Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
The fumbling was not corrected. He fumbled 6 times in the last 6 games. Or if you prefer, 4 times in the last 3.
He led the league with 11 fumbles.
I said mostly corrected. He dropped it from 18 to 11 and yeah I AGREE that still needs to improve. So I overstated with "mostly" corrected. I don't hear you killing Lamar Jackson, who only had one less for the year. Why is that?
Comparably in 2020:
Derek Carr 11
Daniel Jones 11
Taysom Hill 10
Lamar Jackson 10
Carson Wentz 10
Josh Allen 9
Joe Burrow 9
Kirk Cousins 9
Jalen Hurts 9
Kyler Murray 9
Justin Herbert 8
Drew Lock 8
Baker Mayfield 8
Deshaun Watson 8
Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
that get it wrong like you talking about his fumbles.
The discussion is old but has to keep being brought up by posters like Jimmy Clownshoes.
The "why" behind that is more telling. What does talking about fumbles in April mean when the QB will be the QB going into the season and he's going to get another year no matter how many times people want to scream that he sucks.
Clowshoes make annoying sounds. Just like Jimmy Boy and his rotating stable of handles.
Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
Because you happened to guess right? No fucking way.
Christian covered that above. It's because Jackson is a better player than Jones by an order of magnitude.
You may be right, but how do you think Lamar Jackson looks on last years Giants?
Significantly better than Jones, and almost certainly the division champion.
Maybe. Better? Likely. Significantly? Not sure I can agree with that. He would have been getting hit a SHIT TON more than he did in Baltimore that's for sure. I think Lamar Jacksons success has as much to do with the situation and Harbaugh. If NY Giants drafted Jackson I would bet good money people are calling him a bust right about now. And I like Jackson, I liked him coming out.
We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
RE: RE: The discussion isn’t old. What’s old is posters
that get it wrong like you talking about his fumbles.
The discussion is old but has to keep being brought up by posters like Jimmy Clownshoes.
The "why" behind that is more telling. What does talking about fumbles in April mean when the QB will be the QB going into the season and he's going to get another year no matter how many times people want to scream that he sucks.
Clowshoes make annoying sounds. Just like Jimmy Boy and his rotating stable of handles.
I didn’t bring it up. But have no issues discussing things about the starting QB of the Giants. You know because it’s a fan discussion board.
And you just continue to embarrass yourself looking for certain posters to follow around and call them names. You can tell when you are getting annoyed as the bullying and name calling intensifies itself. And then you soon look for that trap door.
We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
For sure. Although IIRC
Jones scored consistently over 20 pts in what looked like a better offense in his rookie year. Well, better suited offense to him anyway. We know the Giants were a mess for way too many years now. And I don't absolve Gettleman at all, but I really feel like we are on the upswing with Judge. And that goes for player eval, FA signing, drafting, and most importantly coaching. I still have my fears about Garrett and the OL, and I really don't think anyone should be counting on Barkley this season but if the OL stabilizes a bit more I think we will see a very good QB in Jones. We'll see.. we will know one way or the other that's for sure. And GT I know you are glass half empty on it but thanks for at least having a reasonable discussion.
The record is what it is, the points per game are what they are, Jones's stats are what they are. If they were better, I'd be saying better things about him.
I had an attachment to the players from 05-11, Eli especially. Those guys have us a lot of great, happy moments that we'll remember forever. As such I gave as lot of them (especially Eli) the benefit of the doubt.
I don't feel attached to any of these players. They've only delivered bad, losing football. Until they do better, they're not getting any more benefit of the doubt from me than I would give any other team.
I don't think that's glass half empty. I think that's just fair.
We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
For sure. Although IIRC
Jones scored consistently over 20 pts in what looked like a better offense in his rookie year. Well, better suited offense to him anyway. We know the Giants were a mess for way too many years now. And I don't absolve Gettleman at all, but I really feel like we are on the upswing with Judge. And that goes for player eval, FA signing, drafting, and most importantly coaching. I still have my fears about Garrett and the OL, and I really don't think anyone should be counting on Barkley this season but if the OL stabilizes a bit more I think we will see a very good QB in Jones. We'll see.. we will know one way or the other that's for sure. And GT I know you are glass half empty on it but thanks for at least having a reasonable discussion.
Hey Johnny good post. I have same thoughts and views actually.
We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
For sure. Although IIRC
Jones scored consistently over 20 pts in what looked like a better offense in his rookie year. Well, better suited offense to him anyway. We know the Giants were a mess for way too many years now. And I don't absolve Gettleman at all, but I really feel like we are on the upswing with Judge. And that goes for player eval, FA signing, drafting, and most importantly coaching. I still have my fears about Garrett and the OL, and I really don't think anyone should be counting on Barkley this season but if the OL stabilizes a bit more I think we will see a very good QB in Jones. We'll see.. we will know one way or the other that's for sure. And GT I know you are glass half empty on it but thanks for at least having a reasonable discussion.
Hey Johnny good post. I have same thoughts and views actually.
did a good job creating situations for Jones. He was coaching for his job. He has been very good at times as a OC. The line was a little better and is was the second year for the players other than Jones.
Judge is building a team for long term success. He gave clues of this in some of his comments last season. He said they made it hard on Jones. The rotating line.
The hope is the offense has more talent, the staff understands Jones strengths and liabilities and will create on offense that's tailored better to success for him. Long term those liabilities have to be addressed though or it will be exposed against the better defenses. They will find a better balance between the two I believe.
Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
Because you happened to guess right? No fucking way.
Didn't think so.
So I'd Jones lights it up you get to say "i told you so" but of be doesn't you don't have to own up to being wrong.
Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
Because you happened to guess right? No fucking way.
Didn't think so.
So I'd Jones lights it up you get to say "i told you so" but of be doesn't you don't have to own up to being wrong.
Must be nice
We're all just expressing our opinions here. Some of us will be right, others wrong. These things are highly random. Nobody needs an apology. But a nod in the direction of the guys who got it right, would be nice.
We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
For sure. Although IIRC
Jones scored consistently over 20 pts in what looked like a better offense in his rookie year. Well, better suited offense to him anyway. We know the Giants were a mess for way too many years now. And I don't absolve Gettleman at all, but I really feel like we are on the upswing with Judge. And that goes for player eval, FA signing, drafting, and most importantly coaching. I still have my fears about Garrett and the OL, and I really don't think anyone should be counting on Barkley this season but if the OL stabilizes a bit more I think we will see a very good QB in Jones. We'll see.. we will know one way or the other that's for sure. And GT I know you are glass half empty on it but thanks for at least having a reasonable discussion.
Hey Johnny good post. I have same thoughts and views actually.
Is that all of us are half right his entire career
actually i think it is more likely there will be something conclusive. Most QBs in his spot either make it or don't. Trubisky, Mariota, Osweiler, Winston, come to mind as QBs that failed. Carr and Cousins come to mind as a QBs that have sort of succeeded, though they are probably not elite.
I can understand that perspective. Another question, what would you think of Jones rookie year with say, half the fumbles?
I still wouldn't feel good. The AY/A was very low (6.46), indicating (along with the low points/game) a general lack of effectiveness. It was the same way at Duke, too...
We were told he was not the most physically talented, but as polished and NFL ready as a college prospect could be. That wasn't the case. He really had a hard time reading the game in 2019, and that showed again in 2020.
I keep coming back to Sy's scouting report: "There isn't a quick mind here."
Jones has fatal flaws to his game (poor pocket presence, slow loopy release, inability to read defenses pre and post snap) that you don't go to the NFL to fix.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
Because you happened to guess right? No fucking way.
Didn't think so.
So I'd Jones lights it up you get to say "i told you so" but of be doesn't you don't have to own up to being wrong.
Must be nice
We're all just expressing our opinions here. Some of us will be right, others wrong. These things are highly random. Nobody needs an apology. But a nod in the direction of the guys who got it right, would be nice.
Agree with that. I'm not arrogant enough about my football knowledge to throw it in other peoples faces when I'm right about these kinds of things. I would be happy to give anyone a nod if there predictions are accurate and hopefully you guys will do the same.
Look I think for the most part we are all somewhere slightly left or right of center on Jones. I am one of the more optimistic ones, but I don't claim that I absolutely know better. It's really just the absolutes that he is not the guy, I mean I am fine with that opinion but the fighting about it in absolutes is what I guess drives me a little nutty.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
Because you happened to guess right? No fucking way.
Didn't think so.
So I'd Jones lights it up you get to say "i told you so" but of be doesn't you don't have to own up to being wrong.
Must be nice
We're all just expressing our opinions here. Some of us will be right, others wrong. These things are highly random. Nobody needs an apology. But a nod in the direction of the guys who got it right, would be nice.
Agree with that. I'm not arrogant enough about my football knowledge to throw it in other peoples faces when I'm right about these kinds of things. I would be happy to give anyone a nod if there predictions are accurate and hopefully you guys will do the same.
Look I think for the most part we are all somewhere slightly left or right of center on Jones. I am one of the more optimistic ones, but I don't claim that I absolutely know better. It's really just the absolutes that he is not the guy, I mean I am fine with that opinion but the fighting about it in absolutes is what I guess drives me a little nutty.
Yes. And even the people who *know* are just making a better educated guess. There's no real science to this. Or in my opinion, any real art. It is subject to probabilities.
every one of these "fatal flaws" have actually been called a strength of his by analysts
Quote:
Jones has fatal flaws to his game (poor pocket presence, slow loopy release, inability to read defenses pre and post snap) that you don't go to the NFL to fix.
"Poor pocket presence"?? He had one of the highest completion % of QB's under duress
"Slow loopy release"?? I know you tried to show a still picture of him holding the ball low which was a ridiculous attempt to say his mechanics are poor, but his release has been called a strength. Just listen to some of what Bobby Skinner says.
"Inability to read defenses pre and post snap"?? Do you have anything to back up this "fatal flaw"?
You really just seemingly throw shit against the wall with Jones. At first, it was serially reciting his stats. Now, you're just creating things out of thin air.
Again the question at hand is - "Why"??
If these are all strengths, then why didn’t Jones have a strong year?
every one of these "fatal flaws" have actually been called a strength of his by analysts
Quote:
Jones has fatal flaws to his game (poor pocket presence, slow loopy release, inability to read defenses pre and post snap) that you don't go to the NFL to fix.
"Poor pocket presence"?? He had one of the highest completion % of QB's under duress
"Slow loopy release"?? I know you tried to show a still picture of him holding the ball low which was a ridiculous attempt to say his mechanics are poor, but his release has been called a strength. Just listen to some of what Bobby Skinner says.
"Inability to read defenses pre and post snap"?? Do you have anything to back up this "fatal flaw"?
You really just seemingly throw shit against the wall with Jones. At first, it was serially reciting his stats. Now, you're just creating things out of thin air.
Again the question at hand is - "Why"??
well i would love to see your link for that high comp pct under duress. Did it come at the cost of Y/A? I searched for this stat and can't find it. It is an exotic stat to be sure, based on subjective viewing, something you have criticized PFF for doing.
RE: RE: RE: If these are all strengths, then why didn’t Jones have a strong year?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
So you're saying Gettleman did a bad job putting the roster together. See, we can agree on something.
I actually have been saying that for awhile which makes it humorous when I'm called a Gettleman supporter.
There's a difference between being a Gettleman supporter and a person who rails against Terrible Hot Takes. Hard to see the difference when you are full of them.
RE: RE: If these are all strengths, then why didn’t Jones have a strong year?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
But why does Jones have a poor OL and poor WRs? Sure, Barkley got hurt but that’s what happens to a lot of RBs. Surely this isn’t the first RB to get injured and they have backups to step up. And in fact Gallman and the others did reasonably well.
Why fmic..why didn’t Jones’ strengths show through? And why aren’t those other offensive players better? Why?
RE: RE: RE: RE: If these are all strengths, then why didn’t Jones have a strong year?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
So you're saying Gettleman did a bad job putting the roster together. See, we can agree on something.
I actually have been saying that for awhile which makes it humorous when I'm called a Gettleman supporter.
There's a difference between being a Gettleman supporter and a person who rails against Terrible Hot Takes. Hard to see the difference when you are full of them.
You’ve been saying Gettleman did a bad job??
Hold on...the site must not be working correctly. It’s actually changing your posts when you hit Submit...
I think people would be more excited about Jones if his first and second seasons were reversed.
I'm skeptical/down on Jones but I can easily see a scenario where he puts up above-average numbers this year. I think Garrett's offense was awful for what Jones does well.
I've watched too much Darnold for a Giants fan the past three years - I think Jones is easily better. I see more potential in Jones than I've ever seen in Darnold.
I think you are onto something with your first point. Jones flashed more in '19 and seemed to make more big plays. Aside from the big run versus Philly, I really can't recall any signature plays for Jones in '20. So if the seasons were flipped, the mood around here might indeed be more bullish.
We differ on Garrett. He's really setting up to be a fall guy. You don't call the gem he called against Tampa last year and say he doesn't what he's doing. So I'm putting the pullback with the offense in '20 in this order (1) Jones, (2) OL/Barkley injury and (3) new offense for everyone.
Darnold is a weird one for me. The "seeing ghosts" comment was a horrible red flag. But he does make some very high level throws that are indicative of some high level ability. And, of course, the Jet factor messes up a fair evaluation as well. The best thing that could happen for him is that he gets a new opportunity in Carolina.
I feel like he is an average GM at this point. His drafts have been decent, and he's had some hits and misses in FA. He clearly relies on the coaching staff to tell him what they need (I am basing this on the Bettcher / AZ player signings) And that's not a bad thing if you have a coach that knows what he wants (and is actually worth his salt). I feel like he is working well with Judge, and I really trust Judge at this point, so I'm OK with him sticking around.
Shurmur was a bad hire. And most of his staff was, awful. It's kind of a tie for me between him and MacAdoo on level of suck... lol
I am bullish enough on what I have seen of Judge and Jones, as well as how FA agency has been going. If we have a good draft I fell that we are going to have a good season. We certainly shall see.
Right. So what about Ryan Tannenhill? What about Dak Prescott and how he went from merely productive and one that didn't screw things up (2016 -17) to insanely productive and indispensable (2019 and 2020 prior to injury) or how about someone like Mayfield? Didn't look so good in year 2 did he. Year 3 he's the cat's pajamas again. Are you going to tell me that Bills fans haven't gone from liking a player to going full bloom love for Josh Allen from years 1-2 to year 3-4? Really.
Conversely, what about the young up starts that turn into chicken shit by year 3-4? it goes both ways. The first 3-4 years of a QBs lifeline can be wacky, to say the least.
I give up. Friggin exhausting and not worth the time. Say with a straight face that every QB is a finished product after 2 years and anyone with a clue will laugh you out of the room.
Are you sure about that Dak comment? He was 23/4 TD/INT in his first year at 77 QBR. Slight pullback to a 70 QBR his sophomore year (22/13). But those two years crush Jones's first two. I mean, it's not even close. Futhermore, Dak was a 4th round draft choice, not the 6th pick.
I sort of get Tannehill, but at least he flipped the script on TD/INTs year over year. First year, he was 12/13, but improved to 24/17 in his second year and kept his YPA around the same 6.7/8.
What about Mayfield? He threw 49 TDs passes his first two years combined and had a very healthy YPA over 7 each year (did pull back in year two). His QBRs aren't impressive but at least he was scoring points.
We've been down this path before with Josh Allen. He has improved every year with this third year the peak. But he was scoring points and was a HUGE asset in the run game. In his first two years, he scored 17 rushing TDs. And added 7 more in '20. While he's been erratic throwing, that running ability has to be included.
I'm not saying Jones can't improve. But I just don't feel great about it because his effort was so dull and listless in '20.
It was posted here a couple of days ago(not by me). When I get a chance to find it, I'll link it. Or you can take some initiative and find it on your own.
It has been posted along with his completion % on downfield throws.
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
Really? What did I get wrong about the fumbles? Enlighten me Googs.
Quote:
that get it wrong like you talking about his fumbles.
Really? What did I get wrong about the fumbles? Enlighten me Googs.
Give it some more thought. If you haven’t gotten it in the next hour then I will help you out.
He led the league with 11 fumbles.
Quote:
In comment 15213967 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
that get it wrong like you talking about his fumbles.
Really? What did I get wrong about the fumbles? Enlighten me Googs.
Give it some more thought. If you haven’t gotten it in the next hour then I will help you out.
Yeah... Ok. You do that.
He led the league with 11 fumbles.
I said mostly corrected. He dropped it from 18 to 11 and yeah I AGREE that still needs to improve. So I overstated with "mostly" corrected. I don't hear you killing Lamar Jackson, who only had one less for the year. Why is that?
Comparably in 2020:
Derek Carr 11
Daniel Jones 11
Taysom Hill 10
Lamar Jackson 10
Carson Wentz 10
Josh Allen 9
Joe Burrow 9
Kirk Cousins 9
Jalen Hurts 9
Kyler Murray 9
Justin Herbert 8
Drew Lock 8
Baker Mayfield 8
Deshaun Watson 8
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
The discussion is old but has to keep being brought up by posters like Jimmy Clownshoes.
The "why" behind that is more telling. What does talking about fumbles in April mean when the QB will be the QB going into the season and he's going to get another year no matter how many times people want to scream that he sucks.
Clowshoes make annoying sounds. Just like Jimmy Boy and his rotating stable of handles.
Quote:
Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
Because you happened to guess right? No fucking way.
You may be right, but how do you think Lamar Jackson looks on last years Giants?
Quote:
Christian covered that above. It's because Jackson is a better player than Jones by an order of magnitude.
You may be right, but how do you think Lamar Jackson looks on last years Giants?
Significantly better than Jones, and almost certainly the division champion.
Quote:
In comment 15214003 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Christian covered that above. It's because Jackson is a better player than Jones by an order of magnitude.
You may be right, but how do you think Lamar Jackson looks on last years Giants?
Significantly better than Jones, and almost certainly the division champion.
Maybe. Better? Likely. Significantly? Not sure I can agree with that. He would have been getting hit a SHIT TON more than he did in Baltimore that's for sure. I think Lamar Jacksons success has as much to do with the situation and Harbaugh. If NY Giants drafted Jackson I would bet good money people are calling him a bust right about now. And I like Jackson, I liked him coming out.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
Quote:
that get it wrong like you talking about his fumbles.
The discussion is old but has to keep being brought up by posters like Jimmy Clownshoes.
The "why" behind that is more telling. What does talking about fumbles in April mean when the QB will be the QB going into the season and he's going to get another year no matter how many times people want to scream that he sucks.
Clowshoes make annoying sounds. Just like Jimmy Boy and his rotating stable of handles.
I didn’t bring it up. But have no issues discussing things about the starting QB of the Giants. You know because it’s a fan discussion board.
And you just continue to embarrass yourself looking for certain posters to follow around and call them names. You can tell when you are getting annoyed as the bullying and name calling intensifies itself. And then you soon look for that trap door.
Comic relief...
He led the league with 11 fumbles.
Terps - Johnny needed to figure that out without your assist please...
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
For sure. Although IIRC
Jones scored consistently over 20 pts in what looked like a better offense in his rookie year. Well, better suited offense to him anyway. We know the Giants were a mess for way too many years now. And I don't absolve Gettleman at all, but I really feel like we are on the upswing with Judge. And that goes for player eval, FA signing, drafting, and most importantly coaching. I still have my fears about Garrett and the OL, and I really don't think anyone should be counting on Barkley this season but if the OL stabilizes a bit more I think we will see a very good QB in Jones. We'll see.. we will know one way or the other that's for sure. And GT I know you are glass half empty on it but thanks for at least having a reasonable discussion.
lol ok, I was underplaying it a lil bit... lil bit
I had an attachment to the players from 05-11, Eli especially. Those guys have us a lot of great, happy moments that we'll remember forever. As such I gave as lot of them (especially Eli) the benefit of the doubt.
I don't feel attached to any of these players. They've only delivered bad, losing football. Until they do better, they're not getting any more benefit of the doubt from me than I would give any other team.
I don't think that's glass half empty. I think that's just fair.
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We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
For sure. Although IIRC
Jones scored consistently over 20 pts in what looked like a better offense in his rookie year. Well, better suited offense to him anyway. We know the Giants were a mess for way too many years now. And I don't absolve Gettleman at all, but I really feel like we are on the upswing with Judge. And that goes for player eval, FA signing, drafting, and most importantly coaching. I still have my fears about Garrett and the OL, and I really don't think anyone should be counting on Barkley this season but if the OL stabilizes a bit more I think we will see a very good QB in Jones. We'll see.. we will know one way or the other that's for sure. And GT I know you are glass half empty on it but thanks for at least having a reasonable discussion.
Hey Johnny good post. I have same thoughts and views actually.
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In comment 15214026 Go Terps said:
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We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
For sure. Although IIRC
Jones scored consistently over 20 pts in what looked like a better offense in his rookie year. Well, better suited offense to him anyway. We know the Giants were a mess for way too many years now. And I don't absolve Gettleman at all, but I really feel like we are on the upswing with Judge. And that goes for player eval, FA signing, drafting, and most importantly coaching. I still have my fears about Garrett and the OL, and I really don't think anyone should be counting on Barkley this season but if the OL stabilizes a bit more I think we will see a very good QB in Jones. We'll see.. we will know one way or the other that's for sure. And GT I know you are glass half empty on it but thanks for at least having a reasonable discussion.
Hey Johnny good post. I have same thoughts and views actually.
Holy... did we just have... a moment? lol
Judge is building a team for long term success. He gave clues of this in some of his comments last season. He said they made it hard on Jones. The rotating line.
The hope is the offense has more talent, the staff understands Jones strengths and liabilities and will create on offense that's tailored better to success for him. Long term those liabilities have to be addressed though or it will be exposed against the better defenses. They will find a better balance between the two I believe.
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In comment 15213962 Johnny5 said:
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Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
Because you happened to guess right? No fucking way.
Didn't think so.
So I'd Jones lights it up you get to say "i told you so" but of be doesn't you don't have to own up to being wrong.
Must be nice
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In comment 15214002 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 15213962 Johnny5 said:
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Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
Because you happened to guess right? No fucking way.
Didn't think so.
So I'd Jones lights it up you get to say "i told you so" but of be doesn't you don't have to own up to being wrong.
Must be nice
We're all just expressing our opinions here. Some of us will be right, others wrong. These things are highly random. Nobody needs an apology. But a nod in the direction of the guys who got it right, would be nice.
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In comment 15214070 Johnny5 said:
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In comment 15214026 Go Terps said:
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We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
For sure. Although IIRC
Jones scored consistently over 20 pts in what looked like a better offense in his rookie year. Well, better suited offense to him anyway. We know the Giants were a mess for way too many years now. And I don't absolve Gettleman at all, but I really feel like we are on the upswing with Judge. And that goes for player eval, FA signing, drafting, and most importantly coaching. I still have my fears about Garrett and the OL, and I really don't think anyone should be counting on Barkley this season but if the OL stabilizes a bit more I think we will see a very good QB in Jones. We'll see.. we will know one way or the other that's for sure. And GT I know you are glass half empty on it but thanks for at least having a reasonable discussion.
Hey Johnny good post. I have same thoughts and views actually.
Holy... did we just have... a moment? lol
Sure. Look forward to more good posts...
Let’s hope we can talk about his entire career after 2021.
Pulling big for Jones to be the guy. It will suck looking for another QB so soon. I hope he surprises everybody...
actually i think it is more likely there will be something conclusive. Most QBs in his spot either make it or don't. Trubisky, Mariota, Osweiler, Winston, come to mind as QBs that failed. Carr and Cousins come to mind as a QBs that have sort of succeeded, though they are probably not elite.
I still wouldn't feel good. The AY/A was very low (6.46), indicating (along with the low points/game) a general lack of effectiveness. It was the same way at Duke, too...
We were told he was not the most physically talented, but as polished and NFL ready as a college prospect could be. That wasn't the case. He really had a hard time reading the game in 2019, and that showed again in 2020.
I keep coming back to Sy's scouting report: "There isn't a quick mind here."
Jones has fatal flaws to his game (poor pocket presence, slow loopy release, inability to read defenses pre and post snap) that you don't go to the NFL to fix.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
Because you happened to guess right? No fucking way.
Didn't think so.
So I'd Jones lights it up you get to say "i told you so" but of be doesn't you don't have to own up to being wrong.
Must be nice
We're all just expressing our opinions here. Some of us will be right, others wrong. These things are highly random. Nobody needs an apology. But a nod in the direction of the guys who got it right, would be nice.
Agree with that. I'm not arrogant enough about my football knowledge to throw it in other peoples faces when I'm right about these kinds of things. I would be happy to give anyone a nod if there predictions are accurate and hopefully you guys will do the same.
Look I think for the most part we are all somewhere slightly left or right of center on Jones. I am one of the more optimistic ones, but I don't claim that I absolutely know better. It's really just the absolutes that he is not the guy, I mean I am fine with that opinion but the fighting about it in absolutes is what I guess drives me a little nutty.
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And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
Because you happened to guess right? No fucking way.
Didn't think so.
So I'd Jones lights it up you get to say "i told you so" but of be doesn't you don't have to own up to being wrong.
Must be nice
We're all just expressing our opinions here. Some of us will be right, others wrong. These things are highly random. Nobody needs an apology. But a nod in the direction of the guys who got it right, would be nice.
Agree with that. I'm not arrogant enough about my football knowledge to throw it in other peoples faces when I'm right about these kinds of things. I would be happy to give anyone a nod if there predictions are accurate and hopefully you guys will do the same.
Look I think for the most part we are all somewhere slightly left or right of center on Jones. I am one of the more optimistic ones, but I don't claim that I absolutely know better. It's really just the absolutes that he is not the guy, I mean I am fine with that opinion but the fighting about it in absolutes is what I guess drives me a little nutty.
Yes. And even the people who *know* are just making a better educated guess. There's no real science to this. Or in my opinion, any real art. It is subject to probabilities.
"Poor pocket presence"?? He had one of the highest completion % of QB's under duress
"Slow loopy release"?? I know you tried to show a still picture of him holding the ball low which was a ridiculous attempt to say his mechanics are poor, but his release has been called a strength. Just listen to some of what Bobby Skinner says.
"Inability to read defenses pre and post snap"?? Do you have anything to back up this "fatal flaw"?
You really just seemingly throw shit against the wall with Jones. At first, it was serially reciting his stats. Now, you're just creating things out of thin air.
Again the question at hand is - "Why"??
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
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Again, the question is why?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
So you're saying Gettleman did a bad job putting the roster together. See, we can agree on something.
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Jones has fatal flaws to his game (poor pocket presence, slow loopy release, inability to read defenses pre and post snap) that you don't go to the NFL to fix.
"Poor pocket presence"?? He had one of the highest completion % of QB's under duress
"Slow loopy release"?? I know you tried to show a still picture of him holding the ball low which was a ridiculous attempt to say his mechanics are poor, but his release has been called a strength. Just listen to some of what Bobby Skinner says.
"Inability to read defenses pre and post snap"?? Do you have anything to back up this "fatal flaw"?
You really just seemingly throw shit against the wall with Jones. At first, it was serially reciting his stats. Now, you're just creating things out of thin air.
Again the question at hand is - "Why"??
well i would love to see your link for that high comp pct under duress. Did it come at the cost of Y/A? I searched for this stat and can't find it. It is an exotic stat to be sure, based on subjective viewing, something you have criticized PFF for doing.
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In comment 15214226 Jimmy Googs said:
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Again, the question is why?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
So you're saying Gettleman did a bad job putting the roster together. See, we can agree on something.
I actually have been saying that for awhile which makes it humorous when I'm called a Gettleman supporter.
There's a difference between being a Gettleman supporter and a person who rails against Terrible Hot Takes. Hard to see the difference when you are full of them.
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Again, the question is why?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
But why does Jones have a poor OL and poor WRs? Sure, Barkley got hurt but that’s what happens to a lot of RBs. Surely this isn’t the first RB to get injured and they have backups to step up. And in fact Gallman and the others did reasonably well.
Why fmic..why didn’t Jones’ strengths show through? And why aren’t those other offensive players better? Why?
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In comment 15214230 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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In comment 15214226 Jimmy Googs said:
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Again, the question is why?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
So you're saying Gettleman did a bad job putting the roster together. See, we can agree on something.
I actually have been saying that for awhile which makes it humorous when I'm called a Gettleman supporter.
There's a difference between being a Gettleman supporter and a person who rails against Terrible Hot Takes. Hard to see the difference when you are full of them.
You’ve been saying Gettleman did a bad job??
Hold on...the site must not be working correctly. It’s actually changing your posts when you hit Submit...
I'm skeptical/down on Jones but I can easily see a scenario where he puts up above-average numbers this year. I think Garrett's offense was awful for what Jones does well.
I've watched too much Darnold for a Giants fan the past three years - I think Jones is easily better. I see more potential in Jones than I've ever seen in Darnold.
I think you are onto something with your first point. Jones flashed more in '19 and seemed to make more big plays. Aside from the big run versus Philly, I really can't recall any signature plays for Jones in '20. So if the seasons were flipped, the mood around here might indeed be more bullish.
We differ on Garrett. He's really setting up to be a fall guy. You don't call the gem he called against Tampa last year and say he doesn't what he's doing. So I'm putting the pullback with the offense in '20 in this order (1) Jones, (2) OL/Barkley injury and (3) new offense for everyone.
Darnold is a weird one for me. The "seeing ghosts" comment was a horrible red flag. But he does make some very high level throws that are indicative of some high level ability. And, of course, the Jet factor messes up a fair evaluation as well. The best thing that could happen for him is that he gets a new opportunity in Carolina.
Or continue to play the fool.
Your choice.
Shurmur was a bad hire. And most of his staff was, awful. It's kind of a tie for me between him and MacAdoo on level of suck... lol
I am bullish enough on what I have seen of Judge and Jones, as well as how FA agency has been going. If we have a good draft I fell that we are going to have a good season. We certainly shall see.
Right. So what about Ryan Tannenhill? What about Dak Prescott and how he went from merely productive and one that didn't screw things up (2016 -17) to insanely productive and indispensable (2019 and 2020 prior to injury) or how about someone like Mayfield? Didn't look so good in year 2 did he. Year 3 he's the cat's pajamas again. Are you going to tell me that Bills fans haven't gone from liking a player to going full bloom love for Josh Allen from years 1-2 to year 3-4? Really.
Conversely, what about the young up starts that turn into chicken shit by year 3-4? it goes both ways. The first 3-4 years of a QBs lifeline can be wacky, to say the least.
I give up. Friggin exhausting and not worth the time. Say with a straight face that every QB is a finished product after 2 years and anyone with a clue will laugh you out of the room.
Are you sure about that Dak comment? He was 23/4 TD/INT in his first year at 77 QBR. Slight pullback to a 70 QBR his sophomore year (22/13). But those two years crush Jones's first two. I mean, it's not even close. Futhermore, Dak was a 4th round draft choice, not the 6th pick.
I sort of get Tannehill, but at least he flipped the script on TD/INTs year over year. First year, he was 12/13, but improved to 24/17 in his second year and kept his YPA around the same 6.7/8.
What about Mayfield? He threw 49 TDs passes his first two years combined and had a very healthy YPA over 7 each year (did pull back in year two). His QBRs aren't impressive but at least he was scoring points.
We've been down this path before with Josh Allen. He has improved every year with this third year the peak. But he was scoring points and was a HUGE asset in the run game. In his first two years, he scored 17 rushing TDs. And added 7 more in '20. While he's been erratic throwing, that running ability has to be included.
I'm not saying Jones can't improve. But I just don't feel great about it because his effort was so dull and listless in '20.
It was posted here a couple of days ago(not by me). When I get a chance to find it, I'll link it. Or you can take some initiative and find it on your own.
It has been posted along with his completion % on downfield throws.