Is it really? Can you post a list of the Iron Laws of Sports? I've never seen one before.
Regardless, the jury is going to be deliberating Jones' fate for at least one more year, and it's clear that the Giants are doing everything they can to set him up for success. As Ric Flair was wont to say, "Whether you like it or not, learn to love it."
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In comment 15208226 Klaatu said:
Why would he be otherwise? It's not like Jones lit it up last year. Still, I took his evaluation more like "the jury is still out," which is fair.
The longer the jury remains out the lower the probability he is the answer. This is an iron law of sports which some here seem to forget.
Is it really? Can you post a list of the Iron Laws of Sports? I've never seen one before.
Regardless, the jury is going to be deliberating Jones' fate for at least one more year, and it's clear that the Giants are doing everything they can to set him up for success. As Ric Flair was wont to say, "Whether you like it or not, learn to love it."
Yes, that is an iron law. It is not just true, it is common sense. Compare two QBs that are the same age, if one has *made it* and the other hasn't, chances are the one who has *made it* will have the better career. Compare two other QBs who are a year apart, if they have achieved the same level of production, the younger one is the better bet to *make it*.
Bill James observed many years ago that a 20 yr old prospect who is at the same level as a 21 or 22 yr old, is ahead of them. Those are the probabilities. Doesn't mean it will always work out that way. But that's probability, whether you make bad jokes about it or not.
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In comment 15208264 Producer said:
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In comment 15208226 Klaatu said:
Why would he be otherwise? It's not like Jones lit it up last year. Still, I took his evaluation more like "the jury is still out," which is fair.
The longer the jury remains out the lower the probability he is the answer. This is an iron law of sports which some here seem to forget.
Is it really? Can you post a list of the Iron Laws of Sports? I've never seen one before.
Regardless, the jury is going to be deliberating Jones' fate for at least one more year, and it's clear that the Giants are doing everything they can to set him up for success. As Ric Flair was wont to say, "Whether you like it or not, learn to love it."
Yes, that is an iron law. It is not just true, it is common sense. Compare two QBs that are the same age, if one has *made it* and the other hasn't, chances are the one who has *made it* will have the better career. Compare two other QBs who are a year apart, if they have achieved the same level of production, the younger one is the better bet to *make it*.
Bill James observed many years ago that a 20 yr old prospect who is at the same level as a 21 or 22 yr old, is ahead of them. Those are the probabilities. Doesn't mean it will always work out that way. But that's probability, whether you make bad jokes about it or not.
Haha, the fucking worst!
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In comment 15208279 Klaatu said:
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In comment 15208264 Producer said:
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In comment 15208226 Klaatu said:
Why would he be otherwise? It's not like Jones lit it up last year. Still, I took his evaluation more like "the jury is still out," which is fair.
The longer the jury remains out the lower the probability he is the answer. This is an iron law of sports which some here seem to forget.
Is it really? Can you post a list of the Iron Laws of Sports? I've never seen one before.
Regardless, the jury is going to be deliberating Jones' fate for at least one more year, and it's clear that the Giants are doing everything they can to set him up for success. As Ric Flair was wont to say, "Whether you like it or not, learn to love it."
Yes, that is an iron law. It is not just true, it is common sense. Compare two QBs that are the same age, if one has *made it* and the other hasn't, chances are the one who has *made it* will have the better career. Compare two other QBs who are a year apart, if they have achieved the same level of production, the younger one is the better bet to *make it*.
Bill James observed many years ago that a 20 yr old prospect who is at the same level as a 21 or 22 yr old, is ahead of them. Those are the probabilities. Doesn't mean it will always work out that way. But that's probability, whether you make bad jokes about it or not.
Haha, the fucking worst!
because math, science and logic are mysteries to you.
I think he will show up for the most part but will always be maddening in some respects
think he is a borderline top 10 qb at best, which isnt bad at all
probably enough to win it all if most of the other parts are in place
Situation and adversity sounds like a catch-all excuse. Not sure how to measure it or factor it in. We have seen a body of work from Jones and none of it has been elite. Regarding those excuses the stats say his protection was near league bottom, but not the worst. That's not to say he can't become a star. He might, and I hope he does. But I don't think it is wise to pretend we know he is the answer. If we don't know he is the answer then we should be looking for a definite answer at QB, until he proves it. It is not smart, imo, for an NFL team to spend years waiting for a guy to come around. Each season is incredibly valuable and to squander seasons on a third year guy who hasn't proved it is foolish. And each year that goes by, the lower are his chances of becoming a franchise QB.
His suddenness off the line/ability to create instant separation, great hands and competitive drive is impossible to defend. He can get deep too. He would be the perfect compliment to Golladay. Shepard in the slot.
Golladay - Devonta Smith - Shepard. Plus Rudolph & Barkley. That's tough to defend.
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You're ignoring the situations they were put in when they were drafted, and the adversity (or lack thereof) they've had to deal with since then, which was precisely Cosell's point when he was asked about Jones, and why I said his evaluation was fair, and essentially that "the jury was still out." You don't want to hear that because you don't like Jones and feel the Giants should move on from him. Well, that's just not going to happen, not this year anyway, no matter what the Iron Laws say.
Situation and adversity sounds like a catch-all excuse. Not sure how to measure it or factor it in. We have seen a body of work from Jones and none of it has been elite. Regarding those excuses the stats say his protection was near league bottom, but not the worst. That's not to say he can't become a star. He might, and I hope he does. But I don't think it is wise to pretend we know he is the answer. If we don't know he is the answer then we should be looking for a definite answer at QB, until he proves it. It is not smart, imo, for an NFL team to spend years waiting for a guy to come around. Each season is incredibly valuable and to squander seasons on a third year guy who hasn't proved it is foolish. And each year that goes by, the lower are his chances of becoming a franchise QB.
You're being disingenuous when you say that Jones might become a star and you hope he does. You think nothing of the sort, which is why you want the Giants to move on from him ASAP. I don't pretend to know if he's the real deal or not, but I'm willing to be patient with him and give him another year (with a much better supporting cast) to show me. Your mind is already made up.
As for situations and adversity, they're not excuses, they're reality. Jones has had abysmal protection, sub par receivers, and last year an anemic running game. Cosell touched on all three. To expect Jones to thrive when faced with all that is unrealistic, as he said.
As for spending "years waiting for a guy to come around," Jones is in year three...two in this offense. Do the Iron Laws give a fixed number of years to determine if a QB is the goods, or are they subject to change? It really doesn't matter. Cosell counseled patience, so I'm going to be patient. Clearly, so are the Giants.
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In comment 15208326 Klaatu said:
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You're ignoring the situations they were put in when they were drafted, and the adversity (or lack thereof) they've had to deal with since then, which was precisely Cosell's point when he was asked about Jones, and why I said his evaluation was fair, and essentially that "the jury was still out." You don't want to hear that because you don't like Jones and feel the Giants should move on from him. Well, that's just not going to happen, not this year anyway, no matter what the Iron Laws say.
Situation and adversity sounds like a catch-all excuse. Not sure how to measure it or factor it in. We have seen a body of work from Jones and none of it has been elite. Regarding those excuses the stats say his protection was near league bottom, but not the worst. That's not to say he can't become a star. He might, and I hope he does. But I don't think it is wise to pretend we know he is the answer. If we don't know he is the answer then we should be looking for a definite answer at QB, until he proves it. It is not smart, imo, for an NFL team to spend years waiting for a guy to come around. Each season is incredibly valuable and to squander seasons on a third year guy who hasn't proved it is foolish. And each year that goes by, the lower are his chances of becoming a franchise QB.
You're being disingenuous when you say that Jones might become a star and you hope he does. You think nothing of the sort, which is why you want the Giants to move on from him ASAP. I don't pretend to know if he's the real deal or not, but I'm willing to be patient with him and give him another year (with a much better supporting cast) to show me. Your mind is already made up.
As for situations and adversity, they're not excuses, they're reality. Jones has had abysmal protection, sub par receivers, and last year an anemic running game. Cosell touched on all three. To expect Jones to thrive when faced with all that is unrealistic, as he said.
As for spending "years waiting for a guy to come around," Jones is in year three...two in this offense. Do the Iron Laws give a fixed number of years to determine if a QB is the goods, or are they subject to change? It really doesn't matter. Cosell counseled patience, so I'm going to be patient. Clearly, so are the Giants.
a) I am not being disingenuous. My opinion is how I have stated it. And unless you have the power to read minds you will have to accept my statements on this. I have consistently made an assessment on DJ based on probabilities. Perhaps you do not understand my point.
b) Cosell does not think you have to view QBs with all the tools/weapons. I know this because I am a big Cosell fan and listen to almost all his podcast appearances. He has stated many times you can judge a QB outside of his context. I can direct you to his thoughts on this if you would like. Unlike you, and many on here, Cosell does not share the view that you must give QBs weapons to make an assessment of his traits and abilities.
c) We don't really know what Judge or Cosell for that matter think of Jones. Judge is saying nice things because he has to. Cosell wasn't asked to address Jones' skill set. I think there is reason to believe Cosell does not view Jones as special. His comments in this appearance seems to indicate that he views Jones as a game manager.
But in your previous post you wrote:
How can he prove it (one way or the other) unless he plays?
Yet it seems to contradict what you wrote after that:
On one hand, you're saying that Jones has to "prove it." On the other, you're saying it would be foolish for the Giants to give him another chance to "prove it," that they should know already. So, which is it?
Also, as I've written previously in other threads recommending that the Giants not move on from Jones right away, they have the opportunity to build a much stronger team on both sides of the ball this year and next. If they decide to move on from Jones, his replacement will inherit a much better team than Jones did.
But in your previous post you wrote:
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. If we don't know he is the answer then we should be looking for a definite answer at QB, until he proves it.
How can he prove it (one way or the other) unless he plays?
Yet it seems to contradict what you wrote after that:
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It is not smart, imo, for an NFL team to spend years waiting for a guy to come around. Each season is incredibly valuable and to squander seasons on a third year guy who hasn't proved it is foolish. And each year that goes by, the lower are his chances of becoming a franchise QB.
On one hand, you're saying that Jones has to "prove it." On the other, you're saying it would be foolish for the Giants to give him another chance to "prove it," that they should know already. So, which is it?
Also, as I've written previously in other threads recommending that the Giants not move on from Jones right away, they have the opportunity to build a much stronger team on both sides of the ball this year and next. If they decide to move on from Jones, his replacement will inherit a much better team than Jones did.
My opinion is that we have him, he's under contract, but the team should look at other prospects in case they fall to us, like Lance. If there is a guy who flashes better traits than Jones who is available I would take him. Jones would be the week one starter no matter what anyway. I am not afraid of competing QBs. Two good prospects battling it out increases the odds we find an elite QB. To me, finding an elite QB is the name of the game in the NFL. Get that and everything else is a lot easier.
Jones is being given an opportunity he hasn't earned through his play on the field; I think this points to a mediocre record in 2021. I think it's a mistaken approach.
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at best.. but mention that and some people lose their minds.
Personally, I can't remember one time where someone on BBI lost their mind over anyone simply being lukewarm about D. Jones.
Jones is being given an opportunity he hasn't earned through his play on the field; I think this points to a mediocre record in 2021. I think it's a mistaken approach.
Who would have you brought in based on the current marketplace ?
When you answer be sure to factor in cap hit (in a flat cap year) - the opportunity cost of what that player would have cost versus what would have been sacrificed given our free agent signings and oh yeah - the player wanting to come here to “compete” versus the other opportunities afforded to the player on a one year deal and the potential that player would will be afforded in 2020 as free agent
Please say something dumb like Jacoby Brissett.
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But that's what the Giants are doing: giving him a chance. They didn't bring in a backup that could upset the apple cart, and they're unlikely to bring in anyone to truly compete for the starting job between now and August.
Jones is being given an opportunity he hasn't earned through his play on the field; I think this points to a mediocre record in 2021. I think it's a mistaken approach.
Who would have you brought in based on the current marketplace ?
When you answer be sure to factor in cap hit (in a flat cap year) - the opportunity cost of what that player would have cost versus what would have been sacrificed given our free agent signings and oh yeah - the player wanting to come here to “compete” versus the other opportunities afforded to the player on a one year deal and the potential that player would will be afforded in 2020 as free agent
Please say something dumb like Jacoby Brissett.
2022**** as a free agent
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But that's what the Giants are doing: giving him a chance. They didn't bring in a backup that could upset the apple cart, and they're unlikely to bring in anyone to truly compete for the starting job between now and August.
Jones is being given an opportunity he hasn't earned through his play on the field; I think this points to a mediocre record in 2021. I think it's a mistaken approach.
Who would have you brought in based on the current marketplace ?
When you answer be sure to factor in cap hit (in a flat cap year) - the opportunity cost of what that player would have cost versus what would have been sacrificed given our free agent signings and oh yeah - the player wanting to come here to “compete” versus the other opportunities afforded to the player on a one year deal and the potential that player would will be afforded in 2020 as free agent
Please say something dumb like Jacoby Brissett.
The Giants should’ve at least brought in a backup with talent given the fact that Jones is injury prone and misses games every year.
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In comment 15208458 Go Terps said:
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But that's what the Giants are doing: giving him a chance. They didn't bring in a backup that could upset the apple cart, and they're unlikely to bring in anyone to truly compete for the starting job between now and August.
Jones is being given an opportunity he hasn't earned through his play on the field; I think this points to a mediocre record in 2021. I think it's a mistaken approach.
Who would have you brought in based on the current marketplace ?
When you answer be sure to factor in cap hit (in a flat cap year) - the opportunity cost of what that player would have cost versus what would have been sacrificed given our free agent signings and oh yeah - the player wanting to come here to “compete” versus the other opportunities afforded to the player on a one year deal and the potential that player would will be afforded in 2020 as free agent
Please say something dumb like Jacoby Brissett.
The Giants should’ve at least brought in a backup with talent given the fact that Jones is injury prone and misses games every year.
Who ?
The Giants should’ve at least brought in a backup with talent given the fact that Jones is injury prone and misses games every year.
Who do you suggest they should have added instead of Glennon?
I think this was the weakness of teams which have had QB controversies.
They tried it with 2 and got nowhere.
We should do it with 4
Something is bound to happen if we do
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The Giants should’ve at least brought in a backup with talent given the fact that Jones is injury prone and misses games every year.
Who do you suggest they should have added instead of Glennon?
Trubisky.
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In comment 15208494 WillVAB said:
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The Giants should’ve at least brought in a backup with talent given the fact that Jones is injury prone and misses games every year.
Who do you suggest they should have added instead of Glennon?
Trubisky.
Trubisky is garbage. :)
Give it a fucking rest already
I do agree that Trubisky isn't particularly good, of that makes you feel better.
I do agree that Trubisky isn't particularly good, of that makes you feel better.
Last conversation ever with you on Jones, until after the coming season:
Trubisky has played 5 seasons, Jones 2...He’s played twice as many games as Jones..I’m done.
Jones is being given an opportunity he hasn't earned through his play on the field; I think this points to a mediocre record in 2021. I think it's a mistaken approach.
Jones has been given nothing for 2 years..two of the worst offensive lines in football, handful of games with a banged up Barkley but majority of games without...2 straight years of having his number 1 receiver a rookie/2nd year 5th rounder who’d fight for a number 3WR role on competent football teams. Giants have been setting Jones up for failure from the outset...what have the Giants ever given Jones his first two years other than an opportunity to captain one of the most inept collection of offensive players in the NFL? I can only imagine trotting 2005 Eli out with the unit Jones played with last year, instead of plax, toomer, shockey, tiki and oline with a pulse..but Eli earned the right to play along with the likes of those players based on earning that right with his stellar 2004 campaign smh.
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In comment 15208494 WillVAB said:
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The Giants should’ve at least brought in a backup with talent given the fact that Jones is injury prone and misses games every year.
Who do you suggest they should have added instead of Glennon?
Trubisky.
I wanted Trubisky also but I expected him to make a lot more. IIRC he took less money to go to Buffalo so it doesn't matter.
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In comment 15208559 Jay on the Island said:
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In comment 15208494 WillVAB said:
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The Giants should’ve at least brought in a backup with talent given the fact that Jones is injury prone and misses games every year.
Who do you suggest they should have added instead of Glennon?
Trubisky.
Trubisky is garbage. :)
Trubisky gives you a chance to win some games when Jones inevitably misses 4+ games for something. Glennon is pure shit.
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In comment 15208564 WillVAB said:
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In comment 15208559 Jay on the Island said:
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In comment 15208494 WillVAB said:
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The Giants should’ve at least brought in a backup with talent given the fact that Jones is injury prone and misses games every year.
Who do you suggest they should have added instead of Glennon?
Trubisky.
Trubisky is garbage. :)
Trubisky gives you a chance to win some games when Jones inevitably misses 4+ games for something. Glennon is pure shit.
What I don’t understand, is why Trubisky would sign with Buffalo? If you’re trying to revitalize a career, is Buffalo the place to do that?
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In comment 15208566 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 15208564 WillVAB said:
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In comment 15208559 Jay on the Island said:
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In comment 15208494 WillVAB said:
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The Giants should’ve at least brought in a backup with talent given the fact that Jones is injury prone and misses games every year.
Who do you suggest they should have added instead of Glennon?
Trubisky.
Trubisky is garbage. :)
Trubisky gives you a chance to win some games when Jones inevitably misses 4+ games for something. Glennon is pure shit.
What I don’t understand, is why Trubisky would sign with Buffalo? If you’re trying to revitalize a career, is Buffalo the place to do that?
No idea. Maybe that was the only offer? The first offer? Maybe he wants a year to learn with no pressure?
Couldn’t agree more. I am less enthusiastic about that signing after hearing him. Seems like they paid a lot of money for someone they HOPE can get back to playing at a high level. I really hope that he works out for us.
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But that's what the Giants are doing: giving him a chance. They didn't bring in a backup that could upset the apple cart, and they're unlikely to bring in anyone to truly compete for the starting job between now and August.
Jones is being given an opportunity he hasn't earned through his play on the field; I think this points to a mediocre record in 2021. I think it's a mistaken approach.
Jones has been given nothing for 2 years..two of the worst offensive lines in football, handful of games with a banged up Barkley but majority of games without...2 straight years of having his number 1 receiver a rookie/2nd year 5th rounder who’d fight for a number 3WR role on competent football teams. Giants have been setting Jones up for failure from the outset...what have the Giants ever given Jones his first two years other than an opportunity to captain one of the most inept collection of offensive players in the NFL? I can only imagine trotting 2005 Eli out with the unit Jones played with last year, instead of plax, toomer, shockey, tiki and oline with a pulse..but Eli earned the right to play along with the likes of those players based on earning that right with his stellar 2004 campaign smh.
So you agree Gettleman should have been fired for building one of the worst offensive teams in the NFL?
It is what it is.
If Daniel has a decent year.
They both likely stay.
Probably gonna happen.
You know it.
It is why some of you are pantsing yourselves in numerous threads
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
To be fair, the Cardinals front office felt really good about Rosen as well, enough to make him the 10th overall pick.
Everyone misses, everyone. We're all making our best guesses here.
It is what it is.
If Daniel has a decent year.
They both likely stay.
Probably gonna happen.
You know it.
It is why some of you are pantsing yourselves in numerous threads
Damn right. We all know it’ll happen, and I hope it does
Full blown troll status at this point.
what a fucking moron.
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He's the same one that had said Josh Rosen was the best QB in his class and wasn't very impressed with Josh Allen. SO we're supposed to trust him about which non-QB to draft.
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
If you're referring to the interview Cosell did with a Cleveland radio guy just prior to that "QB Draft" then that's not how I remember it.
While he did mention Rosen as his top choice (which he prefaced by saying, "if I had to choose...") he was not down on Allen. He said that teams will like different QBs depending upon their systems...and that Allen was more of an improvisor when a play breaks down
In any event, I certainly hope you're not suggesting that we should automatically dismiss Cosell's opinion just because he got one wrong a few years ago.
ALL pro talent evaluators get SOME picks wrong. It's the nature of that occupation. Or as George Young used to say (paraphrasing) "Drafting players is just like getting Christmas presents. You never know what you're going to get until you open the box."
All I said is he is not the end all be all.
And he wasn't impressed with Allen. HE spoke of how he liked accurate QB's and Allen was not. HE added just because he is more of a fan of accuracy others look for other things. SO he didn't say the guy stunk or avoid him etc. He makes it clear it depends on what the team is looking for.
He did have Josh Rosen number 1 though. And he was not high on Allen based on his preference. He didn't say Allen was going to stink.
That's all I'm saying. - he is not The Gospel.
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then Jones is radioactive waste.
Full blown troll status at this point.
what a fucking moron.
I'd call calling Trubisky (29-21 record as a starter) garbage while suggesting we should believe in Jones (8-18 as a starter) trolling.
You want a sad truth? The sad truth is that if Jones were on the Eagles you'd be right there saying he sucks. And so would everyone else on this board.
And they'd be right.
Zack Rosenblatt of nj.com had a phenomenal article on Jackson,that traced his roots,his character,his athleticism,his dedication. Unfortunately,it's behind a paywall,so unless you get nj.com,you can't read it. After reading it,I'm all in on Jackson,as he seems to be the high character,extremely talented player that Judge wants on the Giants!
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In comment 15208576 Go Terps said:
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then Jones is radioactive waste.
Full blown troll status at this point.
what a fucking moron.
I'd call calling Trubisky (29-21 record as a starter) garbage while suggesting we should believe in Jones (8-18 as a starter) trolling.
You want a sad truth? The sad truth is that if Jones were on the Eagles you'd be right there saying he sucks. And so would everyone else on this board.
And they'd be right.
Yea it has nothing to do with the talent level. Remember the talk about Eli when the Chargers went 14-2 under Marty Schottenheimer? The Bears were considered a contender during Trubisky’s first few seasons. Did anyone say anything about the Giants talent level the past two years? Any playoff predictions?
Why wasn’t this pursued? His new Raiders contract was $3.5mm so it’s very affordable.
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In comment 15208576 Go Terps said:
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then Jones is radioactive waste.
Full blown troll status at this point.
what a fucking moron.
I'd call calling Trubisky (29-21 record as a starter) garbage while suggesting we should believe in Jones (8-18 as a starter) trolling.
You want a sad truth? The sad truth is that if Jones were on the Eagles you'd be right there saying he sucks. And so would everyone else on this board.
And they'd be right.
Was Trubisky your answer ? Still waiting on that. Considering someone did the work for you.
(I already know the answer)
For a guy that preaches organizational process and doing things the right way. - you’re hilarious.
Btw I can’t fuckkng stand Gettleman
This
QB evaluation is exceptionally difficult and then a big part of it is the the coaching staff and team they play for.
Let's hope Jones plays better with a better team around him. If he plays pretty good they will give him more time. It is not like a QB will magically appear next year. Obviously, if he is just ok and has games that cost the Giants games (turnovers) then they will have to get aggressive finding a replacement. Some franchises have looked decades to find a game altering QB.
Posters do that to other posters here almost everyday. They do the "call out" routine by digging up old posts where someone has opinion about a prospect that didn't work out. As if being wrong about a prospect automatically disqualifies you from ever again taking a position on any other prospect.
I'm hoping the CDC can eventually find a vaccine for Dumb; and many BBIers can have access to it. It would certainly help BBI discourse going forward...
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In comment 15208576 Go Terps said:
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then Jones is radioactive waste.
Full blown troll status at this point.
what a fucking moron.
I'd call calling Trubisky (29-21 record as a starter) garbage while suggesting we should believe in Jones (8-18 as a starter) trolling.
You want a sad truth? The sad truth is that if Jones were on the Eagles you'd be right there saying he sucks. And so would everyone else on this board.
And they'd be right.
If Jones was on the Eagles, he wouldn't have been 8-18 and the Eagles would have won the division handly..he would have had receivers that can catch, a TE that doesn't tip balls to the defense, and an offensive line.
what caught my ears, which are often wrong:
I think he said that QB stats can be very misleading as a measure of the player, i.e., context (players and scheme around him) matters
Devonte: a bit stiff in the hips and built straight up and down even as he is quite elusive, sees him as an outlier and did not bother to mention him in his top receivers, until Schmelk brought Smith up; interesting
Lawrence: he said he gets 'scattershot' when pressure comes up the middle; long. He stopped short of saying he wouldn't be his #1 QB, but I caught possible implication that Wilson might be his. Very high on Trask as pure passer and a guy who can play under center and do well w/play actionL praised his ability to go play action/back to the d and whips his head around and see the field well. Not high on Mac Jones. Likes Fields.
The Anderson comment was music to our ears.
Said there was only one ER who would fall w/i his top 11: Phillips has baggage.
Slater: Giants have to go with Thomas and Peart ("you can't draft a guy in the 3rd and not play him"), so if an OT is 'only'9th on your overall board, the Giants can't take him at 11.
I'm sure I'm the only one here who finds Schmelk to sound like a breathless teenager trotting out his questions, but the content was good and seems as though he's got a bit of a relationship with Cosell, so all good.
Klaatu: thank you for undressing pretensions of Producer (who must have attended Terps' 'school of hate for DJ') and BSIMatt and Bill2 nominations for posts of the year.
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Why would he be otherwise? It's not like Jones lit it up last year. Still, I took his evaluation more like "the jury is still out," which is fair.
This is how I heard it as well. Seemed reasonable. I wanted a little more Jones discussion (maybe he's done it elsewhere).
Posters do that to other posters here almost everyday. They do the "call out" routine by digging up old posts where someone has opinion about a prospect that didn't work out. As if being wrong about a prospect automatically disqualifies you from ever again taking a position on any other prospect.
I'm hoping the CDC can eventually find a vaccine for Dumb; and many BBIers can have access to it. It would certainly help BBI discourse going forward...
Great. I guess next time when one of us criticizes Dave Gettleman and it gets thrown back in our face that we aren't a scout and DG is - you'd agree with them too that we can't go back in a prior time and criticize DG in any manner.
My post about Cosell was very mild. We can get reminded on here that SY is not perfect (I've agreed with SY and sent posts saying so only to get thrown back in my face that SY is not perfect) and not much is said about that.
But I say similar to Cosell vs we criticize DG or someone nitpicking SY and it's "How dare I?"
I don't hate Jones. I just hate watching the Giants lose, and Jones does a lot of things that contribute to the Giants losing.
I don't hate Jones. I just hate watching the Giants lose, and Jones does a lot of things that contribute to the Giants losing.
I'm perplexed at the animosity towards having a better backup. Jones should easily beat those guys out. That's not 'real' competition unless Jones badly struggles during multiple regular season games.
I'm as sensitive as anyone to Jones criticism but I'm completely shocked how negatively what he said about Jones was taken. He basically said RIGHT NOW entering his third season Jones is a system QB and we'll have to see if he becomes more. How many QBs in the history of the NFL were more than system QBs coming into the third season? He didn't say that's all he'll ever be either. This is such a non-story.
I don't hate Jones. I just hate watching the Giants lose, and Jones does a lot of things that contribute to the Giants losing.
Judge said, "Don't tell me what a player can't do."
That was nice hear. I have "heard" a lot good shit from coaches. I give no fucks for what they say anymore.
You know what Jones has been doing consistently since a Freshman at Duke?
Make tight window throws because his players at Duke didn't get open.
The one thing Jones has done since coming to the Giants?
Make accurate tight window throws down the field. Some QBs won't make those throws. Jones has a history of throwing them.
What is Golloday great at?
I will wait.
What is Rudolph good at?
They aren't done.
The decisions just got a lot easier for Jones. Add one of the elite skill position players routinely projected to the Giants and it is going to much better than average.
Chill out Terps.
Judge sees what Jones can do well and can exploit it.
The have delivered perfect schematic fits.
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
christian : 12:27 pm : link : reply
It's always about roster architecture. The Giants have a win now defense, with a bunch of 2nd contract, prime players on 2-3 year deals.
The offense is currently counting on:
- Jones bouncing back from an 11 TD, 14 start season
- Barkley bouncing back from a torn ACL
- Golladay bouncing back from a mysterious 9 week hip strain
- An UDFA, 5th round, 3rd round, and veteran bust contributing to the offensive line
If much of that turns out in the Giants favor, and they are competing for a championship over the next few years, I'll be happy to give Rabbit Foot Dave his credit.
The NFL gives you an average of 6-7 draft slots. Per year
If you got 5 players by year two then you are beating the odds.
You need 53 players plus enough player access above that to field against and annual injury rate of 25%. So about 66 per year.
You have an average career in a violent sport of 4 years.
These are realities.
When I hear critiques of any one year of "roster architecture" I'm at the third day of a drink allowed conference on "Building 50 Story Skyscrapers in Venice".
Which should posters attend:
Workshop A: Using more steel so you can go higher than 50 in the years ahead?
Workshop B: Using more wood so that when your creation falls you have less of a clean up bill?
Workshop C: Going deeper into the mud with more concrete in the foundation?
Is this the conference or the construct for any promising architect who wants to get better at understanding their chosen game?
There is clearly no appetite for that from ownership or the GM.
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He's the same one that had said Josh Rosen was the best QB in his class and wasn't very impressed with Josh Allen. SO we're supposed to trust him about which non-QB to draft.
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
Actually, let me bring up another question. If we are loaded up for a division run, why exactly are we barren at the backup QB position? Even if Jones plays well, there is a high likelihood that he will miss time. So investing in Mariota would be significant even he is just a backup. And meanwhile we let the guy who was QB during the team’s biggest win in half a decade sign with Arizona. Why exactly did we do that?
Given the insider comments about the Adoree and Golladay overpays, I am still waiting to see whether the Giants FO has turned the corner. It’s very much in doubt. Looking at the QB planning, there is more action yet to come or the Giants are continuing to be sloppy and ill prepared.
The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
When you hear the phrase “ it seems like every year is a rebuilding year” then you know you have the wrong architects...
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The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
.. and in fact Cosell never said Rosen would be a good pro. He just pointed out what was good about him. And he was correct. Rosen throws a good ball with timing and anticipation. He did show that in the NFL. But Cosell doesn't predict who will be great and who will not. He tells you what traits and attributes he sees on tape.
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Judge said, "Don't tell me what a player can't do."
Jimmy Johnson had a great quote.
"I don't judge a QB by the plays that he makes but by the plays he doesn't make."
What we don't want is for Jones "to tell Judge" that he is very good at making plays that are turnovers.
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The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
Well now you know. No problem.
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In comment 15209159 giantstock said:
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The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
.. and in fact Cosell never said Rosen would be a good pro. He just pointed out what was good about him. And he was correct. Rosen throws a good ball with timing and anticipation. He did show that in the NFL. But Cosell doesn't predict who will be great and who will not. He tells you what traits and attributes he sees on tape.
In fact Cosell rated the QB's. Rosen was his number 1. He specifically said he prefers accurate pocket QB's. He specifically has said others prefer rollout QB's etc. But he prefers pocket QB's. And Rosen was his number 1.
Chris Carter thought Rosen was highly overrated.
You're making it sound like all Cosell talks about is "throwing a good ball."
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In comment 15209175 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15209159 giantstock said:
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The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
.. and in fact Cosell never said Rosen would be a good pro. He just pointed out what was good about him. And he was correct. Rosen throws a good ball with timing and anticipation. He did show that in the NFL. But Cosell doesn't predict who will be great and who will not. He tells you what traits and attributes he sees on tape.
In fact Cosell rated the QB's. Rosen was his number 1. He specifically said he prefers accurate pocket QB's. He specifically has said others prefer rollout QB's etc. But he prefers pocket QB's. And Rosen was his number 1.
Chris Carter thought Rosen was highly overrated.
You're making it sound like all Cosell talks about is "throwing a good ball."
Cosell has never said he prefers pocket QBs. You are misrepresenting his comments. He HAS said that he thinks a QB needs to win from the pocket. So, for him, a QB needs that skill to be successful. But not at the exclusion of designed roll outs and second reaction plays.
It's just that Cosell is so much more than what you are are suggesting Producer. He talks about presence in the pocket etc.
You are making him sound like a H/S analyst.
It's just that Cosell is so much more than what you are are suggesting Producer. He talks about presence in the pocket etc.
You are making him sound like a H/S analyst.
read my comment just above. Cosell does not say he prefers a pocket QB/ Though he says to be successful long term in the NFL a QB must learn to make plays from the pocket.
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In comment 15209192 Producer said:
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In comment 15209175 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15209159 giantstock said:
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The part about not trusting Cosell because of his Rosen evaluation seems harsh.
Which evaluator's judgment do you trust these days?
Okay we agree - we can't trust any scout 100%. I get the feeling that he has been someone above reproach.
No expert/scout should be, right? If I didn't give an example or 2, then what?
I have no problem with challenging any evaluator. So much of this is more art than science.
But you framed it as if anything Cosell says going forward should have no merit because of his Rosen view. And that doesn't make sense to me because Cosell is a very thoughtful football guy who tries to leave no stone unturned. So if he got it wrong on Rosen, it's not like his evaluation was unreasonable at the time. At least that's how I viewed it...
.. and in fact Cosell never said Rosen would be a good pro. He just pointed out what was good about him. And he was correct. Rosen throws a good ball with timing and anticipation. He did show that in the NFL. But Cosell doesn't predict who will be great and who will not. He tells you what traits and attributes he sees on tape.
In fact Cosell rated the QB's. Rosen was his number 1. He specifically said he prefers accurate pocket QB's. He specifically has said others prefer rollout QB's etc. But he prefers pocket QB's. And Rosen was his number 1.
Chris Carter thought Rosen was highly overrated.
You're making it sound like all Cosell talks about is "throwing a good ball."
Cosell has never said he prefers pocket QBs. You are misrepresenting his comments. He HAS said that he thinks a QB needs to win from the pocket. So, for him, a QB needs that skill to be successful. But not at the exclusion of designed roll outs and second reaction plays.
He absolutely did say he prefers pocket QB's that are highly accurate. He said he is old school in that way.
And there is NOT one bit wrong saying that.
He values accuracy highly among other things. Nothing wrong with that.
Anyway, one thing we know, after three seasons you pretty much know what you have at the QB1. It’s time for Jones to win some games. And if he’s a game manager as the sixth pick in the draft that’s a miss and a disappointment. Jones wasn’t drafted to be a game manager any more than Barks was drafted to be a two down back.
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In comment 15209192 Producer said:
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I went back again with that Cleveland interview. He said he prefers structure. And isn't "structure" a pocket-passer.? If it isn't I apologize.
And it's not just about getting it right or wrong. There are many reasons that players do not live up to expectations beyond talent. Cosell is great because of the way he succinctly frames his evaluations and intelligently reaches conclusions, most of which he carefully discounts with appropriate caveats. I see him more like an NFL personnel scientist who works exhaustively developing carefully considered hypotheses. I never recall him bombastically declaring a point of view about any player ala Kiper.
I’m really hoping to see a knowledgeable account of the entire debacle in the next couple of years, complete with unvarnished quotes from NFL GMs et al.
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In comment 15209198 giantstock said:
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In comment 15209192 Producer said:
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I went back again with that Cleveland interview. He said he prefers structure. And isn't "structure" a pocket-passer.? If it isn't I apologize.
Well I have heard him extensively over the years. It is possible he has evolved on the secondary play stuff, as we have all had to. Recently I have heard him say that he thinks running QBs, like Lamar, have to be able to make plays from the pocket in order to have sustained success. I think that is his latest view. So in a way he is saying pocket play is still so important. And I would add, I don;t know if it is a matter of *preference* or if it is a conclusion of what he has seen based on tape watching. The thing about Cosell is, you know if some QB comes out and wins without making plays from the pocket, he will change his opinion. He will tell you what the tape says about that. But so far, no QB has really ever won a Super Bowl without the pocket component of the game.
I’m really hoping to see a knowledgeable account of the entire debacle in the next couple of years, complete with unvarnished quotes from NFL GMs et al.
After the '18 season, and I need to find the thread, but Sy was saying that Rosen made some of the best throws he saw that year with Arizona. But he really couldn't thrive because the overall personnel was so poor.
And this matched up with what I saw because I was very interested in seeing how Rosen was doing. He made some brilliant throws. But I thought he would be a bit more athletic than what he showed.
If you recall, the narrative quickly turned to Rosen's personality after Arizona ditched him for Murray. But there wasn't really anything to support that...
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In comment 15209202 Producer said:
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In comment 15209198 giantstock said:
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In comment 15209192 Producer said:
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I went back again with that Cleveland interview. He said he prefers structure. And isn't "structure" a pocket-passer.? If it isn't I apologize.
Well I have heard him extensively over the years. It is possible he has evolved on the secondary play stuff, as we have all had to. Recently I have heard him say that he thinks running QBs, like Lamar, have to be able to make plays from the pocket in order to have sustained success. I think that is his latest view. So in a way he is saying pocket play is still so important. And I would add, I don;t know if it is a matter of *preference* or if it is a conclusion of what he has seen based on tape watching. The thing about Cosell is, you know if some QB comes out and wins without making plays from the pocket, he will change his opinion. He will tell you what the tape says about that. But so far, no QB has really ever won a Super Bowl without the pocket component of the game.
Lamar Jackson is going to put the Ravens in an awkward position when his rookie contract expires if he doesn’t progress in the pocket. When push comes to shove, against playoff caliber defenses you don’t have the chance to improvise. It is not just Lamar Jackson. Josh Allen has looked weaker in the playoffs than he has in the regular season. To win you need to be able to make quick reads and I am not sure Jackson has that if his outs running the ball aren’t there.
Jones is being given an opportunity he hasn't earned through his play on the field; I think this points to a mediocre record in 2021. I think it's a mistaken approach.
You always gloss over or ignore that there's shit going on behind the scenes that we can't relate to. Coaches are evaluating players on how they progress from game to game. On how they practice. On how they work on and off the field.
You act like you know everything. No one knows what Jones will do this coming year, including you, but Judge has formed an educated opinion and take based on his first hand knowledge of who and what Jones is.
No one knows as much as Judge knows. QBs have gone from bad to good in year 3 so many times over the last 50 years. But you're certain. Sure.
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Sy gave him a very high numerical grade. And the guy is on his third team without ever playing a lot. He has to be among the most disappointing players to be drafted in the last decade.
I’m really hoping to see a knowledgeable account of the entire debacle in the next couple of years, complete with unvarnished quotes from NFL GMs et al.
After the '18 season, and I need to find the thread, but Sy was saying that Rosen made some of the best throws he saw that year with Arizona. But he really couldn't thrive because the overall personnel was so poor.
And this matched up with what I saw because I was very interested in seeing how Rosen was doing. He made some brilliant throws. But I thought he would be a bit more athletic than what he showed.
If you recall, the narrative quickly turned to Rosen's personality after Arizona ditched him for Murray. But there wasn't really anything to support that...
Kind of weird you would excuse a QB because of the poor personnel around him.
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christian : 12:27 pm : link : reply
It's always about roster architecture. The Giants have a win now defense, with a bunch of 2nd contract, prime players on 2-3 year deals.
The offense is currently counting on:
- Jones bouncing back from an 11 TD, 14 start season
- Barkley bouncing back from a torn ACL
- Golladay bouncing back from a mysterious 9 week hip strain
- An UDFA, 5th round, 3rd round, and veteran bust contributing to the offensive line
If much of that turns out in the Giants favor, and they are competing for a championship over the next few years, I'll be happy to give Rabbit Foot Dave his credit.
2005:
Vet defense in "win now mode" with guys like Strahan, Pierce, Robbins, Madison and a few younger up n comers like Osi, Webster (who still sucked) and Wilson.
Offense was depending on a young QB named Eli Manning who stunk up the joint in 2004, save for 2-3 bright moments. A left tackle no one liked in Luke. Young Snee. Young Diehl. Vet FA Plax who was coming in here with more warts than Galloday. Everyone hates Engram but he's a productive receiving TE.
I don't even care to go on. It's just fascinating how some of you spin shit to fit into the agenda.
Tampa was going nowhere. NOWHERE. They were bad for YEARS. Saw a window, signed Brady and killed everyone. How's that for a "model?"
Belickick was smarter than everyone for decades because, according to BBI, he never spent FA money. Until now. Is he dumb? Or was that widely held belief pretty much bullshit?
If one of those guys is supposedly going to push Jones for playing time or be better, then why isn't the logic that Jones could get better as well??
I'm just happy we aren't bombarded with how great nick Mullens is anymore.
Yeah, lets bring in the most average QB ever and "push" Jones. BEcause we all know that's the sure fire way to win and sustain winning in the NFL.
No one is winning fuck all with Brisett as the long term answer. The Colts couldn't wait to bring in the corpse of Phillip Rivers and bench this guy.
If Jones sucks, we will go all in on another QB. ONe that has more upside than BRisett or MAriotta.
If one of those guys is supposedly going to push Jones for playing time or be better, then why isn't the logic that Jones could get better as well??
I'm just happy we aren't bombarded with how great nick Mullens is anymore.
I don't even want to sound like I think it's a terrible idea. It's ok guess. If the Giants brought in MArriotta I wouldn't bitch about it. I kind of like his under the radar potential, perhaps, or even Brisett. They are steady. They aren't terrible. That's fine. But it's not the secret sauce to winning. Not even close.
Every fucking move is twisted into this doom and gloom shit. It's old.
Now we have to read about roster architecture. The fuck out of here. Tampa literally laughed in the face of this crap and won a title based on going all in on a roster of misfits and cast offs. JPP was a bum here? He wins a title there. Antonio BRown is a team cancer? Title winning player there. Fournette? Check.
It comes down to player evaluations and player development. At some point, you have to trust the process at times and go all in on a young player that isn't a sure fire known commodity. You have to trust what your eyes, ears and gut tell you. You have to go on faith, sometimes it's partially blind faith. The smartest and most astute and pragmatic football EXECS have lived and died with this philosophy.
The Giants have lived and died on this philosophy. It's not always football scholarship or country club confines. It's giving young players a chance. If you cut bait every 2 years on a high profile player you aint winning shit. We aren't the BRowns. We aren't the Jets. The Giants are going to exercice loyalty and patience. SOmetimes it works (84-90) and 04-2012) and sometimes it doesn't (94-96) (14-18)
Jones wouldn't be the QB in 2021 if he didn't earn the trust and belief from this staff. Like it or not he's going to get every chance to cement his place as a good starting NFL QB. It's year 3, second with this staff, not year 5.
After the '18 season, and I need to find the thread, but Sy was saying that Rosen made some of the best throws he saw that year with Arizona. But he really couldn't thrive because the overall personnel was so poor.
And this matched up with what I saw because I was very interested in seeing how Rosen was doing. He made some brilliant throws. But I thought he would be a bit more athletic than what he showed.
If you recall, the narrative quickly turned to Rosen's personality after Arizona ditched him for Murray. But there wasn't really anything to support that...
Kind of weird you would excuse a QB because of the poor personnel around him.
Why? Rosen was a rookie playing for a horrible team.
Operative word rookie.
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MM’s stats are much better than Jones’ and there are many reasons to think he is simply a better prospect.
There is clearly no appetite for that from ownership or the GM.
Brilliant.
Can't believe I did not think of that.
A QB entering his 3rd year that was drafted at 6 has been given an opportunity to prove he is the guy and has not be forced to enter a QB competition.
This is not crazy. This is normal.
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After the '18 season, and I need to find the thread, but Sy was saying that Rosen made some of the best throws he saw that year with Arizona. But he really couldn't thrive because the overall personnel was so poor.
And this matched up with what I saw because I was very interested in seeing how Rosen was doing. He made some brilliant throws. But I thought he would be a bit more athletic than what he showed.
If you recall, the narrative quickly turned to Rosen's personality after Arizona ditched him for Murray. But there wasn't really anything to support that...
Kind of weird you would excuse a QB because of the poor personnel around him.
Why? Rosen was a rookie playing for a horrible team.
Operative word rookie.
Your bile is only surpassed by your inconsistency.
After the '18 season, and I need to find the thread, but Sy was saying that Rosen made some of the best throws he saw that year with Arizona. But he really couldn't thrive because the overall personnel was so poor.
And this matched up with what I saw because I was very interested in seeing how Rosen was doing. He made some brilliant throws. But I thought he would be a bit more athletic than what he showed.
If you recall, the narrative quickly turned to Rosen's personality after Arizona ditched him for Murray. But there wasn't really anything to support that...
Kind of weird you would excuse a QB because of the poor personnel around him.
Why? Rosen was a rookie playing for a horrible team.
Operative word rookie.
Your bile is only surpassed by your inconsistency.
Not sure what you are talking about specifically. So if you want to engage in something specific then shoot.
I agree with this.
Where it gets interesting (though unlikely, of course) is... what if several teams share the Giants' concern with the opt-out prospects, and Chase is the receiver who slides to #11?
We don't discuss Chase much because there's such a low likelihood that he'd be available at our pick, but what if he ends up sliding behind Smith/Pitts/Waddle for the teams ahead of us, and he's there but none of the other three are?
I assume the Giants would take Chase in that scenario, but I do wonder whether they are viewing the opt-outs as just a tiebreaker between similarly graded prospects, or if they see opting out as a true downgrade.
Players shouldn't be punished for option out for any variety of personal reasons.
There's a player in the draft who opted out because he lost four (4!) family members as a result of covid. If he falls because someone looked at a paper and saw 'opt out', then shame on everyone involved.
There's a player in the draft who opted out because he lost four (4!) family members as a result of covid. If he falls because someone looked at a paper and saw 'opt out', then shame on everyone involved.
Good point. And since Covid has hit the black community at a much higher rate than it makes sense why someone would want to avoid the risk.
Players shouldn't be punished for option out for any variety of personal reasons.
There's a player in the draft who opted out because he lost four (4!) family members as a result of covid. If he falls because someone looked at a paper and saw 'opt out', then shame on everyone involved.
I agree with that sentiment. I also think the benefit of the doubt should extend to players who opted out in general, and not just because we don't know the specifics. I tend to think that anyone who opted out, knowing that it could be a knock against them that could potentially cost them a lot of money by sliding even a few picks in the draft (if not more), probably did so because their concern for their health and that of their family outweighed their concern for their draft slot.
But that probably doesn't apply to all of the opt-outs, either. There may have been some that felt that they had proven all they needed to and would have entered the draft in 2020 had they been allowed, but used the opt-out as a cover for simply doing what Jadeveon Clowney had strongly considered doing in his final collegiate season because he was widely presumed to be the top pick after 2012 but not eligible until the 2014 draft.
So, which players opted out in spite of the risk to their draft status and which players opted out to avoid risking their draft status? That's the million dollar question, and I do hope the Giants aren't painting all of them with the same broad brush. All we've heard so far though is that they're viewing the opt-outs less favorably than guys who chose to play in 2020. How much of that is a general POV vs. each individual player is not something we've gotten much insight on yet (or if we have, I've missed it).
I just don't see guys taking a year off for the hell of it, or out of general laziness. The top of the draft guys are being advised by agents who have their cut of his future earnings at stake, and who know how NFL teams would react if a potential player only opted out because they didn't want to work.
The midlevel hopefuls wouldn't opt out unless it was serious, because they want in to the league and want every opportunity to post good tape.
There's always outliers where you find out a drafted player has poor work habits, but I think those guys are a really tiny majority of the 300+ guys who get drafted or UDFA every year. Elite level college football has a good way of weeding out people who don't have the desire.
I just don't see guys taking a year off for the hell of it, or out of general laziness. The top of the draft guys are being advised by agents who have their cut of his future earnings at stake, and who know how NFL teams would react if a potential player only opted out because they didn't want to work.
The midlevel hopefuls wouldn't opt out unless it was serious, because they want in to the league and want every opportunity to post good tape.
There's always outliers where you find out a drafted player has poor work habits, but I think those guys are a really tiny majority of the 300+ guys who get drafted or UDFA every year. Elite level college football has a good way of weeding out people who don't have the desire.
I agree with you, generally, on this. But obviously the Giants seem to have some sort of eye on a few players that they must think have opted out for selfish reasons, otherwise why would there be any chatter at all about them having a preference for guys who didn't opt out? Could be as simple as they just view the prospect as a safer choice with more recent tape, but it could also be that they have questions about whether any of the players opted out to avoid putting any regression on tape.
I don't know if that's the case with any player at all, and it's unfair to assume that it even could be. This is purely speculation on my part to link it to some sort of similarity to when Jadeveon Clowney considered sitting out his final season at South Carolina in 2013 because his 2012 season had already put him in the discussion for #1 overall.
And to the extent that the Clowney situation (he did wind up playing in '13, of course, and did take a large step back from '12, but remained a top-10 pick) could have any similarities here, AND that any of this year's top prospects might have had some advice that pointed to Clowney's 2013 season as a cautionary tale, is it a huge stretch to wonder if a player like Sewell who was already basically locked in as OT1 or Chase who was clearly the presumptive WR1 for 2021 after the 2019 season (and could justifiably have been looking at a huge step down in the quality of the LSU offense in 2020), might have looked at the chance to opt out as an opportunity to avoid more than just the direct risk of Covid?
Like I said, I wouldn't want to assume that of anyone, especially doing so without really being mindful of the state of the pandemic at the time when they chose to opt out, but it sounds like the Giants are curious enough to at least be doing their due diligence on it.
we had a situation here in HS of one of the top prep RB's passing up football this Spring (they pushed the schedule back) or playing lacrosse where he was a top player in the country to protect his spot at Clemson. In fact, he didn't technically opt out, he graduated a semester early and already enrolled at Clemson.
Then there are the cases as Dunk mentioned above where players have COVID-related reasons. Where family members have been stricken, etc.
I think you just have to give a little more scrutiny, but just opting out shouldn't be a removal from a board automatically.