As it takes Carolina out of the running for a QB at 8. It also potentially makes the Giants in a favorable position because Chicago suddenly can make a play for 11 in addition to New England.
A 2 and 4 next year is treated as a 3 & 5. So a 3,5,6th is a haul for a player who was the third overall pick? I know it’s better than some thought but still a bust pick.
So, does Carolina ultimately give him a 2nd contract?
but a pretty good return for a player the Jets had no interest in keeping, and it was no secret. Good for the Jets, let's see them turn it into quality picks.
and he will likely play behind a dismal offensive team until 2025 when the Jets trade him because they plan to take a QB again in the top 3.
If I were a Jets fan I would have traded that #2 pick for a haul and given Darnold another year. Stock up on picks, solidify the OL and add another weapon outside. If Darnold stinks then you at least have the benefit of adding 2 more 1st rounders in '22 and '23 and likely another 3rd and they'll still have a top 5 pick in '22 to go QB.
That *also* may signal Carolina, while they still may draft a QB high, is probably not trading up for a QB, or thinks the cost is too high for the value, so this is more of a hedge.
It feels like someone else is going to trade up ahead of Carolina for another QB.
As it takes Carolina out of the running for a QB at 8. It also potentially makes the Giants in a favorable position because Chicago suddenly can make a play for 11 in addition to New England.
But if CAR is not in the running for a QB, doesn't this put pick 8 in play, in an obviously better spot than pick 11?
Seems like it makes the Giants spot (in terms of a trade down) worse if you think CAR is out of the QB market because of Darnold (which I'm not convinced of - at the small price they paid especially)
As it takes Carolina out of the running for a QB at 8. It also potentially makes the Giants in a favorable position because Chicago suddenly can make a play for 11 in addition to New England.
I don't think you can say Carolina is out on drafting a QB. You could say Carolina isn't trading up for one.
As it takes Carolina out of the running for a QB at 8. It also potentially makes the Giants in a favorable position because Chicago suddenly can make a play for 11 in addition to New England.
But if CAR is not in the running for a QB, doesn't this put pick 8 in play, in an obviously better spot than pick 11?
Seems like it makes the Giants spot (in terms of a trade down) worse if you think CAR is out of the QB market because of Darnold (which I'm not convinced of - at the small price they paid especially)
If Carolina isn't going for a QB and you are convinced that Denver won't be either, Dallas won't unless Jerry Jones does something crazy, then that leaves 11 because Philly or Minnesota could go for one. Even if Denver does go for a QB then the Giants are the last spot to get the last 1st Round QB if you want one.
when Jets fans were trashing/mocking NYG for drafting Barkley and subsequently allowing Darnold to fall to the Jets. So many gems.
It would be interesting to find out what Barkley's trade value would be. Even if he's healthy he still might not bring back a 2, 4 and a 6, given that he's a RB.
Gave up very little for a QB that's has shown flashes on the least talented offense in the league.
They try him out for 1 year and can pick up the option if he works out.
It's safe to say we have no clue what Darnold is right now.
amazing how Darnold and Rosen have flamed out of their original teams. So many thought they were the future of the league. QB is a lot more than how well you throw the ball. And for the Jets, there is no guarantee that the next guy will be any better.
This was the big debate and it’s still unclear. I’d probably take Barkley over darnold
if we are talking about a normal Barkley - this is no contest. One has been the rookie of the year and one of the more dynamic offensive players in the entire league when healthy. the other hasn't shown anything.
Gave up very little for a QB that's has shown flashes on the least talented offense in the league.
They try him out for 1 year and can pick up the option if he works out.
It's safe to say we have no clue what Darnold is right now.
The 6th and 5th is whatever, but a 2nd round pick is nothing to sneeze at.
Sam truly truly truly stinks. He cannot play at NFL speed. If they start him he will fail. If they don't start him the trade was a horrible overpay. This will be the second team that was totally wrong about Sam Darnold . The guy stinks.
Who used to post here before each season about how Darnold was going to be a top 5 QB by the end of that season. I wonder if he will do the same for Zach Wilson.
Makes it less likely that 4 or 5 QBs go before us, and one of the WRs drops to us.
I disagree. I think the best case scenario is that Lance (presumably the 5th QB) is there at 11 and NE trades up to our spot yielding 15 and other goodies.
that year and I watched because of all the talk about the Giants. I was never impressed with him. He just didn't have "it". Never inspired any confidence.
Gave up very little for a QB that's has shown flashes on the least talented offense in the league.
They try him out for 1 year and can pick up the option if he works out.
It's safe to say we have no clue what Darnold is right now.
I heard on the radio his option had to be picked up or declined by 5/3 of this year
In comment 15210221 armstead98 said:
Quote:
This was the big debate and it’s still unclear. I’d probably take Barkley over darnold///////
if we are talking about a normal Barkley - this is no contest. One has been the rookie of the year and one of the more dynamic offensive players in the entire league when healthy. the other hasn't shown anything.
I don't know, ryan--as well as to djm's comment at the top--Barkley's injury issues cannot simply be dismissed as non-factors, can they? Look at the purported impact on our seasons.
I wouldn't be crowing about how that draft went down, for either team.
Someone needs to photoshop the Thank You Giants t-shirts on some Nicaraguan kids and get that to me ASAP. I have alot of group texts that could use it.
but it likely means someone that wasn't going to trade into the top 10 for a QB now will. Hard to really know what impact this will have until we see on draft day.
Looks like a deal that works for both teams. Its a really good market for Darnold to go to, NY just wasn't for him.
Gave up very little for a QB that's has shown flashes on the least talented offense in the league.
They try him out for 1 year and can pick up the option if he works out.
It's safe to say we have no clue what Darnold is right now.
Know who he remind me of.....Rick Mirer from Seattle back in the 90s.
but it likely means someone that wasn't going to trade into the top 10 for a QB now will. Hard to really know what impact this will have until we see on draft day.
Looks like a deal that works for both teams. Its a really good market for Darnold to go to, NY just wasn't for him.
This is where I am at, less likely we will trade down now, but have to see how it all plays out.
but it likely means someone that wasn't going to trade into the top 10 for a QB now will. Hard to really know what impact this will have until we see on draft day.
Looks like a deal that works for both teams. Its a really good market for Darnold to go to, NY just wasn't for him.
This is where I am at, less likely we will trade down now, but have to see how it all plays out.
I think it's less likely the Giants trade down regardless. I believe Waddle or Smith will be there at 11 and that's going to be their selection.
I meant 5 QB's hopefully still going in the top 10 to push a player to us. That's still possible now, will depend a lot on what Atlanta does first and foremost and then might snowball from there.
and he will likely play behind a dismal offensive team until 2025 when the Jets trade him because they plan to take a QB again in the top 3.
If I were a Jets fan I would have traded that #2 pick for a haul and given Darnold another year. Stock up on picks, solidify the OL and add another weapon outside. If Darnold stinks then you at least have the benefit of adding 2 more 1st rounders in '22 and '23 and likely another 3rd and they'll still have a top 5 pick in '22 to go QB.
A 2 and 4 next year is treated as a 3 & 5. So a 3,5,6th is a haul for a player who was the third overall pick? I know it’s better than some thought but still a bust pick.
Your looking at it wrong. Where you correctly stated, a 2,4, and 6 is not a haul for the third pick in the draft. Sam D. is no longer the 3rd pick in the draft, he is a former 3rd pick in the draft who has never played at the level expected of someone picked 3rd; basically a sunk cost at this point (possibly a bust). A 2,4,and 6 is certainly a haul for a reclamation project.
has been really down on Teddy. They could still draft a QB and have him sit behind Darnold for a season. Perhaps Fields.
agreed. even though they added Darnold I believe they could still add a QB. Why would Ruhle put all his eggs into a QB who has been a bust thus far. And a QB with such serious flaws.
has been really down on Teddy. They could still draft a QB and have him sit behind Darnold for a season. Perhaps Fields.
agreed. even though they added Darnold I believe they could still add a QB. Why would Ruhle put all his eggs into a QB who has been a bust thus far. And a QB with such serious flaws.
Totally agree. If anything this deal shows they are improving the position, and haven't thrown a ton of resource at it.
I think Darnold can't play in the NFL, the Panthers just got fleeced, and if I'm Rhule, there's no way I'm putting all my eggs in the Darnold basket. I actually thinks this puts Trey Lance, who needs time on the bench, in play for Carolina.
They can start Darnold, see what they have, and if he flops, move on to their #1 pick.
considering Darnold was seeing "ghosts" a year ago.
Look, the guy needs a change of scenery. So maybe Rhule can rehabilitate him.
Unless the Jets get that OL fixed, I wonder if Fields isn't a better fit for them than Wilson...A bigger, stronger, faster athlete with a very good arm as well.
I think Darnold can't play in the NFL, the Panthers just got fleeced, and if I'm Rhule, there's no way I'm putting all my eggs in the Darnold basket. I actually thinks this puts Trey Lance, who needs time on the bench, in play for Carolina.
They can start Darnold, see what they have, and if he flops, move on to their #1 pick.
Exactly. Lance would be a great pick for them, but he's going number 3 to San Fran.
doubt Carolina takes a QB, especially since they just exercised the fifth year option on Darnold. Darnold could stink, but the Jets were terrible, so this is a good gamble by Carolina for a relatively low cost.
But I still think all five QBs go before #11. That will push a player down to us, most likely one of Waddle or Smith. But it reduces the chance of a trade down, since I don't think anyone will trade up for a non-QB.
He did a great quick podcast analysis of Darnold early in the season. It was very instructive.
In it he mentions that Darnold makes occasional plays that make you go wow, that was great. But then he makes just as many mistakes that are so fundamental even high school QBs have mastered them, and it makes you wonder why Darnold hasn't mastered them yet, and if he ever will. Because if he can't master these things, he can't be a successful NFL starter.
In the same podcast he insists that pro QB analysts can judge a QB regardless of his context, because they are looking at concise, repeatable actions and moments. Which is why the mantra on here that we can't judge Jones based on what has already happened is bunk. But that's another story.
If anyone has an interest in this Cosell podcast appearance I can find it pretty easily and link it here.
you should think everyone in the league knows Darnold has this problem, so I think it is unlikely Carolina is settled on Darnold as an answer. They know he has this flaw and it is too risky not to consider other options.
doubt Carolina takes a QB, especially since they just exercised the fifth year option on Darnold. Darnold could stink, but the Jets were terrible, so this is a good gamble by Carolina for a relatively low cost.
I agree. My bet is they try to upgrade the parts around Darnold to give him the best chance to succeed.
Because that would be a tough sell to the fan base - assuming Tepper cares about that - drafting a QB after giving up pretty good draft capital to obtain Darnold.
Like us with Jones and Barkley, Darnold is going to need a healthy CMac.
But a decent haul for somebody that was out of picture anyway.
Better for our trade down chances. 1 less team in top 10 looking for a QB.
1 maybe drops to us & NE & Chi look to jump up.
Btw, I don’t think Atl takes a QB just yet. 1 can hope.
Panthers Possibilities at No. 8 in my Opinion Now, in Order
1. OT (Sewell or Slater)
2. Trade Down (NE or WFT)
3. Defense (my guess: cornerback)
4. QB (don't think it happens, though, after trading 3 picks and presumably picking up that 18 mil option for Darnold for 2022)
I think the Panthers ultimately go Slater or trade down to a team looking for QB and the top 11 shakes out like this.
1. JAX: Lawrence
2. NYJ: Wilson
3. SF: QB3 TBD
4. ATL/DEN: QB4 TBD (I think a Falcons/Broncos trade is a real possibility, obviously not alone in that assessment).
5. CIN: Sewell or Chase
6. MIA: Chase or Pitts...maybe Sewell but that's option 3
7. DET: Whoever is left from Sewell, Chase, Pitts
8. CAR: Slater or trade down to team for QB5.
9. DEN/ATL: Defense
10. DAL: Defense
11. NYG: Thinking Smith based on previous asshat info on BBI.
has been really down on Teddy. They could still draft a QB and have him sit behind Darnold for a season. Perhaps Fields.
Didn't follow Bridgewater at all in Carolina, but his stats were not too shabby -- 69.1% completion for 3,733 yards. 15 TDs and 11 INTs. 92.1 QB Rating. We've seen worse in NY.
The thing is, and not sure if this is a "problem" or not, but odds are that it will be Waddle sitting there.
So I've been thinking, is Waddle a receiving threat they'd be happy to have over edge or trading back? Not sure.
I agree and my concerns with Waddle, which may be irrational in part, is my own worst case scenario. If we do end up picking him I’m just going to have to suck it up and hope the lower leg injuries don’t hit him.
For both teams. It's bad for Detroit who reportedly wants to trade down from 7, as now teams won't likely feel they need to get ahead of the Panthers at 8 to get whichever QB the Niners pass on. Perhaps Denver could go QB at 9 but I think they give Lock another year, and they still have Rypien and Driskel to evaluate as well.
No idea. Gotta want to trade him first. If he has the kind of season in 2021 where the Giants want to trade him, it's going to be less than what they could get today.
has been really down on Teddy. They could still draft a QB and have him sit behind Darnold for a season. Perhaps Fields.
Didn't follow Bridgewater at all in Carolina, but his stats were not too shabby -- 69.1% completion for 3,733 yards. 15 TDs and 11 INTs. 92.1 QB Rating. We've seen worse in NY.
Will be really interesting to see where Bridgewater lands. NFL.com article I read seemed to indicate Carolina will trade him rather than keep him around to backup Darnold.
Seems like Teddy could be redundant in Chicago (Dalton) and NE (Cam). Staying in the NFCS may be the thing for him. Maybe ATL as a "bridge" between Ryan and a TBD young qb? Back to NO to jump into the fray with Taysom and Jameis? Not much backing up Brady in TB, so how about there.
& I believe the Jets Twitter reposted that or whatever. What a loser organization. I hope Darnold succeeds in Carolina; he seems like a good dude from all I've seen of him & would love for him to stick it to the Jets if he has some success.
RE: One of Pitts, Waddle or Smith will be there for GMEN
The thing is, and not sure if this is a "problem" or not, but odds are that it will be Waddle sitting there.
So I've been thinking, is Waddle a receiving threat they'd be happy to have over edge or trading back? Not sure.
In some ways, Waddle is the ideal complement to Golladay. His injury history is what concerns me, not his value on the field.
Of the three passcatchers you mention (and I wish I could be as confident as you that one will be available), Pitts is the surest thing (with both the highest upside and highest floor), but the poorest fit in terms of complementing the other pieces on the 2021 roster.
RE: RE: One of Pitts, Waddle or Smith will be there for GMEN
The thing is, and not sure if this is a "problem" or not, but odds are that it will be Waddle sitting there.
So I've been thinking, is Waddle a receiving threat they'd be happy to have over edge or trading back? Not sure.
In some ways, Waddle is the ideal complement to Golladay. His injury history is what concerns me, not his value on the field.
Of the three passcatchers you mention (and I wish I could be as confident as you that one will be available), Pitts is the surest thing (with both the highest upside and highest floor), but the poorest fit in terms of complementing the other pieces on the 2021 roster.
Pretty sure the math on one of them being there is solid. Is it possible one is not? Sure.
I see it as 5 QBs + Sewell + Chase + Surtain
Only 4 QBs may go, but there's also the chance another corner and/or Parsons goes top 10.
No idea. Gotta want to trade him first. If he has the kind of season in 2021 where the Giants want to trade him, it's going to be less than what they could get today.
I can't believe I'm writing this, but if the Jets can land a two for Darnold (plus the four and six) we might be able to get a one for Jones.
I know it's purely academic, but I would take a first rounder in a second for Jones.
Unless there is a conviction that any of Lance, Fields or Mac Jones is significantly better than Jones, I just don’t see the point making that move now.
Lance is likely going at 3 & Fields likely will be gone.
No idea. Gotta want to trade him first. If he has the kind of season in 2021 where the Giants want to trade him, it's going to be less than what they could get today.
I can't believe I'm writing this, but if the Jets can land a two for Darnold (plus the four and six) we might be able to get a one for Jones.
I know it's purely academic, but I would take a first rounder in a second for Jones.
It's purely stupid.
Jones hasn't shown enough to be considered a sure thing franchise QB.
But unless you're looking through the a biased/pessimistic lens, which we know you and others are, he's shown enough to deserve another opportunity. He seems to have all the intangibles and his teammates and coaches love him. He needs improvement but can we stop pretending he brings nothing to the table?
RE: RE: RE: One of Pitts, Waddle or Smith will be there for GMEN
The thing is, and not sure if this is a "problem" or not, but odds are that it will be Waddle sitting there.
So I've been thinking, is Waddle a receiving threat they'd be happy to have over edge or trading back? Not sure.
In some ways, Waddle is the ideal complement to Golladay. His injury history is what concerns me, not his value on the field.
Of the three passcatchers you mention (and I wish I could be as confident as you that one will be available), Pitts is the surest thing (with both the highest upside and highest floor), but the poorest fit in terms of complementing the other pieces on the 2021 roster.
Pretty sure the math on one of them being there is solid. Is it possible one is not? Sure.
I see it as 5 QBs + Sewell + Chase + Surtain
Only 4 QBs may go, but there's also the chance another corner and/or Parsons goes top 10.
Even if only 4 QBs go, you add Pitts to the definites and you are left with Smith and Waddle at 8.
4 QBs, + Sewell + Chase + Surtain + Pitts.
Dal is definitely not going WR, so that still leaves Smith/Waddle for the Giants at 11. It all depends on if Surtain is really top 10, before Dal. Not so sure about that.
No idea. Gotta want to trade him first. If he has the kind of season in 2021 where the Giants want to trade him, it's going to be less than what they could get today.
I can't believe I'm writing this, but if the Jets can land a two for Darnold (plus the four and six) we might be able to get a one for Jones.
I know it's purely academic, but I would take a first rounder in a second for Jones.
It's purely stupid.
Jones hasn't shown enough to be considered a sure thing franchise QB.
But unless you're looking through the a biased/pessimistic lens, which we know you and others are, he's shown enough to deserve another opportunity. He seems to have all the intangibles and his teammates and coaches love him. He needs improvement but can we stop pretending he brings nothing to the table?
It didn't cross your mind for a minute or two that if the Jets could fetch a second for Darnold what we could get for Jones?
I'm not suggesting Jones doesn't bring anything to the table - I've said he has an appealing deep and he has the ability to get on the edge on designed runs for real positive yardage - but the bigger question that needs to be answered is does Jones bring enough to the table. Which is basically the design of this year with all of the upgrades on offense.
Unless there is a conviction that any of Lance, Fields or Mac Jones is significantly better than Jones, I just don’t see the point making that move now.
Lance is likely going at 3 & Fields likely will be gone.
It's just a passing thought since the Jets got much more than I thought for Darnold. I would have guess, at best, a third for Darnold. To get a package of a two, four and six is pretty damn good...
No idea. Gotta want to trade him first. If he has the kind of season in 2021 where the Giants want to trade him, it's going to be less than what they could get today.
I can't believe I'm writing this, but if the Jets can land a two for Darnold (plus the four and six) we might be able to get a one for Jones.
I know it's purely academic, but I would take a first rounder in a second for Jones.
It's purely stupid.
Jones hasn't shown enough to be considered a sure thing franchise QB.
But unless you're looking through the a biased/pessimistic lens, which we know you and others are, he's shown enough to deserve another opportunity. He seems to have all the intangibles and his teammates and coaches love him. He needs improvement but can we stop pretending he brings nothing to the table?
It didn't cross your mind for a minute or two that if the Jets could fetch a second for Darnold what we could get for Jones?
I'm not suggesting Jones doesn't bring anything to the table - I've said he has an appealing deep and he has the ability to get on the edge on designed runs for real positive yardage - but the bigger question that needs to be answered is does Jones bring enough to the table. Which is basically the design of this year with all of the upgrades on offense.
Honestly? No.
Today the only thought that crossed my mind on Jones was how great I thought it was to hear that he’s organizing throwing sessions with his teammates out in Arizona and that he has a real sense of leadership and maturity to be heading into only his 3rd season.
Unless there is a conviction that any of Lance, Fields or Mac Jones is significantly better than Jones, I just don’t see the point making that move now.
Lance is likely going at 3 & Fields likely will be gone.
It's just a passing thought since the Jets got much more than I thought for Darnold. I would have guess, at best, a third for Darnold. To get a package of a two, four and six is pretty damn good...
What's the point of getting a package of 2, 4, 6 if you aren't confident you'll get a QB better than Jones? We still don't have a good idea of Jones's ceiling or floor.
I think Darnold can't play in the NFL, the Panthers just got fleeced, and if I'm Rhule, there's no way I'm putting all my eggs in the Darnold basket. I actually thinks this puts Trey Lance, who needs time on the bench, in play for Carolina.
They can start Darnold, see what they have, and if he flops, move on to their #1 pick.
I seriously doubt it. Rhule isn't trading away all those picks for a backup QB, then invest another 1st rd pick in a QB.
It's just a passing thought since the Jets got much more than I thought for Darnold. I would have guess, at best, a third for Darnold. To get a package of a two, four and six is pretty damn good...
What's the point of getting a package of 2, 4, 6 if you aren't confident you'll get a QB better than Jones? We still don't have a good idea of Jones's ceiling or floor.
I'm suggesting we could likely get a first for Jones after the Jets got a second for Darnold.
So I'm just spit-balling here so give me some rope, but if we could get a first rounder for Jones - say the Bears gave us their 20th pick - we could have some nice draft capital to package the 11th and 20th to move up to nab one of these talented guys this year.
Because I think the big four in this draft - Lawrence, Fields, Wilson, and Lance - are much more talented than Jones.
Obviously the Giants aren't going to give up on Jones. But there are interesting reasons to say they should cut bait, and draft a more talented QB.
has been really down on Teddy. They could still draft a QB and have him sit behind Darnold for a season. Perhaps Fields.
Didn't follow Bridgewater at all in Carolina, but his stats were not too shabby -- 69.1% completion for 3,733 yards. 15 TDs and 11 INTs. 92.1 QB Rating. We've seen worse in NY.
Will be really interesting to see where Bridgewater lands. NFL.com article I read seemed to indicate Carolina will trade him rather than keep him around to backup Darnold.
Seems like Teddy could be redundant in Chicago (Dalton) and NE (Cam). Staying in the NFCS may be the thing for him. Maybe ATL as a "bridge" between Ryan and a TBD young qb? Back to NO to jump into the fray with Taysom and Jameis? Not much backing up Brady in TB, so how about there.
Other than that, to PIT in case Ben breaks down?
Another Bridgewater option may be Denver.
RE: How early does the pick need to be in Rd 1 before you would consider
I don't get the line of thought that this was a good deal. Maybe in terms of just how much Darnold sucks "at this point in time" it is. However they traded up to then spend the 3rd pick in Rd 1 on this guy just 3 years ago. Now they walk away with a 2nd, 4th, and 6th, plus they have to "reboot" the whole QB "use the #3 pick thing" all again. In a sense they wasted 3 years for what, a 2nd rd pick next year?
No wonder Jets fans are irate.
RE: After thinking about this I think the Jets are a disaster
I don't get the line of thought that this was a good deal. Maybe in terms of just how much Darnold sucks "at this point in time" it is. However they traded up to then spend the 3rd pick in Rd 1 on this guy just 3 years ago. Now they walk away with a 2nd, 4th, and 6th, plus they have to "reboot" the whole QB "use the #3 pick thing" all again. In a sense they wasted 3 years for what, a 2nd rd pick next year?
No wonder Jets fans are irate.
It's not good, but if they find a stud QB this draft, none of it will matter.
RE: RE: How early does the pick need to be in Rd 1 before you would consider
dealing Jones per the above post? Or does any pick in Rd 1 work?
I'm not suggesting it. I was referring to people here continually bashing Jones and now suggesting they could get a #1 for him.
Let me try to slow this down for you.
I'm not saying I would give up a first for Jones. But the market just might because a team gave up a 2,4 and 6 for Ghost Darnold. So why would it be such a leap to think we could possibly - amazingly - get a first for Jones?
I hope that helps add color to your world.
RE: RE: RE: How early does the pick need to be in Rd 1 before you would consider
dealing Jones per the above post? Or does any pick in Rd 1 work?
I'm not suggesting it. I was referring to people here continually bashing Jones and now suggesting they could get a #1 for him.
Let me try to slow this down for you.
I'm not saying I would give up a first for Jones. But the market just might because a team gave up a 2,4 and 6 for Ghost Darnold. So why would it be such a leap to think we could possibly - amazingly - get a first for Jones?
I hope that helps add color to your world.
I don't think we can get a first for Jones.
RE: RE: RE: RE: How early does the pick need to be in Rd 1 before you would consider
dealing Jones per the above post? Or does any pick in Rd 1 work?
I'm not suggesting it. I was referring to people here continually bashing Jones and now suggesting they could get a #1 for him.
Let me try to slow this down for you.
I'm not saying I would give up a first for Jones. But the market just might because a team gave up a 2,4 and 6 for Ghost Darnold. So why would it be such a leap to think we could possibly - amazingly - get a first for Jones?
I hope that helps add color to your world.
I don't think we can get a first for Jones.
Who asked?
RE: RE: RE: RE: How early does the pick need to be in Rd 1 before you would consider
I don't get the line of thought that this was a good deal. Maybe in terms of just how much Darnold sucks "at this point in time" it is. However they traded up to then spend the 3rd pick in Rd 1 on this guy just 3 years ago. Now they walk away with a 2nd, 4th, and 6th, plus they have to "reboot" the whole QB "use the #3 pick thing" all again. In a sense they wasted 3 years for what, a 2nd rd pick next year?
No wonder Jets fans are irate.
Are Jet fans irate? friends have seemed to like the trade.
They take a QB at 2.. You then have another 1st, a 2nd and 2 3rds this year and then 2 firsts and 2 seconds next year. Not a bad amount of quality picks to build around him
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: How early does the pick need to be in Rd 1 before you would consider
dealing Jones per the above post? Or does any pick in Rd 1 work?
I'm not suggesting it. I was referring to people here continually bashing Jones and now suggesting they could get a #1 for him.
Let me try to slow this down for you.
I'm not saying I would give up a first for Jones. But the market just might because a team gave up a 2,4 and 6 for Ghost Darnold. So why would it be such a leap to think we could possibly - amazingly - get a first for Jones?
I hope that helps add color to your world.
I don't think we can get a first for Jones.
T
Who asked?
I did...why?
RE: RE: After thinking about this I think the Jets are a disaster
I don't get the line of thought that this was a good deal. Maybe in terms of just how much Darnold sucks "at this point in time" it is. However they traded up to then spend the 3rd pick in Rd 1 on this guy just 3 years ago. Now they walk away with a 2nd, 4th, and 6th, plus they have to "reboot" the whole QB "use the #3 pick thing" all again. In a sense they wasted 3 years for what, a 2nd rd pick next year?
No wonder Jets fans are irate.
Are Jet fans irate? friends have seemed to like the trade.
They take a QB at 2.. You then have another 1st, a 2nd and 2 3rds this year and then 2 firsts and 2 seconds next year. Not a bad amount of quality picks to build around him
seriously. some Giants fans on here fantasize that Jets fans are in a constant state of hellish agony. I think they have reason for optimism. I used to root actively against the Jets. Now I am just indifferent.
He did a great quick podcast analysis of Darnold early in the season. It was very instructive.
In it he mentions that Darnold makes occasional plays that make you go wow, that was great. But then he makes just as many mistakes that are so fundamental even high school QBs have mastered them, and it makes you wonder why Darnold hasn't mastered them yet, and if he ever will. Because if he can't master these things, he can't be a successful NFL starter.
In the same podcast he insists that pro QB analysts can judge a QB regardless of his context, because they are looking at concise, repeatable actions and moments. Which is why the mantra on here that we can't judge Jones based on what has already happened is bunk. But that's another story.
If anyone has an interest in this Cosell podcast appearance I can find it pretty easily and link it here.
Bunk? Bullshit. Jones was displaying bad decision making and he was indecisive, he was holding the ball too long through the first 7-8 games of 2020. And then he played much better through the final 8 games. As usual, this is ignored by you and a few others around here.
Again, no one doubts that Jones was struggling first half of 2020. Shit even Judge alluded to this.
He did a great quick podcast analysis of Darnold early in the season. It was very instructive.
In it he mentions that Darnold makes occasional plays that make you go wow, that was great. But then he makes just as many mistakes that are so fundamental even high school QBs have mastered them, and it makes you wonder why Darnold hasn't mastered them yet, and if he ever will. Because if he can't master these things, he can't be a successful NFL starter.
In the same podcast he insists that pro QB analysts can judge a QB regardless of his context, because they are looking at concise, repeatable actions and moments. Which is why the mantra on here that we can't judge Jones based on what has already happened is bunk. But that's another story.
If anyone has an interest in this Cosell podcast appearance I can find it pretty easily and link it here.
Bunk? Bullshit. Jones was displaying bad decision making and he was indecisive, he was holding the ball too long through the first 7-8 games of 2020. And then he played much better through the final 8 games. As usual, this is ignored by you and a few others around here.
Again, no one doubts that Jones was struggling first half of 2020. Shit even Judge alluded to this.
Yea they reigned him in and instead of turning the ball over, an improvement, he couldn't move the offense, a set back. I don't think by the end of the year Jones looked very good at all. His game resembled Brock Osweiler's.
He did a great quick podcast analysis of Darnold early in the season. It was very instructive.
In it he mentions that Darnold makes occasional plays that make you go wow, that was great. But then he makes just as many mistakes that are so fundamental even high school QBs have mastered them, and it makes you wonder why Darnold hasn't mastered them yet, and if he ever will. Because if he can't master these things, he can't be a successful NFL starter.
In the same podcast he insists that pro QB analysts can judge a QB regardless of his context, because they are looking at concise, repeatable actions and moments. Which is why the mantra on here that we can't judge Jones based on what has already happened is bunk. But that's another story.
If anyone has an interest in this Cosell podcast appearance I can find it pretty easily and link it here.
Bunk? Bullshit. Jones was displaying bad decision making and he was indecisive, he was holding the ball too long through the first 7-8 games of 2020. And then he played much better through the final 8 games. As usual, this is ignored by you and a few others around here.
Again, no one doubts that Jones was struggling first half of 2020. Shit even Judge alluded to this.
Yea they reigned him in and instead of turning the ball over, an improvement, he couldn't move the offense, a set back. I don't think by the end of the year Jones looked very good at all. His game resembled Brock Osweiler's.
Ok. That's a laughable comparison but whatever works for you. Watch the Skins, Philly and Dallas games again. You need to if that's the comparison you came up with.
RE: RE: After thinking about this I think the Jets are a disaster
I don't get the line of thought that this was a good deal. Maybe in terms of just how much Darnold sucks "at this point in time" it is. However they traded up to then spend the 3rd pick in Rd 1 on this guy just 3 years ago. Now they walk away with a 2nd, 4th, and 6th, plus they have to "reboot" the whole QB "use the #3 pick thing" all again. In a sense they wasted 3 years for what, a 2nd rd pick next year?
No wonder Jets fans are irate.
Are Jet fans irate? friends have seemed to like the trade.
They take a QB at 2.. You then have another 1st, a 2nd and 2 3rds this year and then 2 firsts and 2 seconds next year. Not a bad amount of quality picks to build around him
I know plenty of Jets fans, including my brother, who are not happy for all the reasons I listed above. If this was the Giants many here would likely be ripping the organization. Its been a terrible 3 years for them. Just because they have some picks lined up moving forward doesn't relieve them of the horrible past and present. Plus these are picks, who knows how they turn out.
Yes Jets fans are not happy on wasting all this time on Darnold, and only getting a 2nd next year (the other picks came from other places). Plus remember they traded up to get him.
RE: How early does the pick need to be in Rd 1 before you would consider
because the front office was obviously done with him. So they committed to that belief and moved him for as much as they could get. They didn't draft him. What it cost to trade for him doesn't matter anymore. Sunk cost. If they didn't believe him Darnold you have to move him.
I mean anyone could make this trade. Doesn't take amazing foresight or talent to trade a struggling QB for decent draft capital.
This is all roses and sunshine for the Jets. Cleaning house is always easy, the hard part is building the team back up again and actually winning. Jets need to nail the QB pick. They usually fuck it up. I'd be nervous about picking a QB that feasted on lousy teams but some of those kids translate to the pros. Time will tell.
They traded three 2nd round picks to move up 3 spots and draft Sam Darnold #3 overall.
So they gave up a 1st and three 2nd round picks on a QB that is no longer on the roster three years later, and in return got a 2nd, 4th, and 6th and have no QB.
Oh, but I guess they are forward thinking and not afraid to cut ties. Oh, and THIS TIME they'll get it right considering their long history of successful drafting.
Massive failure.
RE: RE: RE: After thinking about this I think the Jets are a disaster
I don't get the line of thought that this was a good deal. Maybe in terms of just how much Darnold sucks "at this point in time" it is. However they traded up to then spend the 3rd pick in Rd 1 on this guy just 3 years ago. Now they walk away with a 2nd, 4th, and 6th, plus they have to "reboot" the whole QB "use the #3 pick thing" all again. In a sense they wasted 3 years for what, a 2nd rd pick next year?
No wonder Jets fans are irate.
Are Jet fans irate? friends have seemed to like the trade.
They take a QB at 2.. You then have another 1st, a 2nd and 2 3rds this year and then 2 firsts and 2 seconds next year. Not a bad amount of quality picks to build around him
I know plenty of Jets fans, including my brother, who are not happy for all the reasons I listed above. If this was the Giants many here would likely be ripping the organization. Its been a terrible 3 years for them. Just because they have some picks lined up moving forward doesn't relieve them of the horrible past and present. Plus these are picks, who knows how they turn out.
Yes Jets fans are not happy on wasting all this time on Darnold, and only getting a 2nd next year (the other picks came from other places). Plus remember they traded up to get him.
There's probably a split between Jet fans; those who think Sam can still turn it around with a better supporting cast, and those who accepted his time with the Jets were done.
Those in the former camp are probably annoyed and those in the later camp are happy.
The organization clearly doesn't think Sam is the answer so they can't just keep him because they gave up draft picks to get him a few years ago
If the Giants have to do this with Daniel Jones next offseason
They traded three 2nd round picks to move up 3 spots and draft Sam Darnold #3 overall.
So they gave up a 1st and three 2nd round picks on a QB that is no longer on the roster three years later, and in return got a 2nd, 4th, and 6th and have no QB.
Oh, but I guess they are forward thinking and not afraid to cut ties. Oh, and THIS TIME they'll get it right considering their long history of successful drafting.
Massive failure.
+1
Jets don’t get any credit for realizing and moving on from Darnold
unless you're trying to hammer a square peg in a round hole.
As far as the Giants, I'm assuming you're talking about the Giants with that statement, recognizing failure and moving on from a pick or free agent signing is in fact a good thing.
However, I cannot recall any Giants where such a high stakes player was cut, as in top 5 pick that we traded multiple future draft picks to go get. Maybe you can refresh my memory to to a similar situation. Even if Saquon was cut (which would be bad enough even though I don't envision it happening), he's still just a single draft pick. We did not trade multiple future picks to go get him.
Josh Rosen would be a comparable failure in Arizona....
extending any more monies and made a clean break. Expensive picking him in the first place but when you have conviction on a guy, you are supposed to do that kind of thing.
do people want to give kudos for recognizing a mistake and pivoting quickly as if the mistake is fixed when it isn't?
This was strangely repeatedly brought up when the Cards drafted Murray and when the Redskins released Haskins. Where are the Skins now? With an aging QB who doesn't have a single playoff appearance
What I don't get is that the same people talking about moving from mistakes quickly as a positive, kill the Giants for every misstep.
RE: It may or may not have been a necessary evil....
do people want to give kudos for recognizing a mistake and pivoting quickly as if the mistake is fixed when it isn't?
This was strangely repeatedly brought up when the Cards drafted Murray and when the Redskins released Haskins. Where are the Skins now? With an aging QB who doesn't have a single playoff appearance
What I don't get is that the same people talking about moving from mistakes quickly as a positive, kill the Giants for every misstep.
What you don’t get is it’s actually the opposite...
RE: RE: RE: It may or may not have been a necessary evil....
do people want to give kudos for recognizing a mistake and pivoting quickly as if the mistake is fixed when it isn't?
This was strangely repeatedly brought up when the Cards drafted Murray and when the Redskins released Haskins. Where are the Skins now? With an aging QB who doesn't have a single playoff appearance
What I don't get is that the same people talking about moving from mistakes quickly as a positive, kill the Giants for every misstep.
What you don’t get is it’s actually the opposite...
LOL. Jimmy Clownshoes. The guy who referenced Jonathan Stewart daily. Sure, Chief.
The front offices that made the Rosen/Darnold trades were different than the ones that made the picks. It's much easier to admit someone else's mistakes than your own.
I think the Jets got a decent haul for a guy who was going to be a backup for them this year. The Darnold experience was horrid for the Jets.
do people want to give kudos for recognizing a mistake and pivoting quickly as if the mistake is fixed when it isn't?
This was strangely repeatedly brought up when the Cards drafted Murray and when the Redskins released Haskins. Where are the Skins now? With an aging QB who doesn't have a single playoff appearance
What I don't get is that the same people talking about moving from mistakes quickly as a positive, kill the Giants for every misstep.
What you don’t get is it’s actually the opposite...
LOL. Jimmy Clownshoes. The guy who referenced Jonathan Stewart daily. Sure, Chief.
What are babbling about? Folks like you on the site often would defend that DG made some bad mistakes but realized it and got out of them early versus prior regimes. These weren’t his critics making this statement.
And the only clown laughing out loud seemingly is you today...
RE: If the Giants have to do this with Daniel Jones next offseason
The failure is the pick, and then bending over backwards to try to make the pick work. Trading Jones (or Darnold) isn't the failure; it's the end of the error.
The Jets are about to start another rookie QB contract with a really talented prospect - they're a year ahead of us in the cycle.
RE: RE: RE: How early does the pick need to be in Rd 1 before you would consider
dealing Jones per the above post? Or does any pick in Rd 1 work?
I'm not suggesting it. I was referring to people here continually bashing Jones and now suggesting they could get a #1 for him.
Let me try to slow this down for you.
I'm not saying I would give up a first for Jones. But the market just might because a team gave up a 2,4 and 6 for Ghost Darnold. So why would it be such a leap to think we could possibly - amazingly - get a first for Jones?
I hope that helps add color to your world.
Darnold was a more coveted prospect than Jones. Not saying better, but I am think many feel he is the better prospect. I am not among them. I was never for Darnold.
RE: RE: If the Giants have to do this with Daniel Jones next offseason
The failure is the pick, and then bending over backwards to try to make the pick work. Trading Jones (or Darnold) isn't the failure; it's the end of the error.
The Jets are about to start another rookie QB contract with a really talented prospect - they're a year ahead of us in the cycle.
Why can't they design an offense for the strengths of Jones like the Ravens did for Jackson. Had Jackson been put in a drop back rhythm offense he would have been a hot mess. Jones throws an accurate deep ball passes and they got him players that can do that. Let's see how this plays out, no? You are not the least bit excited?
Why is it OK to completely design an offense for Jackson but getting Jones players is bending over backwards?
The answer seems obvious.
Jackson was your guy and Jones was not your guy.
Not a great look.
RE: RE: If the Giants have to do this with Daniel Jones next offseason
The failure is the pick, and then bending over backwards to try to make the pick work. Trading Jones (or Darnold) isn't the failure; it's the end of the error.
The Jets are about to start another rookie QB contract with a really talented prospect - they're a year ahead of us in the cycle.
WTF are you even talking about anymore? A year ahead of us in what cycle?
I'm not saying I would give up a first for Jones. But the market just might because a team gave up a 2,4 and 6 for Ghost Darnold. So why would it be such a leap to think we could possibly - amazingly - get a first for Jones?
I hope that helps add color to your world.
Darnold was a more coveted prospect than Jones. Not saying better, but I am think many feel he is the better prospect. I am not among them. I was never for Darnold.
I understand Darnold went 3rd overall compared to Jones at the 6th pick the following year. But using actual performance in the NFL, to date, Darnold is one of the few QBs that Jones looks fairly competent against...
So if you put more credibility on that, which would seem like the right thing to do, Jones would seem more valuable on the market. Just look at Darnold's performance over his three years. They are pretty ugly. Now, he's had some flashes - the second half of '19 - but that's really it as a high mark.
grateful - I'm not especially excited, no. A deep ball target for Jones hasn't been the problem. The problem has been a combination of:
1. Poor OL - this has not been solved; if anything the line looks like it will be thinner
2. Poor pocket presence from Jones
3. A scheme that doesn't utilize what Jones does well, and actually seems to be designed to have him make plays from the pocket
Chris684 - the Jets moved on from their QB mistake this year. I expect we'll be doing that next year. That's what I'm talking about.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: How early does the pick need to be in Rd 1 before you would consider
I'm not saying I would give up a first for Jones. But the market just might because a team gave up a 2,4 and 6 for Ghost Darnold. So why would it be such a leap to think we could possibly - amazingly - get a first for Jones?
I hope that helps add color to your world.
Darnold was a more coveted prospect than Jones. Not saying better, but I am think many feel he is the better prospect. I am not among them. I was never for Darnold.
I understand Darnold went 3rd overall compared to Jones at the 6th pick the following year. But using actual performance in the NFL, to date, Darnold is one of the few QBs that Jones looks fairly competent against...
So if you put more credibility on that, which would seem like the right thing to do, Jones would seem more valuable on the market. Just look at Darnold's performance over his three years. They are pretty ugly. Now, he's had some flashes - the second half of '19 - but that's really it as a high mark.
We are splitting hairs. People were shocked Jones went 6th and many expected Darnold to go one. That said, I see where you are going. I don't know that Jones has put up more than Darnold. I say equal or tiny bit less on a trade for Jones....today. I think Jones is going to have a very good year in 2021. I think it will be the case of good coaching. They looked at what Jones could do well and went and got him complimentary players, and they are not done. That is is just good coaching, it isn't bending over backwards to force a pick like Terps said in another thread. It is what a good coach and team should do.
grateful - I'm not especially excited, no. A deep ball target for Jones hasn't been the problem. The problem has been a combination of:
1. Poor OL - this has not been solved; if anything the line looks like it will be thinner
2. Poor pocket presence from Jones
3. A scheme that doesn't utilize what Jones does well, and actually seems to be designed to have him make plays from the pocket
Chris684 - the Jets moved on from their QB mistake this year. I expect we'll be doing that next year. That's what I'm talking about.
We get to see this year. I disagree with you. What I can promise is that if Jones stinks it up in 2021, I will not make excuses. This is the year. Unlike most on BBI I am inclined to admit mistakes.
You have painted yourself into a corner. DG's legacy is tied to Jones. If Jones has a good year, DG stays and will be given credit. You are going to become the BBI whipping boy forever if that happens.
I'm not worried about a spot I may or may not be in. I call it like I see it. I've said some unpopular things here in the past; been right on some, been wrong on others.
But right now the burden of proof is on Jones. He has been terrible for two years. That's objectively true, no matter how many excuses people want to make for him.
He'll be better in 2021 than he was in 2020, but that's only because it's next to impossible to be worse than he was. Given the low standards around here I expect even a minimal improvement will be hailed as a great success.
his legacy is that the Giants can go undefeated next year and still be a sub .500 team under his watch. He's been a bigger disaster for this organization than Ray Handley.
his legacy is that the Giants can go undefeated next year and still be a sub .500 team under his watch. He's been a bigger disaster for this organization than Ray Handley.
grateful - I'm not especially excited, no. A deep ball target for Jones hasn't been the problem. The problem has been a combination of:
1. Poor OL - this has not been solved; if anything the line looks like it will be thinner
2. Poor pocket presence from Jones
3. A scheme that doesn't utilize what Jones does well, and actually seems to be designed to have him make plays from the pocket
Chris684 - the Jets moved on from their QB mistake this year. I expect we'll be doing that next year. That's what I'm talking about.
We get to see this year. I disagree with you. What I can promise is that if Jones stinks it up in 2021, I will not make excuses. This is the year. Unlike most on BBI I am inclined to admit mistakes.
You have painted yourself into a corner. DG's legacy is tied to Jones. If Jones has a good year, DG stays and will be given credit. You are going to become the BBI whipping boy forever if that happens.
I have not read thru this but I do not agree that DJ has been "terrible" for the two years he has been here.
I would agree with other ways of describing his performance, such as, tentative, slow to get rid of ball, needs to improve ball security, inconsistent...
I would agree the jury is still out, but "terrible" is over-stating his level of performance.
I don't want to get in trouble for talking about Jones again.
I think this is a good trade for the Jets. They're in a good spot to build around Wilson, who I think is a really good prospect. I'd be excited if I were them.
his legacy is that the Giants can go undefeated next year and still be a sub .500 team under his watch. He's been a bigger disaster for this organization than Ray Handley.
Sorry, but no one is going to give a fuck about his early record if he got the QB right and you know this. The longer they stay the more they have a chance to change the narrative. Your motivation jumps off the page. You want to be right about this badly. Don't even try to deny it, you will look foolish.
I thought after 3 years DG deserved to be let go.
I stand by that.
They didn't because they liked they way he worked with Judge.
The Giants did not do what I felt was best for the organization.
I came to forums and expressed my disappointment.
After that.
I let it go.
Whether I was right or wrong about DG or Jones is meaningless.
Terrible is a bit strong. He hasn't been great, but he hasn't been terrible either. He's been eh...
I agree with that. The optimists among us see promise and are bullish that with better and more stable OL play, better blocking from TE and RB spots, more weapons, and a second year with the coaching staff will pay big dividends with him. It's really as simple as that.
Otherwise...
I aint burying him yet though. He has shown me enough to be optimistic.
We can all agree that this is going to be a big big year for the Giants franchise. If they suck and lose double digit games again, you’d expect for the GM to be fired and the QB to be replaced. It’s going to an uphill climb for the GM as a lot of these contracts start really hitting the cap (Leonard Williams, Golloday, Jackson, Bradberry, and Martinez). Let’s hope we progress in the right direction. I’m confident with Judge at the helm.
to see how these highly drafted QB's do in future years. Darnold is 23 years old. Eli came to the Giants at 23. So much turnover in the HC ranks and it seems everyone wants their guy and resetting the Cap situation. Opens up a new avenue for getting a QB.
I think some of these guys who get moved on from will go on and have pretty good careers but time will tell.
I try not to expend too much of my energy anymore in the back and forth of the same arguments day after day after day. I don't know how some of you have the endurance for it, so I'm not going to bother with the semantic debate over the appropriate definition of "terrible".
But I can't let your little nugget of "(DG has) been a bigger disaster for this organization than Ray Handley." slip through without the acknowledgement that it deserves. The breathtaking abject stupidity of this comment made me double check the user name and leads me to believe that you're completely ignorant of history, you're a fool, or you're trolling. I guess I suspect it's the third now. You speak anymore so authoritatively about subjects about which we will never have all the facts, and you veer now into disingenuousness as you clearly have multiple standards that you apply to various personnel and situations. You speak with such confidence that you're right about everything, which is a great attribute I guess except as I remember it your big idea to save the franchise was to draft TJ Hockensen with the 6th pick in the 2019 draft. Would the organization be in a meaningfully better place right now if DG had followed your advice?
Maybe you're too young to remember exactly what Ray Handley did to a team coming off a Super Bowl win with the greatest defensive player in the history of the sport. I guess I gave you too much credit before...
his legacy is that the Giants can go undefeated next year and still be a sub .500 team under his watch. He's been a bigger disaster for this organization than Ray Handley.
Couldn't you have said (and perhaps you did) the same thing when we took Barkley and the Jets took Darnold right after? They were a year ahead of us then, but here we are?
If you keep cutting your QB to be a year ahead in the cycle....
Couldn't you have said (and perhaps you did) the same thing when we took Barkley and the Jets took Darnold right after? They were a year ahead of us then, but here we are?
There's no logic - just unbridled anger.
You have to remember that the clown also thought the Redskins cutting Haskins put them in a better position than us.
And what do they have now? A ragged journeyman who has never played a postseason game. Winning!!
that if your team/record/QB is bad enough that you constantly churn mainly the QB position by putting your top resources into it, isn't possible that you could get caught in an endless loop?
The last time I saw CiP rip someone a new asshole,
was around 15-20 years ago and that person was me. We’ve since become buddies and becoming a father mellowed him a great deal, imv. Until today. It’s safe to say that it takes a lot for CiP to really get po’d..He still has his fastball..Add a tabletop curve as well...:)
are like the old Soviet Union's Five Year Plans: When they don't work you just start over with new "commissars." I don't like reveling in the agony of Jets fans (well, actually I do) but this is the same organization that traded up to draft Mark Sanchez. This appears to be a good deal for Jets only in that they got something for Darnold. If Matt Rhule and the Panthers can do what Gase and the Jets couldn't -- help Darnold become a good starting NFL QB, it just compounds the failure for the Jets. Look out Zack Wilson, something green comes your way.
15-33. The last time it was this bad Hal Holbrook was telling Robert Redford to follow the money. Ray Handley was a dream compared to this. It's so bad now that a win in Seattle to get to 5-7 is the best win in years. Pathetic.
I don't understand the level of Stockholm Syndrome that has gripped some of the posters on this site.
15-33. The last time it was this bad Hal Holbrook was telling Robert Redford to follow the money. Ray Handley was a dream compared to this. It's so bad now that a win in Seattle to get to 5-7 is the best win in years. Pathetic.
I don't understand the level of Stockholm Syndrome that has gripped some of the posters on this site.
with zero ties to the 9-23 Teams that preceded his hiring, not to mention no training camp amidst Covid with a NEW staff..Finished a respectible 5-3 with a one dimensional/one legged QB and the team that NEVER QUIT..
RE: NO, 6-10 after an 0-5 and 1-7 start under a BRAND NEW HC
with zero ties to the 9-23 Teams that preceded his hiring, not to mention no training camp amidst Covid with a NEW staff..Finished a respectible 5-3 with a one dimensional/one legged QB and the team that NEVER QUIT..
does context ever matter to you? Only when it's convenient I would guess.
Ray Handley inherited a super bowl champion and a team that was loaded along the OL, loaded at QB, loaded at RB and possessed enough talent on defense to compete for a division title in 1993, THREE years after RH even took over, same defense except some added Broncos.
DG inherited a fucking disaster of epic proportions. 2017 was so bad, it still shocks me to this day. 2018 was so much better and they went 5-11!! That's HOW BAD 2017 truly was.
You're so anti DG and so hell bent on proving to BBI that you know more than anyone else, you can't be objective.
RE: NO, 6-10 after an 0-5 and 1-7 start under a BRAND NEW HC
with zero ties to the 9-23 Teams that preceded his hiring, not to mention no training camp amidst Covid with a NEW staff..Finished a respectible 5-3 with a one dimensional/one legged QB and the team that NEVER QUIT..
and if you'd just shut off whatever voice is in your head
and accept 2018 for what it was, a transitional year that saw vets traded off at the mid way point, and see 2019 for what it was, the start of a personnel rebuild but still stuck with the bad HC, and then saw 2020 for what it was, the start of everything, maybe you could see that 2021 could bear fruit. Even if it is 1 year too late.
Or, just conjure up 2018 again and again and again.
You would have fired George Young in 1980. You would have kicked Accorsi out in 1999 and again in 2003.
nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
I don't think the book is written on Barkley OR Darnold, yet....
nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
RE: RE: I really fail to see what 2018 means anymore
nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
Amongst disasters for the organization, you all probably right.
does context ever matter to you? Only when it's convenient I would guess.
Ray Handley inherited a super bowl champion and a team that was loaded along the OL, loaded at QB, loaded at RB and possessed enough talent on defense to compete for a division title in 1993, THREE years after RH even took over, same defense except some added Broncos.
DG inherited a fucking disaster of epic proportions. 2017 was so bad, it still shocks me to this day. 2018 was so much better and they went 5-11!! That's HOW BAD 2017 truly was.
You're so anti DG and so hell bent on proving to BBI that you know more than anyone else, you can't be objective.
Yeah, the Giants killed it in 2018. So much better than 2017. Night and day.
The Handley thing was the off season where George Young was basically finished and fucked this franchise for a while. He decided that Bill B would never be a good head coach and would not give him a chance here.
Then, so many of the decisions made by George from that point forward were horrible. If you want to compare track records... George Young from that day forward made more piss poor decisions than most GMs.
He had some bad drafts and even worse... the decisions on free agents and coaches.
that's just it. If a GM has such a conviction on a player that he's all but certain that player is a star in the making, he should most definitely take him barring only a few exceptions. You want to disagree with that line of thinking that's fine, but its a hell of a lot easier to do so sitting on your couch. And all these "insiders" or former GMs saying they would never take a RB at 2-3-4 can go fuck off for all I care. Fournette went 4th. Zeke went 4th. Gurley went pretty high. Those guys weren't picked by bad GMs. MArshall Faulk was a great pick. So was LDT. And if Barkley wasn't hurt last year he'd be the best offensive player on the 2020 NFC east champions.
Love the pick or hate it, picking him is not what dumb GMs do no matter how much you can scream otherwise. The guy's a HOF talent. Enough already.
The Handley thing was the off season where George Young was basically finished and fucked this franchise for a while. He decided that Bill B would never be a good head coach and would not give him a chance here.
Then, so many of the decisions made by George from that point forward were horrible. If you want to compare track records... George Young from that day forward made more piss poor decisions than most GMs.
He had some bad drafts and even worse... the decisions on free agents and coaches.
I thought BB had a affair with one of the secretary's which I could see Young and Mara not liking very much. Young made the mistake with Hampton and I think he struggled with adjusted to the FA market. Lots of the problems were missing on Dave Brown. Had he worked out perhaps things would have gone a bit differently and his later years viewed more favorably.
The Handley thing was the off season where George Young was basically finished and fucked this franchise for a while. He decided that Bill B would never be a good head coach and would not give him a chance here.
Then, so many of the decisions made by George from that point forward were horrible. If you want to compare track records... George Young from that day forward made more piss poor decisions than most GMs.
He had some bad drafts and even worse... the decisions on free agents and coaches.
Yes, that was a tough time. The Cowboys rise during the same period made it even worse.
at least all agree that we want the team to go undefeated.
As an added bonus, we get to see if the guy with the stick shoved up his ass will complain that DG still isn't at .500 yet.
And I'm looking forward to see how you guys rationalize another losing season.
More bullshit. Not one NYG fan here is giving Jones (or DG) a pass if he doesn't show a lot in 2021. But hey, you do you.
Again though, fans that pile on the GM after every loss are fucking dumb. That's sort akin to killing the architect of an airplane when it crashed into the sea due to pilot error, in my book.
Actually the losses really suck. You guys do all seem to look forward to them though. That, or fail to learn.
Either way the rationalizations are good for a laugh.
Fail to learn? yeah ok. I have conjured up numerous examples of a GM that was on the hot seat for X amount of time only to be all but canonized after that same team of his went on to win and win big. Same with QBs. Usually I just hear silence or some platitude that while true, isn't really relevant.
You're going to be proven wrong here because you discount the impact of the HC. That's cool. Everyone needs to learn from things.
You should though since you love to conjure up 2018 and 2019 at every turn.
I don't even care anymore about those years. MAybe they are excuses and maybe DG walked into Mara's office and demanded that ELi be given another year or so (nope) and maybe he insisted on hiring Shurmur despite some better options available (nope nope) --fine, we can agree that DG didn't have a good 2018 campaign, I won't excuse that even if we all know there were, but fine, roast him for 2018.
Can we just look to 21 and see how this thing looks with another year of Judge in the fold and more cohesiveness with the coaching? You act like teams ALWAYS dramatically improve in 2 years time and if not, cut bait. It's not always that simple. Look forward. We might be on to something here. If not, trust me, you're going to get your pound of flesh. I don't think we want that to happen. I know I don't.
is everything. Coach. QB. In that order. Without the HC you might as well be running in circles. Look at the Knicks--and in the NBA talent is king, but Thibs has the Knicks looking like a team again. They were the worst team in the NBA for 4 years running. Same players different results. Did Scott Perry go from idiot to hero because he signed Randle or was he bailed out because a great HC got a hold of Randle and this team and fixed him?
Coaching makes all the difference. Shurmur had an enormous impact on things here.
Djm - nice speech, but I simply asked who is the pilot making errors
15-33. The last time it was this bad Hal Holbrook was telling Robert Redford to follow the money. Ray Handley was a dream compared to this. It's so bad now that a win in Seattle to get to 5-7 is the best win in years. Pathetic.
I don't understand the level of Stockholm Syndrome that has gripped some of the posters on this site.
15-33 was terrible and DG should have been let go based on that performance.
We agree?
He wasn't let go.
You and I can't change that.
They said it was because of the way Judge & worked as a unit.
We can choose to believe that or not.
Their reasoning is irrelevant.
It fucking happened and it is over.
This is our new world.
I could choose to eviscerate everything he does and complain about his past failures incessantly.
I could do that.
I don't, because it is a miserable way to root for a team.
What are you getting out this?
I don't have Stockholm syndrome, if they fired him tomorrow I would throw a fucking party.
Until then, I am going to root for the players on the team and the people coaching them because it is better than expecting them to fail.
RE: Djm - nice speech, but I simply asked who is the pilot making errors
nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
at least all agree that we want the team to go undefeated.
As an added bonus, we get to see if the guy with the stick shoved up his ass will complain that DG still isn't at .500 yet.
And I'm looking forward to see how you guys rationalize another losing season.
I just don't get how you can say that will be the case. There is really nothing to suggest that it would be. I think, as is your wont, your just posting by emotion.
are all time greats. They not only had incredible skills as a RB they had perhaps a trait overlooked. Being available. I don't think Jim Brown ever missed a play in 9 years. Sanders, Dickerson, Emmitt I do not recall missing much time.
Barkley is a unique talent but he needs to be on the field. Jones has had his own injury issues and part of his injuries are his fault imo. It may not be fair but it is part of the evaluation.
RE: RE: RE: I really fail to see what 2018 means anymore
nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
Uh, for the memory challenged (may I suggest Prevagen as a solution), those eras for those RBs were COMPLETELY different to today's brand of football. Those eras were focused on the running game as the primary means to move the football.
JFC...send me your address and I will send you Football for Dummies, BBI edition.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I really fail to see what 2018 means anymore
nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
Uh, for the memory challenged (may I suggest Prevagen as a solution), those eras for those RBs were COMPLETELY different to today's brand of football. Those eras were focused on the running game as the primary means to move the football.
JFC...send me your address and I will send you Football for Dummies, BBI edition.
Firstly, you have my address. Secondly, I’ve seen the book and the beautiful dedication in your honor..
And to your attempt at minimizing the passing game in the
‘60s and ‘70s where they had Namath, Unitas, Tarkenton, Brodie, Jurgenson, Hadl, Stabler, to name some? Even Archie Manning slung it.
How about the ‘80s and ‘90s with Marino, Fouts, Moon, Esiason, Elway and Montana to name some as well? They didn’t sling it either? Maybe they didn’t throw it 40-50 times a game as a rule, but they threw it plenty.
Different era? As though they wouldn’t have drafted Brown, Sanders, Payton, Dickerson et al very high TODAY as well..
You should though since you love to conjure up 2018 and 2019 at every turn.
I don't even care anymore about those years. MAybe they are excuses and maybe DG walked into Mara's office and demanded that ELi be given another year or so (nope) and maybe he insisted on hiring Shurmur despite some better options available (nope nope) --fine, we can agree that DG didn't have a good 2018 campaign, I won't excuse that even if we all know there were, but fine, roast him for 2018.
Can we just look to 21 and see how this thing looks with another year of Judge in the fold and more cohesiveness with the coaching? You act like teams ALWAYS dramatically improve in 2 years time and if not, cut bait. It's not always that simple. Look forward. We might be on to something here. If not, trust me, you're going to get your pound of flesh. I don't think we want that to happen. I know I don't.
No, that's not how any relationship works. You can't just hand wave away the past. If I walked up to you 3 days in a row and punched you in the face, are you going to offer to shake my hand on the 4th day?
DG, and Mara too, deserve no benefit of the doubt for the way this team has been run since DG was hired (and for Mara since TC was fired). Why should we believe that things are just going to magically get better? Certainly JJ is a step in the right direction, but until proven otherwise DGs Giants are a bad team and we should continue to expect them to be bad until he's fired.
As far as cutting bait goes. Kiper was in TMKS today talking about the Darnold trade and he said "I grew up on the era when you used to develop a quarterback. Now of you're not lights out by year three, especially year four, you're getting kicked to the curb."
This can be extrapolated to HCs, GMs, and even other sports. It's produce or get out and give the next guy a try. Patience doesn't exist in pro team sports any more.
RE: And to your attempt at minimizing the passing game in the
‘60s and ‘70s where they had Namath, Unitas, Tarkenton, Brodie, Jurgenson, Hadl, Stabler, to name some? Even Archie Manning slung it.
How about the ‘80s and ‘90s with Marino, Fouts, Moon, Esiason, Elway and Montana to name some as well? They didn’t sling it either? Maybe they didn’t throw it 40-50 times a game as a rule, but they threw it plenty.
Different era? As though they wouldn’t have drafted Brown, Sanders, Payton, Dickerson et al very high TODAY as well..
You should though since you love to conjure up 2018 and 2019 at every turn.
I don't even care anymore about those years. MAybe they are excuses and maybe DG walked into Mara's office and demanded that ELi be given another year or so (nope) and maybe he insisted on hiring Shurmur despite some better options available (nope nope) --fine, we can agree that DG didn't have a good 2018 campaign, I won't excuse that even if we all know there were, but fine, roast him for 2018.
Can we just look to 21 and see how this thing looks with another year of Judge in the fold and more cohesiveness with the coaching? You act like teams ALWAYS dramatically improve in 2 years time and if not, cut bait. It's not always that simple. Look forward. We might be on to something here. If not, trust me, you're going to get your pound of flesh. I don't think we want that to happen. I know I don't.
No, that's not how any relationship works. You can't just hand wave away the past. If I walked up to you 3 days in a row and punched you in the face, are you going to offer to shake my hand on the 4th day?
DG, and Mara too, deserve no benefit of the doubt for the way this team has been run since DG was hired (and for Mara since TC was fired). Why should we believe that things are just going to magically get better? Certainly JJ is a step in the right direction, but until proven otherwise DGs Giants are a bad team and we should continue to expect them to be bad until he's fired.
As far as cutting bait goes. Kiper was in TMKS today talking about the Darnold trade and he said "I grew up on the era when you used to develop a quarterback. Now of you're not lights out by year three, especially year four, you're getting kicked to the curb."
This can be extrapolated to HCs, GMs, and even other sports. It's produce or get out and give the next guy a try. Patience doesn't exist in pro team sports any more.
Quote:
As far as cutting bait goes. Kiper was in TMKS today talking about the Darnold trade and he said "I grew up on the era when you used to develop a quarterback. Now of you're not lights out by year three, especially year four, you're getting kicked to the curb."
This can be extrapolated to HCs, GMs, and even other sports. It's produce or get out and give the next guy a try. Patience doesn't exist in pro team sports any more.
Except after 25 games, many want to do exactly that with Jones..
RE: RE: RE: I really fail to see what 2018 means anymore
nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
it's almost as if the salary cap, positional value, and any knowledge of how teams win in the modern NFL are completely foreign to you.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Who’s the pilot making the errors?
You should though since you love to conjure up 2018 and 2019 at every turn.
I don't even care anymore about those years. MAybe they are excuses and maybe DG walked into Mara's office and demanded that ELi be given another year or so (nope) and maybe he insisted on hiring Shurmur despite some better options available (nope nope) --fine, we can agree that DG didn't have a good 2018 campaign, I won't excuse that even if we all know there were, but fine, roast him for 2018.
Can we just look to 21 and see how this thing looks with another year of Judge in the fold and more cohesiveness with the coaching? You act like teams ALWAYS dramatically improve in 2 years time and if not, cut bait. It's not always that simple. Look forward. We might be on to something here. If not, trust me, you're going to get your pound of flesh. I don't think we want that to happen. I know I don't.
No, that's not how any relationship works. You can't just hand wave away the past. If I walked up to you 3 days in a row and punched you in the face, are you going to offer to shake my hand on the 4th day?
DG, and Mara too, deserve no benefit of the doubt for the way this team has been run since DG was hired (and for Mara since TC was fired). Why should we believe that things are just going to magically get better? Certainly JJ is a step in the right direction, but until proven otherwise DGs Giants are a bad team and we should continue to expect them to be bad until he's fired.
As far as cutting bait goes. Kiper was in TMKS today talking about the Darnold trade and he said "I grew up on the era when you used to develop a quarterback. Now of you're not lights out by year three, especially year four, you're getting kicked to the curb."
This can be extrapolated to HCs, GMs, and even other sports. It's produce or get out and give the next guy a try. Patience doesn't exist in pro team sports any more.
Quote:
As far as cutting bait goes. Kiper was in TMKS today talking about the Darnold trade and he said "I grew up on the era when you used to develop a quarterback. Now of you're not lights out by year three, especially year four, you're getting kicked to the curb."
This can be extrapolated to HCs, GMs, and even other sports. It's produce or get out and give the next guy a try. Patience doesn't exist in pro team sports any more.
Except after 25 games, many want to do exactly that with Jones..
And if the Giants were picking #2 it absolutely should have been considered
RE: RE: RE: RE: I really fail to see what 2018 means anymore
nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
it's almost as if the salary cap, positional value, and any knowledge of how teams win in the modern NFL are completely foreign to you.
Yes, foreign to me..Lawd
RE: And to your attempt at minimizing the passing game in the
‘60s and ‘70s where they had Namath, Unitas, Tarkenton, Brodie, Jurgenson, Hadl, Stabler, to name some? Even Archie Manning slung it.
How about the ‘80s and ‘90s with Marino, Fouts, Moon, Esiason, Elway and Montana to name some as well? They didn’t sling it either? Maybe they didn’t throw it 40-50 times a game as a rule, but they threw it plenty.
Different era? As though they wouldn’t have drafted Brown, Sanders, Payton, Dickerson et al very high TODAY as well..
In today's game? I wouldn't draft any of those RBs in the first round - unless I was a perennial contender (like the Pats, Chiefs, GB, etc) and happened to have an incredibly high pick. I have to be consistent.
Do you really want to compare pass attempts of the '60s, '70s. '80's etc to today's games. I don't even have to look it up and feel pretty damn good that those eras had more rushing attempts than passing attempts for winning teams. That's how teams won back then...
RE: RE: And to your attempt at minimizing the passing game in the
‘60s and ‘70s where they had Namath, Unitas, Tarkenton, Brodie, Jurgenson, Hadl, Stabler, to name some? Even Archie Manning slung it.
How about the ‘80s and ‘90s with Marino, Fouts, Moon, Esiason, Elway and Montana to name some as well? They didn’t sling it either? Maybe they didn’t throw it 40-50 times a game as a rule, but they threw it plenty.
Different era? As though they wouldn’t have drafted Brown, Sanders, Payton, Dickerson et al very high TODAY as well..
In today's game? I wouldn't draft any of those RBs in the first round - unless I was a perennial contender (like the Pats, Chiefs, GB, etc) and happened to have an incredibly high pick. I have to be consistent.
Do you really want to compare pass attempts of the '60s, '70s. '80's etc to today's games. I don't even have to look it up and feel pretty damn good that those eras had more rushing attempts than passing attempts for winning teams. That's how teams won back then...
Look up points production, not rushing vs passing attempts..The ground game was certainly vital, but the passing games from the aforementioned were the difference-makers..
If your contention is that you wouldn’t draft a Jim Brown, Barkley and the OTHERS I mentioned in the first round, then we have nothing more to talk about towards this end
RE: RE: RE: And to your attempt at minimizing the passing game in the
If your contention is that you wouldn’t draft a Jim Brown, Barkley and the OTHERS I mentioned in the first round, then we have nothing more to talk about towards this end
I wouldn't. But it's a silly argument because it wouldn't be based on what we know now about those names (their NFL production) but how they produced in college.
I honestly feel like BB56, FMiC, etc. are better fans than me. Way more commitment to the team, faith in the program, etc.
I'm only 38, so I haven't experienced the lows and highs of many fans. Maybe I don't have perspective or the team doesn't have the good will banked with me like some.
What I see is a three year run with 33 loses under current management. Going back to George Young, the most loses in three years under any GM.
It's not been kind of bad, it's like a once in 40 year storm bad. It's a credibility damaging run, that followed up a credibility damaging run (Rees + McAdoo).
Personally for me, to get me back in the column where I expect the decisions the Giants make to work, it's going to take more than a 6 win season.
Tell me I'm being illogically to be nervous about:
- Daniel Jones leading the in fumbles in consecutive years, coming off a 14 game 11 TD season
- Saquon Barkley coming off a torn ACL, and second consecutive season where injury has dramatically limited his productivity
- An offensive line as of today relying on an UDFA, 5th rounder, 3rd rounder, and a potentially the massively disappointing Nate Solder
If management was getting more things right than wrong, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. But it's not been that way.
do give them the benefit of the doubt because you still watch the games and follow the team.
It's like fans using nice sounding threats like "I'm going to hold them accountable". Cool. How?
There are a few posters who have spent almost every day for the past three years complaining about the GM. And he still sits there. He still makes moves. At some point, you'd think people would glance at a mirror and see that all the gnashing of teeth has given are headaches and ground enamel.
When things are out of your control, a benefit of doubt or accountability really doesn't mean anything at all.
do give them the benefit of the doubt because you still watch the games and follow the team.
It's like fans using nice sounding threats like "I'm going to hold them accountable". Cool. How?
There are a few posters who have spent almost every day for the past three years complaining about the GM. And he still sits there. He still makes moves. At some point, you'd think people would glance at a mirror and see that all the gnashing of teeth has given are headaches and ground enamel.
When things are out of your control, a benefit of doubt or accountability really doesn't mean anything at all.
I don't think there is anything wrong with rooting for a team and at the same time being critical if I think they are pursuing illogical or non-rational moves or strategy.
I think all of us who post on BBI are in the top, top echelon of Giants fans. We're on a freaking message board talking/arguing with-for the most part-strangers about the Giants. I'd wager to guess that means the Giants are quite important to all of us. Calling someone a better fan than others...whatever. Some of us are optimists, some are pessimists, & some are in the middle.
I honestly feel like BB56, FMiC, etc. are better fans than me. Way more commitment to the team, faith in the program, etc.
I'm only 38, so I haven't experienced the lows and highs of many fans. Maybe I don't have perspective or the team doesn't have the good will banked with me like some.
What I see is a three year run with 33 loses under current management. Going back to George Young, the most loses in three years under any GM.
It's not been kind of bad, it's like a once in 40 year storm bad. It's a credibility damaging run, that followed up a credibility damaging run (Rees + McAdoo).
Personally for me, to get me back in the column where I expect the decisions the Giants make to work, it's going to take more than a 6 win season.
Tell me I'm being illogically to be nervous about:
- Daniel Jones leading the in fumbles in consecutive years, coming off a 14 game 11 TD season
- Saquon Barkley coming off a torn ACL, and second consecutive season where injury has dramatically limited his productivity
- An offensive line as of today relying on an UDFA, 5th rounder, 3rd rounder, and a potentially the massively disappointing Nate Solder
If management was getting more things right than wrong, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. But it's not been that way.
It’s not really that. Your narrative about fumbles really applied to his first year. He was much improved in year two. Were his INTs because of Engram’s tips, bad throws? Probably both, but INTs are happening at a pretty good rate around the league. But yeah, he needs to continue to clean things up and not become a headcase over his TOs..That part is on him.
I also felt he was beginning to get comfortable in Garrett’s O (as JG was reacclimating to PC himself) and he was moving the chains quite well until he got hurt. After that, they could tee off on him given that he really couldn’t move all that well..He did surprise me in how well he played in the season finale, given that his mobility was still rather shot..If he was healthy? No wuestion in my mind we win the division with a .500 record. Just an opinion and unprovable. We shall see moving forward.
It’s not that we’re “homers” as posters like to label us; more like, “okay, year 2 under Judge and Garrett, DJ should be more comfortable with his new weapons, a healthy Barkley (fingers crossed),etc.”
Again, I didn’t want DG here and he’s made some headscratching moves at times, but my fanhood is focused on Judge’s team, how well he apparently works with DG and how hard his players have played for him and that DJ deserves some big time slack after only 25 games.
We’re not better fans by any stretch. We’re perhaps more patient, especially since there’s a new sheriff in town and the players seem to have bought into him. Also TBD..
So I will let the naysayers dwell on the 15-33 record. I will dwell on 6-10, not because it’s a good record, that’s not the case. It’s the 0-5 and 1-7 ending with 5-3, that I’m hanging my positive energy on. Years ‘18 and ‘19 mean nothing to me as it’s not germain to our current team, imv. DG I felt had a good draft during JG’s first year (but time will tell) and on paper I like what he’s done in FA..
I am responding in length to you because I KNOW you will hear what I’m saying, whether you agree with me or not..
I once wondered what '64-'81 would have like on BBI. That would have been a dark, dark place. And I guarantee that plane flies over Giants Stadium a helluva lot earlier than after the fiasco vs. the Eagles in '78.
do give them the benefit of the doubt because you still watch the games and follow the team.
It's like fans using nice sounding threats like "I'm going to hold them accountable". Cool. How?
There are a few posters who have spent almost every day for the past three years complaining about the GM. And he still sits there. He still makes moves. At some point, you'd think people would glance at a mirror and see that all the gnashing of teeth has given are headaches and ground enamel.
When things are out of your control, a benefit of doubt or accountability really doesn't mean anything at all.
I vote with my dollars — since 2017 onward I’ve attended fewer than half the games I previously did. I’ve purposefully not spent a dollar on anything team related. The team not being very good and not having the brand popularity in the metro area, was also a big factor in me voting at my former company to not renew agreements or pursue new advertising at the stadium. Those dollars went to some kick ass ads at Yankee Stadium.
There are also posters who have spent the last 3 years defending the moves management has made. And yet the team keeps losing.
If real world world outcomes are the driving factor of what we are and are not allowed to bitch about as fans, then Eric should just close up and retire the site, no?
1. I share concerns about Jones. I am less concerned with fumbling at this point. I worry about the big throws in tight windows at game changing moments. This is the factor that separates the average from someone you can win a championship with.
2. Many great or very good OL’s are built with low picks The Giants very good OL of 2004-10 had a 5th, UDFA, UDFA, 2nd,, 3rd from left to right. Pats are the same and they often let many go. It is the position where you don’t need great measureables. You also can help your cap in this position group.
3. Giants have had a bad run. Dave has missed. People denying this are off base imo. It is really hard to win in the NFL though . Dave is correct with his mantra. Execution has been slow. They are closer than many think imo but Jones will have to take a major step. Overall the Giants have been very good at going the distance the last 35 years in the most competitive division. 10 Super Bowls. It could be a lot worse.
I once wondered what '64-'81 would have like on BBI. That would have been a dark, dark place. And I guarantee that plane flies over Giants Stadium a helluva lot earlier than after the fiasco vs. the Eagles in '78.
It’s not really that. Your narrative about fumbles really applied to his first year. He was much improved in year two. Were his INTs because of Engram’s tips, bad throws? Probably both, but INTs are happening at a pretty good rate around the league. But yeah, he needs to continue to clean things up and not become a headcase over his TOs..That part is on him.
Did you research any of this? Interceptions are down leaguewide each of the last two years. Jones led the league in fumbles (11) in 2020, as he did in 2019 (18)...consider that he didn't play a full 16 games either year. Saying he improved with the fumbles is disingenuous; he was still worst in the league.
The other day someone suggested Jones didn't fumble much in the second half of the season - not true. Where are the self-appointed defenders of the faith to point out these errors? People get pissed at me for being critical; but you won't find me just making stats up.
Also, this may be the third year in a row we've had to hear about second half momentum carrying over into the following season. It never materializes. Besides, I don't know how finishing the season 1-3 in four must-win games is a feather in the cap, but what do I know?
I once wondered what '64-'81 would have like on BBI. That would have been a dark, dark place. And I guarantee that plane flies over Giants Stadium a helluva lot earlier than after the fiasco vs. the Eagles in '78.
Dark because there was no internet?
Bill L, if there was an Internet back then...Haha.
I honestly feel like BB56, FMiC, etc. are better fans than me. Way more commitment to the team, faith in the program, etc.
I'm only 38, so I haven't experienced the lows and highs of many fans. Maybe I don't have perspective or the team doesn't have the good will banked with me like some.
What I see is a three year run with 33 loses under current management. Going back to George Young, the most loses in three years under any GM.
It's not been kind of bad, it's like a once in 40 year storm bad. It's a credibility damaging run, that followed up a credibility damaging run (Rees + McAdoo).
Personally for me, to get me back in the column where I expect the decisions the Giants make to work, it's going to take more than a 6 win season.
Tell me I'm being illogically to be nervous about:
- Daniel Jones leading the in fumbles in consecutive years, coming off a 14 game 11 TD season
- Saquon Barkley coming off a torn ACL, and second consecutive season where injury has dramatically limited his productivity
- An offensive line as of today relying on an UDFA, 5th rounder, 3rd rounder, and a potentially the massively disappointing Nate Solder
If management was getting more things right than wrong, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. But it's not been that way.
Minus the first sentence, this post is great, and I agree with pretty much all of it.
I'm 45, I feel you. I guess let me say, that between 38 and 45, A LOT can change. Football/life. Different perspectives. What's interesting is that BBI is a melting pot of all of these perspectives.
And I also am worried about all three things you mentioned.
nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
Uh, for the memory challenged (may I suggest Prevagen as a solution), those eras for those RBs were COMPLETELY different to today's brand of football. Those eras were focused on the running game as the primary means to move the football.
JFC...send me your address and I will send you Football for Dummies, BBI edition.
Firstly, you have my address. Secondly, I’ve seen the book and the beautiful dedication in your honor..
This was an old school BBI response right here. Strong.
RE: And I also am worried about all three things you mentioned.
do give them the benefit of the doubt because you still watch the games and follow the team.
It's like fans using nice sounding threats like "I'm going to hold them accountable". Cool. How?
There are a few posters who have spent almost every day for the past three years complaining about the GM. And he still sits there. He still makes moves. At some point, you'd think people would glance at a mirror and see that all the gnashing of teeth has given are headaches and ground enamel.
When things are out of your control, a benefit of doubt or accountability really doesn't mean anything at all.
And you likely have spent almost every day for the past three years complaining about posters who complain about the GM.
At some point you’d think you would glance at a mirror too...
If he says to put the helmets on backwards, put them on backwards. I am a complete believer in him.
Where I deviate from some here is I am skeptical as to how much say he has over Jones and Barkley being centerpiece players. He is not connected to their acquisition, and in one year together Jones was bad and Barkley was hurt. If Judge wants to explore moving on from either, I wonder if they would. No way of knowing for sure, I suppose.
If he says to put the helmets on backwards, put them on backwards. I am a complete believer in him.
Where I deviate from some here is I am skeptical as to how much say he has over Jones and Barkley being centerpiece players. He is not connected to their acquisition, and in one year together Jones was bad and Barkley was hurt. If Judge wants to explore moving on from either, I wonder if they would. No way of knowing for sure, I suppose.
And as the wins start coming, so will that power. I already think the ownership, the fan base, and front office might be buying in. And let's not forget how extraordinary the circumstances are for a 39 year old to to have his first NFL head coaching gig in the middle of a pandemic.
If he says to put the helmets on backwards, put them on backwards. I am a complete believer in him.
Where I deviate from some here is I am skeptical as to how much say he has over Jones and Barkley being centerpiece players. He is not connected to their acquisition, and in one year together Jones was bad and Barkley was hurt. If Judge wants to explore moving on from either, I wonder if they would. No way of knowing for sure, I suppose.
I mean besides what he goes out of his way to say over and over again with passion. But other than that, there’s simply no way.
If he says to put the helmets on backwards, put them on backwards. I am a complete believer in him.
Where I deviate from some here is I am skeptical as to how much say he has over Jones and Barkley being centerpiece players. He is not connected to their acquisition, and in one year together Jones was bad and Barkley was hurt. If Judge wants to explore moving on from either, I wonder if they would. No way of knowing for sure, I suppose.
Total guess, but I think JJ has more sway than Gettleman going forward. I think Mara wants him around for awhile & Mara is definitely sensitive to fan opinion & most fans have confidence in Judge than Gettleman, who is up there in age too.
I’m more bullish on the ceiling for Jones and Barkley than some. But I’m very afraid of the floor.
I won’t be surprised if Jones improves a lot next year, and I won’t be surprised if Barkley rounds into shape as the season progresses. But my eyes are wide open about the big hill each has to climb.
I have 100% faith in Judge. Everything about the guy says smart, prepared, thoughtful — and he has great pedigree.
Where I’m skeptical is if the Giants are faced with an unpopular and difficult decision with Jones or Barkley. Will affection, hope, and loyalty be a big factor in their next contract, if health and performance fall short?
I’m more bullish on the ceiling for Jones and Barkley than some. But I’m very afraid of the floor.
I won’t be surprised if Jones improves a lot next year, and I won’t be surprised if Barkley rounds into shape as the season progresses. But my eyes are wide open about the big hill each has to climb.
I have 100% faith in Judge. Everything about the guy says smart, prepared, thoughtful — and he has great pedigree.
Where I’m skeptical is if the Giants are faced with an unpopular and difficult decision with Jones or Barkley. Will affection, hope, and loyalty be a big factor in their next contract, if health and performance fall short?
You may have provided your own answer. If he has great Pedigree (BB and Saban), then he will value “fact” over loyalty and cut ties when necessary, imv
that's just it. If a GM has such a conviction on a player that he's all but certain that player is a star in the making, he should most definitely take him barring only a few exceptions. You want to disagree with that line of thinking that's fine, but its a hell of a lot easier to do so sitting on your couch. And all these "insiders" or former GMs saying they would never take a RB at 2-3-4 can go fuck off for all I care. Fournette went 4th. Zeke went 4th. Gurley went pretty high. Those guys weren't picked by bad GMs. MArshall Faulk was a great pick. So was LDT. And if Barkley wasn't hurt last year he'd be the best offensive player on the 2020 NFC east champions.
Love the pick or hate it, picking him is not what dumb GMs do no matter how much you can scream otherwise. The guy's a HOF talent. Enough already.
Wasn't Tomlinson a 2nd round pick? And Fournette and Gurley are already on their second teams? Didn't Faulk really cement his legacy with his second team? So Zeke is the sample group of ONE that aligns with your position?
I suspect you may have contradicted the point you were trying to make.
I’m more bullish on the ceiling for Jones and Barkley than some. But I’m very afraid of the floor.
I won’t be surprised if Jones improves a lot next year, and I won’t be surprised if Barkley rounds into shape as the season progresses. But my eyes are wide open about the big hill each has to climb.
I have 100% faith in Judge. Everything about the guy says smart, prepared, thoughtful — and he has great pedigree.
Where I’m skeptical is if the Giants are faced with an unpopular and difficult decision with Jones or Barkley. Will affection, hope, and loyalty be a big factor in their next contract, if health and performance fall short?
You may have provided your own answer. If he has great Pedigree (BB and Saban), then he will value “fact” over loyalty and cut ties when necessary, imv
Unless Tomlinson is the case study to inform that shift, we haven't seen it yet.
McAdoo wound up a bumbling fool, but he was right to at least ask to see if the offense would be better/worse/same with another QB. His failure was choosing Geno to be that QB - that he chose the established-but-never-gonna-be-the-future QB as his horse instead of Webb, who many had hopes for, made it clearly a referendum on Eli. And I do think that if we're being fair and leaving sentiment at the door, Eli was up for a referendum at that point, but it was a poor political decision by McAdoo. And these things tend to be political decisions every bit as much as they are football decisions.
So what happens? There is a fan revolt, at least on WFAN, and the team is given back to Eli with McAdoo (and Reese) sent packing. No one messes with the GOAT in East Rutherford, that much is clear.
But everything that followed, with McAdoo and Reese already fired, reeked of loyalty to #10. And I'm not trying to make the case here that such loyalty was unwarranted, but just want to point out that Mara had a reflex reaction to fan outrage that caused him to change course. He had admitted that he approved McAdoo's proposal, but then fired him and Reese a week later when nothing about that dreadful season had changed other than the fan reaction to Eli's benching.
It's a fair question, IMO, to wonder if Mara is capable of ignoring fan sentiment when it comes time to making cold football decisions. Tomlinson may have worn the C patch, but he was never a fan favorite that sold tickets and jerseys and the like. That they let him walk is interesting and perhaps insightful, but I don't think it gives us any sense of how they'll treat Barkley and Jones. The star and the QB exist on a different plane than the blue collar DT, even if the latter was also a team captain. It's just not the same.
that's just it. If a GM has such a conviction on a player that he's all but certain that player is a star in the making, he should most definitely take him barring only a few exceptions. You want to disagree with that line of thinking that's fine, but its a hell of a lot easier to do so sitting on your couch. And all these "insiders" or former GMs saying they would never take a RB at 2-3-4 can go fuck off for all I care. Fournette went 4th. Zeke went 4th. Gurley went pretty high. Those guys weren't picked by bad GMs. MArshall Faulk was a great pick. So was LDT. And if Barkley wasn't hurt last year he'd be the best offensive player on the 2020 NFC east champions.
Love the pick or hate it, picking him is not what dumb GMs do no matter how much you can scream otherwise. The guy's a HOF talent. Enough already.
Wasn't Tomlinson a 2nd round pick? And Fournette and Gurley are already on their second teams? Didn't Faulk really cement his legacy with his second team? So Zeke is the sample group of ONE that aligns with your position?
I suspect you may have contradicted the point you were trying to make.
Just want to correct myself - Tomlinson was most definitely NOT a 2nd round pick. I was confused because Brees was their 2nd round pick in that same draft, and I was thinking about them having had a crazy good draft that year. Talk about a fucking haul - Tomlinson and Brees in the 1st and 2nd rounds and not a single ring to show for it.
I do wonder what would have happened had McAdoo chosen Webb...
Jones throws a GREAT deep ball. A) he fumbles B) OL can’t block C) WR can never get open. If this changes we win a lot of games. Period.
What about the part where he gets flustered in the pocket.
Or where he bones throws to open receivers.
Or where he makes stupid decisions.
Flustered in the pocket? This is where I can't take you seriously. The guy is brave to a FAULT in the pocket, that's where a lot of his first year fumbles came from.
We get it Producer, you hate Daniel Jones. Are you going to keep posting it over, and over, and over, and ov... on every single thread, beating every single thread about it into the ground? I mean HOLY SHIT already with you guys and your irrational Daniel Jones hatred.
because passing on a sure fire HOF talent who checks off boxes that any other prospect in that draft didn't check off, is the right way to build a team, just because I say it is based on some logic that RBs don't carry any value. Never mind that Bill Belichick drafted a RB at least 2 times in round 1 over his Pats tenure, or that Tom Coughlin also drafted a RB at pick 4, or that the Niners have devoted a shit load of resources to the RB position over the last 4-5 years, or that the Browns, a good team these days, have also devoted tons of resources to the RB spot, or all of these teams that spend big FA money at RB and devote high 2nd rounders or mid first rounders, but NOPE! We can't use the 2nd pick! I draw the line there! Sure it is. Keep telling yourself that and use that logic to bash the GM at every turn. Totally fair.
It's an opinion. Doesn't mean it's fact or that we won't see a RB drafted very high again. We will.
That’s a freaking joke. Didn’t happen that much. If it did he probably missed them running for his life. Oh and let’s not forget he does that pretty well.
Engram (4th most drops in NFL) how many were huge drops?, Slayton 6th most drops in NFL. Shall I continue......? Keep the blame on Jones. Jesus.
It's entirely possible that the blame on the supporting cast is Jones's fault, AND vice versa. We'll find out this year with a better offensive group.
Getting defensive about Jones's shortcomings, which are genuine thus far, doesn't advance the conversation at all. Jones needs to play better than he has. And he needs to have better players around him. It's not either/or, IMO.
Jones throws a GREAT deep ball. A) he fumbles B) OL can’t block C) WR can never get open. If this changes we win a lot of games. Period.
What about the part where he gets flustered in the pocket.
Or where he bones throws to open receivers.
Or where he makes stupid decisions.
If you accept the fact that we aren't going to draft your mancrush Trey Lance, will you revisit Jones with fresh eyes this season?
As I have said before, I hope Jones becomes Tom Brady, because I am a Giants fan and I want us to win five Super Bowls in the next ten years. And I have never said that Jones has no chance to become good, or great. I just think it is foolish for this team, any team, to not consider all options given what we have seen from Jones so far. Keep our options open. I think that is smart management.
Jones throws a GREAT deep ball. A) he fumbles B) OL can’t block C) WR can never get open. If this changes we win a lot of games. Period.
What about the part where he gets flustered in the pocket.
Or where he bones throws to open receivers.
Or where he makes stupid decisions.
If you accept the fact that we aren't going to draft your mancrush Trey Lance, will you revisit Jones with fresh eyes this season?
As I have said before, I hope Jones becomes Tom Brady, because I am a Giants fan and I want us to win five Super Bowls in the next ten years. And I have never said that Jones has no chance to become good, or great. I just think it is foolish for this team, any team, to not consider all options given what we have seen from Jones so far. Keep our options open. I think that is smart management.
But they're going to give Jones this year, that much is clear. You should probably reframe your view with that in mind.
Honestly, after Wentz (NDSU) and Trubisky (one legitimate season of tape), I'm not sure why anyone would be so bullish on Lance. At least not to the point where they approach Duke Johnson territory, which is what we're seeing here.
Lance might end up an NFL stud, but the Giants aren't drafting him, for several reasons. It's too bad such a die-hard fan as Producer (🙄) can't see that clearly enough to stop pressing for it.
I've been wondering for a while how important college stats are when assessing quarterback prospects. I've been looking at college stats for first round quarterbacks the last ten years. I haven't looked at every single guy, but so far Jones's are the worst of all of them. And not by a little bit.
I’m more bullish on the ceiling for Jones and Barkley than some. But I’m very afraid of the floor.
I won’t be surprised if Jones improves a lot next year, and I won’t be surprised if Barkley rounds into shape as the season progresses. But my eyes are wide open about the big hill each has to climb.
I have 100% faith in Judge. Everything about the guy says smart, prepared, thoughtful — and he has great pedigree.
Where I’m skeptical is if the Giants are faced with an unpopular and difficult decision with Jones or Barkley. Will affection, hope, and loyalty be a big factor in their next contract, if health and performance fall short?
I think DG is gone if Barkley and Jones don't come through this year. Jones needs the threat of a healthy Barkley. If DG goes because of Jones, the new GM will get a new QB and Barkley wont be extended. I think it will take care of itself.
I've been wondering for a while how important college stats are when assessing quarterback prospects. I've been looking at college stats for first round quarterbacks the last ten years. I haven't looked at every single guy, but so far Jones's are the worst of all of them. And not by a little bit.
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
He did have that one big year at Duke where they wont a lot of games (for duke standards) and he possesses all the traits you look for in a QB.
His stats weren't great, but that one year they were very good and he basically carried a bad duke roster week in week out.
Teams look at how a QB's talents translate to the pro game as much as they look at stats.
Or, the Giants are just fucking stupid and drafted Jones because he talks like Eli. Better?
I’m more bullish on the ceiling for Jones and Barkley than some. But I’m very afraid of the floor.
I won’t be surprised if Jones improves a lot next year, and I won’t be surprised if Barkley rounds into shape as the season progresses. But my eyes are wide open about the big hill each has to climb.
I have 100% faith in Judge. Everything about the guy says smart, prepared, thoughtful — and he has great pedigree.
Where I’m skeptical is if the Giants are faced with an unpopular and difficult decision with Jones or Barkley. Will affection, hope, and loyalty be a big factor in their next contract, if health and performance fall short?
I think DG is gone if Barkley and Jones don't come through this year. Jones needs the threat of a healthy Barkley. If DG goes because of Jones, the new GM will get a new QB and Barkley wont be extended. I think it will take care of itself.
However it plays out, it's very likely that DG's legacy (and job security) are tied to Jones and Barkley, in that order.
I don't particularly like DG as a GM, I think his views on strategy and roster building are outdated, to the extent that they ever had a strategic footprint at all. But I do want the Giants to win again, ASAP. So I'm perfectly fine with reconsidering my concerns about DG if he proves me wrong and the Giants deliver a winning team in 2021.
If not, he's had enough time now. It does need to be winning record or bust for DG this year, IMO. GMs shouldn't get a 5th year if they put up 42+ losses in their first four. We wouldn't pick up a QB's 5th year option in that circumstance, nor should we bring back the GM - building a winner is his job, and he's now fully clear of Reese's shadow and whatever wreck he inherited.
But if he delivers a winning season (and likely the division), I have no problem reconsidering my POV on DG.
had ordinary at best numbers at morehead state. A few others did too in college but I can't remember the names.
At this point, why even bother anymore. He's here. He's been given the keys to make this work in 2021. Giants have a lot of people who have been in the NFL long enough to know a player who is or isn't worth investing in. They like Jones.
If you're implying that no QB or player ever put up better numbers in the PRO game than they did in College, you'll be met with proof that this has in fact happened on numerous occasions.
I've been wondering for a while how important college stats are when assessing quarterback prospects. I've been looking at college stats for first round quarterbacks the last ten years. I haven't looked at every single guy, but so far Jones's are the worst of all of them. And not by a little bit.
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
I would say the most reliable stat from college seems to be the accuracy piece.
But even that needs context. The latest example being Josh Allen, playing for Wyoming with a mediocre OL and mediocre skills players. And just trying to do too much.
I've been wondering for a while how important college stats are when assessing quarterback prospects. I've been looking at college stats for first round quarterbacks the last ten years. I haven't looked at every single guy, but so far Jones's are the worst of all of them. And not by a little bit.
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
I would say the most reliable stat from college seems to be the accuracy piece.
But even that needs context. The latest example being Josh Allen, playing for Wyoming with a mediocre OL and mediocre skills players. And just trying to do too much.
I've been wondering for a while how important college stats are when assessing quarterback prospects. I've been looking at college stats for first round quarterbacks the last ten years. I haven't looked at every single guy, but so far Jones's are the worst of all of them. And not by a little bit.
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
He did have that one big year at Duke where they wont a lot of games (for duke standards) and he possesses all the traits you look for in a QB.
His stats weren't great, but that one year they were very good and he basically carried a bad duke roster week in week out.
Teams look at how a QB's talents translate to the pro game as much as they look at stats.
Or, the Giants are just fucking stupid and drafted Jones because he talks like Eli. Better?
djm..
this is why i hammer the Jones point.
You say, He has *all* the traits you look for in a quarterback. He does not. And that was clear when he came out as well. Cosell was very lukewarm to Jones when he came out. He is tall and athletic, yes. Those are good traits. He does not have a power arm. Not close. He does not process the field quickly. It is not clear he is able to throw with anticipation. He does not move well in the pocket. He is not especially accurate. These are things he did not do when he came out. And he has yet to master them.
So when folks say he has *all the traits* I wonder where they get that from.
had ordinary at best numbers at morehead state. A few others did too in college but I can't remember the names.
At this point, why even bother anymore. He's here. He's been given the keys to make this work in 2021. Giants have a lot of people who have been in the NFL long enough to know a player who is or isn't worth investing in. They like Jones.
If you're implying that no QB or player ever put up better numbers in the PRO game than they did in College, you'll be met with proof that this has in fact happened on numerous occasions.
had ordinary at best numbers at morehead state. A few others did too in college but I can't remember the names.
At this point, why even bother anymore. He's here. He's been given the keys to make this work in 2021. Giants have a lot of people who have been in the NFL long enough to know a player who is or isn't worth investing in. They like Jones.
If you're implying that no QB or player ever put up better numbers in the PRO game than they did in College, you'll be met with proof that this has in fact happened on numerous occasions.
I've been wondering for a while how important college stats are when assessing quarterback prospects. I've been looking at college stats for first round quarterbacks the last ten years. I haven't looked at every single guy, but so far Jones's are the worst of all of them. And not by a little bit.
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
I would say the most reliable stat from college seems to be the accuracy piece.
But even that needs context. The latest example being Josh Allen, playing for Wyoming with a mediocre OL and mediocre skills players. And just trying to do too much.
I’ve said this before. More than a few times. You either never absorbed it, cared to absorb it or skipped over it, so here goes for the final time:
Pat Kirwan, who knows more about what to look for in a player coming into the draft than you and Terps combined x 5 (and I’m being generous) said this about Jones:
He saw Jones play a lot when at Duke, both live and on tape. He said, in all his years of scouting, he had NEVER seen a worse set of receivers during every year that DJ played there, than what/who he had to throw to. Terrible route running, but most importantly drop, after drop after drop from perfectly thrown or nearly perfectly thrown balls. He said it was uncanny..
I haven’t heard his comments relative to what offensive tools DJ will finally get to work with and with Barkley hopefully coming back 100%..I can only imagine PK is delighted. Perhaps a poster who might have heard his latest comments will weigh in..
RE: RE: RE: I'm debating starting a thread on this
I've been wondering for a while how important college stats are when assessing quarterback prospects. I've been looking at college stats for first round quarterbacks the last ten years. I haven't looked at every single guy, but so far Jones's are the worst of all of them. And not by a little bit.
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
I would say the most reliable stat from college seems to be the accuracy piece.
But even that needs context. The latest example being Josh Allen, playing for Wyoming with a mediocre OL and mediocre skills players. And just trying to do too much.
I’ve said this before. More than a few times. You either never absorbed it, cared to absorb it or skipped over it, so here goes for the final time:
Pat Kirwan, who knows more about what to look for in a player coming into the draft than you and Terps combined x 5 (and I’m being generous) said this about Jones:
He saw Jones play a lot when at Duke, both live and on tape. He said, in all his years of scouting, he had NEVER seen a worse set of receivers during every year that DJ played there, than what/who he had to throw to. Terrible route running, but most importantly drop, after drop after drop from perfectly thrown or nearly perfectly thrown balls. He said it was uncanny..
I haven’t heard his comments relative to what offensive tools DJ will finally get to work with and with Barkley hopefully coming back 100%..I can only imagine PK is delighted. Perhaps a poster who might have heard his latest comments will weigh in..
Here's how I read those comments, Fiddy: Jones should not have his college stats/record held against him because of his mediocre supporting cast.
But that doesn't mean he should be credited with each of those drops as catches - NFL QBs have receivers who drop the ball, too. Jones deserves a place in the NFL and shouldn't have his college team's weaknesses held against him. Great! Mission accomplished - he wound up a top-10 pick in spite of that ragtag bunch surrounding him at Duke.
Those excuses/explanations don't matter any more, IMO. What made Eli so attractive to EA was that he elevated a middling cast around him at Ole Miss. Jones comes from a similar collegiate pedigree, but instead of celebrating him elevating his teammates, we're excusing him for his teammates? Isn't that precisely the issue here?
But that still doesn't mean Jones was worthy of a 6th pick or that he was a good decision maker. Just means he had unreliable receivers and that may have impacted his completion %.
But that still doesn't mean Jones was worthy of a 6th pick or that he was a good decision maker. Just means he had unreliable receivers and that may have impacted his completion %.
yes it is quite a leap to go from, he had a abysmal supporting cast in college to #6 pick in the draft.
Jones either has the most excuses made for him of any player I've ever heard, or he's the unluckiest player on earth.
Either way, the next really good statistical season he puts together will be his first since high school (though that may not be true - I don't have his high school stats and he was probably throwing to the worst receivers in the world there too).
I defer to Sy's scouting report, which reflects what we've seen on the field: "There isn't a quick mind there."
Either way, the next really good statistical season he puts together will be his first since high school (though that may not be true - I don't have his high school stats and he was probably throwing to the worst receivers in the world there too).
That's pretty funny. Jones may need a new moniker instead of Danny Dimes - "If Only" Jones.
If only he had better blocking...
If only he had better receivers...
If only he had better coaching...
If only there wasn't wind...
Etc
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm debating starting a thread on this
I've been wondering for a while how important college stats are when assessing quarterback prospects. I've been looking at college stats for first round quarterbacks the last ten years. I haven't looked at every single guy, but so far Jones's are the worst of all of them. And not by a little bit.
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
I would say the most reliable stat from college seems to be the accuracy piece.
But even that needs context. The latest example being Josh Allen, playing for Wyoming with a mediocre OL and mediocre skills players. And just trying to do too much.
I’ve said this before. More than a few times. You either never absorbed it, cared to absorb it or skipped over it, so here goes for the final time:
Pat Kirwan, who knows more about what to look for in a player coming into the draft than you and Terps combined x 5 (and I’m being generous) said this about Jones:
He saw Jones play a lot when at Duke, both live and on tape. He said, in all his years of scouting, he had NEVER seen a worse set of receivers during every year that DJ played there, than what/who he had to throw to. Terrible route running, but most importantly drop, after drop after drop from perfectly thrown or nearly perfectly thrown balls. He said it was uncanny..
I haven’t heard his comments relative to what offensive tools DJ will finally get to work with and with Barkley hopefully coming back 100%..I can only imagine PK is delighted. Perhaps a poster who might have heard his latest comments will weigh in..
Here's how I read those comments, Fiddy: Jones should not have his college stats/record held against him because of his mediocre supporting cast.
But that doesn't mean he should be credited with each of those drops as catches - NFL QBs have receivers who drop the ball, too. Jones deserves a place in the NFL and shouldn't have his college team's weaknesses held against him. Great! Mission accomplished - he wound up a top-10 pick in spite of that ragtag bunch surrounding him at Duke.
Those excuses/explanations don't matter any more, IMO. What made Eli so attractive to EA was that he elevated a middling cast around him at Ole Miss. Jones comes from a similar collegiate pedigree, but instead of celebrating him elevating his teammates, we're excusing him for his teammates? Isn't that precisely the issue here?
The issue is/was people citing his college stats/accuracy “issues” coming out. And yes, they were cited MANY TIMES pre and post draft. PK explained why..That’s all I was posting, nothing more.
I will not address yet again, what happened with DJ last year because I’ve stated it more times than my sanity allows..
I was again, just addressing PK’s observations, nothing more..
I've been wondering for a while how important college stats are when assessing quarterback prospects. I've been looking at college stats for first round quarterbacks the last ten years. I haven't looked at every single guy, but so far Jones's are the worst of all of them. And not by a little bit.
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
LOL. When I think you can't get any lower, you pull a fucking rabbit out of the hat.
So why did the Giants draft him, Einstein? If we are going down the Eli 2.0 road again - let's be clear that you've led the bandwagon that the two are nothing alike. And Eli had very good college stats.
To me it is obvious why they picked Jones. It was a position of need and they felt he had the size, speed and arm strength to succeed in the NFL.
If you're going on the half-assed idea he's the reincarnation of Eli, then you're already too far gone - even moreso than all of your posts confirm
I've been wondering for a while how important college stats are when assessing quarterback prospects. I've been looking at college stats for first round quarterbacks the last ten years. I haven't looked at every single guy, but so far Jones's are the worst of all of them. And not by a little bit.
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
LOL. When I think you can't get any lower, you pull a fucking rabbit out of the hat.
So why did the Giants draft him, Einstein? If we are going down the Eli 2.0 road again - let's be clear that you've led the bandwagon that the two are nothing alike. And Eli had very good college stats.
To me it is obvious why they picked Jones. It was a position of need and they felt he had the size, speed and arm strength to succeed in the NFL.
If you're going on the half-assed idea he's the reincarnation of Eli, then you're already too far gone - even moreso than all of your posts confirm
It’s a shame. Though I have always like Terps the person and always will, he has gone from a must read with my coffee in the morning, to a must skip/avoid at all costs, when possible..And it’s not because I “can’t handle (his) the truth,” because I can, it’s the ad infinitum points which never change on every thread with zero evidence of give. With never a “you could be right.” Always with definitive certainty. That’s it. I know better. It’s tiresome and hard to avoid, because on most threads, even when I scroll past his posts, there’s always a little bit that always catches my eye..
Too bad, because he’s good people.
Btw? I’m a homer? All I’ve ever said, is that:
1-I believe DJ has all the essential tools to become a very good QB, but agree that things need to be improved on and eliminated
2-25 games is too small a sample size to DEFINITIVELY state how good or bad he is at present
3-That this year will tell a lot, now that he has tools to work with
4-Judge knows him best and whatever he believes, good or bad, I will tend to buy into..
Either way, the next really good statistical season he puts together will be his first since high school (though that may not be true - I don't have his high school stats and he was probably throwing to the worst receivers in the world there too).
That's pretty funny. Jones may need a new moniker instead of Danny Dimes - "If Only" Jones.
If only he had better blocking...
If only he had better receivers...
If only he had better coaching...
If only there wasn't wind...
Etc
Don’t forget the rain. Dep used to suggest it rained a lot when Eli had to play at Met Life.
I've been wondering for a while how important college stats are when assessing quarterback prospects. I've been looking at college stats for first round quarterbacks the last ten years. I haven't looked at every single guy, but so far Jones's are the worst of all of them. And not by a little bit.
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
I would say the most reliable stat from college seems to be the accuracy piece.
But even that needs context. The latest example being Josh Allen, playing for Wyoming with a mediocre OL and mediocre skills players. And just trying to do too much.
I’ve said this before. More than a few times. You either never absorbed it, cared to absorb it or skipped over it, so here goes for the final time:
Pat Kirwan, who knows more about what to look for in a player coming into the draft than you and Terps combined x 5 (and I’m being generous) said this about Jones:
He saw Jones play a lot when at Duke, both live and on tape. He said, in all his years of scouting, he had NEVER seen a worse set of receivers during every year that DJ played there, than what/who he had to throw to. Terrible route running, but most importantly drop, after drop after drop from perfectly thrown or nearly perfectly thrown balls. He said it was uncanny..
I haven’t heard his comments relative to what offensive tools DJ will finally get to work with and with Barkley hopefully coming back 100%..I can only imagine PK is delighted. Perhaps a poster who might have heard his latest comments will weigh in..
Here's how I read those comments, Fiddy: Jones should not have his college stats/record held against him because of his mediocre supporting cast.
But that doesn't mean he should be credited with each of those drops as catches - NFL QBs have receivers who drop the ball, too. Jones deserves a place in the NFL and shouldn't have his college team's weaknesses held against him. Great! Mission accomplished - he wound up a top-10 pick in spite of that ragtag bunch surrounding him at Duke.
Those excuses/explanations don't matter any more, IMO. What made Eli so attractive to EA was that he elevated a middling cast around him at Ole Miss. Jones comes from a similar collegiate pedigree, but instead of celebrating him elevating his teammates, we're excusing him for his teammates? Isn't that precisely the issue here?
The issue is/was people citing his college stats/accuracy “issues” coming out. And yes, they were cited MANY TIMES pre and post draft. PK explained why..That’s all I was posting, nothing more.
I will not address yet again, what happened with DJ last year because I’ve stated it more times than my sanity allows..
I was again, just addressing PK’s observations, nothing more..
Fair enough. And I always think that you're a balanced observer, capable in equal parts of criticism and praise.
I was just pointing out that some of the same things that have become excuses for DJ were, at one time, points of praise for Eli.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm debating starting a thread on this
I've been wondering for a while how important college stats are when assessing quarterback prospects. I've been looking at college stats for first round quarterbacks the last ten years. I haven't looked at every single guy, but so far Jones's are the worst of all of them. And not by a little bit.
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
I would say the most reliable stat from college seems to be the accuracy piece.
But even that needs context. The latest example being Josh Allen, playing for Wyoming with a mediocre OL and mediocre skills players. And just trying to do too much.
I’ve said this before. More than a few times. You either never absorbed it, cared to absorb it or skipped over it, so here goes for the final time:
Pat Kirwan, who knows more about what to look for in a player coming into the draft than you and Terps combined x 5 (and I’m being generous) said this about Jones:
He saw Jones play a lot when at Duke, both live and on tape. He said, in all his years of scouting, he had NEVER seen a worse set of receivers during every year that DJ played there, than what/who he had to throw to. Terrible route running, but most importantly drop, after drop after drop from perfectly thrown or nearly perfectly thrown balls. He said it was uncanny..
I haven’t heard his comments relative to what offensive tools DJ will finally get to work with and with Barkley hopefully coming back 100%..I can only imagine PK is delighted. Perhaps a poster who might have heard his latest comments will weigh in..
Here's how I read those comments, Fiddy: Jones should not have his college stats/record held against him because of his mediocre supporting cast.
But that doesn't mean he should be credited with each of those drops as catches - NFL QBs have receivers who drop the ball, too. Jones deserves a place in the NFL and shouldn't have his college team's weaknesses held against him. Great! Mission accomplished - he wound up a top-10 pick in spite of that ragtag bunch surrounding him at Duke.
Those excuses/explanations don't matter any more, IMO. What made Eli so attractive to EA was that he elevated a middling cast around him at Ole Miss. Jones comes from a similar collegiate pedigree, but instead of celebrating him elevating his teammates, we're excusing him for his teammates? Isn't that precisely the issue here?
The issue is/was people citing his college stats/accuracy “issues” coming out. And yes, they were cited MANY TIMES pre and post draft. PK explained why..That’s all I was posting, nothing more.
I will not address yet again, what happened with DJ last year because I’ve stated it more times than my sanity allows..
I was again, just addressing PK’s observations, nothing more..
Fair enough. And I always think that you're a balanced observer, capable in equal parts of criticism and praise.
I was just pointing out that some of the same things that have become excuses for DJ were, at one time, points of praise for Eli.
Gotcha
Nobody has pronounced Jones ot be great or to be the answer
given the circumstances but, especially, the limited body of work. Those people say that he has to show this year because those prior circumstances have been, at least somewhat, ameliorated. Others, based on the same information, have pronounced the final judgment that he sucks and no need to see anymore. Those are the two camps, if we are going to split into camps.
given the circumstances but, especially, the limited body of work. Those people say that he has to show this year because those prior circumstances have been, at least somewhat, ameliorated. Others, based on the same information, have pronounced the final judgment that he sucks and no need to see anymore. Those are the two camps, if we are going to split into camps.
That seems unfair.
There are those who claim that DJ is an unforgivable failure.
There are those who claim that DJ's rookie year is enough to declare him the franchise QB going forward.
There are most who feel like DJ is an unfinished product with some high points and some low points, and a lot to prove in 2021.
The first two stances are the two competing edges of the spectrum; the third includes the majority of NYG fans. Trying to position your argument as "we need to see more" vs. "we've seen enough to know he sucks" is unfair, because the former encapsulates two of the three debate positions.
If you feel unsure about DJ but are hopeful you land in the middle. If you feel unsure about DJ but suspect he's a bust, you also fall in the middle. Both sets of fans should theoretically be open to discovery this season.
It's just those on the edges who have made up their mind about DJ that are beyond the power of discussion at this point. And trying to pull a debate trick to reel in the middle when they're not fundamentally reeled in on the issue itself seems disingenuous and a way to bring the middle against one far-end of the spectrum, but the middle is the middle, undecided by definition.
At year 3 I think a QB must be pulling up the weaknesses on offense, not pulled down by them.
On paper the skill position players and line combination should be enough to buoy Jones to an average season.
If you believe in Gettleman as an architect, Judge as a coach, and Jones as a QB that seems like a pretty fair bar, no?
If health is reasonable, middle of the pack in points scored and passer rating is a fair measure?
That's what I'm looking at and is perfectly reasonable. Right now our skill players stand at average to pretty above average depending on guys with some questionable health marks. An offensive line that will run block above average, but probably below average in pass pro. This offense should be top half of the league if it's reasonably healthy, and if it isn't, you can certainly point fingers at Jones.
RE: Nobody has pronounced Jones ot be great or to be the answer
given the circumstances but, especially, the limited body of work. Those people say that he has to show this year because those prior circumstances have been, at least somewhat, ameliorated. Others, based on the same information, have pronounced the final judgment that he sucks and no need to see anymore. Those are the two camps, if we are going to split into camps.
There is a group here that believes vehemently that Jones is *the goods* (a phrase I despise) and they cite rumors of his amazing deep ball accuracy, accuracy into tight windows and all the other great tools they think he flashes. And when you challenge these assumptions they engage in personal attacks. To not acknowledge this group is disingenuous.
RE: Nobody has pronounced Jones ot be great or to be the answer
given the circumstances but, especially, the limited body of work. Those people say that he has to show this year because those prior circumstances have been, at least somewhat, ameliorated. Others, based on the same information, have pronounced the final judgment that he sucks and no need to see anymore. Those are the two camps, if we are going to split into camps.
This is an oversimplification. I won't speak for anyone else; I believe we've reached the point that we shouldn't be in a "let's give Jones another year" mindset. I think his first two years have been poor enough that:
1. We should be open to drafting another QB if the opportunity arises. I believe there were enough red flags in his rookie year to justify drafting another QB in 2020. I fully admit not being a big fan of Herbert coming out of college...that was obviously a misevaluation on my part. But if the Giants had a high grade on Herbert, I believe passing on him solely because we had Jones was a massive error in judgment. Similarly, if they a QB on whom they have a high grade falls to them at #11, Jones's presence shouldn't preclude them from drafting that QB.
2. They should have brought in a better backup to push Jones. They didn't do that...they are "giving" him 2021. But has he earned it through his play?
No one is suggesting outright giving up and cutting him. But there has been enough bad football from him through 2 years that they should already be exploring options. Instead they are now left to keep their fingers crossed that the player we saw in years 1 and 2 (and at Duke) is not the player that shows up in year 3.
Seems a fragile basket in which to place their eggs.
where a highly drafted QB is "pushed" by a backup in year 2, because you also called for this nonsense and the idea Jones is a "scholarship player" last year too.
Not only name a situation where a backup pushes for playing time, but where it actually works out.
Should the Cards bring in a backup to push Murray? Should the Browns do it for Mayfield? Should the Rams have done it for Goff? Should the Bengals do it for Burrow or the Chargers for Herbert?
This is why so many of your posts are horseshit. You propose things as if it should be common practice, when in reality, it isn't and people running teams don't look at the nonsense as a viable strategy
RE: RE: Nobody has pronounced Jones ot be great or to be the answer
given the circumstances but, especially, the limited body of work. Those people say that he has to show this year because those prior circumstances have been, at least somewhat, ameliorated. Others, based on the same information, have pronounced the final judgment that he sucks and no need to see anymore. Those are the two camps, if we are going to split into camps.
This is an oversimplification. I won't speak for anyone else; I believe we've reached the point that we shouldn't be in a "let's give Jones another year" mindset. I think his first two years have been poor enough that:
1. We should be open to drafting another QB if the opportunity arises. I believe there were enough red flags in his rookie year to justify drafting another QB in 2020. I fully admit not being a big fan of Herbert coming out of college...that was obviously a misevaluation on my part. But if the Giants had a high grade on Herbert, I believe passing on him solely because we had Jones was a massive error in judgment. Similarly, if they a QB on whom they have a high grade falls to them at #11, Jones's presence shouldn't preclude them from drafting that QB.
2. They should have brought in a better backup to push Jones. They didn't do that...they are "giving" him 2021. But has he earned it through his play?
No one is suggesting outright giving up and cutting him. But there has been enough bad football from him through 2 years that they should already be exploring options. Instead they are now left to keep their fingers crossed that the player we saw in years 1 and 2 (and at Duke) is not the player that shows up in year 3.
Seems a fragile basket in which to place their eggs.
Exactly.
I take the view that if you do not presently have a QB that is playing at an elite level, you have a quarterback problem.
And to simply wait for a third year QB to come around is poor management of our most precious resource. Time.
Smart teams do not wait several years for the QB to come around.
There are also posters who look at the overall Giants situation and think it would be better to:
1) Distract the coaches with a QB controversy of the kind to get talented coaches and FA to stay away from the chaos
2) Distract the players with a QB controversy of the kind known to tear teams apart
3) Do so after just recruiting players (and needing to recruit more) to a stable situation which they could have confidence in
4) Do so at this time and not later if needed
4) Use 1st round draft capital to do it for chances beyond the first ten slots have an ever increasing risk of not working
5) Use really helpful slots deeper in the draft to siphon away the many needs and talents the team needs despite the success rate for QB's taken past the first 10 slots dropping precipitously.
6) Continue to promote this strategy despite items 1-5 above in a lot of threads day after day and expect to be taken as an insightful, balanced and wise poster.
Which of the two posters ( the one you described or the one I described) is more worthy of being ignored?
I submit the answer is both equally
RE: RE: Nobody has pronounced Jones ot be great or to be the answer
given the circumstances but, especially, the limited body of work. Those people say that he has to show this year because those prior circumstances have been, at least somewhat, ameliorated. Others, based on the same information, have pronounced the final judgment that he sucks and no need to see anymore. Those are the two camps, if we are going to split into camps.
That seems unfair.
There are those who claim that DJ is an unforgivable failure.
There are those who claim that DJ's rookie year is enough to declare him the franchise QB going forward.
There are most who feel like DJ is an unfinished product with some high points and some low points, and a lot to prove in 2021.
The first two stances are the two competing edges of the spectrum; the third includes the majority of NYG fans. Trying to position your argument as "we need to see more" vs. "we've seen enough to know he sucks" is unfair, because the former encapsulates two of the three debate positions.
If you feel unsure about DJ but are hopeful you land in the middle. If you feel unsure about DJ but suspect he's a bust, you also fall in the middle. Both sets of fans should theoretically be open to discovery this season.
It's just those on the edges who have made up their mind about DJ that are beyond the power of discussion at this point. And trying to pull a debate trick to reel in the middle when they're not fundamentally reeled in on the issue itself seems disingenuous and a way to bring the middle against one far-end of the spectrum, but the middle is the middle, undecided by definition.
Maybe. But I honestly haven't seen anyone here, even ryankeane, say the Jones is a done deal franchise QB.
RE: RE: RE: I'm debating starting a thread on this
Pat Kirwan, who knows more about what to look for in a player coming into the draft than you and Terps combined x 5 (and I’m being generous) said this about Jones:
He saw Jones play a lot when at Duke, both live and on tape. He said, in all his years of scouting, he had NEVER seen a worse set of receivers during every year that DJ played there, than what/who he had to throw to. Terrible route running, but most importantly drop, after drop after drop from perfectly thrown or nearly perfectly thrown balls. He said it was uncanny..
For what it's worth, Pat Kirwan hasn't worked in any capacity for an NFL team since 1997. His resume includes stints with the Cardinals of the late 80s (bad franchise) and the Bucs of the mid-80s (also bad franchise). His tenure with the Jets (1989-1997) was a pitiful chapter in that franchise's history as well.
None of that makes him necessarily wrong of course, but if you're going to appeal to the authority of an opinion, you might want to make sure the person giving that opinion has an established history of being reliable on such matters.
RE: RE: RE: Nobody has pronounced Jones ot be great or to be the answer
given the circumstances but, especially, the limited body of work. Those people say that he has to show this year because those prior circumstances have been, at least somewhat, ameliorated. Others, based on the same information, have pronounced the final judgment that he sucks and no need to see anymore. Those are the two camps, if we are going to split into camps.
This is an oversimplification. I won't speak for anyone else; I believe we've reached the point that we shouldn't be in a "let's give Jones another year" mindset. I think his first two years have been poor enough that:
1. We should be open to drafting another QB if the opportunity arises. I believe there were enough red flags in his rookie year to justify drafting another QB in 2020. I fully admit not being a big fan of Herbert coming out of college...that was obviously a misevaluation on my part. But if the Giants had a high grade on Herbert, I believe passing on him solely because we had Jones was a massive error in judgment. Similarly, if they a QB on whom they have a high grade falls to them at #11, Jones's presence shouldn't preclude them from drafting that QB.
2. They should have brought in a better backup to push Jones. They didn't do that...they are "giving" him 2021. But has he earned it through his play?
No one is suggesting outright giving up and cutting him. But there has been enough bad football from him through 2 years that they should already be exploring options. Instead they are now left to keep their fingers crossed that the player we saw in years 1 and 2 (and at Duke) is not the player that shows up in year 3.
Seems a fragile basket in which to place their eggs.
Exactly.
I take the view that if you do not presently have a QB that is playing at an elite level, you have a quarterback problem.
And to simply wait for a third year QB to come around is poor management of our most precious resource. Time.
Smart teams do not wait several years for the QB to come around.
Good to know you would have cut bait with guys like Brett Favre and Drew Brees who did not really blossom into the QB's they became until their 4th and 6th seasons respectively
RE: RE: Nobody has pronounced Jones ot be great or to be the answer
given the circumstances but, especially, the limited body of work. Those people say that he has to show this year because those prior circumstances have been, at least somewhat, ameliorated. Others, based on the same information, have pronounced the final judgment that he sucks and no need to see anymore. Those are the two camps, if we are going to split into camps.
This is an oversimplification. I won't speak for anyone else; I believe we've reached the point that we shouldn't be in a "let's give Jones another year" mindset. I think his first two years have been poor enough that:
1. We should be open to drafting another QB if the opportunity arises. I believe there were enough red flags in his rookie year to justify drafting another QB in 2020. I fully admit not being a big fan of Herbert coming out of college...that was obviously a misevaluation on my part. But if the Giants had a high grade on Herbert, I believe passing on him solely because we had Jones was a massive error in judgment. Similarly, if they a QB on whom they have a high grade falls to them at #11, Jones's presence shouldn't preclude them from drafting that QB.
2. They should have brought in a better backup to push Jones. They didn't do that...they are "giving" him 2021. But has he earned it through his play?
No one is suggesting outright giving up and cutting him. But there has been enough bad football from him through 2 years that they should already be exploring options. Instead they are now left to keep their fingers crossed that the player we saw in years 1 and 2 (and at Duke) is not the player that shows up in year 3.
Seems a fragile basket in which to place their eggs.
You can't possibly be saying that the Bengals should use their pick on Fields or Lance?
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm debating starting a thread on this
Pat Kirwan, who knows more about what to look for in a player coming into the draft than you and Terps combined x 5 (and I’m being generous) said this about Jones:
He saw Jones play a lot when at Duke, both live and on tape. He said, in all his years of scouting, he had NEVER seen a worse set of receivers during every year that DJ played there, than what/who he had to throw to. Terrible route running, but most importantly drop, after drop after drop from perfectly thrown or nearly perfectly thrown balls. He said it was uncanny..
For what it's worth, Pat Kirwan hasn't worked in any capacity for an NFL team since 1997. His resume includes stints with the Cardinals of the late 80s (bad franchise) and the Bucs of the mid-80s (also bad franchise). His tenure with the Jets (1989-1997) was a pitiful chapter in that franchise's history as well.
None of that makes him necessarily wrong of course, but if you're going to appeal to the authority of an opinion, you might want to make sure the person giving that opinion has an established history of being reliable on such matters.
I would say PK is more reliable than almost anyone on here. That he hasn’t held a professional position in years, somehow negates his ability to assess personnel? How absurd
teams do exactly that. Wait for a QB to come around, and often fail while trying to find one.
While the Packers had a seamless QB transition, it rarely is the case. Until Brady came along, the Pats didn't have great QB play and are now struggling with him gone. The steelers prior to Ben relied on defense because they had mediocre QB's. Pick most teams and this happens. Seattle. Carolina. Denver. Giants. Basically every team out there that struggles to replace an established QB with a replacement or who struggle for years without a QB until they find one. It has nothing to do with being a smart team or not.
It comes down to eventually finding a franchise QB.
teams do exactly that. Wait for a QB to come around, and often fail while trying to find one.
While the Packers had a seamless QB transition, it rarely is the case. Until Brady came along, the Pats didn't have great QB play and are now struggling with him gone. The steelers prior to Ben relied on defense because they had mediocre QB's. Pick most teams and this happens. Seattle. Carolina. Denver. Giants. Basically every team out there that struggles to replace an established QB with a replacement or who struggle for years without a QB until they find one. It has nothing to do with being a smart team or not.
It comes down to eventually finding a franchise QB.
actually some teams, now, look to replace good QBs with better ones. Look at the Chiefs and the Saints who both wanted Mahomes even though they had great QB play at the time.
I'm not interested in discussing what happened 20, 30, 40 years ago.
RE: RE: Nobody has pronounced Jones ot be great or to be the answer
given the circumstances but, especially, the limited body of work. Those people say that he has to show this year because those prior circumstances have been, at least somewhat, ameliorated. Others, based on the same information, have pronounced the final judgment that he sucks and no need to see anymore. Those are the two camps, if we are going to split into camps.
This is an oversimplification. I won't speak for anyone else; I believe we've reached the point that we shouldn't be in a "let's give Jones another year" mindset. I think his first two years have been poor enough that:
1. We should be open to drafting another QB if the opportunity arises. I believe there were enough red flags in his rookie year to justify drafting another QB in 2020. I fully admit not being a big fan of Herbert coming out of college...that was obviously a misevaluation on my part. But if the Giants had a high grade on Herbert, I believe passing on him solely because we had Jones was a massive error in judgment. Similarly, if they a QB on whom they have a high grade falls to them at #11, Jones's presence shouldn't preclude them from drafting that QB.
2. They should have brought in a better backup to push Jones. They didn't do that...they are "giving" him 2021. But has he earned it through his play?
No one is suggesting outright giving up and cutting him. But there has been enough bad football from him through 2 years that they should already be exploring options. Instead they are now left to keep their fingers crossed that the player we saw in years 1 and 2 (and at Duke) is not the player that shows up in year 3.
Seems a fragile basket in which to place their eggs.
This is good Terps. I don't agree with all that you say but we can have a discussion from here.
Jones essentially had 2 rookie seasons and 2 is worse than 1. I am not going to spend the time and list all the circumstances. You know them. You know what I would say here, I am certain of it.
I think it is absolutely reasonable for DG to load Jones up and give him a shot on year 3 of his rookie contract based on all the circumstance surrounding his first 2 years. We need to know now. I personally feel he is an above average thrower. Physically and mechanically. I think he is accurate.
If they get him any of the weapons mocked to us Jones will have an excellent year that puts this all to bed. Even if Golloday gets injured, I wouldn't use it as an excuse. They will still be deep a WR if they land one of Pitts, Chase, Waddle or Smith. Even if they add a Moore in the second round, it will be good enough. This offense will have weapons to attack every area of the field and backups. Ideally I want blazing speed now. Pitts/Waddle are my dreams.
He is going to have enough mismatches to exploit that he is going to look a lot more confident back there. Jones will know where to go with the ball. The legendary criticism delivered by Sy 56 will be answered with easy decisions.
Jason Garret had to step in for Troy Aikman in a big game and Troy told him to throw it high and deep to Harper if he didn't know what to do. Garret had a big game. When Jones doesn't know what to do he can go high to Golloday on the outside.
You mean like KC has gone decades and decades between Len Dawson and Mahomes?
Miami is still looking for the successor to Marino 40 years down the road.
Who came after Elway? who came after Steve Young? those guys hung them up 20 years ago.
Amazingly, Chicago hasnt replaced McMahon (and thats a low bar), Washington has not replaced Jurgenson, Houston has not replaced Moon, the Vikings have not replaced Tarkenton, the Jets have not replaced Joe Willie. St Louis never replaced no one to begin with.
If it was easy, and there were a lot of perfect QB's then lets draft more QB's
You mean like KC has gone decades and decades between Len Dawson and Mahomes?
Miami is still looking for the successor to Marino 40 years down the road.
Who came after Elway? who came after Steve Young? those guys hung them up 20 years ago.
Amazingly, Chicago hasnt replaced McMahon (and thats a low bar), Washington has not replaced Jurgenson, Houston has not replaced Moon, the Vikings have not replaced Tarkenton, the Jets have not replaced Joe Willie. St Louis never replaced no one to begin with.
If it was easy, and there were a lot of perfect QB's then lets draft more QB's
You mean St. Louis never replaced Warner, or am I misreading?
And why this sudden infatuation with acting like the Saints coveted Mahomes?? Mahomes interest has become like a parlor trick here.
Some have used it to make McAdoo seem great. Now we are extending it to the Saints too?? So should the Cardinals, Browns, Chargers and Bengals look to replace their QB's??
By the way - talking about the chiefs. They had Alex Smith, a NFL journeyman as their QB. It is hardly surprising they looked to move on from him. The Giants did the same when they had Kerry Collins. And actually, the situations are very similar. We went to a Super Bowl with Collins.
Name a situation where a young player is pushed by a backup to threaten his position that has worked out. should be easy if it frequently happens.
I thought this conversation was about the Jets trading Darnold
instead it has spiraled into whether Daniel Jones is good or not...
I think the Jets got what they could for Darnold considering that he never became their franchise QB, and the Panthers created a dilemma for themselves because they have to determine much more quickly than the Jets Darnold's ability
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm debating starting a thread on this
Pat Kirwan, who knows more about what to look for in a player coming into the draft than you and Terps combined x 5 (and I’m being generous) said this about Jones:
He saw Jones play a lot when at Duke, both live and on tape. He said, in all his years of scouting, he had NEVER seen a worse set of receivers during every year that DJ played there, than what/who he had to throw to. Terrible route running, but most importantly drop, after drop after drop from perfectly thrown or nearly perfectly thrown balls. He said it was uncanny..
For what it's worth, Pat Kirwan hasn't worked in any capacity for an NFL team since 1997. His resume includes stints with the Cardinals of the late 80s (bad franchise) and the Bucs of the mid-80s (also bad franchise). His tenure with the Jets (1989-1997) was a pitiful chapter in that franchise's history as well.
None of that makes him necessarily wrong of course, but if you're going to appeal to the authority of an opinion, you might want to make sure the person giving that opinion has an established history of being reliable on such matters.
I would say PK is more reliable than almost anyone on here. That he hasn’t held a professional position in years, somehow negates his ability to assess personnel? How absurd
Is there anything on PK's resume that indicates he actually can assess personnel with any significant level of expertise? Because in looking at the teams he's helped put together it's not entirely clear.
To say that he's more qualified than a bunch of message board posters is a mighty low bar to clear if you're going to appeal to his authority.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm debating starting a thread on this
Pat Kirwan, who knows more about what to look for in a player coming into the draft than you and Terps combined x 5 (and I’m being generous) said this about Jones:
He saw Jones play a lot when at Duke, both live and on tape. He said, in all his years of scouting, he had NEVER seen a worse set of receivers during every year that DJ played there, than what/who he had to throw to. Terrible route running, but most importantly drop, after drop after drop from perfectly thrown or nearly perfectly thrown balls. He said it was uncanny..
For what it's worth, Pat Kirwan hasn't worked in any capacity for an NFL team since 1997. His resume includes stints with the Cardinals of the late 80s (bad franchise) and the Bucs of the mid-80s (also bad franchise). His tenure with the Jets (1989-1997) was a pitiful chapter in that franchise's history as well.
None of that makes him necessarily wrong of course, but if you're going to appeal to the authority of an opinion, you might want to make sure the person giving that opinion has an established history of being reliable on such matters.
I would say PK is more reliable than almost anyone on here. That he hasn’t held a professional position in years, somehow negates his ability to assess personnel? How absurd
Is there anything on PK's resume that indicates he actually can assess personnel with any significant level of expertise? Because in looking at the teams he's helped put together it's not entirely clear.
To say that he's more qualified than a bunch of message board posters is a mighty low bar to clear if you're going to appeal to his authority.
He is one of the more highly regarded Personnel evaluators that media and teams respect and at times reference. As you know he’s had a regular radio spot on Sirius for at least 10 years or so and my understanding is he watches tons of film-film most of us are not privy to..If you don’t want to trust his “eyes” or evaluating skills that’s fine. I do and yes, of course he’s not always correct.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Nobody has pronounced Jones ot be great or to be the answer
Good to know you would have cut bait with guys like Brett Favre and Drew Brees who did not really blossom into the QB's they became until their 4th and 6th seasons respectively
Those were second round draft choices. So the situations aren't the same. Outside of the first round, I think it's fair to say those QBs are considered projects.
or if you don't, his evaluation of Daniel Jones was essentially echoed by Gill Brandt, Greg Cossell, and Daniel Jeremiah. There were other analysts who didn't like him, but the point is that if you're going to dismiss the message merely by killing the messenger...
You mean like KC has gone decades and decades between Len Dawson and Mahomes?
Other than Joe Montana and Alex Smith, sure. Unless we're just counting between SB QBs, in which case maybe I misread the question.
Quote:
Miami is still looking for the successor to Marino 40 years down the road.
Miami has found a handful of successors that are pretty typical for what the NFL QB market delivers, IMO. Fiedler, Pennington, Fitzpatrick - those are all NFL QBs. Not greats by any stretch, but they're fairly representative of where most NFL QBs reside. This is a potentially likely tier for DJ, as well, and that's not a knock against him, it's just a function of probability.
Quote:
Who came after Elway? who came after Steve Young? those guys hung them up 20 years ago.
Immediately after Elway and holding down the spot until Peyton? Bubby Brister was really a career backup. Jay Cutler flashed as a franchise QB but ultimately lacked the constitution. Tim Tebow was a QB who couldn't actually throw the ball well. Brock Osweiler couldn''t really do anything well. It's a pretty good representation of the range of outcomes that you might get when looking for a QB and he doesn't wind up being a franchise QB. Is that what Jones is? A forgettable footnote?
Jeff Garcia came after Steve Young. Alex Smith came after Garcia. I might be missing a few short-term placeholders that were in the mix along the way. As of today, Garcia and Smith are better than Jones, but Jones has a very good chance to surpass both of them. Still, that's not a great example, IMO - that franchise hasn't been QB-starved; they're just a good example of what a pretty good, not great NFL QB looks like.
Quote:
Amazingly, Chicago hasnt replaced McMahon (and thats a low bar), Washington has not replaced Jurgenson, Houston has not replaced Moon, the Vikings have not replaced Tarkenton, the Jets have not replaced Joe Willie. St Louis never replaced no one to begin with.
Are these the franchises we want to be in the company of? Does identifying the QB-barren scorched earth of the NFL make Jones any better or worse? Are we trying to justify mediocrity or root for success?
Quote:
If it was easy, and there were a lot of perfect QB's then lets draft more QB's
It's not easy, that's for sure. Most teams fail far more often than they succeed when it comes to choosing their QB, and it's in clear contrast when a young QB follows a franchise legend. There shouldn't be any apologies required for that.
There also shouldn't be any make-believe scenarios that the successor is a sure thing when, as you pointed out, it's incredibly improbable that he's anything but mediocre.
But there's no precluding causal effect between having had a good one and finding the next one.
Quarterback has extraordinary outsized impact among team sports. It has no parallel. Getting it right should be the number one priority of management.
If anything teams don't push hard enough to have meaningful competition and a pipeline in my view.
They definitely don’t push hard enough. Not sure about why although it is clearly difficult to balance patience against development and the inevitable excuses that arise with other weaknesses in the roster. We certainly have seen that from the fan base here tor quite a few years now.
But there's no precluding causal effect between having had a good one and finding the next one.
Quarterback has extraordinary outsized impact among team sports. It has no parallel. Getting it right should be the number one priority of management.
If anything teams don't push hard enough to have meaningful competition and a pipeline in my view.
They definitely don’t push hard enough. Not sure about why although it is clearly difficult to balance patience against development and the inevitable excuses that arise with other weaknesses in the roster. We certainly have seen that from the fan base here tor quite a few years now.
I think we are seeing a sea change. There are more QBs coming out who fit pro offenses more than ever before. And with rules changes that emphasize the passing game much more than even 10 years ago, never mind 40 years ago, finding an elite QB for your team is more pressing than in decades past. We will likely see QBs go 1-2-3-4 and 5 in the top 10. Attitudes about QBs are rightly changing. For people who want to stick to assumptions from 30 years ago - fine. They are sticking their heads in the sand. For teams who think this is the same sport it was in 1983 - they are going to be left behind.
I think one can wreck a franchise by overpursuing and over spending and over risking.
It's tricky and risky to time when to fold and start again.
Imo, it's not yet time ( and it's out of my hands) and for me it wrecks watching the actual Giants that are getting better to obsess about this aspect ( for which we don't have all the data or the insights to decide).
Lastly, imo, posting ones thoughts is very different then posting them over and over and over and over again in pursuit of an inner need I'm not familiar with
teams with good records and few holes rarely have the chance to pick a top-flight QB. So they do have to balance development versus just picking a sub-tier guy more carefully. Conversely, the teams that do pick top-flight, even "pro-ready" QBs more often than not have to give him time while the team fixes the other parts that put them in the position to draft the really good guy very high.
I think one can wreck a franchise by overpursuing and over spending and over risking.
It's tricky and risky to time when to fold and start again.
Imo, it's not yet time ( and it's out of my hands) and for me it wrecks watching the actual Giants that are getting better to obsess about this aspect ( for which we don't have all the data or the insights to decide).
Lastly, imo, posting ones thoughts is very different then posting them over and over and over and over again in pursuit of an inner need I'm not familiar with
I have to say, that while I get that you play the game to win and I really really want to win (as much as anyone else), I also just love watching a team grow. I love pre-season (for almost all sports) about as much as I do the regular season because I love watching guys I never heard of. For me, it's part 2 of the draft (that we all live and fixate upon) because it's the implementation phase for the picks we were excited about. I don't think I would watch much or find satisfaction in the juggernaut team that just pounds everyone. It's why I hate the NBA teams that just accumulate the superstar friends and then beat everyone else up.
I enjoy the struggle as much as I enjoy the success. There so much more hope and fulfillment involved. So, I don't get all the bile that some people have.
It’s not about over pursuing though as much as truly understanding
I think one can wreck a franchise by overpursuing and over spending and over risking.
It's tricky and risky to time when to fold and start again.
Imo, it's not yet time ( and it's out of my hhands) and for me it wrecks watching the actual Giants that are getting better to obsess about this aspect ( for which we don't have all the data or the insights to decide).
Lastly, imo, posting ones thoughts is very different then posting them over and over and over and over again in pursuit of an inner need I'm not familiar with
Understood. AT THIS JUNCTURE, no one really knows what we have in DJ, opinions aside. To claim to KNOW at this point in time, can only be deemed silly and rather stupid.
I agree. And they finally have a few pieces and coaches that are producing watchable football
BB56, with all due respect to even the posters I do respect, why would anyone follow for a minute anyone on BBI regarding this subject at this time ( and I personally, with very little knowledge, have doubts about DJ and also clear reasons he has put on tape to hope for better as well)? But no one here (or in the media) has provided much insight based on the data we have so far that is superior in deciphering the mix of what our eyes tell us
Im reminded of those etchings showing water diviners walking around with their "Y" shaped branches to advise others where to drill a well
The Giants should have a very good defense. They will have improved specials. They play in a division where the other teams have serious flaws.
Jones this year needs to be the reason they win a couple of these division games. Most of the other games probably come down to the 4th Qtr. Manage the game and in the 4th win some of these by making a big throw in a tight window on third down. Take the team down the field in the last two minutes for a walk off field goal.
I think a big key will be gaining confidence for Jones. Best way to do that is play big in big moments and be the reason your team wins. Do this and he will "elevate" the team and they will win more.
I rather see him have these big moments than debate what QBR he needs to continue as the Giants QB at this stage of his career.
I rather see him have these big moments than debate what QBR he needs to continue as the Giants QB at this stage of his career.
Has QBR been mentioned as a benchmark? Maybe I didn't see it. But it shouldn't be the lead indicator, although I do see the value as a metric.
But I think Jones is responsible for points and getting us closer to 25ppg. And that's going to require him, and we were down this road last week, getting very close to 30TD passes.
Being in striking distance in the 4th quarter is often the product of not making myriad mistakes in the previous 3 quarters.
Whatever the metric, Jones needs to be among the QBs who doesn't consistently put his team in a hole quarters 1-3, and then can come up big.
But let's not fool ourselves into thinking both of those factors won't take dramatic improvement. We're talking about a guy who has led the league in fumbles in consecutive years and has total 1 career 4th quarter comeback and 2 game winning drives.
Being in striking distance in the 4th quarter is often the product of not making myriad mistakes in the previous 3 quarters.
Whatever the metric, Jones needs to be among the QBs who doesn't consistently put his team in a hole quarters 1-3, and then can come up big.
But let's not fool ourselves into thinking both of those factors won't take dramatic improvement. We're talking about a guy who has led the league in fumbles in consecutive years and has total 1 career 4th quarter comeback and 2 game winning drives.
He led the league in fumbles last year? That’s news to me
I rather see him have these big moments than debate what QBR he needs to continue as the Giants QB at this stage of his career.
Has QBR been mentioned as a benchmark? Maybe I didn't see it. But it shouldn't be the lead indicator, although I do see the value as a metric.
But I think Jones is responsible for points and getting us closer to 25ppg. And that's going to require him, and we were down this road last week, getting very close to 30TD passes.
QBR and stats overall are always front and center on this site.
Giants vs. Dallas 2007 Divisional game. Dallas beat them twice already that year, were a big favorite and at home. Dallas was beating up the Giants pretty good in the first half. Eli takes the Giants down the field for a score at the end of the half. Makes key conversions and gave the Giants a chance in the second half. No turnovers in the game overall.
Tony Romo against a very tired D with a chance to walk his team off with a win............misses a open receiver in the endzone.
Eli would go on to win two Super Bowl MVP's. Tony Romo never played in a championship game. Big moments in big games matter. Do we have stats for this?
Has QBR been mentioned as a benchmark? Maybe I didn't see it. But it shouldn't be the lead indicator, although I do see the value as a metric.
But I think Jones is responsible for points and getting us closer to 25ppg. And that's going to require him, and we were down this road last week, getting very close to 30TD passes.
QBR and stats overall are always front and center on this site.
Giants vs. Dallas 2007 Divisional game. Dallas beat them twice already that year, were a big favorite and at home. Dallas was beating up the Giants pretty good in the first half. Eli takes the Giants down the field for a score at the end of the half. Makes key conversions and gave the Giants a chance in the second half. No turnovers in the game overall.
Tony Romo against a very tired D with a chance to walk his team off with a win............misses a open receiver in the endzone.
Eli would go on to win two Super Bowl MVP's. Tony Romo never played in a championship game. Big moments in big games matter. Do we have stats for this?
I'm not sure what Eli has to do with this - again. He's really an outlier as a QB. So using him as comp for Jones continues to make little sense to me.
With Jones, he needs to be a points producer. He needs to figure out to create significantly more TDs and be the centerpiece of the offense.
Being in striking distance in the 4th quarter is often the product of not making myriad mistakes in the previous 3 quarters.
Whatever the metric, Jones needs to be among the QBs who doesn't consistently put his team in a hole quarters 1-3, and then can come up big.
But let's not fool ourselves into thinking both of those factors won't take dramatic improvement. We're talking about a guy who has led the league in fumbles in consecutive years and has total 1 career 4th quarter comeback and 2 game winning drives.
He led the league in fumbles last year? That’s news to me
He tied Carr for the lead in fumbles with 11.
For reference Carr had 1007 snaps/517 attempts, and Jones 868/448.
QBR and stats overall are always front and center on this site.
Giants vs. Dallas 2007 Divisional game. Dallas beat them twice already that year, were a big favorite and at home. Dallas was beating up the Giants pretty good in the first half. Eli takes the Giants down the field for a score at the end of the half. Makes key conversions and gave the Giants a chance in the second half. No turnovers in the game overall.
Tony Romo against a very tired D with a chance to walk his team off with a win............misses a open receiver in the endzone.
Eli would go on to win two Super Bowl MVP's. Tony Romo never played in a championship game. Big moments in big games matter. Do we have stats for this?
We sure do! Manning doesn't have that opportunity if the Giants don't make the playoffs (10 wins).
By that point in his career Manning had 7 4th quarter comebacks, and 8 game winning drives.
Being in striking distance in the 4th quarter is often the product of not making myriad mistakes in the previous 3 quarters.
Whatever the metric, Jones needs to be among the QBs who doesn't consistently put his team in a hole quarters 1-3, and then can come up big.
But let's not fool ourselves into thinking both of those factors won't take dramatic improvement. We're talking about a guy who has led the league in fumbles in consecutive years and has total 1 career 4th quarter comeback and 2 game winning drives.
He led the league in fumbles last year? That’s news to me
He tied Carr for the lead in fumbles with 11.
For reference Carr had 1007 snaps/517 attempts, and Jones 868/448.
Being in striking distance in the 4th quarter is often the product of not making myriad mistakes in the previous 3 quarters.
Whatever the metric, Jones needs to be among the QBs who doesn't consistently put his team in a hole quarters 1-3, and then can come up big.
But let's not fool ourselves into thinking both of those factors won't take dramatic improvement. We're talking about a guy who has led the league in fumbles in consecutive years and has total 1 career 4th quarter comeback and 2 game winning drives.
He led the league in fumbles last year? That’s news to me
He tied Carr for the lead in fumbles with 11.
For reference Carr had 1007 snaps/517 attempts, and Jones 868/448.
That is odd, considering we read so much how DJ got the ball security issues fixed in 2020. Particularly in the second half of 2020.
So in reality he didn’t really fix it...he just didn’t set any more league records. Better news, just not good news.
Being in striking distance in the 4th quarter is often the product of not making myriad mistakes in the previous 3 quarters.
Whatever the metric, Jones needs to be among the QBs who doesn't consistently put his team in a hole quarters 1-3, and then can come up big.
But let's not fool ourselves into thinking both of those factors won't take dramatic improvement. We're talking about a guy who has led the league in fumbles in consecutive years and has total 1 career 4th quarter comeback and 2 game winning drives.
He led the league in fumbles last year? That’s news to me
He tied Carr for the lead in fumbles with 11.
For reference Carr had 1007 snaps/517 attempts, and Jones 868/448.
So he went from setting fumble records to just leading the league.
Well, I guess that is at least better news albeit not good news.
I actually like Jones, and I am not critical of him out of some ulterior motive.
He had a troubling bad season. The type of season we'd mock if he were Darnold, Rosen, Wentz, etc.
He's got to be a lot better to even be a game manager type.
Well as you know, I wholeheartedly disagree with the “troubling bad season.”
I look at it this way. With no preseason (every team had that) and a new coaching staff and OC(most teams did not have that), he took awhile to get going. He was not good. You want to call him terrible, that’s fine.
I then feel he started to move the chains/team with his legs and arm and looked good doing it..Maybe not “QBR” good, but team good. Then he got injured and tge mobility, that made him a double threat, was lost..
In sum, I can’t disagree with the “troubling bad” part of what you said, but only for the first 1/3 (or whatever time frame) of the season. Once he appeared to settle in, he was looking as though he was getting it..So SEASON? Disagree, First PART of the season, absolutely..
But, I’m repeating myself and I hate having to do that..NO ONE’S changing their minds over what I have to say. We shall see what 2021 brings..
But there's no precluding causal effect between having had a good one and finding the next one.
Quarterback has extraordinary outsized impact among team sports. It has no parallel. Getting it right should be the number one priority of management.
If anything teams don't push hard enough to have meaningful competition and a pipeline in my view.
They definitely don’t push hard enough. Not sure about why although it is clearly difficult to balance patience against development and the inevitable excuses that arise with other weaknesses in the roster. We certainly have seen that from the fan base here tor quite a few years now.
I think we are seeing a sea change. There are more QBs coming out who fit pro offenses more than ever before. And with rules changes that emphasize the passing game much more than even 10 years ago, never mind 40 years ago, finding an elite QB for your team is more pressing than in decades past. We will likely see QBs go 1-2-3-4 and 5 in the top 10. Attitudes about QBs are rightly changing. For people who want to stick to assumptions from 30 years ago - fine. They are sticking their heads in the sand. For teams who think this is the same sport it was in 1983 - they are going to be left behind.
As Kiper said yesterday (which I quoted earlier in the thread), league wide guys are going to get 3 maybe 4 seasons to show they've got the stuff to stick, or they're being replaced. Bringing up Brees, Favre, Eli, etc is irrelevant because the league attitude towards QB development has changed. The so-so guys aren't going to get that fifth or sixth year to breakout, at least not with their first team.
Being in striking distance in the 4th quarter is often the product of not making myriad mistakes in the previous 3 quarters.
Whatever the metric, Jones needs to be among the QBs who doesn't consistently put his team in a hole quarters 1-3, and then can come up big.
But let's not fool ourselves into thinking both of those factors won't take dramatic improvement. We're talking about a guy who has led the league in fumbles in consecutive years and has total 1 career 4th quarter comeback and 2 game winning drives.
He led the league in fumbles last year? That’s news to me
He tied Carr for the lead in fumbles with 11.
For reference Carr had 1007 snaps/517 attempts, and Jones 868/448.
So he went from setting fumble records to just leading the league.
Well, I guess that is at least better news albeit not good news.
Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson were pretty much equally as bad. I wonder if their fans hate them too?
Actually no. The critique in this exchange is that if Jones is going to be relied on to be a clutch QB at the end of games, he also needs to not put the Giants under water earlier in games.
If he were counterbalancing his mistakes with overwhelming productivity like the players you mentioned, it would be a net positive.
But thank you for inadvertently contributing the term still fumblers to the BBI vernacular. I’m glad you were able to finally add something.
he's been going to be an elite QB since year 2. I certainly believe that DJ can have a better career than Jackson and think he turns to be a perennial top 10 QB for many years. People know where I stand there since last season.
Jackson's game is going to take a big hit after he loses some of his AA, he relies on it to get guys wide open to make up for some of his poor acccuracy, especially to the sidelines. Making these declarations so early in their career is asinine. You can post your opinion, but to act like it's decided one way or another is ridiculous.
It can't be said enough, but DJ played with absolute garbage last year and I saw a ton of growth starting in the 2nd half of that Bucs game that continued until he got hurt. I saw what they were trying to do with him early, but like many here, I wasn't sure if he was going to make it early in the season, and was pretty down to tbh around the Rams game.
What I saw as the season progresses gives me a ton of confidence in his ability. But to act like it's some ridiculous statement isn't so far off. It's the NFL and things change fast and who knows what the hell Lamar's career ends up like with him being so unusual. Will Lamar end up as a career top 10 QB? I don't know, but I feel confident Jones will be a perennial at least top 12 guy. That's the floor I see. Whether that is worth a second contract or not is something we can revisit in the future, but I certainly think he can be better than that. I think a lot of people are going to be suprised this year, pleasantly for some of them, I'm not so sure.
I didn't hate Jones when we drafted him. I advocates for him to be the pick over Haskins (if we had to draft a qb), and I advocated for him to start over Eli from day 1.
I am critical of him because he hasn't been good. That simple.
where I differ on Jones versus others - expectations.
I don't hate Jones. But do think he was over-drafted.
Now that he's been handed the keys, however, I expect him to play like the 6th pick in the draft. Which is to be a great player. That's why these so called "experts" in the front office drafted him. Apparently they saw something I didn't. Okay, than let's lead the team to points and wins.
While I understand that Jones hasn't been dealt the best hand, I expect him to figure it and solve the problem. And everyday I wonder why the hell the rest of the board doesn't it view this similarly...
So I don't want to be patient with Jones because I see too many examples of other high drafted QBs who get it quickly.
The difference between being a quality starter and a career back up is consistency.
Two recent quarterbacks I’ve watched who had streaks of pretty good play, but ultimately couldn’t do it week in and out are Mariota and Trubisky. Just like Jones the last 2 years, if you catch them in the right light, you see a pretty good NFL quarterback.
It’s not hard to find small stretches of games where Jones looked like a good player. It’s easier to find stretches where he looked pretty rough. That’s how you pile up the losses and accumulate bad numbers.
I don’t think Jones has the ceiling of some of his peers. I don’t think he’ll ever be an MVP. But he can be good. He can be Dak Prescott good.
I think one can wreck a franchise by overpursuing and over spending and over risking.
It's tricky and risky to time when to fold and start again.
Imo, it's not yet time ( and it's out of my hands) and for me it wrecks watching the actual Giants that are getting better to obsess about this aspect ( for which we don't have all the data or the insights to decide).
Lastly, imo, posting ones thoughts is very different then posting them over and over and over and over again in pursuit of an inner need I'm not familiar with
Just a need to be heard I guess...even though people get (have gotten) sick and tired of hearing the same shit from them. 😉
Let's see:
1) A lower mediocre OL, that showed SOME improvement later in the year.
2) A lower journeyman rb corps once Barkley went down. Gallman led the bunch with 682 yards.
3) A wr corps without a single standout player and with only one or two that sometimes played up to the #2 wr level. I have hopes for Slayton, but he led the team during his sophomore slump, with 751 yard.
4) A TE corps headed by an undersized TE who specialized in dropping the ball.
Opposing defenses could stack the box against Jones, because never had any talent around him that the defenses worried about. I'm not even all that worried about Jones' dropsies, if Barkley get back close to normal and the OL gets a bit better and more consistent. Jones never developed a natural rhythm, given the awful level of talent around him.
As some have said, I think there is a case for Jones as a 10-15 ranked qb, and that would probably be sufficient. If Barkley makes it back and the wrs excel, he could look so much better.
if QBs ALWAYS showed their true peak or ceiling 10-20 or so games in and that was that, the QB position wouldn't be the most confounding position in PRO sports.
Referencing an kind of widely held concrete bedrock read on QB development is nothing short of impossible. Sitting here saying you know is hilarious. You don't. You're not a better judge of QBs than people in the NFL and if you get this right, and Jones is washed out in 2 years, good for you, you got lucky.
How many QBs start off like gangbusters only to be reduced to backup status by their 5th year in the league? How many look ordinary through 2-3 years only to be title winning caliber by year 5-6?
It's not that some of you think Jones won't reach a high enough ceiling that is tough to stomach, it's that you lambast the Giants for doing what they should be doing. Let the kid play and allow for ample development before going in a different direction. You're all but spitting in the face of what teams have been doing for decades, inluding what this very franchise did with the last 2 legendary NYG QBs.
Oh, I am not supposed to bring up Simms and Eli? Yeah, fuck that noise. They are terrific comparisons. They both needed time to reach their potential and save me the horse shit of different eras.
look at Ryan Tannehill! He's a pro bowl caliber QB now. You want to say he won't win a title with the Titans? MAybe. But he's most definitely a damn good legit starting QB. His production the last 2 years obliterates any production he posted through his tenure in Miami.
Think Miami wants that decision back? They panicked. They couldn't wait to run Tannehill out of town and now they are left with nothing at QB.
look at Ryan Tannehill! He's a pro bowl caliber QB now. You want to say he won't win a title with the Titans? MAybe. But he's most definitely a damn good legit starting QB. His production the last 2 years obliterates any production he posted through his tenure in Miami.
Think Miami wants that decision back? They panicked. They couldn't wait to run Tannehill out of town and now they are left with nothing at QB.
It does happen.
In the same breadth you are preaching for patience, you're effectively calling Tua Tagovailoa nothing at BQ (6-3 record, 11TD:5INT, 3RTD:1 FMB)
If Tua is nothing, this is going to be a fun debate.
When a Sam Darnold thread or a Saquon Barkley thread becomes another referendum to hash out what happened in 2018 or 2019 and focuses more on Jones or the GM instead of the thread subjects, there's little fun to be had.
Just another chance for people to step in and repeat what they've said every day.
When a Sam Darnold thread or a Saquon Barkley thread becomes another referendum to hash out what happened in 2018 or 2019 and focuses more on Jones or the GM instead of the thread subjects, there's little fun to be had.
Just another chance for people to step in and repeat what they've said every day.
As always, you are welcome to not participate and not be missed.
Oh, I am not supposed to bring up Simms and Eli? Yeah, fuck that noise. They are terrific comparisons. They both needed time to reach their potential and save me the horse shit of different eras.
If you can't acknowledge the different era factor than you really aren't worth engaging on this. Because it's never been easier to play QB in the NFL. QBs are hitting the ground running because the pro game is more like the college game and the rules are very pro-offense. So the learning curve is much more shallow.
Concurrently, it's never been easier to play WR due to those same rule changes. So more WRs are hitting the ground running and continue to put him massive numbers.
When a Sam Darnold thread or a Saquon Barkley thread becomes another referendum to hash out what happened in 2018 or 2019 and focuses more on Jones or the GM instead of the thread subjects, there's little fun to be had.
Just another chance for people to step in and repeat what they've said every day.
I never got your address so I could send you the Kleenex. I'd like to send a mirror as well so you can starting looking at it.
where I differ on Jones versus others - expectations.
I don't hate Jones. But do think he was over-drafted.
Now that he's been handed the keys, however, I expect him to play like the 6th pick in the draft. Which is to be a great player. That's why these so called "experts" in the front office drafted him. Apparently they saw something I didn't. Okay, than let's lead the team to points and wins.
While I understand that Jones hasn't been dealt the best hand, I expect him to figure it and solve the problem. And everyday I wonder why the hell the rest of the board doesn't it view this similarly...
So I don't want to be patient with Jones because I see too many examples of other high drafted QBs who get it quickly.
lol. So what QB are you thinking would have been lights out on the Giants last year?
where I differ on Jones versus others - expectations.
I don't hate Jones. But do think he was over-drafted.
Now that he's been handed the keys, however, I expect him to play like the 6th pick in the draft. Which is to be a great player. That's why these so called "experts" in the front office drafted him. Apparently they saw something I didn't. Okay, than let's lead the team to points and wins.
While I understand that Jones hasn't been dealt the best hand, I expect him to figure it and solve the problem. And everyday I wonder why the hell the rest of the board doesn't it view this similarly...
So I don't want to be patient with Jones because I see too many examples of other high drafted QBs who get it quickly.
lol. So what QB are you thinking would have been lights out on the Giants last year?
Thanks for your question, it has been a tough 4+ years, that is just getting better. I went from losing a toe to MRSA in early 2017, to 4 months of eye shingles, to heart disease and a triple bypass, to 4 more bouts of MRSA. That's all over. Then, I had much-needed abdominal surgery last December, and am just recuperating from that, but will soon look as trim and athletic as I have in 35 years, easily. 73 years old, and I bench 180, press 120 and curl 90. Doctors say they don't see musculature like mine in 70+ year olds, even in most former pro athletes. (Perhaps the Giants could use me as a very wide receiver.)
And, I am back to writing part time on markets and policy, because my brain unscrambled when the other crap went away.
Now I am going through an amicable divorce. Busy life, just as Covid hopefully recedes.
if QBs ALWAYS showed their true peak or ceiling 10-20 or so games in and that was that, the QB position wouldn't be the most confounding position in PRO sports.
Referencing an kind of widely held concrete bedrock read on QB development is nothing short of impossible. Sitting here saying you know is hilarious. You don't. You're not a better judge of QBs than people in the NFL and if you get this right, and Jones is washed out in 2 years, good for you, you got lucky.
How many QBs start off like gangbusters only to be reduced to backup status by their 5th year in the league? How many look ordinary through 2-3 years only to be title winning caliber by year 5-6?
It's not that some of you think Jones won't reach a high enough ceiling that is tough to stomach, it's that you lambast the Giants for doing what they should be doing. Let the kid play and allow for ample development before going in a different direction. You're all but spitting in the face of what teams have been doing for decades, inluding what this very franchise did with the last 2 legendary NYG QBs.
Oh, I am not supposed to bring up Simms and Eli? Yeah, fuck that noise. They are terrific comparisons. They both needed time to reach their potential and save me the horse shit of different eras.
The league as a whole is getting more impatient, which is why whats been going on for decades is irrelevant to the conversation. The thread was (originally) about Darnold being traded due in large part because he didn't show enough in 3 years. Teams aren't going to be giving guys 5-6-7 years to develop any more.
When a Sam Darnold thread or a Saquon Barkley thread becomes another referendum to hash out what happened in 2018 or 2019 and focuses more on Jones or the GM instead of the thread subjects, there's little fun to be had.
Just another chance for people to step in and repeat what they've said every day.
As always, you are welcome to not participate and not be missed.
if QBs ALWAYS showed their true peak or ceiling 10-20 or so games in and that was that, the QB position wouldn't be the most confounding position in PRO sports.
Referencing an kind of widely held concrete bedrock read on QB development is nothing short of impossible. Sitting here saying you know is hilarious. You don't. You're not a better judge of QBs than people in the NFL and if you get this right, and Jones is washed out in 2 years, good for you, you got lucky.
How many QBs start off like gangbusters only to be reduced to backup status by their 5th year in the league? How many look ordinary through 2-3 years only to be title winning caliber by year 5-6?
It's not that some of you think Jones won't reach a high enough ceiling that is tough to stomach, it's that you lambast the Giants for doing what they should be doing. Let the kid play and allow for ample development before going in a different direction. You're all but spitting in the face of what teams have been doing for decades, inluding what this very franchise did with the last 2 legendary NYG QBs.
Oh, I am not supposed to bring up Simms and Eli? Yeah, fuck that noise. They are terrific comparisons. They both needed time to reach their potential and save me the horse shit of different eras.
The league as a whole is getting more impatient, which is why whats been going on for decades is irrelevant to the conversation. The thread was (originally) about Darnold being traded due in large part because he didn't show enough in 3 years. Teams aren't going to be giving guys 5-6-7 years to develop any more.
Scooter making this point on several threads lately and it is spot on.
Way too many here not listening and keep stepping in horse shit...
if QBs ALWAYS showed their true peak or ceiling 10-20 or so games in and that was that, the QB position wouldn't be the most confounding position in PRO sports.
Referencing an kind of widely held concrete bedrock read on QB development is nothing short of impossible. Sitting here saying you know is hilarious. You don't. You're not a better judge of QBs than people in the NFL and if you get this right, and Jones is washed out in 2 years, good for you, you got lucky.
How many QBs start off like gangbusters only to be reduced to backup status by their 5th year in the league? How many look ordinary through 2-3 years only to be title winning caliber by year 5-6?
It's not that some of you think Jones won't reach a high enough ceiling that is tough to stomach, it's that you lambast the Giants for doing what they should be doing. Let the kid play and allow for ample development before going in a different direction. You're all but spitting in the face of what teams have been doing for decades, inluding what this very franchise did with the last 2 legendary NYG QBs.
Oh, I am not supposed to bring up Simms and Eli? Yeah, fuck that noise. They are terrific comparisons. They both needed time to reach their potential and save me the horse shit of different eras.
The league as a whole is getting more impatient, which is why whats been going on for decades is irrelevant to the conversation. The thread was (originally) about Darnold being traded due in large part because he didn't show enough in 3 years. Teams aren't going to be giving guys 5-6-7 years to develop any more.
Scooter making this point on several threads lately and it is spot on.
Way too many here not listening and keep stepping in horse shit...
Actually I think I've only made the point in this thread 🤣
Good, keep making the same point every day if you would
Oh, I am not supposed to bring up Simms and Eli? Yeah, fuck that noise. They are terrific comparisons. They both needed time to reach their potential and save me the horse shit of different eras.
If you can't acknowledge the different era factor than you really aren't worth engaging on this. Because it's never been easier to play QB in the NFL. QBs are hitting the ground running because the pro game is more like the college game and the rules are very pro-offense. So the learning curve is much more shallow.
look at Ryan Tannehill! He's a pro bowl caliber QB now. You want to say he won't win a title with the Titans? MAybe. But he's most definitely a damn good legit starting QB. His production the last 2 years obliterates any production he posted through his tenure in Miami.
Think Miami wants that decision back? They panicked. They couldn't wait to run Tannehill out of town and now they are left with nothing at QB.
It does happen.
In the same breadth you are preaching for patience, you're effectively calling Tua Tagovailoa nothing at BQ (6-3 record, 11TD:5INT, 3RTD:1 FMB)
If Tua is nothing, this is going to be a fun debate.
that's really not the point. Would Miami like to go back and redo things? Tannenhill is a terrific QB now.
This is his year to show he belongs. I am expecting the Giants to get to the 375-400 yards total offense. 130+ rpg and 250 passing. Balance.
Jones needs to stay on the field, lower turnovers and hit those 12-15 yard passes in tight windows and to the sideline. Good NFL defenses are very good at taking away areas of the field and they are going to scheme to make Jones make these throws imo. I think they see he likes the deep ball and will scheme accordingly.
Oh, I am not supposed to bring up Simms and Eli? Yeah, fuck that noise. They are terrific comparisons. They both needed time to reach their potential and save me the horse shit of different eras.
If you can't acknowledge the different era factor than you really aren't worth engaging on this. Because it's never been easier to play QB in the NFL. QBs are hitting the ground running because the pro game is more like the college game and the rules are very pro-offense. So the learning curve is much more shallow.
Concurrently, it's never been easier to play WR due to those same rule changes. So more WRs are hitting the ground running and continue to put him massive numbers.
Right. So what about Ryan Tannenhill? What about Dak Prescott and how he went from merely productive and one that didn't screw things up (2016 -17) to insanely productive and indispensable (2019 and 2020 prior to injury) or how about someone like Mayfield? Didn't look so good in year 2 did he. Year 3 he's the cat's pajamas again. Are you going to tell me that Bills fans haven't gone from liking a player to going full bloom love for Josh Allen from years 1-2 to year 3-4? Really.
Conversely, what about the young up starts that turn into chicken shit by year 3-4? it goes both ways. The first 3-4 years of a QBs lifeline can be wacky, to say the least.
I give up. Friggin exhausting and not worth the time. Say with a straight face that every QB is a finished product after 2 years and anyone with a clue will laugh you out of the room.
Herbert is probably already a better player than Tannehill, and he's a lot cheaper.
Maybe so. I am not ready to put Herbert into canton just yet and you shouldn't either. Herbert had a nice rookie year. So did Daniel Jones, granted a little bit less productive.
And guess which QB is playing for a new HC this year...yep, that guy. Could be an interesting second year for Herbert. He could reach an even higher level or regress, statistically.
I think people would be more excited about Jones if his first and second seasons were reversed.
I'm skeptical/down on Jones but I can easily see a scenario where he puts up above-average numbers this year. I think Garrett's offense was awful for what Jones does well.
I've watched too much Darnold for a Giants fan the past three years - I think Jones is easily better. I see more potential in Jones than I've ever seen in Darnold.
it looked like regression from year's 1 to 2 but I think Jones played the best ball of his career over his last 8 games of 2020. I do get that concern though.
Herbert is probably already a better player than Tannehill, and he's a lot cheaper.
Maybe so. I am not ready to put Herbert into canton just yet and you shouldn't either. Herbert had a nice rookie year. So did Daniel Jones, granted a little bit less productive.
And guess which QB is playing for a new HC this year...yep, that guy. Could be an interesting second year for Herbert. He could reach an even higher level or regress, statistically.
Jones and Herbert did not have comparable rookie years.
RE: RE: RE: What Miami would do it's draft Herbert
Herbert is probably already a better player than Tannehill, and he's a lot cheaper.
Maybe so. I am not ready to put Herbert into canton just yet and you shouldn't either. Herbert had a nice rookie year. So did Daniel Jones, granted a little bit less productive.
And guess which QB is playing for a new HC this year...yep, that guy. Could be an interesting second year for Herbert. He could reach an even higher level or regress, statistically.
Jones and Herbert did not have comparable rookie years.
Agree. they are not comparable in any way. Herbert flashed a stunning skill set. He is far ahead of Jones, imo. Much bigger arm. Much better athlete.
Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
The fumbling was not corrected. He fumbled 6 times in the last 6 games. Or if you prefer, 4 times in the last 3.
He led the league with 11 fumbles.
I said mostly corrected. He dropped it from 18 to 11 and yeah I AGREE that still needs to improve. So I overstated with "mostly" corrected. I don't hear you killing Lamar Jackson, who only had one less for the year. Why is that?
Comparably in 2020:
Derek Carr 11
Daniel Jones 11
Taysom Hill 10
Lamar Jackson 10
Carson Wentz 10
Josh Allen 9
Joe Burrow 9
Kirk Cousins 9
Jalen Hurts 9
Kyler Murray 9
Justin Herbert 8
Drew Lock 8
Baker Mayfield 8
Deshaun Watson 8
Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
that get it wrong like you talking about his fumbles.
The discussion is old but has to keep being brought up by posters like Jimmy Clownshoes.
The "why" behind that is more telling. What does talking about fumbles in April mean when the QB will be the QB going into the season and he's going to get another year no matter how many times people want to scream that he sucks.
Clowshoes make annoying sounds. Just like Jimmy Boy and his rotating stable of handles.
Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
Because you happened to guess right? No fucking way.
Christian covered that above. It's because Jackson is a better player than Jones by an order of magnitude.
You may be right, but how do you think Lamar Jackson looks on last years Giants?
Significantly better than Jones, and almost certainly the division champion.
Maybe. Better? Likely. Significantly? Not sure I can agree with that. He would have been getting hit a SHIT TON more than he did in Baltimore that's for sure. I think Lamar Jacksons success has as much to do with the situation and Harbaugh. If NY Giants drafted Jackson I would bet good money people are calling him a bust right about now. And I like Jackson, I liked him coming out.
We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
RE: RE: The discussion isn’t old. What’s old is posters
that get it wrong like you talking about his fumbles.
The discussion is old but has to keep being brought up by posters like Jimmy Clownshoes.
The "why" behind that is more telling. What does talking about fumbles in April mean when the QB will be the QB going into the season and he's going to get another year no matter how many times people want to scream that he sucks.
Clowshoes make annoying sounds. Just like Jimmy Boy and his rotating stable of handles.
I didn’t bring it up. But have no issues discussing things about the starting QB of the Giants. You know because it’s a fan discussion board.
And you just continue to embarrass yourself looking for certain posters to follow around and call them names. You can tell when you are getting annoyed as the bullying and name calling intensifies itself. And then you soon look for that trap door.
We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
For sure. Although IIRC
Jones scored consistently over 20 pts in what looked like a better offense in his rookie year. Well, better suited offense to him anyway. We know the Giants were a mess for way too many years now. And I don't absolve Gettleman at all, but I really feel like we are on the upswing with Judge. And that goes for player eval, FA signing, drafting, and most importantly coaching. I still have my fears about Garrett and the OL, and I really don't think anyone should be counting on Barkley this season but if the OL stabilizes a bit more I think we will see a very good QB in Jones. We'll see.. we will know one way or the other that's for sure. And GT I know you are glass half empty on it but thanks for at least having a reasonable discussion.
The record is what it is, the points per game are what they are, Jones's stats are what they are. If they were better, I'd be saying better things about him.
I had an attachment to the players from 05-11, Eli especially. Those guys have us a lot of great, happy moments that we'll remember forever. As such I gave as lot of them (especially Eli) the benefit of the doubt.
I don't feel attached to any of these players. They've only delivered bad, losing football. Until they do better, they're not getting any more benefit of the doubt from me than I would give any other team.
I don't think that's glass half empty. I think that's just fair.
We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
For sure. Although IIRC
Jones scored consistently over 20 pts in what looked like a better offense in his rookie year. Well, better suited offense to him anyway. We know the Giants were a mess for way too many years now. And I don't absolve Gettleman at all, but I really feel like we are on the upswing with Judge. And that goes for player eval, FA signing, drafting, and most importantly coaching. I still have my fears about Garrett and the OL, and I really don't think anyone should be counting on Barkley this season but if the OL stabilizes a bit more I think we will see a very good QB in Jones. We'll see.. we will know one way or the other that's for sure. And GT I know you are glass half empty on it but thanks for at least having a reasonable discussion.
Hey Johnny good post. I have same thoughts and views actually.
We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
For sure. Although IIRC
Jones scored consistently over 20 pts in what looked like a better offense in his rookie year. Well, better suited offense to him anyway. We know the Giants were a mess for way too many years now. And I don't absolve Gettleman at all, but I really feel like we are on the upswing with Judge. And that goes for player eval, FA signing, drafting, and most importantly coaching. I still have my fears about Garrett and the OL, and I really don't think anyone should be counting on Barkley this season but if the OL stabilizes a bit more I think we will see a very good QB in Jones. We'll see.. we will know one way or the other that's for sure. And GT I know you are glass half empty on it but thanks for at least having a reasonable discussion.
Hey Johnny good post. I have same thoughts and views actually.
did a good job creating situations for Jones. He was coaching for his job. He has been very good at times as a OC. The line was a little better and is was the second year for the players other than Jones.
Judge is building a team for long term success. He gave clues of this in some of his comments last season. He said they made it hard on Jones. The rotating line.
The hope is the offense has more talent, the staff understands Jones strengths and liabilities and will create on offense that's tailored better to success for him. Long term those liabilities have to be addressed though or it will be exposed against the better defenses. They will find a better balance between the two I believe.
Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
Because you happened to guess right? No fucking way.
Didn't think so.
So I'd Jones lights it up you get to say "i told you so" but of be doesn't you don't have to own up to being wrong.
Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
Because you happened to guess right? No fucking way.
Didn't think so.
So I'd Jones lights it up you get to say "i told you so" but of be doesn't you don't have to own up to being wrong.
Must be nice
We're all just expressing our opinions here. Some of us will be right, others wrong. These things are highly random. Nobody needs an apology. But a nod in the direction of the guys who got it right, would be nice.
We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
For sure. Although IIRC
Jones scored consistently over 20 pts in what looked like a better offense in his rookie year. Well, better suited offense to him anyway. We know the Giants were a mess for way too many years now. And I don't absolve Gettleman at all, but I really feel like we are on the upswing with Judge. And that goes for player eval, FA signing, drafting, and most importantly coaching. I still have my fears about Garrett and the OL, and I really don't think anyone should be counting on Barkley this season but if the OL stabilizes a bit more I think we will see a very good QB in Jones. We'll see.. we will know one way or the other that's for sure. And GT I know you are glass half empty on it but thanks for at least having a reasonable discussion.
Hey Johnny good post. I have same thoughts and views actually.
Is that all of us are half right his entire career
actually i think it is more likely there will be something conclusive. Most QBs in his spot either make it or don't. Trubisky, Mariota, Osweiler, Winston, come to mind as QBs that failed. Carr and Cousins come to mind as a QBs that have sort of succeeded, though they are probably not elite.
I can understand that perspective. Another question, what would you think of Jones rookie year with say, half the fumbles?
I still wouldn't feel good. The AY/A was very low (6.46), indicating (along with the low points/game) a general lack of effectiveness. It was the same way at Duke, too...
We were told he was not the most physically talented, but as polished and NFL ready as a college prospect could be. That wasn't the case. He really had a hard time reading the game in 2019, and that showed again in 2020.
I keep coming back to Sy's scouting report: "There isn't a quick mind here."
Jones has fatal flaws to his game (poor pocket presence, slow loopy release, inability to read defenses pre and post snap) that you don't go to the NFL to fix.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
Because you happened to guess right? No fucking way.
Didn't think so.
So I'd Jones lights it up you get to say "i told you so" but of be doesn't you don't have to own up to being wrong.
Must be nice
We're all just expressing our opinions here. Some of us will be right, others wrong. These things are highly random. Nobody needs an apology. But a nod in the direction of the guys who got it right, would be nice.
Agree with that. I'm not arrogant enough about my football knowledge to throw it in other peoples faces when I'm right about these kinds of things. I would be happy to give anyone a nod if there predictions are accurate and hopefully you guys will do the same.
Look I think for the most part we are all somewhere slightly left or right of center on Jones. I am one of the more optimistic ones, but I don't claim that I absolutely know better. It's really just the absolutes that he is not the guy, I mean I am fine with that opinion but the fighting about it in absolutes is what I guess drives me a little nutty.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
Because you happened to guess right? No fucking way.
Didn't think so.
So I'd Jones lights it up you get to say "i told you so" but of be doesn't you don't have to own up to being wrong.
Must be nice
We're all just expressing our opinions here. Some of us will be right, others wrong. These things are highly random. Nobody needs an apology. But a nod in the direction of the guys who got it right, would be nice.
Agree with that. I'm not arrogant enough about my football knowledge to throw it in other peoples faces when I'm right about these kinds of things. I would be happy to give anyone a nod if there predictions are accurate and hopefully you guys will do the same.
Look I think for the most part we are all somewhere slightly left or right of center on Jones. I am one of the more optimistic ones, but I don't claim that I absolutely know better. It's really just the absolutes that he is not the guy, I mean I am fine with that opinion but the fighting about it in absolutes is what I guess drives me a little nutty.
Yes. And even the people who *know* are just making a better educated guess. There's no real science to this. Or in my opinion, any real art. It is subject to probabilities.
every one of these "fatal flaws" have actually been called a strength of his by analysts
Quote:
Jones has fatal flaws to his game (poor pocket presence, slow loopy release, inability to read defenses pre and post snap) that you don't go to the NFL to fix.
"Poor pocket presence"?? He had one of the highest completion % of QB's under duress
"Slow loopy release"?? I know you tried to show a still picture of him holding the ball low which was a ridiculous attempt to say his mechanics are poor, but his release has been called a strength. Just listen to some of what Bobby Skinner says.
"Inability to read defenses pre and post snap"?? Do you have anything to back up this "fatal flaw"?
You really just seemingly throw shit against the wall with Jones. At first, it was serially reciting his stats. Now, you're just creating things out of thin air.
Again the question at hand is - "Why"??
If these are all strengths, then why didn’t Jones have a strong year?
every one of these "fatal flaws" have actually been called a strength of his by analysts
Quote:
Jones has fatal flaws to his game (poor pocket presence, slow loopy release, inability to read defenses pre and post snap) that you don't go to the NFL to fix.
"Poor pocket presence"?? He had one of the highest completion % of QB's under duress
"Slow loopy release"?? I know you tried to show a still picture of him holding the ball low which was a ridiculous attempt to say his mechanics are poor, but his release has been called a strength. Just listen to some of what Bobby Skinner says.
"Inability to read defenses pre and post snap"?? Do you have anything to back up this "fatal flaw"?
You really just seemingly throw shit against the wall with Jones. At first, it was serially reciting his stats. Now, you're just creating things out of thin air.
Again the question at hand is - "Why"??
well i would love to see your link for that high comp pct under duress. Did it come at the cost of Y/A? I searched for this stat and can't find it. It is an exotic stat to be sure, based on subjective viewing, something you have criticized PFF for doing.
RE: RE: RE: If these are all strengths, then why didn’t Jones have a strong year?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
So you're saying Gettleman did a bad job putting the roster together. See, we can agree on something.
I actually have been saying that for awhile which makes it humorous when I'm called a Gettleman supporter.
There's a difference between being a Gettleman supporter and a person who rails against Terrible Hot Takes. Hard to see the difference when you are full of them.
RE: RE: If these are all strengths, then why didn’t Jones have a strong year?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
But why does Jones have a poor OL and poor WRs? Sure, Barkley got hurt but that’s what happens to a lot of RBs. Surely this isn’t the first RB to get injured and they have backups to step up. And in fact Gallman and the others did reasonably well.
Why fmic..why didn’t Jones’ strengths show through? And why aren’t those other offensive players better? Why?
RE: RE: RE: RE: If these are all strengths, then why didn’t Jones have a strong year?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
So you're saying Gettleman did a bad job putting the roster together. See, we can agree on something.
I actually have been saying that for awhile which makes it humorous when I'm called a Gettleman supporter.
There's a difference between being a Gettleman supporter and a person who rails against Terrible Hot Takes. Hard to see the difference when you are full of them.
You’ve been saying Gettleman did a bad job??
Hold on...the site must not be working correctly. It’s actually changing your posts when you hit Submit...
I think people would be more excited about Jones if his first and second seasons were reversed.
I'm skeptical/down on Jones but I can easily see a scenario where he puts up above-average numbers this year. I think Garrett's offense was awful for what Jones does well.
I've watched too much Darnold for a Giants fan the past three years - I think Jones is easily better. I see more potential in Jones than I've ever seen in Darnold.
I think you are onto something with your first point. Jones flashed more in '19 and seemed to make more big plays. Aside from the big run versus Philly, I really can't recall any signature plays for Jones in '20. So if the seasons were flipped, the mood around here might indeed be more bullish.
We differ on Garrett. He's really setting up to be a fall guy. You don't call the gem he called against Tampa last year and say he doesn't what he's doing. So I'm putting the pullback with the offense in '20 in this order (1) Jones, (2) OL/Barkley injury and (3) new offense for everyone.
Darnold is a weird one for me. The "seeing ghosts" comment was a horrible red flag. But he does make some very high level throws that are indicative of some high level ability. And, of course, the Jet factor messes up a fair evaluation as well. The best thing that could happen for him is that he gets a new opportunity in Carolina.
I feel like he is an average GM at this point. His drafts have been decent, and he's had some hits and misses in FA. He clearly relies on the coaching staff to tell him what they need (I am basing this on the Bettcher / AZ player signings) And that's not a bad thing if you have a coach that knows what he wants (and is actually worth his salt). I feel like he is working well with Judge, and I really trust Judge at this point, so I'm OK with him sticking around.
Shurmur was a bad hire. And most of his staff was, awful. It's kind of a tie for me between him and MacAdoo on level of suck... lol
I am bullish enough on what I have seen of Judge and Jones, as well as how FA agency has been going. If we have a good draft I fell that we are going to have a good season. We certainly shall see.
Right. So what about Ryan Tannenhill? What about Dak Prescott and how he went from merely productive and one that didn't screw things up (2016 -17) to insanely productive and indispensable (2019 and 2020 prior to injury) or how about someone like Mayfield? Didn't look so good in year 2 did he. Year 3 he's the cat's pajamas again. Are you going to tell me that Bills fans haven't gone from liking a player to going full bloom love for Josh Allen from years 1-2 to year 3-4? Really.
Conversely, what about the young up starts that turn into chicken shit by year 3-4? it goes both ways. The first 3-4 years of a QBs lifeline can be wacky, to say the least.
I give up. Friggin exhausting and not worth the time. Say with a straight face that every QB is a finished product after 2 years and anyone with a clue will laugh you out of the room.
Are you sure about that Dak comment? He was 23/4 TD/INT in his first year at 77 QBR. Slight pullback to a 70 QBR his sophomore year (22/13). But those two years crush Jones's first two. I mean, it's not even close. Futhermore, Dak was a 4th round draft choice, not the 6th pick.
I sort of get Tannehill, but at least he flipped the script on TD/INTs year over year. First year, he was 12/13, but improved to 24/17 in his second year and kept his YPA around the same 6.7/8.
What about Mayfield? He threw 49 TDs passes his first two years combined and had a very healthy YPA over 7 each year (did pull back in year two). His QBRs aren't impressive but at least he was scoring points.
We've been down this path before with Josh Allen. He has improved every year with this third year the peak. But he was scoring points and was a HUGE asset in the run game. In his first two years, he scored 17 rushing TDs. And added 7 more in '20. While he's been erratic throwing, that running ability has to be included.
I'm not saying Jones can't improve. But I just don't feel great about it because his effort was so dull and listless in '20.
It was posted here a couple of days ago(not by me). When I get a chance to find it, I'll link it. Or you can take some initiative and find it on your own.
It has been posted along with his completion % on downfield throws.
RE: RE: RE: If these are all strengths, then why didn’t Jones have a strong year?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
So you're saying Gettleman did a bad job putting the roster together. See, we can agree on something.
Well, at one point he had the best WR in football who hit every one of the superlatives your require, and you bitched Gettleman out for building a roster with him on it.
Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
See this is exactly why I firmly believe that on this site it is more important to some to be proven correct than if the team does well
I have no issue with people thinking DJ isn't the long term answer. I tend to agree. But unlike some, I hope I'm wrong. Some posters seem so intent on being right that they unconsciously are rooting for his failure &, in turn, the Giants failure. That bothers me.
All of us are sick of watching trash football. I, for one, hope DJ lights it up this fall & we make the playoffs. That's what's most important to me.
I have no issue with people thinking DJ isn't the long term answer. I tend to agree. But unlike some, I hope I'm wrong. Some posters seem so intent on being right that they unconsciously are rooting for his failure &, in turn, the Giants failure. That bothers me.
All of us are sick of watching trash football. I, for one, hope DJ lights it up this fall & we make the playoffs. That's what's most important to me.
You're probably right. I was being kind. I think some are actively rooting against him because of another chance to dunk on Gettleman. And I'm no DG fan either!
It's just weak sauce to root against a guy because you have some agenda. We should all want every Giant to succeed no?
If your reference Dak you should mention he had 3 all pro OL and the number one rushing team both those years. That type of production creates a lot of easy throws with often simple reads.
Mayfield has also had a lot more talent. Cleveland may have had the best OL in the league yet they were awfully gun shy about throwing downfield.
I like Allen. I’ll like him better if does it again with a reloaded Pats team and improved Dolphins and maybe the Jets as well. He has a lot more to prove imo.
I am definitely concerned with Jones but he has had a very poor supporting cast and with two offenses. We will learn a lot this year.
RE: RE: RE: If these are all strengths, then why didn’t Jones have a strong year?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
But why does Jones have a poor OL and poor WRs? Sure, Barkley got hurt but that’s what happens to a lot of RBs. Surely this isn’t the first RB to get injured and they have backups to step up. And in fact Gallman and the others did reasonably well.
Why fmic..why didn’t Jones’ strengths show through? And why aren’t those other offensive players better? Why?
I have no issue with people thinking DJ isn't the long term answer. I tend to agree. But unlike some, I hope I'm wrong. Some posters seem so intent on being right that they unconsciously are rooting for his failure &, in turn, the Giants failure. That bothers me.
All of us are sick of watching trash football. I, for one, hope DJ lights it up this fall & we make the playoffs. That's what's most important to me.
It's pretty clear. In fact I noticed when we signed Golladay there was a subluminal dash of what I'd call disappointment in some comments because they subconsciously realize there is a very good possibility he didn't throw many TDs last year because our offense as a whole was trash. I can't believe people spend a ton of time here in the offseason tbh, how many times can you rehash the same damn convo?
This covert secret agenda of hating players because Gettleman acquired them is the funniest thing I’ve read on BBI in years.
Where’s the secret hatred for Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, Lawrence, and Gates?
Is it a ruse to put you guys off our trail, or might it be the guys who play and perform consistently are appreciated?
I don’t think that you’re one of the posters they are referring to. You’re typically pretty reasonable and balanced. So it’s kind of weird that you used “Is it a ruse to put you guys off OUR trail..”. Who”s “OUR”?
RE: RE: RE: RE: If these are all strengths, then why didn’t Jones have a strong year?
We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
Terps, the one key factor you don't mention is how when it comes down to the playoffs Jackson stinks.
He has a 56% completion rate, 3 TD passes, 5 INTs, 1 rushing TD, 5 fumbles, and 1-2 in the playoffs. So while his regular season stats look good, in the real meaningful games he has been putrid
If your reference Dak you should mention he had 3 all pro OL and the number one rushing team both those years. That type of production creates a lot of easy throws with often simple reads.
Mayfield has also had a lot more talent. Cleveland may have had the best OL in the league yet they were awfully gun shy about throwing downfield.
I like Allen. I’ll like him better if does it again with a reloaded Pats team and improved Dolphins and maybe the Jets as well. He has a lot more to prove imo.
I am definitely concerned with Jones but he has had a very poor supporting cast and with two offenses. We will learn a lot this year.
Re: Dak. It is certainly true he stepped into a more positive situation. But QBR attempts to smooth that out by taking into account the situation of the each play - time to throw, the depth of the pass, the accuracy of the pass, if the QB ran the ball, quality of the opponent, etc. It's not a flawless approach, but I think it's one of the more reliable metric (YPA, too). So for Dak to produce 70+ QBRs in his first two years was pretty damn impressive.
I've never been a Mayfield guy. I thought he had bust written all over him. And as the number one pick he's under a lot more pressure. But he has impressed me. In his rookie year he finished 10th in YPA at 7.7, so he was going down field. And he's been 7+ in YPA for all three years. On the other hand, his QBR was in the 50s until it popped this year with a 72. So he's a mixed bag.
I thought Allen was tremendous this past year, and too many posters just don't get his progression right. He's been on the ascent from YR1. But he wasn't impressive in the playoffs this year so I think that is something to keep an eye on.
With the new additions, what are you expectations for Jones this year?
This covert secret agenda of hating players because Gettleman acquired them is the funniest thing I’ve read on BBI in years.
Where’s the secret hatred for Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, Lawrence, and Gates?
Is it a ruse to put you guys off our trail, or might it be the guys who play and perform consistently are appreciated?
I don’t think that you’re one of the posters they are referring to. You’re typically pretty reasonable and balanced. So it’s kind of weird that you used “Is it a ruse to put you guys off OUR trail..”. Who”s “OUR”?
Thanks BBS, back at you.
From time-to-time me criticizing players has been bucketed under the mysterious motives category by a certain poster : )
Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
See this is exactly why I firmly believe that on this site it is more important to some to be proven correct than if the team does well
If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
Terps, the one key factor you don't mention is how when it comes down to the playoffs Jackson stinks.
He has a 56% completion rate, 3 TD passes, 5 INTs, 1 rushing TD, 5 fumbles, and 1-2 in the playoffs. So while his regular season stats look good, in the real meaningful games he has been putrid
So if 4 games means Jackson sucks, can we use 26 games to ascertain that Jones REALLY sucks?
If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
That's an interesting point in your second paragraph. There is quite a bit of "score keeping" that goes on at BBI and it's mostly by those who find any criticism of the Giants to be an act of treason. If posters don't see the Giants doing well, despite reasoned analysis, they are viewed in the same light as investors shorting stocks. And unfortunately labeled as rooting against the team.
If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
That's an interesting point in your second paragraph. There is quite a bit of "score keeping" that goes on at BBI and it's mostly by those who find any criticism of the Giants to be an act of treason. If posters don't see the Giants doing well, despite reasoned analysis, they are viewed in the same light as investors shorting stocks. And unfortunately labeled as rooting against the team.
You describe it in a colorful way. I'd love to do a psych paper on this mentality.
If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
That's an interesting point in your second paragraph. There is quite a bit of "score keeping" that goes on at BBI and it's mostly by those who find any criticism of the Giants to be an act of treason. If posters don't see the Giants doing well, despite reasoned analysis, they are viewed in the same light as investors shorting stocks. And unfortunately labeled as rooting against the team.
I can never figure out if you model yourself after Eddie Haskell or if it’s the other way around.
I think people would be more excited about Jones if his first and second seasons were reversed.
I'm skeptical/down on Jones but I can easily see a scenario where he puts up above-average numbers this year. I think Garrett's offense was awful for what Jones does well.
I've watched too much Darnold for a Giants fan the past three years - I think Jones is easily better. I see more potential in Jones than I've ever seen in Darnold.
I think you are onto something with your first point. Jones flashed more in '19 and seemed to make more big plays. Aside from the big run versus Philly, I really can't recall any signature plays for Jones in '20. So if the seasons were flipped, the mood around here might indeed be more bullish.
We differ on Garrett. He's really setting up to be a fall guy. You don't call the gem he called against Tampa last year and say he doesn't what he's doing. So I'm putting the pullback with the offense in '20 in this order (1) Jones, (2) OL/Barkley injury and (3) new offense for everyone.
Darnold is a weird one for me. The "seeing ghosts" comment was a horrible red flag. But he does make some very high level throws that are indicative of some high level ability. And, of course, the Jet factor messes up a fair evaluation as well. The best thing that could happen for him is that he gets a new opportunity in Carolina.
I don't think Garrett is incompetent. And I should have been more clear, it looked to me like Garrett deviated from offenses he had in Dallas. I think Jones is always going to be a bit of a turnover machine and that Garrett's offense was 'game manager-esque' for the QB. That's not what Jones does well and I don't think he'll ever do it well. I abhor making the Eli comparisons, but Eli always turned the ball over a lot as well. Jones throws a good deep ball. Can run but doesn't make the seamless transition to running that Jackson/Wilson/Murray do. There's tools to work with.
I can see a case where the OL is near average and Jones is able to put it together with his improved weapons. I say this as someone who thinks Jones really, really sucked last year (caveats be damned, no one thinks he had good weapons, lol).
Talking about the state of the team is just a natural viewpoint. Nobody likes that the Giants haven’t done well lately, and the hope is that they will improve. But to point out their struggles, even daily, is not out of line. It’s what happens.
If you are a fan/poster that only wants to see optimistic thoughts or even balanced thoughts then you are on the wrong site. This board brings it all, so expect it. If you want to fight it...fine. But that is a silly battle because you know how that likely ends.
Post your opinion. Debate or even argue others. But to show such disdain in others that you have to resort to name calling, bullying, or ridiculing is simply telling us all how bad you are at even being a simple poster. I can make you seem like comic relief every day, but you actually do a pretty good job all by yourself...
We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
Terps, the one key factor you don't mention is how when it comes down to the playoffs Jackson stinks.
He has a 56% completion rate, 3 TD passes, 5 INTs, 1 rushing TD, 5 fumbles, and 1-2 in the playoffs. So while his regular season stats look good, in the real meaningful games he has been putrid
So if 4 games means Jackson sucks, can we use 26 games to ascertain that Jones REALLY sucks?
They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
See this is exactly why I firmly believe that on this site it is more important to some to be proven correct than if the team does well
If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
Are you looking for an apology or a Giants season of progress?
See the problem with your take is that there are a few on here looking for the former more than the latter, to the point where even if there is progress the negative will be seized on regardless.
They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
I'd rather have a guy who gets me to the playoffs than a guy who is 8-18. Jones hasn't even beaten a winning team, let alone been to the playoffs.
And for the record I'm not rooting for Jones to fail. However, I do acknowledge that Jones wasn't drafted by Judge. Jones was drafted through the Gettleman's flawed methodology...the very methodology that has ALL of us relieved that Judge seems to be gaining power in personnel decisions.
I am rooting for Jones to succeed. But I'm also rooting for the Giants to be open to the possibility (in my mind, the strong likelihood) that that is not going to happen.
Rooting for Jones to be good isn't going to make him good.
A recent 1st round QB, in his 2nd year, in a new system went:
7-6, 19TD/13INT, 6.9YPA — his offense struggled to score points.
Media, fans, etc. looked at the mediocre line, lack of fire power at the skill positions, a few injuries — pretty good chance he turns it around in year 3, right?
Moral of the story, there’s no guarantee. Sometimes it doesn’t work. Good to keep your eyes wide open as an organization, and not assume much.
They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
I'd rather have a guy who gets me to the playoffs than a guy who is 8-18. Jones hasn't even beaten a winning team, let alone been to the playoffs.
And for the record I'm not rooting for Jones to fail. However, I do acknowledge that Jones wasn't drafted by Judge. Jones was drafted through the Gettleman's flawed methodology...the very methodology that has ALL of us relieved that Judge seems to be gaining power in personnel decisions.
I am rooting for Jones to succeed. But I'm also rooting for the Giants to be open to the possibility (in my mind, the strong likelihood) that that is not going to happen.
Rooting for Jones to be good isn't going to make him good.
Ok, answer this honestly, how would you rate Jacksons surrounding cast vs Jones surrounding cast? We both know that Jacksons "team" is a lot better than what Jones had
And getting to the playoffs and shitting the bed is not what any fan wants out of their QB. Holy shit he was the QB of a 14-2 team and got his ass kicked at home in their very first playoff game. His stats in the playoffs are every bit as bad if not worse than Daniel Jones stats as far as TO's go in the playoffs and that's not even debatable
"His stats in the playoffs are every bit as bad if not worse than Daniel Jones stats as far as TO's go in the playoffs and that's not even debatable"
So Jackson has performed as poorly in four playoff games as Jones has in his 26 career starts?
Is that supposed to make us feel better about Jones?
Terps, you never answered my point about the surrounding cast.
And if you can't acknowledge the fact that in his most important games Jackson chokes like he's eaten a tortilla sideways then you're not being completely straight with regards to your take on him.
You want to use a 2-year QB's stats on a team with horrid personal. Ignore all the key injuries to his playmakers. Brush off his O-Line debacle. While at the same time claiming the second coming of Jesus during the regular season should be given a mulligan for his despicable postseason play, is disingenuous at best.
Why always assume the other offensive players are letting down the QB? I think it’s the other way around.
This is a facet of Jones game that we really haven’t talked much about. But I think it’s fair to say we haven’t seen Jones make anyone on the offense better than we expected them to be. And with every facet of the offense failing, it’s certainly fair to wonder if that’s because the most important piece of the unit isn’t up to the task. Since this is a thread about Darnold it’s probably fair to say that about him too. It’ll be an interesting season for both QBs. Sink or swim boys. Sink or swim.
Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
See this is exactly why I firmly believe that on this site it is more important to some to be proven correct than if the team does well
If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
Are you looking for an apology or a Giants season of progress?
See the problem with your take is that there are a few on here looking for the former more than the latter, to the point where even if there is progress the negative will be seized on regardless.
My initial reply was to a post saying he wants to "shove [Jones being the guy] in" our faces.
My point, which I believe has been proven, is that if DJ doesn't step up, there's not going to be posts saying "sorry for being trash towards you for the last 3 years, Terps/BW/etc"
The only difference between one "side" and what you accuse the other of is the results on the field, the motivation is the same.
I think he has a big hill to climb but he has been handed a very challenging set of circumstances. Take a look at the better QB's the last 20 years (Brady, Peyton, Eli, Rivers, Big Ben, etc.) What you will find is that in every case they had balanced offenses. Their coaches prioritized protecting them. Some played in run first offenses. Some were more balanced but they all had good running games. You have to help them fake it till they make it and each QB has their timeline getting to that point and it can take years imo. But you see signs. Right now we have not seen enough signs from Jones imo but I am being hopeful with improvements on the OL, WR, TE's we see more. Those handful of throws each game that make you go "We may have something here"
I think Jones really needs confidence. He seems unsure in the pocket. Is he panicked? Confused? Overwhelmed? Who knows. Set your feet, make a sound decision and let it rip downfield or check it down. I have concerns with his ability to make the deep throws to the sideline that have to be on a line and where true arm talent shows its worth. He needs to protect himself. Availability is a big factor as a QB.
I think the Giants staff is committed to helping him more. Heavy run offense, better down/distance (which has been the biggest factor for like a decade) and simplifying reads at times. Hopefully having more success gets him to the point of just trusting his reads and letting it rip. I hope it works out.
What happened to Brady when under pressure especially up the middle.
What happened to Mahomes when under pressure up the middle.
What happened to Montana under pressure.
We saw Eli's timing fall apart post 2012 under time pressure.
But some how Jones is supposed to overcome the reality of QB play and block, catch and throw?
I'm not convinced by Jones yet but that's because I don't know yet. I don't get many of the so called posts of obvious expertise and certainty.
And I don't see any apologies for accidentally being right or wrong or in between.
And I don't see guys who value being right over being balanced and waiting to see it play out. I see guys who love to argue more than be right, wise, open or balanced.
But that's just one person's opinion and nothing more
1) Jones' pocket movement skills are subpar, and not just for a starter, but for any competent QB with an NFL roster spot. He makes the OL look worse than it is because of both bad instincts and the fact that he hasn't responded to the years of training he has received. Note how much better the OL looked in the Seattle and Cleveland games with McCoy starting. The opposition registered 2.5 sacks across the two games - and the Browns D is good - for a sack rate of about 5% of drop backs. Jones averaged just under 10% in terms of sack rate as % of pass attempts. Both the eye test and the stats shows that McCoy - a well-trained pocket QB - really cut down on the level of pressure. Jones makes his OL look worse than they are.
2) Jones' timing is all off. I started paying attention to that after the controversy about that blown goal line pass where many posters thought Jones delivered the ball late. It's absolutely a flaw in Jones' game. Watch the footage - he is constantly delivering the ball a fraction of a second late. With the speed of NFL's secondary, that changes a run after catch situation into a contested catch or zero yards after reception situation. I think there are multiple causes behind Jones' problems in this area, which have all been covered, so fixing them isn't just a matter of improving in one area, it involves multiple fundamental changes.
3) Jones isn't a particularly accurate passer. He has his moments, but there are a fair number of passes that, even if they are recorded as on target in the advanced stats, sure don't make it easy on the receiver. Looked at statistically, though, Jones is not a plus-accuracy QB like Mahomes. That also needs work.
Wow, I am a Jones pessimist but putting together that list convinces me there are so many things he needs to dramatically improve on that the problems will be unsurmountable. He is simply not a good football player right now. Someone like Darius Slayton is just a much better player than Jones - so I get sensitive about all this blaming the skill players stuff.
but that OL pressure is also being caused by Jones' poor pocket skills. I'll use a big word - the Giants offensive failures are "overdetermined" and it's overoptimistic to think it's just the QB being let down rather than the other way around.
RE: I think Jones is making his supporting cast worse.
Why always assume the other offensive players are letting down the QB? I think it’s the other way around.
Can't agree with that. How many passes did he put right in the hands or the numbers of Evan Engram only for him to drop or tip off his fingers and end up as an INT? The supporting cast has been brutal for the most part.
I could not separate and correlate Jones from the growing pains in front of him. Times when Thomas, Zeitler, Gates or Hernandez or lemieux didn't get it fluctuate during the season with times Jones was just coming back or times when Shepard or Tate or Engram or Stayton or Barkley was not there physically or mentally.
It was a mess and important conclusions don't often come from staring at a bowl of angel hair pasta.
I agree Jones was sometimes an unindicted co conspirator in the mess but I can't claim enough isolated clear views to jump to conclusions like "he stinks" and "time to move on now"
I agree. It's a mess where every player is likely underperforming. My point is that blindly attributing the problems to the skill players or the OL is reductive and ignores the observable way Jones is harming his teammates.
There's actually a psychological bias here - call it the "big man" syndrome where organizational failures are blamed on the supporting cast rather than the leader. It's good for me to be self-conscious about this bias and make sure I try to approach the situation analytically.
Do I know what the hell Garrets offensive approach really was before or after the season and injuries.
Did the guy execute well on junky plans? Or execute poorly possibly winning strategies?
I'm going to suspect the former
he famously botched some simple plays. The two point conversion at the end of the TB game comes to mind. excellent play design, awful throw. I'm not sure why you would blame Garrett, over Jones.
...I would suggest that there is likely several places/people that need to improve in order for the offense to progress. Jones included.
I agree with Bill that I don't see DJ as the no brainer "it's all his fault" guy.
I am really looking forward to 2021 because I have seen enough to know that Jones has all of the tangibles. Hopefully the processing improves, along with the personnel around him.
I agree that phenomenon exists in human reporting about organizational failures. The learned cynicism of a lifetime has us both being suspicious that is at play here as well.
I do agree he is not yet as well trained or sound on the basics as the NYG or Cutcliffe cult wishes us to accept as a truism.
My initial reply was to a post saying he wants to "shove [Jones being the guy] in" our faces.
My point, which I believe has been proven, is that if DJ doesn't step up, there's not going to be posts saying "sorry for being trash towards you for the last 3 years, Terps/BW/etc"
The only difference between one "side" and what you accuse the other of is the results on the field, the motivation is the same.
You clearly did not fully read my post and are basing what you are saying off of incorrect assumptions. This is EXACTLY what I said:
"with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it MAKES ME WANT HIM to shove it in your faces more and more."
My initial reply was to a post saying he wants to "shove [Jones being the guy] in" our faces.
My point, which I believe has been proven, is that if DJ doesn't step up, there's not going to be posts saying "sorry for being trash towards you for the last 3 years, Terps/BW/etc"
The only difference between one "side" and what you accuse the other of is the results on the field, the motivation is the same.
You clearly did not fully read my post and are basing what you are saying off of incorrect assumptions. This is EXACTLY what I said:
"with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it MAKES ME WANT HIM to shove it in your faces more and more."
Multiple times
And I read it wrong every single time. My apologies.
I agree. It's a mess where every player is likely underperforming. My point is that blindly attributing the problems to the skill players or the OL is reductive and ignores the observable way Jones is harming his teammates.
There's actually a psychological bias here - call it the "big man" syndrome where organizational failures are blamed on the supporting cast rather than the leader. It's good for me to be self-conscious about this bias and make sure I try to approach the situation analytically.
Those were good posts Cosmic, but I think the only part people might disagree with was how much of it was Jones vs. OL or skill players. I think we all see what you see to a degree, for sure which is why everyone has questions. Being optimistic about incremental improvement in blocking, skill position, and scheme helping Jones also improve incrementally is going to pay huge dividends (if it happens). We know the skill have been upgraded, but I'm still concerned with OL, Scheme and RB. But for sure I think every one of us can agree he has to show that he is better this year. I believe he was doing that right before the hamstring injury... but we shall see.
Do I know what the hell Garrets offensive approach really was before or after the season and injuries.
Did the guy execute well on junky plans? Or execute poorly possibly winning strategies?
I'm going to suspect the former
he famously botched some simple plays. The two point conversion at the end of the TB game comes to mind. excellent play design, awful throw. I'm not sure why you would blame Garrett, over Jones.
I agree but you are taking his worst game as a pro for an example. He has not ever been perfect but he was clearly having a BAD game that day. He was really off.
And I read it wrong every single time. My apologies.
Hey no sweat brother. Honestly I think this OP about Sam Darnold has brought forth the best reasonable discussion we have ever had about Jones on this site... lol
I think you are onto something with your first point. Jones flashed more in '19 and seemed to make more big plays. Aside from the big run versus Philly, I really can't recall any signature plays for Jones in '20. So if the seasons were flipped, the mood around here might indeed be more bullish.
We differ on Garrett. He's really setting up to be a fall guy. You don't call the gem he called against Tampa last year and say he doesn't what he's doing. So I'm putting the pullback with the offense in '20 in this order (1) Jones, (2) OL/Barkley injury and (3) new offense for everyone.
Darnold is a weird one for me. The "seeing ghosts" comment was a horrible red flag. But he does make some very high level throws that are indicative of some high level ability. And, of course, the Jet factor messes up a fair evaluation as well. The best thing that could happen for him is that he gets a new opportunity in Carolina.
I don't think Garrett is incompetent. And I should have been more clear, it looked to me like Garrett deviated from offenses he had in Dallas. I think Jones is always going to be a bit of a turnover machine and that Garrett's offense was 'game manager-esque' for the QB. That's not what Jones does well and I don't think he'll ever do it well. I abhor making the Eli comparisons, but Eli always turned the ball over a lot as well. Jones throws a good deep ball. Can run but doesn't make the seamless transition to running that Jackson/Wilson/Murray do. There's tools to work with.
I can see a case where the OL is near average and Jones is able to put it together with his improved weapons. I say this as someone who thinks Jones really, really sucked last year (caveats be damned, no one thinks he had good weapons, lol).
I'm with you on the Eli comp. It won't end but it should.
On the turnovers, I try not to dwell on that. It's a problem, but the bigger problem/challenge is getting the team to score more points. That's the job description. There are going to be turnovers - it's the nature of the game - but a lot of that can be offset with TDs.
It's a big year for Garrett, too, right. Probably more than Jones because if the offense doesn't shine than Garrett is very likely gone before Jones. But he's got more toys to work with and implement more of his offense. And I have a feeling he's going to put these players in the best place to succeed.
I think Jones really needs confidence. He seems unsure in the pocket. Is he panicked? Confused? Overwhelmed? Who knows. Set your feet, make a sound decision and let it rip downfield or check it down. I have concerns with his ability to make the deep throws to the sideline that have to be on a line and where true arm talent shows its worth. He needs to protect himself. Availability is a big factor as a QB.
Yeah, a QB without confidence is a QB without a job in the NFL. I don't think that's it. I think it's more of what Sy identified in the pre-draft process - indecision. And while that is troublesome, I do believe that can be coached.
Some pretty good points there in his posts above about how DJ makes the players around him less good. And the big man syndrome is almost certainly at play here. Good analysis I think.
I think it all gets back to Jones being slow in his processing. He threw a TD last season, it was a goal to go and I can’t remember the team or who he tossed the TD to but it was like a slow motion TD. The receiver was so open and Jones was so late with the throw that I yelling at the TV to throw the ball. Look, I know that doesn’t necessarily mean anything, maybe the open guy was his last read on the backside of the play. Idk. And hey, it was a TD. But my point is that the slowness is there even when he’s doing the right thing. I’ve seen every snap Jones has taken and I usually come away with the same thought which is that he’s got a clock that seems like it’s just a bit off. You see it when he runs and gets down just a second too late which results in a bone crushing hit. You see it when he moves too late in the pocket where he isn’t usually moving into pressure (that he doesn’t see) but he’s just moving out of pressure too late. Maybe that’s why he’s fumbling so much? You see it in his throws when he forces something into coverage you know he’s seeing. Idk, it isn’t always there because sometimes he makes a wow throw or a good solid routine play. But, I remember reading a lot of the pre draft reports (I read them after he was drafted) and they talked about his forcing throws and turning the ball over and I’m pretty sure his processing speed was questioned by several scouts. Btw, these were all reasons, at a second level (at best) football program which graded Jones out as a second or third round QB2.
A lot of Jones flaws in college were attributed to the lack of talent on his team. Well, maybe that lack of talent has followed Jones to the NFL? Or maybe it’s him? Anyway, we’ll root for him to turn it around!
They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
Problem with that is that I can think of one, only one, QB that fits the latter. Which is why I cringe when people try to make comparisons between Jones and Eli. Eli was sui generis.
I think Jones really needs confidence. He seems unsure in the pocket. Is he panicked? Confused? Overwhelmed? Who knows. Set your feet, make a sound decision and let it rip downfield or check it down. I have concerns with his ability to make the deep throws to the sideline that have to be on a line and where true arm talent shows its worth. He needs to protect himself. Availability is a big factor as a QB.
Yeah, a QB without confidence is a QB without a job in the NFL. I don't think that's it. I think it's more of what Sy identified in the pre-draft process - indecision. And while that is troublesome, I do believe that can be coached.
If it truly is indecision, then most of that is an experience, study and recognize the defense, sort of thing which is developmental and may as much a product of where you played in college as anything else.
Lots of really bad emoting. Certainly can't call it thinking. The discipline to ignore seems to get a workout every week.
Did make me hope the gods of the draft and secondary Fa cough up a wr-ol early and a power running back after that. Despite preferring to take the defense to the next level, the thread helped me see what an entangled mess the offense is in. OR was in.
Were not great in the playoffs...Peyton was carried in Denver. Jackson has exceeded expectations, stop it. Using Jackson to bash Terps is stupid. It just is. If had to bet, I would bet Jones never wins an NFL MVP award and I am higher on his ceiling than most.
I think Jones really needs confidence. He seems unsure in the pocket. Is he panicked? Confused? Overwhelmed? Who knows. Set your feet, make a sound decision and let it rip downfield or check it down. I have concerns with his ability to make the deep throws to the sideline that have to be on a line and where true arm talent shows its worth. He needs to protect himself. Availability is a big factor as a QB.
Yeah, a QB without confidence is a QB without a job in the NFL. I don't think that's it. I think it's more of what Sy identified in the pre-draft process - indecision. And while that is troublesome, I do believe that can be coached.
Decision making can be broken down into 4 fundamental steps:
Data
Analysis
Decide
Act
In sports especially this process happens in seconds or even fractions of a second. And as a QB this process has to happen twice, pre and post snap. So where in the process is DJ having trouble? Let's focus on post snap.
Data: who's open and who's not? This is what it is, and completely out of DJs control
Analysis: Now that he's looked at the field he has to calculate who he can make a pass to, should he run, etc. This is where recognition comes into play, because if he can recognize a situation for exams as "run" and doesn't need to think that allows him to decide sooner.
Decide: calculation is complete, which option is he going to throw to? Run? Take a sack?
Action: do it
Can thinking faster be coached? I'm not sure. Recognition can be though, a la Ted Williams and the numbers on the baseball. Obviously DJ was under pressure a lot so that compounds everything become he has even less time to go through this process.
Sure, but don't forget, you can adjust scheme to a QBs strengths and weaknesses. Don't put him into a position where he has to think too much or look to a 3rd and 4th read (if in fact this is an issue for him). It'll be interesting to see if the scheme changes at all this year. Man I just hope the OL takes a step forward and becomes more stable more than anything else. Anyway I hope to hell it's better this year and we start winning some damn games... lol
If you look at the numbers I posted above on Darnold's second season, in arguably a much worse situation, he was a more productive player. This is a great topic.
If you can't passionately debate how the quarterback is performing and comparing and contrasting him to his contemporaries, much of the fun of chatting football is lost.
Were not great in the playoffs...Peyton was carried in Denver. Jackson has exceeded expectations, stop it. Using Jackson to bash Terps is stupid. It just is. If had to bet, I would bet Jones never wins an NFL MVP award and I am higher on his ceiling than most.
LOL...pointing out his horrendous play in big games is exactly what needs to be discussed if someone is going to use him as an example vs Jones. Why should his Playoff games be off-limits?
Also, both Marino and Manning had much better Playoff stats than Jackson has with many more games to compare. In 18 playoff games, Marino had 32 TDs vs 24 Ints and a 77% QBR (9 points higher than Jacksons). Peyton has 40 TDs to 25 Ints over 27 playoff games and a QBR of 87.4%.
They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
Problem with that is that I can think of one, only one, QB that fits the latter. Which is why I cringe when people try to make comparisons between Jones and Eli. Eli was sui generis.
Indeed he was!
I don't know if Jones is the answer or not but he hasn't had the resources to show us one way or the other. Yes he has to work on the Turnovers but many of those can be blamed on the receivers or the O-Line.
They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
Problem with that is that I can think of one, only one, QB that fits the latter. Which is why I cringe when people try to make comparisons between Jones and Eli. Eli was sui generis.
Indeed he was!
I don't know if Jones is the answer or not but he hasn't had the resources to show us one way or the other. Yes he has to work on the Turnovers but many of those can be blamed on the receivers or the O-Line.
Hit submit too soon.
He finally has a good #1 WR and SB back with the young O-line having some experience under them and making some real progress during the 2nd half of last season. The coach is sold on him so lets see what he does
Decision making can be broken down into 4 fundamental steps:
Data
Analysis
Decide
Act
In sports especially this process happens in seconds or even fractions of a second. And as a QB this process has to happen twice, pre and post snap. So where in the process is DJ having trouble? Let's focus on post snap.
Data: who's open and who's not? This is what it is, and completely out of DJs control
Analysis: Now that he's looked at the field he has to calculate who he can make a pass to, should he run, etc. This is where recognition comes into play, because if he can recognize a situation for exams as "run" and doesn't need to think that allows him to decide sooner.
Decide: calculation is complete, which option is he going to throw to? Run? Take a sack?
Action: do it
Can thinking faster be coached? I'm not sure. Recognition can be though, a la Ted Williams and the numbers on the baseball. Obviously DJ was under pressure a lot so that compounds everything become he has even less time to go through this process.
Wouldn't the analysis part come first?
It seems to me the "data" part is a baked into the analysis. If DJ is going through his reads quickly and properly, he should be able to decide who is open and in the best position to make a play...
If you look at the numbers I posted above on Darnold's second season, in arguably a much worse situation, he was a more productive player. This is a great topic.
If you can't passionately debate how the quarterback is performing and comparing and contrasting him to his contemporaries, much of the fun of chatting football is lost.
This is a great thread and a great conversation.
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
If you look at the numbers I posted above on Darnold's second season, in arguably a much worse situation, he was a more productive player. This is a great topic.
If you can't passionately debate how the quarterback is performing and comparing and contrasting him to his contemporaries, much of the fun of chatting football is lost.
This is a great thread and a great conversation.
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
bw, I see your point but the same complaint can be applied to either side. Seriously, how many threads do you think have been made on BBI since the end of the 2020 season that slammed Jones that use the same tired arguments while not taking into account the variables that contributed to his stats?
It is no contest, I mean there are some on here that no matter the thread they somehow segue into a Jones rant. If he is not the guy we will know come this next season but holy shit let's at least hope for the best for the kid without the constant drumbeat of those who yearn to be proven right.
And our teams rushing average goes up, this doesn’t inflate our rushing yards per carry making our offensive Line rushing stats go threw the roof. That doesn’t make them look better? Wow.
They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
Problem with that is that I can think of one, only one, QB that fits the latter. Which is why I cringe when people try to make comparisons between Jones and Eli. Eli was sui generis.
Flacco was the other one. He was tremendous in the playoffs early in his career including a SB win.
Decision making can be broken down into 4 fundamental steps:
Data
Analysis
Decide
Act
In sports especially this process happens in seconds or even fractions of a second. And as a QB this process has to happen twice, pre and post snap. So where in the process is DJ having trouble? Let's focus on post snap.
Data: who's open and who's not? This is what it is, and completely out of DJs control
Analysis: Now that he's looked at the field he has to calculate who he can make a pass to, should he run, etc. This is where recognition comes into play, because if he can recognize a situation for exams as "run" and doesn't need to think that allows him to decide sooner.
Decide: calculation is complete, which option is he going to throw to? Run? Take a sack?
Action: do it
Can thinking faster be coached? I'm not sure. Recognition can be though, a la Ted Williams and the numbers on the baseball. Obviously DJ was under pressure a lot so that compounds everything become he has even less time to go through this process.
Wouldn't the analysis part come first?
It seems to me the "data" part is a baked into the analysis. If DJ is going through his reads quickly and properly, he should be able to decide who is open and in the best position to make a play...
I'm not the one who invented the DADA processes lol, but to be able to make a decision you need something (data) to analyze, and not just saying "I'm going to do X" regardless of what the data is
Of course it’s considered a great conversation....
when the people dominating it all agree with each other.
But I’m failing to see anybody have their opinion swayed, or the conversation moving forward in any meaningful way. In fact, all I see are people doubling down on their original stances.
when the people dominating it all agree with each other.
But I’m failing to see anybody have their opinion swayed, or the conversation moving forward in any meaningful way. In fact, all I see are people doubling down on their original stances.
It’s dressed up wheel spinning.
A "great conversation" that has nothing to do with Darnold!! Just another gathering of people looking to trash Jones and the GM.
RE: Of course it’s considered a great conversation....
when the people dominating it all agree with each other.
But I’m failing to see anybody have their opinion swayed, or the conversation moving forward in any meaningful way. In fact, all I see are people doubling down on their original stances.
It’s dressed up wheel spinning.
Ha for sure, no one's opinion will change. I'm rooting like hell for the guy to have a great year and solidify himself as the guy, but I would guess that there will be some that will never accept him as the guy. Not really any different than Eli in that regard (Yep. I threw out another Eli comparo... lol). I feel like our take is the most logical for sure Britt.
If you look at the numbers I posted above on Darnold's second season, in arguably a much worse situation, he was a more productive player. This is a great topic.
If you can't passionately debate how the quarterback is performing and comparing and contrasting him to his contemporaries, much of the fun of chatting football is lost.
This is a great thread and a great conversation.
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
I admittedly don't follow the Jets very closely. I was quite surprised when I looked up Darnold's second year numbers.
The Jets really focused on improving their biggest perceived weakness, offensive line. And in the second year of the system, third year in the NFL, Darnold nose dived.
A successful Giants career over the next decade. Just trying to view things objectively. And I’m very tired of the blame entirely going to the supporting cast.
I’m willing that concede that there are concerns to Jones’ game. All of the concerns that have been laid out incessantly here are valid concerns about Jones the player.
What I can’t concede is that the organization was incompetent in evaluating Jones the prospect. What I can’t concede is the Jones’ ceiling is already established. I can’t concede that Jones has shown zero indication in his skill set that he can ever be a successful starter in the NFL.
This will never be a great conversation until a very vocal minority here walk back some of those absolute statements.
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
bw, I see your point but the same complaint can be applied to either side. Seriously, how many threads do you think have been made on BBI since the end of the 2020 season that slammed Jones that use the same tired arguments while not taking into account the variables that contributed to his stats?
It is no contest, I mean there are some on here that no matter the thread they somehow segue into a Jones rant. If he is not the guy we will know come this next season but holy shit let's at least hope for the best for the kid without the constant drumbeat of those who yearn to be proven right.
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
There has been a major transition at play here for the past several...
years. Coaches, front office, QB’s, and complete roster turnover, not to mention Covid. Those are turbulent waters to navigate. We might be starting to get something with a little more stability/consistency.
If Jones is going to be our QB, that needs to happen this year. It’s time and the pressure is on. We will learn a lot about Jones this year.
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
bw, I see your point but the same complaint can be applied to either side. Seriously, how many threads do you think have been made on BBI since the end of the 2020 season that slammed Jones that use the same tired arguments while not taking into account the variables that contributed to his stats?
It is no contest, I mean there are some on here that no matter the thread they somehow segue into a Jones rant. If he is not the guy we will know come this next season but holy shit let's at least hope for the best for the kid without the constant drumbeat of those who yearn to be proven right.
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
You call Jones a huge investment as the #6 overall pick and then flippantly praise the Jets for moving on from Darnold, who was #3 overall and an additional 3 2nd rounders to get there, for pennies on the dollar.
Agreed that Jones will improve in the future. But a lot of value is being placed on a draft evaluation process that, because it was about the “face of the franchise”, was politicized.
Bw has been posting for several years that he viewed Jones as a 2nd round prospect. I was scoffing at his position until the middle of last season and now I understand it. I’m living and learning. When you draft a QB, that player has to have pro level field vision. If they don’t, you are just wasting your time. That’s why Jameis Winston, a player with awesome physical skills, is on the verge of being out if the league. And Jones has many deficiencies beyond field vision.
None of this is going to convince anyone. And it shouldn’t. We need to see what happens in September and October. But enough with the supporting cast criticism. Look how Colt McCoy was able to magically change the struggling Giants OL into a pretty decent pass blocking line. And McCoy is a career backup.
I’m willing that concede that there are concerns to Jones’ game. All of the concerns that have been laid out incessantly here are valid concerns about Jones the player.
What I can’t concede is that the organization was incompetent in evaluating Jones the prospect. What I can’t concede is the Jones’ ceiling is already established. I can’t concede that Jones has shown zero indication in his skill set that he can ever be a successful starter in the NFL.
This will never be a great conversation until a very vocal minority here walk back some of those absolute statements.
Why do they have to walk them back?
Can’t they be heard just like anybody else. Did it really ruin your take on the thread with this many posts? You don’t have to agree nor like the way it is stated but it is still fair game to think that way.
The Jets really focused on improving their biggest perceived weakness, offensive line. And in the second year of the system, third year in the NFL, Darnold nose dived.
Yes, Darnold finished very strong in '19. The Jets finished the second half of that year 6-2. And Darnold was 13/4 TD/INT, 2 rushing TDs, QBR 64, 7.3 YPA. So there some green arrow for the Big Green.
I really don't know what happened in '20, but it looks like the Jets got off to the slow start and things just snowballed. Darnold pressed to make things happen and couldn't get it done.
The best thing that could happen to Darnold happened - a change of scenery. Now it's up to him and that Carolina staff to start the rehab.
Agreed that Jones will improve in the future. But a lot of value is being placed on a draft evaluation process that, because it was about the “face of the franchise”, was politicized.
Bw has been posting for several years that he viewed Jones as a 2nd round prospect. I was scoffing at his position until the middle of last season and now I understand it. I’m living and learning. When you draft a QB, that player has to have pro level field vision. If they don’t, you are just wasting your time. That’s why Jameis Winston, a player with awesome physical skills, is on the verge of being out if the league. And Jones has many deficiencies beyond field vision.
None of this is going to convince anyone. And it shouldn’t. We need to see what happens in September and October. But enough with the supporting cast criticism. Look how Colt McCoy was able to magically change the struggling Giants OL into a pretty decent pass blocking line. And McCoy is a career backup.
I hear what you are saying but the praise for Colt McCoy for that Seattle game is a bit... much. He was 13 of 22 for 105 yards with 1 TD and 1 INT. We won 17-12... I give him credit for managing the game but much of the credit for that win was on the defense and Patrick Graham. Jones was coming off of two pretty good weeks and then had the hamstring. We don't really know how that game would have played out with Jones healthy, it's quite possible we win with Jones behind center healthy.
I still think Darnold has decent enough game to be a starter
in the league. Not sure I see a success story though. And I don’t really follow the beats or stories on the Jets on a steady basis but it always seemed like Darnold didn’t take his job as serious as he needed to. That may not be a fair comment but just my perception from afar.
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
You call Jones a huge investment as the #6 overall pick and then flippantly praise the Jets for moving on from Darnold, who was #3 overall and an additional 3 2nd rounders to get there, for pennies on the dollar.
I'm not flippantly praising. I'm praising the Jets for making a smart move. A divorce was needed for both sides. The Jets received a decent package and Darnold gets a chance to revitalize his career.
Hell, I was surprised the Jets got that much in return and have postulated the Giants could probably get a first for Jones this year...
I’m willing that concede that there are concerns to Jones’ game. All of the concerns that have been laid out incessantly here are valid concerns about Jones the player.
What I can’t concede is that the organization was incompetent in evaluating Jones the prospect. What I can’t concede is the Jones’ ceiling is already established. I can’t concede that Jones has shown zero indication in his skill set that he can ever be a successful starter in the NFL.
This will never be a great conversation until a very vocal minority here walk back some of those absolute statements.
Why do they have to walk them back?
Can’t they be heard just like anybody else. Did it really ruin your take on the thread with this many posts? You don’t have to agree nor like the way it is stated but it is still fair game to think that way.
Isn’t it?
Then what’s the point in continuing a conversation? If you were having this conversation with a stranger at a bar eventually you’d either bow out or agree to disagree and change the subject. But then imagine that every new subject kept being reverted back to the original subject?
Unless you’re suggesting that is what people should do, bow out and let the other likeminded individuals continue to agree with each other.
But is that a conversation or an echo chamber?
That is why it is important to walk back absolute opinions stated as fact. Because if you can’t or won’t, there is no point in having the conversation anymore.
That’s just crazy. It’s an opinion. You just can’t stand that things
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
bw, I see your point but the same complaint can be applied to either side. Seriously, how many threads do you think have been made on BBI since the end of the 2020 season that slammed Jones that use the same tired arguments while not taking into account the variables that contributed to his stats?
It is no contest, I mean there are some on here that no matter the thread they somehow segue into a Jones rant. If he is not the guy we will know come this next season but holy shit let's at least hope for the best for the kid without the constant drumbeat of those who yearn to be proven right.
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
Re McCoy and the Seahawks, I’m not crediting him for the win. I’m saying that the two games he started had the OL pass blocking much better than with Jones behind center. It’s a small controlled experiment. And it suggests that Jones pocket skills are so poor that it is him letting down his teammates, not the other way around.
So how would you be able to tell if Jones were an under talented player who wasn’t good enough to be an NFL starter? I mean, that is a possibility, right?
Begging the question = assuming your conclusion in making the argument.
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
You call Jones a huge investment as the #6 overall pick and then flippantly praise the Jets for moving on from Darnold, who was #3 overall and an additional 3 2nd rounders to get there, for pennies on the dollar.
I'm not flippantly praising. I'm praising the Jets for making a smart move. A divorce was needed for both sides. The Jets received a decent package and Darnold gets a chance to revitalize his career.
Hell, I was surprised the Jets got that much in return and have postulated the Giants could probably get a first for Jones this year...
Huh? How did they get decent value? They traded THREE 2nd round picks to get him, then trade him for a 6th this year and a 2nd and 4th next year. That's a terrible ROI.
So how would you be able to tell if Jones were an under talented player who wasn’t good enough to be an NFL starter? I mean, that is a possibility, right?
Begging the question = assuming your conclusion in making the argument.
You really can't until he is at least given a somewhat average surrounding cast. Given the facts of what he had to work with last year, I am surprised at what he did accomplish
I'm not flippantly praising. I'm praising the Jets for making a smart move. A divorce was needed for both sides. The Jets received a decent package and Darnold gets a chance to revitalize his career.
Hell, I was surprised the Jets got that much in return and have postulated the Giants could probably get a first for Jones this year...
Huh? How did they get decent value? They traded THREE 2nd round picks to get him, then trade him for a 6th this year and a 2nd and 4th next year. That's a terrible ROI.
IMV, the Jets got decent value for Darnold because I didn't think they could unload him for more than a 3rd or 4th. So to get a multiple pick package with a 2nd, 4th and 6th seems like decent value for a QB who is obviously lost at the position right now...
What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
I would love to know that answer
You're not going to get much push back that Gettleman constructed a deplorable offensive cast last year. I suspect if you go back to last offseason, you'll see plenty of chatter between BW, Terps, Googs, and me fearful of that point.
But answering your question directly: I expected Daniel Jones to have the same kind of season Sam Darnold in his second season -- with a shitty line, bad WRs, subpar running game, in his 2nd season in a new system.
Was Sam Darnold's situation so much better in his 2nd year than Jones last year?
I expected Jones to throw more touchdowns and win more games.
I was pleased he cut down his fumbles (still a WIP), and I was pleased he ran the ball well. I was also please he continued to throw the ball well downfield.
But situation aside, I didn't expect Jones to be so unproductive in so many games.
I don’t understand how somebody can have the opinion....
Tough to imagine anyone interested in trading a first for Jones. There figure to be five QBs in the first round...why not just go for one of them?
Look, I would have thought similarly until the Darnold trade.
Now give me some rope here as I try to make the case, but Jones has one less poor year than Darnold, he's the same age, has more potential as a dual threat, and looks better as a potential vertical thrower.
I don't think we are going to be in a position to get the only two worth getting at this point - Fields and Lance. Wilson and Lawrence are pegged at 1 and 2. And I have no interest in Mac Jones as a first rounder.
So it would take a move up. All academic, but I would call the Bears - they still have a big need at QB - and see if we can unload Jones for their 20th pick. And then package our 11th and this 20th to move up to a spot - Atlanta, Detroit? - to draft Fields or Lance. I think both are considerably more talented than Jones...
RE: I don’t understand how somebody can have the opinion....
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
I would love to know that answer
The expectations should have been high if you thought Jones had a good rookie year in '19. Which I am told - over and over - that he did (maybe not by you).
But just using your own logic, and nothing else....
That seems like the type of move you would accuse an incompetent Gettleman of making. You’d point out the season he just had, point out that you never considered him a first rounder to begin with, and blast the front office for making a panic move and wasting a first round pick on him.
RE: RE: I don’t understand how somebody can have the opinion....
That seems like the type of move you would accuse an incompetent Gettleman of making. You’d point out the season he just had, point out that you never considered him a first rounder to begin with, and blast the front office for making a panic move and wasting a first round pick on him.
I would? I'm the same guy who praised the Cards for ditching Rosen (who I still like, btw) and the Jets for moving on from Darnold.
I'm obviously not sold on Jones, so I would the reasoning to cut ties from DJ and start fresh with a new QB.
What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
I would love to know that answer
You're not going to get much push back that Gettleman constructed a deplorable offensive cast last year. I suspect if you go back to last offseason, you'll see plenty of chatter between BW, Terps, Googs, and me fearful of that point.
But answering your question directly: I expected Daniel Jones to have the same kind of season Sam Darnold in his second season -- with a shitty line, bad WRs, subpar running game, in his 2nd season in a new system.
Was Sam Darnold's situation so much better in his 2nd year than Jones last year?
I expected Jones to throw more touchdowns and win more games.
I was pleased he cut down his fumbles (still a WIP), and I was pleased he ran the ball well. I was also please he continued to throw the ball well downfield.
But situation aside, I didn't expect Jones to be so unproductive in so many games.
So you will just discount having a second year QB having a brand new offensive scheme and coaching staff? With no preseason? And many have said he was looking pretty good right before the hammy.
And round and round we go. This thread may never end... lol. And I think most people didn't think our offense looked very talented last year, at least after Saquon went down. I recall many discussions about not having a true #1 receiver and questions about Evan Engram.
He’s either worth a first pick or he’s not. It’s a contradiction to say he wasn’t worth a first round pick when we took him but is worth one to another team now. I’m seriously trying to understand that rationale.
is that if he is valued as a first round pick currently to another team, then since we currently own his rights why would we be so hasty to move on from him now, and essentially burning two first round picks to do it.
I don't think Jones is worth close to a first round pick. He wasn't great at Duke, he hasn't been great in the NFL. You'd be trading four him in the hopes that he turns into something he's never shown.
I don't think Jones is worth close to a first round pick. He wasn't great at Duke, he hasn't been great in the NFL. You'd be trading four him in the hopes that he turns into something he's never shown.
And that's what I would expect bw's take to be as well, for consistency, based on everything I've read here.
The reason I would consider it if a QB fell to 11 while still having Jones, is because I believe NOW enough has been done to set the table for a QB to come in and be moderately successful. That was not necessarily the case while I was still advocating for Eli to be the placeholder and Jones to sit the bench for a year.
Now, I believe, enough has been done to the roster and put a QB out there and not worry about him getting teed off on every drop back, and have some weapons to actually dump off to.
So yes, it wouldn't be ideal but I could get behind them taking a QB at 11 if they wanted a competition.
What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
I would love to know that answer
You're not going to get much push back that Gettleman constructed a deplorable offensive cast last year. I suspect if you go back to last offseason, you'll see plenty of chatter between BW, Terps, Googs, and me fearful of that point.
But answering your question directly: I expected Daniel Jones to have the same kind of season Sam Darnold in his second season -- with a shitty line, bad WRs, subpar running game, in his 2nd season in a new system.
Was Sam Darnold's situation so much better in his 2nd year than Jones last year?
I expected Jones to throw more touchdowns and win more games.
I was pleased he cut down his fumbles (still a WIP), and I was pleased he ran the ball well. I was also please he continued to throw the ball well downfield.
But situation aside, I didn't expect Jones to be so unproductive in so many games.
So you will just discount having a second year QB having a brand new offensive scheme and coaching staff? With no preseason? And many have said he was looking pretty good right before the hammy.
And round and round we go. This thread may never end... lol. And I think most people didn't think our offense looked very talented last year, at least after Saquon went down. I recall many discussions about not having a true #1 receiver and questions about Evan Engram.
The Giants offense last year wasn't really that talented with Saquon there, let alone without him. Shepard was our best receiver and he's a #3 slot guy. Now at least there's some talent in with Golladay and perhaps another receiver drafted at #11 to accurately judge Jones and see whether he sinks or swims.
The only way this thread is relevant to Jones is if he has Golladay, Saquon, and say Waddle or Smith and he still has a bad year like last year. Then we'll be in the position the Jets were with Darnold
From the highlights I've seen of Lance, and what I've read...Jones doesn't have his arm strength. He also doesn't run the same way Lance does. Jones is straight line fast, but he isn't extending many plays with his mobility. Lance looks more agile.
To me what it boils down to is this: what do you think Jones's ceiling is? If you think his ceiling is a good/not great player, then we should be open to finding his replacement at any opportunity. Why? Because we're not going to want to pay a good player a $35M+ contract in a couple years. Why would we, when we can pretty easily draft a similar player and pay him a fraction of that? Jones can improve quite a bit over what he's been and still not be worth a second contract.
I doubt they are, but their eyes should be open to improve at QB.
What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
I would love to know that answer
You're not going to get much push back that Gettleman constructed a deplorable offensive cast last year. I suspect if you go back to last offseason, you'll see plenty of chatter between BW, Terps, Googs, and me fearful of that point.
But answering your question directly: I expected Daniel Jones to have the same kind of season Sam Darnold in his second season -- with a shitty line, bad WRs, subpar running game, in his 2nd season in a new system.
Was Sam Darnold's situation so much better in his 2nd year than Jones last year?
I expected Jones to throw more touchdowns and win more games.
I was pleased he cut down his fumbles (still a WIP), and I was pleased he ran the ball well. I was also please he continued to throw the ball well downfield.
But situation aside, I didn't expect Jones to be so unproductive in so many games.
So you will just discount having a second year QB having a brand new offensive scheme and coaching staff? With no preseason? And many have said he was looking pretty good right before the hammy.
And round and round we go. This thread may never end... lol. And I think most people didn't think our offense looked very talented last year, at least after Saquon went down. I recall many discussions about not having a true #1 receiver and questions about Evan Engram.
This topic will be on page 100 and we'll still be replying 😂
From the highlights I've seen of Lance, and what I've read...Jones doesn't have his arm strength. He also doesn't run the same way Lance does. Jones is straight line fast, but he isn't extending many plays with his mobility. Lance looks more agile.
To me what it boils down to is this: what do you think Jones's ceiling is? If you think his ceiling is a good/not great player, then we should be open to finding his replacement at any opportunity. Why? Because we're not going to want to pay a good player a $35M+ contract in a couple years. Why would we, when we can pretty easily draft a similar player and pay him a fraction of that? Jones can improve quite a bit over what he's been and still not be worth a second contract.
I doubt they are, but their eyes should be open to improve at QB.
I don't know what Jones really is until we see him with Golladay, Saquon and perhaps Waddle or DeVonta Smith as his skill position players. Then there's no excuse for Jones. Last year Jones probably had the worst skill position players in the NFL around him so it was practically impossible to judge him. Plus the OL wasn't great shakes either. It was a virtually impossible situation. Shepard would be a #3 receiver on most teams but he was our #1 guy. The less said about Engram the better
the chance he'll be there at 11 is slim. I think all 5 QBs (Lawrence, Wilson, Mac Jones, Fields and Lance) are gone by 11. There are other QB needy teams that are going to attempt a trade into the top 10 or are already sitting in the top 10 like the Falcons that need a QB of the future
but it would be very telling of what they thought of Jones if they did.
That said, if Judge wanted Lance at 11 and he was sitting there, I doubt there would be any "scholarship" holding them back from taking him.
I doubt it's Judge's call.
I don't know about that, actually. Judge doesn't strike me as a guy will stick with a player he doesn't think has what it takes. I'd have to guess if we were in a position to take Lawrence, maybe Wilson... I would be surprised if they didn't take one of them. That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
You're not going to get much push back that Gettleman constructed a deplorable offensive cast last year. I suspect if you go back to last offseason, you'll see plenty of chatter between BW, Terps, Googs, and me fearful of that point.
But answering your question directly: I expected Daniel Jones to have the same kind of season Sam Darnold in his second season -- with a shitty line, bad WRs, subpar running game, in his 2nd season in a new system.
Was Sam Darnold's situation so much better in his 2nd year than Jones last year?
I expected Jones to throw more touchdowns and win more games.
I was pleased he cut down his fumbles (still a WIP), and I was pleased he ran the ball well. I was also please he continued to throw the ball well downfield.
But situation aside, I didn't expect Jones to be so unproductive in so many games.
So you will just discount having a second year QB having a brand new offensive scheme and coaching staff? With no preseason? And many have said he was looking pretty good right before the hammy.
And round and round we go. This thread may never end... lol. And I think most people didn't think our offense looked very talented last year, at least after Saquon went down. I recall many discussions about not having a true #1 receiver and questions about Evan Engram.
I can’t even begin to understand how that’s what you took from comment.
I expected Daniel Jones to perform on par to how Sam Darnold did in his 2nd season. A similarly talented player in a similarly bad situation.
I don't think Jones is worth close to a first round pick. He wasn't great at Duke, he hasn't been great in the NFL. You'd be trading four him in the hopes that he turns into something he's never shown.
And that's what I would expect bw's take to be as well, for consistency, based on everything I've read here.
Again, I'm not saying I think DJ should generate a first round pick in a theoretical trade.
But I could see another team considering it since Darnold just got the Jets a second after a horrible year. Jones has two comparable first years to Darnold and he does have attributes a team might find more useful than those of Darnold's...like more of a legit dual threat if used a specific way.
I can’t even begin to understand how that’s what you took from comment.
I expected Daniel Jones to perform on par to how Sam Darnold did in his 2nd season. A similarly talented player in a similarly bad situation.
Ah, Sorry I guess I misunderstood. Darnold's second year was far and away his best, so I just assumed you meant you were expecting a jump forward for Jones.
I actually think Darnold is going to be a decent player for Carolina. That Jets organization is truly a mess. And Adam Gase... I don't know on what planet an NFL team hires that guy to be HC after what he showed in Miami. Bizarre.
Darnold: 59.9 comp %, 36 TD, 28 INT, QBRs of 45.9 and 45.6, 16 fumbles, 200 rushing yards, 3 TD
Jones actually has the better stats, especially the QBRs, but the fumbles are the killer in his case, most likely because his best receiver is Sterling Shepard who is a #3 receiver on most teams. The fumbles are due to Jones hanging onto the ball for too long because we don't have anyone who consistently gets open, so he gets hit a lot and therefore loses the ball. I would expect the fumble numbers to go down now that he actually has a #1 receiver in Golladay and could get a #2 in Smith or Waddle in the draft. If the fumbles don't improve any then we've got a serious problem and we can't continue with Jones after 2021 because he likely lost us too many games.
Darnold had 5889 passing yards in his first two years
this goes back to Phil Simms, who was uneven at best in his first three seasons here and suffered injuries on top of that. Lots of people wanted to give up on Simms but thank goodness we didn't. Even Bill Parcells initially gave up on Simms for Scott Brunner back in the day. By the end of three years, you know whether to move forward or not in most cases. You usually don't know after two years unless it's 100% obvious that the QB can't do it, and it's not 100% obvious in Jones' case. I don't think Jones is the guy long term but I could be wrong and he could light it up this year. In fact I hope I'm wrong and he lights it up this year...
The Jets decided after three years that they weren't moving forward with Darnold, and we'll have to make that decision after this season with Jones. But I think to already make the decision before that all-important third season is jumping the gun. You have to see how the experiment plays out before you call it a failure...
That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?
For the reasons we have posted in support of Jones for over 13 pages now in this thread... lol. We shall see. I don't say you are unequivocally wrong, but I believe you are. I have my concerns but again, I am bullish on what I have seen. Think about it this way, if there is even slight incremental improvement in OL play, slight improvement in skill play, slight improvement in RB and TE blocking, slight improvement in Jones timing/pocket awareness, and they scheme to his strengths and away from his weaknesses? How many close games does that put in the victory column? I'd have to think quite a few. But again, I'm optimistic on what I see.
That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?
You’ve gotten the answer so many times. You don’t believe the answers and that’s fine, but those are the reasons. This is basically what I’m getting at when I ask why we keep talking about this stuff. There’s no metric I can point to to change your mind nor am I trying. What are you looking to find out that you don’t already know?
I’m shocked this thread still exists, keep seeing it pop up and wondered why.
he spends 365 x maybe 15 years getting the most from football players and data about football and doing so at the highest level of consequence for getting it right or wrong?
and all the folks on this thread spend a few hours a day arguing badly and without facts without any consequence?
That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?
For the reasons we have posted in support of Jones for over 13 pages now in this thread... lol. We shall see. I don't say you are unequivocally wrong, but I believe you are. I have my concerns but again, I am bullish on what I have seen. Think about it this way, if there is even slight incremental improvement in OL play, slight improvement in skill play, slight improvement in RB and TE blocking, slight improvement in Jones timing/pocket awareness, and they scheme to his strengths and away from his weaknesses? How many close games does that put in the victory column? I'd have to think quite a few. But again, I'm optimistic on what I see.
I'm not as bullish as you but Jones deserves the third year to prove he's the guy. I don't believe in unstable quarterback carousels as the way to build a team like Terps. That's what occurs on the other side of MetLife with the Jets and that's the reason why they haven't been in a Super Bowl since Namath played for them in the 60s. There are aspects of Jones' play in his rookie year, when he had Saquon for most of the year, where he was headed for franchise QB status. However, last year was a very difficult situation without Saquon, and I think Jones did what he could, but he definitely took a step back. Now with Golladay, Saquon back, perhaps another receiver drafted high, and another year in charge, Jones sinks or swims and he doesn't have any excuses. Either he shines and leads us to the playoffs or he fails and we have to consider a new QB
That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?
You’ve gotten the answer so many times. You don’t believe the answers and that’s fine, but those are the reasons. This is basically what I’m getting at when I ask why we keep talking about this stuff. There’s no metric I can point to to change your mind nor am I trying. What are you looking to find out that you don’t already know?
I’m shocked this thread still exists, keep seeing it pop up and wondered why.
And the answer never makes sense.
And I will never understand the whining over that other people post. If you don't like it don't read it.
None of us have a clue what JJ thinks of DJ in private. What's he going to do, trash him in the media? Not happening. Jones wasn't a JJ call & odds are that if we tank in '21, DG is gone & who knows about Jones? I hate to sound like a broken record, but the dude has to sink or swim this fall.
Mara's comments a week or so back that he could see DJ winning multiple Super Bowls here were odd & not needed. Sometimes John put his foot in his mouth.
None of us have a clue what JJ thinks of DJ in private. What's he going to do, trash him in the media? Not happening. Jones wasn't a JJ call & odds are that if we tank in '21, DG is gone & who knows about Jones? I hate to sound like a broken record, but the dude has to sink or swim this fall.
Mara's comments a week or so back that he could see DJ winning multiple Super Bowls here were odd & not needed. Sometimes John put his foot in his mouth.
I would look for a new QB if Jones fails this year as well, but the idea that Jones doesn't deserve a third year with us and that QBs have to sink or swim as rookies and 2nd year players or they are busts just leads to organizational instability. I agree on Mara's comments, they were silly and needlessly put Jones under more pressure. The Giants gave Phil Simms 6 years to become the guy. Heck, we even gave Dave Brown more time than some people on this board think Jones should get and Dave Brown was one of the worst QB's I've ever seen. He got 3+ years before Fassel switched to Danny Kanell in 1997 for a couple of seasons. Kanell is actually the only QB in 40 years who was given the chance to start a season for us that didn't get extended run since Simms back in the 1980s...
Mara's comments a week or so back that he could see DJ winning multiple Super Bowls here were odd & not needed. Sometimes John put his foot in his mouth.
Interesting. I didn't hear it that way. Seemed pretty innocuous to me. Sounded like Mara wanted to publicly give Jones a vote of confidence and that he believed in him.
and first post I saw after days skipping this thread was you asking for why. You’ll never get the answer, I’m sure you know that by now, right?
Of course. And given what we do know, saying that Judge has a high opinion of Jones is a guess based on zero logic. He didn't draft him, so he isn't tied to him politically. In their one year together Jones played very poorly, making the kinds of mistakes that are anethema to someone as detail oriented as Judge.
There are logical reasons why Judge would not be a big buyer of Jones. There are no logical reasons he would be.
And again, this is why retaining Gettleman after hitting Judge was problematic. There is a real possibility of competing agendas causing problems.
That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?
Do you think so poorly about Jones that you can't even imagine the possibility that someone with intimate knowledge about his performance - not just the cold hard stats, but how Jones performed during each play given the circumstances of the play around him - could have the opinion that he has what it takes to do great things if put into better situations?
I mean, I agree that we don't really know what Judge thinks (and we shouldn't), but is it so hard for you to imagine that might be the case that you refuse to accept it as an answer?
and first post I saw after days skipping this thread was you asking for why. You’ll never get the answer, I’m sure you know that by now, right?
The never ending fascination with Terps’ posts.
GT you sure can pull em’ in...
Thankfully George Young and Bill Parcells were in charge of the Giants in 1984 instead of Terps and finally gave Phil Simms the chance to shine when they easily could have gone in a different direction at QB and ended up with zero SBs instead of 2
Thankfully George Young and Bill Parcells were in charge of the Giants in 1984 instead of Terps and finally gave Phil Simms the chance to shine when they easily could have gone in a different direction at QB and ended up with zero SBs instead of 2
Different football, different eras, different economic models.
There are logical reasons why Judge would not be a big buyer of Jones. There are no logical reasons he would be.
Sorry, but that's just silly. Of course there are logical reasons he would be. Just because you don't agree with them with the information you have doesn't mean they aren't logical.
Yeah, I don't think we can compare Simms long leash to the leash DJ gets. If Simms was around now & had the same struggles he did in his career, he isn't the starting QB in '86...hell, he might not have even been a Giant come '83 or '84.
Just a different era.
Christian Ponder’s 3rd season was very similar to Daniel Jones’
Thankfully George Young and Bill Parcells were in charge of the Giants in 1984 instead of Terps and finally gave Phil Simms the chance to shine when they easily could have gone in a different direction at QB and ended up with zero SBs instead of 2
Different football, different eras, different economic models.
Apple to an orange...
The Giants considered trading Simms in 1983, which was his 5th season. Simms actually asked for a trade but the Giants couldn't find a buyer. That's how low his stock was back then
Yeah, I don't think we can compare Simms long leash to the leash DJ gets. If Simms was around now & had the same struggles he did in his career, he isn't the starting QB in '86...hell, he might not have even been a Giant come '83 or '84.
Just a different era.
Just a gut feeling, but the way football was played in the '80s, I think a lot of the QBs in that era would have absolutely shined in this era. And, of course, WRs.
Yeah, I don't think we can compare Simms long leash to the leash DJ gets. If Simms was around now & had the same struggles he did in his career, he isn't the starting QB in '86...hell, he might not have even been a Giant come '83 or '84.
Just a different era.
True, but thank goodness Simms got the long leash in retrospect. In this era the long leash would be 4 years, back then it was 5 or 6. I don't think Jeff Hostetler or Jeff Rutledge would have won the title for us in 1986. The interesting what if is if the Giants gave up on Simms in 1983 and decided to draft Boomer Esiason in 1984. Perhaps we still have similar success because Boomer was a talented QB as well
This is only the 3rd year for Jones and I'm willing to move on from him if he doesn't work out this year. He has to succeed this year or we most likely need to look QB again.
Just a different era in how the game was played & officiated. Over the past year, I've watched some of those '80s games...the product was superior in my opinion. The NFL has become too fantasy football like for my taste, at the expense of true diehards. But all the NFL cares about is the almighty dollar & they keep making dinero hand over fist so...
I would agree, and I don’t think it is. Judge got less than a year with Jones, even less when you factor in the injury. I think it’s reasonable to want to see him healthy and with some semblance of skill players around him, hopefully with improved line play. Judge isn’t on the hot seat anyway, he can afford to be patient and see how it goes this year and use 2022 to get “his QB” if it doesn’t work out.
RE: Giants history shouldn't inform decisions on Jones
Interesting point on potentially moving on from Simms and Eli too early...
In 1983 the Giants drafted Terry Kinard over Kelly and More importantly Marino. In 2005 the Giants didn't have a first rounder because they traded it for Eli. If they'd had that first rounder they would have been able to draft Aaron Rodgers.
Marino and Rodgers. Simms and Eli are probably my two favorite Giants ever, but it turned out that they had options to improve over the both of them early.
I think the drafting of Simms & Eli turned out to be fine, even if we could have had Marino or Rodgers. All franchises could play that game. Those 2 helped us win 4 Lombardis.
&-for all the bitching we do recently-25 odd fan bases would trade their history for ours.
The crux of this goes back to 2018 when the debate was new QB or SB? The two general trains of thought were 1.) Pick a QB or 2.) Pick SB and wait until 2020 to draft a QB.
If Jones doesn't step up this year and the Giants do have to look for another QB that makes the 18/19/20 first round strategy effectively one giant wet fart, and is a huge step back as a whole for the organization.
That's why those of us who are bearish on Jones want to move on quickly in case that's what happens.
I think the drafting of Simms & Eli turned out to be fine, even if we could have had Marino or Rodgers. All franchises could play that game. Those 2 helped us win 4 Lombardis.
&-for all the bitching we do recently-25 odd fan bases would trade their history for ours.
Yeah I'm definitely not bitching about either player. I love those guys.
And how they even got a draft pick (after those first two) is all on rep. This guy has done nothing.
It goes to show you that NFL teams don’t agree with fans on player value.
That's true, and goes back to what bw said about Jones possibly netting a first round pick. He might be right about that. It's easy to imagine a team that had a high draft grade on him saying "The Giants are a mess and that's why he struggled".
I just want a quarterback that was brought here with Judge's influence and ethos as the primary methodology for doing so.
And how they even got a draft pick (after those first two) is all on rep. This guy has done nothing.
In Darnold's defense, his second half of 2019 was a good showing. I detailed it yesterday. The Jets went 6-2, Darnold had 13/4 TDs/INTs and he ran for 2 TDs. And the YPA was 7.3 and his QBR was 64.
So the narrative at the end of '19 was those last 8 games would be a catalyst for bigger things in '20. Unfortunately for Darnold '20 was a total nightmare.
he spends 365 x maybe 15 years getting the most from football players and data about football and doing so at the highest level of consequence for getting it right or wrong?
and all the folks on this thread spend a few hours a day arguing badly and without facts without any consequence?
I love this. We are all guilty of this sometimes, but some here really cannot process that the coaches know more. And not just because the coaches "know" more, but because there is practices. There's the film room.
Why is coach Thibs playing Obi Toppin every game, even for a few minutes? Every fricking PC someone asks him why and every single time he says the same thing--Obi is doing EVERYTHING they want him to in in practice.
Don't ignore practices and how players both perform and respond.
If Jones was an older player he wouldn't get the leash he got. He was in the NFL for a hot minute and some of you were and are lambasting the Giants for sticking with him. Really is odd. Odd is one word to use.
the guy had played like 18 total games, surrounded by one of the least talented offenses in football, with little to no practice time due to covid and an entirely NEW COACHING STAFF!!!
Call that what you will. Excuses...great. I call them facts.
And how they even got a draft pick (after those first two) is all on rep. This guy has done nothing.
In Darnold's defense, his second half of 2019 was a good showing. I detailed it yesterday. The Jets went 6-2, Darnold had 13/4 TDs/INTs and he ran for 2 TDs. And the YPA was 7.3 and his QBR was 64.
So the narrative at the end of '19 was those last 8 games would be a catalyst for bigger things in '20. Unfortunately for Darnold '20 was a total nightmare.
this is the fear with Jones. It's a fair point. Nothing is etched in stone. Just because Jones played better over his last 5-6 games doesn't mean it carries over to 2021. But what does give me encouragement is that everything Jones needs to improve upon is correctable with coaching, and he did improve those traits.
Dave Brown couldn't improve because he couldn't really do anything well. He wasn't very good at reading defenses. Wasn't mobile. Wasn't good at all in the pocket. Didn't posses amazing arm talent. He showed progress in 94 but quickly regressed.
If Jones doesn't show good signs early on in 2021, we should be worried, but the Giants are giving Jones a better shot at success than Brown received here.
there's nothing wrong with being nervous that Jones isn't the goods. But I have a hard time with people lambasting the Giants for sticking with him. Sometimes you have to give the kid some rope and live or die with things. Young players are the backbone of a roster. You live and die with em. If you cut bait at every hiccup, you won't win a thing.
This is great because through a Carolina proxy we get to see what a Rhule led, Darnold QB'd team looks like. And will the Giants be better than them.
yes. nor will the intelligentsia here ever own up to it.
Probably makes Pitts dropping to #11 even more unlikely.
If I were a Jets fan I would have traded that #2 pick for a haul and given Darnold another year. Stock up on picks, solidify the OL and add another weapon outside. If Darnold stinks then you at least have the benefit of adding 2 more 1st rounders in '22 and '23 and likely another 3rd and they'll still have a top 5 pick in '22 to go QB.
That *also* may signal Carolina, while they still may draft a QB high, is probably not trading up for a QB, or thinks the cost is too high for the value, so this is more of a hedge.
It feels like someone else is going to trade up ahead of Carolina for another QB.
But if CAR is not in the running for a QB, doesn't this put pick 8 in play, in an obviously better spot than pick 11?
Seems like it makes the Giants spot (in terms of a trade down) worse if you think CAR is out of the QB market because of Darnold (which I'm not convinced of - at the small price they paid especially)
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As it takes Carolina out of the running for a QB at 8. It also potentially makes the Giants in a favorable position because Chicago suddenly can make a play for 11 in addition to New England.
But if CAR is not in the running for a QB, doesn't this put pick 8 in play, in an obviously better spot than pick 11?
Seems like it makes the Giants spot (in terms of a trade down) worse if you think CAR is out of the QB market because of Darnold (which I'm not convinced of - at the small price they paid especially)
If Carolina isn't going for a QB and you are convinced that Denver won't be either, Dallas won't unless Jerry Jones does something crazy, then that leaves 11 because Philly or Minnesota could go for one. Even if Denver does go for a QB then the Giants are the last spot to get the last 1st Round QB if you want one.
It would be interesting to find out what Barkley's trade value would be. Even if he's healthy he still might not bring back a 2, 4 and a 6, given that he's a RB.
They try him out for 1 year and can pick up the option if he works out.
It's safe to say we have no clue what Darnold is right now.
if we are talking about a normal Barkley - this is no contest. One has been the rookie of the year and one of the more dynamic offensive players in the entire league when healthy. the other hasn't shown anything.
They try him out for 1 year and can pick up the option if he works out.
It's safe to say we have no clue what Darnold is right now.
Definitely upside though for the Panthers.
Yeah, and they really need a corner. Can see them taking Surtain.
As it turned out, should have been Chubb versus Nelson.
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This was the big debate and it’s still unclear. I’d probably take Barkley over darnold
As it turned out, should have been Chubb versus Nelson.
Chubb tore his ACL just like Barkley did.
I disagree. I think the best case scenario is that Lance (presumably the 5th QB) is there at 11 and NE trades up to our spot yielding 15 and other goodies.
They try him out for 1 year and can pick up the option if he works out.
It's safe to say we have no clue what Darnold is right now.
I heard on the radio his option had to be picked up or declined by 5/3 of this year
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This was the big debate and it’s still unclear. I’d probably take Barkley over darnold///////
if we are talking about a normal Barkley - this is no contest. One has been the rookie of the year and one of the more dynamic offensive players in the entire league when healthy. the other hasn't shown anything.
I wouldn't be crowing about how that draft went down, for either team.
Looks like a deal that works for both teams. Its a really good market for Darnold to go to, NY just wasn't for him.
They try him out for 1 year and can pick up the option if he works out.
It's safe to say we have no clue what Darnold is right now.
Know who he remind me of.....Rick Mirer from Seattle back in the 90s.
That's what I see............
Looks like a deal that works for both teams. Its a really good market for Darnold to go to, NY just wasn't for him.
This is where I am at, less likely we will trade down now, but have to see how it all plays out.
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but it likely means someone that wasn't going to trade into the top 10 for a QB now will. Hard to really know what impact this will have until we see on draft day.
Looks like a deal that works for both teams. Its a really good market for Darnold to go to, NY just wasn't for him.
This is where I am at, less likely we will trade down now, but have to see how it all plays out.
I think it's less likely the Giants trade down regardless. I believe Waddle or Smith will be there at 11 and that's going to be their selection.
Doubt it.
If I were a Jets fan I would have traded that #2 pick for a haul and given Darnold another year. Stock up on picks, solidify the OL and add another weapon outside. If Darnold stinks then you at least have the benefit of adding 2 more 1st rounders in '22 and '23 and likely another 3rd and they'll still have a top 5 pick in '22 to go QB.
^^This^^
It wouldn’t surprise me. I just hope that they don’t take Pitts or one of the WR’s.
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has been really down on Teddy. They could still draft a QB and have him sit behind Darnold for a season. Perhaps Fields.
It wouldn’t surprise me. I just hope that they don’t take Pitts or one of the WR’s.
I'd say that's exactly what they will be doing if they don't trade down.
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This was the big debate and it’s still unclear. I’d probably take Barkley over darnold
As it turned out, should have been Chubb versus Nelson.
Trade down is the best choice but feels like DG didnt get a good enough offer.
agreed. even though they added Darnold I believe they could still add a QB. Why would Ruhle put all his eggs into a QB who has been a bust thus far. And a QB with such serious flaws.
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has been really down on Teddy. They could still draft a QB and have him sit behind Darnold for a season. Perhaps Fields.
agreed. even though they added Darnold I believe they could still add a QB. Why would Ruhle put all his eggs into a QB who has been a bust thus far. And a QB with such serious flaws.
I don't think he becomes a world beater by any means but I think he will show he can at least win some games in Carolina.
They can start Darnold, see what they have, and if he flops, move on to their #1 pick.
Look, the guy needs a change of scenery. So maybe Rhule can rehabilitate him.
Unless the Jets get that OL fixed, I wonder if Fields isn't a better fit for them than Wilson...A bigger, stronger, faster athlete with a very good arm as well.
They can start Darnold, see what they have, and if he flops, move on to their #1 pick.
Exactly. Lance would be a great pick for them, but he's going number 3 to San Fran.
But I still think all five QBs go before #11. That will push a player down to us, most likely one of Waddle or Smith. But it reduces the chance of a trade down, since I don't think anyone will trade up for a non-QB.
In it he mentions that Darnold makes occasional plays that make you go wow, that was great. But then he makes just as many mistakes that are so fundamental even high school QBs have mastered them, and it makes you wonder why Darnold hasn't mastered them yet, and if he ever will. Because if he can't master these things, he can't be a successful NFL starter.
In the same podcast he insists that pro QB analysts can judge a QB regardless of his context, because they are looking at concise, repeatable actions and moments. Which is why the mantra on here that we can't judge Jones based on what has already happened is bunk. But that's another story.
If anyone has an interest in this Cosell podcast appearance I can find it pretty easily and link it here.
It's ok to have 2 QBs.
I agree. My bet is they try to upgrade the parts around Darnold to give him the best chance to succeed.
Because that would be a tough sell to the fan base - assuming Tepper cares about that - drafting a QB after giving up pretty good draft capital to obtain Darnold.
Like us with Jones and Barkley, Darnold is going to need a healthy CMac.
Better for our trade down chances. 1 less team in top 10 looking for a QB.
1 maybe drops to us & NE & Chi look to jump up.
Btw, I don’t think Atl takes a QB just yet. 1 can hope.
2. Trade Down (NE or WFT)
3. Defense (my guess: cornerback)
4. QB (don't think it happens, though, after trading 3 picks and presumably picking up that 18 mil option for Darnold for 2022)
I think the Panthers ultimately go Slater or trade down to a team looking for QB and the top 11 shakes out like this.
1. JAX: Lawrence
2. NYJ: Wilson
3. SF: QB3 TBD
4. ATL/DEN: QB4 TBD (I think a Falcons/Broncos trade is a real possibility, obviously not alone in that assessment).
5. CIN: Sewell or Chase
6. MIA: Chase or Pitts...maybe Sewell but that's option 3
7. DET: Whoever is left from Sewell, Chase, Pitts
8. CAR: Slater or trade down to team for QB5.
9. DEN/ATL: Defense
10. DAL: Defense
11. NYG: Thinking Smith based on previous asshat info on BBI.
Just spitballing for fun, who the hell knows.
Didn't follow Bridgewater at all in Carolina, but his stats were not too shabby -- 69.1% completion for 3,733 yards. 15 TDs and 11 INTs. 92.1 QB Rating. We've seen worse in NY.
Who would have thought that the one time you and FMiC agree on something, you'd both be wrong ;>)
I highly doubt that Carolina gave up a 2, 4 and a 6 for a young QB without committing to picking up Darnold's $18M option.
And if they're making that kind of commitment, why would they draft a QB in RD-1?
The thing is, and not sure if this is a "problem" or not, but odds are that it will be Waddle sitting there.
So I've been thinking, is Waddle a receiving threat they'd be happy to have over edge or trading back? Not sure.
Jets get to rebuild around Wilson who I like more than Darnold coming out.
Should be exciting for both teams. Jets are loaded qith picks. Theyll have aome fun drafts the next two years.
Priceless!
The thing is, and not sure if this is a "problem" or not, but odds are that it will be Waddle sitting there.
So I've been thinking, is Waddle a receiving threat they'd be happy to have over edge or trading back? Not sure.
I agree and my concerns with Waddle, which may be irrational in part, is my own worst case scenario. If we do end up picking him I’m just going to have to suck it up and hope the lower leg injuries don’t hit him.
Sewell isn't getting past the Bengals.
Definitely not odd ... seems rather even handed ...
If the Jets can get a second for Darnold makes me wonder what we could get for Jones.
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has been really down on Teddy. They could still draft a QB and have him sit behind Darnold for a season. Perhaps Fields.
Didn't follow Bridgewater at all in Carolina, but his stats were not too shabby -- 69.1% completion for 3,733 yards. 15 TDs and 11 INTs. 92.1 QB Rating. We've seen worse in NY.
Will be really interesting to see where Bridgewater lands. NFL.com article I read seemed to indicate Carolina will trade him rather than keep him around to backup Darnold.
Seems like Teddy could be redundant in Chicago (Dalton) and NE (Cam). Staying in the NFCS may be the thing for him. Maybe ATL as a "bridge" between Ryan and a TBD young qb? Back to NO to jump into the fray with Taysom and Jameis? Not much backing up Brady in TB, so how about there.
Other than that, to PIT in case Ben breaks down?
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their #8 pick to protect Darnold.
Sewell isn't getting past the Bengals.
If not, then Slater is there if they go OL. If they don't go OL then getting a good receiver is another good possibility for Rhule to draft.
Every team positioned to take a new QB at the top of the draft is "potentially in a good spot".
Calm down. I'm not saying anything else.
So sensitive.
Makes me wonder how much we would get for Jones if we decide to move on...probably not much more that what the Jets got, maybe less.
Yes, it’s so lost. Good lord, can you be any more dramatic.
Post something of interest and get it back on track then. If you can post something of interest...
& I believe the Jets Twitter reposted that or whatever. What a loser organization. I hope Darnold succeeds in Carolina; he seems like a good dude from all I've seen of him & would love for him to stick it to the Jets if he has some success.
The thing is, and not sure if this is a "problem" or not, but odds are that it will be Waddle sitting there.
So I've been thinking, is Waddle a receiving threat they'd be happy to have over edge or trading back? Not sure.
Of the three passcatchers you mention (and I wish I could be as confident as you that one will be available), Pitts is the surest thing (with both the highest upside and highest floor), but the poorest fit in terms of complementing the other pieces on the 2021 roster.
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if they want the pass catcher.
The thing is, and not sure if this is a "problem" or not, but odds are that it will be Waddle sitting there.
So I've been thinking, is Waddle a receiving threat they'd be happy to have over edge or trading back? Not sure.
In some ways, Waddle is the ideal complement to Golladay. His injury history is what concerns me, not his value on the field.
Of the three passcatchers you mention (and I wish I could be as confident as you that one will be available), Pitts is the surest thing (with both the highest upside and highest floor), but the poorest fit in terms of complementing the other pieces on the 2021 roster.
Pretty sure the math on one of them being there is solid. Is it possible one is not? Sure.
I see it as 5 QBs + Sewell + Chase + Surtain
Only 4 QBs may go, but there's also the chance another corner and/or Parsons goes top 10.
I can't believe I'm writing this, but if the Jets can land a two for Darnold (plus the four and six) we might be able to get a one for Jones.
I know it's purely academic, but I would take a first rounder in a second for Jones.
Lance is likely going at 3 & Fields likely will be gone.
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No idea. Gotta want to trade him first. If he has the kind of season in 2021 where the Giants want to trade him, it's going to be less than what they could get today.
I can't believe I'm writing this, but if the Jets can land a two for Darnold (plus the four and six) we might be able to get a one for Jones.
I know it's purely academic, but I would take a first rounder in a second for Jones.
It's purely stupid.
Jones hasn't shown enough to be considered a sure thing franchise QB.
But unless you're looking through the a biased/pessimistic lens, which we know you and others are, he's shown enough to deserve another opportunity. He seems to have all the intangibles and his teammates and coaches love him. He needs improvement but can we stop pretending he brings nothing to the table?
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In comment 15210349 Chris684 said:
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if they want the pass catcher.
The thing is, and not sure if this is a "problem" or not, but odds are that it will be Waddle sitting there.
So I've been thinking, is Waddle a receiving threat they'd be happy to have over edge or trading back? Not sure.
In some ways, Waddle is the ideal complement to Golladay. His injury history is what concerns me, not his value on the field.
Of the three passcatchers you mention (and I wish I could be as confident as you that one will be available), Pitts is the surest thing (with both the highest upside and highest floor), but the poorest fit in terms of complementing the other pieces on the 2021 roster.
Pretty sure the math on one of them being there is solid. Is it possible one is not? Sure.
I see it as 5 QBs + Sewell + Chase + Surtain
Only 4 QBs may go, but there's also the chance another corner and/or Parsons goes top 10.
Even if only 4 QBs go, you add Pitts to the definites and you are left with Smith and Waddle at 8.
4 QBs, + Sewell + Chase + Surtain + Pitts.
Dal is definitely not going WR, so that still leaves Smith/Waddle for the Giants at 11. It all depends on if Surtain is really top 10, before Dal. Not so sure about that.
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In comment 15210397 Go Terps said:
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No idea. Gotta want to trade him first. If he has the kind of season in 2021 where the Giants want to trade him, it's going to be less than what they could get today.
I can't believe I'm writing this, but if the Jets can land a two for Darnold (plus the four and six) we might be able to get a one for Jones.
I know it's purely academic, but I would take a first rounder in a second for Jones.
It's purely stupid.
Jones hasn't shown enough to be considered a sure thing franchise QB.
But unless you're looking through the a biased/pessimistic lens, which we know you and others are, he's shown enough to deserve another opportunity. He seems to have all the intangibles and his teammates and coaches love him. He needs improvement but can we stop pretending he brings nothing to the table?
It didn't cross your mind for a minute or two that if the Jets could fetch a second for Darnold what we could get for Jones?
I'm not suggesting Jones doesn't bring anything to the table - I've said he has an appealing deep and he has the ability to get on the edge on designed runs for real positive yardage - but the bigger question that needs to be answered is does Jones bring enough to the table. Which is basically the design of this year with all of the upgrades on offense.
Lance is likely going at 3 & Fields likely will be gone.
It's just a passing thought since the Jets got much more than I thought for Darnold. I would have guess, at best, a third for Darnold. To get a package of a two, four and six is pretty damn good...
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In comment 15210539 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15210397 Go Terps said:
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No idea. Gotta want to trade him first. If he has the kind of season in 2021 where the Giants want to trade him, it's going to be less than what they could get today.
I can't believe I'm writing this, but if the Jets can land a two for Darnold (plus the four and six) we might be able to get a one for Jones.
I know it's purely academic, but I would take a first rounder in a second for Jones.
It's purely stupid.
Jones hasn't shown enough to be considered a sure thing franchise QB.
But unless you're looking through the a biased/pessimistic lens, which we know you and others are, he's shown enough to deserve another opportunity. He seems to have all the intangibles and his teammates and coaches love him. He needs improvement but can we stop pretending he brings nothing to the table?
It didn't cross your mind for a minute or two that if the Jets could fetch a second for Darnold what we could get for Jones?
I'm not suggesting Jones doesn't bring anything to the table - I've said he has an appealing deep and he has the ability to get on the edge on designed runs for real positive yardage - but the bigger question that needs to be answered is does Jones bring enough to the table. Which is basically the design of this year with all of the upgrades on offense.
Honestly? No.
Today the only thought that crossed my mind on Jones was how great I thought it was to hear that he’s organizing throwing sessions with his teammates out in Arizona and that he has a real sense of leadership and maturity to be heading into only his 3rd season.
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Unless there is a conviction that any of Lance, Fields or Mac Jones is significantly better than Jones, I just don’t see the point making that move now.
Lance is likely going at 3 & Fields likely will be gone.
It's just a passing thought since the Jets got much more than I thought for Darnold. I would have guess, at best, a third for Darnold. To get a package of a two, four and six is pretty damn good...
What's the point of getting a package of 2, 4, 6 if you aren't confident you'll get a QB better than Jones? We still don't have a good idea of Jones's ceiling or floor.
Link - ( New Window )
yea.. I have been wondering if the Jets take a long look at Lance.
They can start Darnold, see what they have, and if he flops, move on to their #1 pick.
I seriously doubt it. Rhule isn't trading away all those picks for a backup QB, then invest another 1st rd pick in a QB.
I think it was Brady Quinn on SiriusXM NFL station that was saying the same thing.
Just because Brady Quinn and some other folks don’t think Wilson is the goods doesn’t mean much to me.
Maybe the guy really sucks, but his last year in college loudly says otherwise.
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It's just a passing thought since the Jets got much more than I thought for Darnold. I would have guess, at best, a third for Darnold. To get a package of a two, four and six is pretty damn good...
What's the point of getting a package of 2, 4, 6 if you aren't confident you'll get a QB better than Jones? We still don't have a good idea of Jones's ceiling or floor.
I'm suggesting we could likely get a first for Jones after the Jets got a second for Darnold.
So I'm just spit-balling here so give me some rope, but if we could get a first rounder for Jones - say the Bears gave us their 20th pick - we could have some nice draft capital to package the 11th and 20th to move up to nab one of these talented guys this year.
Because I think the big four in this draft - Lawrence, Fields, Wilson, and Lance - are much more talented than Jones.
Obviously the Giants aren't going to give up on Jones. But there are interesting reasons to say they should cut bait, and draft a more talented QB.
Obviously the Giants aren't going to give up on Jones. But there are interesting reasons to say they should cut bait, and draft a more talented QB.
More like shit-balling? Asking for a friend...:)
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that bw spitballs so much that he has chronic cotton mouth.
More like shit-balling? Asking for a friend...:)
Gotta love the logic too. Giants reached for Jones who sucks, but we can get a first rounder this year in order to reach for another. NURSE!
Simms thinks it will be Mac Jones based on the kind of QB Shanahan has liked and worked with in the past. He never said it was definite.
I agree. I think it's going to be Lance.
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In comment 15210880 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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that bw spitballs so much that he has chronic cotton mouth.
More like shit-balling? Asking for a friend...:)
Gotta love the logic too. Giants reached for Jones who sucks, but we can get a first rounder this year in order to reach for another. NURSE!
A first rounder on Jones would be pretty nice. How early of a pick do you think before the Giants should consider it?
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In comment 15210885 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 15210880 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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that bw spitballs so much that he has chronic cotton mouth.
More like shit-balling? Asking for a friend...:)
Gotta love the logic too. Giants reached for Jones who sucks, but we can get a first rounder this year in order to reach for another. NURSE!
A first rounder on Jones would be pretty nice. How early of a pick do you think before the Giants should consider it?
Huh?
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really wanted Mac Jones, there would be no need for them to trade up to #3.
I agree. I think it's going to be Lance.
I think Fields.
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In comment 15210263 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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has been really down on Teddy. They could still draft a QB and have him sit behind Darnold for a season. Perhaps Fields.
Didn't follow Bridgewater at all in Carolina, but his stats were not too shabby -- 69.1% completion for 3,733 yards. 15 TDs and 11 INTs. 92.1 QB Rating. We've seen worse in NY.
Will be really interesting to see where Bridgewater lands. NFL.com article I read seemed to indicate Carolina will trade him rather than keep him around to backup Darnold.
Seems like Teddy could be redundant in Chicago (Dalton) and NE (Cam). Staying in the NFCS may be the thing for him. Maybe ATL as a "bridge" between Ryan and a TBD young qb? Back to NO to jump into the fray with Taysom and Jameis? Not much backing up Brady in TB, so how about there.
Other than that, to PIT in case Ben breaks down?
Another Bridgewater option may be Denver.
I'm not suggesting it. I was referring to people here continually bashing Jones and now suggesting they could get a #1 for him.
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dealing Jones per the above post? Or does any pick in Rd 1 work?
I'm not suggesting it. I was referring to people here continually bashing Jones and now suggesting they could get a #1 for him.
Not saying you did, but you were commenting on that concept.
So was asking what you thought about him in relation to a first round pick?
No wonder Jets fans are irate.
No wonder Jets fans are irate.
It's not good, but if they find a stud QB this draft, none of it will matter.
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dealing Jones per the above post? Or does any pick in Rd 1 work?
I'm not suggesting it. I was referring to people here continually bashing Jones and now suggesting they could get a #1 for him.
Let me try to slow this down for you.
I'm not saying I would give up a first for Jones. But the market just might because a team gave up a 2,4 and 6 for Ghost Darnold. So why would it be such a leap to think we could possibly - amazingly - get a first for Jones?
I hope that helps add color to your world.
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In comment 15210984 Jimmy Googs said:
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dealing Jones per the above post? Or does any pick in Rd 1 work?
I'm not suggesting it. I was referring to people here continually bashing Jones and now suggesting they could get a #1 for him.
Let me try to slow this down for you.
I'm not saying I would give up a first for Jones. But the market just might because a team gave up a 2,4 and 6 for Ghost Darnold. So why would it be such a leap to think we could possibly - amazingly - get a first for Jones?
I hope that helps add color to your world.
I don't think we can get a first for Jones.
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In comment 15210997 Victor in CT said:
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In comment 15210984 Jimmy Googs said:
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dealing Jones per the above post? Or does any pick in Rd 1 work?
I'm not suggesting it. I was referring to people here continually bashing Jones and now suggesting they could get a #1 for him.
Let me try to slow this down for you.
I'm not saying I would give up a first for Jones. But the market just might because a team gave up a 2,4 and 6 for Ghost Darnold. So why would it be such a leap to think we could possibly - amazingly - get a first for Jones?
I hope that helps add color to your world.
I don't think we can get a first for Jones.
Who asked?
I don't think we can get a first for Jones.
Before the Darnold trade yesterday, I would agree 100%. Today? I think it's 50/50.
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I don't think we can get a first for Jones.
Before the Darnold trade yesterday, I would agree 100%. Today? I think it's 50/50.
Nah.. maybe the same deal as Darnold. A 2nd plus..
No wonder Jets fans are irate.
Are Jet fans irate? friends have seemed to like the trade.
They take a QB at 2.. You then have another 1st, a 2nd and 2 3rds this year and then 2 firsts and 2 seconds next year. Not a bad amount of quality picks to build around him
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In comment 15211027 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15210997 Victor in CT said:
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In comment 15210984 Jimmy Googs said:
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dealing Jones per the above post? Or does any pick in Rd 1 work?
I'm not suggesting it. I was referring to people here continually bashing Jones and now suggesting they could get a #1 for him.
Let me try to slow this down for you.
I'm not saying I would give up a first for Jones. But the market just might because a team gave up a 2,4 and 6 for Ghost Darnold. So why would it be such a leap to think we could possibly - amazingly - get a first for Jones?
I hope that helps add color to your world.
I don't think we can get a first for Jones.
T
Who asked?
I did...why?
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I don't get the line of thought that this was a good deal. Maybe in terms of just how much Darnold sucks "at this point in time" it is. However they traded up to then spend the 3rd pick in Rd 1 on this guy just 3 years ago. Now they walk away with a 2nd, 4th, and 6th, plus they have to "reboot" the whole QB "use the #3 pick thing" all again. In a sense they wasted 3 years for what, a 2nd rd pick next year?
No wonder Jets fans are irate.
Are Jet fans irate? friends have seemed to like the trade.
They take a QB at 2.. You then have another 1st, a 2nd and 2 3rds this year and then 2 firsts and 2 seconds next year. Not a bad amount of quality picks to build around him
seriously. some Giants fans on here fantasize that Jets fans are in a constant state of hellish agony. I think they have reason for optimism. I used to root actively against the Jets. Now I am just indifferent.
In it he mentions that Darnold makes occasional plays that make you go wow, that was great. But then he makes just as many mistakes that are so fundamental even high school QBs have mastered them, and it makes you wonder why Darnold hasn't mastered them yet, and if he ever will. Because if he can't master these things, he can't be a successful NFL starter.
In the same podcast he insists that pro QB analysts can judge a QB regardless of his context, because they are looking at concise, repeatable actions and moments. Which is why the mantra on here that we can't judge Jones based on what has already happened is bunk. But that's another story.
If anyone has an interest in this Cosell podcast appearance I can find it pretty easily and link it here.
Bunk? Bullshit. Jones was displaying bad decision making and he was indecisive, he was holding the ball too long through the first 7-8 games of 2020. And then he played much better through the final 8 games. As usual, this is ignored by you and a few others around here.
Again, no one doubts that Jones was struggling first half of 2020. Shit even Judge alluded to this.
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He did a great quick podcast analysis of Darnold early in the season. It was very instructive.
In it he mentions that Darnold makes occasional plays that make you go wow, that was great. But then he makes just as many mistakes that are so fundamental even high school QBs have mastered them, and it makes you wonder why Darnold hasn't mastered them yet, and if he ever will. Because if he can't master these things, he can't be a successful NFL starter.
In the same podcast he insists that pro QB analysts can judge a QB regardless of his context, because they are looking at concise, repeatable actions and moments. Which is why the mantra on here that we can't judge Jones based on what has already happened is bunk. But that's another story.
If anyone has an interest in this Cosell podcast appearance I can find it pretty easily and link it here.
Bunk? Bullshit. Jones was displaying bad decision making and he was indecisive, he was holding the ball too long through the first 7-8 games of 2020. And then he played much better through the final 8 games. As usual, this is ignored by you and a few others around here.
Again, no one doubts that Jones was struggling first half of 2020. Shit even Judge alluded to this.
Yea they reigned him in and instead of turning the ball over, an improvement, he couldn't move the offense, a set back. I don't think by the end of the year Jones looked very good at all. His game resembled Brock Osweiler's.
Be careful with this. Real life NFL personnel people think differently than armchair QBs on the interwebz.
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In comment 15210321 Producer said:
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He did a great quick podcast analysis of Darnold early in the season. It was very instructive.
In it he mentions that Darnold makes occasional plays that make you go wow, that was great. But then he makes just as many mistakes that are so fundamental even high school QBs have mastered them, and it makes you wonder why Darnold hasn't mastered them yet, and if he ever will. Because if he can't master these things, he can't be a successful NFL starter.
In the same podcast he insists that pro QB analysts can judge a QB regardless of his context, because they are looking at concise, repeatable actions and moments. Which is why the mantra on here that we can't judge Jones based on what has already happened is bunk. But that's another story.
If anyone has an interest in this Cosell podcast appearance I can find it pretty easily and link it here.
Bunk? Bullshit. Jones was displaying bad decision making and he was indecisive, he was holding the ball too long through the first 7-8 games of 2020. And then he played much better through the final 8 games. As usual, this is ignored by you and a few others around here.
Again, no one doubts that Jones was struggling first half of 2020. Shit even Judge alluded to this.
Yea they reigned him in and instead of turning the ball over, an improvement, he couldn't move the offense, a set back. I don't think by the end of the year Jones looked very good at all. His game resembled Brock Osweiler's.
Ok. That's a laughable comparison but whatever works for you. Watch the Skins, Philly and Dallas games again. You need to if that's the comparison you came up with.
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I don't get the line of thought that this was a good deal. Maybe in terms of just how much Darnold sucks "at this point in time" it is. However they traded up to then spend the 3rd pick in Rd 1 on this guy just 3 years ago. Now they walk away with a 2nd, 4th, and 6th, plus they have to "reboot" the whole QB "use the #3 pick thing" all again. In a sense they wasted 3 years for what, a 2nd rd pick next year?
No wonder Jets fans are irate.
Are Jet fans irate? friends have seemed to like the trade.
They take a QB at 2.. You then have another 1st, a 2nd and 2 3rds this year and then 2 firsts and 2 seconds next year. Not a bad amount of quality picks to build around him
I know plenty of Jets fans, including my brother, who are not happy for all the reasons I listed above. If this was the Giants many here would likely be ripping the organization. Its been a terrible 3 years for them. Just because they have some picks lined up moving forward doesn't relieve them of the horrible past and present. Plus these are picks, who knows how they turn out.
Yes Jets fans are not happy on wasting all this time on Darnold, and only getting a 2nd next year (the other picks came from other places). Plus remember they traded up to get him.
They aren't trading Jones this draft so why does it matter?
I mean anyone could make this trade. Doesn't take amazing foresight or talent to trade a struggling QB for decent draft capital.
This is all roses and sunshine for the Jets. Cleaning house is always easy, the hard part is building the team back up again and actually winning. Jets need to nail the QB pick. They usually fuck it up. I'd be nervous about picking a QB that feasted on lousy teams but some of those kids translate to the pros. Time will tell.
They traded three 2nd round picks to move up 3 spots and draft Sam Darnold #3 overall.
So they gave up a 1st and three 2nd round picks on a QB that is no longer on the roster three years later, and in return got a 2nd, 4th, and 6th and have no QB.
Oh, but I guess they are forward thinking and not afraid to cut ties. Oh, and THIS TIME they'll get it right considering their long history of successful drafting.
Massive failure.
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In comment 15211022 PatersonPlank said:
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I don't get the line of thought that this was a good deal. Maybe in terms of just how much Darnold sucks "at this point in time" it is. However they traded up to then spend the 3rd pick in Rd 1 on this guy just 3 years ago. Now they walk away with a 2nd, 4th, and 6th, plus they have to "reboot" the whole QB "use the #3 pick thing" all again. In a sense they wasted 3 years for what, a 2nd rd pick next year?
No wonder Jets fans are irate.
Are Jet fans irate? friends have seemed to like the trade.
They take a QB at 2.. You then have another 1st, a 2nd and 2 3rds this year and then 2 firsts and 2 seconds next year. Not a bad amount of quality picks to build around him
I know plenty of Jets fans, including my brother, who are not happy for all the reasons I listed above. If this was the Giants many here would likely be ripping the organization. Its been a terrible 3 years for them. Just because they have some picks lined up moving forward doesn't relieve them of the horrible past and present. Plus these are picks, who knows how they turn out.
Yes Jets fans are not happy on wasting all this time on Darnold, and only getting a 2nd next year (the other picks came from other places). Plus remember they traded up to get him.
There's probably a split between Jet fans; those who think Sam can still turn it around with a better supporting cast, and those who accepted his time with the Jets were done.
Those in the former camp are probably annoyed and those in the later camp are happy.
The organization clearly doesn't think Sam is the answer so they can't just keep him because they gave up draft picks to get him a few years ago
They traded three 2nd round picks to move up 3 spots and draft Sam Darnold #3 overall.
So they gave up a 1st and three 2nd round picks on a QB that is no longer on the roster three years later, and in return got a 2nd, 4th, and 6th and have no QB.
Oh, but I guess they are forward thinking and not afraid to cut ties. Oh, and THIS TIME they'll get it right considering their long history of successful drafting.
Massive failure.
+1
As far as the Giants, I'm assuming you're talking about the Giants with that statement, recognizing failure and moving on from a pick or free agent signing is in fact a good thing.
However, I cannot recall any Giants where such a high stakes player was cut, as in top 5 pick that we traded multiple future draft picks to go get. Maybe you can refresh my memory to to a similar situation. Even if Saquon was cut (which would be bad enough even though I don't envision it happening), he's still just a single draft pick. We did not trade multiple future picks to go get him.
They only traded a 3rd and 5th to move up to 10.
If Darnold goes to Carolina and rebounds, this will be even worse.
Darnold was always going to be a project coming out. The Jets front office and head coach was a disaster, and yes I can relate.
But I'm not ready to give up on Jones either.
This was strangely repeatedly brought up when the Cards drafted Murray and when the Redskins released Haskins. Where are the Skins now? With an aging QB who doesn't have a single playoff appearance
What I don't get is that the same people talking about moving from mistakes quickly as a positive, kill the Giants for every misstep.
If Darnold goes to Carolina and rebounds, this will be even worse.
Not a fair shake in terms of only getting 3 years, or something else?
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but he (Darnold) may also not have gotten a fair shake.
If Darnold goes to Carolina and rebounds, this will be even worse.
Not a fair shake in terms of only getting 3 years, or something else?
Well, like Jones, I think he was also the victim of a poor roster and lame dunk coach in Gase.
This was strangely repeatedly brought up when the Cards drafted Murray and when the Redskins released Haskins. Where are the Skins now? With an aging QB who doesn't have a single playoff appearance
What I don't get is that the same people talking about moving from mistakes quickly as a positive, kill the Giants for every misstep.
What you don’t get is it’s actually the opposite...
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In comment 15211186 Britt in VA said:
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but he (Darnold) may also not have gotten a fair shake.
If Darnold goes to Carolina and rebounds, this will be even worse.
Not a fair shake in terms of only getting 3 years, or something else?
Well, like Jones, I think he was also the victim of a poor roster and lame dunk coach in Gase.
Isn’t that often the scenario top QBs get drafted into though?
I felt like he was as much of a product of his environment as anything else.
It's sort of like Mahomes and Jackson. They've never had to struggle with bad rosters and lame duck coaches.
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do people want to give kudos for recognizing a mistake and pivoting quickly as if the mistake is fixed when it isn't?
This was strangely repeatedly brought up when the Cards drafted Murray and when the Redskins released Haskins. Where are the Skins now? With an aging QB who doesn't have a single playoff appearance
What I don't get is that the same people talking about moving from mistakes quickly as a positive, kill the Giants for every misstep.
What you don’t get is it’s actually the opposite...
LOL. Jimmy Clownshoes. The guy who referenced Jonathan Stewart daily. Sure, Chief.
I think the Jets got a decent haul for a guy who was going to be a backup for them this year. The Darnold experience was horrid for the Jets.
@RichCimini
#Jets recent first-round picks:
2018 Darnold: traded.
2017 Jamal Adams: traded
2016 Darron Lee: traded
2015 Leonard Williams: traded
2014 Calvin Pryor: traded
2013 Dee Milliner: Cut.
2013 Sheldon Richardson: traded
2012 Quinton Coples: Cut.
2011 Muhammad Wilkerson: Cut.
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In comment 15211192 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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do people want to give kudos for recognizing a mistake and pivoting quickly as if the mistake is fixed when it isn't?
This was strangely repeatedly brought up when the Cards drafted Murray and when the Redskins released Haskins. Where are the Skins now? With an aging QB who doesn't have a single playoff appearance
What I don't get is that the same people talking about moving from mistakes quickly as a positive, kill the Giants for every misstep.
What you don’t get is it’s actually the opposite...
LOL. Jimmy Clownshoes. The guy who referenced Jonathan Stewart daily. Sure, Chief.
What are babbling about? Folks like you on the site often would defend that DG made some bad mistakes but realized it and got out of them early versus prior regimes. These weren’t his critics making this statement.
And the only clown laughing out loud seemingly is you today...
The failure is the pick, and then bending over backwards to try to make the pick work. Trading Jones (or Darnold) isn't the failure; it's the end of the error.
The Jets are about to start another rookie QB contract with a really talented prospect - they're a year ahead of us in the cycle.
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In comment 15210984 Jimmy Googs said:
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dealing Jones per the above post? Or does any pick in Rd 1 work?
I'm not suggesting it. I was referring to people here continually bashing Jones and now suggesting they could get a #1 for him.
Let me try to slow this down for you.
I'm not saying I would give up a first for Jones. But the market just might because a team gave up a 2,4 and 6 for Ghost Darnold. So why would it be such a leap to think we could possibly - amazingly - get a first for Jones?
I hope that helps add color to your world.
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I would also consider that a massive failure.
The failure is the pick, and then bending over backwards to try to make the pick work. Trading Jones (or Darnold) isn't the failure; it's the end of the error.
The Jets are about to start another rookie QB contract with a really talented prospect - they're a year ahead of us in the cycle.
Why is it OK to completely design an offense for Jackson but getting Jones players is bending over backwards?
The answer seems obvious.
Jackson was your guy and Jones was not your guy.
Not a great look.
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I would also consider that a massive failure.
The failure is the pick, and then bending over backwards to try to make the pick work. Trading Jones (or Darnold) isn't the failure; it's the end of the error.
The Jets are about to start another rookie QB contract with a really talented prospect - they're a year ahead of us in the cycle.
WTF are you even talking about anymore? A year ahead of us in what cycle?
I felt like he was as much of a product of his environment as anything else.
It's sort of like Mahomes and Jackson. They've never had to struggle with bad rosters and lame duck coaches.
Yeah. I don’t watch the Jets much but the bust label is going to come out from many based on him going 3rd and expectations being high.
Seeing ghosts doesn’t help his case. :-)
Doesn’t anybody want to ever play for the Jets...
Let me try to slow this down for you.
I'm not saying I would give up a first for Jones. But the market just might because a team gave up a 2,4 and 6 for Ghost Darnold. So why would it be such a leap to think we could possibly - amazingly - get a first for Jones?
I hope that helps add color to your world.
Darnold was a more coveted prospect than Jones. Not saying better, but I am think many feel he is the better prospect. I am not among them. I was never for Darnold.
I understand Darnold went 3rd overall compared to Jones at the 6th pick the following year. But using actual performance in the NFL, to date, Darnold is one of the few QBs that Jones looks fairly competent against...
So if you put more credibility on that, which would seem like the right thing to do, Jones would seem more valuable on the market. Just look at Darnold's performance over his three years. They are pretty ugly. Now, he's had some flashes - the second half of '19 - but that's really it as a high mark.
1. Poor OL - this has not been solved; if anything the line looks like it will be thinner
2. Poor pocket presence from Jones
3. A scheme that doesn't utilize what Jones does well, and actually seems to be designed to have him make plays from the pocket
Chris684 - the Jets moved on from their QB mistake this year. I expect we'll be doing that next year. That's what I'm talking about.
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In comment 15211027 bw in dc said:
Let me try to slow this down for you.
I'm not saying I would give up a first for Jones. But the market just might because a team gave up a 2,4 and 6 for Ghost Darnold. So why would it be such a leap to think we could possibly - amazingly - get a first for Jones?
I hope that helps add color to your world.
Darnold was a more coveted prospect than Jones. Not saying better, but I am think many feel he is the better prospect. I am not among them. I was never for Darnold.
I understand Darnold went 3rd overall compared to Jones at the 6th pick the following year. But using actual performance in the NFL, to date, Darnold is one of the few QBs that Jones looks fairly competent against...
So if you put more credibility on that, which would seem like the right thing to do, Jones would seem more valuable on the market. Just look at Darnold's performance over his three years. They are pretty ugly. Now, he's had some flashes - the second half of '19 - but that's really it as a high mark.
1. Poor OL - this has not been solved; if anything the line looks like it will be thinner
2. Poor pocket presence from Jones
3. A scheme that doesn't utilize what Jones does well, and actually seems to be designed to have him make plays from the pocket
Chris684 - the Jets moved on from their QB mistake this year. I expect we'll be doing that next year. That's what I'm talking about.
You have painted yourself into a corner. DG's legacy is tied to Jones. If Jones has a good year, DG stays and will be given credit. You are going to become the BBI whipping boy forever if that happens.
You are in a tough spot.
But right now the burden of proof is on Jones. He has been terrible for two years. That's objectively true, no matter how many excuses people want to make for him.
He'll be better in 2021 than he was in 2020, but that's only because it's next to impossible to be worse than he was. Given the low standards around here I expect even a minimal improvement will be hailed as a great success.
That is a ludicrous statement.
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grateful - I'm not especially excited, no. A deep ball target for Jones hasn't been the problem. The problem has been a combination of:
1. Poor OL - this has not been solved; if anything the line looks like it will be thinner
2. Poor pocket presence from Jones
3. A scheme that doesn't utilize what Jones does well, and actually seems to be designed to have him make plays from the pocket
Chris684 - the Jets moved on from their QB mistake this year. I expect we'll be doing that next year. That's what I'm talking about.
We get to see this year. I disagree with you. What I can promise is that if Jones stinks it up in 2021, I will not make excuses. This is the year. Unlike most on BBI I am inclined to admit mistakes.
You have painted yourself into a corner. DG's legacy is tied to Jones. If Jones has a good year, DG stays and will be given credit. You are going to become the BBI whipping boy forever if that happens.
You are in a tough spot.
Oh my, what a tough spot to be in...
I would agree with other ways of describing his performance, such as, tentative, slow to get rid of ball, needs to improve ball security, inconsistent...
I would agree the jury is still out, but "terrible" is over-stating his level of performance.
If he were on the Eagles, we'd all be saying terrible.
I think this is a good trade for the Jets. They're in a good spot to build around Wilson, who I think is a really good prospect. I'd be excited if I were them.
I thought after 3 years DG deserved to be let go.
I stand by that.
They didn't because they liked they way he worked with Judge.
The Giants did not do what I felt was best for the organization.
I came to forums and expressed my disappointment.
After that.
I let it go.
Whether I was right or wrong about DG or Jones is meaningless.
Regardless, he will be every opportunity to prove whether he is the guy.
I agree with that. The optimists among us see promise and are bullish that with better and more stable OL play, better blocking from TE and RB spots, more weapons, and a second year with the coaching staff will pay big dividends with him. It's really as simple as that.
Otherwise...
I aint burying him yet though. He has shown me enough to be optimistic.
I think some of these guys who get moved on from will go on and have pretty good careers but time will tell.
But I can't let your little nugget of "(DG has) been a bigger disaster for this organization than Ray Handley." slip through without the acknowledgement that it deserves. The breathtaking abject stupidity of this comment made me double check the user name and leads me to believe that you're completely ignorant of history, you're a fool, or you're trolling. I guess I suspect it's the third now. You speak anymore so authoritatively about subjects about which we will never have all the facts, and you veer now into disingenuousness as you clearly have multiple standards that you apply to various personnel and situations. You speak with such confidence that you're right about everything, which is a great attribute I guess except as I remember it your big idea to save the franchise was to draft TJ Hockensen with the 6th pick in the 2019 draft. Would the organization be in a meaningfully better place right now if DG had followed your advice?
Maybe you're too young to remember exactly what Ray Handley did to a team coming off a Super Bowl win with the greatest defensive player in the history of the sport. I guess I gave you too much credit before...
Maybe look to trade Bridgewater, depending on what they see in Darnold?
Another dive deeper into the pit of madness.
Or a Thanks NYG and NYJ shirt by Bills fans for passing on the best player of the draft Josh Allen
Couldn't you have said (and perhaps you did) the same thing when we took Barkley and the Jets took Darnold right after? They were a year ahead of us then, but here we are?
Couldn't you have said (and perhaps you did) the same thing when we took Barkley and the Jets took Darnold right after? They were a year ahead of us then, but here we are?
There's no logic - just unbridled anger.
You have to remember that the clown also thought the Redskins cutting Haskins put them in a better position than us.
And what do they have now? A ragged journeyman who has never played a postseason game. Winning!!
Which isn't unlike where we've been for the past nine years, but I'd say it's unrelated to the QB position mostly.
I don't understand the level of Stockholm Syndrome that has gripped some of the posters on this site.
I don't understand the level of Stockholm Syndrome that has gripped some of the posters on this site.
Okay, never mind. I guess you’re just an idiot.
Respectable
Ray Handley inherited a super bowl champion and a team that was loaded along the OL, loaded at QB, loaded at RB and possessed enough talent on defense to compete for a division title in 1993, THREE years after RH even took over, same defense except some added Broncos.
DG inherited a fucking disaster of epic proportions. 2017 was so bad, it still shocks me to this day. 2018 was so much better and they went 5-11!! That's HOW BAD 2017 truly was.
You're so anti DG and so hell bent on proving to BBI that you know more than anyone else, you can't be objective.
Or, just conjure up 2018 again and again and again.
You would have fired George Young in 1980. You would have kicked Accorsi out in 1999 and again in 2003.
well put on both posts
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nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
That is one tough spot you just put Go Terps in...
Ray Handley inherited a super bowl champion and a team that was loaded along the OL, loaded at QB, loaded at RB and possessed enough talent on defense to compete for a division title in 1993, THREE years after RH even took over, same defense except some added Broncos.
DG inherited a fucking disaster of epic proportions. 2017 was so bad, it still shocks me to this day. 2018 was so much better and they went 5-11!! That's HOW BAD 2017 truly was.
You're so anti DG and so hell bent on proving to BBI that you know more than anyone else, you can't be objective.
Yeah, the Giants killed it in 2018. So much better than 2017. Night and day.
As an added bonus, we get to see if the guy with the stick shoved up his ass will complain that DG still isn't at .500 yet.
Agree, on all three. Wonder which ones make it thru...
The Handley thing was the off season where George Young was basically finished and fucked this franchise for a while. He decided that Bill B would never be a good head coach and would not give him a chance here.
Then, so many of the decisions made by George from that point forward were horrible. If you want to compare track records... George Young from that day forward made more piss poor decisions than most GMs.
He had some bad drafts and even worse... the decisions on free agents and coaches.
As an added bonus, we get to see if the guy with the stick shoved up his ass will complain that DG still isn't at .500 yet.
In the meanwhile, you and the stick up your ass will hold down the fort,..
Love the pick or hate it, picking him is not what dumb GMs do no matter how much you can scream otherwise. The guy's a HOF talent. Enough already.
As an added bonus, we get to see if the guy with the stick shoved up his ass will complain that DG still isn't at .500 yet.
And I'm looking forward to see how you guys rationalize another losing season.
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Handley was a bigger one than Gettleman.
The Handley thing was the off season where George Young was basically finished and fucked this franchise for a while. He decided that Bill B would never be a good head coach and would not give him a chance here.
Then, so many of the decisions made by George from that point forward were horrible. If you want to compare track records... George Young from that day forward made more piss poor decisions than most GMs.
He had some bad drafts and even worse... the decisions on free agents and coaches.
I thought BB had a affair with one of the secretary's which I could see Young and Mara not liking very much. Young made the mistake with Hampton and I think he struggled with adjusted to the FA market. Lots of the problems were missing on Dave Brown. Had he worked out perhaps things would have gone a bit differently and his later years viewed more favorably.
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at least all agree that we want the team to go undefeated.
As an added bonus, we get to see if the guy with the stick shoved up his ass will complain that DG still isn't at .500 yet.
And I'm looking forward to see how you guys rationalize another losing season.
Don't worry. I completely believe that. You do look forward to losses now, don't ya?
I’m talking about AT THE TIME OF THE DRAFT, these were all considered special backs that were taken over perceived needs at QB.
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Handley was a bigger one than Gettleman.
The Handley thing was the off season where George Young was basically finished and fucked this franchise for a while. He decided that Bill B would never be a good head coach and would not give him a chance here.
Then, so many of the decisions made by George from that point forward were horrible. If you want to compare track records... George Young from that day forward made more piss poor decisions than most GMs.
He had some bad drafts and even worse... the decisions on free agents and coaches.
Yes, that was a tough time. The Cowboys rise during the same period made it even worse.
Either way the rationalizations are good for a laugh.
Would think so. The Hall of Fame is not really of much concern right now,
Either way the rationalizations are good for a laugh.
You have an interesting way of showing laughter....
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at least all agree that we want the team to go undefeated.
As an added bonus, we get to see if the guy with the stick shoved up his ass will complain that DG still isn't at .500 yet.
And I'm looking forward to see how you guys rationalize another losing season.
More bullshit. Not one NYG fan here is giving Jones (or DG) a pass if he doesn't show a lot in 2021. But hey, you do you.
Again though, fans that pile on the GM after every loss are fucking dumb. That's sort akin to killing the architect of an airplane when it crashed into the sea due to pilot error, in my book.
Either way the rationalizations are good for a laugh.
Fail to learn? yeah ok. I have conjured up numerous examples of a GM that was on the hot seat for X amount of time only to be all but canonized after that same team of his went on to win and win big. Same with QBs. Usually I just hear silence or some platitude that while true, isn't really relevant.
You're going to be proven wrong here because you discount the impact of the HC. That's cool. Everyone needs to learn from things.
You should though since you love to conjure up 2018 and 2019 at every turn.
I don't even care anymore about those years. MAybe they are excuses and maybe DG walked into Mara's office and demanded that ELi be given another year or so (nope) and maybe he insisted on hiring Shurmur despite some better options available (nope nope) --fine, we can agree that DG didn't have a good 2018 campaign, I won't excuse that even if we all know there were, but fine, roast him for 2018.
Can we just look to 21 and see how this thing looks with another year of Judge in the fold and more cohesiveness with the coaching? You act like teams ALWAYS dramatically improve in 2 years time and if not, cut bait. It's not always that simple. Look forward. We might be on to something here. If not, trust me, you're going to get your pound of flesh. I don't think we want that to happen. I know I don't.
Coaching makes all the difference. Shurmur had an enormous impact on things here.
I don't understand the level of Stockholm Syndrome that has gripped some of the posters on this site.
We agree?
He wasn't let go.
You and I can't change that.
They said it was because of the way Judge & worked as a unit.
We can choose to believe that or not.
Their reasoning is irrelevant.
It fucking happened and it is over.
This is our new world.
I could choose to eviscerate everything he does and complain about his past failures incessantly.
I could do that.
I don't, because it is a miserable way to root for a team.
What are you getting out this?
I don't have Stockholm syndrome, if they fired him tomorrow I would throw a fucking party.
Until then, I am going to root for the players on the team and the people coaching them because it is better than expecting them to fail.
So Shurmur was the pilot making errors in your view and caused the issues?
Just a few posts above you said that 2018 was so much better than 2017. Didn’t Shurmur become the coach in 2018?
This is confusing where you are placing the blame on the airplane crashing....
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In comment 15211552 djm said:
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nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
We should have drafted him on lay-away.
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at least all agree that we want the team to go undefeated.
As an added bonus, we get to see if the guy with the stick shoved up his ass will complain that DG still isn't at .500 yet.
And I'm looking forward to see how you guys rationalize another losing season.
I just don't get how you can say that will be the case. There is really nothing to suggest that it would be. I think, as is your wont, your just posting by emotion.
Barkley is a unique talent but he needs to be on the field. Jones has had his own injury issues and part of his injuries are his fault imo. It may not be fair but it is part of the evaluation.
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In comment 15211552 djm said:
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nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
Uh, for the memory challenged (may I suggest Prevagen as a solution), those eras for those RBs were COMPLETELY different to today's brand of football. Those eras were focused on the running game as the primary means to move the football.
JFC...send me your address and I will send you Football for Dummies, BBI edition.
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In comment 15211561 Victor in CT said:
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In comment 15211552 djm said:
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nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
Uh, for the memory challenged (may I suggest Prevagen as a solution), those eras for those RBs were COMPLETELY different to today's brand of football. Those eras were focused on the running game as the primary means to move the football.
JFC...send me your address and I will send you Football for Dummies, BBI edition.
Firstly, you have my address. Secondly, I’ve seen the book and the beautiful dedication in your honor..
‘60s and ‘70s where they had Namath, Unitas, Tarkenton, Brodie, Jurgenson, Hadl, Stabler, to name some? Even Archie Manning slung it.
How about the ‘80s and ‘90s with Marino, Fouts, Moon, Esiason, Elway and Montana to name some as well? They didn’t sling it either? Maybe they didn’t throw it 40-50 times a game as a rule, but they threw it plenty.
Different era? As though they wouldn’t have drafted Brown, Sanders, Payton, Dickerson et al very high TODAY as well..
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.
You should though since you love to conjure up 2018 and 2019 at every turn.
I don't even care anymore about those years. MAybe they are excuses and maybe DG walked into Mara's office and demanded that ELi be given another year or so (nope) and maybe he insisted on hiring Shurmur despite some better options available (nope nope) --fine, we can agree that DG didn't have a good 2018 campaign, I won't excuse that even if we all know there were, but fine, roast him for 2018.
Can we just look to 21 and see how this thing looks with another year of Judge in the fold and more cohesiveness with the coaching? You act like teams ALWAYS dramatically improve in 2 years time and if not, cut bait. It's not always that simple. Look forward. We might be on to something here. If not, trust me, you're going to get your pound of flesh. I don't think we want that to happen. I know I don't.
No, that's not how any relationship works. You can't just hand wave away the past. If I walked up to you 3 days in a row and punched you in the face, are you going to offer to shake my hand on the 4th day?
DG, and Mara too, deserve no benefit of the doubt for the way this team has been run since DG was hired (and for Mara since TC was fired). Why should we believe that things are just going to magically get better? Certainly JJ is a step in the right direction, but until proven otherwise DGs Giants are a bad team and we should continue to expect them to be bad until he's fired.
As far as cutting bait goes. Kiper was in TMKS today talking about the Darnold trade and he said "I grew up on the era when you used to develop a quarterback. Now of you're not lights out by year three, especially year four, you're getting kicked to the curb."
This can be extrapolated to HCs, GMs, and even other sports. It's produce or get out and give the next guy a try. Patience doesn't exist in pro team sports any more.
‘60s and ‘70s where they had Namath, Unitas, Tarkenton, Brodie, Jurgenson, Hadl, Stabler, to name some? Even Archie Manning slung it.
How about the ‘80s and ‘90s with Marino, Fouts, Moon, Esiason, Elway and Montana to name some as well? They didn’t sling it either? Maybe they didn’t throw it 40-50 times a game as a rule, but they threw it plenty.
Different era? As though they wouldn’t have drafted Brown, Sanders, Payton, Dickerson et al very high TODAY as well..
Oops, forgot Tittle in the ‘60s
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In comment 15211654 Jimmy Googs said:
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.
You should though since you love to conjure up 2018 and 2019 at every turn.
I don't even care anymore about those years. MAybe they are excuses and maybe DG walked into Mara's office and demanded that ELi be given another year or so (nope) and maybe he insisted on hiring Shurmur despite some better options available (nope nope) --fine, we can agree that DG didn't have a good 2018 campaign, I won't excuse that even if we all know there were, but fine, roast him for 2018.
Can we just look to 21 and see how this thing looks with another year of Judge in the fold and more cohesiveness with the coaching? You act like teams ALWAYS dramatically improve in 2 years time and if not, cut bait. It's not always that simple. Look forward. We might be on to something here. If not, trust me, you're going to get your pound of flesh. I don't think we want that to happen. I know I don't.
No, that's not how any relationship works. You can't just hand wave away the past. If I walked up to you 3 days in a row and punched you in the face, are you going to offer to shake my hand on the 4th day?
DG, and Mara too, deserve no benefit of the doubt for the way this team has been run since DG was hired (and for Mara since TC was fired). Why should we believe that things are just going to magically get better? Certainly JJ is a step in the right direction, but until proven otherwise DGs Giants are a bad team and we should continue to expect them to be bad until he's fired.
As far as cutting bait goes. Kiper was in TMKS today talking about the Darnold trade and he said "I grew up on the era when you used to develop a quarterback. Now of you're not lights out by year three, especially year four, you're getting kicked to the curb."
This can be extrapolated to HCs, GMs, and even other sports. It's produce or get out and give the next guy a try. Patience doesn't exist in pro team sports any more.
As far as cutting bait goes. Kiper was in TMKS today talking about the Darnold trade and he said "I grew up on the era when you used to develop a quarterback. Now of you're not lights out by year three, especially year four, you're getting kicked to the curb."
This can be extrapolated to HCs, GMs, and even other sports. It's produce or get out and give the next guy a try. Patience doesn't exist in pro team sports any more.
Except after 25 games, many want to do exactly that with Jones..
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In comment 15211552 djm said:
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nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
it's almost as if the salary cap, positional value, and any knowledge of how teams win in the modern NFL are completely foreign to you.
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In comment 15211659 djm said:
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In comment 15211654 Jimmy Googs said:
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.
You should though since you love to conjure up 2018 and 2019 at every turn.
I don't even care anymore about those years. MAybe they are excuses and maybe DG walked into Mara's office and demanded that ELi be given another year or so (nope) and maybe he insisted on hiring Shurmur despite some better options available (nope nope) --fine, we can agree that DG didn't have a good 2018 campaign, I won't excuse that even if we all know there were, but fine, roast him for 2018.
Can we just look to 21 and see how this thing looks with another year of Judge in the fold and more cohesiveness with the coaching? You act like teams ALWAYS dramatically improve in 2 years time and if not, cut bait. It's not always that simple. Look forward. We might be on to something here. If not, trust me, you're going to get your pound of flesh. I don't think we want that to happen. I know I don't.
No, that's not how any relationship works. You can't just hand wave away the past. If I walked up to you 3 days in a row and punched you in the face, are you going to offer to shake my hand on the 4th day?
DG, and Mara too, deserve no benefit of the doubt for the way this team has been run since DG was hired (and for Mara since TC was fired). Why should we believe that things are just going to magically get better? Certainly JJ is a step in the right direction, but until proven otherwise DGs Giants are a bad team and we should continue to expect them to be bad until he's fired.
As far as cutting bait goes. Kiper was in TMKS today talking about the Darnold trade and he said "I grew up on the era when you used to develop a quarterback. Now of you're not lights out by year three, especially year four, you're getting kicked to the curb."
This can be extrapolated to HCs, GMs, and even other sports. It's produce or get out and give the next guy a try. Patience doesn't exist in pro team sports any more.
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As far as cutting bait goes. Kiper was in TMKS today talking about the Darnold trade and he said "I grew up on the era when you used to develop a quarterback. Now of you're not lights out by year three, especially year four, you're getting kicked to the curb."
This can be extrapolated to HCs, GMs, and even other sports. It's produce or get out and give the next guy a try. Patience doesn't exist in pro team sports any more.
Except after 25 games, many want to do exactly that with Jones..
And if the Giants were picking #2 it absolutely should have been considered
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In comment 15211561 Victor in CT said:
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In comment 15211552 djm said:
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nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
it's almost as if the salary cap, positional value, and any knowledge of how teams win in the modern NFL are completely foreign to you.
Yes, foreign to me..Lawd
‘60s and ‘70s where they had Namath, Unitas, Tarkenton, Brodie, Jurgenson, Hadl, Stabler, to name some? Even Archie Manning slung it.
How about the ‘80s and ‘90s with Marino, Fouts, Moon, Esiason, Elway and Montana to name some as well? They didn’t sling it either? Maybe they didn’t throw it 40-50 times a game as a rule, but they threw it plenty.
Different era? As though they wouldn’t have drafted Brown, Sanders, Payton, Dickerson et al very high TODAY as well..
In today's game? I wouldn't draft any of those RBs in the first round - unless I was a perennial contender (like the Pats, Chiefs, GB, etc) and happened to have an incredibly high pick. I have to be consistent.
Do you really want to compare pass attempts of the '60s, '70s. '80's etc to today's games. I don't even have to look it up and feel pretty damn good that those eras had more rushing attempts than passing attempts for winning teams. That's how teams won back then...
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bygone eras, how far back do you want to go?
‘60s and ‘70s where they had Namath, Unitas, Tarkenton, Brodie, Jurgenson, Hadl, Stabler, to name some? Even Archie Manning slung it.
How about the ‘80s and ‘90s with Marino, Fouts, Moon, Esiason, Elway and Montana to name some as well? They didn’t sling it either? Maybe they didn’t throw it 40-50 times a game as a rule, but they threw it plenty.
Different era? As though they wouldn’t have drafted Brown, Sanders, Payton, Dickerson et al very high TODAY as well..
In today's game? I wouldn't draft any of those RBs in the first round - unless I was a perennial contender (like the Pats, Chiefs, GB, etc) and happened to have an incredibly high pick. I have to be consistent.
Do you really want to compare pass attempts of the '60s, '70s. '80's etc to today's games. I don't even have to look it up and feel pretty damn good that those eras had more rushing attempts than passing attempts for winning teams. That's how teams won back then...
Look up points production, not rushing vs passing attempts..The ground game was certainly vital, but the passing games from the aforementioned were the difference-makers..
If your contention is that you wouldn’t draft a Jim Brown, Barkley and the OTHERS I mentioned in the first round, then we have nothing more to talk about towards this end
If your contention is that you wouldn’t draft a Jim Brown, Barkley and the OTHERS I mentioned in the first round, then we have nothing more to talk about towards this end
I wouldn't. But it's a silly argument because it wouldn't be based on what we know now about those names (their NFL production) but how they produced in college.
I'm only 38, so I haven't experienced the lows and highs of many fans. Maybe I don't have perspective or the team doesn't have the good will banked with me like some.
What I see is a three year run with 33 loses under current management. Going back to George Young, the most loses in three years under any GM.
It's not been kind of bad, it's like a once in 40 year storm bad. It's a credibility damaging run, that followed up a credibility damaging run (Rees + McAdoo).
Personally for me, to get me back in the column where I expect the decisions the Giants make to work, it's going to take more than a 6 win season.
Tell me I'm being illogically to be nervous about:
- Daniel Jones leading the in fumbles in consecutive years, coming off a 14 game 11 TD season
- Saquon Barkley coming off a torn ACL, and second consecutive season where injury has dramatically limited his productivity
- An offensive line as of today relying on an UDFA, 5th rounder, 3rd rounder, and a potentially the massively disappointing Nate Solder
If management was getting more things right than wrong, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. But it's not been that way.
It's like fans using nice sounding threats like "I'm going to hold them accountable". Cool. How?
There are a few posters who have spent almost every day for the past three years complaining about the GM. And he still sits there. He still makes moves. At some point, you'd think people would glance at a mirror and see that all the gnashing of teeth has given are headaches and ground enamel.
When things are out of your control, a benefit of doubt or accountability really doesn't mean anything at all.
It's like fans using nice sounding threats like "I'm going to hold them accountable". Cool. How?
There are a few posters who have spent almost every day for the past three years complaining about the GM. And he still sits there. He still makes moves. At some point, you'd think people would glance at a mirror and see that all the gnashing of teeth has given are headaches and ground enamel.
When things are out of your control, a benefit of doubt or accountability really doesn't mean anything at all.
I don't think there is anything wrong with rooting for a team and at the same time being critical if I think they are pursuing illogical or non-rational moves or strategy.
I'm only 38, so I haven't experienced the lows and highs of many fans. Maybe I don't have perspective or the team doesn't have the good will banked with me like some.
What I see is a three year run with 33 loses under current management. Going back to George Young, the most loses in three years under any GM.
It's not been kind of bad, it's like a once in 40 year storm bad. It's a credibility damaging run, that followed up a credibility damaging run (Rees + McAdoo).
Personally for me, to get me back in the column where I expect the decisions the Giants make to work, it's going to take more than a 6 win season.
Tell me I'm being illogically to be nervous about:
- Daniel Jones leading the in fumbles in consecutive years, coming off a 14 game 11 TD season
- Saquon Barkley coming off a torn ACL, and second consecutive season where injury has dramatically limited his productivity
- An offensive line as of today relying on an UDFA, 5th rounder, 3rd rounder, and a potentially the massively disappointing Nate Solder
If management was getting more things right than wrong, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. But it's not been that way.
It’s not really that. Your narrative about fumbles really applied to his first year. He was much improved in year two. Were his INTs because of Engram’s tips, bad throws? Probably both, but INTs are happening at a pretty good rate around the league. But yeah, he needs to continue to clean things up and not become a headcase over his TOs..That part is on him.
I also felt he was beginning to get comfortable in Garrett’s O (as JG was reacclimating to PC himself) and he was moving the chains quite well until he got hurt. After that, they could tee off on him given that he really couldn’t move all that well..He did surprise me in how well he played in the season finale, given that his mobility was still rather shot..If he was healthy? No wuestion in my mind we win the division with a .500 record. Just an opinion and unprovable. We shall see moving forward.
It’s not that we’re “homers” as posters like to label us; more like, “okay, year 2 under Judge and Garrett, DJ should be more comfortable with his new weapons, a healthy Barkley (fingers crossed),etc.”
Again, I didn’t want DG here and he’s made some headscratching moves at times, but my fanhood is focused on Judge’s team, how well he apparently works with DG and how hard his players have played for him and that DJ deserves some big time slack after only 25 games.
We’re not better fans by any stretch. We’re perhaps more patient, especially since there’s a new sheriff in town and the players seem to have bought into him. Also TBD..
So I will let the naysayers dwell on the 15-33 record. I will dwell on 6-10, not because it’s a good record, that’s not the case. It’s the 0-5 and 1-7 ending with 5-3, that I’m hanging my positive energy on. Years ‘18 and ‘19 mean nothing to me as it’s not germain to our current team, imv. DG I felt had a good draft during JG’s first year (but time will tell) and on paper I like what he’s done in FA..
I am responding in length to you because I KNOW you will hear what I’m saying, whether you agree with me or not..
It's like fans using nice sounding threats like "I'm going to hold them accountable". Cool. How?
There are a few posters who have spent almost every day for the past three years complaining about the GM. And he still sits there. He still makes moves. At some point, you'd think people would glance at a mirror and see that all the gnashing of teeth has given are headaches and ground enamel.
When things are out of your control, a benefit of doubt or accountability really doesn't mean anything at all.
I vote with my dollars — since 2017 onward I’ve attended fewer than half the games I previously did. I’ve purposefully not spent a dollar on anything team related. The team not being very good and not having the brand popularity in the metro area, was also a big factor in me voting at my former company to not renew agreements or pursue new advertising at the stadium. Those dollars went to some kick ass ads at Yankee Stadium.
There are also posters who have spent the last 3 years defending the moves management has made. And yet the team keeps losing.
If real world world outcomes are the driving factor of what we are and are not allowed to bitch about as fans, then Eric should just close up and retire the site, no?
2. Many great or very good OL’s are built with low picks The Giants very good OL of 2004-10 had a 5th, UDFA, UDFA, 2nd,, 3rd from left to right. Pats are the same and they often let many go. It is the position where you don’t need great measureables. You also can help your cap in this position group.
3. Giants have had a bad run. Dave has missed. People denying this are off base imo. It is really hard to win in the NFL though . Dave is correct with his mantra. Execution has been slow. They are closer than many think imo but Jones will have to take a major step. Overall the Giants have been very good at going the distance the last 35 years in the most competitive division. 10 Super Bowls. It could be a lot worse.
Did you research any of this? Interceptions are down leaguewide each of the last two years. Jones led the league in fumbles (11) in 2020, as he did in 2019 (18)...consider that he didn't play a full 16 games either year. Saying he improved with the fumbles is disingenuous; he was still worst in the league.
The other day someone suggested Jones didn't fumble much in the second half of the season - not true. Where are the self-appointed defenders of the faith to point out these errors? People get pissed at me for being critical; but you won't find me just making stats up.
Also, this may be the third year in a row we've had to hear about second half momentum carrying over into the following season. It never materializes. Besides, I don't know how finishing the season 1-3 in four must-win games is a feather in the cap, but what do I know?
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I once wondered what '64-'81 would have like on BBI. That would have been a dark, dark place. And I guarantee that plane flies over Giants Stadium a helluva lot earlier than after the fiasco vs. the Eagles in '78.
Dark because there was no internet?
Bill L, if there was an Internet back then...Haha.
I'm only 38, so I haven't experienced the lows and highs of many fans. Maybe I don't have perspective or the team doesn't have the good will banked with me like some.
What I see is a three year run with 33 loses under current management. Going back to George Young, the most loses in three years under any GM.
It's not been kind of bad, it's like a once in 40 year storm bad. It's a credibility damaging run, that followed up a credibility damaging run (Rees + McAdoo).
Personally for me, to get me back in the column where I expect the decisions the Giants make to work, it's going to take more than a 6 win season.
Tell me I'm being illogically to be nervous about:
- Daniel Jones leading the in fumbles in consecutive years, coming off a 14 game 11 TD season
- Saquon Barkley coming off a torn ACL, and second consecutive season where injury has dramatically limited his productivity
- An offensive line as of today relying on an UDFA, 5th rounder, 3rd rounder, and a potentially the massively disappointing Nate Solder
If management was getting more things right than wrong, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. But it's not been that way.
Minus the first sentence, this post is great, and I agree with pretty much all of it.
I'm 45, I feel you. I guess let me say, that between 38 and 45, A LOT can change. Football/life. Different perspectives. What's interesting is that BBI is a melting pot of all of these perspectives.
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In comment 15211567 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 15211561 Victor in CT said:
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In comment 15211552 djm said:
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nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
Uh, for the memory challenged (may I suggest Prevagen as a solution), those eras for those RBs were COMPLETELY different to today's brand of football. Those eras were focused on the running game as the primary means to move the football.
JFC...send me your address and I will send you Football for Dummies, BBI edition.
Firstly, you have my address. Secondly, I’ve seen the book and the beautiful dedication in your honor..
This was an old school BBI response right here. Strong.
I think JJ is the real deal.
It's like fans using nice sounding threats like "I'm going to hold them accountable". Cool. How?
There are a few posters who have spent almost every day for the past three years complaining about the GM. And he still sits there. He still makes moves. At some point, you'd think people would glance at a mirror and see that all the gnashing of teeth has given are headaches and ground enamel.
When things are out of your control, a benefit of doubt or accountability really doesn't mean anything at all.
And you likely have spent almost every day for the past three years complaining about posters who complain about the GM.
At some point you’d think you would glance at a mirror too...
Says the man who is critical of everyone on this site he disagrees with, with no ability to change their thinking.
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But I'm hopeful they got it right. 3rd times a charm :)
I think JJ is the real deal.
And where I agree with Terps is that he IS the most important piece.
Where I deviate from some here is I am skeptical as to how much say he has over Jones and Barkley being centerpiece players. He is not connected to their acquisition, and in one year together Jones was bad and Barkley was hurt. If Judge wants to explore moving on from either, I wonder if they would. No way of knowing for sure, I suppose.
Where I deviate from some here is I am skeptical as to how much say he has over Jones and Barkley being centerpiece players. He is not connected to their acquisition, and in one year together Jones was bad and Barkley was hurt. If Judge wants to explore moving on from either, I wonder if they would. No way of knowing for sure, I suppose.
And as the wins start coming, so will that power. I already think the ownership, the fan base, and front office might be buying in. And let's not forget how extraordinary the circumstances are for a 39 year old to to have his first NFL head coaching gig in the middle of a pandemic.
Where I deviate from some here is I am skeptical as to how much say he has over Jones and Barkley being centerpiece players. He is not connected to their acquisition, and in one year together Jones was bad and Barkley was hurt. If Judge wants to explore moving on from either, I wonder if they would. No way of knowing for sure, I suppose.
Where I deviate from some here is I am skeptical as to how much say he has over Jones and Barkley being centerpiece players. He is not connected to their acquisition, and in one year together Jones was bad and Barkley was hurt. If Judge wants to explore moving on from either, I wonder if they would. No way of knowing for sure, I suppose.
Total guess, but I think JJ has more sway than Gettleman going forward. I think Mara wants him around for awhile & Mara is definitely sensitive to fan opinion & most fans have confidence in Judge than Gettleman, who is up there in age too.
I won’t be surprised if Jones improves a lot next year, and I won’t be surprised if Barkley rounds into shape as the season progresses. But my eyes are wide open about the big hill each has to climb.
I have 100% faith in Judge. Everything about the guy says smart, prepared, thoughtful — and he has great pedigree.
Where I’m skeptical is if the Giants are faced with an unpopular and difficult decision with Jones or Barkley. Will affection, hope, and loyalty be a big factor in their next contract, if health and performance fall short?
I won’t be surprised if Jones improves a lot next year, and I won’t be surprised if Barkley rounds into shape as the season progresses. But my eyes are wide open about the big hill each has to climb.
I have 100% faith in Judge. Everything about the guy says smart, prepared, thoughtful — and he has great pedigree.
Where I’m skeptical is if the Giants are faced with an unpopular and difficult decision with Jones or Barkley. Will affection, hope, and loyalty be a big factor in their next contract, if health and performance fall short?
You may have provided your own answer. If he has great Pedigree (BB and Saban), then he will value “fact” over loyalty and cut ties when necessary, imv
Love the pick or hate it, picking him is not what dumb GMs do no matter how much you can scream otherwise. The guy's a HOF talent. Enough already.
Wasn't Tomlinson a 2nd round pick? And Fournette and Gurley are already on their second teams? Didn't Faulk really cement his legacy with his second team? So Zeke is the sample group of ONE that aligns with your position?
I suspect you may have contradicted the point you were trying to make.
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I’m more bullish on the ceiling for Jones and Barkley than some. But I’m very afraid of the floor.
I won’t be surprised if Jones improves a lot next year, and I won’t be surprised if Barkley rounds into shape as the season progresses. But my eyes are wide open about the big hill each has to climb.
I have 100% faith in Judge. Everything about the guy says smart, prepared, thoughtful — and he has great pedigree.
Where I’m skeptical is if the Giants are faced with an unpopular and difficult decision with Jones or Barkley. Will affection, hope, and loyalty be a big factor in their next contract, if health and performance fall short?
You may have provided your own answer. If he has great Pedigree (BB and Saban), then he will value “fact” over loyalty and cut ties when necessary, imv
Unless Tomlinson is the case study to inform that shift, we haven't seen it yet.
McAdoo wound up a bumbling fool, but he was right to at least ask to see if the offense would be better/worse/same with another QB. His failure was choosing Geno to be that QB - that he chose the established-but-never-gonna-be-the-future QB as his horse instead of Webb, who many had hopes for, made it clearly a referendum on Eli. And I do think that if we're being fair and leaving sentiment at the door, Eli was up for a referendum at that point, but it was a poor political decision by McAdoo. And these things tend to be political decisions every bit as much as they are football decisions.
So what happens? There is a fan revolt, at least on WFAN, and the team is given back to Eli with McAdoo (and Reese) sent packing. No one messes with the GOAT in East Rutherford, that much is clear.
But everything that followed, with McAdoo and Reese already fired, reeked of loyalty to #10. And I'm not trying to make the case here that such loyalty was unwarranted, but just want to point out that Mara had a reflex reaction to fan outrage that caused him to change course. He had admitted that he approved McAdoo's proposal, but then fired him and Reese a week later when nothing about that dreadful season had changed other than the fan reaction to Eli's benching.
It's a fair question, IMO, to wonder if Mara is capable of ignoring fan sentiment when it comes time to making cold football decisions. Tomlinson may have worn the C patch, but he was never a fan favorite that sold tickets and jerseys and the like. That they let him walk is interesting and perhaps insightful, but I don't think it gives us any sense of how they'll treat Barkley and Jones. The star and the QB exist on a different plane than the blue collar DT, even if the latter was also a team captain. It's just not the same.
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that's just it. If a GM has such a conviction on a player that he's all but certain that player is a star in the making, he should most definitely take him barring only a few exceptions. You want to disagree with that line of thinking that's fine, but its a hell of a lot easier to do so sitting on your couch. And all these "insiders" or former GMs saying they would never take a RB at 2-3-4 can go fuck off for all I care. Fournette went 4th. Zeke went 4th. Gurley went pretty high. Those guys weren't picked by bad GMs. MArshall Faulk was a great pick. So was LDT. And if Barkley wasn't hurt last year he'd be the best offensive player on the 2020 NFC east champions.
Love the pick or hate it, picking him is not what dumb GMs do no matter how much you can scream otherwise. The guy's a HOF talent. Enough already.
Wasn't Tomlinson a 2nd round pick? And Fournette and Gurley are already on their second teams? Didn't Faulk really cement his legacy with his second team? So Zeke is the sample group of ONE that aligns with your position?
I suspect you may have contradicted the point you were trying to make.
Just want to correct myself - Tomlinson was most definitely NOT a 2nd round pick. I was confused because Brees was their 2nd round pick in that same draft, and I was thinking about them having had a crazy good draft that year. Talk about a fucking haul - Tomlinson and Brees in the 1st and 2nd rounds and not a single ring to show for it.
Are you a Bobby Frost fan?
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I think that there's some Robert Frost poem about that.
Are you a Bobby Frost fan?
I'm more 18-19th century English guy but if I saw Bobby on the road I wold pick him up (unless I was on the wrong road).
What about the part where he gets flustered in the pocket.
Or where he bones throws to open receivers.
Or where he makes stupid decisions.
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Jones throws a GREAT deep ball. A) he fumbles B) OL can’t block C) WR can never get open. If this changes we win a lot of games. Period.
What about the part where he gets flustered in the pocket.
Or where he bones throws to open receivers.
Or where he makes stupid decisions.
See above.
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Jones throws a GREAT deep ball. A) he fumbles B) OL can’t block C) WR can never get open. If this changes we win a lot of games. Period.
What about the part where he gets flustered in the pocket.
Or where he bones throws to open receivers.
Or where he makes stupid decisions.
You forgot not seeing wide open receivers
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Jones throws a GREAT deep ball. A) he fumbles B) OL can’t block C) WR can never get open. If this changes we win a lot of games. Period.
What about the part where he gets flustered in the pocket.
Or where he bones throws to open receivers.
Or where he makes stupid decisions.
Flustered in the pocket? This is where I can't take you seriously. The guy is brave to a FAULT in the pocket, that's where a lot of his first year fumbles came from.
We get it Producer, you hate Daniel Jones. Are you going to keep posting it over, and over, and over, and ov... on every single thread, beating every single thread about it into the ground? I mean HOLY SHIT already with you guys and your irrational Daniel Jones hatred.
It's an opinion. Doesn't mean it's fact or that we won't see a RB drafted very high again. We will.
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Jones throws a GREAT deep ball. A) he fumbles B) OL can’t block C) WR can never get open. If this changes we win a lot of games. Period.
What about the part where he gets flustered in the pocket.
Or where he bones throws to open receivers.
Or where he makes stupid decisions.
If you accept the fact that we aren't going to draft your mancrush Trey Lance, will you revisit Jones with fresh eyes this season?
It's entirely possible that the blame on the supporting cast is Jones's fault, AND vice versa. We'll find out this year with a better offensive group.
Getting defensive about Jones's shortcomings, which are genuine thus far, doesn't advance the conversation at all. Jones needs to play better than he has. And he needs to have better players around him. It's not either/or, IMO.
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In comment 15212486 Carl in CT said:
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Jones throws a GREAT deep ball. A) he fumbles B) OL can’t block C) WR can never get open. If this changes we win a lot of games. Period.
What about the part where he gets flustered in the pocket.
Or where he bones throws to open receivers.
Or where he makes stupid decisions.
If you accept the fact that we aren't going to draft your mancrush Trey Lance, will you revisit Jones with fresh eyes this season?
Trey Lance sounds like a porn star.
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In comment 15212502 Producer said:
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In comment 15212486 Carl in CT said:
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Jones throws a GREAT deep ball. A) he fumbles B) OL can’t block C) WR can never get open. If this changes we win a lot of games. Period.
What about the part where he gets flustered in the pocket.
Or where he bones throws to open receivers.
Or where he makes stupid decisions.
If you accept the fact that we aren't going to draft your mancrush Trey Lance, will you revisit Jones with fresh eyes this season?
Trey Lance sounds like a porn star.
He probably is, for Producer.
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In comment 15212486 Carl in CT said:
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Jones throws a GREAT deep ball. A) he fumbles B) OL can’t block C) WR can never get open. If this changes we win a lot of games. Period.
What about the part where he gets flustered in the pocket.
Or where he bones throws to open receivers.
Or where he makes stupid decisions.
If you accept the fact that we aren't going to draft your mancrush Trey Lance, will you revisit Jones with fresh eyes this season?
As I have said before, I hope Jones becomes Tom Brady, because I am a Giants fan and I want us to win five Super Bowls in the next ten years. And I have never said that Jones has no chance to become good, or great. I just think it is foolish for this team, any team, to not consider all options given what we have seen from Jones so far. Keep our options open. I think that is smart management.
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In comment 15212502 Producer said:
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In comment 15212486 Carl in CT said:
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Jones throws a GREAT deep ball. A) he fumbles B) OL can’t block C) WR can never get open. If this changes we win a lot of games. Period.
What about the part where he gets flustered in the pocket.
Or where he bones throws to open receivers.
Or where he makes stupid decisions.
If you accept the fact that we aren't going to draft your mancrush Trey Lance, will you revisit Jones with fresh eyes this season?
As I have said before, I hope Jones becomes Tom Brady, because I am a Giants fan and I want us to win five Super Bowls in the next ten years. And I have never said that Jones has no chance to become good, or great. I just think it is foolish for this team, any team, to not consider all options given what we have seen from Jones so far. Keep our options open. I think that is smart management.
But they're going to give Jones this year, that much is clear. You should probably reframe your view with that in mind.
Honestly, after Wentz (NDSU) and Trubisky (one legitimate season of tape), I'm not sure why anyone would be so bullish on Lance. At least not to the point where they approach Duke Johnson territory, which is what we're seeing here.
Lance might end up an NFL stud, but the Giants aren't drafting him, for several reasons. It's too bad such a die-hard fan as Producer (🙄) can't see that clearly enough to stop pressing for it.
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
I won’t be surprised if Jones improves a lot next year, and I won’t be surprised if Barkley rounds into shape as the season progresses. But my eyes are wide open about the big hill each has to climb.
I have 100% faith in Judge. Everything about the guy says smart, prepared, thoughtful — and he has great pedigree.
Where I’m skeptical is if the Giants are faced with an unpopular and difficult decision with Jones or Barkley. Will affection, hope, and loyalty be a big factor in their next contract, if health and performance fall short?
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
He did have that one big year at Duke where they wont a lot of games (for duke standards) and he possesses all the traits you look for in a QB.
His stats weren't great, but that one year they were very good and he basically carried a bad duke roster week in week out.
Teams look at how a QB's talents translate to the pro game as much as they look at stats.
Or, the Giants are just fucking stupid and drafted Jones because he talks like Eli. Better?
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I’m more bullish on the ceiling for Jones and Barkley than some. But I’m very afraid of the floor.
I won’t be surprised if Jones improves a lot next year, and I won’t be surprised if Barkley rounds into shape as the season progresses. But my eyes are wide open about the big hill each has to climb.
I have 100% faith in Judge. Everything about the guy says smart, prepared, thoughtful — and he has great pedigree.
Where I’m skeptical is if the Giants are faced with an unpopular and difficult decision with Jones or Barkley. Will affection, hope, and loyalty be a big factor in their next contract, if health and performance fall short?
I think DG is gone if Barkley and Jones don't come through this year. Jones needs the threat of a healthy Barkley. If DG goes because of Jones, the new GM will get a new QB and Barkley wont be extended. I think it will take care of itself.
However it plays out, it's very likely that DG's legacy (and job security) are tied to Jones and Barkley, in that order.
I don't particularly like DG as a GM, I think his views on strategy and roster building are outdated, to the extent that they ever had a strategic footprint at all. But I do want the Giants to win again, ASAP. So I'm perfectly fine with reconsidering my concerns about DG if he proves me wrong and the Giants deliver a winning team in 2021.
If not, he's had enough time now. It does need to be winning record or bust for DG this year, IMO. GMs shouldn't get a 5th year if they put up 42+ losses in their first four. We wouldn't pick up a QB's 5th year option in that circumstance, nor should we bring back the GM - building a winner is his job, and he's now fully clear of Reese's shadow and whatever wreck he inherited.
But if he delivers a winning season (and likely the division), I have no problem reconsidering my POV on DG.
At this point, why even bother anymore. He's here. He's been given the keys to make this work in 2021. Giants have a lot of people who have been in the NFL long enough to know a player who is or isn't worth investing in. They like Jones.
If you're implying that no QB or player ever put up better numbers in the PRO game than they did in College, you'll be met with proof that this has in fact happened on numerous occasions.
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
I would say the most reliable stat from college seems to be the accuracy piece.
But even that needs context. The latest example being Josh Allen, playing for Wyoming with a mediocre OL and mediocre skills players. And just trying to do too much.
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I've been wondering for a while how important college stats are when assessing quarterback prospects. I've been looking at college stats for first round quarterbacks the last ten years. I haven't looked at every single guy, but so far Jones's are the worst of all of them. And not by a little bit.
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
I would say the most reliable stat from college seems to be the accuracy piece.
But even that needs context. The latest example being Josh Allen, playing for Wyoming with a mediocre OL and mediocre skills players. And just trying to do too much.
Are we allowed to say the same for Jones?
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I've been wondering for a while how important college stats are when assessing quarterback prospects. I've been looking at college stats for first round quarterbacks the last ten years. I haven't looked at every single guy, but so far Jones's are the worst of all of them. And not by a little bit.
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
He did have that one big year at Duke where they wont a lot of games (for duke standards) and he possesses all the traits you look for in a QB.
His stats weren't great, but that one year they were very good and he basically carried a bad duke roster week in week out.
Teams look at how a QB's talents translate to the pro game as much as they look at stats.
Or, the Giants are just fucking stupid and drafted Jones because he talks like Eli. Better?
djm..
this is why i hammer the Jones point.
You say, He has *all* the traits you look for in a quarterback. He does not. And that was clear when he came out as well. Cosell was very lukewarm to Jones when he came out. He is tall and athletic, yes. Those are good traits. He does not have a power arm. Not close. He does not process the field quickly. It is not clear he is able to throw with anticipation. He does not move well in the pocket. He is not especially accurate. These are things he did not do when he came out. And he has yet to master them.
So when folks say he has *all the traits* I wonder where they get that from.
he does not have *all the traits*.
yea a guy with a true power arm and high level running ability, who wants that?
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Trey Lance??? Not me.
yea a guy with a true power arm and high level running ability, who wants that?
Duke Johnson.
At this point, why even bother anymore. He's here. He's been given the keys to make this work in 2021. Giants have a lot of people who have been in the NFL long enough to know a player who is or isn't worth investing in. They like Jones.
If you're implying that no QB or player ever put up better numbers in the PRO game than they did in College, you'll be met with proof that this has in fact happened on numerous occasions.
You think 1979 and 2019 are comparable?
You're smarter than that. Don't do that.
At this point, why even bother anymore. He's here. He's been given the keys to make this work in 2021. Giants have a lot of people who have been in the NFL long enough to know a player who is or isn't worth investing in. They like Jones.
If you're implying that no QB or player ever put up better numbers in the PRO game than they did in College, you'll be met with proof that this has in fact happened on numerous occasions.
You think 1979 and 2019 are comparable?
You're smarter than that. Don't do that.
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I've been wondering for a while how important college stats are when assessing quarterback prospects. I've been looking at college stats for first round quarterbacks the last ten years. I haven't looked at every single guy, but so far Jones's are the worst of all of them. And not by a little bit.
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
I would say the most reliable stat from college seems to be the accuracy piece.
But even that needs context. The latest example being Josh Allen, playing for Wyoming with a mediocre OL and mediocre skills players. And just trying to do too much.
I’ve said this before. More than a few times. You either never absorbed it, cared to absorb it or skipped over it, so here goes for the final time:
Pat Kirwan, who knows more about what to look for in a player coming into the draft than you and Terps combined x 5 (and I’m being generous) said this about Jones:
He saw Jones play a lot when at Duke, both live and on tape. He said, in all his years of scouting, he had NEVER seen a worse set of receivers during every year that DJ played there, than what/who he had to throw to. Terrible route running, but most importantly drop, after drop after drop from perfectly thrown or nearly perfectly thrown balls. He said it was uncanny..
I haven’t heard his comments relative to what offensive tools DJ will finally get to work with and with Barkley hopefully coming back 100%..I can only imagine PK is delighted. Perhaps a poster who might have heard his latest comments will weigh in..
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In comment 15212692 Go Terps said:
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I've been wondering for a while how important college stats are when assessing quarterback prospects. I've been looking at college stats for first round quarterbacks the last ten years. I haven't looked at every single guy, but so far Jones's are the worst of all of them. And not by a little bit.
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
I would say the most reliable stat from college seems to be the accuracy piece.
But even that needs context. The latest example being Josh Allen, playing for Wyoming with a mediocre OL and mediocre skills players. And just trying to do too much.
I’ve said this before. More than a few times. You either never absorbed it, cared to absorb it or skipped over it, so here goes for the final time:
Pat Kirwan, who knows more about what to look for in a player coming into the draft than you and Terps combined x 5 (and I’m being generous) said this about Jones:
He saw Jones play a lot when at Duke, both live and on tape. He said, in all his years of scouting, he had NEVER seen a worse set of receivers during every year that DJ played there, than what/who he had to throw to. Terrible route running, but most importantly drop, after drop after drop from perfectly thrown or nearly perfectly thrown balls. He said it was uncanny..
I haven’t heard his comments relative to what offensive tools DJ will finally get to work with and with Barkley hopefully coming back 100%..I can only imagine PK is delighted. Perhaps a poster who might have heard his latest comments will weigh in..
Here's how I read those comments, Fiddy: Jones should not have his college stats/record held against him because of his mediocre supporting cast.
But that doesn't mean he should be credited with each of those drops as catches - NFL QBs have receivers who drop the ball, too. Jones deserves a place in the NFL and shouldn't have his college team's weaknesses held against him. Great! Mission accomplished - he wound up a top-10 pick in spite of that ragtag bunch surrounding him at Duke.
Those excuses/explanations don't matter any more, IMO. What made Eli so attractive to EA was that he elevated a middling cast around him at Ole Miss. Jones comes from a similar collegiate pedigree, but instead of celebrating him elevating his teammates, we're excusing him for his teammates? Isn't that precisely the issue here?
But that still doesn't mean Jones was worthy of a 6th pick or that he was a good decision maker. Just means he had unreliable receivers and that may have impacted his completion %.
But that still doesn't mean Jones was worthy of a 6th pick or that he was a good decision maker. Just means he had unreliable receivers and that may have impacted his completion %.
yes it is quite a leap to go from, he had a abysmal supporting cast in college to #6 pick in the draft.
Either way, the next really good statistical season he puts together will be his first since high school (though that may not be true - I don't have his high school stats and he was probably throwing to the worst receivers in the world there too).
I defer to Sy's scouting report, which reflects what we've seen on the field: "There isn't a quick mind there."
Either way, the next really good statistical season he puts together will be his first since high school (though that may not be true - I don't have his high school stats and he was probably throwing to the worst receivers in the world there too).
That's pretty funny. Jones may need a new moniker instead of Danny Dimes - "If Only" Jones.
If only he had better blocking...
If only he had better receivers...
If only he had better coaching...
If only there wasn't wind...
Etc
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In comment 15212714 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15212692 Go Terps said:
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I've been wondering for a while how important college stats are when assessing quarterback prospects. I've been looking at college stats for first round quarterbacks the last ten years. I haven't looked at every single guy, but so far Jones's are the worst of all of them. And not by a little bit.
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
I would say the most reliable stat from college seems to be the accuracy piece.
But even that needs context. The latest example being Josh Allen, playing for Wyoming with a mediocre OL and mediocre skills players. And just trying to do too much.
I’ve said this before. More than a few times. You either never absorbed it, cared to absorb it or skipped over it, so here goes for the final time:
Pat Kirwan, who knows more about what to look for in a player coming into the draft than you and Terps combined x 5 (and I’m being generous) said this about Jones:
He saw Jones play a lot when at Duke, both live and on tape. He said, in all his years of scouting, he had NEVER seen a worse set of receivers during every year that DJ played there, than what/who he had to throw to. Terrible route running, but most importantly drop, after drop after drop from perfectly thrown or nearly perfectly thrown balls. He said it was uncanny..
I haven’t heard his comments relative to what offensive tools DJ will finally get to work with and with Barkley hopefully coming back 100%..I can only imagine PK is delighted. Perhaps a poster who might have heard his latest comments will weigh in..
Here's how I read those comments, Fiddy: Jones should not have his college stats/record held against him because of his mediocre supporting cast.
But that doesn't mean he should be credited with each of those drops as catches - NFL QBs have receivers who drop the ball, too. Jones deserves a place in the NFL and shouldn't have his college team's weaknesses held against him. Great! Mission accomplished - he wound up a top-10 pick in spite of that ragtag bunch surrounding him at Duke.
Those excuses/explanations don't matter any more, IMO. What made Eli so attractive to EA was that he elevated a middling cast around him at Ole Miss. Jones comes from a similar collegiate pedigree, but instead of celebrating him elevating his teammates, we're excusing him for his teammates? Isn't that precisely the issue here?
The issue is/was people citing his college stats/accuracy “issues” coming out. And yes, they were cited MANY TIMES pre and post draft. PK explained why..That’s all I was posting, nothing more.
I will not address yet again, what happened with DJ last year because I’ve stated it more times than my sanity allows..
I was again, just addressing PK’s observations, nothing more..
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
LOL. When I think you can't get any lower, you pull a fucking rabbit out of the hat.
So why did the Giants draft him, Einstein? If we are going down the Eli 2.0 road again - let's be clear that you've led the bandwagon that the two are nothing alike. And Eli had very good college stats.
To me it is obvious why they picked Jones. It was a position of need and they felt he had the size, speed and arm strength to succeed in the NFL.
If you're going on the half-assed idea he's the reincarnation of Eli, then you're already too far gone - even moreso than all of your posts confirm
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I've been wondering for a while how important college stats are when assessing quarterback prospects. I've been looking at college stats for first round quarterbacks the last ten years. I haven't looked at every single guy, but so far Jones's are the worst of all of them. And not by a little bit.
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
LOL. When I think you can't get any lower, you pull a fucking rabbit out of the hat.
So why did the Giants draft him, Einstein? If we are going down the Eli 2.0 road again - let's be clear that you've led the bandwagon that the two are nothing alike. And Eli had very good college stats.
To me it is obvious why they picked Jones. It was a position of need and they felt he had the size, speed and arm strength to succeed in the NFL.
If you're going on the half-assed idea he's the reincarnation of Eli, then you're already too far gone - even moreso than all of your posts confirm
It’s a shame. Though I have always like Terps the person and always will, he has gone from a must read with my coffee in the morning, to a must skip/avoid at all costs, when possible..And it’s not because I “can’t handle (his) the truth,” because I can, it’s the ad infinitum points which never change on every thread with zero evidence of give. With never a “you could be right.” Always with definitive certainty. That’s it. I know better. It’s tiresome and hard to avoid, because on most threads, even when I scroll past his posts, there’s always a little bit that always catches my eye..
Too bad, because he’s good people.
Btw? I’m a homer? All I’ve ever said, is that:
1-I believe DJ has all the essential tools to become a very good QB, but agree that things need to be improved on and eliminated
2-25 games is too small a sample size to DEFINITIVELY state how good or bad he is at present
3-That this year will tell a lot, now that he has tools to work with
4-Judge knows him best and whatever he believes, good or bad, I will tend to buy into..
Those are my major homer points
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Either way, the next really good statistical season he puts together will be his first since high school (though that may not be true - I don't have his high school stats and he was probably throwing to the worst receivers in the world there too).
That's pretty funny. Jones may need a new moniker instead of Danny Dimes - "If Only" Jones.
If only he had better blocking...
If only he had better receivers...
If only he had better coaching...
If only there wasn't wind...
Etc
Don’t forget the rain. Dep used to suggest it rained a lot when Eli had to play at Met Life.
Also guys running the wrong routes.
This is basically the Eli list from 2016 on...
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In comment 15212735 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 15212714 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15212692 Go Terps said:
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I've been wondering for a while how important college stats are when assessing quarterback prospects. I've been looking at college stats for first round quarterbacks the last ten years. I haven't looked at every single guy, but so far Jones's are the worst of all of them. And not by a little bit.
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
I would say the most reliable stat from college seems to be the accuracy piece.
But even that needs context. The latest example being Josh Allen, playing for Wyoming with a mediocre OL and mediocre skills players. And just trying to do too much.
I’ve said this before. More than a few times. You either never absorbed it, cared to absorb it or skipped over it, so here goes for the final time:
Pat Kirwan, who knows more about what to look for in a player coming into the draft than you and Terps combined x 5 (and I’m being generous) said this about Jones:
He saw Jones play a lot when at Duke, both live and on tape. He said, in all his years of scouting, he had NEVER seen a worse set of receivers during every year that DJ played there, than what/who he had to throw to. Terrible route running, but most importantly drop, after drop after drop from perfectly thrown or nearly perfectly thrown balls. He said it was uncanny..
I haven’t heard his comments relative to what offensive tools DJ will finally get to work with and with Barkley hopefully coming back 100%..I can only imagine PK is delighted. Perhaps a poster who might have heard his latest comments will weigh in..
Here's how I read those comments, Fiddy: Jones should not have his college stats/record held against him because of his mediocre supporting cast.
But that doesn't mean he should be credited with each of those drops as catches - NFL QBs have receivers who drop the ball, too. Jones deserves a place in the NFL and shouldn't have his college team's weaknesses held against him. Great! Mission accomplished - he wound up a top-10 pick in spite of that ragtag bunch surrounding him at Duke.
Those excuses/explanations don't matter any more, IMO. What made Eli so attractive to EA was that he elevated a middling cast around him at Ole Miss. Jones comes from a similar collegiate pedigree, but instead of celebrating him elevating his teammates, we're excusing him for his teammates? Isn't that precisely the issue here?
The issue is/was people citing his college stats/accuracy “issues” coming out. And yes, they were cited MANY TIMES pre and post draft. PK explained why..That’s all I was posting, nothing more.
I will not address yet again, what happened with DJ last year because I’ve stated it more times than my sanity allows..
I was again, just addressing PK’s observations, nothing more..
Fair enough. And I always think that you're a balanced observer, capable in equal parts of criticism and praise.
I was just pointing out that some of the same things that have become excuses for DJ were, at one time, points of praise for Eli.
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In comment 15212741 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15212735 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 15212714 bw in dc said:
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In comment 15212692 Go Terps said:
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I've been wondering for a while how important college stats are when assessing quarterback prospects. I've been looking at college stats for first round quarterbacks the last ten years. I haven't looked at every single guy, but so far Jones's are the worst of all of them. And not by a little bit.
It's obvious why the Giants drafted him.
I would say the most reliable stat from college seems to be the accuracy piece.
But even that needs context. The latest example being Josh Allen, playing for Wyoming with a mediocre OL and mediocre skills players. And just trying to do too much.
I’ve said this before. More than a few times. You either never absorbed it, cared to absorb it or skipped over it, so here goes for the final time:
Pat Kirwan, who knows more about what to look for in a player coming into the draft than you and Terps combined x 5 (and I’m being generous) said this about Jones:
He saw Jones play a lot when at Duke, both live and on tape. He said, in all his years of scouting, he had NEVER seen a worse set of receivers during every year that DJ played there, than what/who he had to throw to. Terrible route running, but most importantly drop, after drop after drop from perfectly thrown or nearly perfectly thrown balls. He said it was uncanny..
I haven’t heard his comments relative to what offensive tools DJ will finally get to work with and with Barkley hopefully coming back 100%..I can only imagine PK is delighted. Perhaps a poster who might have heard his latest comments will weigh in..
Here's how I read those comments, Fiddy: Jones should not have his college stats/record held against him because of his mediocre supporting cast.
But that doesn't mean he should be credited with each of those drops as catches - NFL QBs have receivers who drop the ball, too. Jones deserves a place in the NFL and shouldn't have his college team's weaknesses held against him. Great! Mission accomplished - he wound up a top-10 pick in spite of that ragtag bunch surrounding him at Duke.
Those excuses/explanations don't matter any more, IMO. What made Eli so attractive to EA was that he elevated a middling cast around him at Ole Miss. Jones comes from a similar collegiate pedigree, but instead of celebrating him elevating his teammates, we're excusing him for his teammates? Isn't that precisely the issue here?
The issue is/was people citing his college stats/accuracy “issues” coming out. And yes, they were cited MANY TIMES pre and post draft. PK explained why..That’s all I was posting, nothing more.
I will not address yet again, what happened with DJ last year because I’ve stated it more times than my sanity allows..
I was again, just addressing PK’s observations, nothing more..
Fair enough. And I always think that you're a balanced observer, capable in equal parts of criticism and praise.
I was just pointing out that some of the same things that have become excuses for DJ were, at one time, points of praise for Eli.
Gotcha
On paper the skill position players and line combination should be enough to buoy Jones to an average season.
If you believe in Gettleman as an architect, Judge as a coach, and Jones as a QB that seems like a pretty fair bar, no?
If health is reasonable, middle of the pack in points scored and passer rating is a fair measure?
That seems unfair.
There are those who claim that DJ is an unforgivable failure.
There are those who claim that DJ's rookie year is enough to declare him the franchise QB going forward.
There are most who feel like DJ is an unfinished product with some high points and some low points, and a lot to prove in 2021.
The first two stances are the two competing edges of the spectrum; the third includes the majority of NYG fans. Trying to position your argument as "we need to see more" vs. "we've seen enough to know he sucks" is unfair, because the former encapsulates two of the three debate positions.
If you feel unsure about DJ but are hopeful you land in the middle. If you feel unsure about DJ but suspect he's a bust, you also fall in the middle. Both sets of fans should theoretically be open to discovery this season.
It's just those on the edges who have made up their mind about DJ that are beyond the power of discussion at this point. And trying to pull a debate trick to reel in the middle when they're not fundamentally reeled in on the issue itself seems disingenuous and a way to bring the middle against one far-end of the spectrum, but the middle is the middle, undecided by definition.
On paper the skill position players and line combination should be enough to buoy Jones to an average season.
If you believe in Gettleman as an architect, Judge as a coach, and Jones as a QB that seems like a pretty fair bar, no?
If health is reasonable, middle of the pack in points scored and passer rating is a fair measure?
That's what I'm looking at and is perfectly reasonable. Right now our skill players stand at average to pretty above average depending on guys with some questionable health marks. An offensive line that will run block above average, but probably below average in pass pro. This offense should be top half of the league if it's reasonably healthy, and if it isn't, you can certainly point fingers at Jones.
There is a group here that believes vehemently that Jones is *the goods* (a phrase I despise) and they cite rumors of his amazing deep ball accuracy, accuracy into tight windows and all the other great tools they think he flashes. And when you challenge these assumptions they engage in personal attacks. To not acknowledge this group is disingenuous.
This is an oversimplification. I won't speak for anyone else; I believe we've reached the point that we shouldn't be in a "let's give Jones another year" mindset. I think his first two years have been poor enough that:
1. We should be open to drafting another QB if the opportunity arises. I believe there were enough red flags in his rookie year to justify drafting another QB in 2020. I fully admit not being a big fan of Herbert coming out of college...that was obviously a misevaluation on my part. But if the Giants had a high grade on Herbert, I believe passing on him solely because we had Jones was a massive error in judgment. Similarly, if they a QB on whom they have a high grade falls to them at #11, Jones's presence shouldn't preclude them from drafting that QB.
2. They should have brought in a better backup to push Jones. They didn't do that...they are "giving" him 2021. But has he earned it through his play?
No one is suggesting outright giving up and cutting him. But there has been enough bad football from him through 2 years that they should already be exploring options. Instead they are now left to keep their fingers crossed that the player we saw in years 1 and 2 (and at Duke) is not the player that shows up in year 3.
Seems a fragile basket in which to place their eggs.
Not only name a situation where a backup pushes for playing time, but where it actually works out.
Should the Cards bring in a backup to push Murray? Should the Browns do it for Mayfield? Should the Rams have done it for Goff? Should the Bengals do it for Burrow or the Chargers for Herbert?
This is why so many of your posts are horseshit. You propose things as if it should be common practice, when in reality, it isn't and people running teams don't look at the nonsense as a viable strategy
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given the circumstances but, especially, the limited body of work. Those people say that he has to show this year because those prior circumstances have been, at least somewhat, ameliorated. Others, based on the same information, have pronounced the final judgment that he sucks and no need to see anymore. Those are the two camps, if we are going to split into camps.
This is an oversimplification. I won't speak for anyone else; I believe we've reached the point that we shouldn't be in a "let's give Jones another year" mindset. I think his first two years have been poor enough that:
1. We should be open to drafting another QB if the opportunity arises. I believe there were enough red flags in his rookie year to justify drafting another QB in 2020. I fully admit not being a big fan of Herbert coming out of college...that was obviously a misevaluation on my part. But if the Giants had a high grade on Herbert, I believe passing on him solely because we had Jones was a massive error in judgment. Similarly, if they a QB on whom they have a high grade falls to them at #11, Jones's presence shouldn't preclude them from drafting that QB.
2. They should have brought in a better backup to push Jones. They didn't do that...they are "giving" him 2021. But has he earned it through his play?
No one is suggesting outright giving up and cutting him. But there has been enough bad football from him through 2 years that they should already be exploring options. Instead they are now left to keep their fingers crossed that the player we saw in years 1 and 2 (and at Duke) is not the player that shows up in year 3.
Seems a fragile basket in which to place their eggs.
Exactly.
I take the view that if you do not presently have a QB that is playing at an elite level, you have a quarterback problem.
And to simply wait for a third year QB to come around is poor management of our most precious resource. Time.
Smart teams do not wait several years for the QB to come around.
1) Distract the coaches with a QB controversy of the kind to get talented coaches and FA to stay away from the chaos
2) Distract the players with a QB controversy of the kind known to tear teams apart
3) Do so after just recruiting players (and needing to recruit more) to a stable situation which they could have confidence in
4) Do so at this time and not later if needed
4) Use 1st round draft capital to do it for chances beyond the first ten slots have an ever increasing risk of not working
5) Use really helpful slots deeper in the draft to siphon away the many needs and talents the team needs despite the success rate for QB's taken past the first 10 slots dropping precipitously.
6) Continue to promote this strategy despite items 1-5 above in a lot of threads day after day and expect to be taken as an insightful, balanced and wise poster.
Which of the two posters ( the one you described or the one I described) is more worthy of being ignored?
I submit the answer is both equally
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given the circumstances but, especially, the limited body of work. Those people say that he has to show this year because those prior circumstances have been, at least somewhat, ameliorated. Others, based on the same information, have pronounced the final judgment that he sucks and no need to see anymore. Those are the two camps, if we are going to split into camps.
That seems unfair.
There are those who claim that DJ is an unforgivable failure.
There are those who claim that DJ's rookie year is enough to declare him the franchise QB going forward.
There are most who feel like DJ is an unfinished product with some high points and some low points, and a lot to prove in 2021.
The first two stances are the two competing edges of the spectrum; the third includes the majority of NYG fans. Trying to position your argument as "we need to see more" vs. "we've seen enough to know he sucks" is unfair, because the former encapsulates two of the three debate positions.
If you feel unsure about DJ but are hopeful you land in the middle. If you feel unsure about DJ but suspect he's a bust, you also fall in the middle. Both sets of fans should theoretically be open to discovery this season.
It's just those on the edges who have made up their mind about DJ that are beyond the power of discussion at this point. And trying to pull a debate trick to reel in the middle when they're not fundamentally reeled in on the issue itself seems disingenuous and a way to bring the middle against one far-end of the spectrum, but the middle is the middle, undecided by definition.
Maybe. But I honestly haven't seen anyone here, even ryankeane, say the Jones is a done deal franchise QB.
Pat Kirwan, who knows more about what to look for in a player coming into the draft than you and Terps combined x 5 (and I’m being generous) said this about Jones:
He saw Jones play a lot when at Duke, both live and on tape. He said, in all his years of scouting, he had NEVER seen a worse set of receivers during every year that DJ played there, than what/who he had to throw to. Terrible route running, but most importantly drop, after drop after drop from perfectly thrown or nearly perfectly thrown balls. He said it was uncanny..
For what it's worth, Pat Kirwan hasn't worked in any capacity for an NFL team since 1997. His resume includes stints with the Cardinals of the late 80s (bad franchise) and the Bucs of the mid-80s (also bad franchise). His tenure with the Jets (1989-1997) was a pitiful chapter in that franchise's history as well.
None of that makes him necessarily wrong of course, but if you're going to appeal to the authority of an opinion, you might want to make sure the person giving that opinion has an established history of being reliable on such matters.
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In comment 15212824 Bill L said:
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given the circumstances but, especially, the limited body of work. Those people say that he has to show this year because those prior circumstances have been, at least somewhat, ameliorated. Others, based on the same information, have pronounced the final judgment that he sucks and no need to see anymore. Those are the two camps, if we are going to split into camps.
This is an oversimplification. I won't speak for anyone else; I believe we've reached the point that we shouldn't be in a "let's give Jones another year" mindset. I think his first two years have been poor enough that:
1. We should be open to drafting another QB if the opportunity arises. I believe there were enough red flags in his rookie year to justify drafting another QB in 2020. I fully admit not being a big fan of Herbert coming out of college...that was obviously a misevaluation on my part. But if the Giants had a high grade on Herbert, I believe passing on him solely because we had Jones was a massive error in judgment. Similarly, if they a QB on whom they have a high grade falls to them at #11, Jones's presence shouldn't preclude them from drafting that QB.
2. They should have brought in a better backup to push Jones. They didn't do that...they are "giving" him 2021. But has he earned it through his play?
No one is suggesting outright giving up and cutting him. But there has been enough bad football from him through 2 years that they should already be exploring options. Instead they are now left to keep their fingers crossed that the player we saw in years 1 and 2 (and at Duke) is not the player that shows up in year 3.
Seems a fragile basket in which to place their eggs.
Exactly.
I take the view that if you do not presently have a QB that is playing at an elite level, you have a quarterback problem.
And to simply wait for a third year QB to come around is poor management of our most precious resource. Time.
Smart teams do not wait several years for the QB to come around.
Good to know you would have cut bait with guys like Brett Favre and Drew Brees who did not really blossom into the QB's they became until their 4th and 6th seasons respectively
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given the circumstances but, especially, the limited body of work. Those people say that he has to show this year because those prior circumstances have been, at least somewhat, ameliorated. Others, based on the same information, have pronounced the final judgment that he sucks and no need to see anymore. Those are the two camps, if we are going to split into camps.
This is an oversimplification. I won't speak for anyone else; I believe we've reached the point that we shouldn't be in a "let's give Jones another year" mindset. I think his first two years have been poor enough that:
1. We should be open to drafting another QB if the opportunity arises. I believe there were enough red flags in his rookie year to justify drafting another QB in 2020. I fully admit not being a big fan of Herbert coming out of college...that was obviously a misevaluation on my part. But if the Giants had a high grade on Herbert, I believe passing on him solely because we had Jones was a massive error in judgment. Similarly, if they a QB on whom they have a high grade falls to them at #11, Jones's presence shouldn't preclude them from drafting that QB.
2. They should have brought in a better backup to push Jones. They didn't do that...they are "giving" him 2021. But has he earned it through his play?
No one is suggesting outright giving up and cutting him. But there has been enough bad football from him through 2 years that they should already be exploring options. Instead they are now left to keep their fingers crossed that the player we saw in years 1 and 2 (and at Duke) is not the player that shows up in year 3.
Seems a fragile basket in which to place their eggs.
You can't possibly be saying that the Bengals should use their pick on Fields or Lance?
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Pat Kirwan, who knows more about what to look for in a player coming into the draft than you and Terps combined x 5 (and I’m being generous) said this about Jones:
He saw Jones play a lot when at Duke, both live and on tape. He said, in all his years of scouting, he had NEVER seen a worse set of receivers during every year that DJ played there, than what/who he had to throw to. Terrible route running, but most importantly drop, after drop after drop from perfectly thrown or nearly perfectly thrown balls. He said it was uncanny..
For what it's worth, Pat Kirwan hasn't worked in any capacity for an NFL team since 1997. His resume includes stints with the Cardinals of the late 80s (bad franchise) and the Bucs of the mid-80s (also bad franchise). His tenure with the Jets (1989-1997) was a pitiful chapter in that franchise's history as well.
None of that makes him necessarily wrong of course, but if you're going to appeal to the authority of an opinion, you might want to make sure the person giving that opinion has an established history of being reliable on such matters.
I would say PK is more reliable than almost anyone on here. That he hasn’t held a professional position in years, somehow negates his ability to assess personnel? How absurd
While the Packers had a seamless QB transition, it rarely is the case. Until Brady came along, the Pats didn't have great QB play and are now struggling with him gone. The steelers prior to Ben relied on defense because they had mediocre QB's. Pick most teams and this happens. Seattle. Carolina. Denver. Giants. Basically every team out there that struggles to replace an established QB with a replacement or who struggle for years without a QB until they find one. It has nothing to do with being a smart team or not.
It comes down to eventually finding a franchise QB.
While the Packers had a seamless QB transition, it rarely is the case. Until Brady came along, the Pats didn't have great QB play and are now struggling with him gone. The steelers prior to Ben relied on defense because they had mediocre QB's. Pick most teams and this happens. Seattle. Carolina. Denver. Giants. Basically every team out there that struggles to replace an established QB with a replacement or who struggle for years without a QB until they find one. It has nothing to do with being a smart team or not.
It comes down to eventually finding a franchise QB.
actually some teams, now, look to replace good QBs with better ones. Look at the Chiefs and the Saints who both wanted Mahomes even though they had great QB play at the time.
I'm not interested in discussing what happened 20, 30, 40 years ago.
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given the circumstances but, especially, the limited body of work. Those people say that he has to show this year because those prior circumstances have been, at least somewhat, ameliorated. Others, based on the same information, have pronounced the final judgment that he sucks and no need to see anymore. Those are the two camps, if we are going to split into camps.
This is an oversimplification. I won't speak for anyone else; I believe we've reached the point that we shouldn't be in a "let's give Jones another year" mindset. I think his first two years have been poor enough that:
1. We should be open to drafting another QB if the opportunity arises. I believe there were enough red flags in his rookie year to justify drafting another QB in 2020. I fully admit not being a big fan of Herbert coming out of college...that was obviously a misevaluation on my part. But if the Giants had a high grade on Herbert, I believe passing on him solely because we had Jones was a massive error in judgment. Similarly, if they a QB on whom they have a high grade falls to them at #11, Jones's presence shouldn't preclude them from drafting that QB.
2. They should have brought in a better backup to push Jones. They didn't do that...they are "giving" him 2021. But has he earned it through his play?
No one is suggesting outright giving up and cutting him. But there has been enough bad football from him through 2 years that they should already be exploring options. Instead they are now left to keep their fingers crossed that the player we saw in years 1 and 2 (and at Duke) is not the player that shows up in year 3.
Seems a fragile basket in which to place their eggs.
Jones essentially had 2 rookie seasons and 2 is worse than 1. I am not going to spend the time and list all the circumstances. You know them. You know what I would say here, I am certain of it.
I think it is absolutely reasonable for DG to load Jones up and give him a shot on year 3 of his rookie contract based on all the circumstance surrounding his first 2 years. We need to know now. I personally feel he is an above average thrower. Physically and mechanically. I think he is accurate.
If they get him any of the weapons mocked to us Jones will have an excellent year that puts this all to bed. Even if Golloday gets injured, I wouldn't use it as an excuse. They will still be deep a WR if they land one of Pitts, Chase, Waddle or Smith. Even if they add a Moore in the second round, it will be good enough. This offense will have weapons to attack every area of the field and backups. Ideally I want blazing speed now. Pitts/Waddle are my dreams.
He is going to have enough mismatches to exploit that he is going to look a lot more confident back there. Jones will know where to go with the ball. The legendary criticism delivered by Sy 56 will be answered with easy decisions.
Jason Garret had to step in for Troy Aikman in a big game and Troy told him to throw it high and deep to Harper if he didn't know what to do. Garret had a big game. When Jones doesn't know what to do he can go high to Golloday on the outside.
Garret to Harper - ( New Window )
Miami is still looking for the successor to Marino 40 years down the road.
Who came after Elway? who came after Steve Young? those guys hung them up 20 years ago.
Amazingly, Chicago hasnt replaced McMahon (and thats a low bar), Washington has not replaced Jurgenson, Houston has not replaced Moon, the Vikings have not replaced Tarkenton, the Jets have not replaced Joe Willie. St Louis never replaced no one to begin with.
If it was easy, and there were a lot of perfect QB's then lets draft more QB's
Miami is still looking for the successor to Marino 40 years down the road.
Who came after Elway? who came after Steve Young? those guys hung them up 20 years ago.
Amazingly, Chicago hasnt replaced McMahon (and thats a low bar), Washington has not replaced Jurgenson, Houston has not replaced Moon, the Vikings have not replaced Tarkenton, the Jets have not replaced Joe Willie. St Louis never replaced no one to begin with.
If it was easy, and there were a lot of perfect QB's then lets draft more QB's
You mean St. Louis never replaced Warner, or am I misreading?
Some have used it to make McAdoo seem great. Now we are extending it to the Saints too?? So should the Cardinals, Browns, Chargers and Bengals look to replace their QB's??
By the way - talking about the chiefs. They had Alex Smith, a NFL journeyman as their QB. It is hardly surprising they looked to move on from him. The Giants did the same when they had Kerry Collins. And actually, the situations are very similar. We went to a Super Bowl with Collins.
Name a situation where a young player is pushed by a backup to threaten his position that has worked out. should be easy if it frequently happens.
I think the Jets got what they could for Darnold considering that he never became their franchise QB, and the Panthers created a dilemma for themselves because they have to determine much more quickly than the Jets Darnold's ability
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In comment 15212735 Big Blue '56 said:
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Pat Kirwan, who knows more about what to look for in a player coming into the draft than you and Terps combined x 5 (and I’m being generous) said this about Jones:
He saw Jones play a lot when at Duke, both live and on tape. He said, in all his years of scouting, he had NEVER seen a worse set of receivers during every year that DJ played there, than what/who he had to throw to. Terrible route running, but most importantly drop, after drop after drop from perfectly thrown or nearly perfectly thrown balls. He said it was uncanny..
For what it's worth, Pat Kirwan hasn't worked in any capacity for an NFL team since 1997. His resume includes stints with the Cardinals of the late 80s (bad franchise) and the Bucs of the mid-80s (also bad franchise). His tenure with the Jets (1989-1997) was a pitiful chapter in that franchise's history as well.
None of that makes him necessarily wrong of course, but if you're going to appeal to the authority of an opinion, you might want to make sure the person giving that opinion has an established history of being reliable on such matters.
I would say PK is more reliable than almost anyone on here. That he hasn’t held a professional position in years, somehow negates his ability to assess personnel? How absurd
Is there anything on PK's resume that indicates he actually can assess personnel with any significant level of expertise? Because in looking at the teams he's helped put together it's not entirely clear.
To say that he's more qualified than a bunch of message board posters is a mighty low bar to clear if you're going to appeal to his authority.
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In comment 15212877 rsjem1979 said:
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In comment 15212735 Big Blue '56 said:
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Pat Kirwan, who knows more about what to look for in a player coming into the draft than you and Terps combined x 5 (and I’m being generous) said this about Jones:
He saw Jones play a lot when at Duke, both live and on tape. He said, in all his years of scouting, he had NEVER seen a worse set of receivers during every year that DJ played there, than what/who he had to throw to. Terrible route running, but most importantly drop, after drop after drop from perfectly thrown or nearly perfectly thrown balls. He said it was uncanny..
For what it's worth, Pat Kirwan hasn't worked in any capacity for an NFL team since 1997. His resume includes stints with the Cardinals of the late 80s (bad franchise) and the Bucs of the mid-80s (also bad franchise). His tenure with the Jets (1989-1997) was a pitiful chapter in that franchise's history as well.
None of that makes him necessarily wrong of course, but if you're going to appeal to the authority of an opinion, you might want to make sure the person giving that opinion has an established history of being reliable on such matters.
I would say PK is more reliable than almost anyone on here. That he hasn’t held a professional position in years, somehow negates his ability to assess personnel? How absurd
Is there anything on PK's resume that indicates he actually can assess personnel with any significant level of expertise? Because in looking at the teams he's helped put together it's not entirely clear.
To say that he's more qualified than a bunch of message board posters is a mighty low bar to clear if you're going to appeal to his authority.
He is one of the more highly regarded Personnel evaluators that media and teams respect and at times reference. As you know he’s had a regular radio spot on Sirius for at least 10 years or so and my understanding is he watches tons of film-film most of us are not privy to..If you don’t want to trust his “eyes” or evaluating skills that’s fine. I do and yes, of course he’s not always correct.
Good to know you would have cut bait with guys like Brett Favre and Drew Brees who did not really blossom into the QB's they became until their 4th and 6th seasons respectively
Those were second round draft choices. So the situations aren't the same. Outside of the first round, I think it's fair to say those QBs are considered projects.
In comment 15212894 Bill2 said:
Other than Joe Montana and Alex Smith, sure. Unless we're just counting between SB QBs, in which case maybe I misread the question.
Miami has found a handful of successors that are pretty typical for what the NFL QB market delivers, IMO. Fiedler, Pennington, Fitzpatrick - those are all NFL QBs. Not greats by any stretch, but they're fairly representative of where most NFL QBs reside. This is a potentially likely tier for DJ, as well, and that's not a knock against him, it's just a function of probability.
Immediately after Elway and holding down the spot until Peyton? Bubby Brister was really a career backup. Jay Cutler flashed as a franchise QB but ultimately lacked the constitution. Tim Tebow was a QB who couldn't actually throw the ball well. Brock Osweiler couldn''t really do anything well. It's a pretty good representation of the range of outcomes that you might get when looking for a QB and he doesn't wind up being a franchise QB. Is that what Jones is? A forgettable footnote?
Jeff Garcia came after Steve Young. Alex Smith came after Garcia. I might be missing a few short-term placeholders that were in the mix along the way. As of today, Garcia and Smith are better than Jones, but Jones has a very good chance to surpass both of them. Still, that's not a great example, IMO - that franchise hasn't been QB-starved; they're just a good example of what a pretty good, not great NFL QB looks like.
Are these the franchises we want to be in the company of? Does identifying the QB-barren scorched earth of the NFL make Jones any better or worse? Are we trying to justify mediocrity or root for success?
It's not easy, that's for sure. Most teams fail far more often than they succeed when it comes to choosing their QB, and it's in clear contrast when a young QB follows a franchise legend. There shouldn't be any apologies required for that.
There also shouldn't be any make-believe scenarios that the successor is a sure thing when, as you pointed out, it's incredibly improbable that he's anything but mediocre.
But there's no precluding causal effect between having had a good one and finding the next one.
Quarterback has extraordinary outsized impact among team sports. It has no parallel. Getting it right should be the number one priority of management.
If anything teams don't push hard enough to have meaningful competition and a pipeline in my view.
But there's no precluding causal effect between having had a good one and finding the next one.
Quarterback has extraordinary outsized impact among team sports. It has no parallel. Getting it right should be the number one priority of management.
If anything teams don't push hard enough to have meaningful competition and a pipeline in my view.
They definitely don’t push hard enough. Not sure about why although it is clearly difficult to balance patience against development and the inevitable excuses that arise with other weaknesses in the roster. We certainly have seen that from the fan base here tor quite a few years now.
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Finding a good quarterback is hard.
But there's no precluding causal effect between having had a good one and finding the next one.
Quarterback has extraordinary outsized impact among team sports. It has no parallel. Getting it right should be the number one priority of management.
If anything teams don't push hard enough to have meaningful competition and a pipeline in my view.
They definitely don’t push hard enough. Not sure about why although it is clearly difficult to balance patience against development and the inevitable excuses that arise with other weaknesses in the roster. We certainly have seen that from the fan base here tor quite a few years now.
I think we are seeing a sea change. There are more QBs coming out who fit pro offenses more than ever before. And with rules changes that emphasize the passing game much more than even 10 years ago, never mind 40 years ago, finding an elite QB for your team is more pressing than in decades past. We will likely see QBs go 1-2-3-4 and 5 in the top 10. Attitudes about QBs are rightly changing. For people who want to stick to assumptions from 30 years ago - fine. They are sticking their heads in the sand. For teams who think this is the same sport it was in 1983 - they are going to be left behind.
It's tricky and risky to time when to fold and start again.
Imo, it's not yet time ( and it's out of my hands) and for me it wrecks watching the actual Giants that are getting better to obsess about this aspect ( for which we don't have all the data or the insights to decide).
Lastly, imo, posting ones thoughts is very different then posting them over and over and over and over again in pursuit of an inner need I'm not familiar with
It's tricky and risky to time when to fold and start again.
Imo, it's not yet time ( and it's out of my hands) and for me it wrecks watching the actual Giants that are getting better to obsess about this aspect ( for which we don't have all the data or the insights to decide).
Lastly, imo, posting ones thoughts is very different then posting them over and over and over and over again in pursuit of an inner need I'm not familiar with
I have to say, that while I get that you play the game to win and I really really want to win (as much as anyone else), I also just love watching a team grow. I love pre-season (for almost all sports) about as much as I do the regular season because I love watching guys I never heard of. For me, it's part 2 of the draft (that we all live and fixate upon) because it's the implementation phase for the picks we were excited about. I don't think I would watch much or find satisfaction in the juggernaut team that just pounds everyone. It's why I hate the NBA teams that just accumulate the superstar friends and then beat everyone else up.
I enjoy the struggle as much as I enjoy the success. There so much more hope and fulfillment involved. So, I don't get all the bile that some people have.
It's tricky and risky to time when to fold and start again.
Imo, it's not yet time ( and it's out of my hhands) and for me it wrecks watching the actual Giants that are getting better to obsess about this aspect ( for which we don't have all the data or the insights to decide).
Lastly, imo, posting ones thoughts is very different then posting them over and over and over and over again in pursuit of an inner need I'm not familiar with
Understood. AT THIS JUNCTURE, no one really knows what we have in DJ, opinions aside. To claim to KNOW at this point in time, can only be deemed silly and rather stupid.
BB56, with all due respect to even the posters I do respect, why would anyone follow for a minute anyone on BBI regarding this subject at this time ( and I personally, with very little knowledge, have doubts about DJ and also clear reasons he has put on tape to hope for better as well)? But no one here (or in the media) has provided much insight based on the data we have so far that is superior in deciphering the mix of what our eyes tell us
Im reminded of those etchings showing water diviners walking around with their "Y" shaped branches to advise others where to drill a well
The Giants should have a very good defense. They will have improved specials. They play in a division where the other teams have serious flaws.
Jones this year needs to be the reason they win a couple of these division games. Most of the other games probably come down to the 4th Qtr. Manage the game and in the 4th win some of these by making a big throw in a tight window on third down. Take the team down the field in the last two minutes for a walk off field goal.
I think a big key will be gaining confidence for Jones. Best way to do that is play big in big moments and be the reason your team wins. Do this and he will "elevate" the team and they will win more.
I rather see him have these big moments than debate what QBR he needs to continue as the Giants QB at this stage of his career.
Simple and to the point.
I rather see him have these big moments than debate what QBR he needs to continue as the Giants QB at this stage of his career.
Has QBR been mentioned as a benchmark? Maybe I didn't see it. But it shouldn't be the lead indicator, although I do see the value as a metric.
But I think Jones is responsible for points and getting us closer to 25ppg. And that's going to require him, and we were down this road last week, getting very close to 30TD passes.
Except when it really mattered. Then he was the best QB on the field
Whatever the metric, Jones needs to be among the QBs who doesn't consistently put his team in a hole quarters 1-3, and then can come up big.
But let's not fool ourselves into thinking both of those factors won't take dramatic improvement. We're talking about a guy who has led the league in fumbles in consecutive years and has total 1 career 4th quarter comeback and 2 game winning drives.
Whatever the metric, Jones needs to be among the QBs who doesn't consistently put his team in a hole quarters 1-3, and then can come up big.
But let's not fool ourselves into thinking both of those factors won't take dramatic improvement. We're talking about a guy who has led the league in fumbles in consecutive years and has total 1 career 4th quarter comeback and 2 game winning drives.
He led the league in fumbles last year? That’s news to me
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I rather see him have these big moments than debate what QBR he needs to continue as the Giants QB at this stage of his career.
Has QBR been mentioned as a benchmark? Maybe I didn't see it. But it shouldn't be the lead indicator, although I do see the value as a metric.
But I think Jones is responsible for points and getting us closer to 25ppg. And that's going to require him, and we were down this road last week, getting very close to 30TD passes.
QBR and stats overall are always front and center on this site.
Giants vs. Dallas 2007 Divisional game. Dallas beat them twice already that year, were a big favorite and at home. Dallas was beating up the Giants pretty good in the first half. Eli takes the Giants down the field for a score at the end of the half. Makes key conversions and gave the Giants a chance in the second half. No turnovers in the game overall.
Tony Romo against a very tired D with a chance to walk his team off with a win............misses a open receiver in the endzone.
Eli would go on to win two Super Bowl MVP's. Tony Romo never played in a championship game. Big moments in big games matter. Do we have stats for this?
Has QBR been mentioned as a benchmark? Maybe I didn't see it. But it shouldn't be the lead indicator, although I do see the value as a metric.
But I think Jones is responsible for points and getting us closer to 25ppg. And that's going to require him, and we were down this road last week, getting very close to 30TD passes.
QBR and stats overall are always front and center on this site.
Giants vs. Dallas 2007 Divisional game. Dallas beat them twice already that year, were a big favorite and at home. Dallas was beating up the Giants pretty good in the first half. Eli takes the Giants down the field for a score at the end of the half. Makes key conversions and gave the Giants a chance in the second half. No turnovers in the game overall.
Tony Romo against a very tired D with a chance to walk his team off with a win............misses a open receiver in the endzone.
Eli would go on to win two Super Bowl MVP's. Tony Romo never played in a championship game. Big moments in big games matter. Do we have stats for this?
I'm not sure what Eli has to do with this - again. He's really an outlier as a QB. So using him as comp for Jones continues to make little sense to me.
With Jones, he needs to be a points producer. He needs to figure out to create significantly more TDs and be the centerpiece of the offense.
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Being in striking distance in the 4th quarter is often the product of not making myriad mistakes in the previous 3 quarters.
Whatever the metric, Jones needs to be among the QBs who doesn't consistently put his team in a hole quarters 1-3, and then can come up big.
But let's not fool ourselves into thinking both of those factors won't take dramatic improvement. We're talking about a guy who has led the league in fumbles in consecutive years and has total 1 career 4th quarter comeback and 2 game winning drives.
He led the league in fumbles last year? That’s news to me
He tied Carr for the lead in fumbles with 11.
For reference Carr had 1007 snaps/517 attempts, and Jones 868/448.
QBR and stats overall are always front and center on this site.
Giants vs. Dallas 2007 Divisional game. Dallas beat them twice already that year, were a big favorite and at home. Dallas was beating up the Giants pretty good in the first half. Eli takes the Giants down the field for a score at the end of the half. Makes key conversions and gave the Giants a chance in the second half. No turnovers in the game overall.
Tony Romo against a very tired D with a chance to walk his team off with a win............misses a open receiver in the endzone.
Eli would go on to win two Super Bowl MVP's. Tony Romo never played in a championship game. Big moments in big games matter. Do we have stats for this?
We sure do! Manning doesn't have that opportunity if the Giants don't make the playoffs (10 wins).
By that point in his career Manning had 7 4th quarter comebacks, and 8 game winning drives.
Manning had demonstrated he could do this stuff.
He had a troubling bad season. The type of season we'd mock if he were Darnold, Rosen, Wentz, etc.
He's got to be a lot better to even be a game manager type.
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In comment 15213048 christian said:
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Being in striking distance in the 4th quarter is often the product of not making myriad mistakes in the previous 3 quarters.
Whatever the metric, Jones needs to be among the QBs who doesn't consistently put his team in a hole quarters 1-3, and then can come up big.
But let's not fool ourselves into thinking both of those factors won't take dramatic improvement. We're talking about a guy who has led the league in fumbles in consecutive years and has total 1 career 4th quarter comeback and 2 game winning drives.
He led the league in fumbles last year? That’s news to me
He tied Carr for the lead in fumbles with 11.
For reference Carr had 1007 snaps/517 attempts, and Jones 868/448.
Thanks..No question that has to be cleaned up
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In comment 15213048 christian said:
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Being in striking distance in the 4th quarter is often the product of not making myriad mistakes in the previous 3 quarters.
Whatever the metric, Jones needs to be among the QBs who doesn't consistently put his team in a hole quarters 1-3, and then can come up big.
But let's not fool ourselves into thinking both of those factors won't take dramatic improvement. We're talking about a guy who has led the league in fumbles in consecutive years and has total 1 career 4th quarter comeback and 2 game winning drives.
He led the league in fumbles last year? That’s news to me
He tied Carr for the lead in fumbles with 11.
For reference Carr had 1007 snaps/517 attempts, and Jones 868/448.
That is odd, considering we read so much how DJ got the ball security issues fixed in 2020. Particularly in the second half of 2020.
So in reality he didn’t really fix it...he just didn’t set any more league records. Better news, just not good news.
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In comment 15213048 christian said:
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Being in striking distance in the 4th quarter is often the product of not making myriad mistakes in the previous 3 quarters.
Whatever the metric, Jones needs to be among the QBs who doesn't consistently put his team in a hole quarters 1-3, and then can come up big.
But let's not fool ourselves into thinking both of those factors won't take dramatic improvement. We're talking about a guy who has led the league in fumbles in consecutive years and has total 1 career 4th quarter comeback and 2 game winning drives.
He led the league in fumbles last year? That’s news to me
He tied Carr for the lead in fumbles with 11.
For reference Carr had 1007 snaps/517 attempts, and Jones 868/448.
So he went from setting fumble records to just leading the league.
Well, I guess that is at least better news albeit not good news.
He had a troubling bad season. The type of season we'd mock if he were Darnold, Rosen, Wentz, etc.
He's got to be a lot better to even be a game manager type.
Well as you know, I wholeheartedly disagree with the “troubling bad season.”
I look at it this way. With no preseason (every team had that) and a new coaching staff and OC(most teams did not have that), he took awhile to get going. He was not good. You want to call him terrible, that’s fine.
I then feel he started to move the chains/team with his legs and arm and looked good doing it..Maybe not “QBR” good, but team good. Then he got injured and tge mobility, that made him a double threat, was lost..
In sum, I can’t disagree with the “troubling bad” part of what you said, but only for the first 1/3 (or whatever time frame) of the season. Once he appeared to settle in, he was looking as though he was getting it..So SEASON? Disagree, First PART of the season, absolutely..
But, I’m repeating myself and I hate having to do that..NO ONE’S changing their minds over what I have to say. We shall see what 2021 brings..
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In comment 15212931 christian said:
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Finding a good quarterback is hard.
But there's no precluding causal effect between having had a good one and finding the next one.
Quarterback has extraordinary outsized impact among team sports. It has no parallel. Getting it right should be the number one priority of management.
If anything teams don't push hard enough to have meaningful competition and a pipeline in my view.
They definitely don’t push hard enough. Not sure about why although it is clearly difficult to balance patience against development and the inevitable excuses that arise with other weaknesses in the roster. We certainly have seen that from the fan base here tor quite a few years now.
I think we are seeing a sea change. There are more QBs coming out who fit pro offenses more than ever before. And with rules changes that emphasize the passing game much more than even 10 years ago, never mind 40 years ago, finding an elite QB for your team is more pressing than in decades past. We will likely see QBs go 1-2-3-4 and 5 in the top 10. Attitudes about QBs are rightly changing. For people who want to stick to assumptions from 30 years ago - fine. They are sticking their heads in the sand. For teams who think this is the same sport it was in 1983 - they are going to be left behind.
As Kiper said yesterday (which I quoted earlier in the thread), league wide guys are going to get 3 maybe 4 seasons to show they've got the stuff to stick, or they're being replaced. Bringing up Brees, Favre, Eli, etc is irrelevant because the league attitude towards QB development has changed. The so-so guys aren't going to get that fifth or sixth year to breakout, at least not with their first team.
We'll see if Darnold becomes an example of that.
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In comment 15213054 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 15213048 christian said:
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Being in striking distance in the 4th quarter is often the product of not making myriad mistakes in the previous 3 quarters.
Whatever the metric, Jones needs to be among the QBs who doesn't consistently put his team in a hole quarters 1-3, and then can come up big.
But let's not fool ourselves into thinking both of those factors won't take dramatic improvement. We're talking about a guy who has led the league in fumbles in consecutive years and has total 1 career 4th quarter comeback and 2 game winning drives.
He led the league in fumbles last year? That’s news to me
He tied Carr for the lead in fumbles with 11.
For reference Carr had 1007 snaps/517 attempts, and Jones 868/448.
So he went from setting fumble records to just leading the league.
Well, I guess that is at least better news albeit not good news.
The 45 and and 32 TDs respectively, the lower fumbles per snap rate, the double digit wins, and the playoffs win kind of balance it out.
Actually I would bet that you couldn’t.
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fumbles if he was throwing 30TDs, rushing for 1K, rushing for another 10+ TDs, and winning MVPs like LJax.
Actually I would bet that you couldn’t.
Why?
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In comment 15213229 bw in dc said:
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fumbles if he was throwing 30TDs, rushing for 1K, rushing for another 10+ TDs, and winning MVPs like LJax.
Actually I would bet that you couldn’t.
Why?
He (and you) have enough history.
At this point he’s merely a placeholder for you.
We're not just predisposed to hating Jones. There's a reason we're critical.
Actually no. The critique in this exchange is that if Jones is going to be relied on to be a clutch QB at the end of games, he also needs to not put the Giants under water earlier in games.
If he were counterbalancing his mistakes with overwhelming productivity like the players you mentioned, it would be a net positive.
But thank you for inadvertently contributing the term still fumblers to the BBI vernacular. I’m glad you were able to finally add something.
We're not just predisposed to hating Jones. There's a reason we're critical.
Jackson's game is going to take a big hit after he loses some of his AA, he relies on it to get guys wide open to make up for some of his poor acccuracy, especially to the sidelines. Making these declarations so early in their career is asinine. You can post your opinion, but to act like it's decided one way or another is ridiculous.
It can't be said enough, but DJ played with absolute garbage last year and I saw a ton of growth starting in the 2nd half of that Bucs game that continued until he got hurt. I saw what they were trying to do with him early, but like many here, I wasn't sure if he was going to make it early in the season, and was pretty down to tbh around the Rams game.
What I saw as the season progresses gives me a ton of confidence in his ability. But to act like it's some ridiculous statement isn't so far off. It's the NFL and things change fast and who knows what the hell Lamar's career ends up like with him being so unusual. Will Lamar end up as a career top 10 QB? I don't know, but I feel confident Jones will be a perennial at least top 12 guy. That's the floor I see. Whether that is worth a second contract or not is something we can revisit in the future, but I certainly think he can be better than that. I think a lot of people are going to be suprised this year, pleasantly for some of them, I'm not so sure.
I am critical of him because he hasn't been good. That simple.
He’s just got to do it.
When he has a good season, it won’t be a shock. But it will be much different than the last 2 years.
He’s just got to do it.
When he has a good season, it won’t be a shock. But it will be much different than the last 2 years.
I wouldn't be surprised if they reduce his running this year.
I don't hate Jones. But do think he was over-drafted.
Now that he's been handed the keys, however, I expect him to play like the 6th pick in the draft. Which is to be a great player. That's why these so called "experts" in the front office drafted him. Apparently they saw something I didn't. Okay, than let's lead the team to points and wins.
While I understand that Jones hasn't been dealt the best hand, I expect him to figure it and solve the problem. And everyday I wonder why the hell the rest of the board doesn't it view this similarly...
So I don't want to be patient with Jones because I see too many examples of other high drafted QBs who get it quickly.
Two recent quarterbacks I’ve watched who had streaks of pretty good play, but ultimately couldn’t do it week in and out are Mariota and Trubisky. Just like Jones the last 2 years, if you catch them in the right light, you see a pretty good NFL quarterback.
It’s not hard to find small stretches of games where Jones looked like a good player. It’s easier to find stretches where he looked pretty rough. That’s how you pile up the losses and accumulate bad numbers.
I don’t think Jones has the ceiling of some of his peers. I don’t think he’ll ever be an MVP. But he can be good. He can be Dak Prescott good.
It's tricky and risky to time when to fold and start again.
Imo, it's not yet time ( and it's out of my hands) and for me it wrecks watching the actual Giants that are getting better to obsess about this aspect ( for which we don't have all the data or the insights to decide).
Lastly, imo, posting ones thoughts is very different then posting them over and over and over and over again in pursuit of an inner need I'm not familiar with
Just a need to be heard I guess...even though people get (have gotten) sick and tired of hearing the same shit from them. 😉
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Do you have any sense of how any comparison of Jones to Jackson or Allen sounds completely crazy?
We're not just predisposed to hating Jones. There's a reason we're critical.
ill concede your first part but there’s no way in hell that the second part is true.
You’ll concede the first part? Why did you ever even bring it up yesterday, just to argue with me for no reason?
1) A lower mediocre OL, that showed SOME improvement later in the year.
2) A lower journeyman rb corps once Barkley went down. Gallman led the bunch with 682 yards.
3) A wr corps without a single standout player and with only one or two that sometimes played up to the #2 wr level. I have hopes for Slayton, but he led the team during his sophomore slump, with 751 yard.
4) A TE corps headed by an undersized TE who specialized in dropping the ball.
Opposing defenses could stack the box against Jones, because never had any talent around him that the defenses worried about. I'm not even all that worried about Jones' dropsies, if Barkley get back close to normal and the OL gets a bit better and more consistent. Jones never developed a natural rhythm, given the awful level of talent around him.
As some have said, I think there is a case for Jones as a 10-15 ranked qb, and that would probably be sufficient. If Barkley makes it back and the wrs excel, he could look so much better.
Hope you're doing well.
Referencing an kind of widely held concrete bedrock read on QB development is nothing short of impossible. Sitting here saying you know is hilarious. You don't. You're not a better judge of QBs than people in the NFL and if you get this right, and Jones is washed out in 2 years, good for you, you got lucky.
How many QBs start off like gangbusters only to be reduced to backup status by their 5th year in the league? How many look ordinary through 2-3 years only to be title winning caliber by year 5-6?
It's not that some of you think Jones won't reach a high enough ceiling that is tough to stomach, it's that you lambast the Giants for doing what they should be doing. Let the kid play and allow for ample development before going in a different direction. You're all but spitting in the face of what teams have been doing for decades, inluding what this very franchise did with the last 2 legendary NYG QBs.
Oh, I am not supposed to bring up Simms and Eli? Yeah, fuck that noise. They are terrific comparisons. They both needed time to reach their potential and save me the horse shit of different eras.
Think Miami wants that decision back? They panicked. They couldn't wait to run Tannehill out of town and now they are left with nothing at QB.
It does happen.
Think Miami wants that decision back? They panicked. They couldn't wait to run Tannehill out of town and now they are left with nothing at QB.
It does happen.
In the same breadth you are preaching for patience, you're effectively calling Tua Tagovailoa nothing at BQ (6-3 record, 11TD:5INT, 3RTD:1 FMB)
If Tua is nothing, this is going to be a fun debate.
When a Sam Darnold thread or a Saquon Barkley thread becomes another referendum to hash out what happened in 2018 or 2019 and focuses more on Jones or the GM instead of the thread subjects, there's little fun to be had.
Just another chance for people to step in and repeat what they've said every day.
When a Sam Darnold thread or a Saquon Barkley thread becomes another referendum to hash out what happened in 2018 or 2019 and focuses more on Jones or the GM instead of the thread subjects, there's little fun to be had.
Just another chance for people to step in and repeat what they've said every day.
As always, you are welcome to not participate and not be missed.
Oh, I am not supposed to bring up Simms and Eli? Yeah, fuck that noise. They are terrific comparisons. They both needed time to reach their potential and save me the horse shit of different eras.
If you can't acknowledge the different era factor than you really aren't worth engaging on this. Because it's never been easier to play QB in the NFL. QBs are hitting the ground running because the pro game is more like the college game and the rules are very pro-offense. So the learning curve is much more shallow.
Concurrently, it's never been easier to play WR due to those same rule changes. So more WRs are hitting the ground running and continue to put him massive numbers.
When a Sam Darnold thread or a Saquon Barkley thread becomes another referendum to hash out what happened in 2018 or 2019 and focuses more on Jones or the GM instead of the thread subjects, there's little fun to be had.
Just another chance for people to step in and repeat what they've said every day.
I never got your address so I could send you the Kleenex. I'd like to send a mirror as well so you can starting looking at it.
I don't hate Jones. But do think he was over-drafted.
Now that he's been handed the keys, however, I expect him to play like the 6th pick in the draft. Which is to be a great player. That's why these so called "experts" in the front office drafted him. Apparently they saw something I didn't. Okay, than let's lead the team to points and wins.
While I understand that Jones hasn't been dealt the best hand, I expect him to figure it and solve the problem. And everyday I wonder why the hell the rest of the board doesn't it view this similarly...
So I don't want to be patient with Jones because I see too many examples of other high drafted QBs who get it quickly.
lol. So what QB are you thinking would have been lights out on the Giants last year?
I don't hate Jones. But do think he was over-drafted.
Now that he's been handed the keys, however, I expect him to play like the 6th pick in the draft. Which is to be a great player. That's why these so called "experts" in the front office drafted him. Apparently they saw something I didn't. Okay, than let's lead the team to points and wins.
While I understand that Jones hasn't been dealt the best hand, I expect him to figure it and solve the problem. And everyday I wonder why the hell the rest of the board doesn't it view this similarly...
So I don't want to be patient with Jones because I see too many examples of other high drafted QBs who get it quickly.
lol. So what QB are you thinking would have been lights out on the Giants last year?
And, I am back to writing part time on markets and policy, because my brain unscrambled when the other crap went away.
Now I am going through an amicable divorce. Busy life, just as Covid hopefully recedes.
I'll give it a few months before I promote the manh vs. BB'56 matchup!
Always good to hear your perspective and keep on bench pressing!!!
Referencing an kind of widely held concrete bedrock read on QB development is nothing short of impossible. Sitting here saying you know is hilarious. You don't. You're not a better judge of QBs than people in the NFL and if you get this right, and Jones is washed out in 2 years, good for you, you got lucky.
How many QBs start off like gangbusters only to be reduced to backup status by their 5th year in the league? How many look ordinary through 2-3 years only to be title winning caliber by year 5-6?
It's not that some of you think Jones won't reach a high enough ceiling that is tough to stomach, it's that you lambast the Giants for doing what they should be doing. Let the kid play and allow for ample development before going in a different direction. You're all but spitting in the face of what teams have been doing for decades, inluding what this very franchise did with the last 2 legendary NYG QBs.
Oh, I am not supposed to bring up Simms and Eli? Yeah, fuck that noise. They are terrific comparisons. They both needed time to reach their potential and save me the horse shit of different eras.
The league as a whole is getting more impatient, which is why whats been going on for decades is irrelevant to the conversation. The thread was (originally) about Darnold being traded due in large part because he didn't show enough in 3 years. Teams aren't going to be giving guys 5-6-7 years to develop any more.
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aren't fun debates, they are forced ones.
When a Sam Darnold thread or a Saquon Barkley thread becomes another referendum to hash out what happened in 2018 or 2019 and focuses more on Jones or the GM instead of the thread subjects, there's little fun to be had.
Just another chance for people to step in and repeat what they've said every day.
As always, you are welcome to not participate and not be missed.
Comic relief
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if QBs ALWAYS showed their true peak or ceiling 10-20 or so games in and that was that, the QB position wouldn't be the most confounding position in PRO sports.
Referencing an kind of widely held concrete bedrock read on QB development is nothing short of impossible. Sitting here saying you know is hilarious. You don't. You're not a better judge of QBs than people in the NFL and if you get this right, and Jones is washed out in 2 years, good for you, you got lucky.
How many QBs start off like gangbusters only to be reduced to backup status by their 5th year in the league? How many look ordinary through 2-3 years only to be title winning caliber by year 5-6?
It's not that some of you think Jones won't reach a high enough ceiling that is tough to stomach, it's that you lambast the Giants for doing what they should be doing. Let the kid play and allow for ample development before going in a different direction. You're all but spitting in the face of what teams have been doing for decades, inluding what this very franchise did with the last 2 legendary NYG QBs.
Oh, I am not supposed to bring up Simms and Eli? Yeah, fuck that noise. They are terrific comparisons. They both needed time to reach their potential and save me the horse shit of different eras.
The league as a whole is getting more impatient, which is why whats been going on for decades is irrelevant to the conversation. The thread was (originally) about Darnold being traded due in large part because he didn't show enough in 3 years. Teams aren't going to be giving guys 5-6-7 years to develop any more.
Scooter making this point on several threads lately and it is spot on.
Way too many here not listening and keep stepping in horse shit...
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In comment 15213541 djm said:
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if QBs ALWAYS showed their true peak or ceiling 10-20 or so games in and that was that, the QB position wouldn't be the most confounding position in PRO sports.
Referencing an kind of widely held concrete bedrock read on QB development is nothing short of impossible. Sitting here saying you know is hilarious. You don't. You're not a better judge of QBs than people in the NFL and if you get this right, and Jones is washed out in 2 years, good for you, you got lucky.
How many QBs start off like gangbusters only to be reduced to backup status by their 5th year in the league? How many look ordinary through 2-3 years only to be title winning caliber by year 5-6?
It's not that some of you think Jones won't reach a high enough ceiling that is tough to stomach, it's that you lambast the Giants for doing what they should be doing. Let the kid play and allow for ample development before going in a different direction. You're all but spitting in the face of what teams have been doing for decades, inluding what this very franchise did with the last 2 legendary NYG QBs.
Oh, I am not supposed to bring up Simms and Eli? Yeah, fuck that noise. They are terrific comparisons. They both needed time to reach their potential and save me the horse shit of different eras.
The league as a whole is getting more impatient, which is why whats been going on for decades is irrelevant to the conversation. The thread was (originally) about Darnold being traded due in large part because he didn't show enough in 3 years. Teams aren't going to be giving guys 5-6-7 years to develop any more.
Scooter making this point on several threads lately and it is spot on.
Way too many here not listening and keep stepping in horse shit...
Actually I think I've only made the point in this thread 🤣
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Oh, I am not supposed to bring up Simms and Eli? Yeah, fuck that noise. They are terrific comparisons. They both needed time to reach their potential and save me the horse shit of different eras.
If you can't acknowledge the different era factor than you really aren't worth engaging on this. Because it's never been easier to play QB in the NFL. QBs are hitting the ground running because the pro game is more like the college game and the rules are very pro-offense. So the learning curve is much more shallow.
I always thought this theory as to why is interesting.
Madden makes young football players better - ( New Window )
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look at Ryan Tannehill! He's a pro bowl caliber QB now. You want to say he won't win a title with the Titans? MAybe. But he's most definitely a damn good legit starting QB. His production the last 2 years obliterates any production he posted through his tenure in Miami.
Think Miami wants that decision back? They panicked. They couldn't wait to run Tannehill out of town and now they are left with nothing at QB.
It does happen.
In the same breadth you are preaching for patience, you're effectively calling Tua Tagovailoa nothing at BQ (6-3 record, 11TD:5INT, 3RTD:1 FMB)
If Tua is nothing, this is going to be a fun debate.
that's really not the point. Would Miami like to go back and redo things? Tannenhill is a terrific QB now.
Jones needs to stay on the field, lower turnovers and hit those 12-15 yard passes in tight windows and to the sideline. Good NFL defenses are very good at taking away areas of the field and they are going to scheme to make Jones make these throws imo. I think they see he likes the deep ball and will scheme accordingly.
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Oh, I am not supposed to bring up Simms and Eli? Yeah, fuck that noise. They are terrific comparisons. They both needed time to reach their potential and save me the horse shit of different eras.
If you can't acknowledge the different era factor than you really aren't worth engaging on this. Because it's never been easier to play QB in the NFL. QBs are hitting the ground running because the pro game is more like the college game and the rules are very pro-offense. So the learning curve is much more shallow.
Concurrently, it's never been easier to play WR due to those same rule changes. So more WRs are hitting the ground running and continue to put him massive numbers.
Right. So what about Ryan Tannenhill? What about Dak Prescott and how he went from merely productive and one that didn't screw things up (2016 -17) to insanely productive and indispensable (2019 and 2020 prior to injury) or how about someone like Mayfield? Didn't look so good in year 2 did he. Year 3 he's the cat's pajamas again. Are you going to tell me that Bills fans haven't gone from liking a player to going full bloom love for Josh Allen from years 1-2 to year 3-4? Really.
Conversely, what about the young up starts that turn into chicken shit by year 3-4? it goes both ways. The first 3-4 years of a QBs lifeline can be wacky, to say the least.
I give up. Friggin exhausting and not worth the time. Say with a straight face that every QB is a finished product after 2 years and anyone with a clue will laugh you out of the room.
Maybe so. I am not ready to put Herbert into canton just yet and you shouldn't either. Herbert had a nice rookie year. So did Daniel Jones, granted a little bit less productive.
And guess which QB is playing for a new HC this year...yep, that guy. Could be an interesting second year for Herbert. He could reach an even higher level or regress, statistically.
I'm skeptical/down on Jones but I can easily see a scenario where he puts up above-average numbers this year. I think Garrett's offense was awful for what Jones does well.
I've watched too much Darnold for a Giants fan the past three years - I think Jones is easily better. I see more potential in Jones than I've ever seen in Darnold.
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Herbert is probably already a better player than Tannehill, and he's a lot cheaper.
Maybe so. I am not ready to put Herbert into canton just yet and you shouldn't either. Herbert had a nice rookie year. So did Daniel Jones, granted a little bit less productive.
And guess which QB is playing for a new HC this year...yep, that guy. Could be an interesting second year for Herbert. He could reach an even higher level or regress, statistically.
Jones and Herbert did not have comparable rookie years.
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In comment 15213871 Go Terps said:
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Herbert is probably already a better player than Tannehill, and he's a lot cheaper.
Maybe so. I am not ready to put Herbert into canton just yet and you shouldn't either. Herbert had a nice rookie year. So did Daniel Jones, granted a little bit less productive.
And guess which QB is playing for a new HC this year...yep, that guy. Could be an interesting second year for Herbert. He could reach an even higher level or regress, statistically.
Jones and Herbert did not have comparable rookie years.
Agree. they are not comparable in any way. Herbert flashed a stunning skill set. He is far ahead of Jones, imo. Much bigger arm. Much better athlete.
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
Really? What did I get wrong about the fumbles? Enlighten me Googs.
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that get it wrong like you talking about his fumbles.
Really? What did I get wrong about the fumbles? Enlighten me Googs.
Give it some more thought. If you haven’t gotten it in the next hour then I will help you out.
He led the league with 11 fumbles.
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In comment 15213967 Jimmy Googs said:
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that get it wrong like you talking about his fumbles.
Really? What did I get wrong about the fumbles? Enlighten me Googs.
Give it some more thought. If you haven’t gotten it in the next hour then I will help you out.
Yeah... Ok. You do that.
He led the league with 11 fumbles.
I said mostly corrected. He dropped it from 18 to 11 and yeah I AGREE that still needs to improve. So I overstated with "mostly" corrected. I don't hear you killing Lamar Jackson, who only had one less for the year. Why is that?
Comparably in 2020:
Derek Carr 11
Daniel Jones 11
Taysom Hill 10
Lamar Jackson 10
Carson Wentz 10
Josh Allen 9
Joe Burrow 9
Kirk Cousins 9
Jalen Hurts 9
Kyler Murray 9
Justin Herbert 8
Drew Lock 8
Baker Mayfield 8
Deshaun Watson 8
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
The discussion is old but has to keep being brought up by posters like Jimmy Clownshoes.
The "why" behind that is more telling. What does talking about fumbles in April mean when the QB will be the QB going into the season and he's going to get another year no matter how many times people want to scream that he sucks.
Clowshoes make annoying sounds. Just like Jimmy Boy and his rotating stable of handles.
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Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
Because you happened to guess right? No fucking way.
You may be right, but how do you think Lamar Jackson looks on last years Giants?
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Christian covered that above. It's because Jackson is a better player than Jones by an order of magnitude.
You may be right, but how do you think Lamar Jackson looks on last years Giants?
Significantly better than Jones, and almost certainly the division champion.
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In comment 15214003 Go Terps said:
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Christian covered that above. It's because Jackson is a better player than Jones by an order of magnitude.
You may be right, but how do you think Lamar Jackson looks on last years Giants?
Significantly better than Jones, and almost certainly the division champion.
Maybe. Better? Likely. Significantly? Not sure I can agree with that. He would have been getting hit a SHIT TON more than he did in Baltimore that's for sure. I think Lamar Jacksons success has as much to do with the situation and Harbaugh. If NY Giants drafted Jackson I would bet good money people are calling him a bust right about now. And I like Jackson, I liked him coming out.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
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that get it wrong like you talking about his fumbles.
The discussion is old but has to keep being brought up by posters like Jimmy Clownshoes.
The "why" behind that is more telling. What does talking about fumbles in April mean when the QB will be the QB going into the season and he's going to get another year no matter how many times people want to scream that he sucks.
Clowshoes make annoying sounds. Just like Jimmy Boy and his rotating stable of handles.
I didn’t bring it up. But have no issues discussing things about the starting QB of the Giants. You know because it’s a fan discussion board.
And you just continue to embarrass yourself looking for certain posters to follow around and call them names. You can tell when you are getting annoyed as the bullying and name calling intensifies itself. And then you soon look for that trap door.
Comic relief...
He led the league with 11 fumbles.
Terps - Johnny needed to figure that out without your assist please...
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
For sure. Although IIRC
Jones scored consistently over 20 pts in what looked like a better offense in his rookie year. Well, better suited offense to him anyway. We know the Giants were a mess for way too many years now. And I don't absolve Gettleman at all, but I really feel like we are on the upswing with Judge. And that goes for player eval, FA signing, drafting, and most importantly coaching. I still have my fears about Garrett and the OL, and I really don't think anyone should be counting on Barkley this season but if the OL stabilizes a bit more I think we will see a very good QB in Jones. We'll see.. we will know one way or the other that's for sure. And GT I know you are glass half empty on it but thanks for at least having a reasonable discussion.
lol ok, I was underplaying it a lil bit... lil bit
I had an attachment to the players from 05-11, Eli especially. Those guys have us a lot of great, happy moments that we'll remember forever. As such I gave as lot of them (especially Eli) the benefit of the doubt.
I don't feel attached to any of these players. They've only delivered bad, losing football. Until they do better, they're not getting any more benefit of the doubt from me than I would give any other team.
I don't think that's glass half empty. I think that's just fair.
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We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
For sure. Although IIRC
Jones scored consistently over 20 pts in what looked like a better offense in his rookie year. Well, better suited offense to him anyway. We know the Giants were a mess for way too many years now. And I don't absolve Gettleman at all, but I really feel like we are on the upswing with Judge. And that goes for player eval, FA signing, drafting, and most importantly coaching. I still have my fears about Garrett and the OL, and I really don't think anyone should be counting on Barkley this season but if the OL stabilizes a bit more I think we will see a very good QB in Jones. We'll see.. we will know one way or the other that's for sure. And GT I know you are glass half empty on it but thanks for at least having a reasonable discussion.
Hey Johnny good post. I have same thoughts and views actually.
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In comment 15214026 Go Terps said:
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We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
For sure. Although IIRC
Jones scored consistently over 20 pts in what looked like a better offense in his rookie year. Well, better suited offense to him anyway. We know the Giants were a mess for way too many years now. And I don't absolve Gettleman at all, but I really feel like we are on the upswing with Judge. And that goes for player eval, FA signing, drafting, and most importantly coaching. I still have my fears about Garrett and the OL, and I really don't think anyone should be counting on Barkley this season but if the OL stabilizes a bit more I think we will see a very good QB in Jones. We'll see.. we will know one way or the other that's for sure. And GT I know you are glass half empty on it but thanks for at least having a reasonable discussion.
Hey Johnny good post. I have same thoughts and views actually.
Holy... did we just have... a moment? lol
Judge is building a team for long term success. He gave clues of this in some of his comments last season. He said they made it hard on Jones. The rotating line.
The hope is the offense has more talent, the staff understands Jones strengths and liabilities and will create on offense that's tailored better to success for him. Long term those liabilities have to be addressed though or it will be exposed against the better defenses. They will find a better balance between the two I believe.
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In comment 15213962 Johnny5 said:
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Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
Because you happened to guess right? No fucking way.
Didn't think so.
So I'd Jones lights it up you get to say "i told you so" but of be doesn't you don't have to own up to being wrong.
Must be nice
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In comment 15214002 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 15213962 Johnny5 said:
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Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
Because you happened to guess right? No fucking way.
Didn't think so.
So I'd Jones lights it up you get to say "i told you so" but of be doesn't you don't have to own up to being wrong.
Must be nice
We're all just expressing our opinions here. Some of us will be right, others wrong. These things are highly random. Nobody needs an apology. But a nod in the direction of the guys who got it right, would be nice.
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In comment 15214070 Johnny5 said:
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In comment 15214026 Go Terps said:
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We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
For sure. Although IIRC
Jones scored consistently over 20 pts in what looked like a better offense in his rookie year. Well, better suited offense to him anyway. We know the Giants were a mess for way too many years now. And I don't absolve Gettleman at all, but I really feel like we are on the upswing with Judge. And that goes for player eval, FA signing, drafting, and most importantly coaching. I still have my fears about Garrett and the OL, and I really don't think anyone should be counting on Barkley this season but if the OL stabilizes a bit more I think we will see a very good QB in Jones. We'll see.. we will know one way or the other that's for sure. And GT I know you are glass half empty on it but thanks for at least having a reasonable discussion.
Hey Johnny good post. I have same thoughts and views actually.
Holy... did we just have... a moment? lol
Sure. Look forward to more good posts...
Let’s hope we can talk about his entire career after 2021.
Pulling big for Jones to be the guy. It will suck looking for another QB so soon. I hope he surprises everybody...
actually i think it is more likely there will be something conclusive. Most QBs in his spot either make it or don't. Trubisky, Mariota, Osweiler, Winston, come to mind as QBs that failed. Carr and Cousins come to mind as a QBs that have sort of succeeded, though they are probably not elite.
I still wouldn't feel good. The AY/A was very low (6.46), indicating (along with the low points/game) a general lack of effectiveness. It was the same way at Duke, too...
We were told he was not the most physically talented, but as polished and NFL ready as a college prospect could be. That wasn't the case. He really had a hard time reading the game in 2019, and that showed again in 2020.
I keep coming back to Sy's scouting report: "There isn't a quick mind here."
Jones has fatal flaws to his game (poor pocket presence, slow loopy release, inability to read defenses pre and post snap) that you don't go to the NFL to fix.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
Because you happened to guess right? No fucking way.
Didn't think so.
So I'd Jones lights it up you get to say "i told you so" but of be doesn't you don't have to own up to being wrong.
Must be nice
We're all just expressing our opinions here. Some of us will be right, others wrong. These things are highly random. Nobody needs an apology. But a nod in the direction of the guys who got it right, would be nice.
Agree with that. I'm not arrogant enough about my football knowledge to throw it in other peoples faces when I'm right about these kinds of things. I would be happy to give anyone a nod if there predictions are accurate and hopefully you guys will do the same.
Look I think for the most part we are all somewhere slightly left or right of center on Jones. I am one of the more optimistic ones, but I don't claim that I absolutely know better. It's really just the absolutes that he is not the guy, I mean I am fine with that opinion but the fighting about it in absolutes is what I guess drives me a little nutty.
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And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
Because you happened to guess right? No fucking way.
Didn't think so.
So I'd Jones lights it up you get to say "i told you so" but of be doesn't you don't have to own up to being wrong.
Must be nice
We're all just expressing our opinions here. Some of us will be right, others wrong. These things are highly random. Nobody needs an apology. But a nod in the direction of the guys who got it right, would be nice.
Agree with that. I'm not arrogant enough about my football knowledge to throw it in other peoples faces when I'm right about these kinds of things. I would be happy to give anyone a nod if there predictions are accurate and hopefully you guys will do the same.
Look I think for the most part we are all somewhere slightly left or right of center on Jones. I am one of the more optimistic ones, but I don't claim that I absolutely know better. It's really just the absolutes that he is not the guy, I mean I am fine with that opinion but the fighting about it in absolutes is what I guess drives me a little nutty.
Yes. And even the people who *know* are just making a better educated guess. There's no real science to this. Or in my opinion, any real art. It is subject to probabilities.
"Poor pocket presence"?? He had one of the highest completion % of QB's under duress
"Slow loopy release"?? I know you tried to show a still picture of him holding the ball low which was a ridiculous attempt to say his mechanics are poor, but his release has been called a strength. Just listen to some of what Bobby Skinner says.
"Inability to read defenses pre and post snap"?? Do you have anything to back up this "fatal flaw"?
You really just seemingly throw shit against the wall with Jones. At first, it was serially reciting his stats. Now, you're just creating things out of thin air.
Again the question at hand is - "Why"??
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
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Again, the question is why?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
So you're saying Gettleman did a bad job putting the roster together. See, we can agree on something.
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Jones has fatal flaws to his game (poor pocket presence, slow loopy release, inability to read defenses pre and post snap) that you don't go to the NFL to fix.
"Poor pocket presence"?? He had one of the highest completion % of QB's under duress
"Slow loopy release"?? I know you tried to show a still picture of him holding the ball low which was a ridiculous attempt to say his mechanics are poor, but his release has been called a strength. Just listen to some of what Bobby Skinner says.
"Inability to read defenses pre and post snap"?? Do you have anything to back up this "fatal flaw"?
You really just seemingly throw shit against the wall with Jones. At first, it was serially reciting his stats. Now, you're just creating things out of thin air.
Again the question at hand is - "Why"??
well i would love to see your link for that high comp pct under duress. Did it come at the cost of Y/A? I searched for this stat and can't find it. It is an exotic stat to be sure, based on subjective viewing, something you have criticized PFF for doing.
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In comment 15214226 Jimmy Googs said:
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Again, the question is why?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
So you're saying Gettleman did a bad job putting the roster together. See, we can agree on something.
I actually have been saying that for awhile which makes it humorous when I'm called a Gettleman supporter.
There's a difference between being a Gettleman supporter and a person who rails against Terrible Hot Takes. Hard to see the difference when you are full of them.
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Again, the question is why?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
But why does Jones have a poor OL and poor WRs? Sure, Barkley got hurt but that’s what happens to a lot of RBs. Surely this isn’t the first RB to get injured and they have backups to step up. And in fact Gallman and the others did reasonably well.
Why fmic..why didn’t Jones’ strengths show through? And why aren’t those other offensive players better? Why?
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In comment 15214230 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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In comment 15214226 Jimmy Googs said:
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Again, the question is why?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
So you're saying Gettleman did a bad job putting the roster together. See, we can agree on something.
I actually have been saying that for awhile which makes it humorous when I'm called a Gettleman supporter.
There's a difference between being a Gettleman supporter and a person who rails against Terrible Hot Takes. Hard to see the difference when you are full of them.
You’ve been saying Gettleman did a bad job??
Hold on...the site must not be working correctly. It’s actually changing your posts when you hit Submit...
I'm skeptical/down on Jones but I can easily see a scenario where he puts up above-average numbers this year. I think Garrett's offense was awful for what Jones does well.
I've watched too much Darnold for a Giants fan the past three years - I think Jones is easily better. I see more potential in Jones than I've ever seen in Darnold.
I think you are onto something with your first point. Jones flashed more in '19 and seemed to make more big plays. Aside from the big run versus Philly, I really can't recall any signature plays for Jones in '20. So if the seasons were flipped, the mood around here might indeed be more bullish.
We differ on Garrett. He's really setting up to be a fall guy. You don't call the gem he called against Tampa last year and say he doesn't what he's doing. So I'm putting the pullback with the offense in '20 in this order (1) Jones, (2) OL/Barkley injury and (3) new offense for everyone.
Darnold is a weird one for me. The "seeing ghosts" comment was a horrible red flag. But he does make some very high level throws that are indicative of some high level ability. And, of course, the Jet factor messes up a fair evaluation as well. The best thing that could happen for him is that he gets a new opportunity in Carolina.
Or continue to play the fool.
Your choice.
Shurmur was a bad hire. And most of his staff was, awful. It's kind of a tie for me between him and MacAdoo on level of suck... lol
I am bullish enough on what I have seen of Judge and Jones, as well as how FA agency has been going. If we have a good draft I fell that we are going to have a good season. We certainly shall see.
Right. So what about Ryan Tannenhill? What about Dak Prescott and how he went from merely productive and one that didn't screw things up (2016 -17) to insanely productive and indispensable (2019 and 2020 prior to injury) or how about someone like Mayfield? Didn't look so good in year 2 did he. Year 3 he's the cat's pajamas again. Are you going to tell me that Bills fans haven't gone from liking a player to going full bloom love for Josh Allen from years 1-2 to year 3-4? Really.
Conversely, what about the young up starts that turn into chicken shit by year 3-4? it goes both ways. The first 3-4 years of a QBs lifeline can be wacky, to say the least.
I give up. Friggin exhausting and not worth the time. Say with a straight face that every QB is a finished product after 2 years and anyone with a clue will laugh you out of the room.
Are you sure about that Dak comment? He was 23/4 TD/INT in his first year at 77 QBR. Slight pullback to a 70 QBR his sophomore year (22/13). But those two years crush Jones's first two. I mean, it's not even close. Futhermore, Dak was a 4th round draft choice, not the 6th pick.
I sort of get Tannehill, but at least he flipped the script on TD/INTs year over year. First year, he was 12/13, but improved to 24/17 in his second year and kept his YPA around the same 6.7/8.
What about Mayfield? He threw 49 TDs passes his first two years combined and had a very healthy YPA over 7 each year (did pull back in year two). His QBRs aren't impressive but at least he was scoring points.
We've been down this path before with Josh Allen. He has improved every year with this third year the peak. But he was scoring points and was a HUGE asset in the run game. In his first two years, he scored 17 rushing TDs. And added 7 more in '20. While he's been erratic throwing, that running ability has to be included.
I'm not saying Jones can't improve. But I just don't feel great about it because his effort was so dull and listless in '20.
It was posted here a couple of days ago(not by me). When I get a chance to find it, I'll link it. Or you can take some initiative and find it on your own.
It has been posted along with his completion % on downfield throws.
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In comment 15214226 Jimmy Googs said:
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Again, the question is why?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
So you're saying Gettleman did a bad job putting the roster together. See, we can agree on something.
Well, at one point he had the best WR in football who hit every one of the superlatives your require, and you bitched Gettleman out for building a roster with him on it.
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Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
See this is exactly why I firmly believe that on this site it is more important to some to be proven correct than if the team does well
13
Or continue to play the fool.
Your choice.
Send any post you would like of you saying DG is doing a bad job. Any post.
Comic relief has now lost all sense of reality...
All of us are sick of watching trash football. I, for one, hope DJ lights it up this fall & we make the playoffs. That's what's most important to me.
All of us are sick of watching trash football. I, for one, hope DJ lights it up this fall & we make the playoffs. That's what's most important to me.
It's just weak sauce to root against a guy because you have some agenda. We should all want every Giant to succeed no?
Mayfield has also had a lot more talent. Cleveland may have had the best OL in the league yet they were awfully gun shy about throwing downfield.
I like Allen. I’ll like him better if does it again with a reloaded Pats team and improved Dolphins and maybe the Jets as well. He has a lot more to prove imo.
I am definitely concerned with Jones but he has had a very poor supporting cast and with two offenses. We will learn a lot this year.
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In comment 15214226 Jimmy Googs said:
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Again, the question is why?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
But why does Jones have a poor OL and poor WRs? Sure, Barkley got hurt but that’s what happens to a lot of RBs. Surely this isn’t the first RB to get injured and they have backups to step up. And in fact Gallman and the others did reasonably well.
Why fmic..why didn’t Jones’ strengths show through? And why aren’t those other offensive players better? Why?
Why?
All of us are sick of watching trash football. I, for one, hope DJ lights it up this fall & we make the playoffs. That's what's most important to me.
It's pretty clear. In fact I noticed when we signed Golladay there was a subluminal dash of what I'd call disappointment in some comments because they subconsciously realize there is a very good possibility he didn't throw many TDs last year because our offense as a whole was trash. I can't believe people spend a ton of time here in the offseason tbh, how many times can you rehash the same damn convo?
And amazingly, most of this conversation ha nothing to do with Sam Darnold
Where’s the secret hatred for Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, Lawrence, and Gates?
Is it a ruse to put you guys off our trail, or might it be the guys who play and perform consistently are appreciated?
Where’s the secret hatred for Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, Lawrence, and Gates?
Is it a ruse to put you guys off our trail, or might it be the guys who play and perform consistently are appreciated?
I don’t think that you’re one of the posters they are referring to. You’re typically pretty reasonable and balanced. So it’s kind of weird that you used “Is it a ruse to put you guys off OUR trail..”. Who”s “OUR”?
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In comment 15214230 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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In comment 15214226 Jimmy Googs said:
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Again, the question is why?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
So you're saying Gettleman did a bad job putting the roster together. See, we can agree on something.
I actually have been saying that for awhile which makes it humorous when I'm called a Gettleman supporter.
.
Still waiting for all these remarks where you posted DG put together a bad roster.
Everybody will laugh at this ruse you have put on for years that you really weren’t a DG supporter. You really fooled us.
Waiting...
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
Terps, the one key factor you don't mention is how when it comes down to the playoffs Jackson stinks.
He has a 56% completion rate, 3 TD passes, 5 INTs, 1 rushing TD, 5 fumbles, and 1-2 in the playoffs. So while his regular season stats look good, in the real meaningful games he has been putrid
Mayfield has also had a lot more talent. Cleveland may have had the best OL in the league yet they were awfully gun shy about throwing downfield.
I like Allen. I’ll like him better if does it again with a reloaded Pats team and improved Dolphins and maybe the Jets as well. He has a lot more to prove imo.
I am definitely concerned with Jones but he has had a very poor supporting cast and with two offenses. We will learn a lot this year.
Re: Dak. It is certainly true he stepped into a more positive situation. But QBR attempts to smooth that out by taking into account the situation of the each play - time to throw, the depth of the pass, the accuracy of the pass, if the QB ran the ball, quality of the opponent, etc. It's not a flawless approach, but I think it's one of the more reliable metric (YPA, too). So for Dak to produce 70+ QBRs in his first two years was pretty damn impressive.
I've never been a Mayfield guy. I thought he had bust written all over him. And as the number one pick he's under a lot more pressure. But he has impressed me. In his rookie year he finished 10th in YPA at 7.7, so he was going down field. And he's been 7+ in YPA for all three years. On the other hand, his QBR was in the 50s until it popped this year with a 72. So he's a mixed bag.
I thought Allen was tremendous this past year, and too many posters just don't get his progression right. He's been on the ascent from YR1. But he wasn't impressive in the playoffs this year so I think that is something to keep an eye on.
With the new additions, what are you expectations for Jones this year?
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This covert secret agenda of hating players because Gettleman acquired them is the funniest thing I’ve read on BBI in years.
Where’s the secret hatred for Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, Lawrence, and Gates?
Is it a ruse to put you guys off our trail, or might it be the guys who play and perform consistently are appreciated?
I don’t think that you’re one of the posters they are referring to. You’re typically pretty reasonable and balanced. So it’s kind of weird that you used “Is it a ruse to put you guys off OUR trail..”. Who”s “OUR”?
Thanks BBS, back at you.
From time-to-time me criticizing players has been bucketed under the mysterious motives category by a certain poster : )
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In comment 15213962 Johnny5 said:
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Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
See this is exactly why I firmly believe that on this site it is more important to some to be proven correct than if the team does well
If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
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We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
Terps, the one key factor you don't mention is how when it comes down to the playoffs Jackson stinks.
He has a 56% completion rate, 3 TD passes, 5 INTs, 1 rushing TD, 5 fumbles, and 1-2 in the playoffs. So while his regular season stats look good, in the real meaningful games he has been putrid
So if 4 games means Jackson sucks, can we use 26 games to ascertain that Jones REALLY sucks?
If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
That's an interesting point in your second paragraph. There is quite a bit of "score keeping" that goes on at BBI and it's mostly by those who find any criticism of the Giants to be an act of treason. If posters don't see the Giants doing well, despite reasoned analysis, they are viewed in the same light as investors shorting stocks. And unfortunately labeled as rooting against the team.
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If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
That's an interesting point in your second paragraph. There is quite a bit of "score keeping" that goes on at BBI and it's mostly by those who find any criticism of the Giants to be an act of treason. If posters don't see the Giants doing well, despite reasoned analysis, they are viewed in the same light as investors shorting stocks. And unfortunately labeled as rooting against the team.
You describe it in a colorful way. I'd love to do a psych paper on this mentality.
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If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
That's an interesting point in your second paragraph. There is quite a bit of "score keeping" that goes on at BBI and it's mostly by those who find any criticism of the Giants to be an act of treason. If posters don't see the Giants doing well, despite reasoned analysis, they are viewed in the same light as investors shorting stocks. And unfortunately labeled as rooting against the team.
I can never figure out if you model yourself after Eddie Haskell or if it’s the other way around.
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I think people would be more excited about Jones if his first and second seasons were reversed.
I'm skeptical/down on Jones but I can easily see a scenario where he puts up above-average numbers this year. I think Garrett's offense was awful for what Jones does well.
I've watched too much Darnold for a Giants fan the past three years - I think Jones is easily better. I see more potential in Jones than I've ever seen in Darnold.
I think you are onto something with your first point. Jones flashed more in '19 and seemed to make more big plays. Aside from the big run versus Philly, I really can't recall any signature plays for Jones in '20. So if the seasons were flipped, the mood around here might indeed be more bullish.
We differ on Garrett. He's really setting up to be a fall guy. You don't call the gem he called against Tampa last year and say he doesn't what he's doing. So I'm putting the pullback with the offense in '20 in this order (1) Jones, (2) OL/Barkley injury and (3) new offense for everyone.
Darnold is a weird one for me. The "seeing ghosts" comment was a horrible red flag. But he does make some very high level throws that are indicative of some high level ability. And, of course, the Jet factor messes up a fair evaluation as well. The best thing that could happen for him is that he gets a new opportunity in Carolina.
I don't think Garrett is incompetent. And I should have been more clear, it looked to me like Garrett deviated from offenses he had in Dallas. I think Jones is always going to be a bit of a turnover machine and that Garrett's offense was 'game manager-esque' for the QB. That's not what Jones does well and I don't think he'll ever do it well. I abhor making the Eli comparisons, but Eli always turned the ball over a lot as well. Jones throws a good deep ball. Can run but doesn't make the seamless transition to running that Jackson/Wilson/Murray do. There's tools to work with.
I can see a case where the OL is near average and Jones is able to put it together with his improved weapons. I say this as someone who thinks Jones really, really sucked last year (caveats be damned, no one thinks he had good weapons, lol).
If you are a fan/poster that only wants to see optimistic thoughts or even balanced thoughts then you are on the wrong site. This board brings it all, so expect it. If you want to fight it...fine. But that is a silly battle because you know how that likely ends.
Post your opinion. Debate or even argue others. But to show such disdain in others that you have to resort to name calling, bullying, or ridiculing is simply telling us all how bad you are at even being a simple poster. I can make you seem like comic relief every day, but you actually do a pretty good job all by yourself...
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In comment 15214026 Go Terps said:
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We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
Terps, the one key factor you don't mention is how when it comes down to the playoffs Jackson stinks.
He has a 56% completion rate, 3 TD passes, 5 INTs, 1 rushing TD, 5 fumbles, and 1-2 in the playoffs. So while his regular season stats look good, in the real meaningful games he has been putrid
So if 4 games means Jackson sucks, can we use 26 games to ascertain that Jones REALLY sucks?
They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
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In comment 15214002 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 15213962 Johnny5 said:
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Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
See this is exactly why I firmly believe that on this site it is more important to some to be proven correct than if the team does well
If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
Are you looking for an apology or a Giants season of progress?
See the problem with your take is that there are a few on here looking for the former more than the latter, to the point where even if there is progress the negative will be seized on regardless.
We both know the answer to that
I'd rather have a guy who gets me to the playoffs than a guy who is 8-18. Jones hasn't even beaten a winning team, let alone been to the playoffs.
And for the record I'm not rooting for Jones to fail. However, I do acknowledge that Jones wasn't drafted by Judge. Jones was drafted through the Gettleman's flawed methodology...the very methodology that has ALL of us relieved that Judge seems to be gaining power in personnel decisions.
I am rooting for Jones to succeed. But I'm also rooting for the Giants to be open to the possibility (in my mind, the strong likelihood) that that is not going to happen.
Rooting for Jones to be good isn't going to make him good.
7-6, 19TD/13INT, 6.9YPA — his offense struggled to score points.
Media, fans, etc. looked at the mediocre line, lack of fire power at the skill positions, a few injuries — pretty good chance he turns it around in year 3, right?
Moral of the story, there’s no guarantee. Sometimes it doesn’t work. Good to keep your eyes wide open as an organization, and not assume much.
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They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
I'd rather have a guy who gets me to the playoffs than a guy who is 8-18. Jones hasn't even beaten a winning team, let alone been to the playoffs.
And for the record I'm not rooting for Jones to fail. However, I do acknowledge that Jones wasn't drafted by Judge. Jones was drafted through the Gettleman's flawed methodology...the very methodology that has ALL of us relieved that Judge seems to be gaining power in personnel decisions.
I am rooting for Jones to succeed. But I'm also rooting for the Giants to be open to the possibility (in my mind, the strong likelihood) that that is not going to happen.
Rooting for Jones to be good isn't going to make him good.
Ok, answer this honestly, how would you rate Jacksons surrounding cast vs Jones surrounding cast? We both know that Jacksons "team" is a lot better than what Jones had
And getting to the playoffs and shitting the bed is not what any fan wants out of their QB. Holy shit he was the QB of a 14-2 team and got his ass kicked at home in their very first playoff game. His stats in the playoffs are every bit as bad if not worse than Daniel Jones stats as far as TO's go in the playoffs and that's not even debatable
So Jackson has performed as poorly in four playoff games as Jones has in his 26 career starts?
Is that supposed to make us feel better about Jones?
So Jackson has performed as poorly in four playoff games as Jones has in his 26 career starts?
Is that supposed to make us feel better about Jones?
Terps, you never answered my point about the surrounding cast.
And if you can't acknowledge the fact that in his most important games Jackson chokes like he's eaten a tortilla sideways then you're not being completely straight with regards to your take on him.
You want to use a 2-year QB's stats on a team with horrid personal. Ignore all the key injuries to his playmakers. Brush off his O-Line debacle. While at the same time claiming the second coming of Jesus during the regular season should be given a mulligan for his despicable postseason play, is disingenuous at best.
It must be since you have nothing to counter it
This is a facet of Jones game that we really haven’t talked much about. But I think it’s fair to say we haven’t seen Jones make anyone on the offense better than we expected them to be. And with every facet of the offense failing, it’s certainly fair to wonder if that’s because the most important piece of the unit isn’t up to the task. Since this is a thread about Darnold it’s probably fair to say that about him too. It’ll be an interesting season for both QBs. Sink or swim boys. Sink or swim.
When DSlay was a rookie, Jones made him look pretty good. He sure tried to make Engram a weapon.
Is he making his OLine look bad? OK, there are times his internal clock needs to speed up but he's generally been under duress within 2 seconds.
How has DJones made his supporting cast look worse than they actually are?
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In comment 15214268 montanagiant said:
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In comment 15214002 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 15213962 Johnny5 said:
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Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
See this is exactly why I firmly believe that on this site it is more important to some to be proven correct than if the team does well
If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
Are you looking for an apology or a Giants season of progress?
See the problem with your take is that there are a few on here looking for the former more than the latter, to the point where even if there is progress the negative will be seized on regardless.
My initial reply was to a post saying he wants to "shove [Jones being the guy] in" our faces.
My point, which I believe has been proven, is that if DJ doesn't step up, there's not going to be posts saying "sorry for being trash towards you for the last 3 years, Terps/BW/etc"
The only difference between one "side" and what you accuse the other of is the results on the field, the motivation is the same.
I think Jones really needs confidence. He seems unsure in the pocket. Is he panicked? Confused? Overwhelmed? Who knows. Set your feet, make a sound decision and let it rip downfield or check it down. I have concerns with his ability to make the deep throws to the sideline that have to be on a line and where true arm talent shows its worth. He needs to protect himself. Availability is a big factor as a QB.
I think the Giants staff is committed to helping him more. Heavy run offense, better down/distance (which has been the biggest factor for like a decade) and simplifying reads at times. Hopefully having more success gets him to the point of just trusting his reads and letting it rip. I hope it works out.
What happened to Mahomes when under pressure up the middle.
What happened to Montana under pressure.
We saw Eli's timing fall apart post 2012 under time pressure.
But some how Jones is supposed to overcome the reality of QB play and block, catch and throw?
I'm not convinced by Jones yet but that's because I don't know yet. I don't get many of the so called posts of obvious expertise and certainty.
And I don't see any apologies for accidentally being right or wrong or in between.
And I don't see guys who value being right over being balanced and waiting to see it play out. I see guys who love to argue more than be right, wise, open or balanced.
But that's just one person's opinion and nothing more
1) Jones' pocket movement skills are subpar, and not just for a starter, but for any competent QB with an NFL roster spot. He makes the OL look worse than it is because of both bad instincts and the fact that he hasn't responded to the years of training he has received. Note how much better the OL looked in the Seattle and Cleveland games with McCoy starting. The opposition registered 2.5 sacks across the two games - and the Browns D is good - for a sack rate of about 5% of drop backs. Jones averaged just under 10% in terms of sack rate as % of pass attempts. Both the eye test and the stats shows that McCoy - a well-trained pocket QB - really cut down on the level of pressure. Jones makes his OL look worse than they are.
2) Jones' timing is all off. I started paying attention to that after the controversy about that blown goal line pass where many posters thought Jones delivered the ball late. It's absolutely a flaw in Jones' game. Watch the footage - he is constantly delivering the ball a fraction of a second late. With the speed of NFL's secondary, that changes a run after catch situation into a contested catch or zero yards after reception situation. I think there are multiple causes behind Jones' problems in this area, which have all been covered, so fixing them isn't just a matter of improving in one area, it involves multiple fundamental changes.
3) Jones isn't a particularly accurate passer. He has his moments, but there are a fair number of passes that, even if they are recorded as on target in the advanced stats, sure don't make it easy on the receiver. Looked at statistically, though, Jones is not a plus-accuracy QB like Mahomes. That also needs work.
Wow, I am a Jones pessimist but putting together that list convinces me there are so many things he needs to dramatically improve on that the problems will be unsurmountable. He is simply not a good football player right now. Someone like Darius Slayton is just a much better player than Jones - so I get sensitive about all this blaming the skill players stuff.
Can't agree with that. How many passes did he put right in the hands or the numbers of Evan Engram only for him to drop or tip off his fingers and end up as an INT? The supporting cast has been brutal for the most part.
I could not separate and correlate Jones from the growing pains in front of him. Times when Thomas, Zeitler, Gates or Hernandez or lemieux didn't get it fluctuate during the season with times Jones was just coming back or times when Shepard or Tate or Engram or Stayton or Barkley was not there physically or mentally.
It was a mess and important conclusions don't often come from staring at a bowl of angel hair pasta.
I agree Jones was sometimes an unindicted co conspirator in the mess but I can't claim enough isolated clear views to jump to conclusions like "he stinks" and "time to move on now"
Did the guy execute well on junky plans? Or execute poorly possibly winning strategies?
I'm going to suspect the former
"Well, if it ain't a mess it will do until the real mess gets here"
There's actually a psychological bias here - call it the "big man" syndrome where organizational failures are blamed on the supporting cast rather than the leader. It's good for me to be self-conscious about this bias and make sure I try to approach the situation analytically.
Did the guy execute well on junky plans? Or execute poorly possibly winning strategies?
I'm going to suspect the former
he famously botched some simple plays. The two point conversion at the end of the TB game comes to mind. excellent play design, awful throw. I'm not sure why you would blame Garrett, over Jones.
I agree with Bill that I don't see DJ as the no brainer "it's all his fault" guy.
I am really looking forward to 2021 because I have seen enough to know that Jones has all of the tangibles. Hopefully the processing improves, along with the personnel around him.
I do agree he is not yet as well trained or sound on the basics as the NYG or Cutcliffe cult wishes us to accept as a truism.
My initial reply was to a post saying he wants to "shove [Jones being the guy] in" our faces.
My point, which I believe has been proven, is that if DJ doesn't step up, there's not going to be posts saying "sorry for being trash towards you for the last 3 years, Terps/BW/etc"
The only difference between one "side" and what you accuse the other of is the results on the field, the motivation is the same.
You clearly did not fully read my post and are basing what you are saying off of incorrect assumptions. This is EXACTLY what I said:
"with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it MAKES ME WANT HIM to shove it in your faces more and more."
Quote:
My initial reply was to a post saying he wants to "shove [Jones being the guy] in" our faces.
My point, which I believe has been proven, is that if DJ doesn't step up, there's not going to be posts saying "sorry for being trash towards you for the last 3 years, Terps/BW/etc"
The only difference between one "side" and what you accuse the other of is the results on the field, the motivation is the same.
You clearly did not fully read my post and are basing what you are saying off of incorrect assumptions. This is EXACTLY what I said:
"with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it MAKES ME WANT HIM to shove it in your faces more and more."
Multiple times
And I read it wrong every single time. My apologies.
There's actually a psychological bias here - call it the "big man" syndrome where organizational failures are blamed on the supporting cast rather than the leader. It's good for me to be self-conscious about this bias and make sure I try to approach the situation analytically.
Those were good posts Cosmic, but I think the only part people might disagree with was how much of it was Jones vs. OL or skill players. I think we all see what you see to a degree, for sure which is why everyone has questions. Being optimistic about incremental improvement in blocking, skill position, and scheme helping Jones also improve incrementally is going to pay huge dividends (if it happens). We know the skill have been upgraded, but I'm still concerned with OL, Scheme and RB. But for sure I think every one of us can agree he has to show that he is better this year. I believe he was doing that right before the hamstring injury... but we shall see.
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Do I know what the hell Garrets offensive approach really was before or after the season and injuries.
Did the guy execute well on junky plans? Or execute poorly possibly winning strategies?
I'm going to suspect the former
he famously botched some simple plays. The two point conversion at the end of the TB game comes to mind. excellent play design, awful throw. I'm not sure why you would blame Garrett, over Jones.
I agree but you are taking his worst game as a pro for an example. He has not ever been perfect but he was clearly having a BAD game that day. He was really off.
Multiple times
And I read it wrong every single time. My apologies.
Hey no sweat brother. Honestly I think this OP about Sam Darnold has brought forth the best reasonable discussion we have ever had about Jones on this site... lol
I think you are onto something with your first point. Jones flashed more in '19 and seemed to make more big plays. Aside from the big run versus Philly, I really can't recall any signature plays for Jones in '20. So if the seasons were flipped, the mood around here might indeed be more bullish.
We differ on Garrett. He's really setting up to be a fall guy. You don't call the gem he called against Tampa last year and say he doesn't what he's doing. So I'm putting the pullback with the offense in '20 in this order (1) Jones, (2) OL/Barkley injury and (3) new offense for everyone.
Darnold is a weird one for me. The "seeing ghosts" comment was a horrible red flag. But he does make some very high level throws that are indicative of some high level ability. And, of course, the Jet factor messes up a fair evaluation as well. The best thing that could happen for him is that he gets a new opportunity in Carolina.
I don't think Garrett is incompetent. And I should have been more clear, it looked to me like Garrett deviated from offenses he had in Dallas. I think Jones is always going to be a bit of a turnover machine and that Garrett's offense was 'game manager-esque' for the QB. That's not what Jones does well and I don't think he'll ever do it well. I abhor making the Eli comparisons, but Eli always turned the ball over a lot as well. Jones throws a good deep ball. Can run but doesn't make the seamless transition to running that Jackson/Wilson/Murray do. There's tools to work with.
I can see a case where the OL is near average and Jones is able to put it together with his improved weapons. I say this as someone who thinks Jones really, really sucked last year (caveats be damned, no one thinks he had good weapons, lol).
I'm with you on the Eli comp. It won't end but it should.
On the turnovers, I try not to dwell on that. It's a problem, but the bigger problem/challenge is getting the team to score more points. That's the job description. There are going to be turnovers - it's the nature of the game - but a lot of that can be offset with TDs.
It's a big year for Garrett, too, right. Probably more than Jones because if the offense doesn't shine than Garrett is very likely gone before Jones. But he's got more toys to work with and implement more of his offense. And I have a feeling he's going to put these players in the best place to succeed.
I think Jones really needs confidence. He seems unsure in the pocket. Is he panicked? Confused? Overwhelmed? Who knows. Set your feet, make a sound decision and let it rip downfield or check it down. I have concerns with his ability to make the deep throws to the sideline that have to be on a line and where true arm talent shows its worth. He needs to protect himself. Availability is a big factor as a QB.
Yeah, a QB without confidence is a QB without a job in the NFL. I don't think that's it. I think it's more of what Sy identified in the pre-draft process - indecision. And while that is troublesome, I do believe that can be coached.
I think it all gets back to Jones being slow in his processing. He threw a TD last season, it was a goal to go and I can’t remember the team or who he tossed the TD to but it was like a slow motion TD. The receiver was so open and Jones was so late with the throw that I yelling at the TV to throw the ball. Look, I know that doesn’t necessarily mean anything, maybe the open guy was his last read on the backside of the play. Idk. And hey, it was a TD. But my point is that the slowness is there even when he’s doing the right thing. I’ve seen every snap Jones has taken and I usually come away with the same thought which is that he’s got a clock that seems like it’s just a bit off. You see it when he runs and gets down just a second too late which results in a bone crushing hit. You see it when he moves too late in the pocket where he isn’t usually moving into pressure (that he doesn’t see) but he’s just moving out of pressure too late. Maybe that’s why he’s fumbling so much? You see it in his throws when he forces something into coverage you know he’s seeing. Idk, it isn’t always there because sometimes he makes a wow throw or a good solid routine play. But, I remember reading a lot of the pre draft reports (I read them after he was drafted) and they talked about his forcing throws and turning the ball over and I’m pretty sure his processing speed was questioned by several scouts. Btw, these were all reasons, at a second level (at best) football program which graded Jones out as a second or third round QB2.
A lot of Jones flaws in college were attributed to the lack of talent on his team. Well, maybe that lack of talent has followed Jones to the NFL? Or maybe it’s him? Anyway, we’ll root for him to turn it around!
They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
Problem with that is that I can think of one, only one, QB that fits the latter. Which is why I cringe when people try to make comparisons between Jones and Eli. Eli was sui generis.
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I think Jones really needs confidence. He seems unsure in the pocket. Is he panicked? Confused? Overwhelmed? Who knows. Set your feet, make a sound decision and let it rip downfield or check it down. I have concerns with his ability to make the deep throws to the sideline that have to be on a line and where true arm talent shows its worth. He needs to protect himself. Availability is a big factor as a QB.
Yeah, a QB without confidence is a QB without a job in the NFL. I don't think that's it. I think it's more of what Sy identified in the pre-draft process - indecision. And while that is troublesome, I do believe that can be coached.
If it truly is indecision, then most of that is an experience, study and recognize the defense, sort of thing which is developmental and may as much a product of where you played in college as anything else.
Lots of really bad emoting. Certainly can't call it thinking. The discipline to ignore seems to get a workout every week.
Did make me hope the gods of the draft and secondary Fa cough up a wr-ol early and a power running back after that. Despite preferring to take the defense to the next level, the thread helped me see what an entangled mess the offense is in. OR was in.
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I think Jones really needs confidence. He seems unsure in the pocket. Is he panicked? Confused? Overwhelmed? Who knows. Set your feet, make a sound decision and let it rip downfield or check it down. I have concerns with his ability to make the deep throws to the sideline that have to be on a line and where true arm talent shows its worth. He needs to protect himself. Availability is a big factor as a QB.
Yeah, a QB without confidence is a QB without a job in the NFL. I don't think that's it. I think it's more of what Sy identified in the pre-draft process - indecision. And while that is troublesome, I do believe that can be coached.
Decision making can be broken down into 4 fundamental steps:
Data
Analysis
Decide
Act
In sports especially this process happens in seconds or even fractions of a second. And as a QB this process has to happen twice, pre and post snap. So where in the process is DJ having trouble? Let's focus on post snap.
Data: who's open and who's not? This is what it is, and completely out of DJs control
Analysis: Now that he's looked at the field he has to calculate who he can make a pass to, should he run, etc. This is where recognition comes into play, because if he can recognize a situation for exams as "run" and doesn't need to think that allows him to decide sooner.
Decide: calculation is complete, which option is he going to throw to? Run? Take a sack?
Action: do it
Can thinking faster be coached? I'm not sure. Recognition can be though, a la Ted Williams and the numbers on the baseball. Obviously DJ was under pressure a lot so that compounds everything become he has even less time to go through this process.
Crash Davis
If you look at the numbers I posted above on Darnold's second season, in arguably a much worse situation, he was a more productive player. This is a great topic.
If you can't passionately debate how the quarterback is performing and comparing and contrasting him to his contemporaries, much of the fun of chatting football is lost.
This is a great thread and a great conversation.
LOL...pointing out his horrendous play in big games is exactly what needs to be discussed if someone is going to use him as an example vs Jones. Why should his Playoff games be off-limits?
Also, both Marino and Manning had much better Playoff stats than Jackson has with many more games to compare. In 18 playoff games, Marino had 32 TDs vs 24 Ints and a 77% QBR (9 points higher than Jacksons). Peyton has 40 TDs to 25 Ints over 27 playoff games and a QBR of 87.4%.
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They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
Problem with that is that I can think of one, only one, QB that fits the latter. Which is why I cringe when people try to make comparisons between Jones and Eli. Eli was sui generis.
Indeed he was!
I don't know if Jones is the answer or not but he hasn't had the resources to show us one way or the other. Yes he has to work on the Turnovers but many of those can be blamed on the receivers or the O-Line.
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In comment 15214412 montanagiant said:
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They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
Problem with that is that I can think of one, only one, QB that fits the latter. Which is why I cringe when people try to make comparisons between Jones and Eli. Eli was sui generis.
Indeed he was!
I don't know if Jones is the answer or not but he hasn't had the resources to show us one way or the other. Yes he has to work on the Turnovers but many of those can be blamed on the receivers or the O-Line.
Hit submit too soon.
He finally has a good #1 WR and SB back with the young O-line having some experience under them and making some real progress during the 2nd half of last season. The coach is sold on him so lets see what he does
Decision making can be broken down into 4 fundamental steps:
Data
Analysis
Decide
Act
In sports especially this process happens in seconds or even fractions of a second. And as a QB this process has to happen twice, pre and post snap. So where in the process is DJ having trouble? Let's focus on post snap.
Data: who's open and who's not? This is what it is, and completely out of DJs control
Analysis: Now that he's looked at the field he has to calculate who he can make a pass to, should he run, etc. This is where recognition comes into play, because if he can recognize a situation for exams as "run" and doesn't need to think that allows him to decide sooner.
Decide: calculation is complete, which option is he going to throw to? Run? Take a sack?
Action: do it
Can thinking faster be coached? I'm not sure. Recognition can be though, a la Ted Williams and the numbers on the baseball. Obviously DJ was under pressure a lot so that compounds everything become he has even less time to go through this process.
Wouldn't the analysis part come first?
It seems to me the "data" part is a baked into the analysis. If DJ is going through his reads quickly and properly, he should be able to decide who is open and in the best position to make a play...
If you look at the numbers I posted above on Darnold's second season, in arguably a much worse situation, he was a more productive player. This is a great topic.
If you can't passionately debate how the quarterback is performing and comparing and contrasting him to his contemporaries, much of the fun of chatting football is lost.
This is a great thread and a great conversation.
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
Quote:
I love these debates -- honestly.
If you look at the numbers I posted above on Darnold's second season, in arguably a much worse situation, he was a more productive player. This is a great topic.
If you can't passionately debate how the quarterback is performing and comparing and contrasting him to his contemporaries, much of the fun of chatting football is lost.
This is a great thread and a great conversation.
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
bw, I see your point but the same complaint can be applied to either side. Seriously, how many threads do you think have been made on BBI since the end of the 2020 season that slammed Jones that use the same tired arguments while not taking into account the variables that contributed to his stats?
It is no contest, I mean there are some on here that no matter the thread they somehow segue into a Jones rant. If he is not the guy we will know come this next season but holy shit let's at least hope for the best for the kid without the constant drumbeat of those who yearn to be proven right.
Quote:
They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
Problem with that is that I can think of one, only one, QB that fits the latter. Which is why I cringe when people try to make comparisons between Jones and Eli. Eli was sui generis.
Flacco was the other one. He was tremendous in the playoffs early in his career including a SB win.
Quote:
Decision making can be broken down into 4 fundamental steps:
Data
Analysis
Decide
Act
In sports especially this process happens in seconds or even fractions of a second. And as a QB this process has to happen twice, pre and post snap. So where in the process is DJ having trouble? Let's focus on post snap.
Data: who's open and who's not? This is what it is, and completely out of DJs control
Analysis: Now that he's looked at the field he has to calculate who he can make a pass to, should he run, etc. This is where recognition comes into play, because if he can recognize a situation for exams as "run" and doesn't need to think that allows him to decide sooner.
Decide: calculation is complete, which option is he going to throw to? Run? Take a sack?
Action: do it
Can thinking faster be coached? I'm not sure. Recognition can be though, a la Ted Williams and the numbers on the baseball. Obviously DJ was under pressure a lot so that compounds everything become he has even less time to go through this process.
Wouldn't the analysis part come first?
It seems to me the "data" part is a baked into the analysis. If DJ is going through his reads quickly and properly, he should be able to decide who is open and in the best position to make a play...
I'm not the one who invented the DADA processes lol, but to be able to make a decision you need something (data) to analyze, and not just saying "I'm going to do X" regardless of what the data is
But I’m failing to see anybody have their opinion swayed, or the conversation moving forward in any meaningful way. In fact, all I see are people doubling down on their original stances.
It’s dressed up wheel spinning.
What are u looking for anyway?
But I’m failing to see anybody have their opinion swayed, or the conversation moving forward in any meaningful way. In fact, all I see are people doubling down on their original stances.
It’s dressed up wheel spinning.
A "great conversation" that has nothing to do with Darnold!! Just another gathering of people looking to trash Jones and the GM.
But I’m failing to see anybody have their opinion swayed, or the conversation moving forward in any meaningful way. In fact, all I see are people doubling down on their original stances.
It’s dressed up wheel spinning.
Ha for sure, no one's opinion will change. I'm rooting like hell for the guy to have a great year and solidify himself as the guy, but I would guess that there will be some that will never accept him as the guy. Not really any different than Eli in that regard (Yep. I threw out another Eli comparo... lol). I feel like our take is the most logical for sure Britt.
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I love these debates -- honestly.
If you look at the numbers I posted above on Darnold's second season, in arguably a much worse situation, he was a more productive player. This is a great topic.
If you can't passionately debate how the quarterback is performing and comparing and contrasting him to his contemporaries, much of the fun of chatting football is lost.
This is a great thread and a great conversation.
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
I admittedly don't follow the Jets very closely. I was quite surprised when I looked up Darnold's second year numbers.
7-6 record, 62% completion, 19TD:13INT, 11 Fumbles.
The Jets really focused on improving their biggest perceived weakness, offensive line. And in the second year of the system, third year in the NFL, Darnold nose dived.
What I can’t concede is that the organization was incompetent in evaluating Jones the prospect. What I can’t concede is the Jones’ ceiling is already established. I can’t concede that Jones has shown zero indication in his skill set that he can ever be a successful starter in the NFL.
This will never be a great conversation until a very vocal minority here walk back some of those absolute statements.
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
bw, I see your point but the same complaint can be applied to either side. Seriously, how many threads do you think have been made on BBI since the end of the 2020 season that slammed Jones that use the same tired arguments while not taking into account the variables that contributed to his stats?
It is no contest, I mean there are some on here that no matter the thread they somehow segue into a Jones rant. If he is not the guy we will know come this next season but holy shit let's at least hope for the best for the kid without the constant drumbeat of those who yearn to be proven right.
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
If Jones is going to be our QB, that needs to happen this year. It’s time and the pressure is on. We will learn a lot about Jones this year.
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In comment 15215452 bw in dc said:
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
bw, I see your point but the same complaint can be applied to either side. Seriously, how many threads do you think have been made on BBI since the end of the 2020 season that slammed Jones that use the same tired arguments while not taking into account the variables that contributed to his stats?
It is no contest, I mean there are some on here that no matter the thread they somehow segue into a Jones rant. If he is not the guy we will know come this next season but holy shit let's at least hope for the best for the kid without the constant drumbeat of those who yearn to be proven right.
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
You call Jones a huge investment as the #6 overall pick and then flippantly praise the Jets for moving on from Darnold, who was #3 overall and an additional 3 2nd rounders to get there, for pennies on the dollar.
What in the world is going to happen next on this site...
Bw has been posting for several years that he viewed Jones as a 2nd round prospect. I was scoffing at his position until the middle of last season and now I understand it. I’m living and learning. When you draft a QB, that player has to have pro level field vision. If they don’t, you are just wasting your time. That’s why Jameis Winston, a player with awesome physical skills, is on the verge of being out if the league. And Jones has many deficiencies beyond field vision.
None of this is going to convince anyone. And it shouldn’t. We need to see what happens in September and October. But enough with the supporting cast criticism. Look how Colt McCoy was able to magically change the struggling Giants OL into a pretty decent pass blocking line. And McCoy is a career backup.
What I can’t concede is that the organization was incompetent in evaluating Jones the prospect. What I can’t concede is the Jones’ ceiling is already established. I can’t concede that Jones has shown zero indication in his skill set that he can ever be a successful starter in the NFL.
This will never be a great conversation until a very vocal minority here walk back some of those absolute statements.
Why do they have to walk them back?
Can’t they be heard just like anybody else. Did it really ruin your take on the thread with this many posts? You don’t have to agree nor like the way it is stated but it is still fair game to think that way.
Isn’t it?
I admittedly don't follow the Jets very closely. I was quite surprised when I looked up Darnold's second year numbers.
7-6 record, 62% completion, 19TD:13INT, 11 Fumbles.
The Jets really focused on improving their biggest perceived weakness, offensive line. And in the second year of the system, third year in the NFL, Darnold nose dived.
Yes, Darnold finished very strong in '19. The Jets finished the second half of that year 6-2. And Darnold was 13/4 TD/INT, 2 rushing TDs, QBR 64, 7.3 YPA. So there some green arrow for the Big Green.
I really don't know what happened in '20, but it looks like the Jets got off to the slow start and things just snowballed. Darnold pressed to make things happen and couldn't get it done.
The best thing that could happen to Darnold happened - a change of scenery. Now it's up to him and that Carolina staff to start the rehab.
Bw has been posting for several years that he viewed Jones as a 2nd round prospect. I was scoffing at his position until the middle of last season and now I understand it. I’m living and learning. When you draft a QB, that player has to have pro level field vision. If they don’t, you are just wasting your time. That’s why Jameis Winston, a player with awesome physical skills, is on the verge of being out if the league. And Jones has many deficiencies beyond field vision.
None of this is going to convince anyone. And it shouldn’t. We need to see what happens in September and October. But enough with the supporting cast criticism. Look how Colt McCoy was able to magically change the struggling Giants OL into a pretty decent pass blocking line. And McCoy is a career backup.
I hear what you are saying but the praise for Colt McCoy for that Seattle game is a bit... much. He was 13 of 22 for 105 yards with 1 TD and 1 INT. We won 17-12... I give him credit for managing the game but much of the credit for that win was on the defense and Patrick Graham. Jones was coming off of two pretty good weeks and then had the hamstring. We don't really know how that game would have played out with Jones healthy, it's quite possible we win with Jones behind center healthy.
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
You call Jones a huge investment as the #6 overall pick and then flippantly praise the Jets for moving on from Darnold, who was #3 overall and an additional 3 2nd rounders to get there, for pennies on the dollar.
I'm not flippantly praising. I'm praising the Jets for making a smart move. A divorce was needed for both sides. The Jets received a decent package and Darnold gets a chance to revitalize his career.
Hell, I was surprised the Jets got that much in return and have postulated the Giants could probably get a first for Jones this year...
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I’m willing that concede that there are concerns to Jones’ game. All of the concerns that have been laid out incessantly here are valid concerns about Jones the player.
What I can’t concede is that the organization was incompetent in evaluating Jones the prospect. What I can’t concede is the Jones’ ceiling is already established. I can’t concede that Jones has shown zero indication in his skill set that he can ever be a successful starter in the NFL.
This will never be a great conversation until a very vocal minority here walk back some of those absolute statements.
Why do they have to walk them back?
Can’t they be heard just like anybody else. Did it really ruin your take on the thread with this many posts? You don’t have to agree nor like the way it is stated but it is still fair game to think that way.
Isn’t it?
Then what’s the point in continuing a conversation? If you were having this conversation with a stranger at a bar eventually you’d either bow out or agree to disagree and change the subject. But then imagine that every new subject kept being reverted back to the original subject?
Unless you’re suggesting that is what people should do, bow out and let the other likeminded individuals continue to agree with each other.
But is that a conversation or an echo chamber?
That is why it is important to walk back absolute opinions stated as fact. Because if you can’t or won’t, there is no point in having the conversation anymore.
And yet you are waiting for them to take it back? And you still reply to their posts? What for?
Quote:
In comment 15215452 bw in dc said:
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
bw, I see your point but the same complaint can be applied to either side. Seriously, how many threads do you think have been made on BBI since the end of the 2020 season that slammed Jones that use the same tired arguments while not taking into account the variables that contributed to his stats?
It is no contest, I mean there are some on here that no matter the thread they somehow segue into a Jones rant. If he is not the guy we will know come this next season but holy shit let's at least hope for the best for the kid without the constant drumbeat of those who yearn to be proven right.
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
I would love to know that answer
Begging the question = assuming your conclusion in making the argument.
Quote:
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
You call Jones a huge investment as the #6 overall pick and then flippantly praise the Jets for moving on from Darnold, who was #3 overall and an additional 3 2nd rounders to get there, for pennies on the dollar.
I'm not flippantly praising. I'm praising the Jets for making a smart move. A divorce was needed for both sides. The Jets received a decent package and Darnold gets a chance to revitalize his career.
Hell, I was surprised the Jets got that much in return and have postulated the Giants could probably get a first for Jones this year...
Huh? How did they get decent value? They traded THREE 2nd round picks to get him, then trade him for a 6th this year and a 2nd and 4th next year. That's a terrible ROI.
Begging the question = assuming your conclusion in making the argument.
You really can't until he is at least given a somewhat average surrounding cast. Given the facts of what he had to work with last year, I am surprised at what he did accomplish
I'm not flippantly praising. I'm praising the Jets for making a smart move. A divorce was needed for both sides. The Jets received a decent package and Darnold gets a chance to revitalize his career.
Hell, I was surprised the Jets got that much in return and have postulated the Giants could probably get a first for Jones this year...
Huh? How did they get decent value? They traded THREE 2nd round picks to get him, then trade him for a 6th this year and a 2nd and 4th next year. That's a terrible ROI.
IMV, the Jets got decent value for Darnold because I didn't think they could unload him for more than a 3rd or 4th. So to get a multiple pick package with a 2nd, 4th and 6th seems like decent value for a QB who is obviously lost at the position right now...
I would love to know that answer
You're not going to get much push back that Gettleman constructed a deplorable offensive cast last year. I suspect if you go back to last offseason, you'll see plenty of chatter between BW, Terps, Googs, and me fearful of that point.
But answering your question directly: I expected Daniel Jones to have the same kind of season Sam Darnold in his second season -- with a shitty line, bad WRs, subpar running game, in his 2nd season in a new system.
Was Sam Darnold's situation so much better in his 2nd year than Jones last year?
I expected Jones to throw more touchdowns and win more games.
I was pleased he cut down his fumbles (still a WIP), and I was pleased he ran the ball well. I was also please he continued to throw the ball well downfield.
But situation aside, I didn't expect Jones to be so unproductive in so many games.
Look, I would have thought similarly until the Darnold trade.
Now give me some rope here as I try to make the case, but Jones has one less poor year than Darnold, he's the same age, has more potential as a dual threat, and looks better as a potential vertical thrower.
I don't think we are going to be in a position to get the only two worth getting at this point - Fields and Lance. Wilson and Lawrence are pegged at 1 and 2. And I have no interest in Mac Jones as a first rounder.
So it would take a move up. All academic, but I would call the Bears - they still have a big need at QB - and see if we can unload Jones for their 20th pick. And then package our 11th and this 20th to move up to a spot - Atlanta, Detroit? - to draft Fields or Lance. I think both are considerably more talented than Jones...
My opinion of Jones and what the market might think of him are two different situations.
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
I would love to know that answer
The expectations should have been high if you thought Jones had a good rookie year in '19. Which I am told - over and over - that he did (maybe not by you).
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of Jones that you seem to, bw, and then turn around and say you think we can get a first round pick for him. It does not compute, market or not.
My opinion of Jones and what the market might think of him are two different situations.
Well now we’re getting somewhere.
I would? I'm the same guy who praised the Cards for ditching Rosen (who I still like, btw) and the Jets for moving on from Darnold.
I'm obviously not sold on Jones, so I would the reasoning to cut ties from DJ and start fresh with a new QB.
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What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
I would love to know that answer
You're not going to get much push back that Gettleman constructed a deplorable offensive cast last year. I suspect if you go back to last offseason, you'll see plenty of chatter between BW, Terps, Googs, and me fearful of that point.
But answering your question directly: I expected Daniel Jones to have the same kind of season Sam Darnold in his second season -- with a shitty line, bad WRs, subpar running game, in his 2nd season in a new system.
Was Sam Darnold's situation so much better in his 2nd year than Jones last year?
I expected Jones to throw more touchdowns and win more games.
I was pleased he cut down his fumbles (still a WIP), and I was pleased he ran the ball well. I was also please he continued to throw the ball well downfield.
But situation aside, I didn't expect Jones to be so unproductive in so many games.
So you will just discount having a second year QB having a brand new offensive scheme and coaching staff? With no preseason? And many have said he was looking pretty good right before the hammy.
And round and round we go. This thread may never end... lol. And I think most people didn't think our offense looked very talented last year, at least after Saquon went down. I recall many discussions about not having a true #1 receiver and questions about Evan Engram.
If that happens, I'd draft him.
And that's what I would expect bw's take to be as well, for consistency, based on everything I've read here.
If that happens, I'd draft him.
If he fell into their laps that would be intriguing and I could certainly see the argument for it. Low risk, high reward, and may the best man win.
Also, you've been talking about college statistics.... Do you take into competition the talent level of the teams they were playing against?
JMU, while good (I follow them), isn't like playing Clemson.
Now, I believe, enough has been done to the roster and put a QB out there and not worry about him getting teed off on every drop back, and have some weapons to actually dump off to.
So yes, it wouldn't be ideal but I could get behind them taking a QB at 11 if they wanted a competition.
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In comment 15215707 montanagiant said:
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What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
I would love to know that answer
You're not going to get much push back that Gettleman constructed a deplorable offensive cast last year. I suspect if you go back to last offseason, you'll see plenty of chatter between BW, Terps, Googs, and me fearful of that point.
But answering your question directly: I expected Daniel Jones to have the same kind of season Sam Darnold in his second season -- with a shitty line, bad WRs, subpar running game, in his 2nd season in a new system.
Was Sam Darnold's situation so much better in his 2nd year than Jones last year?
I expected Jones to throw more touchdowns and win more games.
I was pleased he cut down his fumbles (still a WIP), and I was pleased he ran the ball well. I was also please he continued to throw the ball well downfield.
But situation aside, I didn't expect Jones to be so unproductive in so many games.
So you will just discount having a second year QB having a brand new offensive scheme and coaching staff? With no preseason? And many have said he was looking pretty good right before the hammy.
And round and round we go. This thread may never end... lol. And I think most people didn't think our offense looked very talented last year, at least after Saquon went down. I recall many discussions about not having a true #1 receiver and questions about Evan Engram.
The Giants offense last year wasn't really that talented with Saquon there, let alone without him. Shepard was our best receiver and he's a #3 slot guy. Now at least there's some talent in with Golladay and perhaps another receiver drafted at #11 to accurately judge Jones and see whether he sinks or swims.
The only way this thread is relevant to Jones is if he has Golladay, Saquon, and say Waddle or Smith and he still has a bad year like last year. Then we'll be in the position the Jets were with Darnold
To me what it boils down to is this: what do you think Jones's ceiling is? If you think his ceiling is a good/not great player, then we should be open to finding his replacement at any opportunity. Why? Because we're not going to want to pay a good player a $35M+ contract in a couple years. Why would we, when we can pretty easily draft a similar player and pay him a fraction of that? Jones can improve quite a bit over what he's been and still not be worth a second contract.
I doubt they are, but their eyes should be open to improve at QB.
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In comment 15215707 montanagiant said:
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What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
I would love to know that answer
You're not going to get much push back that Gettleman constructed a deplorable offensive cast last year. I suspect if you go back to last offseason, you'll see plenty of chatter between BW, Terps, Googs, and me fearful of that point.
But answering your question directly: I expected Daniel Jones to have the same kind of season Sam Darnold in his second season -- with a shitty line, bad WRs, subpar running game, in his 2nd season in a new system.
Was Sam Darnold's situation so much better in his 2nd year than Jones last year?
I expected Jones to throw more touchdowns and win more games.
I was pleased he cut down his fumbles (still a WIP), and I was pleased he ran the ball well. I was also please he continued to throw the ball well downfield.
But situation aside, I didn't expect Jones to be so unproductive in so many games.
So you will just discount having a second year QB having a brand new offensive scheme and coaching staff? With no preseason? And many have said he was looking pretty good right before the hammy.
And round and round we go. This thread may never end... lol. And I think most people didn't think our offense looked very talented last year, at least after Saquon went down. I recall many discussions about not having a true #1 receiver and questions about Evan Engram.
This topic will be on page 100 and we'll still be replying 😂
That said, if Judge wanted Lance at 11 and he was sitting there, I doubt there would be any "scholarship" holding them back from taking him.
To me what it boils down to is this: what do you think Jones's ceiling is? If you think his ceiling is a good/not great player, then we should be open to finding his replacement at any opportunity. Why? Because we're not going to want to pay a good player a $35M+ contract in a couple years. Why would we, when we can pretty easily draft a similar player and pay him a fraction of that? Jones can improve quite a bit over what he's been and still not be worth a second contract.
I doubt they are, but their eyes should be open to improve at QB.
I don't know what Jones really is until we see him with Golladay, Saquon and perhaps Waddle or DeVonta Smith as his skill position players. Then there's no excuse for Jones. Last year Jones probably had the worst skill position players in the NFL around him so it was practically impossible to judge him. Plus the OL wasn't great shakes either. It was a virtually impossible situation. Shepard would be a #3 receiver on most teams but he was our #1 guy. The less said about Engram the better
That said, if Judge wanted Lance at 11 and he was sitting there, I doubt there would be any "scholarship" holding them back from taking him.
I doubt it's Judge's call.
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but it would be very telling of what they thought of Jones if they did.
That said, if Judge wanted Lance at 11 and he was sitting there, I doubt there would be any "scholarship" holding them back from taking him.
I doubt it's Judge's call.
I don't know about that, actually. Judge doesn't strike me as a guy will stick with a player he doesn't think has what it takes. I'd have to guess if we were in a position to take Lawrence, maybe Wilson... I would be surprised if they didn't take one of them. That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
But answering your question directly: I expected Daniel Jones to have the same kind of season Sam Darnold in his second season -- with a shitty line, bad WRs, subpar running game, in his 2nd season in a new system.
Was Sam Darnold's situation so much better in his 2nd year than Jones last year?
I expected Jones to throw more touchdowns and win more games.
I was pleased he cut down his fumbles (still a WIP), and I was pleased he ran the ball well. I was also please he continued to throw the ball well downfield.
But situation aside, I didn't expect Jones to be so unproductive in so many games.
So you will just discount having a second year QB having a brand new offensive scheme and coaching staff? With no preseason? And many have said he was looking pretty good right before the hammy.
And round and round we go. This thread may never end... lol. And I think most people didn't think our offense looked very talented last year, at least after Saquon went down. I recall many discussions about not having a true #1 receiver and questions about Evan Engram.
I can’t even begin to understand how that’s what you took from comment.
I expected Daniel Jones to perform on par to how Sam Darnold did in his 2nd season. A similarly talented player in a similarly bad situation.
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I don't think Jones is worth close to a first round pick. He wasn't great at Duke, he hasn't been great in the NFL. You'd be trading four him in the hopes that he turns into something he's never shown.
And that's what I would expect bw's take to be as well, for consistency, based on everything I've read here.
Again, I'm not saying I think DJ should generate a first round pick in a theoretical trade.
But I could see another team considering it since Darnold just got the Jets a second after a horrible year. Jones has two comparable first years to Darnold and he does have attributes a team might find more useful than those of Darnold's...like more of a legit dual threat if used a specific way.
I can’t even begin to understand how that’s what you took from comment.
I expected Daniel Jones to perform on par to how Sam Darnold did in his 2nd season. A similarly talented player in a similarly bad situation.
Ah, Sorry I guess I misunderstood. Darnold's second year was far and away his best, so I just assumed you meant you were expecting a jump forward for Jones.
I actually think Darnold is going to be a decent player for Carolina. That Jets organization is truly a mess. And Adam Gase... I don't know on what planet an NFL team hires that guy to be HC after what he showed in Miami. Bizarre.
Darnold: 59.9 comp %, 36 TD, 28 INT, QBRs of 45.9 and 45.6, 16 fumbles, 200 rushing yards, 3 TD
Jones actually has the better stats, especially the QBRs, but the fumbles are the killer in his case, most likely because his best receiver is Sterling Shepard who is a #3 receiver on most teams. The fumbles are due to Jones hanging onto the ball for too long because we don't have anyone who consistently gets open, so he gets hit a lot and therefore loses the ball. I would expect the fumble numbers to go down now that he actually has a #1 receiver in Golladay and could get a #2 in Smith or Waddle in the draft. If the fumbles don't improve any then we've got a serious problem and we can't continue with Jones after 2021 because he likely lost us too many games.
The Jets decided after three years that they weren't moving forward with Darnold, and we'll have to make that decision after this season with Jones. But I think to already make the decision before that all-important third season is jumping the gun. You have to see how the experiment plays out before you call it a failure...
I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?
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That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?
For the reasons we have posted in support of Jones for over 13 pages now in this thread... lol. We shall see. I don't say you are unequivocally wrong, but I believe you are. I have my concerns but again, I am bullish on what I have seen. Think about it this way, if there is even slight incremental improvement in OL play, slight improvement in skill play, slight improvement in RB and TE blocking, slight improvement in Jones timing/pocket awareness, and they scheme to his strengths and away from his weaknesses? How many close games does that put in the victory column? I'd have to think quite a few. But again, I'm optimistic on what I see.
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That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?
You’ve gotten the answer so many times. You don’t believe the answers and that’s fine, but those are the reasons. This is basically what I’m getting at when I ask why we keep talking about this stuff. There’s no metric I can point to to change your mind nor am I trying. What are you looking to find out that you don’t already know?
I’m shocked this thread still exists, keep seeing it pop up and wondered why.
and all the folks on this thread spend a few hours a day arguing badly and without facts without any consequence?
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In comment 15215893 Johnny5 said:
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That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?
For the reasons we have posted in support of Jones for over 13 pages now in this thread... lol. We shall see. I don't say you are unequivocally wrong, but I believe you are. I have my concerns but again, I am bullish on what I have seen. Think about it this way, if there is even slight incremental improvement in OL play, slight improvement in skill play, slight improvement in RB and TE blocking, slight improvement in Jones timing/pocket awareness, and they scheme to his strengths and away from his weaknesses? How many close games does that put in the victory column? I'd have to think quite a few. But again, I'm optimistic on what I see.
I'm not as bullish as you but Jones deserves the third year to prove he's the guy. I don't believe in unstable quarterback carousels as the way to build a team like Terps. That's what occurs on the other side of MetLife with the Jets and that's the reason why they haven't been in a Super Bowl since Namath played for them in the 60s. There are aspects of Jones' play in his rookie year, when he had Saquon for most of the year, where he was headed for franchise QB status. However, last year was a very difficult situation without Saquon, and I think Jones did what he could, but he definitely took a step back. Now with Golladay, Saquon back, perhaps another receiver drafted high, and another year in charge, Jones sinks or swims and he doesn't have any excuses. Either he shines and leads us to the playoffs or he fails and we have to consider a new QB
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That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why
would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?
Obviously Judge has sounded very enthusiastic on Judge in pressers. Perhaps you suggesting he's just towing the corporate line?
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In comment 15215893 Johnny5 said:
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That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?
You’ve gotten the answer so many times. You don’t believe the answers and that’s fine, but those are the reasons. This is basically what I’m getting at when I ask why we keep talking about this stuff. There’s no metric I can point to to change your mind nor am I trying. What are you looking to find out that you don’t already know?
I’m shocked this thread still exists, keep seeing it pop up and wondered why.
And the answer never makes sense.
And I will never understand the whining over that other people post. If you don't like it don't read it.
Mara's comments a week or so back that he could see DJ winning multiple Super Bowls here were odd & not needed. Sometimes John put his foot in his mouth.
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That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?
Judge actually may not have a high opinion of all things-Daniel Jones. But he is willing to go another year with him.
But would most certainly agree Judge has a higher opinion of Jones than you. Not a stretch. :-)
Mara's comments a week or so back that he could see DJ winning multiple Super Bowls here were odd & not needed. Sometimes John put his foot in his mouth.
I would look for a new QB if Jones fails this year as well, but the idea that Jones doesn't deserve a third year with us and that QBs have to sink or swim as rookies and 2nd year players or they are busts just leads to organizational instability. I agree on Mara's comments, they were silly and needlessly put Jones under more pressure. The Giants gave Phil Simms 6 years to become the guy. Heck, we even gave Dave Brown more time than some people on this board think Jones should get and Dave Brown was one of the worst QB's I've ever seen. He got 3+ years before Fassel switched to Danny Kanell in 1997 for a couple of seasons. Kanell is actually the only QB in 40 years who was given the chance to start a season for us that didn't get extended run since Simms back in the 1980s...
Mara's comments a week or so back that he could see DJ winning multiple Super Bowls here were odd & not needed. Sometimes John put his foot in his mouth.
Interesting. I didn't hear it that way. Seemed pretty innocuous to me. Sounded like Mara wanted to publicly give Jones a vote of confidence and that he believed in him.
Of course. And given what we do know, saying that Judge has a high opinion of Jones is a guess based on zero logic. He didn't draft him, so he isn't tied to him politically. In their one year together Jones played very poorly, making the kinds of mistakes that are anethema to someone as detail oriented as Judge.
There are logical reasons why Judge would not be a big buyer of Jones. There are no logical reasons he would be.
And again, this is why retaining Gettleman after hitting Judge was problematic. There is a real possibility of competing agendas causing problems.
The never ending fascination with Terps’ posts.
GT you sure can pull em’ in...
Agree. That whole press conference was odd...
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That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?
Do you think so poorly about Jones that you can't even imagine the possibility that someone with intimate knowledge about his performance - not just the cold hard stats, but how Jones performed during each play given the circumstances of the play around him - could have the opinion that he has what it takes to do great things if put into better situations?
I mean, I agree that we don't really know what Judge thinks (and we shouldn't), but is it so hard for you to imagine that might be the case that you refuse to accept it as an answer?
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and first post I saw after days skipping this thread was you asking for why. You’ll never get the answer, I’m sure you know that by now, right?
The never ending fascination with Terps’ posts.
GT you sure can pull em’ in...
Thankfully George Young and Bill Parcells were in charge of the Giants in 1984 instead of Terps and finally gave Phil Simms the chance to shine when they easily could have gone in a different direction at QB and ended up with zero SBs instead of 2
But he caveated with "...if we put the right pieces around him".
Thankfully George Young and Bill Parcells were in charge of the Giants in 1984 instead of Terps and finally gave Phil Simms the chance to shine when they easily could have gone in a different direction at QB and ended up with zero SBs instead of 2
Different football, different eras, different economic models.
Apple to an orange...
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and first post I saw after days skipping this thread was you asking for why. You’ll never get the answer, I’m sure you know that by now, right?
The never ending fascination with Terps’ posts.
GT you sure can pull em’ in...
I usually enjoy his posts actually. Some things just are never let gone even when you already know the answer, hence my question.
Speaking of fish, looks like I just reeled you in!
There are logical reasons why Judge would not be a big buyer of Jones. There are no logical reasons he would be.
Sorry, but that's just silly. Of course there are logical reasons he would be. Just because you don't agree with them with the information you have doesn't mean they aren't logical.
What if he is Tim Couch or Christian Ponder?
What if he is Tim Couch or Christian Ponder?
We don't know yet, that's the point. That's why we need a third year to see whether it tips one way or the other
Just a different era.
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Thankfully George Young and Bill Parcells were in charge of the Giants in 1984 instead of Terps and finally gave Phil Simms the chance to shine when they easily could have gone in a different direction at QB and ended up with zero SBs instead of 2
Different football, different eras, different economic models.
Apple to an orange...
The Giants considered trading Simms in 1983, which was his 5th season. Simms actually asked for a trade but the Giants couldn't find a buyer. That's how low his stock was back then
Just a different era.
Just a gut feeling, but the way football was played in the '80s, I think a lot of the QBs in that era would have absolutely shined in this era. And, of course, WRs.
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In comment 15215955 UConn4523 said:
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and first post I saw after days skipping this thread was you asking for why. You’ll never get the answer, I’m sure you know that by now, right?
The never ending fascination with Terps’ posts.
GT you sure can pull em’ in...
I usually enjoy his posts actually. Some things just are never let gone even when you already know the answer, hence my question.
Speaking of fish, looks like I just reeled you in!
Not really, just used yours as the example here.
Yours are better when you talk about Tom Brady’s teeth...
Just a different era.
True, but thank goodness Simms got the long leash in retrospect. In this era the long leash would be 4 years, back then it was 5 or 6. I don't think Jeff Hostetler or Jeff Rutledge would have won the title for us in 1986. The interesting what if is if the Giants gave up on Simms in 1983 and decided to draft Boomer Esiason in 1984. Perhaps we still have similar success because Boomer was a talented QB as well
This is only the 3rd year for Jones and I'm willing to move on from him if he doesn't work out this year. He has to succeed this year or we most likely need to look QB again.
I would agree, and I don’t think it is. Judge got less than a year with Jones, even less when you factor in the injury. I think it’s reasonable to want to see him healthy and with some semblance of skill players around him, hopefully with improved line play. Judge isn’t on the hot seat anyway, he can afford to be patient and see how it goes this year and use 2022 to get “his QB” if it doesn’t work out.
I agree.
In 1983 the Giants drafted Terry Kinard over Kelly and More importantly Marino. In 2005 the Giants didn't have a first rounder because they traded it for Eli. If they'd had that first rounder they would have been able to draft Aaron Rodgers.
Marino and Rodgers. Simms and Eli are probably my two favorite Giants ever, but it turned out that they had options to improve over the both of them early.
&-for all the bitching we do recently-25 odd fan bases would trade their history for ours.
If Jones doesn't step up this year and the Giants do have to look for another QB that makes the 18/19/20 first round strategy effectively one giant wet fart, and is a huge step back as a whole for the organization.
That's why those of us who are bearish on Jones want to move on quickly in case that's what happens.
&-for all the bitching we do recently-25 odd fan bases would trade their history for ours.
Yeah I'm definitely not bitching about either player. I love those guys.
It goes to show you that NFL teams don’t agree with fans on player value.
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And how they even got a draft pick (after those first two) is all on rep. This guy has done nothing.
It goes to show you that NFL teams don’t agree with fans on player value.
That's true, and goes back to what bw said about Jones possibly netting a first round pick. He might be right about that. It's easy to imagine a team that had a high draft grade on him saying "The Giants are a mess and that's why he struggled".
I just want a quarterback that was brought here with Judge's influence and ethos as the primary methodology for doing so.
In Darnold's defense, his second half of 2019 was a good showing. I detailed it yesterday. The Jets went 6-2, Darnold had 13/4 TDs/INTs and he ran for 2 TDs. And the YPA was 7.3 and his QBR was 64.
So the narrative at the end of '19 was those last 8 games would be a catalyst for bigger things in '20. Unfortunately for Darnold '20 was a total nightmare.
CBS Sports - ( New Window )
Hilarious if true. I thought I saw other people in the know shooting this down pretty quick though
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That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?
How Jones handles himself on and off the field? How he practices? How he looked on tape at Duke? How he played the second half of 2020?
and all the folks on this thread spend a few hours a day arguing badly and without facts without any consequence?
I love this. We are all guilty of this sometimes, but some here really cannot process that the coaches know more. And not just because the coaches "know" more, but because there is practices. There's the film room.
Why is coach Thibs playing Obi Toppin every game, even for a few minutes? Every fricking PC someone asks him why and every single time he says the same thing--Obi is doing EVERYTHING they want him to in in practice.
Don't ignore practices and how players both perform and respond.
If Jones was an older player he wouldn't get the leash he got. He was in the NFL for a hot minute and some of you were and are lambasting the Giants for sticking with him. Really is odd. Odd is one word to use.
the guy had played like 18 total games, surrounded by one of the least talented offenses in football, with little to no practice time due to covid and an entirely NEW COACHING STAFF!!!
Call that what you will. Excuses...great. I call them facts.
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49ers apparently offered the Jets the 12th pick for Darnold a few months ago. CBS Sports - ( New Window )
Hilarious if true. I thought I saw other people in the know shooting this down pretty quick though
I didn't see the refutation, sorry about that. I guess I'm fake news.
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And how they even got a draft pick (after those first two) is all on rep. This guy has done nothing.
In Darnold's defense, his second half of 2019 was a good showing. I detailed it yesterday. The Jets went 6-2, Darnold had 13/4 TDs/INTs and he ran for 2 TDs. And the YPA was 7.3 and his QBR was 64.
So the narrative at the end of '19 was those last 8 games would be a catalyst for bigger things in '20. Unfortunately for Darnold '20 was a total nightmare.
this is the fear with Jones. It's a fair point. Nothing is etched in stone. Just because Jones played better over his last 5-6 games doesn't mean it carries over to 2021. But what does give me encouragement is that everything Jones needs to improve upon is correctable with coaching, and he did improve those traits.
Dave Brown couldn't improve because he couldn't really do anything well. He wasn't very good at reading defenses. Wasn't mobile. Wasn't good at all in the pocket. Didn't posses amazing arm talent. He showed progress in 94 but quickly regressed.
If Jones doesn't show good signs early on in 2021, we should be worried, but the Giants are giving Jones a better shot at success than Brown received here.
there's nothing wrong with being nervous that Jones isn't the goods. But I have a hard time with people lambasting the Giants for sticking with him. Sometimes you have to give the kid some rope and live or die with things. Young players are the backbone of a roster. You live and die with em. If you cut bait at every hiccup, you won't win a thing.