He's the same one that had said Josh Rosen was the best QB in his class and wasn't very impressed with Josh Allen. SO we're supposed to trust him about which non-QB to draft.
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
He's the same one that had said Josh Rosen was the best QB in his class and wasn't very impressed with Josh Allen. SO we're supposed to trust him about which non-QB to draft.
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
If you're referring to the interview Cosell did with a Cleveland radio guy just prior to that "QB Draft" then that's not how I remember it.
While he did mention Rosen as his top choice (which he prefaced by saying, "if I had to choose...") he was not down on Allen. He said that teams will like different QBs depending upon their systems...and that Allen was more of an improvisor when a play breaks down
In any event, I certainly hope you're not suggesting that we should automatically dismiss Cosell's opinion just because he got one wrong a few years ago.
ALL pro talent evaluators get SOME picks wrong. It's the nature of that occupation. Or as George Young used to say (paraphrasing) "Drafting players is just like getting Christmas presents. You never know what you're going to get until you open the box."
He is a pure film study....he is an actual guy who studies film.....so many of these talking heads...claim to...but rely on the reports people like Greg Cosell produces.
He tells you what a player is....not what he can be...so in a way, he was right about Rosen and Allen. Allen has turned into a very good QB....but at the time of draft....he was very raw. Rosen was a very polished college QB....attitude, circumstances has derailed him...
He does not interview players....he is a primary film source.
You need to hear what Cosell says about the player....and use that information to draw conclusions.
He did not say who the Giants should draft....he said Pitts (Evans) is an offensive weapon and Waddle (T.Hill)...J.Phillips is the best de edge but has baggage....which he doesn't really know much about....Chase is best pure WR.....he goes into traits of the QBs.
To take advantage....you need to listen to Cosell...not just the headlines.
A great interview. Thanks for sharing. Hindsight, as they say, is
Not a pure X boundry receiver needs to be put in motion.I didn't pick up on that with respect to Smith. I actually thought Waddle was more of a motion receiver.
for being wrong on the draft is an IQ test. Everybody f#cks up on the draft at times, and the longer you're around it, the more f#ck ups you'll have.
Rosen had perfect height, was a special thrower of the football, and very smart. If he clicked, you had a franchise QB. It didn't work out. Most won't. But he had tools.
To now disregard Cosell's opinion moving forward shows an inability to consume the information properly. Unfortunate, because Cosell is inarguably one of the best.
He's the same one that had said Josh Rosen was the best QB in his class and wasn't very impressed with Josh Allen. SO we're supposed to trust him about which non-QB to draft.
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
Why “trust” anything? Can’t he be good at his jobs and not get it 100% right like every other person in the business?
To me it’s about the information you give and how you give it. Cosell is great, basically the opposite of talking heads like Kiper who don’t give you much substance, or none at all.
He's the same one that had said Josh Rosen was the best QB in his class and wasn't very impressed with Josh Allen. SO we're supposed to trust him about which non-QB to draft.
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
He is a pure film study....he is an actual guy who studies film.....so many of these talking heads...claim to...but rely on the reports people like Greg Cosell produces.
He tells you what a player is....not what he can be...so in a way, he was right about Rosen and Allen. Allen has turned into a very good QB....but at the time of draft....he was very raw. Rosen was a very polished college QB....attitude, circumstances has derailed him...
He does not interview players....he is a primary film source.
You need to hear what Cosell says about the player....and use that information to draw conclusions.
He did not say who the Giants should draft....he said Pitts (Evans) is an offensive weapon and Waddle (T.Hill)...J.Phillips is the best de edge but has baggage....which he doesn't really know much about....Chase is best pure WR.....he goes into traits of the QBs.
To take advantage....you need to listen to Cosell...not just the headlines.
are a probability play. Nobody gets it right 100% of the time. If they do, they are just lucky. The sample size is small.
I agree, and also understanding the player and what will motivate them going forward is something we as fans and most draft evaluators don't have access to. That's why they always say they draft for the player, not the position. They have much more access to spending time with the player and their coaches than any draft guy, and that clearly is extremely important. Because it's never completely predictable, some projections don't work out; projecting personality is really hard, and injuries are unpredictable.
And system is important as well. Some quarterbacks wind up in the wrong system and it affects their confidence and success throughout their careers. These decisions involve millions and are really hard. Makes you respect the people who get things right most of the time.
He's the same one that had said Josh Rosen was the best QB in his class and wasn't very impressed with Josh Allen. SO we're supposed to trust him about which non-QB to draft.
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
No one is the end all be all but cosell is better than most if not better than everyone. He’s well prepared and doesnt pander to idiots.
hedged his bets on Adoree' Jackson. People are all over the place when evaluating him. The Giants need him to play at a high level given the money they threw at him.
RE: Biggest takeaway for me is how high he was on Ryan Anderson.
Under-the-radar signing who could thrive in Graham's defense. I guess we'll see.
I'm intrigued with this fit as well. I think there's potential for more there. And Ryan brings that "dog mentality". That's an underrated quality and missing element of the Giants front 7.
Not a pure X boundry receiver needs to be put in motion.I didn't pick up on that with respect to Smith. I actually thought Waddle was more of a motion receiver.
Yep, there’s been a few YouTube videos saying the exact opposite of that, showing that Smith is more than capable off the line and the ways he uses his body to get open quickly
thing about Anderson, which I raised in my FA review, was that Anderson was stuck behind a lot of very high draft picks in Washington.
When I watched some review tape on him, I was shocked at how often the ball was being dislodged from the ball carrier when he was in the vicinity. Has that classic tomahawk chop move. Hopefully he helps.
RE: RE: Thanks for this
JINTin Adirondacks : 3/24/2021 4:52 pm : link : reply
In comment 15196151 JINTin Adirondacks said:
Quote:
In comment [url.ants defense is in good shape.
I have a feeling this guy is gonna go off under Judge and Graham and turnout to be a huge FA signing. [/quote] Anderson that is
Yeah, when I looked at the stats on him, despite the limited playing time, I think he had something like 5 forced fumbles.
I think that four of those came during the final 6 games of the 2019 season when he received extensive playing including the only 4 starts of the season. He also had 4 sacks in those 6 games.
I’m cautiously optimistic about Ryan Anderson but I love these type of signings. He’s not going to be a star but Anderson could turn out to be a good player for the Giants now that he has a real opportunity to earn significant playing time.
The Giants will almost certainly draft an edge rusher early in the draft and there should be a fierce competition in training camp for roster spots between Carter, Ogdenigbo, Anderson, Ximines, Brown, Coughlin, and the draft pick. It wouldn’t surprise me if the Giants try to trade Ximines during the draft but I don’t think there will be much interest in him.
RE: he was lukewarm at best when speaking of jones
hedged his bets on Adoree' Jackson. People are all over the place when evaluating him. The Giants need him to play at a high level given the money they threw at him.
The Giants need him to stay healthy. His talent is undeniable, it's his durability that's questionable. Same as Golladay.
RE: he was lukewarm at best when speaking of jones
Why would he be otherwise? It's not like Jones lit it up last year. Still, I took his evaluation more like "the jury is still out," which is fair.
The longer the jury remains out the lower the probability he is the answer. This is an iron law of sports which some here seem to forget.
Is it really? Can you post a list of the Iron Laws of Sports? I've never seen one before.
Regardless, the jury is going to be deliberating Jones' fate for at least one more year, and it's clear that the Giants are doing everything they can to set him up for success. As Ric Flair was wont to say, "Whether you like it or not, learn to love it."
RE: RE: RE: RE: he was lukewarm at best when speaking of jones
Why would he be otherwise? It's not like Jones lit it up last year. Still, I took his evaluation more like "the jury is still out," which is fair.
The longer the jury remains out the lower the probability he is the answer. This is an iron law of sports which some here seem to forget.
Is it really? Can you post a list of the Iron Laws of Sports? I've never seen one before.
Regardless, the jury is going to be deliberating Jones' fate for at least one more year, and it's clear that the Giants are doing everything they can to set him up for success. As Ric Flair was wont to say, "Whether you like it or not, learn to love it."
Yes, that is an iron law. It is not just true, it is common sense. Compare two QBs that are the same age, if one has *made it* and the other hasn't, chances are the one who has *made it* will have the better career. Compare two other QBs who are a year apart, if they have achieved the same level of production, the younger one is the better bet to *make it*.
Bill James observed many years ago that a 20 yr old prospect who is at the same level as a 21 or 22 yr old, is ahead of them. Those are the probabilities. Doesn't mean it will always work out that way. But that's probability, whether you make bad jokes about it or not.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: he was lukewarm at best when speaking of jones
Why would he be otherwise? It's not like Jones lit it up last year. Still, I took his evaluation more like "the jury is still out," which is fair.
The longer the jury remains out the lower the probability he is the answer. This is an iron law of sports which some here seem to forget.
Is it really? Can you post a list of the Iron Laws of Sports? I've never seen one before.
Regardless, the jury is going to be deliberating Jones' fate for at least one more year, and it's clear that the Giants are doing everything they can to set him up for success. As Ric Flair was wont to say, "Whether you like it or not, learn to love it."
Yes, that is an iron law. It is not just true, it is common sense. Compare two QBs that are the same age, if one has *made it* and the other hasn't, chances are the one who has *made it* will have the better career. Compare two other QBs who are a year apart, if they have achieved the same level of production, the younger one is the better bet to *make it*.
Bill James observed many years ago that a 20 yr old prospect who is at the same level as a 21 or 22 yr old, is ahead of them. Those are the probabilities. Doesn't mean it will always work out that way. But that's probability, whether you make bad jokes about it or not.
Haha, the fucking worst!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: he was lukewarm at best when speaking of jones
Why would he be otherwise? It's not like Jones lit it up last year. Still, I took his evaluation more like "the jury is still out," which is fair.
The longer the jury remains out the lower the probability he is the answer. This is an iron law of sports which some here seem to forget.
Is it really? Can you post a list of the Iron Laws of Sports? I've never seen one before.
Regardless, the jury is going to be deliberating Jones' fate for at least one more year, and it's clear that the Giants are doing everything they can to set him up for success. As Ric Flair was wont to say, "Whether you like it or not, learn to love it."
Yes, that is an iron law. It is not just true, it is common sense. Compare two QBs that are the same age, if one has *made it* and the other hasn't, chances are the one who has *made it* will have the better career. Compare two other QBs who are a year apart, if they have achieved the same level of production, the younger one is the better bet to *make it*.
Bill James observed many years ago that a 20 yr old prospect who is at the same level as a 21 or 22 yr old, is ahead of them. Those are the probabilities. Doesn't mean it will always work out that way. But that's probability, whether you make bad jokes about it or not.
Haha, the fucking worst!
because math, science and logic are mysteries to you.
You're looking at QB's in a vacuum, except for their ages.
You're ignoring the situations they were put in when they were drafted, and the adversity (or lack thereof) they've had to deal with since then, which was precisely Cosell's point when he was asked about Jones, and why I said his evaluation was fair, and essentially that "the jury was still out." You don't want to hear that because you don't like Jones and feel the Giants should move on from him. Well, that's just not going to happen, not this year anyway, no matter what the Iron Laws say.
and oline is competent, we most likely will find out most things we need to
I think he will show up for the most part but will always be maddening in some respects
think he is a borderline top 10 qb at best, which isnt bad at all
probably enough to win it all if most of the other parts are in place
RE: You're looking at QB's in a vacuum, except for their ages.
You're ignoring the situations they were put in when they were drafted, and the adversity (or lack thereof) they've had to deal with since then, which was precisely Cosell's point when he was asked about Jones, and why I said his evaluation was fair, and essentially that "the jury was still out." You don't want to hear that because you don't like Jones and feel the Giants should move on from him. Well, that's just not going to happen, not this year anyway, no matter what the Iron Laws say.
Situation and adversity sounds like a catch-all excuse. Not sure how to measure it or factor it in. We have seen a body of work from Jones and none of it has been elite. Regarding those excuses the stats say his protection was near league bottom, but not the worst. That's not to say he can't become a star. He might, and I hope he does. But I don't think it is wise to pretend we know he is the answer. If we don't know he is the answer then we should be looking for a definite answer at QB, until he proves it. It is not smart, imo, for an NFL team to spend years waiting for a guy to come around. Each season is incredibly valuable and to squander seasons on a third year guy who hasn't proved it is foolish. And each year that goes by, the lower are his chances of becoming a franchise QB.
I thought that was common knowledge. Think Marvin Harrison/Victor Cruz to Reggie Wayne/Hakeem Nicks.
His suddenness off the line/ability to create instant separation, great hands and competitive drive is impossible to defend. He can get deep too. He would be the perfect compliment to Golladay. Shepard in the slot.
Golladay - Devonta Smith - Shepard. Plus Rudolph & Barkley. That's tough to defend.
RE: RE: You're looking at QB's in a vacuum, except for their ages.
You're ignoring the situations they were put in when they were drafted, and the adversity (or lack thereof) they've had to deal with since then, which was precisely Cosell's point when he was asked about Jones, and why I said his evaluation was fair, and essentially that "the jury was still out." You don't want to hear that because you don't like Jones and feel the Giants should move on from him. Well, that's just not going to happen, not this year anyway, no matter what the Iron Laws say.
Situation and adversity sounds like a catch-all excuse. Not sure how to measure it or factor it in. We have seen a body of work from Jones and none of it has been elite. Regarding those excuses the stats say his protection was near league bottom, but not the worst. That's not to say he can't become a star. He might, and I hope he does. But I don't think it is wise to pretend we know he is the answer. If we don't know he is the answer then we should be looking for a definite answer at QB, until he proves it. It is not smart, imo, for an NFL team to spend years waiting for a guy to come around. Each season is incredibly valuable and to squander seasons on a third year guy who hasn't proved it is foolish. And each year that goes by, the lower are his chances of becoming a franchise QB.
You're being disingenuous when you say that Jones might become a star and you hope he does. You think nothing of the sort, which is why you want the Giants to move on from him ASAP. I don't pretend to know if he's the real deal or not, but I'm willing to be patient with him and give him another year (with a much better supporting cast) to show me. Your mind is already made up.
As for situations and adversity, they're not excuses, they're reality. Jones has had abysmal protection, sub par receivers, and last year an anemic running game. Cosell touched on all three. To expect Jones to thrive when faced with all that is unrealistic, as he said.
As for spending "years waiting for a guy to come around," Jones is in year three...two in this offense. Do the Iron Laws give a fixed number of years to determine if a QB is the goods, or are they subject to change? It really doesn't matter. Cosell counseled patience, so I'm going to be patient. Clearly, so are the Giants.
You're ignoring the situations they were put in when they were drafted, and the adversity (or lack thereof) they've had to deal with since then, which was precisely Cosell's point when he was asked about Jones, and why I said his evaluation was fair, and essentially that "the jury was still out." You don't want to hear that because you don't like Jones and feel the Giants should move on from him. Well, that's just not going to happen, not this year anyway, no matter what the Iron Laws say.
Situation and adversity sounds like a catch-all excuse. Not sure how to measure it or factor it in. We have seen a body of work from Jones and none of it has been elite. Regarding those excuses the stats say his protection was near league bottom, but not the worst. That's not to say he can't become a star. He might, and I hope he does. But I don't think it is wise to pretend we know he is the answer. If we don't know he is the answer then we should be looking for a definite answer at QB, until he proves it. It is not smart, imo, for an NFL team to spend years waiting for a guy to come around. Each season is incredibly valuable and to squander seasons on a third year guy who hasn't proved it is foolish. And each year that goes by, the lower are his chances of becoming a franchise QB.
You're being disingenuous when you say that Jones might become a star and you hope he does. You think nothing of the sort, which is why you want the Giants to move on from him ASAP. I don't pretend to know if he's the real deal or not, but I'm willing to be patient with him and give him another year (with a much better supporting cast) to show me. Your mind is already made up.
As for situations and adversity, they're not excuses, they're reality. Jones has had abysmal protection, sub par receivers, and last year an anemic running game. Cosell touched on all three. To expect Jones to thrive when faced with all that is unrealistic, as he said.
As for spending "years waiting for a guy to come around," Jones is in year three...two in this offense. Do the Iron Laws give a fixed number of years to determine if a QB is the goods, or are they subject to change? It really doesn't matter. Cosell counseled patience, so I'm going to be patient. Clearly, so are the Giants.
a) I am not being disingenuous. My opinion is how I have stated it. And unless you have the power to read minds you will have to accept my statements on this. I have consistently made an assessment on DJ based on probabilities. Perhaps you do not understand my point.
b) Cosell does not think you have to view QBs with all the tools/weapons. I know this because I am a big Cosell fan and listen to almost all his podcast appearances. He has stated many times you can judge a QB outside of his context. I can direct you to his thoughts on this if you would like. Unlike you, and many on here, Cosell does not share the view that you must give QBs weapons to make an assessment of his traits and abilities.
c) We don't really know what Judge or Cosell for that matter think of Jones. Judge is saying nice things because he has to. Cosell wasn't asked to address Jones' skill set. I think there is reason to believe Cosell does not view Jones as special. His comments in this appearance seems to indicate that he views Jones as a game manager.
But he refrained from saying that was his ceiling, that he could be capable of becoming much more than that (the operative word being "could").
But in your previous post you wrote:
Quote:
. If we don't know he is the answer then we should be looking for a definite answer at QB, until he proves it.
How can he prove it (one way or the other) unless he plays?
Yet it seems to contradict what you wrote after that:
Quote:
It is not smart, imo, for an NFL team to spend years waiting for a guy to come around. Each season is incredibly valuable and to squander seasons on a third year guy who hasn't proved it is foolish. And each year that goes by, the lower are his chances of becoming a franchise QB.
On one hand, you're saying that Jones has to "prove it." On the other, you're saying it would be foolish for the Giants to give him another chance to "prove it," that they should know already. So, which is it?
Also, as I've written previously in other threads recommending that the Giants not move on from Jones right away, they have the opportunity to build a much stronger team on both sides of the ball this year and next. If they decide to move on from Jones, his replacement will inherit a much better team than Jones did.
But he refrained from saying that was his ceiling, that he could be capable of becoming much more than that (the operative word being "could").
But in your previous post you wrote:
Quote:
. If we don't know he is the answer then we should be looking for a definite answer at QB, until he proves it.
How can he prove it (one way or the other) unless he plays?
Yet it seems to contradict what you wrote after that:
Quote:
It is not smart, imo, for an NFL team to spend years waiting for a guy to come around. Each season is incredibly valuable and to squander seasons on a third year guy who hasn't proved it is foolish. And each year that goes by, the lower are his chances of becoming a franchise QB.
On one hand, you're saying that Jones has to "prove it." On the other, you're saying it would be foolish for the Giants to give him another chance to "prove it," that they should know already. So, which is it?
Also, as I've written previously in other threads recommending that the Giants not move on from Jones right away, they have the opportunity to build a much stronger team on both sides of the ball this year and next. If they decide to move on from Jones, his replacement will inherit a much better team than Jones did.
My opinion is that we have him, he's under contract, but the team should look at other prospects in case they fall to us, like Lance. If there is a guy who flashes better traits than Jones who is available I would take him. Jones would be the week one starter no matter what anyway. I am not afraid of competing QBs. Two good prospects battling it out increases the odds we find an elite QB. To me, finding an elite QB is the name of the game in the NFL. Get that and everything else is a lot easier.
Feels Giants go with Peart at RT (to me, he will compete with Solder) so he doesn't see Slater chosen. Sees Waddle and Pitts gone at #11.
If that's the case. Jaelen Phillips?
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
If you're referring to the interview Cosell did with a Cleveland radio guy just prior to that "QB Draft" then that's not how I remember it.
While he did mention Rosen as his top choice (which he prefaced by saying, "if I had to choose...") he was not down on Allen. He said that teams will like different QBs depending upon their systems...and that Allen was more of an improvisor when a play breaks down
In any event, I certainly hope you're not suggesting that we should automatically dismiss Cosell's opinion just because he got one wrong a few years ago.
ALL pro talent evaluators get SOME picks wrong. It's the nature of that occupation. Or as George Young used to say (paraphrasing) "Drafting players is just like getting Christmas presents. You never know what you're going to get until you open the box."
He tells you what a player is....not what he can be...so in a way, he was right about Rosen and Allen. Allen has turned into a very good QB....but at the time of draft....he was very raw. Rosen was a very polished college QB....attitude, circumstances has derailed him...
He does not interview players....he is a primary film source.
You need to hear what Cosell says about the player....and use that information to draw conclusions.
He did not say who the Giants should draft....he said Pitts (Evans) is an offensive weapon and Waddle (T.Hill)...J.Phillips is the best de edge but has baggage....which he doesn't really know much about....Chase is best pure WR.....he goes into traits of the QBs.
To take advantage....you need to listen to Cosell...not just the headlines.
Rosen had perfect height, was a special thrower of the football, and very smart. If he clicked, you had a franchise QB. It didn't work out. Most won't. But he had tools.
To now disregard Cosell's opinion moving forward shows an inability to consume the information properly. Unfortunate, because Cosell is inarguably one of the best.
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
Why “trust” anything? Can’t he be good at his jobs and not get it 100% right like every other person in the business?
To me it’s about the information you give and how you give it. Cosell is great, basically the opposite of talking heads like Kiper who don’t give you much substance, or none at all.
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
A lot of people had them ranked that way.
He tells you what a player is....not what he can be...so in a way, he was right about Rosen and Allen. Allen has turned into a very good QB....but at the time of draft....he was very raw. Rosen was a very polished college QB....attitude, circumstances has derailed him...
He does not interview players....he is a primary film source.
You need to hear what Cosell says about the player....and use that information to draw conclusions.
He did not say who the Giants should draft....he said Pitts (Evans) is an offensive weapon and Waddle (T.Hill)...J.Phillips is the best de edge but has baggage....which he doesn't really know much about....Chase is best pure WR.....he goes into traits of the QBs.
To take advantage....you need to listen to Cosell...not just the headlines.
You sure love the ellipsis.
I agree, and also understanding the player and what will motivate them going forward is something we as fans and most draft evaluators don't have access to. That's why they always say they draft for the player, not the position. They have much more access to spending time with the player and their coaches than any draft guy, and that clearly is extremely important. Because it's never completely predictable, some projections don't work out; projecting personality is really hard, and injuries are unpredictable.
And system is important as well. Some quarterbacks wind up in the wrong system and it affects their confidence and success throughout their careers. These decisions involve millions and are really hard. Makes you respect the people who get things right most of the time.
He certainly understands technique etc but he is not end-all be-all either.
No one is the end all be all but cosell is better than most if not better than everyone. He’s well prepared and doesnt pander to idiots.
I'm intrigued with this fit as well. I think there's potential for more there. And Ryan brings that "dog mentality". That's an underrated quality and missing element of the Giants front 7.
Yep, there’s been a few YouTube videos saying the exact opposite of that, showing that Smith is more than capable off the line and the ways he uses his body to get open quickly
JINTin Adirondacks : 3/24/2021 4:52 pm : link : reply
In comment 15196151 JINTin Adirondacks said:
Quote:
In comment [url.ants defense is in good shape.
I have a feeling this guy is gonna go off under Judge and Graham and turnout to be a huge FA signing. [/quote] Anderson that is
I think that four of those came during the final 6 games of the 2019 season when he received extensive playing including the only 4 starts of the season. He also had 4 sacks in those 6 games.
I’m cautiously optimistic about Ryan Anderson but I love these type of signings. He’s not going to be a star but Anderson could turn out to be a good player for the Giants now that he has a real opportunity to earn significant playing time.
The Giants will almost certainly draft an edge rusher early in the draft and there should be a fierce competition in training camp for roster spots between Carter, Ogdenigbo, Anderson, Ximines, Brown, Coughlin, and the draft pick. It wouldn’t surprise me if the Giants try to trade Ximines during the draft but I don’t think there will be much interest in him.
at best.. but mention that and some people lose their minds.
The "minor" free agent signings this year have been superb. Anderson, Ragland, Ross and Shelton in particular can be huge difference makers in 2021.
The Giants need him to stay healthy. His talent is undeniable, it's his durability that's questionable. Same as Golladay.
Why would he be otherwise? It's not like Jones lit it up last year. Still, I took his evaluation more like "the jury is still out," which is fair.
Quote:
.
Why would he be otherwise? It's not like Jones lit it up last year. Still, I took his evaluation more like "the jury is still out," which is fair.
The longer the jury remains out the lower the probability he is the answer. This is an iron law of sports which some here seem to forget.
Why would he be otherwise? It's not like Jones lit it up last year. Still, I took his evaluation more like "the jury is still out," which is fair.
The longer the jury remains out the lower the probability he is the answer. This is an iron law of sports which some here seem to forget.
Is it really? Can you post a list of the Iron Laws of Sports? I've never seen one before.
Regardless, the jury is going to be deliberating Jones' fate for at least one more year, and it's clear that the Giants are doing everything they can to set him up for success. As Ric Flair was wont to say, "Whether you like it or not, learn to love it."
Quote:
In comment 15208226 Klaatu said:
Why would he be otherwise? It's not like Jones lit it up last year. Still, I took his evaluation more like "the jury is still out," which is fair.
The longer the jury remains out the lower the probability he is the answer. This is an iron law of sports which some here seem to forget.
Is it really? Can you post a list of the Iron Laws of Sports? I've never seen one before.
Regardless, the jury is going to be deliberating Jones' fate for at least one more year, and it's clear that the Giants are doing everything they can to set him up for success. As Ric Flair was wont to say, "Whether you like it or not, learn to love it."
Yes, that is an iron law. It is not just true, it is common sense. Compare two QBs that are the same age, if one has *made it* and the other hasn't, chances are the one who has *made it* will have the better career. Compare two other QBs who are a year apart, if they have achieved the same level of production, the younger one is the better bet to *make it*.
Bill James observed many years ago that a 20 yr old prospect who is at the same level as a 21 or 22 yr old, is ahead of them. Those are the probabilities. Doesn't mean it will always work out that way. But that's probability, whether you make bad jokes about it or not.
Quote:
In comment 15208264 Producer said:
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In comment 15208226 Klaatu said:
Why would he be otherwise? It's not like Jones lit it up last year. Still, I took his evaluation more like "the jury is still out," which is fair.
The longer the jury remains out the lower the probability he is the answer. This is an iron law of sports which some here seem to forget.
Is it really? Can you post a list of the Iron Laws of Sports? I've never seen one before.
Regardless, the jury is going to be deliberating Jones' fate for at least one more year, and it's clear that the Giants are doing everything they can to set him up for success. As Ric Flair was wont to say, "Whether you like it or not, learn to love it."
Yes, that is an iron law. It is not just true, it is common sense. Compare two QBs that are the same age, if one has *made it* and the other hasn't, chances are the one who has *made it* will have the better career. Compare two other QBs who are a year apart, if they have achieved the same level of production, the younger one is the better bet to *make it*.
Bill James observed many years ago that a 20 yr old prospect who is at the same level as a 21 or 22 yr old, is ahead of them. Those are the probabilities. Doesn't mean it will always work out that way. But that's probability, whether you make bad jokes about it or not.
Haha, the fucking worst!
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In comment 15208279 Klaatu said:
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In comment 15208264 Producer said:
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In comment 15208226 Klaatu said:
Why would he be otherwise? It's not like Jones lit it up last year. Still, I took his evaluation more like "the jury is still out," which is fair.
The longer the jury remains out the lower the probability he is the answer. This is an iron law of sports which some here seem to forget.
Is it really? Can you post a list of the Iron Laws of Sports? I've never seen one before.
Regardless, the jury is going to be deliberating Jones' fate for at least one more year, and it's clear that the Giants are doing everything they can to set him up for success. As Ric Flair was wont to say, "Whether you like it or not, learn to love it."
Yes, that is an iron law. It is not just true, it is common sense. Compare two QBs that are the same age, if one has *made it* and the other hasn't, chances are the one who has *made it* will have the better career. Compare two other QBs who are a year apart, if they have achieved the same level of production, the younger one is the better bet to *make it*.
Bill James observed many years ago that a 20 yr old prospect who is at the same level as a 21 or 22 yr old, is ahead of them. Those are the probabilities. Doesn't mean it will always work out that way. But that's probability, whether you make bad jokes about it or not.
Haha, the fucking worst!
because math, science and logic are mysteries to you.
I think he will show up for the most part but will always be maddening in some respects
think he is a borderline top 10 qb at best, which isnt bad at all
probably enough to win it all if most of the other parts are in place
Situation and adversity sounds like a catch-all excuse. Not sure how to measure it or factor it in. We have seen a body of work from Jones and none of it has been elite. Regarding those excuses the stats say his protection was near league bottom, but not the worst. That's not to say he can't become a star. He might, and I hope he does. But I don't think it is wise to pretend we know he is the answer. If we don't know he is the answer then we should be looking for a definite answer at QB, until he proves it. It is not smart, imo, for an NFL team to spend years waiting for a guy to come around. Each season is incredibly valuable and to squander seasons on a third year guy who hasn't proved it is foolish. And each year that goes by, the lower are his chances of becoming a franchise QB.
His suddenness off the line/ability to create instant separation, great hands and competitive drive is impossible to defend. He can get deep too. He would be the perfect compliment to Golladay. Shepard in the slot.
Golladay - Devonta Smith - Shepard. Plus Rudolph & Barkley. That's tough to defend.
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You're ignoring the situations they were put in when they were drafted, and the adversity (or lack thereof) they've had to deal with since then, which was precisely Cosell's point when he was asked about Jones, and why I said his evaluation was fair, and essentially that "the jury was still out." You don't want to hear that because you don't like Jones and feel the Giants should move on from him. Well, that's just not going to happen, not this year anyway, no matter what the Iron Laws say.
Situation and adversity sounds like a catch-all excuse. Not sure how to measure it or factor it in. We have seen a body of work from Jones and none of it has been elite. Regarding those excuses the stats say his protection was near league bottom, but not the worst. That's not to say he can't become a star. He might, and I hope he does. But I don't think it is wise to pretend we know he is the answer. If we don't know he is the answer then we should be looking for a definite answer at QB, until he proves it. It is not smart, imo, for an NFL team to spend years waiting for a guy to come around. Each season is incredibly valuable and to squander seasons on a third year guy who hasn't proved it is foolish. And each year that goes by, the lower are his chances of becoming a franchise QB.
You're being disingenuous when you say that Jones might become a star and you hope he does. You think nothing of the sort, which is why you want the Giants to move on from him ASAP. I don't pretend to know if he's the real deal or not, but I'm willing to be patient with him and give him another year (with a much better supporting cast) to show me. Your mind is already made up.
As for situations and adversity, they're not excuses, they're reality. Jones has had abysmal protection, sub par receivers, and last year an anemic running game. Cosell touched on all three. To expect Jones to thrive when faced with all that is unrealistic, as he said.
As for spending "years waiting for a guy to come around," Jones is in year three...two in this offense. Do the Iron Laws give a fixed number of years to determine if a QB is the goods, or are they subject to change? It really doesn't matter. Cosell counseled patience, so I'm going to be patient. Clearly, so are the Giants.
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In comment 15208326 Klaatu said:
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You're ignoring the situations they were put in when they were drafted, and the adversity (or lack thereof) they've had to deal with since then, which was precisely Cosell's point when he was asked about Jones, and why I said his evaluation was fair, and essentially that "the jury was still out." You don't want to hear that because you don't like Jones and feel the Giants should move on from him. Well, that's just not going to happen, not this year anyway, no matter what the Iron Laws say.
Situation and adversity sounds like a catch-all excuse. Not sure how to measure it or factor it in. We have seen a body of work from Jones and none of it has been elite. Regarding those excuses the stats say his protection was near league bottom, but not the worst. That's not to say he can't become a star. He might, and I hope he does. But I don't think it is wise to pretend we know he is the answer. If we don't know he is the answer then we should be looking for a definite answer at QB, until he proves it. It is not smart, imo, for an NFL team to spend years waiting for a guy to come around. Each season is incredibly valuable and to squander seasons on a third year guy who hasn't proved it is foolish. And each year that goes by, the lower are his chances of becoming a franchise QB.
You're being disingenuous when you say that Jones might become a star and you hope he does. You think nothing of the sort, which is why you want the Giants to move on from him ASAP. I don't pretend to know if he's the real deal or not, but I'm willing to be patient with him and give him another year (with a much better supporting cast) to show me. Your mind is already made up.
As for situations and adversity, they're not excuses, they're reality. Jones has had abysmal protection, sub par receivers, and last year an anemic running game. Cosell touched on all three. To expect Jones to thrive when faced with all that is unrealistic, as he said.
As for spending "years waiting for a guy to come around," Jones is in year three...two in this offense. Do the Iron Laws give a fixed number of years to determine if a QB is the goods, or are they subject to change? It really doesn't matter. Cosell counseled patience, so I'm going to be patient. Clearly, so are the Giants.
a) I am not being disingenuous. My opinion is how I have stated it. And unless you have the power to read minds you will have to accept my statements on this. I have consistently made an assessment on DJ based on probabilities. Perhaps you do not understand my point.
b) Cosell does not think you have to view QBs with all the tools/weapons. I know this because I am a big Cosell fan and listen to almost all his podcast appearances. He has stated many times you can judge a QB outside of his context. I can direct you to his thoughts on this if you would like. Unlike you, and many on here, Cosell does not share the view that you must give QBs weapons to make an assessment of his traits and abilities.
c) We don't really know what Judge or Cosell for that matter think of Jones. Judge is saying nice things because he has to. Cosell wasn't asked to address Jones' skill set. I think there is reason to believe Cosell does not view Jones as special. His comments in this appearance seems to indicate that he views Jones as a game manager.
But in your previous post you wrote:
How can he prove it (one way or the other) unless he plays?
Yet it seems to contradict what you wrote after that:
On one hand, you're saying that Jones has to "prove it." On the other, you're saying it would be foolish for the Giants to give him another chance to "prove it," that they should know already. So, which is it?
Also, as I've written previously in other threads recommending that the Giants not move on from Jones right away, they have the opportunity to build a much stronger team on both sides of the ball this year and next. If they decide to move on from Jones, his replacement will inherit a much better team than Jones did.
But in your previous post you wrote:
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. If we don't know he is the answer then we should be looking for a definite answer at QB, until he proves it.
How can he prove it (one way or the other) unless he plays?
Yet it seems to contradict what you wrote after that:
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It is not smart, imo, for an NFL team to spend years waiting for a guy to come around. Each season is incredibly valuable and to squander seasons on a third year guy who hasn't proved it is foolish. And each year that goes by, the lower are his chances of becoming a franchise QB.
On one hand, you're saying that Jones has to "prove it." On the other, you're saying it would be foolish for the Giants to give him another chance to "prove it," that they should know already. So, which is it?
Also, as I've written previously in other threads recommending that the Giants not move on from Jones right away, they have the opportunity to build a much stronger team on both sides of the ball this year and next. If they decide to move on from Jones, his replacement will inherit a much better team than Jones did.
My opinion is that we have him, he's under contract, but the team should look at other prospects in case they fall to us, like Lance. If there is a guy who flashes better traits than Jones who is available I would take him. Jones would be the week one starter no matter what anyway. I am not afraid of competing QBs. Two good prospects battling it out increases the odds we find an elite QB. To me, finding an elite QB is the name of the game in the NFL. Get that and everything else is a lot easier.