LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
So you're saying Gettleman did a bad job putting the roster together. See, we can agree on something.
Well, at one point he had the best WR in football who hit every one of the superlatives your require, and you bitched Gettleman out for building a roster with him on it.
Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
See this is exactly why I firmly believe that on this site it is more important to some to be proven correct than if the team does well
I have no issue with people thinking DJ isn't the long term answer. I tend to agree. But unlike some, I hope I'm wrong. Some posters seem so intent on being right that they unconsciously are rooting for his failure &, in turn, the Giants failure. That bothers me.
All of us are sick of watching trash football. I, for one, hope DJ lights it up this fall & we make the playoffs. That's what's most important to me.
I have no issue with people thinking DJ isn't the long term answer. I tend to agree. But unlike some, I hope I'm wrong. Some posters seem so intent on being right that they unconsciously are rooting for his failure &, in turn, the Giants failure. That bothers me.
All of us are sick of watching trash football. I, for one, hope DJ lights it up this fall & we make the playoffs. That's what's most important to me.
You're probably right. I was being kind. I think some are actively rooting against him because of another chance to dunk on Gettleman. And I'm no DG fan either!
It's just weak sauce to root against a guy because you have some agenda. We should all want every Giant to succeed no?
If your reference Dak you should mention he had 3 all pro OL and the number one rushing team both those years. That type of production creates a lot of easy throws with often simple reads.
Mayfield has also had a lot more talent. Cleveland may have had the best OL in the league yet they were awfully gun shy about throwing downfield.
I like Allen. I’ll like him better if does it again with a reloaded Pats team and improved Dolphins and maybe the Jets as well. He has a lot more to prove imo.
I am definitely concerned with Jones but he has had a very poor supporting cast and with two offenses. We will learn a lot this year.
RE: RE: RE: If these are all strengths, then why didn’t Jones have a strong year?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
But why does Jones have a poor OL and poor WRs? Sure, Barkley got hurt but that’s what happens to a lot of RBs. Surely this isn’t the first RB to get injured and they have backups to step up. And in fact Gallman and the others did reasonably well.
Why fmic..why didn’t Jones’ strengths show through? And why aren’t those other offensive players better? Why?
I have no issue with people thinking DJ isn't the long term answer. I tend to agree. But unlike some, I hope I'm wrong. Some posters seem so intent on being right that they unconsciously are rooting for his failure &, in turn, the Giants failure. That bothers me.
All of us are sick of watching trash football. I, for one, hope DJ lights it up this fall & we make the playoffs. That's what's most important to me.
It's pretty clear. In fact I noticed when we signed Golladay there was a subluminal dash of what I'd call disappointment in some comments because they subconsciously realize there is a very good possibility he didn't throw many TDs last year because our offense as a whole was trash. I can't believe people spend a ton of time here in the offseason tbh, how many times can you rehash the same damn convo?
This covert secret agenda of hating players because Gettleman acquired them is the funniest thing I’ve read on BBI in years.
Where’s the secret hatred for Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, Lawrence, and Gates?
Is it a ruse to put you guys off our trail, or might it be the guys who play and perform consistently are appreciated?
I don’t think that you’re one of the posters they are referring to. You’re typically pretty reasonable and balanced. So it’s kind of weird that you used “Is it a ruse to put you guys off OUR trail..”. Who”s “OUR”?
RE: RE: RE: RE: If these are all strengths, then why didn’t Jones have a strong year?
We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
Terps, the one key factor you don't mention is how when it comes down to the playoffs Jackson stinks.
He has a 56% completion rate, 3 TD passes, 5 INTs, 1 rushing TD, 5 fumbles, and 1-2 in the playoffs. So while his regular season stats look good, in the real meaningful games he has been putrid
If your reference Dak you should mention he had 3 all pro OL and the number one rushing team both those years. That type of production creates a lot of easy throws with often simple reads.
Mayfield has also had a lot more talent. Cleveland may have had the best OL in the league yet they were awfully gun shy about throwing downfield.
I like Allen. I’ll like him better if does it again with a reloaded Pats team and improved Dolphins and maybe the Jets as well. He has a lot more to prove imo.
I am definitely concerned with Jones but he has had a very poor supporting cast and with two offenses. We will learn a lot this year.
Re: Dak. It is certainly true he stepped into a more positive situation. But QBR attempts to smooth that out by taking into account the situation of the each play - time to throw, the depth of the pass, the accuracy of the pass, if the QB ran the ball, quality of the opponent, etc. It's not a flawless approach, but I think it's one of the more reliable metric (YPA, too). So for Dak to produce 70+ QBRs in his first two years was pretty damn impressive.
I've never been a Mayfield guy. I thought he had bust written all over him. And as the number one pick he's under a lot more pressure. But he has impressed me. In his rookie year he finished 10th in YPA at 7.7, so he was going down field. And he's been 7+ in YPA for all three years. On the other hand, his QBR was in the 50s until it popped this year with a 72. So he's a mixed bag.
I thought Allen was tremendous this past year, and too many posters just don't get his progression right. He's been on the ascent from YR1. But he wasn't impressive in the playoffs this year so I think that is something to keep an eye on.
With the new additions, what are you expectations for Jones this year?
This covert secret agenda of hating players because Gettleman acquired them is the funniest thing I’ve read on BBI in years.
Where’s the secret hatred for Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, Lawrence, and Gates?
Is it a ruse to put you guys off our trail, or might it be the guys who play and perform consistently are appreciated?
I don’t think that you’re one of the posters they are referring to. You’re typically pretty reasonable and balanced. So it’s kind of weird that you used “Is it a ruse to put you guys off OUR trail..”. Who”s “OUR”?
Thanks BBS, back at you.
From time-to-time me criticizing players has been bucketed under the mysterious motives category by a certain poster : )
Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
See this is exactly why I firmly believe that on this site it is more important to some to be proven correct than if the team does well
If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
Terps, the one key factor you don't mention is how when it comes down to the playoffs Jackson stinks.
He has a 56% completion rate, 3 TD passes, 5 INTs, 1 rushing TD, 5 fumbles, and 1-2 in the playoffs. So while his regular season stats look good, in the real meaningful games he has been putrid
So if 4 games means Jackson sucks, can we use 26 games to ascertain that Jones REALLY sucks?
If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
That's an interesting point in your second paragraph. There is quite a bit of "score keeping" that goes on at BBI and it's mostly by those who find any criticism of the Giants to be an act of treason. If posters don't see the Giants doing well, despite reasoned analysis, they are viewed in the same light as investors shorting stocks. And unfortunately labeled as rooting against the team.
If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
That's an interesting point in your second paragraph. There is quite a bit of "score keeping" that goes on at BBI and it's mostly by those who find any criticism of the Giants to be an act of treason. If posters don't see the Giants doing well, despite reasoned analysis, they are viewed in the same light as investors shorting stocks. And unfortunately labeled as rooting against the team.
You describe it in a colorful way. I'd love to do a psych paper on this mentality.
If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
That's an interesting point in your second paragraph. There is quite a bit of "score keeping" that goes on at BBI and it's mostly by those who find any criticism of the Giants to be an act of treason. If posters don't see the Giants doing well, despite reasoned analysis, they are viewed in the same light as investors shorting stocks. And unfortunately labeled as rooting against the team.
I can never figure out if you model yourself after Eddie Haskell or if it’s the other way around.
I think people would be more excited about Jones if his first and second seasons were reversed.
I'm skeptical/down on Jones but I can easily see a scenario where he puts up above-average numbers this year. I think Garrett's offense was awful for what Jones does well.
I've watched too much Darnold for a Giants fan the past three years - I think Jones is easily better. I see more potential in Jones than I've ever seen in Darnold.
I think you are onto something with your first point. Jones flashed more in '19 and seemed to make more big plays. Aside from the big run versus Philly, I really can't recall any signature plays for Jones in '20. So if the seasons were flipped, the mood around here might indeed be more bullish.
We differ on Garrett. He's really setting up to be a fall guy. You don't call the gem he called against Tampa last year and say he doesn't what he's doing. So I'm putting the pullback with the offense in '20 in this order (1) Jones, (2) OL/Barkley injury and (3) new offense for everyone.
Darnold is a weird one for me. The "seeing ghosts" comment was a horrible red flag. But he does make some very high level throws that are indicative of some high level ability. And, of course, the Jet factor messes up a fair evaluation as well. The best thing that could happen for him is that he gets a new opportunity in Carolina.
I don't think Garrett is incompetent. And I should have been more clear, it looked to me like Garrett deviated from offenses he had in Dallas. I think Jones is always going to be a bit of a turnover machine and that Garrett's offense was 'game manager-esque' for the QB. That's not what Jones does well and I don't think he'll ever do it well. I abhor making the Eli comparisons, but Eli always turned the ball over a lot as well. Jones throws a good deep ball. Can run but doesn't make the seamless transition to running that Jackson/Wilson/Murray do. There's tools to work with.
I can see a case where the OL is near average and Jones is able to put it together with his improved weapons. I say this as someone who thinks Jones really, really sucked last year (caveats be damned, no one thinks he had good weapons, lol).
Talking about the state of the team is just a natural viewpoint. Nobody likes that the Giants haven’t done well lately, and the hope is that they will improve. But to point out their struggles, even daily, is not out of line. It’s what happens.
If you are a fan/poster that only wants to see optimistic thoughts or even balanced thoughts then you are on the wrong site. This board brings it all, so expect it. If you want to fight it...fine. But that is a silly battle because you know how that likely ends.
Post your opinion. Debate or even argue others. But to show such disdain in others that you have to resort to name calling, bullying, or ridiculing is simply telling us all how bad you are at even being a simple poster. I can make you seem like comic relief every day, but you actually do a pretty good job all by yourself...
We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
Terps, the one key factor you don't mention is how when it comes down to the playoffs Jackson stinks.
He has a 56% completion rate, 3 TD passes, 5 INTs, 1 rushing TD, 5 fumbles, and 1-2 in the playoffs. So while his regular season stats look good, in the real meaningful games he has been putrid
So if 4 games means Jackson sucks, can we use 26 games to ascertain that Jones REALLY sucks?
They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
See this is exactly why I firmly believe that on this site it is more important to some to be proven correct than if the team does well
If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
Are you looking for an apology or a Giants season of progress?
See the problem with your take is that there are a few on here looking for the former more than the latter, to the point where even if there is progress the negative will be seized on regardless.
They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
I'd rather have a guy who gets me to the playoffs than a guy who is 8-18. Jones hasn't even beaten a winning team, let alone been to the playoffs.
And for the record I'm not rooting for Jones to fail. However, I do acknowledge that Jones wasn't drafted by Judge. Jones was drafted through the Gettleman's flawed methodology...the very methodology that has ALL of us relieved that Judge seems to be gaining power in personnel decisions.
I am rooting for Jones to succeed. But I'm also rooting for the Giants to be open to the possibility (in my mind, the strong likelihood) that that is not going to happen.
Rooting for Jones to be good isn't going to make him good.
A recent 1st round QB, in his 2nd year, in a new system went:
7-6, 19TD/13INT, 6.9YPA — his offense struggled to score points.
Media, fans, etc. looked at the mediocre line, lack of fire power at the skill positions, a few injuries — pretty good chance he turns it around in year 3, right?
Moral of the story, there’s no guarantee. Sometimes it doesn’t work. Good to keep your eyes wide open as an organization, and not assume much.
They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
I'd rather have a guy who gets me to the playoffs than a guy who is 8-18. Jones hasn't even beaten a winning team, let alone been to the playoffs.
And for the record I'm not rooting for Jones to fail. However, I do acknowledge that Jones wasn't drafted by Judge. Jones was drafted through the Gettleman's flawed methodology...the very methodology that has ALL of us relieved that Judge seems to be gaining power in personnel decisions.
I am rooting for Jones to succeed. But I'm also rooting for the Giants to be open to the possibility (in my mind, the strong likelihood) that that is not going to happen.
Rooting for Jones to be good isn't going to make him good.
Ok, answer this honestly, how would you rate Jacksons surrounding cast vs Jones surrounding cast? We both know that Jacksons "team" is a lot better than what Jones had
And getting to the playoffs and shitting the bed is not what any fan wants out of their QB. Holy shit he was the QB of a 14-2 team and got his ass kicked at home in their very first playoff game. His stats in the playoffs are every bit as bad if not worse than Daniel Jones stats as far as TO's go in the playoffs and that's not even debatable
"His stats in the playoffs are every bit as bad if not worse than Daniel Jones stats as far as TO's go in the playoffs and that's not even debatable"
So Jackson has performed as poorly in four playoff games as Jones has in his 26 career starts?
Is that supposed to make us feel better about Jones?
Terps, you never answered my point about the surrounding cast.
And if you can't acknowledge the fact that in his most important games Jackson chokes like he's eaten a tortilla sideways then you're not being completely straight with regards to your take on him.
You want to use a 2-year QB's stats on a team with horrid personal. Ignore all the key injuries to his playmakers. Brush off his O-Line debacle. While at the same time claiming the second coming of Jesus during the regular season should be given a mulligan for his despicable postseason play, is disingenuous at best.
Why always assume the other offensive players are letting down the QB? I think it’s the other way around.
This is a facet of Jones game that we really haven’t talked much about. But I think it’s fair to say we haven’t seen Jones make anyone on the offense better than we expected them to be. And with every facet of the offense failing, it’s certainly fair to wonder if that’s because the most important piece of the unit isn’t up to the task. Since this is a thread about Darnold it’s probably fair to say that about him too. It’ll be an interesting season for both QBs. Sink or swim boys. Sink or swim.
Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
See this is exactly why I firmly believe that on this site it is more important to some to be proven correct than if the team does well
If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
Are you looking for an apology or a Giants season of progress?
See the problem with your take is that there are a few on here looking for the former more than the latter, to the point where even if there is progress the negative will be seized on regardless.
My initial reply was to a post saying he wants to "shove [Jones being the guy] in" our faces.
My point, which I believe has been proven, is that if DJ doesn't step up, there's not going to be posts saying "sorry for being trash towards you for the last 3 years, Terps/BW/etc"
The only difference between one "side" and what you accuse the other of is the results on the field, the motivation is the same.
I think he has a big hill to climb but he has been handed a very challenging set of circumstances. Take a look at the better QB's the last 20 years (Brady, Peyton, Eli, Rivers, Big Ben, etc.) What you will find is that in every case they had balanced offenses. Their coaches prioritized protecting them. Some played in run first offenses. Some were more balanced but they all had good running games. You have to help them fake it till they make it and each QB has their timeline getting to that point and it can take years imo. But you see signs. Right now we have not seen enough signs from Jones imo but I am being hopeful with improvements on the OL, WR, TE's we see more. Those handful of throws each game that make you go "We may have something here"
I think Jones really needs confidence. He seems unsure in the pocket. Is he panicked? Confused? Overwhelmed? Who knows. Set your feet, make a sound decision and let it rip downfield or check it down. I have concerns with his ability to make the deep throws to the sideline that have to be on a line and where true arm talent shows its worth. He needs to protect himself. Availability is a big factor as a QB.
I think the Giants staff is committed to helping him more. Heavy run offense, better down/distance (which has been the biggest factor for like a decade) and simplifying reads at times. Hopefully having more success gets him to the point of just trusting his reads and letting it rip. I hope it works out.
What happened to Brady when under pressure especially up the middle.
What happened to Mahomes when under pressure up the middle.
What happened to Montana under pressure.
We saw Eli's timing fall apart post 2012 under time pressure.
But some how Jones is supposed to overcome the reality of QB play and block, catch and throw?
I'm not convinced by Jones yet but that's because I don't know yet. I don't get many of the so called posts of obvious expertise and certainty.
And I don't see any apologies for accidentally being right or wrong or in between.
And I don't see guys who value being right over being balanced and waiting to see it play out. I see guys who love to argue more than be right, wise, open or balanced.
But that's just one person's opinion and nothing more
1) Jones' pocket movement skills are subpar, and not just for a starter, but for any competent QB with an NFL roster spot. He makes the OL look worse than it is because of both bad instincts and the fact that he hasn't responded to the years of training he has received. Note how much better the OL looked in the Seattle and Cleveland games with McCoy starting. The opposition registered 2.5 sacks across the two games - and the Browns D is good - for a sack rate of about 5% of drop backs. Jones averaged just under 10% in terms of sack rate as % of pass attempts. Both the eye test and the stats shows that McCoy - a well-trained pocket QB - really cut down on the level of pressure. Jones makes his OL look worse than they are.
2) Jones' timing is all off. I started paying attention to that after the controversy about that blown goal line pass where many posters thought Jones delivered the ball late. It's absolutely a flaw in Jones' game. Watch the footage - he is constantly delivering the ball a fraction of a second late. With the speed of NFL's secondary, that changes a run after catch situation into a contested catch or zero yards after reception situation. I think there are multiple causes behind Jones' problems in this area, which have all been covered, so fixing them isn't just a matter of improving in one area, it involves multiple fundamental changes.
3) Jones isn't a particularly accurate passer. He has his moments, but there are a fair number of passes that, even if they are recorded as on target in the advanced stats, sure don't make it easy on the receiver. Looked at statistically, though, Jones is not a plus-accuracy QB like Mahomes. That also needs work.
Wow, I am a Jones pessimist but putting together that list convinces me there are so many things he needs to dramatically improve on that the problems will be unsurmountable. He is simply not a good football player right now. Someone like Darius Slayton is just a much better player than Jones - so I get sensitive about all this blaming the skill players stuff.
but that OL pressure is also being caused by Jones' poor pocket skills. I'll use a big word - the Giants offensive failures are "overdetermined" and it's overoptimistic to think it's just the QB being let down rather than the other way around.
RE: I think Jones is making his supporting cast worse.
Why always assume the other offensive players are letting down the QB? I think it’s the other way around.
Can't agree with that. How many passes did he put right in the hands or the numbers of Evan Engram only for him to drop or tip off his fingers and end up as an INT? The supporting cast has been brutal for the most part.
I could not separate and correlate Jones from the growing pains in front of him. Times when Thomas, Zeitler, Gates or Hernandez or lemieux didn't get it fluctuate during the season with times Jones was just coming back or times when Shepard or Tate or Engram or Stayton or Barkley was not there physically or mentally.
It was a mess and important conclusions don't often come from staring at a bowl of angel hair pasta.
I agree Jones was sometimes an unindicted co conspirator in the mess but I can't claim enough isolated clear views to jump to conclusions like "he stinks" and "time to move on now"
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In comment 15214226 Jimmy Googs said:
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Again, the question is why?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
So you're saying Gettleman did a bad job putting the roster together. See, we can agree on something.
Well, at one point he had the best WR in football who hit every one of the superlatives your require, and you bitched Gettleman out for building a roster with him on it.
Quote:
Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
See this is exactly why I firmly believe that on this site it is more important to some to be proven correct than if the team does well
13
Or continue to play the fool.
Your choice.
Send any post you would like of you saying DG is doing a bad job. Any post.
Comic relief has now lost all sense of reality...
All of us are sick of watching trash football. I, for one, hope DJ lights it up this fall & we make the playoffs. That's what's most important to me.
All of us are sick of watching trash football. I, for one, hope DJ lights it up this fall & we make the playoffs. That's what's most important to me.
It's just weak sauce to root against a guy because you have some agenda. We should all want every Giant to succeed no?
Mayfield has also had a lot more talent. Cleveland may have had the best OL in the league yet they were awfully gun shy about throwing downfield.
I like Allen. I’ll like him better if does it again with a reloaded Pats team and improved Dolphins and maybe the Jets as well. He has a lot more to prove imo.
I am definitely concerned with Jones but he has had a very poor supporting cast and with two offenses. We will learn a lot this year.
Quote:
In comment 15214226 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
Again, the question is why?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
But why does Jones have a poor OL and poor WRs? Sure, Barkley got hurt but that’s what happens to a lot of RBs. Surely this isn’t the first RB to get injured and they have backups to step up. And in fact Gallman and the others did reasonably well.
Why fmic..why didn’t Jones’ strengths show through? And why aren’t those other offensive players better? Why?
Why?
All of us are sick of watching trash football. I, for one, hope DJ lights it up this fall & we make the playoffs. That's what's most important to me.
It's pretty clear. In fact I noticed when we signed Golladay there was a subluminal dash of what I'd call disappointment in some comments because they subconsciously realize there is a very good possibility he didn't throw many TDs last year because our offense as a whole was trash. I can't believe people spend a ton of time here in the offseason tbh, how many times can you rehash the same damn convo?
And amazingly, most of this conversation ha nothing to do with Sam Darnold
Where’s the secret hatred for Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, Lawrence, and Gates?
Is it a ruse to put you guys off our trail, or might it be the guys who play and perform consistently are appreciated?
Where’s the secret hatred for Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, Lawrence, and Gates?
Is it a ruse to put you guys off our trail, or might it be the guys who play and perform consistently are appreciated?
I don’t think that you’re one of the posters they are referring to. You’re typically pretty reasonable and balanced. So it’s kind of weird that you used “Is it a ruse to put you guys off OUR trail..”. Who”s “OUR”?
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In comment 15214230 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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In comment 15214226 Jimmy Googs said:
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Again, the question is why?
LOL. Because he had a poor OL, poor WR's and not much of a running game, especially as a receiving outlet.
But I'm assuming you knew that and just were trolling.
So you're saying Gettleman did a bad job putting the roster together. See, we can agree on something.
I actually have been saying that for awhile which makes it humorous when I'm called a Gettleman supporter.
.
Still waiting for all these remarks where you posted DG put together a bad roster.
Everybody will laugh at this ruse you have put on for years that you really weren’t a DG supporter. You really fooled us.
Waiting...
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
Terps, the one key factor you don't mention is how when it comes down to the playoffs Jackson stinks.
He has a 56% completion rate, 3 TD passes, 5 INTs, 1 rushing TD, 5 fumbles, and 1-2 in the playoffs. So while his regular season stats look good, in the real meaningful games he has been putrid
Mayfield has also had a lot more talent. Cleveland may have had the best OL in the league yet they were awfully gun shy about throwing downfield.
I like Allen. I’ll like him better if does it again with a reloaded Pats team and improved Dolphins and maybe the Jets as well. He has a lot more to prove imo.
I am definitely concerned with Jones but he has had a very poor supporting cast and with two offenses. We will learn a lot this year.
Re: Dak. It is certainly true he stepped into a more positive situation. But QBR attempts to smooth that out by taking into account the situation of the each play - time to throw, the depth of the pass, the accuracy of the pass, if the QB ran the ball, quality of the opponent, etc. It's not a flawless approach, but I think it's one of the more reliable metric (YPA, too). So for Dak to produce 70+ QBRs in his first two years was pretty damn impressive.
I've never been a Mayfield guy. I thought he had bust written all over him. And as the number one pick he's under a lot more pressure. But he has impressed me. In his rookie year he finished 10th in YPA at 7.7, so he was going down field. And he's been 7+ in YPA for all three years. On the other hand, his QBR was in the 50s until it popped this year with a 72. So he's a mixed bag.
I thought Allen was tremendous this past year, and too many posters just don't get his progression right. He's been on the ascent from YR1. But he wasn't impressive in the playoffs this year so I think that is something to keep an eye on.
With the new additions, what are you expectations for Jones this year?
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This covert secret agenda of hating players because Gettleman acquired them is the funniest thing I’ve read on BBI in years.
Where’s the secret hatred for Bradberry, Martinez, Ryan, Lawrence, and Gates?
Is it a ruse to put you guys off our trail, or might it be the guys who play and perform consistently are appreciated?
I don’t think that you’re one of the posters they are referring to. You’re typically pretty reasonable and balanced. So it’s kind of weird that you used “Is it a ruse to put you guys off OUR trail..”. Who”s “OUR”?
Thanks BBS, back at you.
From time-to-time me criticizing players has been bucketed under the mysterious motives category by a certain poster : )
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In comment 15213962 Johnny5 said:
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Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
See this is exactly why I firmly believe that on this site it is more important to some to be proven correct than if the team does well
If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
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We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
Terps, the one key factor you don't mention is how when it comes down to the playoffs Jackson stinks.
He has a 56% completion rate, 3 TD passes, 5 INTs, 1 rushing TD, 5 fumbles, and 1-2 in the playoffs. So while his regular season stats look good, in the real meaningful games he has been putrid
So if 4 games means Jackson sucks, can we use 26 games to ascertain that Jones REALLY sucks?
If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
That's an interesting point in your second paragraph. There is quite a bit of "score keeping" that goes on at BBI and it's mostly by those who find any criticism of the Giants to be an act of treason. If posters don't see the Giants doing well, despite reasoned analysis, they are viewed in the same light as investors shorting stocks. And unfortunately labeled as rooting against the team.
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If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
That's an interesting point in your second paragraph. There is quite a bit of "score keeping" that goes on at BBI and it's mostly by those who find any criticism of the Giants to be an act of treason. If posters don't see the Giants doing well, despite reasoned analysis, they are viewed in the same light as investors shorting stocks. And unfortunately labeled as rooting against the team.
You describe it in a colorful way. I'd love to do a psych paper on this mentality.
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If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
That's an interesting point in your second paragraph. There is quite a bit of "score keeping" that goes on at BBI and it's mostly by those who find any criticism of the Giants to be an act of treason. If posters don't see the Giants doing well, despite reasoned analysis, they are viewed in the same light as investors shorting stocks. And unfortunately labeled as rooting against the team.
I can never figure out if you model yourself after Eddie Haskell or if it’s the other way around.
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I think people would be more excited about Jones if his first and second seasons were reversed.
I'm skeptical/down on Jones but I can easily see a scenario where he puts up above-average numbers this year. I think Garrett's offense was awful for what Jones does well.
I've watched too much Darnold for a Giants fan the past three years - I think Jones is easily better. I see more potential in Jones than I've ever seen in Darnold.
I think you are onto something with your first point. Jones flashed more in '19 and seemed to make more big plays. Aside from the big run versus Philly, I really can't recall any signature plays for Jones in '20. So if the seasons were flipped, the mood around here might indeed be more bullish.
We differ on Garrett. He's really setting up to be a fall guy. You don't call the gem he called against Tampa last year and say he doesn't what he's doing. So I'm putting the pullback with the offense in '20 in this order (1) Jones, (2) OL/Barkley injury and (3) new offense for everyone.
Darnold is a weird one for me. The "seeing ghosts" comment was a horrible red flag. But he does make some very high level throws that are indicative of some high level ability. And, of course, the Jet factor messes up a fair evaluation as well. The best thing that could happen for him is that he gets a new opportunity in Carolina.
I don't think Garrett is incompetent. And I should have been more clear, it looked to me like Garrett deviated from offenses he had in Dallas. I think Jones is always going to be a bit of a turnover machine and that Garrett's offense was 'game manager-esque' for the QB. That's not what Jones does well and I don't think he'll ever do it well. I abhor making the Eli comparisons, but Eli always turned the ball over a lot as well. Jones throws a good deep ball. Can run but doesn't make the seamless transition to running that Jackson/Wilson/Murray do. There's tools to work with.
I can see a case where the OL is near average and Jones is able to put it together with his improved weapons. I say this as someone who thinks Jones really, really sucked last year (caveats be damned, no one thinks he had good weapons, lol).
If you are a fan/poster that only wants to see optimistic thoughts or even balanced thoughts then you are on the wrong site. This board brings it all, so expect it. If you want to fight it...fine. But that is a silly battle because you know how that likely ends.
Post your opinion. Debate or even argue others. But to show such disdain in others that you have to resort to name calling, bullying, or ridiculing is simply telling us all how bad you are at even being a simple poster. I can make you seem like comic relief every day, but you actually do a pretty good job all by yourself...
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In comment 15214026 Go Terps said:
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We only know what has occurred - Jones turns the ball over and struggles to get his team to 20 points. Jackson has won MVP and has his team averaging 30 points.
Question: if Jackson can be a great player in Baltimore but would be terrible with the Giants, what does that say about how the Giants are run and constructed?
It's an academic question, as I would bet my house that Mara/Gettleman wouldn't have drafted Jackson in any round to be the starting quarterback.
Terps, the one key factor you don't mention is how when it comes down to the playoffs Jackson stinks.
He has a 56% completion rate, 3 TD passes, 5 INTs, 1 rushing TD, 5 fumbles, and 1-2 in the playoffs. So while his regular season stats look good, in the real meaningful games he has been putrid
So if 4 games means Jackson sucks, can we use 26 games to ascertain that Jones REALLY sucks?
They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
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In comment 15214002 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 15213962 Johnny5 said:
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Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
See this is exactly why I firmly believe that on this site it is more important to some to be proven correct than if the team does well
If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
Are you looking for an apology or a Giants season of progress?
See the problem with your take is that there are a few on here looking for the former more than the latter, to the point where even if there is progress the negative will be seized on regardless.
We both know the answer to that
I'd rather have a guy who gets me to the playoffs than a guy who is 8-18. Jones hasn't even beaten a winning team, let alone been to the playoffs.
And for the record I'm not rooting for Jones to fail. However, I do acknowledge that Jones wasn't drafted by Judge. Jones was drafted through the Gettleman's flawed methodology...the very methodology that has ALL of us relieved that Judge seems to be gaining power in personnel decisions.
I am rooting for Jones to succeed. But I'm also rooting for the Giants to be open to the possibility (in my mind, the strong likelihood) that that is not going to happen.
Rooting for Jones to be good isn't going to make him good.
7-6, 19TD/13INT, 6.9YPA — his offense struggled to score points.
Media, fans, etc. looked at the mediocre line, lack of fire power at the skill positions, a few injuries — pretty good chance he turns it around in year 3, right?
Moral of the story, there’s no guarantee. Sometimes it doesn’t work. Good to keep your eyes wide open as an organization, and not assume much.
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They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
I'd rather have a guy who gets me to the playoffs than a guy who is 8-18. Jones hasn't even beaten a winning team, let alone been to the playoffs.
And for the record I'm not rooting for Jones to fail. However, I do acknowledge that Jones wasn't drafted by Judge. Jones was drafted through the Gettleman's flawed methodology...the very methodology that has ALL of us relieved that Judge seems to be gaining power in personnel decisions.
I am rooting for Jones to succeed. But I'm also rooting for the Giants to be open to the possibility (in my mind, the strong likelihood) that that is not going to happen.
Rooting for Jones to be good isn't going to make him good.
Ok, answer this honestly, how would you rate Jacksons surrounding cast vs Jones surrounding cast? We both know that Jacksons "team" is a lot better than what Jones had
And getting to the playoffs and shitting the bed is not what any fan wants out of their QB. Holy shit he was the QB of a 14-2 team and got his ass kicked at home in their very first playoff game. His stats in the playoffs are every bit as bad if not worse than Daniel Jones stats as far as TO's go in the playoffs and that's not even debatable
So Jackson has performed as poorly in four playoff games as Jones has in his 26 career starts?
Is that supposed to make us feel better about Jones?
So Jackson has performed as poorly in four playoff games as Jones has in his 26 career starts?
Is that supposed to make us feel better about Jones?
Terps, you never answered my point about the surrounding cast.
And if you can't acknowledge the fact that in his most important games Jackson chokes like he's eaten a tortilla sideways then you're not being completely straight with regards to your take on him.
You want to use a 2-year QB's stats on a team with horrid personal. Ignore all the key injuries to his playmakers. Brush off his O-Line debacle. While at the same time claiming the second coming of Jesus during the regular season should be given a mulligan for his despicable postseason play, is disingenuous at best.
It must be since you have nothing to counter it
This is a facet of Jones game that we really haven’t talked much about. But I think it’s fair to say we haven’t seen Jones make anyone on the offense better than we expected them to be. And with every facet of the offense failing, it’s certainly fair to wonder if that’s because the most important piece of the unit isn’t up to the task. Since this is a thread about Darnold it’s probably fair to say that about him too. It’ll be an interesting season for both QBs. Sink or swim boys. Sink or swim.
When DSlay was a rookie, Jones made him look pretty good. He sure tried to make Engram a weapon.
Is he making his OLine look bad? OK, there are times his internal clock needs to speed up but he's generally been under duress within 2 seconds.
How has DJones made his supporting cast look worse than they actually are?
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In comment 15214268 montanagiant said:
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In comment 15214002 Scooter185 said:
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In comment 15213962 Johnny5 said:
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Herbert had statistically maybe the best rookie year ever. Does that somehow translate to he is or will be better than any QB currently in the NFL?
Geezus.
Actually minus fumbles, Jones had a pretty damn good statistical year as a rookie. And on a worse team than SD. Is he better than Jones? Probably. Who cares?? The questions we have with Jones are because (even though he mostly corrected the fumbling) he regressed in year 2. The point most rational people make are that there are things that you can point to as contributing to that regression and that you would be a fool to discount.
Geezus this discussion is OLD. He may or may not be the guy but... G*D*mn! with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it makes me want him to shove it in your faces more and more.
And if DJ falls flat and we can definitively say he's not the guy after the 2021 season, will those of us "pessimists" get an apology?
See this is exactly why I firmly believe that on this site it is more important to some to be proven correct than if the team does well
If I'm wrong and DJ becomes a superstar I'll own up to it.
But Terps and others get a lot of abuse for their opinion on the state of the Giants, that's why I asked if there'd be an apology if the "pessimistic" outlook verifies.
Are you looking for an apology or a Giants season of progress?
See the problem with your take is that there are a few on here looking for the former more than the latter, to the point where even if there is progress the negative will be seized on regardless.
My initial reply was to a post saying he wants to "shove [Jones being the guy] in" our faces.
My point, which I believe has been proven, is that if DJ doesn't step up, there's not going to be posts saying "sorry for being trash towards you for the last 3 years, Terps/BW/etc"
The only difference between one "side" and what you accuse the other of is the results on the field, the motivation is the same.
I think Jones really needs confidence. He seems unsure in the pocket. Is he panicked? Confused? Overwhelmed? Who knows. Set your feet, make a sound decision and let it rip downfield or check it down. I have concerns with his ability to make the deep throws to the sideline that have to be on a line and where true arm talent shows its worth. He needs to protect himself. Availability is a big factor as a QB.
I think the Giants staff is committed to helping him more. Heavy run offense, better down/distance (which has been the biggest factor for like a decade) and simplifying reads at times. Hopefully having more success gets him to the point of just trusting his reads and letting it rip. I hope it works out.
What happened to Mahomes when under pressure up the middle.
What happened to Montana under pressure.
We saw Eli's timing fall apart post 2012 under time pressure.
But some how Jones is supposed to overcome the reality of QB play and block, catch and throw?
I'm not convinced by Jones yet but that's because I don't know yet. I don't get many of the so called posts of obvious expertise and certainty.
And I don't see any apologies for accidentally being right or wrong or in between.
And I don't see guys who value being right over being balanced and waiting to see it play out. I see guys who love to argue more than be right, wise, open or balanced.
But that's just one person's opinion and nothing more
1) Jones' pocket movement skills are subpar, and not just for a starter, but for any competent QB with an NFL roster spot. He makes the OL look worse than it is because of both bad instincts and the fact that he hasn't responded to the years of training he has received. Note how much better the OL looked in the Seattle and Cleveland games with McCoy starting. The opposition registered 2.5 sacks across the two games - and the Browns D is good - for a sack rate of about 5% of drop backs. Jones averaged just under 10% in terms of sack rate as % of pass attempts. Both the eye test and the stats shows that McCoy - a well-trained pocket QB - really cut down on the level of pressure. Jones makes his OL look worse than they are.
2) Jones' timing is all off. I started paying attention to that after the controversy about that blown goal line pass where many posters thought Jones delivered the ball late. It's absolutely a flaw in Jones' game. Watch the footage - he is constantly delivering the ball a fraction of a second late. With the speed of NFL's secondary, that changes a run after catch situation into a contested catch or zero yards after reception situation. I think there are multiple causes behind Jones' problems in this area, which have all been covered, so fixing them isn't just a matter of improving in one area, it involves multiple fundamental changes.
3) Jones isn't a particularly accurate passer. He has his moments, but there are a fair number of passes that, even if they are recorded as on target in the advanced stats, sure don't make it easy on the receiver. Looked at statistically, though, Jones is not a plus-accuracy QB like Mahomes. That also needs work.
Wow, I am a Jones pessimist but putting together that list convinces me there are so many things he needs to dramatically improve on that the problems will be unsurmountable. He is simply not a good football player right now. Someone like Darius Slayton is just a much better player than Jones - so I get sensitive about all this blaming the skill players stuff.
Can't agree with that. How many passes did he put right in the hands or the numbers of Evan Engram only for him to drop or tip off his fingers and end up as an INT? The supporting cast has been brutal for the most part.
I could not separate and correlate Jones from the growing pains in front of him. Times when Thomas, Zeitler, Gates or Hernandez or lemieux didn't get it fluctuate during the season with times Jones was just coming back or times when Shepard or Tate or Engram or Stayton or Barkley was not there physically or mentally.
It was a mess and important conclusions don't often come from staring at a bowl of angel hair pasta.
I agree Jones was sometimes an unindicted co conspirator in the mess but I can't claim enough isolated clear views to jump to conclusions like "he stinks" and "time to move on now"
Did the guy execute well on junky plans? Or execute poorly possibly winning strategies?
I'm going to suspect the former
"Well, if it ain't a mess it will do until the real mess gets here"