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Chris Canty on Daniel Jones..... FWIW

Jalapeno : 4/4/2021 9:55 pm
Quote:
Mara said the entire building “thinks the world” of Jones, which echoes the sentiments of general manager Dave Gettleman and head coach Joe Judge. But Mara took things a step further, saying Jones has the potential to follow the same path as Eli Manning.

In other words, Mara expects multiple titles out of Jones.

“Yes he does [have what it takes],” Mara said. “I can say that without any hesitation. . . I don’t see why [he couldn’t win multiple titles]. If we put the right pieces around him.”


Canty in response;

Quote:
“I don’t know how [Mara] can say that definitively based on what we’ve seen from DJ his first couple of years. I mean, he’s got 39 turnovers in two seasons starting. It’s hard to win consistently when your quarterback is turning the ball over 20 times a year,” Canty said. “I just don’t know how you make that statement.”

Canty said that although the Giants may like Jones the person, there’s absolutely no reason to believe he can have any level of success in the NFL.

“Based on the production — or lack thereof — there’s no way you can have conviction that Daniel Jones is your guy going forward,” Canty said.

link - ( New Window )
Sour grapes...  
'25GiantsPride : 4/4/2021 10:00 pm : link
On top of trying to work the NY media market. I remember Eli's first two year's....😵‍💫
He is right  
TommyWiseau : 4/4/2021 10:01 pm : link
They probably love how hard a worker he is, how great a person, etc.. but he needs to now translate that onto the field. It's put up or shut up and I think DG and Judge are going to do their hardest come April 29th to get this kid another weapon or two.
...  
Ben in Tampa : 4/4/2021 10:02 pm : link
Quote:
Although he acknowledges that Jones is hampered by a bad offensive scheme, bad offensive line and underwhelming receivers, Canty still faults Jones for all of the team’s offensive woes. And in the end, Canty also believes Mara took his support of Jones entirely too far.
Eli was a freaking  
section125 : 4/4/2021 10:03 pm : link
turnover machine.

Who gives a shit what Canty says. Did Canty include the 6 INTs that bounced off Engram's hands?
Time will tell  
eric2425ny : 4/4/2021 10:04 pm : link
We signed Golladay and Rudolph and Barkley will be back. I’m assuming they will pick a WR in the first 3 rounds and another Guard to push the guys we have now.

It’s a big year for both Jones and Judge. Not comparing Jones to Allen necessarily, but Bills fans were not exactly thrilled with Josh Allen after year 2 and look what happened there. The Bills traded for Diggs, added Gabriel Davis and drafted the RB from Utah to add depth to that group. The results spoke for themselves. Keep in mind that the Bills GM was an executive under Gettleman in Carolina. Us seemingly mirroring their approach this offseason is not that far fetched when you look at us adding Golladay.

Look, he’s not entirely wrong  
Ben in Tampa : 4/4/2021 10:05 pm : link
Jones has to prove he’s the guy. The Giants went out and spent money on a big time player maker. They got him an a big time safety blanket. They’ve got the draft and second tier free agency to give him more weapons, more linemen, etc.

It’s his third year. Second in the same system. The coaching staff is top level. No more excuses for Jones. He’s gotta prove it this year. I think he can do it.
RE: Eli was a freaking  
eric2425ny : 4/4/2021 10:08 pm : link
In comment 15209330 section125 said:
Quote:
turnover machine.

Who gives a shit what Canty says. Did Canty include the 6 INTs that bounced off Engram's hands?


Yup, I remember fans being really frustrated with Eli after his first few years wondering if he was “the guy”. And he had a much much better supporting cast around him. Toomer, Shockey, Barber, Strahan, excellent offensive line, and Burress in year 2. Jones had virtually none of that with no one close to Toomer or Burress level at WR and no RB close to Tiki with Barkley hurt. The offensive line speaks for itself, didn’t start to gel until the second half of Jones’ second season.
Jones  
AcidTest : 4/4/2021 10:11 pm : link
is either in over his head or his performance has been hindered by a lack of weapons. I am in the latter category, but agree the answer is as yet unknown. But we should have an answer at the end of this season.
Canty  
Straw Hat : 4/4/2021 10:12 pm : link
Has been negative on the giants ever since he retired. Shits on them at any opportunity.
I never liked Canty  
LeonBright45 : 4/4/2021 10:13 pm : link
He was always just another ex-Cowboy prick who is not likable in any way. He likes to hear himself talk but he never has anything to say. He is lucky to have a job and a ring that he didn't contribute much to earning.
Hard to argue with Canty...  
bw in dc : 4/4/2021 10:15 pm : link
since the first two chapters of Jones's career have been ordinary - at best.

Mara, of course, is saying what he should say. But I really wish these Eli comps would just end. They just aren't the same players. Eli has considerably more arm talent and pedigree. Jones is a better athlete and runner.
RE: Time will tell  
giantstock : 4/4/2021 10:20 pm : link
In comment 15209331 eric2425ny said:
Quote:


It’s a big year for both Jones and Judge.


why is it a big year for Judge?

For example, if Jones and/or Barkley don't perform it's on Gettleman, isn't it?

RE: Eli was a freaking  
Matt M. : 4/4/2021 10:20 pm : link
In comment 15209330 section125 said:
Quote:
turnover machine.

Who gives a shit what Canty says. Did Canty include the 6 INTs that bounced off Engram's hands?
Are you counting all the INTs caused by Randle, Manningham, etc.?
RE: Hard to argue with Canty...  
section125 : 4/4/2021 10:22 pm : link
In comment 15209340 bw in dc said:
Quote:
since the first two chapters of Jones's career have been ordinary - at best.

Mara, of course, is saying what he should say. But I really wish these Eli comps would just end. They just aren't the same players. Eli has considerably more arm talent and pedigree. Jones is a better athlete and runner.


Last year sucked with a new oline, new OC, no OTAs and no weapons, but he clearly cut back on the fumbles that still needs improving on.
His 1st year was not ordinary. Yes we can harp on the turn overs (especially fumbles) were awful. But he had some really good games and broke some rookie records, didn't he?

This year should let us know, but a certain group has already made up its' mind hasn't it?
He has a lot to prove  
Lines of Scrimmage : 4/4/2021 10:24 pm : link
I am concerned but he has been dealt a tough hand. Winning in NY takes a special person. We have Joe Willie, Simms (Hosteltler a half) and Manning. Two teams and 50 years and three QB's got to the destination.

Let's hope he takes a big step this year. It won't be from lack of effort and that is all we can ask imo. Get the run game going and he has a shot.
I think it is perfectly possible and logical to be a Giants fan,  
Matt M. : 4/4/2021 10:24 pm : link
love the Giants, like Daniel Jones, yet NOT believe without any doubt that he has what it takes, he is the man, whatever. That is not the same thing as saying he sucks, he can never win, etc. It works both ways. For some, there were enough nice throws in year one to make them WANT to believe. For others, there were enough INTs, fumbles, and sacks, plus a very ordinary showing when he couldn't run to have doubts.

After two years, I think objectively, the jury has to still be out on Jones. This is a crucial year for him. He either has to take a step forward, or they have to be willing to move on, take their medicine, and draft another QB.
Pro Jones point at team around him, the anti- Jones point at  
George from PA : 4/4/2021 10:24 pm : link
The turnovers....but the truth is somewhere in the middle.

TBD

We should have a much clearer picture soon enough
It was dumb of Mara to answer the question the way he did.  
robbieballs2003 : 4/4/2021 10:24 pm : link
Take advice from Judge. Don't talk about championships. Focus on the process and the results take care of themselves.
In fact  
Producer : 4/4/2021 10:27 pm : link
Canty is 100% right. This kid has done nothing to show he is a championship QB. If you think he has you are tripping on the blue Kool-Aid.

It is very hard to be an NFL QB. Even harder to succeed. And much harder still to win titles. Jones isn't even at first base, and we're entering his third year. If he doesn't start playing great, this season, it will be time to move on.
Give us the ring back, Chris  
Geomon : 4/4/2021 10:30 pm : link
RE: In fact  
section125 : 4/4/2021 10:31 pm : link
In comment 15209357 Producer said:
Quote:
Canty is 100% right. This kid has done nothing to show he is a championship QB. If you think he has you are tripping on the blue Kool-Aid.

It is very hard to be an NFL QB. Even harder to succeed. And much harder still to win titles. Jones isn't even at first base, and we're entering his third year. If he doesn't start playing great, this season, it will be time to move on.


Every QB in the NFL should be judged on his first two seasons......
RE: ...  
Hammer : 4/4/2021 10:31 pm : link
In comment 15209329 Ben in Tampa said:
Quote:


Quote:


Although he acknowledges that Jones is hampered by a bad offensive scheme, bad offensive line and underwhelming receivers, Canty still faults Jones for all of the team’s offensive woes. And in the end, Canty also believes Mara took his support of Jones entirely too far.



So Canty acknowledges that the scheme, line and receivers suck but Jones is at fault for all of the offensive problems?

How does that even make sense?

Sometimes I think these media guys talk just to fill time. The shit they say is grounded in thin air.
RE: RE: Hard to argue with Canty...  
bw in dc : 4/4/2021 10:35 pm : link
In comment 15209349 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15209340 bw in dc said:


Quote:


since the first two chapters of Jones's career have been ordinary - at best.

Mara, of course, is saying what he should say. But I really wish these Eli comps would just end. They just aren't the same players. Eli has considerably more arm talent and pedigree. Jones is a better athlete and runner.



Last year sucked with a new oline, new OC, no OTAs and no weapons, but he clearly cut back on the fumbles that still needs improving on.
His 1st year was not ordinary. Yes we can harp on the turn overs (especially fumbles) were awful. But he had some really good games and broke some rookie records, didn't he?

This year should let us know, but a certain group has already made up its' mind hasn't it?


We've covered this real estate quite a bit, but, yes, Jones did have some good games his rookie year. But those were offset by some poor moments. Which is to be expected for a rookie. And that showed up in a QBR that was ordinary versus the rest of the league.

And, yes, 2021 is a critical year for sure.

My mind isn't made up, but I wouldn't buy anymore Jones stock. I would suggest one more year of holding the stock.
RE: RE: ...  
Matt M. : 4/4/2021 10:36 pm : link
In comment 15209362 Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 15209329 Ben in Tampa said:


Quote:




Quote:


Although he acknowledges that Jones is hampered by a bad offensive scheme, bad offensive line and underwhelming receivers, Canty still faults Jones for all of the team’s offensive woes. And in the end, Canty also believes Mara took his support of Jones entirely too far.





So Canty acknowledges that the scheme, line and receivers suck but Jones is at fault for all of the offensive problems?

How does that even make sense?

Sometimes I think these media guys talk just to fill time. The shit they say is grounded in thin air.
Except that's one excerpt from the article that is not a direct quote. I doubt very highly that Canty blames Jones for all their woes. That is equally as insane. But, yes, he does think Mara took his praise too far based on what we've seen thus far.
Lol...  
'25GiantsPride : 4/4/2021 11:18 pm : link
Stats don't lie. We are heading into Jone's third year.Canty's been a bitter former Giant for awhile. Big year for Jone's coming up. I thank daily that I'm not a Jet's fan...
RE: Hard to argue with Canty...  
HomerJones45 : 4/4/2021 11:20 pm : link
In comment 15209340 bw in dc said:
Quote:
since the first two chapters of Jones's career have been ordinary - at best.

Mara, of course, is saying what he should say. But I really wish these Eli comps would just end. They just aren't the same players. Eli has considerably more arm talent and pedigree. Jones is a better athlete and runner.
Not the same players, not the same offense and not the same era.

In 2020, for example, Nick Mullens had the worst int percentage in the NFL at 3.7%. that would not have made the top 10 in 2006. Drew Lock led the NFL with 15 picks in 2020. that would not have been 13th highest in 2006.

I don't know whether Jones will be good long term or not. He's one of those players that both sides of the debate can find something to point to in support of their position, and I don't think that comparing qb's in different offenses in different eras is apropos. What Manning did or didn't do has no bearing on whether Jones will be what his supporters think he will be.
Canty  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/4/2021 11:44 pm : link
is an odd guy... at times, he has alternated between Giants "homer" and "hater"... it seems he's been on the "hater" side of things in recent months.

Not saying he is right or wrong, but he's not consistent.
RE: In fact  
LeonBright45 : 4/4/2021 11:50 pm : link
In comment 15209357 Producer said:
Quote:
Canty is 100% right. This kid has done nothing to show he is a championship QB. If you think he has you are tripping on the blue Kool-Aid.

It is very hard to be an NFL QB. Even harder to succeed. And much harder still to win titles. Jones isn't even at first base, and we're entering his third year. If he doesn't start playing great, this season, it will be time to move on.


Nobody wants to have to read your opinion and drivel on the subject of Daniel Jones. Please just take everyone's advice and just STFU already.
RE: RE: In fact  
HMunster : 4/4/2021 11:54 pm : link
In comment 15209361 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 15209357 Producer said:


Quote:


Canty is 100% right. This kid has done nothing to show he is a championship QB. If you think he has you are tripping on the blue Kool-Aid.

It is very hard to be an NFL QB. Even harder to succeed. And much harder still to win titles. Jones isn't even at first base, and we're entering his third year. If he doesn't start playing great, this season, it will be time to move on.



Every QB in the NFL should be judged on his first two seasons......

LOL

I heard Dallas has this kid they picked #1 overall, named Troy Aikman.
Year 1: 11 games / 1,749 yards / 9 TDs / 18 INTs / 52.9% completion
Year 2: 15 games / 2,579 yards / 11 TDs / 18 INTs / 56.6% completion

He obviously sucks. They should get rid of him. He’s definitely not worth the #1 overall pick and will never be a good NFL quarterback.
Some stats for some perspective...  
RomanWH : 4/4/2021 11:58 pm : link
Eli's first 2 full seasons stats:
2005 - 17 Ints and 9 fumbles
2006 - 18 Ints and 9 fumbles
Makes for a total of 53.

In his rookie year, he played 9 games(7 starts) and had 9 Ints and 3 fumbles. Which if you did the math, would prorate out to be about 21 total turnovers.

There was another player who in his first two seasons:
-12 Ints and 12 fumbles
-14 Ints and 11 fumbles
Makes for a total of 49 over 2 seasons. That player's Tom Brady.
RE: In fact  
Jay on the Island : 4/5/2021 12:09 am : link
In comment 15209357 Producer said:
Quote:
Canty is 100% right. This kid has done nothing to show he is a championship QB. If you think he has you are tripping on the blue Kool-Aid.

It is very hard to be an NFL QB. Even harder to succeed. And much harder still to win titles. Jones isn't even at first base, and we're entering his third year. If he doesn't start playing great, this season, it will be time to move on.

How predictable.
Two things can be simultaneously true about Canty's comments:  
Big Blue Blogger : 4/5/2021 12:33 am : link
1) He's generally right about 2021 being a critical year in which Jones needs to protect the ball and show he can win, under less than perfect conditions.

2) His opinion isn't worth any more, at this point, than anyone else's. He's not in the building evaluating tape with the coaching staff. He's just looking at the same stats and won-loss record we are, and drawing conclusions that many of us have drawn.

As for Eli Manning, he wasn't just a turnover machine early on. 2010 was horrendous. And while injuries to his supporting cast were a factor, he also made some of the most boneheaded plays I've ever seen... in his seventh season.
RE: Two things can be simultaneously true about Canty's comments:  
Matt M. : 4/5/2021 1:29 am : link
In comment 15209394 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
1) He's generally right about 2021 being a critical year in which Jones needs to protect the ball and show he can win, under less than perfect conditions.

2) His opinion isn't worth any more, at this point, than anyone else's. He's not in the building evaluating tape with the coaching staff. He's just looking at the same stats and won-loss record we are, and drawing conclusions that many of us have drawn.

As for Eli Manning, he wasn't just a turnover machine early on. 2010 was horrendous. And while injuries to his supporting cast were a factor, he also made some of the most boneheaded plays I've ever seen... in his seventh season.
I never felt 2010 was horrendous. Too many take the easy way out and look only at his INTs that year. He also completed 63% of his passes, threw for over 4000 years, had 31 TDs. He had a lot of very good games with a some bad plays. And, they won 10 games that year. By no stretch would I rave about his season, but I also wouldn't say it was horrendous and I always felt it laid the groundwork for 2011 from him.
RE: Two things can be simultaneously true about Canty's comments:  
Optimus-NY : 4/5/2021 1:32 am : link
In comment 15209394 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
1) He's generally right about 2021 being a critical year in which Jones needs to protect the ball and show he can win, under less than perfect conditions.

2) His opinion isn't worth any more, at this point, than anyone else's. He's not in the building evaluating tape with the coaching staff. He's just looking at the same stats and won-loss record we are, and drawing conclusions that many of us have drawn.

As for Eli Manning, he wasn't just a turnover machine early on. 2010 was horrendous. And while injuries to his supporting cast were a factor, he also made some of the most boneheaded plays I've ever seen... in his seventh season.


Remember Eli's underhand/sideways toss into the end zone near the goal line in the Titans game at home that year that they lost to that scumbag Jeff Fisher? I wanted to strangle Eli after seeing him make that Fevre-esque "throw."
This thread is like a who's who of dupes  
Greg from LI : 4/5/2021 2:40 am : link
Anyway I see the silly comparisons to Eli are continuing.
Greg: I agree that the comparisons to Eli are dumb.  
Big Blue Blogger : 4/5/2021 3:55 am : link
They also seem to be inescapable. Manning was the Giants’ QB for fifteen years, and Jones’s immediate predecessor. Similarities to Eli are often cited as part of DJ’s appeal to the organization. I think that’s stupid and irrelevant, but it’s not going away.

Eli was a pretty good regular season QB who had two magical playoff runs. His career was unique and bizarre, and probably shouldn’t be used as a yardstick for anyone else, including Daniel Jones. Plus Jones is a completely different player, with both capabilities and limitations that Manning didn’t have. Reporters keep framing the dumb comparisons though, and Mara went down the rabbit hole when he could have just said “Eli was Eli. We want Daniel to be Daniel, not Eli.”
I just can't get  
madeinstars : 4/5/2021 4:21 am : link
With the Eli comparisons. First of all that's a sample size of 1. Even if Jones' stats were exactly the same as Eli's in his first two years, that wouldn't mean shit about how he ends up.

Secondly, the NFL is a completely different league regarding QB's coming out of college and performing. 1st round QB's are expected to produce quickly once they are in the NFL and both the college game and the NFL have evolved for that to be completely possible.

Instead of comparing to Eli 20 years ago, ask yourself if any QB's turned it around from being iffy after 2 years to being THE guy.

An argument could be made for Tannehill, but he needed a complete change of scenery for it to happen. Maybe Mayfield? But he sure still has a lot of doubters on this sub.
RE: I just can't get  
madeinstars : 4/5/2021 4:22 am : link
In comment 15209405 madeinstars said:
Quote:
With the Eli comparisons. First of all that's a sample size of 1. Even if Jones' stats were exactly the same as Eli's in his first two years, that wouldn't mean shit about how he ends up.

Secondly, the NFL is a completely different league regarding QB's coming out of college and performing. 1st round QB's are expected to produce quickly once they are in the NFL and both the college game and the NFL have evolved for that to be completely possible.

Instead of comparing to Eli 20 years ago, ask yourself if any QB's turned it around from being iffy after 2 years to being THE guy.

An argument could be made for Tannehill, but he needed a complete change of scenery for it to happen. Maybe Mayfield? But he sure still has a lot of doubters on this sub.


I meant to say forum, not sub. I'm not on Reddit, wtf?
Madeinstars: Josh Allen.  
Big Blue Blogger : 4/5/2021 4:43 am : link
More progress in Year 2 than DJ, but the big leap was in Year 3. Also Cam Newton, if you go back a few more years. But the sample size for QBs is always small, and each case is unique.
Also Dak Prescott.  
Big Blue Blogger : 4/5/2021 4:49 am : link
His stats were always pretty good, but he didn’t become anyone’s idea of a $140MM QB until year 4.
the more often  
BigBlueCane : 4/5/2021 4:59 am : link
a former player appears on ESPN, the more likely they are to move towards "hot takes" then actual commentary.

Jones has to play much better then he has been. Lets see if he can rise to the occasion.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 4/5/2021 6:00 am : link
Based on what he's shown thus far, the thought of Jones winning MULTIPLE Super Bowls here is laughable. That doesn't mean it can't change...
RE: Hard to argue with Canty...  
Capt. Don : 4/5/2021 6:17 am : link
In comment 15209340 bw in dc said:
Quote:
since the first two chapters of Jones's career have been ordinary - at best.

Mara, of course, is saying what he should say. But I really wish these Eli comps would just end. They just aren't the same players. Eli has considerably more arm talent and pedigree. Jones is a better athlete and runner.


I dont agree that Eli had more arm talent - not at all. Early in his career Eli had much better pocket presence and later in his career he was much better at making the right reads but Jones has better arm talent, IMO.
RE: Canty  
Jim in Tampa : 4/5/2021 6:25 am : link
In comment 15209381 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
is an odd guy... at times, he has alternated between Giants "homer" and "hater"... it seems he's been on the "hater" side of things in recent months.

Not saying he is right or wrong, but he's not consistent.

I really don't pay much attention to Canty's takes or any of those ESPN shows. But if an ex-player seems like a Giants "homer" at some times and a Giants "hater" at other times, wouldn't the most likely observation be that he is at all times expressing his honest opinion?
Just look  
mdthedream : 4/5/2021 7:00 am : link
at the weapons we have had in the last two years. Slayton is the top guy and he is avg the rest I mean come on. The Oline was a mess that improved at the end of last year. I think this coaching staff has the team going in the right direction. Losing Barkley the only real offensive weapon we have was a big blow. I think addding KG will be huge but I do believe we should add more weapons. Every team in the league didn't respect the offensive players we had I would have pressured the giants all day long and we all know the wr couldn't get open. Engram lost us two game on his own.
Here comes the Canty  
MtDizzle : 4/5/2021 7:08 am : link
hate now, comical. How dare he have an opinion about a QB with a lot to prove.
Canty has bashed NYG for drafting Barkley over Darnold forever  
Rjanyg : 4/5/2021 7:18 am : link
How has that worked out so far? Barkley had a great rookie year and has shown big play ability and had since been hurt. The Jets maybe selecting a QB with the 2nd pick this year.

It can be argued that both Jones and Darnold haven’t had great talent around them. Both teams are still trying to rebuild the O Line and have finally added some targets with the draft yet to come.

I like Jones and I actually think Darnold is solid. Canty is part of a nonstop media that needs to justify their existence by being overly critical about a position he hasn’t played.
.  
Danny Kanell : 4/5/2021 7:22 am : link
The turnover thing is getting old and lazy and typical of a media talking head, which Canty has become. I think a Jones had 1 pick and 1 fumble in his last 6 games last season. He’s been improving pretty significantly in that area.

I think the bigger question is does he make enough plays to win consistently. That’s what we need to find out.
RE: .  
Big Blue '56 : 4/5/2021 7:30 am : link
In comment 15209427 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
The turnover thing is getting old and lazy and typical of a media talking head, which Canty has become. I think a Jones had 1 pick and 1 fumble in his last 6 games last season. He’s been improving pretty significantly in that area.

I think the bigger question is does he make enough plays to win consistently. That’s what we need to find out.


Thank you. See how simple a rational post is? 😎
What Canty and many others don’t seem to understand  
BillT : 4/5/2021 7:31 am : link
I’d that DG, JJ, and JM have information that he doesn’t. What they know about DJ is far more than what he’s shown on the field. They have two years of practice tape just for starters. JJ isn’t tying himself to Jones for no good reason. Ultimately, Jones does have to show it on the field but those who only have what they’ve seen in games are not well informed. Canty should know better even if others don’t.
RE: Eli was a freaking  
Blue21 : 4/5/2021 7:31 am : link
In comment 15209330 section125 said:
Quote:
turnover machine.

Who gives a shit what Canty says. Did Canty include the 6 INTs that bounced off Engram's hands?


Totally agree. Mid career he had years he was throwing 25 and 26 pics. Look I hope Daniel can do what Eli did with Chanmpionships but his biggest problems have been fumbles which I think is correctable. Jones threw 12 and 10 pics his first two years I believe.

Now I agree with most of BBI that this is the year Jones needs to take a leap. My concern is people thinking he has to be Drew Brees or Peyton Manning this year or he sucks. I doubt that will happen but he needs to show true development that he can be a top QB in this league.
Nice to see the...  
bw in dc : 4/5/2021 7:34 am : link
“Shoot the Messenger” crowd has gathered.

Thou shall not criticize the Giants...
RE: Some stats for some perspective...  
Mellowmood92 : 4/5/2021 7:50 am : link
In comment 15209387 RomanWH said:
Quote:
Eli's first 2 full seasons stats:
2005 - 17 Ints and 9 fumbles
2006 - 18 Ints and 9 fumbles
Makes for a total of 53.

In his rookie year, he played 9 games(7 starts) and had 9 Ints and 3 fumbles. Which if you did the math, would prorate out to be about 21 total turnovers.

There was another player who in his first two seasons:
-12 Ints and 12 fumbles
-14 Ints and 11 fumbles
Makes for a total of 49 over 2 seasons. That player's Tom Brady.


I was looking at the same statistics. Another one to add, through Eli's first 23 games (first two seasons) he was sacked 41x. Through DJ's first 27 games (first two seasons) he was sacked 83x!

We all know Eli was very good at getting rid of the ball and not taking sacks, but even taking that into account -the offensive talent Eli played with his first two seasons and the quality of his offensive line, is not comparable to the crap that DJ's been playing with.

I was an Eli laggard  
pjcas18 : 4/5/2021 8:00 am : link
and it wasn't just because of the turnovers it was more because of the bad decisions in general and I felt the offense should be better. Eli was different than Jones. With Eli it was because I felt like the OL while in 2005 when it became solidified they hadn't become yet what they wound up being (a very solid line) they were "good enough" and he had probably the best offensive skill players in my Giants memory

Tiki
Shockey
Burress
Toomer

combine that with a solid line and the offense should be better. You can only blame play calling for so long.

Eli bothered me because of the bad decisions.

It wasn't until the 2007 playoffs that I turned around on Eli and even then sometimes after that the bad decision making still came out, but I learned to appreciate what Eli was trying to do and why he made that decision (some times), but either way the 2007 playoffs gave Eli the benefit of the doubt in my mind.

Will Daniel Jones, who has a much worse OL and much worse skill players than Eli (in year 2 for both of them at least) get the chance to have his "2007 playoffs" for doubters like me?

Not sure, but he has been underwhelming and it may be poor OL, poor skill players, and poor scheme, but he makes poor decisions too and he has not yet earned the benefit of the doubt for me, much like Eli didn't for me until the end of his 4th season.
Chris Canty has single handedly  
UConn4523 : 4/5/2021 8:02 am : link
ended the Barkley thread and moved it over to his own thread. Selfish prick!
the ONLY consistent take by the media on Jones is the turnovers  
blueblood : 4/5/2021 8:09 am : link
-very few comment on the fact that the OL has been horrible.

-That he has learned two different offenses in two years

-That he hasnt played with Barkley most of his starts

-That last year Even Engram CAUSED like 6-8 INTS

-That he has been throwing to household names like CJ Board and Dante Pettis

Danie Jones can make throws. He has to become more consistent. He has to limit the mistakes but he cant become OVERLY cautious. He also has to stay healthy. I believe he can be an very productive QB in this league

-That he excels at throwing against man coverage

-That has some of the best ratings for a deep ball passer

-That when given time ( which is rare ) he has very good ball accuracy
Daniel Jones year 2 highlights - ( New Window )
RE: Nice to see the...  
MtDizzle : 4/5/2021 8:26 am : link
In comment 15209437 bw in dc said:
Quote:
“Shoot the Messenger” crowd has gathered.

Thou shall not criticize the Giants...


Seriously. It’s not like he criticized a proven good player. Jones has a ton to prove the giants fan and the entire league.
RE: Hard to argue with Canty...  
k2tampa : 4/5/2021 8:48 am : link
In comment 15209340 bw in dc said:
Quote:
since the first two chapters of Jones's career have been ordinary - at best.

Mara, of course, is saying what he should say. But I really wish these Eli comps would just end. They just aren't the same players. Eli has considerably more arm talent and pedigree. Jones is a better athlete and runner.


How quickly they forget. His rookie year was hardly "ordinary at best." The only negative was the fumbles.
12 starts
62 percent completion rate
3,000 yards
24 TDs (fourth most by a rookie) and 12 INT
QB rating 87.7
Threw TD passes in his first 12 starts (breaking the team rookie record for 9 straight games with a TD)

Mannings' first year (9 starts):
48 percent completion
1,050 yards
6 TDs, 9 INTs
55.4 QB rating.

Eli's second year (16 starts)
53 percent
3750 yards
24 TDs, 17 INTs (and 9 fumbles)
76 QB rating

Manning didn't have an 87 QB rating until his fifth year (86.6). And in his second year Manning had Burress, Toomer and Shockey. He had a line of Pettigout, Diehl, O'Hara, Snee and McKenzie.

Jones was the first rookie QB to throw for 350 yards, 5 TDs and no interceptions in a game. He was the first Giants rookie QB to throw 5 TDs in a game. He is one of only three rookie QBs with 4 TDs in three games. The others were Tarkenton and Watson (didn't people on here think trading for Watson was a good idea?).

He had the most passing yards and TDs by a Giant rookie QB. The 12 straight games with a TD tied Manning's record. He broke that in the first game of 2020.

Jones may or may not be a really good QB over his career, but to say his rookie year was ordinary at best is just wrong.
Daniel Jones actually fumbled the ball 6 times  
cosmicj : 4/5/2021 8:51 am : link
In his last 6 games. Let’s get the facts straight, please. It’s correct that he improved and threw fewer INTs, with just 1 in those 6 games. At one point, he had thrown 150 straight passes without a pick, so that’s absolutely a sign of progress.
Am I the only one...  
Johnny5 : 4/5/2021 9:11 am : link
... that doesn't see Canty's comments as that horrible? He didn't really attack the guy he just said there's no way to say with conviction that he's the guy at this point?

Thx Capt. Obvious. WTF is Mara supposed to say? Yeah uh, I like Daniel a lot as a person but we just don't know if he's the guy yet.

Ugh I remember the Eli back and forth driving me crazy but this shit with Jones every single day over and over is driving me nuts.

RE: Am I the only one...  
UConn4523 : 4/5/2021 9:12 am : link
In comment 15209522 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
... that doesn't see Canty's comments as that horrible? He didn't really attack the guy he just said there's no way to say with conviction that he's the guy at this point?

Thx Capt. Obvious. WTF is Mara supposed to say? Yeah uh, I like Daniel a lot as a person but we just don't know if he's the guy yet.

Ugh I remember the Eli back and forth driving me crazy but this shit with Jones every single day over and over is driving me nuts.


That's where I'm at. Canty's comments are fine but so are Mara's. Much to do about nothing, IMO.
i swear  
djm : 4/5/2021 9:30 am : link
people turn into dumb fucking idiots when it comes to sports talk.

No one "expects" multiple titles from anyone. What Mara was trying to convey to the world of stupid, was he liked Jones. He thinks Jones is worth the time and effort.

Canty is a moron too.
Jones  
MotownGIANTS : 4/5/2021 9:30 am : link
does have the some things to prove. They are upgrading his supporting cast so there should not be any excuses. Though a hedge on the OL would be ideal. Not only did the try to give him more weapons and a new security blank. They upgraded the deal as well.


Now in regards to Jones TOs ... he improved to me in my eyes if if you take away 6 volleyball INTs and give them to the guy that deserves his numbers are 11:4.Yes his TDs went down but assess him and the situation properly his #1 weapon has stone hands. His vet elder statesmen is done with a fork in his back. Slayton did not take his next step. Shep is a good sloy guy now playing out of position when he does play. We all know about the OL. Jones cut down on the fumbles, finally started having better ball protection technique and again less picks. All with a defunct run game until the latter portion of the season and it was never a put extra defenders in the box ground game, (Again SB's presence on the field makes the O better).

Jones should play a lot better a full off-season couple years in the system and the additions mentioned above. Mara's assessment is not that far off Jones has the **potential** no question. Can he put it together? As we know in pro sports a big part is desire and commmittment. That is suppose to be his biggest asset. How many times have we seen a situation or organization ruin a guy?

They are righting the ship and if Jones does flop this year or shows that the potential just can't be capped properly. The D should be complete, the O loaded with weapons, and a young improving OL...you go wholesale on getting a proven product as the QB.
actually no  
djm : 4/5/2021 9:32 am : link
Canty isn't a moron. He just knows how the sports talk world works. It's fed by the vapors of hysterics and hot takes. Fans lap it up.
RE: This thread is like a who's who of dupes  
djm : 4/5/2021 9:35 am : link
In comment 15209402 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Anyway I see the silly comparisons to Eli are continuing.


If you allow for the slight leap that last year was essentially a pumped up rookie year for Jones, the comparison isn't silly at all.

Not sure why we can't treat 2020 as a developmental year for Jones. It most definitely was, in every single sense.

Any other team. Any other QB. Year 2, but year 1 with an entirely new staff, plus the covid crap, BBI would be saying it was a developmental year. I have no doubts.
RE: RE: This thread is like a who's who of dupes  
Scooter185 : 4/5/2021 9:59 am : link
In comment 15209559 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 15209402 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


Anyway I see the silly comparisons to Eli are continuing.



If you allow for the slight leap that last year was essentially a pumped up rookie year for Jones, the comparison isn't silly at all.

Not sure why we can't treat 2020 as a developmental year for Jones. It most definitely was, in every single sense.

Any other team. Any other QB. Year 2, but year 1 with an entirely new staff, plus the covid crap, BBI would be saying it was a developmental year. I have no doubts.


I disagree, if Jones was picked by another team at #6 and put up identical numbers, BBI would mock the ever living hell out of that team
The truth is this perception WILL continue  
David B. : 4/5/2021 10:03 am : link
Until Jones cleans up the fumbling issue. The fact that he DID cut down on them won't matter.

He could throw 40 TDs and 15 pics and if he's still fumbling, people who aren't Giants fans will point to the fumbling.

And to a degree, rightly so. He needs to clean that up so he's in the normal range of fumbling for QBs, and the Giant need to help him do that by protecting him better with better OLs.
RE: The truth is this perception WILL continue  
Johnny5 : 4/5/2021 10:17 am : link
In comment 15209602 David B. said:
Quote:
Until Jones cleans up the fumbling issue. The fact that he DID cut down on them won't matter.

He could throw 40 TDs and 15 pics and if he's still fumbling, people who aren't Giants fans will point to the fumbling.

And to a degree, rightly so. He needs to clean that up so he's in the normal range of fumbling for QBs, and the Giant need to help him do that by protecting him better with better OLs.

If Daniel Jones threw 24 TDs again last year with the amount of fumbles he "cut down" to... Every pundit would be talking him up right now. He had the same amount of fumbles as David Carr, one more than Lamar Jackson and Carson Wentz.
RE: Chris Canty has single handedly  
bw in dc : 4/5/2021 10:21 am : link
In comment 15209452 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
ended the Barkley thread and moved it over to his own thread. Selfish prick!


That is very funny. Well played.
RE: RE: RE: This thread is like a who's who of dupes  
djm : 4/5/2021 10:38 am : link
In comment 15209597 Scooter185 said:
Quote:
In comment 15209559 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 15209402 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


Anyway I see the silly comparisons to Eli are continuing.



If you allow for the slight leap that last year was essentially a pumped up rookie year for Jones, the comparison isn't silly at all.

Not sure why we can't treat 2020 as a developmental year for Jones. It most definitely was, in every single sense.

Any other team. Any other QB. Year 2, but year 1 with an entirely new staff, plus the covid crap, BBI would be saying it was a developmental year. I have no doubts.



I disagree, if Jones was picked by another team at #6 and put up identical numbers, BBI would mock the ever living hell out of that team


BBI mocked Doug Pederson all the way to him winning a super bowl. They killed Eli at every turn before super bowl 42. BBI usually laughs first.
LOL  
Johnny5 : 4/5/2021 10:45 am : link
"BBI usually laughs first"

Bahahaha

djm, that was pretty funny.
RE: Greg: I agree that the comparisons to Eli are dumb.  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/5/2021 11:00 am : link
In comment 15209404 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
They also seem to be inescapable. Manning was the Giants’ QB for fifteen years, and Jones’s immediate predecessor. Similarities to Eli are often cited as part of DJ’s appeal to the organization. I think that’s stupid and irrelevant, but it’s not going away.

Eli was a pretty good regular season QB who had two magical playoff runs. His career was unique and bizarre, and probably shouldn’t be used as a yardstick for anyone else, including Daniel Jones. Plus Jones is a completely different player, with both capabilities and limitations that Manning didn’t have. Reporters keep framing the dumb comparisons though, and Mara went down the rabbit hole when he could have just said “Eli was Eli. We want Daniel to be Daniel, not Eli.”

Here's the odd thing about comparing Jones (or anyone else) to Eli, IMO - for all the similarities that Eli and DJ seem to have, the one thing that Jones has not yet demonstrated is the magic in big moments that Eli had. In fairness, Eli hadn't really yet demonstrated that yet at the same stage in his career that Jones is in, so I'm not suggesting that DJ doesn't have that magic, just that we couldn't possibly know yet.

What makes that important, IMO, is that if you take that big game magic away from Eli's resume, his is not a career that anyone would especially want their young QB to emulate. Eli was guilty of too many turnovers, had more than his fair share of bonehead plays, and often felt like a slight notch below the best QBs in the game. But he had those two incredible SB runs, and in those eight games, was the best QB on the planet.

If DJ never displays that same flair for the big stage and elevating his performance in those spots, but otherwise replicates Eli's career exactly, I don't think his career would be considered a success.

And I think something like "clutchiness" (for lack of a better term, stolen from old Fire Joe Morgan posts) is so unpredictable and fluky that you can't just assume that it will be a common trait among two players who seem identical in every other way.

Eli had the "it" factor that made him better than what his overall career record and statistics would suggest. If he had lacked that, the rest of the resume isn't nearly as impressive.

And here's the thing about that "it" factor: most players DON'T have it, which is what made Eli so special. It's far more likely that DJ doesn't have it than it is that he does. And if DJ doesn't have that, it doesn't mean he'll be a failure, but it does mean we should be careful about simply hoping for him to replicate Eli's career.
RE: RE: RE: Hard to argue with Canty...  
Thegratefulhead : 4/5/2021 11:10 am : link
In comment 15209365 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15209349 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 15209340 bw in dc said:


Quote:


since the first two chapters of Jones's career have been ordinary - at best.

Mara, of course, is saying what he should say. But I really wish these Eli comps would just end. They just aren't the same players. Eli has considerably more arm talent and pedigree. Jones is a better athlete and runner.



Last year sucked with a new oline, new OC, no OTAs and no weapons, but he clearly cut back on the fumbles that still needs improving on.
His 1st year was not ordinary. Yes we can harp on the turn overs (especially fumbles) were awful. But he had some really good games and broke some rookie records, didn't he?

This year should let us know, but a certain group has already made up its' mind hasn't it?



We've covered this real estate quite a bit, but, yes, Jones did have some good games his rookie year. But those were offset by some poor moments. Which is to be expected for a rookie. And that showed up in a QBR that was ordinary versus the rest of the league.

And, yes, 2021 is a critical year for sure.

My mind isn't made up, but I wouldn't buy anymore Jones stock. I would suggest one more year of holding the stock.
I will buy some stock because management has invested heavily in this asset. BW, Jones throws an accurate deep and is comfortable throwing to covered receivers because that is all he has know as a professional and college player.I am not projecting a new skill. This is 9ne he has demonstrated consistently. If they get him another weapon, this offense is possibly as efficient as the Rams were with a healthy Gurley a few years ago.
I agree on mocking Jones  
UConn4523 : 4/5/2021 11:18 am : link
if he were elsewhere but the big caveat is that we already do that to most of the non-star QB's anyway. Kirk Cousins had 30+ TD's last year and I'm going to talk about how often he comes up small until proven otherwise. Gauging how good a QB is by the mocking is a funny exercise, nothing more.

Mayfield had a somewhat similar 1st 2 years. He was 12-17 recordwise with 35 INT's and another 13 fumbles. He did not take care of the ball either. TD's were on par the rookie year, the big disparity is the 2nd year TD's.

Year 3 he makes a big jump after upgrading the line and his own maturity and is now a legit QB assuming it wasn't a fluke.
I'm sick of hearing about the turnovers people  
Dave on the UWS : 4/5/2021 11:29 am : link
Eli made some of the dumbest turnovers known to mankind. I want to see Jones run the offense and MAKE PLAYS!!!
RE: Sour grapes...  
Bear vs Shark : 4/5/2021 11:43 am : link
In comment 15209326 '25GiantsPride said:
Quote:
On top of trying to work the NY media market. I remember Eli's first two year's....😵‍💫
This is the absolute worst take, and it should be called out. Just because someone says something critical about the currents Giants squad or players doesn't mean its sour grapes. JFC, I thought we were adults here. People don't need to be such homers.
RE: actually no  
Bear vs Shark : 4/5/2021 11:45 am : link
In comment 15209552 djm said:
Quote:
Canty isn't a moron. He just knows how the sports talk world works. It's fed by the vapors of hysterics and hot takes. Fans lap it up.
Saying that Daniel Jones isn't the guy yet is the opposite of a hot take. It's literally the consensus around the league and a pretty fair take.

Saying he's already shown enough that you can believe he can win multiple titles is the "hot take" in this equation.

RE: RE: Greg: I agree that the comparisons to Eli are dumb.  
Bear vs Shark : 4/5/2021 11:46 am : link
In comment 15209686 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15209404 Big Blue Blogger said:


Quote:


They also seem to be inescapable. Manning was the Giants’ QB for fifteen years, and Jones’s immediate predecessor. Similarities to Eli are often cited as part of DJ’s appeal to the organization. I think that’s stupid and irrelevant, but it’s not going away.

Eli was a pretty good regular season QB who had two magical playoff runs. His career was unique and bizarre, and probably shouldn’t be used as a yardstick for anyone else, including Daniel Jones. Plus Jones is a completely different player, with both capabilities and limitations that Manning didn’t have. Reporters keep framing the dumb comparisons though, and Mara went down the rabbit hole when he could have just said “Eli was Eli. We want Daniel to be Daniel, not Eli.”


Here's the odd thing about comparing Jones (or anyone else) to Eli, IMO - for all the similarities that Eli and DJ seem to have, the one thing that Jones has not yet demonstrated is the magic in big moments that Eli had. In fairness, Eli hadn't really yet demonstrated that yet at the same stage in his career that Jones is in, so I'm not suggesting that DJ doesn't have that magic, just that we couldn't possibly know yet.

What makes that important, IMO, is that if you take that big game magic away from Eli's resume, his is not a career that anyone would especially want their young QB to emulate. Eli was guilty of too many turnovers, had more than his fair share of bonehead plays, and often felt like a slight notch below the best QBs in the game. But he had those two incredible SB runs, and in those eight games, was the best QB on the planet.

If DJ never displays that same flair for the big stage and elevating his performance in those spots, but otherwise replicates Eli's career exactly, I don't think his career would be considered a success.

And I think something like "clutchiness" (for lack of a better term, stolen from old Fire Joe Morgan posts) is so unpredictable and fluky that you can't just assume that it will be a common trait among two players who seem identical in every other way.

Eli had the "it" factor that made him better than what his overall career record and statistics would suggest. If he had lacked that, the rest of the resume isn't nearly as impressive.

And here's the thing about that "it" factor: most players DON'T have it, which is what made Eli so special. It's far more likely that DJ doesn't have it than it is that he does. And if DJ doesn't have that, it doesn't mean he'll be a failure, but it does mean we should be careful about simply hoping for him to replicate Eli's career.
Eli had demonstrated his ability to step up in big spots by his second year. Season Finale in Dallas in 04, and the Denver game in 05 (which was really the coming out party for clutch Eli)
Dunk  
cosmicj : 4/5/2021 11:46 am : link
You are just wrong about Eli not demonstrating results in close games. In his rookie season, he led the team to last minute win over Dallas in the final week of the season. In his second season, he played a revelatory game winning in Denver on a last second throw in Mile High against a terrific season.

Jones unfortunately hasn't showing anything remotely like this.
Bear - I swear  
cosmicj : 4/5/2021 11:47 am : link
we are not the same person.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Hard to argue with Canty...  
bw in dc : 4/5/2021 11:49 am : link
In comment 15209705 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:

We've covered this real estate quite a bit, but, yes, Jones did have some good games his rookie year. But those were offset by some poor moments. Which is to be expected for a rookie. And that showed up in a QBR that was ordinary versus the rest of the league.

And, yes, 2021 is a critical year for sure.

My mind isn't made up, but I wouldn't buy anymore Jones stock. I would suggest one more year of holding the stock.

I will buy some stock because management has invested heavily in this asset. BW, Jones throws an accurate deep and is comfortable throwing to covered receivers because that is all he has know as a professional and college player.I am not projecting a new skill. This is 9ne he has demonstrated consistently. If they get him another weapon, this offense is possibly as efficient as the Rams were with a healthy Gurley a few years ago.


That's a big proclamation saying we are going to be the Rams, circa 2017-18.

Yes, Jones does seem to throw a good deep ball and he's a good runner on the edge. I don't know if the turnovers are just part of his DNA or something that can be coached out of him.

I'm more concerned about his ability to consistently read an NFL defense and his pocket acumen. He may be smart in the academic sense, but I don't trust his football IQ at this point. He doesn't seem that bright on a football field - yet.

And here is what gets missed about Jones - the more video/tape there is on him, the more DCs are going to dictate terms. So Jones is going to have to prove that he can handle the adjustments and execute. That's why I'm with Terps that we should just run Jones more on designed runs and take the risk. He seems to be a big strong guy who can turn the corner. So let's try to milk that...
RE: RE: actually no  
Bill L : 4/5/2021 11:50 am : link
In comment 15209758 Bear vs Shark said:
Quote:
In comment 15209552 djm said:


Quote:


Canty isn't a moron. He just knows how the sports talk world works. It's fed by the vapors of hysterics and hot takes. Fans lap it up.

Saying that Daniel Jones isn't the guy yet is the opposite of a hot take. It's literally the consensus around the league and a pretty fair take.

Saying he's already shown enough that you can believe he can win multiple titles is the "hot take" in this equation.


ESPN, in general, is very down on Jones. Maybe I'm biased but I don't see Jones as a worse QB than what was shown by Jalen Hurts. Can someone objectively (so obviously not Go Terps) convince me that I'm wrong?
RE: I was an Eli laggard  
GManinDC : 4/5/2021 11:54 am : link
In comment 15209448 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
and it wasn't just because of the turnovers it was more because of the bad decisions in general and I felt the offense should be better. Eli was different than Jones. With Eli it was because I felt like the OL while in 2005 when it became solidified they hadn't become yet what they wound up being (a very solid line) they were "good enough" and he had probably the best offensive skill players in my Giants memory

Tiki
Shockey
Burress
Toomer

combine that with a solid line and the offense should be better. You can only blame play calling for so long.

Eli bothered me because of the bad decisions.

It wasn't until the 2007 playoffs that I turned around on Eli and even then sometimes after that the bad decision making still came out, but I learned to appreciate what Eli was trying to do and why he made that decision (some times), but either way the 2007 playoffs gave Eli the benefit of the doubt in my mind.

Will Daniel Jones, who has a much worse OL and much worse skill players than Eli (in year 2 for both of them at least) get the chance to have his "2007 playoffs" for doubters like me?

Not sure, but he has been underwhelming and it may be poor OL, poor skill players, and poor scheme, but he makes poor decisions too and he has not yet earned the benefit of the doubt for me, much like Eli didn't for me until the end of his 4th season.


These are almost my exact same opinions..
I'm not sure anything Canty said is unreasonable...  
lax counsel : 4/5/2021 11:55 am : link
I read it more as, how can anyone say he will be good, we don't know. There is nothing wrong with this statement. The turnovers I can get past, if the qb makes plays to lead a prolific offense. However, like it or not, Jones was objectively one of the least productive qbs in the league last year. One can blame any number of reasons for this, but the fact remains the Giants offense was terrible and did not score points. Jones did not do much to make the offense better. Again, any number of reasons for this.

Can we please also stop with the Eli comparisons, as there is none to be made for multiple reasons (1) They are not at all the same type of qb - Eli had quality arm talent and navigated the pocket very well (even when he was down), also running a quality 2 minute drill while Jones has an average NFL arm and has not shown he can do what Eli did in the pocket or in the 2 minute drill (this are just a few of the differences) (2) Eli was a highly regarded near consensus number 1 pick, who elevated an average Ole Miss team in the always tough SEC, Jones was a moderately productive qb at a non traditional football school, who struggled heavily against better competition and many questioned whether he was even a first round talent (3) the game is completely different today than it was in 2004. There are several other differences. Outside of a similar appearance and demeanor, they are completely different qbs. I'd say Joe Burrow is a better comparison to Eli (navigate the pocket well, sees the field well, not a speedster outside of the pocket, and has a quality NFL arm) than Jones.

We all hope Jones evolves into a top 10 NFL qb, but questioning whether he has the ability and the history as we've seen it is not unreasonable.
RE: Dunk  
Thunderstruck27 : 4/5/2021 12:16 pm : link
In comment 15209761 cosmicj said:
Quote:
You are just wrong about Eli not demonstrating results in close games. In his rookie season, he led the team to last minute win over Dallas in the final week of the season. In his second season, he played a revelatory game winning in Denver on a last second throw in Mile High against a terrific season.

Jones unfortunately hasn't showing anything remotely like this.


In Jones first NFL game he literally carried this team to a win over TB.
i get what he's saying  
ryanmkeane : 4/5/2021 12:18 pm : link
but it's BS to me that he says "i don't know how you can have conviction on the guy"

Conviction on a QB happens way before they even step on the field. Most teams in the NFL have conviction during the draft process and that is how their mind is made up on whether or not he will be the guy. It's an opinion, it isn't base on the results yet.

So, yes, Jones has a ton to prove. But the conviction has always been there from NYF front office and especially Judge now, who actually goes above and beyond anything that DG has said about Jones.
RE: i get what he's saying  
Producer : 4/5/2021 12:23 pm : link
In comment 15209829 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
but it's BS to me that he says "i don't know how you can have conviction on the guy"

Conviction on a QB happens way before they even step on the field. Most teams in the NFL have conviction during the draft process and that is how their mind is made up on whether or not he will be the guy. It's an opinion, it isn't base on the results yet.

So, yes, Jones has a ton to prove. But the conviction has always been there from NYF front office and especially Judge now, who actually goes above and beyond anything that DG has said about Jones.


we don't know what Judge feels about Jones. We only know what he has said.
RE: RE: i get what he's saying  
Bill L : 4/5/2021 12:26 pm : link
In comment 15209836 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15209829 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


but it's BS to me that he says "i don't know how you can have conviction on the guy"

Conviction on a QB happens way before they even step on the field. Most teams in the NFL have conviction during the draft process and that is how their mind is made up on whether or not he will be the guy. It's an opinion, it isn't base on the results yet.

So, yes, Jones has a ton to prove. But the conviction has always been there from NYF front office and especially Judge now, who actually goes above and beyond anything that DG has said about Jones.



we don't know what Judge feels about Jones. We only know what he has said.


Time and time again. With unsolicited praise at almost every turn.

In fact, if you believe, as some of you do, that he is lying about Jones, you must believe that he is lying always and about everything.
RE: RE: RE: i get what he's saying  
Producer : 4/5/2021 12:30 pm : link
In comment 15209837 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 15209836 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15209829 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


but it's BS to me that he says "i don't know how you can have conviction on the guy"

Conviction on a QB happens way before they even step on the field. Most teams in the NFL have conviction during the draft process and that is how their mind is made up on whether or not he will be the guy. It's an opinion, it isn't base on the results yet.

So, yes, Jones has a ton to prove. But the conviction has always been there from NYF front office and especially Judge now, who actually goes above and beyond anything that DG has said about Jones.



we don't know what Judge feels about Jones. We only know what he has said.



Time and time again. With unsolicited praise at almost every turn.

In fact, if you believe, as some of you do, that he is lying about Jones, you must believe that he is lying always and about everything.


Lol.. coaches say what they feel they have to in order to get the best out of the team and keep perceptions up. Period. It's not lying. It's coach-speak. Judge is not your ten year old son talking about who ate the cookies. Get fucking real.
RE: RE: RE: RE: i get what he's saying  
Bill L : 4/5/2021 12:35 pm : link
In comment 15209847 Producer said:
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In comment 15209837 Bill L said:


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In comment 15209836 Producer said:


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In comment 15209829 ryanmkeane said:


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but it's BS to me that he says "i don't know how you can have conviction on the guy"

Conviction on a QB happens way before they even step on the field. Most teams in the NFL have conviction during the draft process and that is how their mind is made up on whether or not he will be the guy. It's an opinion, it isn't base on the results yet.

So, yes, Jones has a ton to prove. But the conviction has always been there from NYF front office and especially Judge now, who actually goes above and beyond anything that DG has said about Jones.



we don't know what Judge feels about Jones. We only know what he has said.



Time and time again. With unsolicited praise at almost every turn.

In fact, if you believe, as some of you do, that he is lying about Jones, you must believe that he is lying always and about everything.



Lol.. coaches say what they feel they have to in order to get the best out of the team and keep perceptions up. Period. It's not lying. It's coach-speak. Judge is not your ten year old son talking about who ate the cookies. Get fucking real.


You totally have never listened to him speak, have you. Or maybe what he says can't get past the words you created for him already in your head.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: i get what he's saying  
Producer : 4/5/2021 12:39 pm : link
In comment 15209855 Bill L said:
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In comment 15209847 Producer said:


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In comment 15209837 Bill L said:


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In comment 15209836 Producer said:


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In comment 15209829 ryanmkeane said:


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but it's BS to me that he says "i don't know how you can have conviction on the guy"

Conviction on a QB happens way before they even step on the field. Most teams in the NFL have conviction during the draft process and that is how their mind is made up on whether or not he will be the guy. It's an opinion, it isn't base on the results yet.

So, yes, Jones has a ton to prove. But the conviction has always been there from NYF front office and especially Judge now, who actually goes above and beyond anything that DG has said about Jones.



we don't know what Judge feels about Jones. We only know what he has said.



Time and time again. With unsolicited praise at almost every turn.

In fact, if you believe, as some of you do, that he is lying about Jones, you must believe that he is lying always and about everything.



Lol.. coaches say what they feel they have to in order to get the best out of the team and keep perceptions up. Period. It's not lying. It's coach-speak. Judge is not your ten year old son talking about who ate the cookies. Get fucking real.



You totally have never listened to him speak, have you. Or maybe what he says can't get past the words you created for him already in your head.


It doesn't matter. You do not know what he says in private and you do not know what he thinks. You only know what he says in public statements. You may never know what he thinks of Jones right now. If Jones wins championships I am sure he will love him. If Jones sucks in 2021 and they ditch him, I am sure Judge was more ambivalent than his public facing statements indicate. If you believe what coaches and GMs say in public facing comments about their players you are gullible. They NEVER or RARELY say their players suck even if they believe it. It is their job to keep morale high and demeaning players hurts their value down the road if you seek to trade them.
mara's statement was fine  
GiantsFan84 : 4/5/2021 12:42 pm : link
i don't think jones is the guy, but they clearly aren't looking at QB this year with where they are picking and with all the needs on this team they shouldn't be trading up right now

so you publicly give your guy a positive spin in the meantime.

the time for a real decision was last year picking with tua and herbert on the clock
RE: mara's statement was fine  
Producer : 4/5/2021 12:44 pm : link
In comment 15209870 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
i don't think jones is the guy, but they clearly aren't looking at QB this year with where they are picking and with all the needs on this team they shouldn't be trading up right now

so you publicly give your guy a positive spin in the meantime.

the time for a real decision was last year picking with tua and herbert on the clock


bingo.. this is a good year too though. But I agree it seems they are fine with Jones this season. I don't necessarily agree with it but it seems to be the case. I think they should still check out the top-5 QBs in case one drops, whcih probably won't happen, or if they fall in love.
RE: Bear - I swear  
Bear vs Shark : 4/5/2021 12:48 pm : link
In comment 15209763 cosmicj said:
Quote:
we are not the same person.
Haha, great minds, right? One thing though -- that Denver game was at Giants Stadium! I was there watching it with my Dad, such a fun regular season game to be at
RE: RE: mara's statement was fine  
Mike in NY : 4/5/2021 12:50 pm : link
In comment 15209880 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15209870 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:


i don't think jones is the guy, but they clearly aren't looking at QB this year with where they are picking and with all the needs on this team they shouldn't be trading up right now

so you publicly give your guy a positive spin in the meantime.

the time for a real decision was last year picking with tua and herbert on the clock



bingo.. this is a good year too though. But I agree it seems they are fine with Jones this season. I don't necessarily agree with it but it seems to be the case. I think they should still check out the top-5 QBs in case one drops, whcih probably won't happen, or if they fall in love.


Considering 5th year option has to be decided after the 2021 season I think the Giants are willing to give him this year with added talent at WR to render a decision. Unless he has a stellar year I could see Giants declining the option because worst case scenario, which would be him breaking out in 2022 not 2021, they can franchise Jones. Similar situation the Jets are facing with Sam Darnold except the Jets are in a position to draft a better QB although he is not without his warts. Why can't Trevor Lawrence be caught with a gas mask?
Producer  
ryanmkeane : 4/5/2021 12:52 pm : link
i'm sorry, but you're not paying enough attention if you think "we don't know how Judge feels about Jones"
I'm sure if judge had the same opinon as he  
Bill L : 4/5/2021 12:57 pm : link
then of course you could take judge's words as gospel truth.
The Irony..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/5/2021 1:17 pm : link
in hearing people speak from the Giants is if they say something flippant, it gets taken as gospel by those looking to bury the speaker. All you need to do is look at the outrage at comments about computer folks, or the latest mantra - that the team wants to play like it is 1935.

Those posters repeat it ad nauseum, they create memes and barrage the board trying to say that it is rampant stupidity that should be evident to anyone with ears and eyes.

But when Judge heaps positive things on the QB, even when unsolicited, it is just coach-speak and shouldn't be listened to.

You really can't make up the fact that one poster who talks about "State of the Giants" addresses by Mara as having a tone of weight, completely dismisses positive news coming out.

And it goes back to the question I always have to those one-sided takes - Why?? It should be a simple answer.
RE: Producer  
Scooter185 : 4/5/2021 1:19 pm : link
In comment 15209900 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
i'm sorry, but you're not paying enough attention if you think "we don't know how Judge feels about Jones"


I agree that it's a bit disingenuousness to chalk up JJs comments to just being "coachspeak" and to say we don't know if he believes in DJ or not.

However, should DJ prove to be more of a liability than an asset, JJs praise this off-season doesn't preclude him from changing course and being ok with bringing in a new QB.
RE: The Irony..  
Producer : 4/5/2021 1:35 pm : link
In comment 15209929 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
in hearing people speak from the Giants is if they say something flippant, it gets taken as gospel by those looking to bury the speaker. All you need to do is look at the outrage at comments about computer folks, or the latest mantra - that the team wants to play like it is 1935.

Those posters repeat it ad nauseum, they create memes and barrage the board trying to say that it is rampant stupidity that should be evident to anyone with ears and eyes.

But when Judge heaps positive things on the QB, even when unsolicited, it is just coach-speak and shouldn't be listened to.

You really can't make up the fact that one poster who talks about "State of the Giants" addresses by Mara as having a tone of weight, completely dismisses positive news coming out.

And it goes back to the question I always have to those one-sided takes - Why?? It should be a simple answer.


Putting aside DG's bad computer joke. I will say you can take negative comments about players more literally than positive comments. Negative comments run counter to the general interest of morale and player valuation. It is more likely the coach means it. Whereas positive comments may just be platitudes. For all we know it is a condition of Judge's employment to be upbeat about Jones.
Scooter  
ryanmkeane : 4/5/2021 1:45 pm : link
absolutely, if Jones doesn't improve, Judge isn't going to stick with him long.

There's a difference between that and saying whole heartedly that you believe in the guy, which they do.
RE: Producer  
cosmicj : 4/5/2021 1:54 pm : link
In comment 15209900 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
i'm sorry, but you're not paying enough attention if you think "we don't know how Judge feels about Jones"
Can you actually make an argument instead of an ad hominem remark here?

Has Judge ever criticized a player by name in a press appearance? Yes or no?

If no, why should we take Judge’s comments at face value?
People continually..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/5/2021 1:56 pm : link
miss a nuance about Judge's remarks on Jones. They have been made proactively. He hasn't been responding to questions where he has to take a stand, he's made the comments without prodding.

Context is important and not recognizing it makes me wonder what the agenda is
RE: People continually..  
Producer : 4/5/2021 2:06 pm : link
In comment 15209979 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
miss a nuance about Judge's remarks on Jones. They have been made proactively. He hasn't been responding to questions where he has to take a stand, he's made the comments without prodding.

Context is important and not recognizing it makes me wonder what the agenda is


I am pretty sure the *agenda* people have on a sports message board is to state their opinions.
What in the world is Canty thinking?? Shouldn’t he just turn a blind  
Jimmy Googs : 4/5/2021 2:08 pm : link
eye to the turnovers and struggles Daniel Jones has had and say he will be fine. Or at the very least just say can we at least him 3rd year before we pass judgment.

Canty obviously has a vendetta against the Giants or doesn’t proudly wear his blue sunglasses as he should in defending all things Giants. Why is simply not plausible to think all the tds from 2019 will come back and the lower turnovers from 2020 will stay.

We should just say Canty was never good on the field or with the sports media and ignore him forever...
The only real problem is that Canty said that Jones  
Thunderstruck27 : 4/5/2021 2:19 pm : link
has shown "nothing"
I mean...Jones can throw in tight windows, has wheels, and hangs tough in the pocket. If he can improve on his fumbles...imo he's shown enough to prove he is every bit as good as Joe Flacco or Trent Dilfer who have both won championships.
RE: The only real problem is that Canty said that Jones  
Producer : 4/5/2021 2:23 pm : link
In comment 15210000 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
has shown "nothing"
I mean...Jones can throw in tight windows, has wheels, and hangs tough in the pocket. If he can improve on his fumbles...imo he's shown enough to prove he is every bit as good as Joe Flacco or Trent Dilfer who have both won championships.


Jones is inaccurate, has lost games due to his inaccuracy on rudimentary throws, and he is easily rattled in the pocket. I am not quite sure what you are watching through those blue tinted glasses.
RE: RE: The only real problem is that Canty said that Jones  
Thunderstruck27 : 4/5/2021 2:29 pm : link
In comment 15210003 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15210000 Thunderstruck27 said:


Quote:


has shown "nothing"
I mean...Jones can throw in tight windows, has wheels, and hangs tough in the pocket. If he can improve on his fumbles...imo he's shown enough to prove he is every bit as good as Joe Flacco or Trent Dilfer who have both won championships.



Jones is inaccurate, has lost games due to his inaccuracy on rudimentary throws, and he is easily rattled in the pocket. I am not quite sure what you are watching through those blue tinted glasses.


Since you've never said a positive thing about Jones, I'll take everything you say with a sea of salt. inaccurate? He has one of the highest rating for throwing the ball into tight spaces. Back up your statement with examples or stats please.
RE: The only real problem is that Canty said that Jones  
lax counsel : 4/5/2021 2:31 pm : link
In comment 15210000 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
has shown "nothing"
I mean...Jones can throw in tight windows, has wheels, and hangs tough in the pocket. If he can improve on his fumbles...imo he's shown enough to prove he is every bit as good as Joe Flacco or Trent Dilfer who have both won championships.


Is Joe Flacco or Trent Dilfer what we hope for in a qb?
RE: RE: RE: The only real problem is that Canty said that Jones  
Producer : 4/5/2021 2:34 pm : link
In comment 15210010 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
In comment 15210003 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15210000 Thunderstruck27 said:


Quote:


has shown "nothing"
I mean...Jones can throw in tight windows, has wheels, and hangs tough in the pocket. If he can improve on his fumbles...imo he's shown enough to prove he is every bit as good as Joe Flacco or Trent Dilfer who have both won championships.



Jones is inaccurate, has lost games due to his inaccuracy on rudimentary throws, and he is easily rattled in the pocket. I am not quite sure what you are watching through those blue tinted glasses.



Since you've never said a positive thing about Jones, I'll take everything you say with a sea of salt. inaccurate? He has one of the highest rating for throwing the ball into tight spaces. Back up your statement with examples or stats please.


Daniel Jones was 31st in completion pct. Does that sound accurate to you? He literally lost two games this season boning two easy throws at the end of the game.
RE: RE: RE: The only real problem is that Canty said that Jones  
Producer : 4/5/2021 2:35 pm : link
In comment 15210010 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
In comment 15210003 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15210000 Thunderstruck27 said:


Quote:


has shown "nothing"
I mean...Jones can throw in tight windows, has wheels, and hangs tough in the pocket. If he can improve on his fumbles...imo he's shown enough to prove he is every bit as good as Joe Flacco or Trent Dilfer who have both won championships.



Jones is inaccurate, has lost games due to his inaccuracy on rudimentary throws, and he is easily rattled in the pocket. I am not quite sure what you are watching through those blue tinted glasses.



Since you've never said a positive thing about Jones, I'll take everything you say with a sea of salt. inaccurate? He has one of the highest rating for throwing the ball into tight spaces. Back up your statement with examples or stats please.


here is something nice, and I have said it before:

1. He has excellent long speed.
2. There is still a chance he could be really good. But not enough of a chance that we shouldn't consider adding a prospect.
Ask Canty  
NYGNYY : 4/5/2021 2:43 pm : link
What he thinks of Haskins who everyone wanted us to take !
RE: Ask Canty  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/5/2021 3:25 pm : link
In comment 15210036 NYGNYY said:
Quote:
What he thinks of Haskins who everyone wanted us to take !

Unless Canty was one of the people who favored Haskins, what would be the point of that?
RE: RE: Ask Canty  
Producer : 4/5/2021 3:36 pm : link
In comment 15210100 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15210036 NYGNYY said:


Quote:


What he thinks of Haskins who everyone wanted us to take !


Unless Canty was one of the people who favored Haskins, what would be the point of that?


hmmm... what could he possibly be implying??
RE: The only real problem is that Canty said that Jones  
MotownGIANTS : 4/5/2021 3:38 pm : link
In comment 15210000 Thunderstruck27 said:
Quote:
has shown "nothing"
I mean...Jones can throw in tight windows, has wheels, and hangs tough in the pocket. If he can improve on his fumbles...imo he's shown enough to prove he is every bit as good as Joe Flacco or Trent Dilfer who have both won championships.


True but in this era they would never win ...
RE: RE: The only real problem is that Canty said that Jones  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/5/2021 3:40 pm : link
In comment 15210121 MotownGIANTS said:
Quote:
In comment 15210000 Thunderstruck27 said:


Quote:


has shown "nothing"
I mean...Jones can throw in tight windows, has wheels, and hangs tough in the pocket. If he can improve on his fumbles...imo he's shown enough to prove he is every bit as good as Joe Flacco or Trent Dilfer who have both won championships.



True but in this era they would never win ...


Huh?? "In this era"?? We almost saw the Niners win in this era with a similar approach. The Broncos did it in Manning's final season.

I have no idea where the impression that every winning team is a superior offense and top defenses aren't winning is coming from.
I think Jones has started to get the turnovers  
Simms11 : 4/5/2021 3:41 pm : link
under control. That said, I have more concerns with his delayed decision making. Hopefully that changes with another year of experience.
RE: Ask Canty  
lax counsel : 4/5/2021 3:42 pm : link
In comment 15210036 NYGNYY said:
Quote:
What he thinks of Haskins who everyone wanted us to take !


Why? Had he said something specifically favoring the selection of Haskins over Jones? Does Haskins flaming out make Jones any better of a selection if he were, to say, last a year or two more and require replacement?
RE: RE: The only real problem is that Canty said that Jones  
Johnny5 : 4/5/2021 3:45 pm : link
In comment 15210121 MotownGIANTS said:
Quote:
In comment 15210000 Thunderstruck27 said:


Quote:


has shown "nothing"
I mean...Jones can throw in tight windows, has wheels, and hangs tough in the pocket. If he can improve on his fumbles...imo he's shown enough to prove he is every bit as good as Joe Flacco or Trent Dilfer who have both won championships.



True but in this era they would never win ...

Says who? You?

Before the previous SB you had Garoppolo and Goff come awfully close to winning in two different years. And prior to that Nick Foles did win one.

RE: I think Jones has started to get the turnovers  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/5/2021 4:12 pm : link
In comment 15210126 Simms11 said:
Quote:
under control. That said, I have more concerns with his delayed decision making. Hopefully that changes with another year of experience.

The problem with the him getting the turnovers under control is that it coincided with his playmaking ability seemingly vanishing as well. Now, there are enough other factors that it's impossible to declare that his playmaking (read: throwing touchdowns) declined BECAUSE he cut down on turnovers, but that remains a possibility until he proves otherwise.

DJ's upside as a playmaker is obvious - he showed plenty in his rookie year, but also turned the ball over way more than is acceptable. And in year two, he made an enormous improvement in the turnover department, but became anemic in the scoring department.

Hopefully, he can figure out how to be an effective QB scoring TDs without putting the ball on the turf quite so often - all he has to do is take the best parts of his first two seasons and combine them. Easier said than done, I suspect, but he's going to get his chance to do it, and he should have a more favorable offense to work with.
I think that the secret to both (playmaking and turnovers)  
Bill L : 4/5/2021 4:16 pm : link
is not so much something inherent in Jones, but some combination of more time in the pocket and better (faster) separation of receivers.
Mara's comment is meaningless  
PaulBlakeTSU : 4/5/2021 4:31 pm : link
"I don't see why he can't..."

He could have said "I don't see why he can't win several MVPs" or "I don't see why he can't make it to Canton" or "I don't see why he can't go down as the greatest QB of all-time." He's not going to put a limit on the kid.

But just because he doesn't see a reason why he can't, doesn't mean that it's likely that he will.

If I were a betting man, I'm betting the under on 2 championships for Daniel Jones. I haven't seen enough from him to say that he's on track to be a star QB. And I think that's what Canty is saying.
Jones will be fine  
csh2z : 4/5/2021 5:14 pm : link
He has plenty of talent. He can make all the throws. Be patient and soon we will be rewarded with a very competitive and competent team to root for. It has been a long time, but I think this year we see some success.
RE: RE: RE: Ask Canty  
NYGNYY : 4/5/2021 9:20 pm : link
In comment 15210118 Producer said:
Quote:
In comment 15210100 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15210036 NYGNYY said:


Quote:


What he thinks of Haskins who everyone wanted us to take !


Unless Canty was one of the people who favored Haskins, what would be the point of that?



hmmm... what could he possibly be implying??



Well Hillary I guess I have to spell it out for you.
Clearly Haskins was preferred over DJ by Most and has been Cut in First Year. I don’t see a little Smirk on his face now like on Draft Day when Giants didn’t Select him.
While DJ played decent with shitty OLine, RB, TE’s and WR’s. Ranking last in the league.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Ask Canty  
Producer : 4/6/2021 8:47 am : link
In comment 15210635 NYGNYY said:
Quote:
In comment 15210118 Producer said:


Quote:


In comment 15210100 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 15210036 NYGNYY said:


Quote:


What he thinks of Haskins who everyone wanted us to take !


Unless Canty was one of the people who favored Haskins, what would be the point of that?



hmmm... what could he possibly be implying??




Well Hillary I guess I have to spell it out for you.
Clearly Haskins was preferred over DJ by Most and has been Cut in First Year. I don’t see a little Smirk on his face now like on Draft Day when Giants didn’t Select him.
While DJ played decent with shitty OLine, RB, TE’s and WR’s. Ranking last in the league.


Thanks for the spelling lesson. And what does that have to do with Chris Canty?
RE: Ask Canty  
Johnny5 : 4/6/2021 10:40 am : link
In comment 15210901 Producer said:
Quote:

Thanks for the spelling lesson. And what does that have to do with Chris Canty?

Canty was one of the (MANY) talking heads really pushing Haskins to the Giants. IIRC he said something like they "should sprint to the podium" lol
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