Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
bw, I see your point but the same complaint can be applied to either side. Seriously, how many threads do you think have been made on BBI since the end of the 2020 season that slammed Jones that use the same tired arguments while not taking into account the variables that contributed to his stats?
It is no contest, I mean there are some on here that no matter the thread they somehow segue into a Jones rant. If he is not the guy we will know come this next season but holy shit let's at least hope for the best for the kid without the constant drumbeat of those who yearn to be proven right.
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
Re McCoy and the Seahawks, I’m not crediting him for the win. I’m saying that the two games he started had the OL pass blocking much better than with Jones behind center. It’s a small controlled experiment. And it suggests that Jones pocket skills are so poor that it is him letting down his teammates, not the other way around.
So how would you be able to tell if Jones were an under talented player who wasn’t good enough to be an NFL starter? I mean, that is a possibility, right?
Begging the question = assuming your conclusion in making the argument.
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
You call Jones a huge investment as the #6 overall pick and then flippantly praise the Jets for moving on from Darnold, who was #3 overall and an additional 3 2nd rounders to get there, for pennies on the dollar.
I'm not flippantly praising. I'm praising the Jets for making a smart move. A divorce was needed for both sides. The Jets received a decent package and Darnold gets a chance to revitalize his career.
Hell, I was surprised the Jets got that much in return and have postulated the Giants could probably get a first for Jones this year...
Huh? How did they get decent value? They traded THREE 2nd round picks to get him, then trade him for a 6th this year and a 2nd and 4th next year. That's a terrible ROI.
So how would you be able to tell if Jones were an under talented player who wasn’t good enough to be an NFL starter? I mean, that is a possibility, right?
Begging the question = assuming your conclusion in making the argument.
You really can't until he is at least given a somewhat average surrounding cast. Given the facts of what he had to work with last year, I am surprised at what he did accomplish
I'm not flippantly praising. I'm praising the Jets for making a smart move. A divorce was needed for both sides. The Jets received a decent package and Darnold gets a chance to revitalize his career.
Hell, I was surprised the Jets got that much in return and have postulated the Giants could probably get a first for Jones this year...
Huh? How did they get decent value? They traded THREE 2nd round picks to get him, then trade him for a 6th this year and a 2nd and 4th next year. That's a terrible ROI.
IMV, the Jets got decent value for Darnold because I didn't think they could unload him for more than a 3rd or 4th. So to get a multiple pick package with a 2nd, 4th and 6th seems like decent value for a QB who is obviously lost at the position right now...
What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
I would love to know that answer
You're not going to get much push back that Gettleman constructed a deplorable offensive cast last year. I suspect if you go back to last offseason, you'll see plenty of chatter between BW, Terps, Googs, and me fearful of that point.
But answering your question directly: I expected Daniel Jones to have the same kind of season Sam Darnold in his second season -- with a shitty line, bad WRs, subpar running game, in his 2nd season in a new system.
Was Sam Darnold's situation so much better in his 2nd year than Jones last year?
I expected Jones to throw more touchdowns and win more games.
I was pleased he cut down his fumbles (still a WIP), and I was pleased he ran the ball well. I was also please he continued to throw the ball well downfield.
But situation aside, I didn't expect Jones to be so unproductive in so many games.
I don’t understand how somebody can have the opinion....
Tough to imagine anyone interested in trading a first for Jones. There figure to be five QBs in the first round...why not just go for one of them?
Look, I would have thought similarly until the Darnold trade.
Now give me some rope here as I try to make the case, but Jones has one less poor year than Darnold, he's the same age, has more potential as a dual threat, and looks better as a potential vertical thrower.
I don't think we are going to be in a position to get the only two worth getting at this point - Fields and Lance. Wilson and Lawrence are pegged at 1 and 2. And I have no interest in Mac Jones as a first rounder.
So it would take a move up. All academic, but I would call the Bears - they still have a big need at QB - and see if we can unload Jones for their 20th pick. And then package our 11th and this 20th to move up to a spot - Atlanta, Detroit? - to draft Fields or Lance. I think both are considerably more talented than Jones...
RE: I don’t understand how somebody can have the opinion....
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
I would love to know that answer
The expectations should have been high if you thought Jones had a good rookie year in '19. Which I am told - over and over - that he did (maybe not by you).
But just using your own logic, and nothing else....
That seems like the type of move you would accuse an incompetent Gettleman of making. You’d point out the season he just had, point out that you never considered him a first rounder to begin with, and blast the front office for making a panic move and wasting a first round pick on him.
RE: RE: I don’t understand how somebody can have the opinion....
That seems like the type of move you would accuse an incompetent Gettleman of making. You’d point out the season he just had, point out that you never considered him a first rounder to begin with, and blast the front office for making a panic move and wasting a first round pick on him.
I would? I'm the same guy who praised the Cards for ditching Rosen (who I still like, btw) and the Jets for moving on from Darnold.
I'm obviously not sold on Jones, so I would the reasoning to cut ties from DJ and start fresh with a new QB.
What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
I would love to know that answer
You're not going to get much push back that Gettleman constructed a deplorable offensive cast last year. I suspect if you go back to last offseason, you'll see plenty of chatter between BW, Terps, Googs, and me fearful of that point.
But answering your question directly: I expected Daniel Jones to have the same kind of season Sam Darnold in his second season -- with a shitty line, bad WRs, subpar running game, in his 2nd season in a new system.
Was Sam Darnold's situation so much better in his 2nd year than Jones last year?
I expected Jones to throw more touchdowns and win more games.
I was pleased he cut down his fumbles (still a WIP), and I was pleased he ran the ball well. I was also please he continued to throw the ball well downfield.
But situation aside, I didn't expect Jones to be so unproductive in so many games.
So you will just discount having a second year QB having a brand new offensive scheme and coaching staff? With no preseason? And many have said he was looking pretty good right before the hammy.
And round and round we go. This thread may never end... lol. And I think most people didn't think our offense looked very talented last year, at least after Saquon went down. I recall many discussions about not having a true #1 receiver and questions about Evan Engram.
He’s either worth a first pick or he’s not. It’s a contradiction to say he wasn’t worth a first round pick when we took him but is worth one to another team now. I’m seriously trying to understand that rationale.
is that if he is valued as a first round pick currently to another team, then since we currently own his rights why would we be so hasty to move on from him now, and essentially burning two first round picks to do it.
I don't think Jones is worth close to a first round pick. He wasn't great at Duke, he hasn't been great in the NFL. You'd be trading four him in the hopes that he turns into something he's never shown.
I don't think Jones is worth close to a first round pick. He wasn't great at Duke, he hasn't been great in the NFL. You'd be trading four him in the hopes that he turns into something he's never shown.
And that's what I would expect bw's take to be as well, for consistency, based on everything I've read here.
The reason I would consider it if a QB fell to 11 while still having Jones, is because I believe NOW enough has been done to set the table for a QB to come in and be moderately successful. That was not necessarily the case while I was still advocating for Eli to be the placeholder and Jones to sit the bench for a year.
Now, I believe, enough has been done to the roster and put a QB out there and not worry about him getting teed off on every drop back, and have some weapons to actually dump off to.
So yes, it wouldn't be ideal but I could get behind them taking a QB at 11 if they wanted a competition.
What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
I would love to know that answer
You're not going to get much push back that Gettleman constructed a deplorable offensive cast last year. I suspect if you go back to last offseason, you'll see plenty of chatter between BW, Terps, Googs, and me fearful of that point.
But answering your question directly: I expected Daniel Jones to have the same kind of season Sam Darnold in his second season -- with a shitty line, bad WRs, subpar running game, in his 2nd season in a new system.
Was Sam Darnold's situation so much better in his 2nd year than Jones last year?
I expected Jones to throw more touchdowns and win more games.
I was pleased he cut down his fumbles (still a WIP), and I was pleased he ran the ball well. I was also please he continued to throw the ball well downfield.
But situation aside, I didn't expect Jones to be so unproductive in so many games.
So you will just discount having a second year QB having a brand new offensive scheme and coaching staff? With no preseason? And many have said he was looking pretty good right before the hammy.
And round and round we go. This thread may never end... lol. And I think most people didn't think our offense looked very talented last year, at least after Saquon went down. I recall many discussions about not having a true #1 receiver and questions about Evan Engram.
The Giants offense last year wasn't really that talented with Saquon there, let alone without him. Shepard was our best receiver and he's a #3 slot guy. Now at least there's some talent in with Golladay and perhaps another receiver drafted at #11 to accurately judge Jones and see whether he sinks or swims.
The only way this thread is relevant to Jones is if he has Golladay, Saquon, and say Waddle or Smith and he still has a bad year like last year. Then we'll be in the position the Jets were with Darnold
From the highlights I've seen of Lance, and what I've read...Jones doesn't have his arm strength. He also doesn't run the same way Lance does. Jones is straight line fast, but he isn't extending many plays with his mobility. Lance looks more agile.
To me what it boils down to is this: what do you think Jones's ceiling is? If you think his ceiling is a good/not great player, then we should be open to finding his replacement at any opportunity. Why? Because we're not going to want to pay a good player a $35M+ contract in a couple years. Why would we, when we can pretty easily draft a similar player and pay him a fraction of that? Jones can improve quite a bit over what he's been and still not be worth a second contract.
I doubt they are, but their eyes should be open to improve at QB.
What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
I would love to know that answer
You're not going to get much push back that Gettleman constructed a deplorable offensive cast last year. I suspect if you go back to last offseason, you'll see plenty of chatter between BW, Terps, Googs, and me fearful of that point.
But answering your question directly: I expected Daniel Jones to have the same kind of season Sam Darnold in his second season -- with a shitty line, bad WRs, subpar running game, in his 2nd season in a new system.
Was Sam Darnold's situation so much better in his 2nd year than Jones last year?
I expected Jones to throw more touchdowns and win more games.
I was pleased he cut down his fumbles (still a WIP), and I was pleased he ran the ball well. I was also please he continued to throw the ball well downfield.
But situation aside, I didn't expect Jones to be so unproductive in so many games.
So you will just discount having a second year QB having a brand new offensive scheme and coaching staff? With no preseason? And many have said he was looking pretty good right before the hammy.
And round and round we go. This thread may never end... lol. And I think most people didn't think our offense looked very talented last year, at least after Saquon went down. I recall many discussions about not having a true #1 receiver and questions about Evan Engram.
This topic will be on page 100 and we'll still be replying 😂
From the highlights I've seen of Lance, and what I've read...Jones doesn't have his arm strength. He also doesn't run the same way Lance does. Jones is straight line fast, but he isn't extending many plays with his mobility. Lance looks more agile.
To me what it boils down to is this: what do you think Jones's ceiling is? If you think his ceiling is a good/not great player, then we should be open to finding his replacement at any opportunity. Why? Because we're not going to want to pay a good player a $35M+ contract in a couple years. Why would we, when we can pretty easily draft a similar player and pay him a fraction of that? Jones can improve quite a bit over what he's been and still not be worth a second contract.
I doubt they are, but their eyes should be open to improve at QB.
I don't know what Jones really is until we see him with Golladay, Saquon and perhaps Waddle or DeVonta Smith as his skill position players. Then there's no excuse for Jones. Last year Jones probably had the worst skill position players in the NFL around him so it was practically impossible to judge him. Plus the OL wasn't great shakes either. It was a virtually impossible situation. Shepard would be a #3 receiver on most teams but he was our #1 guy. The less said about Engram the better
the chance he'll be there at 11 is slim. I think all 5 QBs (Lawrence, Wilson, Mac Jones, Fields and Lance) are gone by 11. There are other QB needy teams that are going to attempt a trade into the top 10 or are already sitting in the top 10 like the Falcons that need a QB of the future
but it would be very telling of what they thought of Jones if they did.
That said, if Judge wanted Lance at 11 and he was sitting there, I doubt there would be any "scholarship" holding them back from taking him.
I doubt it's Judge's call.
I don't know about that, actually. Judge doesn't strike me as a guy will stick with a player he doesn't think has what it takes. I'd have to guess if we were in a position to take Lawrence, maybe Wilson... I would be surprised if they didn't take one of them. That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
You're not going to get much push back that Gettleman constructed a deplorable offensive cast last year. I suspect if you go back to last offseason, you'll see plenty of chatter between BW, Terps, Googs, and me fearful of that point.
But answering your question directly: I expected Daniel Jones to have the same kind of season Sam Darnold in his second season -- with a shitty line, bad WRs, subpar running game, in his 2nd season in a new system.
Was Sam Darnold's situation so much better in his 2nd year than Jones last year?
I expected Jones to throw more touchdowns and win more games.
I was pleased he cut down his fumbles (still a WIP), and I was pleased he ran the ball well. I was also please he continued to throw the ball well downfield.
But situation aside, I didn't expect Jones to be so unproductive in so many games.
So you will just discount having a second year QB having a brand new offensive scheme and coaching staff? With no preseason? And many have said he was looking pretty good right before the hammy.
And round and round we go. This thread may never end... lol. And I think most people didn't think our offense looked very talented last year, at least after Saquon went down. I recall many discussions about not having a true #1 receiver and questions about Evan Engram.
I can’t even begin to understand how that’s what you took from comment.
I expected Daniel Jones to perform on par to how Sam Darnold did in his 2nd season. A similarly talented player in a similarly bad situation.
I don't think Jones is worth close to a first round pick. He wasn't great at Duke, he hasn't been great in the NFL. You'd be trading four him in the hopes that he turns into something he's never shown.
And that's what I would expect bw's take to be as well, for consistency, based on everything I've read here.
Again, I'm not saying I think DJ should generate a first round pick in a theoretical trade.
But I could see another team considering it since Darnold just got the Jets a second after a horrible year. Jones has two comparable first years to Darnold and he does have attributes a team might find more useful than those of Darnold's...like more of a legit dual threat if used a specific way.
I can’t even begin to understand how that’s what you took from comment.
I expected Daniel Jones to perform on par to how Sam Darnold did in his 2nd season. A similarly talented player in a similarly bad situation.
Ah, Sorry I guess I misunderstood. Darnold's second year was far and away his best, so I just assumed you meant you were expecting a jump forward for Jones.
I actually think Darnold is going to be a decent player for Carolina. That Jets organization is truly a mess. And Adam Gase... I don't know on what planet an NFL team hires that guy to be HC after what he showed in Miami. Bizarre.
Darnold: 59.9 comp %, 36 TD, 28 INT, QBRs of 45.9 and 45.6, 16 fumbles, 200 rushing yards, 3 TD
Jones actually has the better stats, especially the QBRs, but the fumbles are the killer in his case, most likely because his best receiver is Sterling Shepard who is a #3 receiver on most teams. The fumbles are due to Jones hanging onto the ball for too long because we don't have anyone who consistently gets open, so he gets hit a lot and therefore loses the ball. I would expect the fumble numbers to go down now that he actually has a #1 receiver in Golladay and could get a #2 in Smith or Waddle in the draft. If the fumbles don't improve any then we've got a serious problem and we can't continue with Jones after 2021 because he likely lost us too many games.
Darnold had 5889 passing yards in his first two years
this goes back to Phil Simms, who was uneven at best in his first three seasons here and suffered injuries on top of that. Lots of people wanted to give up on Simms but thank goodness we didn't. Even Bill Parcells initially gave up on Simms for Scott Brunner back in the day. By the end of three years, you know whether to move forward or not in most cases. You usually don't know after two years unless it's 100% obvious that the QB can't do it, and it's not 100% obvious in Jones' case. I don't think Jones is the guy long term but I could be wrong and he could light it up this year. In fact I hope I'm wrong and he lights it up this year...
The Jets decided after three years that they weren't moving forward with Darnold, and we'll have to make that decision after this season with Jones. But I think to already make the decision before that all-important third season is jumping the gun. You have to see how the experiment plays out before you call it a failure...
That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?
For the reasons we have posted in support of Jones for over 13 pages now in this thread... lol. We shall see. I don't say you are unequivocally wrong, but I believe you are. I have my concerns but again, I am bullish on what I have seen. Think about it this way, if there is even slight incremental improvement in OL play, slight improvement in skill play, slight improvement in RB and TE blocking, slight improvement in Jones timing/pocket awareness, and they scheme to his strengths and away from his weaknesses? How many close games does that put in the victory column? I'd have to think quite a few. But again, I'm optimistic on what I see.
That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?
You’ve gotten the answer so many times. You don’t believe the answers and that’s fine, but those are the reasons. This is basically what I’m getting at when I ask why we keep talking about this stuff. There’s no metric I can point to to change your mind nor am I trying. What are you looking to find out that you don’t already know?
I’m shocked this thread still exists, keep seeing it pop up and wondered why.
he spends 365 x maybe 15 years getting the most from football players and data about football and doing so at the highest level of consequence for getting it right or wrong?
and all the folks on this thread spend a few hours a day arguing badly and without facts without any consequence?
That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?
For the reasons we have posted in support of Jones for over 13 pages now in this thread... lol. We shall see. I don't say you are unequivocally wrong, but I believe you are. I have my concerns but again, I am bullish on what I have seen. Think about it this way, if there is even slight incremental improvement in OL play, slight improvement in skill play, slight improvement in RB and TE blocking, slight improvement in Jones timing/pocket awareness, and they scheme to his strengths and away from his weaknesses? How many close games does that put in the victory column? I'd have to think quite a few. But again, I'm optimistic on what I see.
I'm not as bullish as you but Jones deserves the third year to prove he's the guy. I don't believe in unstable quarterback carousels as the way to build a team like Terps. That's what occurs on the other side of MetLife with the Jets and that's the reason why they haven't been in a Super Bowl since Namath played for them in the 60s. There are aspects of Jones' play in his rookie year, when he had Saquon for most of the year, where he was headed for franchise QB status. However, last year was a very difficult situation without Saquon, and I think Jones did what he could, but he definitely took a step back. Now with Golladay, Saquon back, perhaps another receiver drafted high, and another year in charge, Jones sinks or swims and he doesn't have any excuses. Either he shines and leads us to the playoffs or he fails and we have to consider a new QB
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In comment 15215452 bw in dc said:
Agreed. There is actually a lot of good content here, but too many posters read other posts in their own tone/voice, make assumptions about intent, and then we get sideways.
The mantra of "well, it is was it is...so why complain about it anymore?" is so boring.
bw, I see your point but the same complaint can be applied to either side. Seriously, how many threads do you think have been made on BBI since the end of the 2020 season that slammed Jones that use the same tired arguments while not taking into account the variables that contributed to his stats?
It is no contest, I mean there are some on here that no matter the thread they somehow segue into a Jones rant. If he is not the guy we will know come this next season but holy shit let's at least hope for the best for the kid without the constant drumbeat of those who yearn to be proven right.
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
I would love to know that answer
Begging the question = assuming your conclusion in making the argument.
Quote:
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
You call Jones a huge investment as the #6 overall pick and then flippantly praise the Jets for moving on from Darnold, who was #3 overall and an additional 3 2nd rounders to get there, for pennies on the dollar.
I'm not flippantly praising. I'm praising the Jets for making a smart move. A divorce was needed for both sides. The Jets received a decent package and Darnold gets a chance to revitalize his career.
Hell, I was surprised the Jets got that much in return and have postulated the Giants could probably get a first for Jones this year...
Huh? How did they get decent value? They traded THREE 2nd round picks to get him, then trade him for a 6th this year and a 2nd and 4th next year. That's a terrible ROI.
Begging the question = assuming your conclusion in making the argument.
You really can't until he is at least given a somewhat average surrounding cast. Given the facts of what he had to work with last year, I am surprised at what he did accomplish
I'm not flippantly praising. I'm praising the Jets for making a smart move. A divorce was needed for both sides. The Jets received a decent package and Darnold gets a chance to revitalize his career.
Hell, I was surprised the Jets got that much in return and have postulated the Giants could probably get a first for Jones this year...
Huh? How did they get decent value? They traded THREE 2nd round picks to get him, then trade him for a 6th this year and a 2nd and 4th next year. That's a terrible ROI.
IMV, the Jets got decent value for Darnold because I didn't think they could unload him for more than a 3rd or 4th. So to get a multiple pick package with a 2nd, 4th and 6th seems like decent value for a QB who is obviously lost at the position right now...
I would love to know that answer
You're not going to get much push back that Gettleman constructed a deplorable offensive cast last year. I suspect if you go back to last offseason, you'll see plenty of chatter between BW, Terps, Googs, and me fearful of that point.
But answering your question directly: I expected Daniel Jones to have the same kind of season Sam Darnold in his second season -- with a shitty line, bad WRs, subpar running game, in his 2nd season in a new system.
Was Sam Darnold's situation so much better in his 2nd year than Jones last year?
I expected Jones to throw more touchdowns and win more games.
I was pleased he cut down his fumbles (still a WIP), and I was pleased he ran the ball well. I was also please he continued to throw the ball well downfield.
But situation aside, I didn't expect Jones to be so unproductive in so many games.
Look, I would have thought similarly until the Darnold trade.
Now give me some rope here as I try to make the case, but Jones has one less poor year than Darnold, he's the same age, has more potential as a dual threat, and looks better as a potential vertical thrower.
I don't think we are going to be in a position to get the only two worth getting at this point - Fields and Lance. Wilson and Lawrence are pegged at 1 and 2. And I have no interest in Mac Jones as a first rounder.
So it would take a move up. All academic, but I would call the Bears - they still have a big need at QB - and see if we can unload Jones for their 20th pick. And then package our 11th and this 20th to move up to a spot - Atlanta, Detroit? - to draft Fields or Lance. I think both are considerably more talented than Jones...
My opinion of Jones and what the market might think of him are two different situations.
What do you expect? Jones is the QB, so he is a lightening rod right now. He's a big investment who has struggled to live up to expectations. It's not a quiet subject.
Serious question - who isn't rooting for Jones? Some may be predicting he is still going to struggle in '21, based on how he performed in '20, but that shouldn't be confused with rotting against Jones.
What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
I would love to know that answer
The expectations should have been high if you thought Jones had a good rookie year in '19. Which I am told - over and over - that he did (maybe not by you).
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of Jones that you seem to, bw, and then turn around and say you think we can get a first round pick for him. It does not compute, market or not.
My opinion of Jones and what the market might think of him are two different situations.
Well now we’re getting somewhere.
I would? I'm the same guy who praised the Cards for ditching Rosen (who I still like, btw) and the Jets for moving on from Darnold.
I'm obviously not sold on Jones, so I would the reasoning to cut ties from DJ and start fresh with a new QB.
Quote:
What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
I would love to know that answer
You're not going to get much push back that Gettleman constructed a deplorable offensive cast last year. I suspect if you go back to last offseason, you'll see plenty of chatter between BW, Terps, Googs, and me fearful of that point.
But answering your question directly: I expected Daniel Jones to have the same kind of season Sam Darnold in his second season -- with a shitty line, bad WRs, subpar running game, in his 2nd season in a new system.
Was Sam Darnold's situation so much better in his 2nd year than Jones last year?
I expected Jones to throw more touchdowns and win more games.
I was pleased he cut down his fumbles (still a WIP), and I was pleased he ran the ball well. I was also please he continued to throw the ball well downfield.
But situation aside, I didn't expect Jones to be so unproductive in so many games.
So you will just discount having a second year QB having a brand new offensive scheme and coaching staff? With no preseason? And many have said he was looking pretty good right before the hammy.
And round and round we go. This thread may never end... lol. And I think most people didn't think our offense looked very talented last year, at least after Saquon went down. I recall many discussions about not having a true #1 receiver and questions about Evan Engram.
If that happens, I'd draft him.
And that's what I would expect bw's take to be as well, for consistency, based on everything I've read here.
If that happens, I'd draft him.
If he fell into their laps that would be intriguing and I could certainly see the argument for it. Low risk, high reward, and may the best man win.
Also, you've been talking about college statistics.... Do you take into competition the talent level of the teams they were playing against?
JMU, while good (I follow them), isn't like playing Clemson.
Now, I believe, enough has been done to the roster and put a QB out there and not worry about him getting teed off on every drop back, and have some weapons to actually dump off to.
So yes, it wouldn't be ideal but I could get behind them taking a QB at 11 if they wanted a competition.
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In comment 15215707 montanagiant said:
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What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
I would love to know that answer
You're not going to get much push back that Gettleman constructed a deplorable offensive cast last year. I suspect if you go back to last offseason, you'll see plenty of chatter between BW, Terps, Googs, and me fearful of that point.
But answering your question directly: I expected Daniel Jones to have the same kind of season Sam Darnold in his second season -- with a shitty line, bad WRs, subpar running game, in his 2nd season in a new system.
Was Sam Darnold's situation so much better in his 2nd year than Jones last year?
I expected Jones to throw more touchdowns and win more games.
I was pleased he cut down his fumbles (still a WIP), and I was pleased he ran the ball well. I was also please he continued to throw the ball well downfield.
But situation aside, I didn't expect Jones to be so unproductive in so many games.
So you will just discount having a second year QB having a brand new offensive scheme and coaching staff? With no preseason? And many have said he was looking pretty good right before the hammy.
And round and round we go. This thread may never end... lol. And I think most people didn't think our offense looked very talented last year, at least after Saquon went down. I recall many discussions about not having a true #1 receiver and questions about Evan Engram.
The Giants offense last year wasn't really that talented with Saquon there, let alone without him. Shepard was our best receiver and he's a #3 slot guy. Now at least there's some talent in with Golladay and perhaps another receiver drafted at #11 to accurately judge Jones and see whether he sinks or swims.
The only way this thread is relevant to Jones is if he has Golladay, Saquon, and say Waddle or Smith and he still has a bad year like last year. Then we'll be in the position the Jets were with Darnold
To me what it boils down to is this: what do you think Jones's ceiling is? If you think his ceiling is a good/not great player, then we should be open to finding his replacement at any opportunity. Why? Because we're not going to want to pay a good player a $35M+ contract in a couple years. Why would we, when we can pretty easily draft a similar player and pay him a fraction of that? Jones can improve quite a bit over what he's been and still not be worth a second contract.
I doubt they are, but their eyes should be open to improve at QB.
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In comment 15215707 montanagiant said:
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What were the expectations for a 2nd year QB who's had 2 different OCs in each year, that had no training camp to speak of, a young inexperienced O-Line, shitty running game, and one of the worse receiving groups in the NFL?
I would love to know that answer
You're not going to get much push back that Gettleman constructed a deplorable offensive cast last year. I suspect if you go back to last offseason, you'll see plenty of chatter between BW, Terps, Googs, and me fearful of that point.
But answering your question directly: I expected Daniel Jones to have the same kind of season Sam Darnold in his second season -- with a shitty line, bad WRs, subpar running game, in his 2nd season in a new system.
Was Sam Darnold's situation so much better in his 2nd year than Jones last year?
I expected Jones to throw more touchdowns and win more games.
I was pleased he cut down his fumbles (still a WIP), and I was pleased he ran the ball well. I was also please he continued to throw the ball well downfield.
But situation aside, I didn't expect Jones to be so unproductive in so many games.
So you will just discount having a second year QB having a brand new offensive scheme and coaching staff? With no preseason? And many have said he was looking pretty good right before the hammy.
And round and round we go. This thread may never end... lol. And I think most people didn't think our offense looked very talented last year, at least after Saquon went down. I recall many discussions about not having a true #1 receiver and questions about Evan Engram.
This topic will be on page 100 and we'll still be replying 😂
That said, if Judge wanted Lance at 11 and he was sitting there, I doubt there would be any "scholarship" holding them back from taking him.
To me what it boils down to is this: what do you think Jones's ceiling is? If you think his ceiling is a good/not great player, then we should be open to finding his replacement at any opportunity. Why? Because we're not going to want to pay a good player a $35M+ contract in a couple years. Why would we, when we can pretty easily draft a similar player and pay him a fraction of that? Jones can improve quite a bit over what he's been and still not be worth a second contract.
I doubt they are, but their eyes should be open to improve at QB.
I don't know what Jones really is until we see him with Golladay, Saquon and perhaps Waddle or DeVonta Smith as his skill position players. Then there's no excuse for Jones. Last year Jones probably had the worst skill position players in the NFL around him so it was practically impossible to judge him. Plus the OL wasn't great shakes either. It was a virtually impossible situation. Shepard would be a #3 receiver on most teams but he was our #1 guy. The less said about Engram the better
That said, if Judge wanted Lance at 11 and he was sitting there, I doubt there would be any "scholarship" holding them back from taking him.
I doubt it's Judge's call.
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but it would be very telling of what they thought of Jones if they did.
That said, if Judge wanted Lance at 11 and he was sitting there, I doubt there would be any "scholarship" holding them back from taking him.
I doubt it's Judge's call.
I don't know about that, actually. Judge doesn't strike me as a guy will stick with a player he doesn't think has what it takes. I'd have to guess if we were in a position to take Lawrence, maybe Wilson... I would be surprised if they didn't take one of them. That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
But answering your question directly: I expected Daniel Jones to have the same kind of season Sam Darnold in his second season -- with a shitty line, bad WRs, subpar running game, in his 2nd season in a new system.
Was Sam Darnold's situation so much better in his 2nd year than Jones last year?
I expected Jones to throw more touchdowns and win more games.
I was pleased he cut down his fumbles (still a WIP), and I was pleased he ran the ball well. I was also please he continued to throw the ball well downfield.
But situation aside, I didn't expect Jones to be so unproductive in so many games.
So you will just discount having a second year QB having a brand new offensive scheme and coaching staff? With no preseason? And many have said he was looking pretty good right before the hammy.
And round and round we go. This thread may never end... lol. And I think most people didn't think our offense looked very talented last year, at least after Saquon went down. I recall many discussions about not having a true #1 receiver and questions about Evan Engram.
I can’t even begin to understand how that’s what you took from comment.
I expected Daniel Jones to perform on par to how Sam Darnold did in his 2nd season. A similarly talented player in a similarly bad situation.
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I don't think Jones is worth close to a first round pick. He wasn't great at Duke, he hasn't been great in the NFL. You'd be trading four him in the hopes that he turns into something he's never shown.
And that's what I would expect bw's take to be as well, for consistency, based on everything I've read here.
Again, I'm not saying I think DJ should generate a first round pick in a theoretical trade.
But I could see another team considering it since Darnold just got the Jets a second after a horrible year. Jones has two comparable first years to Darnold and he does have attributes a team might find more useful than those of Darnold's...like more of a legit dual threat if used a specific way.
I can’t even begin to understand how that’s what you took from comment.
I expected Daniel Jones to perform on par to how Sam Darnold did in his 2nd season. A similarly talented player in a similarly bad situation.
Ah, Sorry I guess I misunderstood. Darnold's second year was far and away his best, so I just assumed you meant you were expecting a jump forward for Jones.
I actually think Darnold is going to be a decent player for Carolina. That Jets organization is truly a mess. And Adam Gase... I don't know on what planet an NFL team hires that guy to be HC after what he showed in Miami. Bizarre.
Darnold: 59.9 comp %, 36 TD, 28 INT, QBRs of 45.9 and 45.6, 16 fumbles, 200 rushing yards, 3 TD
Jones actually has the better stats, especially the QBRs, but the fumbles are the killer in his case, most likely because his best receiver is Sterling Shepard who is a #3 receiver on most teams. The fumbles are due to Jones hanging onto the ball for too long because we don't have anyone who consistently gets open, so he gets hit a lot and therefore loses the ball. I would expect the fumble numbers to go down now that he actually has a #1 receiver in Golladay and could get a #2 in Smith or Waddle in the draft. If the fumbles don't improve any then we've got a serious problem and we can't continue with Jones after 2021 because he likely lost us too many games.
The Jets decided after three years that they weren't moving forward with Darnold, and we'll have to make that decision after this season with Jones. But I think to already make the decision before that all-important third season is jumping the gun. You have to see how the experiment plays out before you call it a failure...
I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?
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That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?
For the reasons we have posted in support of Jones for over 13 pages now in this thread... lol. We shall see. I don't say you are unequivocally wrong, but I believe you are. I have my concerns but again, I am bullish on what I have seen. Think about it this way, if there is even slight incremental improvement in OL play, slight improvement in skill play, slight improvement in RB and TE blocking, slight improvement in Jones timing/pocket awareness, and they scheme to his strengths and away from his weaknesses? How many close games does that put in the victory column? I'd have to think quite a few. But again, I'm optimistic on what I see.
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That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?
You’ve gotten the answer so many times. You don’t believe the answers and that’s fine, but those are the reasons. This is basically what I’m getting at when I ask why we keep talking about this stuff. There’s no metric I can point to to change your mind nor am I trying. What are you looking to find out that you don’t already know?
I’m shocked this thread still exists, keep seeing it pop up and wondered why.
and all the folks on this thread spend a few hours a day arguing badly and without facts without any consequence?
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In comment 15215893 Johnny5 said:
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That said I fully believe that Judge's opinion of Jones ceiling is much higher than yours.
I see that written a lot, and my question is...why? Why would Judge have a high opinion of Jones?
For the reasons we have posted in support of Jones for over 13 pages now in this thread... lol. We shall see. I don't say you are unequivocally wrong, but I believe you are. I have my concerns but again, I am bullish on what I have seen. Think about it this way, if there is even slight incremental improvement in OL play, slight improvement in skill play, slight improvement in RB and TE blocking, slight improvement in Jones timing/pocket awareness, and they scheme to his strengths and away from his weaknesses? How many close games does that put in the victory column? I'd have to think quite a few. But again, I'm optimistic on what I see.
I'm not as bullish as you but Jones deserves the third year to prove he's the guy. I don't believe in unstable quarterback carousels as the way to build a team like Terps. That's what occurs on the other side of MetLife with the Jets and that's the reason why they haven't been in a Super Bowl since Namath played for them in the 60s. There are aspects of Jones' play in his rookie year, when he had Saquon for most of the year, where he was headed for franchise QB status. However, last year was a very difficult situation without Saquon, and I think Jones did what he could, but he definitely took a step back. Now with Golladay, Saquon back, perhaps another receiver drafted high, and another year in charge, Jones sinks or swims and he doesn't have any excuses. Either he shines and leads us to the playoffs or he fails and we have to consider a new QB