I agree. It's a mess where every player is likely underperforming. My point is that blindly attributing the problems to the skill players or the OL is reductive and ignores the observable way Jones is harming his teammates.
There's actually a psychological bias here - call it the "big man" syndrome where organizational failures are blamed on the supporting cast rather than the leader. It's good for me to be self-conscious about this bias and make sure I try to approach the situation analytically.
Do I know what the hell Garrets offensive approach really was before or after the season and injuries.
Did the guy execute well on junky plans? Or execute poorly possibly winning strategies?
I'm going to suspect the former
he famously botched some simple plays. The two point conversion at the end of the TB game comes to mind. excellent play design, awful throw. I'm not sure why you would blame Garrett, over Jones.
...I would suggest that there is likely several places/people that need to improve in order for the offense to progress. Jones included.
I agree with Bill that I don't see DJ as the no brainer "it's all his fault" guy.
I am really looking forward to 2021 because I have seen enough to know that Jones has all of the tangibles. Hopefully the processing improves, along with the personnel around him.
I agree that phenomenon exists in human reporting about organizational failures. The learned cynicism of a lifetime has us both being suspicious that is at play here as well.
I do agree he is not yet as well trained or sound on the basics as the NYG or Cutcliffe cult wishes us to accept as a truism.
My initial reply was to a post saying he wants to "shove [Jones being the guy] in" our faces.
My point, which I believe has been proven, is that if DJ doesn't step up, there's not going to be posts saying "sorry for being trash towards you for the last 3 years, Terps/BW/etc"
The only difference between one "side" and what you accuse the other of is the results on the field, the motivation is the same.
You clearly did not fully read my post and are basing what you are saying off of incorrect assumptions. This is EXACTLY what I said:
"with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it MAKES ME WANT HIM to shove it in your faces more and more."
My initial reply was to a post saying he wants to "shove [Jones being the guy] in" our faces.
My point, which I believe has been proven, is that if DJ doesn't step up, there's not going to be posts saying "sorry for being trash towards you for the last 3 years, Terps/BW/etc"
The only difference between one "side" and what you accuse the other of is the results on the field, the motivation is the same.
You clearly did not fully read my post and are basing what you are saying off of incorrect assumptions. This is EXACTLY what I said:
"with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it MAKES ME WANT HIM to shove it in your faces more and more."
Multiple times
And I read it wrong every single time. My apologies.
I agree. It's a mess where every player is likely underperforming. My point is that blindly attributing the problems to the skill players or the OL is reductive and ignores the observable way Jones is harming his teammates.
There's actually a psychological bias here - call it the "big man" syndrome where organizational failures are blamed on the supporting cast rather than the leader. It's good for me to be self-conscious about this bias and make sure I try to approach the situation analytically.
Those were good posts Cosmic, but I think the only part people might disagree with was how much of it was Jones vs. OL or skill players. I think we all see what you see to a degree, for sure which is why everyone has questions. Being optimistic about incremental improvement in blocking, skill position, and scheme helping Jones also improve incrementally is going to pay huge dividends (if it happens). We know the skill have been upgraded, but I'm still concerned with OL, Scheme and RB. But for sure I think every one of us can agree he has to show that he is better this year. I believe he was doing that right before the hamstring injury... but we shall see.
Do I know what the hell Garrets offensive approach really was before or after the season and injuries.
Did the guy execute well on junky plans? Or execute poorly possibly winning strategies?
I'm going to suspect the former
he famously botched some simple plays. The two point conversion at the end of the TB game comes to mind. excellent play design, awful throw. I'm not sure why you would blame Garrett, over Jones.
I agree but you are taking his worst game as a pro for an example. He has not ever been perfect but he was clearly having a BAD game that day. He was really off.
And I read it wrong every single time. My apologies.
Hey no sweat brother. Honestly I think this OP about Sam Darnold has brought forth the best reasonable discussion we have ever had about Jones on this site... lol
I think you are onto something with your first point. Jones flashed more in '19 and seemed to make more big plays. Aside from the big run versus Philly, I really can't recall any signature plays for Jones in '20. So if the seasons were flipped, the mood around here might indeed be more bullish.
We differ on Garrett. He's really setting up to be a fall guy. You don't call the gem he called against Tampa last year and say he doesn't what he's doing. So I'm putting the pullback with the offense in '20 in this order (1) Jones, (2) OL/Barkley injury and (3) new offense for everyone.
Darnold is a weird one for me. The "seeing ghosts" comment was a horrible red flag. But he does make some very high level throws that are indicative of some high level ability. And, of course, the Jet factor messes up a fair evaluation as well. The best thing that could happen for him is that he gets a new opportunity in Carolina.
I don't think Garrett is incompetent. And I should have been more clear, it looked to me like Garrett deviated from offenses he had in Dallas. I think Jones is always going to be a bit of a turnover machine and that Garrett's offense was 'game manager-esque' for the QB. That's not what Jones does well and I don't think he'll ever do it well. I abhor making the Eli comparisons, but Eli always turned the ball over a lot as well. Jones throws a good deep ball. Can run but doesn't make the seamless transition to running that Jackson/Wilson/Murray do. There's tools to work with.
I can see a case where the OL is near average and Jones is able to put it together with his improved weapons. I say this as someone who thinks Jones really, really sucked last year (caveats be damned, no one thinks he had good weapons, lol).
I'm with you on the Eli comp. It won't end but it should.
On the turnovers, I try not to dwell on that. It's a problem, but the bigger problem/challenge is getting the team to score more points. That's the job description. There are going to be turnovers - it's the nature of the game - but a lot of that can be offset with TDs.
It's a big year for Garrett, too, right. Probably more than Jones because if the offense doesn't shine than Garrett is very likely gone before Jones. But he's got more toys to work with and implement more of his offense. And I have a feeling he's going to put these players in the best place to succeed.
I think Jones really needs confidence. He seems unsure in the pocket. Is he panicked? Confused? Overwhelmed? Who knows. Set your feet, make a sound decision and let it rip downfield or check it down. I have concerns with his ability to make the deep throws to the sideline that have to be on a line and where true arm talent shows its worth. He needs to protect himself. Availability is a big factor as a QB.
Yeah, a QB without confidence is a QB without a job in the NFL. I don't think that's it. I think it's more of what Sy identified in the pre-draft process - indecision. And while that is troublesome, I do believe that can be coached.
Some pretty good points there in his posts above about how DJ makes the players around him less good. And the big man syndrome is almost certainly at play here. Good analysis I think.
I think it all gets back to Jones being slow in his processing. He threw a TD last season, it was a goal to go and I can’t remember the team or who he tossed the TD to but it was like a slow motion TD. The receiver was so open and Jones was so late with the throw that I yelling at the TV to throw the ball. Look, I know that doesn’t necessarily mean anything, maybe the open guy was his last read on the backside of the play. Idk. And hey, it was a TD. But my point is that the slowness is there even when he’s doing the right thing. I’ve seen every snap Jones has taken and I usually come away with the same thought which is that he’s got a clock that seems like it’s just a bit off. You see it when he runs and gets down just a second too late which results in a bone crushing hit. You see it when he moves too late in the pocket where he isn’t usually moving into pressure (that he doesn’t see) but he’s just moving out of pressure too late. Maybe that’s why he’s fumbling so much? You see it in his throws when he forces something into coverage you know he’s seeing. Idk, it isn’t always there because sometimes he makes a wow throw or a good solid routine play. But, I remember reading a lot of the pre draft reports (I read them after he was drafted) and they talked about his forcing throws and turning the ball over and I’m pretty sure his processing speed was questioned by several scouts. Btw, these were all reasons, at a second level (at best) football program which graded Jones out as a second or third round QB2.
A lot of Jones flaws in college were attributed to the lack of talent on his team. Well, maybe that lack of talent has followed Jones to the NFL? Or maybe it’s him? Anyway, we’ll root for him to turn it around!
They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
Problem with that is that I can think of one, only one, QB that fits the latter. Which is why I cringe when people try to make comparisons between Jones and Eli. Eli was sui generis.
I think Jones really needs confidence. He seems unsure in the pocket. Is he panicked? Confused? Overwhelmed? Who knows. Set your feet, make a sound decision and let it rip downfield or check it down. I have concerns with his ability to make the deep throws to the sideline that have to be on a line and where true arm talent shows its worth. He needs to protect himself. Availability is a big factor as a QB.
Yeah, a QB without confidence is a QB without a job in the NFL. I don't think that's it. I think it's more of what Sy identified in the pre-draft process - indecision. And while that is troublesome, I do believe that can be coached.
If it truly is indecision, then most of that is an experience, study and recognize the defense, sort of thing which is developmental and may as much a product of where you played in college as anything else.
Lots of really bad emoting. Certainly can't call it thinking. The discipline to ignore seems to get a workout every week.
Did make me hope the gods of the draft and secondary Fa cough up a wr-ol early and a power running back after that. Despite preferring to take the defense to the next level, the thread helped me see what an entangled mess the offense is in. OR was in.
Were not great in the playoffs...Peyton was carried in Denver. Jackson has exceeded expectations, stop it. Using Jackson to bash Terps is stupid. It just is. If had to bet, I would bet Jones never wins an NFL MVP award and I am higher on his ceiling than most.
I think Jones really needs confidence. He seems unsure in the pocket. Is he panicked? Confused? Overwhelmed? Who knows. Set your feet, make a sound decision and let it rip downfield or check it down. I have concerns with his ability to make the deep throws to the sideline that have to be on a line and where true arm talent shows its worth. He needs to protect himself. Availability is a big factor as a QB.
Yeah, a QB without confidence is a QB without a job in the NFL. I don't think that's it. I think it's more of what Sy identified in the pre-draft process - indecision. And while that is troublesome, I do believe that can be coached.
Decision making can be broken down into 4 fundamental steps:
Data
Analysis
Decide
Act
In sports especially this process happens in seconds or even fractions of a second. And as a QB this process has to happen twice, pre and post snap. So where in the process is DJ having trouble? Let's focus on post snap.
Data: who's open and who's not? This is what it is, and completely out of DJs control
Analysis: Now that he's looked at the field he has to calculate who he can make a pass to, should he run, etc. This is where recognition comes into play, because if he can recognize a situation for exams as "run" and doesn't need to think that allows him to decide sooner.
Decide: calculation is complete, which option is he going to throw to? Run? Take a sack?
Action: do it
Can thinking faster be coached? I'm not sure. Recognition can be though, a la Ted Williams and the numbers on the baseball. Obviously DJ was under pressure a lot so that compounds everything become he has even less time to go through this process.
Sure, but don't forget, you can adjust scheme to a QBs strengths and weaknesses. Don't put him into a position where he has to think too much or look to a 3rd and 4th read (if in fact this is an issue for him). It'll be interesting to see if the scheme changes at all this year. Man I just hope the OL takes a step forward and becomes more stable more than anything else. Anyway I hope to hell it's better this year and we start winning some damn games... lol
If you look at the numbers I posted above on Darnold's second season, in arguably a much worse situation, he was a more productive player. This is a great topic.
If you can't passionately debate how the quarterback is performing and comparing and contrasting him to his contemporaries, much of the fun of chatting football is lost.
Were not great in the playoffs...Peyton was carried in Denver. Jackson has exceeded expectations, stop it. Using Jackson to bash Terps is stupid. It just is. If had to bet, I would bet Jones never wins an NFL MVP award and I am higher on his ceiling than most.
LOL...pointing out his horrendous play in big games is exactly what needs to be discussed if someone is going to use him as an example vs Jones. Why should his Playoff games be off-limits?
Also, both Marino and Manning had much better Playoff stats than Jackson has with many more games to compare. In 18 playoff games, Marino had 32 TDs vs 24 Ints and a 77% QBR (9 points higher than Jacksons). Peyton has 40 TDs to 25 Ints over 27 playoff games and a QBR of 87.4%.
They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
Problem with that is that I can think of one, only one, QB that fits the latter. Which is why I cringe when people try to make comparisons between Jones and Eli. Eli was sui generis.
Indeed he was!
I don't know if Jones is the answer or not but he hasn't had the resources to show us one way or the other. Yes he has to work on the Turnovers but many of those can be blamed on the receivers or the O-Line.
They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
Problem with that is that I can think of one, only one, QB that fits the latter. Which is why I cringe when people try to make comparisons between Jones and Eli. Eli was sui generis.
Indeed he was!
I don't know if Jones is the answer or not but he hasn't had the resources to show us one way or the other. Yes he has to work on the Turnovers but many of those can be blamed on the receivers or the O-Line.
Hit submit too soon.
He finally has a good #1 WR and SB back with the young O-line having some experience under them and making some real progress during the 2nd half of last season. The coach is sold on him so lets see what he does
Decision making can be broken down into 4 fundamental steps:
Data
Analysis
Decide
Act
In sports especially this process happens in seconds or even fractions of a second. And as a QB this process has to happen twice, pre and post snap. So where in the process is DJ having trouble? Let's focus on post snap.
Data: who's open and who's not? This is what it is, and completely out of DJs control
Analysis: Now that he's looked at the field he has to calculate who he can make a pass to, should he run, etc. This is where recognition comes into play, because if he can recognize a situation for exams as "run" and doesn't need to think that allows him to decide sooner.
Decide: calculation is complete, which option is he going to throw to? Run? Take a sack?
Action: do it
Can thinking faster be coached? I'm not sure. Recognition can be though, a la Ted Williams and the numbers on the baseball. Obviously DJ was under pressure a lot so that compounds everything become he has even less time to go through this process.
Wouldn't the analysis part come first?
It seems to me the "data" part is a baked into the analysis. If DJ is going through his reads quickly and properly, he should be able to decide who is open and in the best position to make a play...
If you look at the numbers I posted above on Darnold's second season, in arguably a much worse situation, he was a more productive player. This is a great topic.
If you can't passionately debate how the quarterback is performing and comparing and contrasting him to his contemporaries, much of the fun of chatting football is lost.
This is a great thread and a great conversation.
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
If you look at the numbers I posted above on Darnold's second season, in arguably a much worse situation, he was a more productive player. This is a great topic.
If you can't passionately debate how the quarterback is performing and comparing and contrasting him to his contemporaries, much of the fun of chatting football is lost.
This is a great thread and a great conversation.
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
bw, I see your point but the same complaint can be applied to either side. Seriously, how many threads do you think have been made on BBI since the end of the 2020 season that slammed Jones that use the same tired arguments while not taking into account the variables that contributed to his stats?
It is no contest, I mean there are some on here that no matter the thread they somehow segue into a Jones rant. If he is not the guy we will know come this next season but holy shit let's at least hope for the best for the kid without the constant drumbeat of those who yearn to be proven right.
And our teams rushing average goes up, this doesn’t inflate our rushing yards per carry making our offensive Line rushing stats go threw the roof. That doesn’t make them look better? Wow.
They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
Problem with that is that I can think of one, only one, QB that fits the latter. Which is why I cringe when people try to make comparisons between Jones and Eli. Eli was sui generis.
Flacco was the other one. He was tremendous in the playoffs early in his career including a SB win.
Decision making can be broken down into 4 fundamental steps:
Data
Analysis
Decide
Act
In sports especially this process happens in seconds or even fractions of a second. And as a QB this process has to happen twice, pre and post snap. So where in the process is DJ having trouble? Let's focus on post snap.
Data: who's open and who's not? This is what it is, and completely out of DJs control
Analysis: Now that he's looked at the field he has to calculate who he can make a pass to, should he run, etc. This is where recognition comes into play, because if he can recognize a situation for exams as "run" and doesn't need to think that allows him to decide sooner.
Decide: calculation is complete, which option is he going to throw to? Run? Take a sack?
Action: do it
Can thinking faster be coached? I'm not sure. Recognition can be though, a la Ted Williams and the numbers on the baseball. Obviously DJ was under pressure a lot so that compounds everything become he has even less time to go through this process.
Wouldn't the analysis part come first?
It seems to me the "data" part is a baked into the analysis. If DJ is going through his reads quickly and properly, he should be able to decide who is open and in the best position to make a play...
I'm not the one who invented the DADA processes lol, but to be able to make a decision you need something (data) to analyze, and not just saying "I'm going to do X" regardless of what the data is
Of course it’s considered a great conversation....
when the people dominating it all agree with each other.
But I’m failing to see anybody have their opinion swayed, or the conversation moving forward in any meaningful way. In fact, all I see are people doubling down on their original stances.
when the people dominating it all agree with each other.
But I’m failing to see anybody have their opinion swayed, or the conversation moving forward in any meaningful way. In fact, all I see are people doubling down on their original stances.
It’s dressed up wheel spinning.
A "great conversation" that has nothing to do with Darnold!! Just another gathering of people looking to trash Jones and the GM.
RE: Of course it’s considered a great conversation....
when the people dominating it all agree with each other.
But I’m failing to see anybody have their opinion swayed, or the conversation moving forward in any meaningful way. In fact, all I see are people doubling down on their original stances.
It’s dressed up wheel spinning.
Ha for sure, no one's opinion will change. I'm rooting like hell for the guy to have a great year and solidify himself as the guy, but I would guess that there will be some that will never accept him as the guy. Not really any different than Eli in that regard (Yep. I threw out another Eli comparo... lol). I feel like our take is the most logical for sure Britt.
If you look at the numbers I posted above on Darnold's second season, in arguably a much worse situation, he was a more productive player. This is a great topic.
If you can't passionately debate how the quarterback is performing and comparing and contrasting him to his contemporaries, much of the fun of chatting football is lost.
This is a great thread and a great conversation.
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
I admittedly don't follow the Jets very closely. I was quite surprised when I looked up Darnold's second year numbers.
The Jets really focused on improving their biggest perceived weakness, offensive line. And in the second year of the system, third year in the NFL, Darnold nose dived.
A successful Giants career over the next decade. Just trying to view things objectively. And I’m very tired of the blame entirely going to the supporting cast.
I’m willing that concede that there are concerns to Jones’ game. All of the concerns that have been laid out incessantly here are valid concerns about Jones the player.
What I can’t concede is that the organization was incompetent in evaluating Jones the prospect. What I can’t concede is the Jones’ ceiling is already established. I can’t concede that Jones has shown zero indication in his skill set that he can ever be a successful starter in the NFL.
This will never be a great conversation until a very vocal minority here walk back some of those absolute statements.
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
bw, I see your point but the same complaint can be applied to either side. Seriously, how many threads do you think have been made on BBI since the end of the 2020 season that slammed Jones that use the same tired arguments while not taking into account the variables that contributed to his stats?
It is no contest, I mean there are some on here that no matter the thread they somehow segue into a Jones rant. If he is not the guy we will know come this next season but holy shit let's at least hope for the best for the kid without the constant drumbeat of those who yearn to be proven right.
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
There has been a major transition at play here for the past several...
years. Coaches, front office, QB’s, and complete roster turnover, not to mention Covid. Those are turbulent waters to navigate. We might be starting to get something with a little more stability/consistency.
If Jones is going to be our QB, that needs to happen this year. It’s time and the pressure is on. We will learn a lot about Jones this year.
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
bw, I see your point but the same complaint can be applied to either side. Seriously, how many threads do you think have been made on BBI since the end of the 2020 season that slammed Jones that use the same tired arguments while not taking into account the variables that contributed to his stats?
It is no contest, I mean there are some on here that no matter the thread they somehow segue into a Jones rant. If he is not the guy we will know come this next season but holy shit let's at least hope for the best for the kid without the constant drumbeat of those who yearn to be proven right.
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
You call Jones a huge investment as the #6 overall pick and then flippantly praise the Jets for moving on from Darnold, who was #3 overall and an additional 3 2nd rounders to get there, for pennies on the dollar.
Agreed that Jones will improve in the future. But a lot of value is being placed on a draft evaluation process that, because it was about the “face of the franchise”, was politicized.
Bw has been posting for several years that he viewed Jones as a 2nd round prospect. I was scoffing at his position until the middle of last season and now I understand it. I’m living and learning. When you draft a QB, that player has to have pro level field vision. If they don’t, you are just wasting your time. That’s why Jameis Winston, a player with awesome physical skills, is on the verge of being out if the league. And Jones has many deficiencies beyond field vision.
None of this is going to convince anyone. And it shouldn’t. We need to see what happens in September and October. But enough with the supporting cast criticism. Look how Colt McCoy was able to magically change the struggling Giants OL into a pretty decent pass blocking line. And McCoy is a career backup.
I’m willing that concede that there are concerns to Jones’ game. All of the concerns that have been laid out incessantly here are valid concerns about Jones the player.
What I can’t concede is that the organization was incompetent in evaluating Jones the prospect. What I can’t concede is the Jones’ ceiling is already established. I can’t concede that Jones has shown zero indication in his skill set that he can ever be a successful starter in the NFL.
This will never be a great conversation until a very vocal minority here walk back some of those absolute statements.
Why do they have to walk them back?
Can’t they be heard just like anybody else. Did it really ruin your take on the thread with this many posts? You don’t have to agree nor like the way it is stated but it is still fair game to think that way.
The Jets really focused on improving their biggest perceived weakness, offensive line. And in the second year of the system, third year in the NFL, Darnold nose dived.
Yes, Darnold finished very strong in '19. The Jets finished the second half of that year 6-2. And Darnold was 13/4 TD/INT, 2 rushing TDs, QBR 64, 7.3 YPA. So there some green arrow for the Big Green.
I really don't know what happened in '20, but it looks like the Jets got off to the slow start and things just snowballed. Darnold pressed to make things happen and couldn't get it done.
The best thing that could happen to Darnold happened - a change of scenery. Now it's up to him and that Carolina staff to start the rehab.
Agreed that Jones will improve in the future. But a lot of value is being placed on a draft evaluation process that, because it was about the “face of the franchise”, was politicized.
Bw has been posting for several years that he viewed Jones as a 2nd round prospect. I was scoffing at his position until the middle of last season and now I understand it. I’m living and learning. When you draft a QB, that player has to have pro level field vision. If they don’t, you are just wasting your time. That’s why Jameis Winston, a player with awesome physical skills, is on the verge of being out if the league. And Jones has many deficiencies beyond field vision.
None of this is going to convince anyone. And it shouldn’t. We need to see what happens in September and October. But enough with the supporting cast criticism. Look how Colt McCoy was able to magically change the struggling Giants OL into a pretty decent pass blocking line. And McCoy is a career backup.
I hear what you are saying but the praise for Colt McCoy for that Seattle game is a bit... much. He was 13 of 22 for 105 yards with 1 TD and 1 INT. We won 17-12... I give him credit for managing the game but much of the credit for that win was on the defense and Patrick Graham. Jones was coming off of two pretty good weeks and then had the hamstring. We don't really know how that game would have played out with Jones healthy, it's quite possible we win with Jones behind center healthy.
I still think Darnold has decent enough game to be a starter
in the league. Not sure I see a success story though. And I don’t really follow the beats or stories on the Jets on a steady basis but it always seemed like Darnold didn’t take his job as serious as he needed to. That may not be a fair comment but just my perception from afar.
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
You call Jones a huge investment as the #6 overall pick and then flippantly praise the Jets for moving on from Darnold, who was #3 overall and an additional 3 2nd rounders to get there, for pennies on the dollar.
I'm not flippantly praising. I'm praising the Jets for making a smart move. A divorce was needed for both sides. The Jets received a decent package and Darnold gets a chance to revitalize his career.
Hell, I was surprised the Jets got that much in return and have postulated the Giants could probably get a first for Jones this year...
I’m willing that concede that there are concerns to Jones’ game. All of the concerns that have been laid out incessantly here are valid concerns about Jones the player.
What I can’t concede is that the organization was incompetent in evaluating Jones the prospect. What I can’t concede is the Jones’ ceiling is already established. I can’t concede that Jones has shown zero indication in his skill set that he can ever be a successful starter in the NFL.
This will never be a great conversation until a very vocal minority here walk back some of those absolute statements.
Why do they have to walk them back?
Can’t they be heard just like anybody else. Did it really ruin your take on the thread with this many posts? You don’t have to agree nor like the way it is stated but it is still fair game to think that way.
Isn’t it?
Then what’s the point in continuing a conversation? If you were having this conversation with a stranger at a bar eventually you’d either bow out or agree to disagree and change the subject. But then imagine that every new subject kept being reverted back to the original subject?
Unless you’re suggesting that is what people should do, bow out and let the other likeminded individuals continue to agree with each other.
But is that a conversation or an echo chamber?
That is why it is important to walk back absolute opinions stated as fact. Because if you can’t or won’t, there is no point in having the conversation anymore.
That’s just crazy. It’s an opinion. You just can’t stand that things
There's actually a psychological bias here - call it the "big man" syndrome where organizational failures are blamed on the supporting cast rather than the leader. It's good for me to be self-conscious about this bias and make sure I try to approach the situation analytically.
Did the guy execute well on junky plans? Or execute poorly possibly winning strategies?
I'm going to suspect the former
he famously botched some simple plays. The two point conversion at the end of the TB game comes to mind. excellent play design, awful throw. I'm not sure why you would blame Garrett, over Jones.
I agree with Bill that I don't see DJ as the no brainer "it's all his fault" guy.
I am really looking forward to 2021 because I have seen enough to know that Jones has all of the tangibles. Hopefully the processing improves, along with the personnel around him.
I do agree he is not yet as well trained or sound on the basics as the NYG or Cutcliffe cult wishes us to accept as a truism.
My initial reply was to a post saying he wants to "shove [Jones being the guy] in" our faces.
My point, which I believe has been proven, is that if DJ doesn't step up, there's not going to be posts saying "sorry for being trash towards you for the last 3 years, Terps/BW/etc"
The only difference between one "side" and what you accuse the other of is the results on the field, the motivation is the same.
You clearly did not fully read my post and are basing what you are saying off of incorrect assumptions. This is EXACTLY what I said:
"with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it MAKES ME WANT HIM to shove it in your faces more and more."
Quote:
My initial reply was to a post saying he wants to "shove [Jones being the guy] in" our faces.
My point, which I believe has been proven, is that if DJ doesn't step up, there's not going to be posts saying "sorry for being trash towards you for the last 3 years, Terps/BW/etc"
The only difference between one "side" and what you accuse the other of is the results on the field, the motivation is the same.
You clearly did not fully read my post and are basing what you are saying off of incorrect assumptions. This is EXACTLY what I said:
"with every post from the know-it-all pessimists that "he sucks and will never be the guy" it MAKES ME WANT HIM to shove it in your faces more and more."
Multiple times
And I read it wrong every single time. My apologies.
There's actually a psychological bias here - call it the "big man" syndrome where organizational failures are blamed on the supporting cast rather than the leader. It's good for me to be self-conscious about this bias and make sure I try to approach the situation analytically.
Those were good posts Cosmic, but I think the only part people might disagree with was how much of it was Jones vs. OL or skill players. I think we all see what you see to a degree, for sure which is why everyone has questions. Being optimistic about incremental improvement in blocking, skill position, and scheme helping Jones also improve incrementally is going to pay huge dividends (if it happens). We know the skill have been upgraded, but I'm still concerned with OL, Scheme and RB. But for sure I think every one of us can agree he has to show that he is better this year. I believe he was doing that right before the hamstring injury... but we shall see.
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Do I know what the hell Garrets offensive approach really was before or after the season and injuries.
Did the guy execute well on junky plans? Or execute poorly possibly winning strategies?
I'm going to suspect the former
he famously botched some simple plays. The two point conversion at the end of the TB game comes to mind. excellent play design, awful throw. I'm not sure why you would blame Garrett, over Jones.
I agree but you are taking his worst game as a pro for an example. He has not ever been perfect but he was clearly having a BAD game that day. He was really off.
Multiple times
And I read it wrong every single time. My apologies.
Hey no sweat brother. Honestly I think this OP about Sam Darnold has brought forth the best reasonable discussion we have ever had about Jones on this site... lol
I think you are onto something with your first point. Jones flashed more in '19 and seemed to make more big plays. Aside from the big run versus Philly, I really can't recall any signature plays for Jones in '20. So if the seasons were flipped, the mood around here might indeed be more bullish.
We differ on Garrett. He's really setting up to be a fall guy. You don't call the gem he called against Tampa last year and say he doesn't what he's doing. So I'm putting the pullback with the offense in '20 in this order (1) Jones, (2) OL/Barkley injury and (3) new offense for everyone.
Darnold is a weird one for me. The "seeing ghosts" comment was a horrible red flag. But he does make some very high level throws that are indicative of some high level ability. And, of course, the Jet factor messes up a fair evaluation as well. The best thing that could happen for him is that he gets a new opportunity in Carolina.
I don't think Garrett is incompetent. And I should have been more clear, it looked to me like Garrett deviated from offenses he had in Dallas. I think Jones is always going to be a bit of a turnover machine and that Garrett's offense was 'game manager-esque' for the QB. That's not what Jones does well and I don't think he'll ever do it well. I abhor making the Eli comparisons, but Eli always turned the ball over a lot as well. Jones throws a good deep ball. Can run but doesn't make the seamless transition to running that Jackson/Wilson/Murray do. There's tools to work with.
I can see a case where the OL is near average and Jones is able to put it together with his improved weapons. I say this as someone who thinks Jones really, really sucked last year (caveats be damned, no one thinks he had good weapons, lol).
I'm with you on the Eli comp. It won't end but it should.
On the turnovers, I try not to dwell on that. It's a problem, but the bigger problem/challenge is getting the team to score more points. That's the job description. There are going to be turnovers - it's the nature of the game - but a lot of that can be offset with TDs.
It's a big year for Garrett, too, right. Probably more than Jones because if the offense doesn't shine than Garrett is very likely gone before Jones. But he's got more toys to work with and implement more of his offense. And I have a feeling he's going to put these players in the best place to succeed.
I think Jones really needs confidence. He seems unsure in the pocket. Is he panicked? Confused? Overwhelmed? Who knows. Set your feet, make a sound decision and let it rip downfield or check it down. I have concerns with his ability to make the deep throws to the sideline that have to be on a line and where true arm talent shows its worth. He needs to protect himself. Availability is a big factor as a QB.
Yeah, a QB without confidence is a QB without a job in the NFL. I don't think that's it. I think it's more of what Sy identified in the pre-draft process - indecision. And while that is troublesome, I do believe that can be coached.
I think it all gets back to Jones being slow in his processing. He threw a TD last season, it was a goal to go and I can’t remember the team or who he tossed the TD to but it was like a slow motion TD. The receiver was so open and Jones was so late with the throw that I yelling at the TV to throw the ball. Look, I know that doesn’t necessarily mean anything, maybe the open guy was his last read on the backside of the play. Idk. And hey, it was a TD. But my point is that the slowness is there even when he’s doing the right thing. I’ve seen every snap Jones has taken and I usually come away with the same thought which is that he’s got a clock that seems like it’s just a bit off. You see it when he runs and gets down just a second too late which results in a bone crushing hit. You see it when he moves too late in the pocket where he isn’t usually moving into pressure (that he doesn’t see) but he’s just moving out of pressure too late. Maybe that’s why he’s fumbling so much? You see it in his throws when he forces something into coverage you know he’s seeing. Idk, it isn’t always there because sometimes he makes a wow throw or a good solid routine play. But, I remember reading a lot of the pre draft reports (I read them after he was drafted) and they talked about his forcing throws and turning the ball over and I’m pretty sure his processing speed was questioned by several scouts. Btw, these were all reasons, at a second level (at best) football program which graded Jones out as a second or third round QB2.
A lot of Jones flaws in college were attributed to the lack of talent on his team. Well, maybe that lack of talent has followed Jones to the NFL? Or maybe it’s him? Anyway, we’ll root for him to turn it around!
They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
Problem with that is that I can think of one, only one, QB that fits the latter. Which is why I cringe when people try to make comparisons between Jones and Eli. Eli was sui generis.
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I think Jones really needs confidence. He seems unsure in the pocket. Is he panicked? Confused? Overwhelmed? Who knows. Set your feet, make a sound decision and let it rip downfield or check it down. I have concerns with his ability to make the deep throws to the sideline that have to be on a line and where true arm talent shows its worth. He needs to protect himself. Availability is a big factor as a QB.
Yeah, a QB without confidence is a QB without a job in the NFL. I don't think that's it. I think it's more of what Sy identified in the pre-draft process - indecision. And while that is troublesome, I do believe that can be coached.
If it truly is indecision, then most of that is an experience, study and recognize the defense, sort of thing which is developmental and may as much a product of where you played in college as anything else.
Lots of really bad emoting. Certainly can't call it thinking. The discipline to ignore seems to get a workout every week.
Did make me hope the gods of the draft and secondary Fa cough up a wr-ol early and a power running back after that. Despite preferring to take the defense to the next level, the thread helped me see what an entangled mess the offense is in. OR was in.
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I think Jones really needs confidence. He seems unsure in the pocket. Is he panicked? Confused? Overwhelmed? Who knows. Set your feet, make a sound decision and let it rip downfield or check it down. I have concerns with his ability to make the deep throws to the sideline that have to be on a line and where true arm talent shows its worth. He needs to protect himself. Availability is a big factor as a QB.
Yeah, a QB without confidence is a QB without a job in the NFL. I don't think that's it. I think it's more of what Sy identified in the pre-draft process - indecision. And while that is troublesome, I do believe that can be coached.
Decision making can be broken down into 4 fundamental steps:
Data
Analysis
Decide
Act
In sports especially this process happens in seconds or even fractions of a second. And as a QB this process has to happen twice, pre and post snap. So where in the process is DJ having trouble? Let's focus on post snap.
Data: who's open and who's not? This is what it is, and completely out of DJs control
Analysis: Now that he's looked at the field he has to calculate who he can make a pass to, should he run, etc. This is where recognition comes into play, because if he can recognize a situation for exams as "run" and doesn't need to think that allows him to decide sooner.
Decide: calculation is complete, which option is he going to throw to? Run? Take a sack?
Action: do it
Can thinking faster be coached? I'm not sure. Recognition can be though, a la Ted Williams and the numbers on the baseball. Obviously DJ was under pressure a lot so that compounds everything become he has even less time to go through this process.
Crash Davis
If you look at the numbers I posted above on Darnold's second season, in arguably a much worse situation, he was a more productive player. This is a great topic.
If you can't passionately debate how the quarterback is performing and comparing and contrasting him to his contemporaries, much of the fun of chatting football is lost.
This is a great thread and a great conversation.
LOL...pointing out his horrendous play in big games is exactly what needs to be discussed if someone is going to use him as an example vs Jones. Why should his Playoff games be off-limits?
Also, both Marino and Manning had much better Playoff stats than Jackson has with many more games to compare. In 18 playoff games, Marino had 32 TDs vs 24 Ints and a 77% QBR (9 points higher than Jacksons). Peyton has 40 TDs to 25 Ints over 27 playoff games and a QBR of 87.4%.
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They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
Problem with that is that I can think of one, only one, QB that fits the latter. Which is why I cringe when people try to make comparisons between Jones and Eli. Eli was sui generis.
Indeed he was!
I don't know if Jones is the answer or not but he hasn't had the resources to show us one way or the other. Yes he has to work on the Turnovers but many of those can be blamed on the receivers or the O-Line.
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In comment 15214412 montanagiant said:
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They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
Problem with that is that I can think of one, only one, QB that fits the latter. Which is why I cringe when people try to make comparisons between Jones and Eli. Eli was sui generis.
Indeed he was!
I don't know if Jones is the answer or not but he hasn't had the resources to show us one way or the other. Yes he has to work on the Turnovers but many of those can be blamed on the receivers or the O-Line.
Hit submit too soon.
He finally has a good #1 WR and SB back with the young O-line having some experience under them and making some real progress during the 2nd half of last season. The coach is sold on him so lets see what he does
Decision making can be broken down into 4 fundamental steps:
Data
Analysis
Decide
Act
In sports especially this process happens in seconds or even fractions of a second. And as a QB this process has to happen twice, pre and post snap. So where in the process is DJ having trouble? Let's focus on post snap.
Data: who's open and who's not? This is what it is, and completely out of DJs control
Analysis: Now that he's looked at the field he has to calculate who he can make a pass to, should he run, etc. This is where recognition comes into play, because if he can recognize a situation for exams as "run" and doesn't need to think that allows him to decide sooner.
Decide: calculation is complete, which option is he going to throw to? Run? Take a sack?
Action: do it
Can thinking faster be coached? I'm not sure. Recognition can be though, a la Ted Williams and the numbers on the baseball. Obviously DJ was under pressure a lot so that compounds everything become he has even less time to go through this process.
Wouldn't the analysis part come first?
It seems to me the "data" part is a baked into the analysis. If DJ is going through his reads quickly and properly, he should be able to decide who is open and in the best position to make a play...
If you look at the numbers I posted above on Darnold's second season, in arguably a much worse situation, he was a more productive player. This is a great topic.
If you can't passionately debate how the quarterback is performing and comparing and contrasting him to his contemporaries, much of the fun of chatting football is lost.
This is a great thread and a great conversation.
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
Quote:
I love these debates -- honestly.
If you look at the numbers I posted above on Darnold's second season, in arguably a much worse situation, he was a more productive player. This is a great topic.
If you can't passionately debate how the quarterback is performing and comparing and contrasting him to his contemporaries, much of the fun of chatting football is lost.
This is a great thread and a great conversation.
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
bw, I see your point but the same complaint can be applied to either side. Seriously, how many threads do you think have been made on BBI since the end of the 2020 season that slammed Jones that use the same tired arguments while not taking into account the variables that contributed to his stats?
It is no contest, I mean there are some on here that no matter the thread they somehow segue into a Jones rant. If he is not the guy we will know come this next season but holy shit let's at least hope for the best for the kid without the constant drumbeat of those who yearn to be proven right.
Quote:
They're the 4 biggest games of his career. Would you rather a regular-season stud who bombs in the playoffs or an avg QB who excels in the playoffs?
We both know the answer to that
Problem with that is that I can think of one, only one, QB that fits the latter. Which is why I cringe when people try to make comparisons between Jones and Eli. Eli was sui generis.
Flacco was the other one. He was tremendous in the playoffs early in his career including a SB win.
Quote:
Decision making can be broken down into 4 fundamental steps:
Data
Analysis
Decide
Act
In sports especially this process happens in seconds or even fractions of a second. And as a QB this process has to happen twice, pre and post snap. So where in the process is DJ having trouble? Let's focus on post snap.
Data: who's open and who's not? This is what it is, and completely out of DJs control
Analysis: Now that he's looked at the field he has to calculate who he can make a pass to, should he run, etc. This is where recognition comes into play, because if he can recognize a situation for exams as "run" and doesn't need to think that allows him to decide sooner.
Decide: calculation is complete, which option is he going to throw to? Run? Take a sack?
Action: do it
Can thinking faster be coached? I'm not sure. Recognition can be though, a la Ted Williams and the numbers on the baseball. Obviously DJ was under pressure a lot so that compounds everything become he has even less time to go through this process.
Wouldn't the analysis part come first?
It seems to me the "data" part is a baked into the analysis. If DJ is going through his reads quickly and properly, he should be able to decide who is open and in the best position to make a play...
I'm not the one who invented the DADA processes lol, but to be able to make a decision you need something (data) to analyze, and not just saying "I'm going to do X" regardless of what the data is
But I’m failing to see anybody have their opinion swayed, or the conversation moving forward in any meaningful way. In fact, all I see are people doubling down on their original stances.
It’s dressed up wheel spinning.
What are u looking for anyway?
But I’m failing to see anybody have their opinion swayed, or the conversation moving forward in any meaningful way. In fact, all I see are people doubling down on their original stances.
It’s dressed up wheel spinning.
A "great conversation" that has nothing to do with Darnold!! Just another gathering of people looking to trash Jones and the GM.
But I’m failing to see anybody have their opinion swayed, or the conversation moving forward in any meaningful way. In fact, all I see are people doubling down on their original stances.
It’s dressed up wheel spinning.
Ha for sure, no one's opinion will change. I'm rooting like hell for the guy to have a great year and solidify himself as the guy, but I would guess that there will be some that will never accept him as the guy. Not really any different than Eli in that regard (Yep. I threw out another Eli comparo... lol). I feel like our take is the most logical for sure Britt.
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I love these debates -- honestly.
If you look at the numbers I posted above on Darnold's second season, in arguably a much worse situation, he was a more productive player. This is a great topic.
If you can't passionately debate how the quarterback is performing and comparing and contrasting him to his contemporaries, much of the fun of chatting football is lost.
This is a great thread and a great conversation.
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
I admittedly don't follow the Jets very closely. I was quite surprised when I looked up Darnold's second year numbers.
7-6 record, 62% completion, 19TD:13INT, 11 Fumbles.
The Jets really focused on improving their biggest perceived weakness, offensive line. And in the second year of the system, third year in the NFL, Darnold nose dived.
What I can’t concede is that the organization was incompetent in evaluating Jones the prospect. What I can’t concede is the Jones’ ceiling is already established. I can’t concede that Jones has shown zero indication in his skill set that he can ever be a successful starter in the NFL.
This will never be a great conversation until a very vocal minority here walk back some of those absolute statements.
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
bw, I see your point but the same complaint can be applied to either side. Seriously, how many threads do you think have been made on BBI since the end of the 2020 season that slammed Jones that use the same tired arguments while not taking into account the variables that contributed to his stats?
It is no contest, I mean there are some on here that no matter the thread they somehow segue into a Jones rant. If he is not the guy we will know come this next season but holy shit let's at least hope for the best for the kid without the constant drumbeat of those who yearn to be proven right.
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
If Jones is going to be our QB, that needs to happen this year. It’s time and the pressure is on. We will learn a lot about Jones this year.
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In comment 15215452 bw in dc said:
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
bw, I see your point but the same complaint can be applied to either side. Seriously, how many threads do you think have been made on BBI since the end of the 2020 season that slammed Jones that use the same tired arguments while not taking into account the variables that contributed to his stats?
It is no contest, I mean there are some on here that no matter the thread they somehow segue into a Jones rant. If he is not the guy we will know come this next season but holy shit let's at least hope for the best for the kid without the constant drumbeat of those who yearn to be proven right.
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
You call Jones a huge investment as the #6 overall pick and then flippantly praise the Jets for moving on from Darnold, who was #3 overall and an additional 3 2nd rounders to get there, for pennies on the dollar.
What in the world is going to happen next on this site...
Bw has been posting for several years that he viewed Jones as a 2nd round prospect. I was scoffing at his position until the middle of last season and now I understand it. I’m living and learning. When you draft a QB, that player has to have pro level field vision. If they don’t, you are just wasting your time. That’s why Jameis Winston, a player with awesome physical skills, is on the verge of being out if the league. And Jones has many deficiencies beyond field vision.
None of this is going to convince anyone. And it shouldn’t. We need to see what happens in September and October. But enough with the supporting cast criticism. Look how Colt McCoy was able to magically change the struggling Giants OL into a pretty decent pass blocking line. And McCoy is a career backup.
What I can’t concede is that the organization was incompetent in evaluating Jones the prospect. What I can’t concede is the Jones’ ceiling is already established. I can’t concede that Jones has shown zero indication in his skill set that he can ever be a successful starter in the NFL.
This will never be a great conversation until a very vocal minority here walk back some of those absolute statements.
Why do they have to walk them back?
Can’t they be heard just like anybody else. Did it really ruin your take on the thread with this many posts? You don’t have to agree nor like the way it is stated but it is still fair game to think that way.
Isn’t it?
I admittedly don't follow the Jets very closely. I was quite surprised when I looked up Darnold's second year numbers.
7-6 record, 62% completion, 19TD:13INT, 11 Fumbles.
The Jets really focused on improving their biggest perceived weakness, offensive line. And in the second year of the system, third year in the NFL, Darnold nose dived.
Yes, Darnold finished very strong in '19. The Jets finished the second half of that year 6-2. And Darnold was 13/4 TD/INT, 2 rushing TDs, QBR 64, 7.3 YPA. So there some green arrow for the Big Green.
I really don't know what happened in '20, but it looks like the Jets got off to the slow start and things just snowballed. Darnold pressed to make things happen and couldn't get it done.
The best thing that could happen to Darnold happened - a change of scenery. Now it's up to him and that Carolina staff to start the rehab.
Bw has been posting for several years that he viewed Jones as a 2nd round prospect. I was scoffing at his position until the middle of last season and now I understand it. I’m living and learning. When you draft a QB, that player has to have pro level field vision. If they don’t, you are just wasting your time. That’s why Jameis Winston, a player with awesome physical skills, is on the verge of being out if the league. And Jones has many deficiencies beyond field vision.
None of this is going to convince anyone. And it shouldn’t. We need to see what happens in September and October. But enough with the supporting cast criticism. Look how Colt McCoy was able to magically change the struggling Giants OL into a pretty decent pass blocking line. And McCoy is a career backup.
I hear what you are saying but the praise for Colt McCoy for that Seattle game is a bit... much. He was 13 of 22 for 105 yards with 1 TD and 1 INT. We won 17-12... I give him credit for managing the game but much of the credit for that win was on the defense and Patrick Graham. Jones was coming off of two pretty good weeks and then had the hamstring. We don't really know how that game would have played out with Jones healthy, it's quite possible we win with Jones behind center healthy.
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
You call Jones a huge investment as the #6 overall pick and then flippantly praise the Jets for moving on from Darnold, who was #3 overall and an additional 3 2nd rounders to get there, for pennies on the dollar.
I'm not flippantly praising. I'm praising the Jets for making a smart move. A divorce was needed for both sides. The Jets received a decent package and Darnold gets a chance to revitalize his career.
Hell, I was surprised the Jets got that much in return and have postulated the Giants could probably get a first for Jones this year...
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I’m willing that concede that there are concerns to Jones’ game. All of the concerns that have been laid out incessantly here are valid concerns about Jones the player.
What I can’t concede is that the organization was incompetent in evaluating Jones the prospect. What I can’t concede is the Jones’ ceiling is already established. I can’t concede that Jones has shown zero indication in his skill set that he can ever be a successful starter in the NFL.
This will never be a great conversation until a very vocal minority here walk back some of those absolute statements.
Why do they have to walk them back?
Can’t they be heard just like anybody else. Did it really ruin your take on the thread with this many posts? You don’t have to agree nor like the way it is stated but it is still fair game to think that way.
Isn’t it?
Then what’s the point in continuing a conversation? If you were having this conversation with a stranger at a bar eventually you’d either bow out or agree to disagree and change the subject. But then imagine that every new subject kept being reverted back to the original subject?
Unless you’re suggesting that is what people should do, bow out and let the other likeminded individuals continue to agree with each other.
But is that a conversation or an echo chamber?
That is why it is important to walk back absolute opinions stated as fact. Because if you can’t or won’t, there is no point in having the conversation anymore.
And yet you are waiting for them to take it back? And you still reply to their posts? What for?