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Sam Darnold traded

JoeyBigBlue : 4/5/2021 3:58 pm
To the Panthers according to Schefter
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RE: RE: RE: RE: I doubt they are as well...  
UConn4523 : 4/10/2021 4:59 pm : link
In comment 15215921 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15215893 Johnny5 said:


Quote:


That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.



I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?


You’ve gotten the answer so many times. You don’t believe the answers and that’s fine, but those are the reasons. This is basically what I’m getting at when I ask why we keep talking about this stuff. There’s no metric I can point to to change your mind nor am I trying. What are you looking to find out that you don’t already know?

I’m shocked this thread still exists, keep seeing it pop up and wondered why.
Could it be because  
Bill2 : 4/10/2021 5:00 pm : link
he spends 365 x maybe 15 years getting the most from football players and data about football and doing so at the highest level of consequence for getting it right or wrong?

and all the folks on this thread spend a few hours a day arguing badly and without facts without any consequence?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I doubt they are as well...  
dpinzow : 4/10/2021 5:00 pm : link
In comment 15215933 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 15215921 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15215893 Johnny5 said:


Quote:


That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.



I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?


For the reasons we have posted in support of Jones for over 13 pages now in this thread... lol. We shall see. I don't say you are unequivocally wrong, but I believe you are. I have my concerns but again, I am bullish on what I have seen. Think about it this way, if there is even slight incremental improvement in OL play, slight improvement in skill play, slight improvement in RB and TE blocking, slight improvement in Jones timing/pocket awareness, and they scheme to his strengths and away from his weaknesses? How many close games does that put in the victory column? I'd have to think quite a few. But again, I'm optimistic on what I see.


I'm not as bullish as you but Jones deserves the third year to prove he's the guy. I don't believe in unstable quarterback carousels as the way to build a team like Terps. That's what occurs on the other side of MetLife with the Jets and that's the reason why they haven't been in a Super Bowl since Namath played for them in the 60s. There are aspects of Jones' play in his rookie year, when he had Saquon for most of the year, where he was headed for franchise QB status. However, last year was a very difficult situation without Saquon, and I think Jones did what he could, but he definitely took a step back. Now with Golladay, Saquon back, perhaps another receiver drafted high, and another year in charge, Jones sinks or swims and he doesn't have any excuses. Either he shines and leads us to the playoffs or he fails and we have to consider a new QB
RE: RE: RE: RE: I doubt they are as well...  
bw in dc : 4/10/2021 5:01 pm : link
In comment 15215921 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15215893 Johnny5 said:


Quote:


That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.



I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why
would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?


Obviously Judge has sounded very enthusiastic on Judge in pressers. Perhaps you suggesting he's just towing the corporate line?
Ugh...  
bw in dc : 4/10/2021 5:02 pm : link
should be - Jones not Judge...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I doubt they are as well...  
Go Terps : 4/10/2021 5:04 pm : link
In comment 15215936 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15215921 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 15215893 Johnny5 said:


Quote:


That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.



I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?



You’ve gotten the answer so many times. You don’t believe the answers and that’s fine, but those are the reasons. This is basically what I’m getting at when I ask why we keep talking about this stuff. There’s no metric I can point to to change your mind nor am I trying. What are you looking to find out that you don’t already know?

I’m shocked this thread still exists, keep seeing it pop up and wondered why.


And the answer never makes sense.

And I will never understand the whining over that other people post. If you don't like it don't read it.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 4/10/2021 5:04 pm : link
None of us have a clue what JJ thinks of DJ in private. What's he going to do, trash him in the media? Not happening. Jones wasn't a JJ call & odds are that if we tank in '21, DG is gone & who knows about Jones? I hate to sound like a broken record, but the dude has to sink or swim this fall.

Mara's comments a week or so back that he could see DJ winning multiple Super Bowls here were odd & not needed. Sometimes John put his foot in his mouth.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I doubt they are as well...  
Jimmy Googs : 4/10/2021 5:12 pm : link
In comment 15215921 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15215893 Johnny5 said:


Quote:


That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.



I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?


Judge actually may not have a high opinion of all things-Daniel Jones. But he is willing to go another year with him.

But would most certainly agree Judge has a higher opinion of Jones than you. Not a stretch. :-)
My curiosity was piqued  
UConn4523 : 4/10/2021 5:17 pm : link
and first post I saw after days skipping this thread was you asking for why. You’ll never get the answer, I’m sure you know that by now, right?
RE: ...  
dpinzow : 4/10/2021 5:18 pm : link
In comment 15215945 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
None of us have a clue what JJ thinks of DJ in private. What's he going to do, trash him in the media? Not happening. Jones wasn't a JJ call & odds are that if we tank in '21, DG is gone & who knows about Jones? I hate to sound like a broken record, but the dude has to sink or swim this fall.

Mara's comments a week or so back that he could see DJ winning multiple Super Bowls here were odd & not needed. Sometimes John put his foot in his mouth.


I would look for a new QB if Jones fails this year as well, but the idea that Jones doesn't deserve a third year with us and that QBs have to sink or swim as rookies and 2nd year players or they are busts just leads to organizational instability. I agree on Mara's comments, they were silly and needlessly put Jones under more pressure. The Giants gave Phil Simms 6 years to become the guy. Heck, we even gave Dave Brown more time than some people on this board think Jones should get and Dave Brown was one of the worst QB's I've ever seen. He got 3+ years before Fassel switched to Danny Kanell in 1997 for a couple of seasons. Kanell is actually the only QB in 40 years who was given the chance to start a season for us that didn't get extended run since Simms back in the 1980s...
RE: ...  
bw in dc : 4/10/2021 5:19 pm : link
In comment 15215945 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:


Mara's comments a week or so back that he could see DJ winning multiple Super Bowls here were odd & not needed. Sometimes John put his foot in his mouth.


Interesting. I didn't hear it that way. Seemed pretty innocuous to me. Sounded like Mara wanted to publicly give Jones a vote of confidence and that he believed in him.
bw in dc  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 4/10/2021 5:24 pm : link
I think Mara could have given DJ a vote of public confidence without throwing in the multiple Super Bowls line. Just struck me as odd.
RE: My curiosity was piqued  
Go Terps : 4/10/2021 5:29 pm : link
In comment 15215955 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
and first post I saw after days skipping this thread was you asking for why. You’ll never get the answer, I’m sure you know that by now, right?


Of course. And given what we do know, saying that Judge has a high opinion of Jones is a guess based on zero logic. He didn't draft him, so he isn't tied to him politically. In their one year together Jones played very poorly, making the kinds of mistakes that are anethema to someone as detail oriented as Judge.

There are logical reasons why Judge would not be a big buyer of Jones. There are no logical reasons he would be.

And again, this is why retaining Gettleman after hitting Judge was problematic. There is a real possibility of competing agendas causing problems.
RE: My curiosity was piqued  
Jimmy Googs : 4/10/2021 5:30 pm : link
In comment 15215955 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
and first post I saw after days skipping this thread was you asking for why. You’ll never get the answer, I’m sure you know that by now, right?


The never ending fascination with Terps’ posts.

GT you sure can pull em’ in...
RE: bw in dc  
Jimmy Googs : 4/10/2021 5:31 pm : link
In comment 15215960 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I think Mara could have given DJ a vote of public confidence without throwing in the multiple Super Bowls line. Just struck me as odd.


Agree. That whole press conference was odd...
RE: RE: RE: RE: I doubt they are as well...  
jhibb : 4/10/2021 5:35 pm : link
In comment 15215921 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15215893 Johnny5 said:


Quote:


That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.



I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?


Do you think so poorly about Jones that you can't even imagine the possibility that someone with intimate knowledge about his performance - not just the cold hard stats, but how Jones performed during each play given the circumstances of the play around him - could have the opinion that he has what it takes to do great things if put into better situations?

I mean, I agree that we don't really know what Judge thinks (and we shouldn't), but is it so hard for you to imagine that might be the case that you refuse to accept it as an answer?
RE: RE: My curiosity was piqued  
dpinzow : 4/10/2021 5:36 pm : link
In comment 15215967 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15215955 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


and first post I saw after days skipping this thread was you asking for why. You’ll never get the answer, I’m sure you know that by now, right?



The never ending fascination with Terps’ posts.

GT you sure can pull em’ in...


Thankfully George Young and Bill Parcells were in charge of the Giants in 1984 instead of Terps and finally gave Phil Simms the chance to shine when they easily could have gone in a different direction at QB and ended up with zero SBs instead of 2
RE: bw in dc  
bw in dc : 4/10/2021 5:36 pm : link
In comment 15215960 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I think Mara could have given DJ a vote of public confidence without throwing in the multiple Super Bowls line. Just struck me as odd.


But he caveated with "...if we put the right pieces around him".
RE: RE: RE: My curiosity was piqued  
bw in dc : 4/10/2021 5:38 pm : link
In comment 15215975 dpinzow said:
Quote:

Thankfully George Young and Bill Parcells were in charge of the Giants in 1984 instead of Terps and finally gave Phil Simms the chance to shine when they easily could have gone in a different direction at QB and ended up with zero SBs instead of 2


Different football, different eras, different economic models.

Apple to an orange...
RE: RE: My curiosity was piqued  
UConn4523 : 4/10/2021 5:39 pm : link
In comment 15215967 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 15215955 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


and first post I saw after days skipping this thread was you asking for why. You’ll never get the answer, I’m sure you know that by now, right?



The never ending fascination with Terps’ posts.

GT you sure can pull em’ in...


I usually enjoy his posts actually. Some things just are never let gone even when you already know the answer, hence my question.

Speaking of fish, looks like I just reeled you in!
RE: RE: My curiosity was piqued  
jhibb : 4/10/2021 5:42 pm : link
In comment 15215966 Go Terps said:
Quote:

There are logical reasons why Judge would not be a big buyer of Jones. There are no logical reasons he would be.


Sorry, but that's just silly. Of course there are logical reasons he would be. Just because you don't agree with them with the information you have doesn't mean they aren't logical.
Ah, so now Daniel Jones is Phil Simms.  
cosmicj : 4/10/2021 5:42 pm : link
Before he was Eli.

What if he is Tim Couch or Christian Ponder?
RE: Ah, so now Daniel Jones is Phil Simms.  
dpinzow : 4/10/2021 5:45 pm : link
In comment 15215983 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Before he was Eli.

What if he is Tim Couch or Christian Ponder?


We don't know yet, that's the point. That's why we need a third year to see whether it tips one way or the other
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 4/10/2021 5:46 pm : link
Yeah, I don't think we can compare Simms long leash to the leash DJ gets. If Simms was around now & had the same struggles he did in his career, he isn't the starting QB in '86...hell, he might not have even been a Giant come '83 or '84.

Just a different era.
Christian Ponder’s 3rd season was very similar to Daniel Jones’  
cosmicj : 4/10/2021 5:47 pm : link
2020. Thank goodness the Vikings didn’t give up on him after that. They probably wouldn’t have won those Super Bowl trophies if they had.
RE: RE: RE: RE: My curiosity was piqued  
dpinzow : 4/10/2021 5:48 pm : link
In comment 15215977 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15215975 dpinzow said:


Quote:



Thankfully George Young and Bill Parcells were in charge of the Giants in 1984 instead of Terps and finally gave Phil Simms the chance to shine when they easily could have gone in a different direction at QB and ended up with zero SBs instead of 2



Different football, different eras, different economic models.

Apple to an orange...


The Giants considered trading Simms in 1983, which was his 5th season. Simms actually asked for a trade but the Giants couldn't find a buyer. That's how low his stock was back then
RE: ...  
bw in dc : 4/10/2021 5:50 pm : link
In comment 15215990 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Yeah, I don't think we can compare Simms long leash to the leash DJ gets. If Simms was around now & had the same struggles he did in his career, he isn't the starting QB in '86...hell, he might not have even been a Giant come '83 or '84.

Just a different era.


Just a gut feeling, but the way football was played in the '80s, I think a lot of the QBs in that era would have absolutely shined in this era. And, of course, WRs.
RE: RE: RE: My curiosity was piqued  
Jimmy Googs : 4/10/2021 5:50 pm : link
In comment 15215978 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15215967 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 15215955 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


and first post I saw after days skipping this thread was you asking for why. You’ll never get the answer, I’m sure you know that by now, right?



The never ending fascination with Terps’ posts.

GT you sure can pull em’ in...



I usually enjoy his posts actually. Some things just are never let gone even when you already know the answer, hence my question.

Speaking of fish, looks like I just reeled you in!


Not really, just used yours as the example here.

Yours are better when you talk about Tom Brady’s teeth...
Hook. Line.  
UConn4523 : 4/10/2021 5:53 pm : link
Sinker.
RE: ...  
dpinzow : 4/10/2021 5:54 pm : link
In comment 15215990 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
Yeah, I don't think we can compare Simms long leash to the leash DJ gets. If Simms was around now & had the same struggles he did in his career, he isn't the starting QB in '86...hell, he might not have even been a Giant come '83 or '84.

Just a different era.


True, but thank goodness Simms got the long leash in retrospect. In this era the long leash would be 4 years, back then it was 5 or 6. I don't think Jeff Hostetler or Jeff Rutledge would have won the title for us in 1986. The interesting what if is if the Giants gave up on Simms in 1983 and decided to draft Boomer Esiason in 1984. Perhaps we still have similar success because Boomer was a talented QB as well

This is only the 3rd year for Jones and I'm willing to move on from him if he doesn't work out this year. He has to succeed this year or we most likely need to look QB again.
bw in dc.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 4/10/2021 5:55 pm : link
Just a different era in how the game was played & officiated. Over the past year, I've watched some of those '80s games...the product was superior in my opinion. The NFL has become too fantasy football like for my taste, at the expense of true diehards. But all the NFL cares about is the almighty dollar & they keep making dinero hand over fist so...
dpinzow.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 4/10/2021 5:57 pm : link
We are in alignment: this is it for Jones. It's now or never.
Giants history shouldn't inform decisions on Jones  
Go Terps : 4/10/2021 6:02 pm : link
It's just not applicable.
RE: Giants history shouldn't inform decisions on Jones  
UConn4523 : 4/10/2021 6:09 pm : link
In comment 15216026 Go Terps said:
Quote:
It's just not applicable.


I would agree, and I don’t think it is. Judge got less than a year with Jones, even less when you factor in the injury. I think it’s reasonable to want to see him healthy and with some semblance of skill players around him, hopefully with improved line play. Judge isn’t on the hot seat anyway, he can afford to be patient and see how it goes this year and use 2022 to get “his QB” if it doesn’t work out.
RE: Giants history shouldn't inform decisions on Jones  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 4/10/2021 6:10 pm : link
In comment 15216026 Go Terps said:
Quote:
It's just not applicable.


I agree.
.  
Go Terps : 4/10/2021 7:23 pm : link
Interesting point on potentially moving on from Simms and Eli too early...

In 1983 the Giants drafted Terry Kinard over Kelly and More importantly Marino. In 2005 the Giants didn't have a first rounder because they traded it for Eli. If they'd had that first rounder they would have been able to draft Aaron Rodgers.

Marino and Rodgers. Simms and Eli are probably my two favorite Giants ever, but it turned out that they had options to improve over the both of them early.
Obviously hindsight, of course  
Go Terps : 4/10/2021 7:23 pm : link
.
GT...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 4/10/2021 7:27 pm : link
I think the drafting of Simms & Eli turned out to be fine, even if we could have had Marino or Rodgers. All franchises could play that game. Those 2 helped us win 4 Lombardis.

&-for all the bitching we do recently-25 odd fan bases would trade their history for ours.
.  
Scooter185 : 4/10/2021 7:55 pm : link
The crux of this goes back to 2018 when the debate was new QB or SB? The two general trains of thought were 1.) Pick a QB or 2.) Pick SB and wait until 2020 to draft a QB.

If Jones doesn't step up this year and the Giants do have to look for another QB that makes the 18/19/20 first round strategy effectively one giant wet fart, and is a huge step back as a whole for the organization.

That's why those of us who are bearish on Jones want to move on quickly in case that's what happens.
RE: GT...  
Go Terps : 4/10/2021 7:57 pm : link
In comment 15216104 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I think the drafting of Simms & Eli turned out to be fine, even if we could have had Marino or Rodgers. All franchises could play that game. Those 2 helped us win 4 Lombardis.

&-for all the bitching we do recently-25 odd fan bases would trade their history for ours.


Yeah I'm definitely not bitching about either player. I love those guys.
Add in Darnold,s 3rd season  
Carl in CT : 4/10/2021 8:10 pm : link
And how they even got a draft pick (after those first two) is all on rep. This guy has done nothing.
RE: Add in Darnold,s 3rd season  
UConn4523 : 4/10/2021 9:09 pm : link
In comment 15216125 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
And how they even got a draft pick (after those first two) is all on rep. This guy has done nothing.


It goes to show you that NFL teams don’t agree with fans on player value.
RE: RE: Add in Darnold,s 3rd season  
Go Terps : 4/10/2021 9:18 pm : link
In comment 15216171 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15216125 Carl in CT said:


Quote:


And how they even got a draft pick (after those first two) is all on rep. This guy has done nothing.



It goes to show you that NFL teams don’t agree with fans on player value.


That's true, and goes back to what bw said about Jones possibly netting a first round pick. He might be right about that. It's easy to imagine a team that had a high draft grade on him saying "The Giants are a mess and that's why he struggled".

I just want a quarterback that was brought here with Judge's influence and ethos as the primary methodology for doing so.
RE: Add in Darnold,s 3rd season  
bw in dc : 4/11/2021 11:16 am : link
In comment 15216125 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
And how they even got a draft pick (after those first two) is all on rep. This guy has done nothing.


In Darnold's defense, his second half of 2019 was a good showing. I detailed it yesterday. The Jets went 6-2, Darnold had 13/4 TDs/INTs and he ran for 2 TDs. And the YPA was 7.3 and his QBR was 64.

So the narrative at the end of '19 was those last 8 games would be a catalyst for bigger things in '20. Unfortunately for Darnold '20 was a total nightmare.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 4/16/2021 1:43 pm : link
49ers apparently offered the Jets the 12th pick for Darnold a few months ago.
CBS Sports - ( New Window )
RE: ....  
JayBinQueens : 4/16/2021 2:00 pm : link
In comment 15223153 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
49ers apparently offered the Jets the 12th pick for Darnold a few months ago. CBS Sports - ( New Window )

Hilarious if true. I thought I saw other people in the know shooting this down pretty quick though
RE: RE: RE: RE: I doubt they are as well...  
djm : 4/16/2021 3:25 pm : link
In comment 15215921 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 15215893 Johnny5 said:


Quote:


That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.



I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?


How Jones handles himself on and off the field? How he practices? How he looked on tape at Duke? How he played the second half of 2020?

RE: Could it be because  
djm : 4/16/2021 3:30 pm : link
In comment 15215937 Bill2 said:
Quote:
he spends 365 x maybe 15 years getting the most from football players and data about football and doing so at the highest level of consequence for getting it right or wrong?

and all the folks on this thread spend a few hours a day arguing badly and without facts without any consequence?


I love this. We are all guilty of this sometimes, but some here really cannot process that the coaches know more. And not just because the coaches "know" more, but because there is practices. There's the film room.

Why is coach Thibs playing Obi Toppin every game, even for a few minutes? Every fricking PC someone asks him why and every single time he says the same thing--Obi is doing EVERYTHING they want him to in in practice.

Don't ignore practices and how players both perform and respond.

If Jones was an older player he wouldn't get the leash he got. He was in the NFL for a hot minute and some of you were and are lambasting the Giants for sticking with him. Really is odd. Odd is one word to use.

the guy had played like 18 total games, surrounded by one of the least talented offenses in football, with little to no practice time due to covid and an entirely NEW COACHING STAFF!!!

Call that what you will. Excuses...great. I call them facts.
RE: RE: ....  
BrettNYG10 : 4/16/2021 3:31 pm : link
In comment 15223168 JayBinQueens said:
Quote:
In comment 15223153 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


49ers apparently offered the Jets the 12th pick for Darnold a few months ago. CBS Sports - ( New Window )


Hilarious if true. I thought I saw other people in the know shooting this down pretty quick though


I didn't see the refutation, sorry about that. I guess I'm fake news.
RE: RE: Add in Darnold,s 3rd season  
djm : 4/16/2021 3:37 pm : link
In comment 15216428 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 15216125 Carl in CT said:


Quote:


And how they even got a draft pick (after those first two) is all on rep. This guy has done nothing.



In Darnold's defense, his second half of 2019 was a good showing. I detailed it yesterday. The Jets went 6-2, Darnold had 13/4 TDs/INTs and he ran for 2 TDs. And the YPA was 7.3 and his QBR was 64.

So the narrative at the end of '19 was those last 8 games would be a catalyst for bigger things in '20. Unfortunately for Darnold '20 was a total nightmare.


this is the fear with Jones. It's a fair point. Nothing is etched in stone. Just because Jones played better over his last 5-6 games doesn't mean it carries over to 2021. But what does give me encouragement is that everything Jones needs to improve upon is correctable with coaching, and he did improve those traits.

Dave Brown couldn't improve because he couldn't really do anything well. He wasn't very good at reading defenses. Wasn't mobile. Wasn't good at all in the pocket. Didn't posses amazing arm talent. He showed progress in 94 but quickly regressed.

If Jones doesn't show good signs early on in 2021, we should be worried, but the Giants are giving Jones a better shot at success than Brown received here.

there's nothing wrong with being nervous that Jones isn't the goods. But I have a hard time with people lambasting the Giants for sticking with him. Sometimes you have to give the kid some rope and live or die with things. Young players are the backbone of a roster. You live and die with em. If you cut bait at every hiccup, you won't win a thing.
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