He did a great quick podcast analysis of Darnold early in the season. It was very instructive.
In it he mentions that Darnold makes occasional plays that make you go wow, that was great. But then he makes just as many mistakes that are so fundamental even high school QBs have mastered them, and it makes you wonder why Darnold hasn't mastered them yet, and if he ever will. Because if he can't master these things, he can't be a successful NFL starter.
In the same podcast he insists that pro QB analysts can judge a QB regardless of his context, because they are looking at concise, repeatable actions and moments. Which is why the mantra on here that we can't judge Jones based on what has already happened is bunk. But that's another story.
If anyone has an interest in this Cosell podcast appearance I can find it pretty easily and link it here.
Bunk? Bullshit. Jones was displaying bad decision making and he was indecisive, he was holding the ball too long through the first 7-8 games of 2020. And then he played much better through the final 8 games. As usual, this is ignored by you and a few others around here.
Again, no one doubts that Jones was struggling first half of 2020. Shit even Judge alluded to this.
Yea they reigned him in and instead of turning the ball over, an improvement, he couldn't move the offense, a set back. I don't think by the end of the year Jones looked very good at all. His game resembled Brock Osweiler's.
Ok. That's a laughable comparison but whatever works for you. Watch the Skins, Philly and Dallas games again. You need to if that's the comparison you came up with.
RE: RE: After thinking about this I think the Jets are a disaster
I don't get the line of thought that this was a good deal. Maybe in terms of just how much Darnold sucks "at this point in time" it is. However they traded up to then spend the 3rd pick in Rd 1 on this guy just 3 years ago. Now they walk away with a 2nd, 4th, and 6th, plus they have to "reboot" the whole QB "use the #3 pick thing" all again. In a sense they wasted 3 years for what, a 2nd rd pick next year?
No wonder Jets fans are irate.
Are Jet fans irate? friends have seemed to like the trade.
They take a QB at 2.. You then have another 1st, a 2nd and 2 3rds this year and then 2 firsts and 2 seconds next year. Not a bad amount of quality picks to build around him
I know plenty of Jets fans, including my brother, who are not happy for all the reasons I listed above. If this was the Giants many here would likely be ripping the organization. Its been a terrible 3 years for them. Just because they have some picks lined up moving forward doesn't relieve them of the horrible past and present. Plus these are picks, who knows how they turn out.
Yes Jets fans are not happy on wasting all this time on Darnold, and only getting a 2nd next year (the other picks came from other places). Plus remember they traded up to get him.
RE: How early does the pick need to be in Rd 1 before you would consider
because the front office was obviously done with him. So they committed to that belief and moved him for as much as they could get. They didn't draft him. What it cost to trade for him doesn't matter anymore. Sunk cost. If they didn't believe him Darnold you have to move him.
I mean anyone could make this trade. Doesn't take amazing foresight or talent to trade a struggling QB for decent draft capital.
This is all roses and sunshine for the Jets. Cleaning house is always easy, the hard part is building the team back up again and actually winning. Jets need to nail the QB pick. They usually fuck it up. I'd be nervous about picking a QB that feasted on lousy teams but some of those kids translate to the pros. Time will tell.
They traded three 2nd round picks to move up 3 spots and draft Sam Darnold #3 overall.
So they gave up a 1st and three 2nd round picks on a QB that is no longer on the roster three years later, and in return got a 2nd, 4th, and 6th and have no QB.
Oh, but I guess they are forward thinking and not afraid to cut ties. Oh, and THIS TIME they'll get it right considering their long history of successful drafting.
Massive failure.
RE: RE: RE: After thinking about this I think the Jets are a disaster
I don't get the line of thought that this was a good deal. Maybe in terms of just how much Darnold sucks "at this point in time" it is. However they traded up to then spend the 3rd pick in Rd 1 on this guy just 3 years ago. Now they walk away with a 2nd, 4th, and 6th, plus they have to "reboot" the whole QB "use the #3 pick thing" all again. In a sense they wasted 3 years for what, a 2nd rd pick next year?
No wonder Jets fans are irate.
Are Jet fans irate? friends have seemed to like the trade.
They take a QB at 2.. You then have another 1st, a 2nd and 2 3rds this year and then 2 firsts and 2 seconds next year. Not a bad amount of quality picks to build around him
I know plenty of Jets fans, including my brother, who are not happy for all the reasons I listed above. If this was the Giants many here would likely be ripping the organization. Its been a terrible 3 years for them. Just because they have some picks lined up moving forward doesn't relieve them of the horrible past and present. Plus these are picks, who knows how they turn out.
Yes Jets fans are not happy on wasting all this time on Darnold, and only getting a 2nd next year (the other picks came from other places). Plus remember they traded up to get him.
There's probably a split between Jet fans; those who think Sam can still turn it around with a better supporting cast, and those who accepted his time with the Jets were done.
Those in the former camp are probably annoyed and those in the later camp are happy.
The organization clearly doesn't think Sam is the answer so they can't just keep him because they gave up draft picks to get him a few years ago
If the Giants have to do this with Daniel Jones next offseason
They traded three 2nd round picks to move up 3 spots and draft Sam Darnold #3 overall.
So they gave up a 1st and three 2nd round picks on a QB that is no longer on the roster three years later, and in return got a 2nd, 4th, and 6th and have no QB.
Oh, but I guess they are forward thinking and not afraid to cut ties. Oh, and THIS TIME they'll get it right considering their long history of successful drafting.
Massive failure.
+1
Jets don’t get any credit for realizing and moving on from Darnold
unless you're trying to hammer a square peg in a round hole.
As far as the Giants, I'm assuming you're talking about the Giants with that statement, recognizing failure and moving on from a pick or free agent signing is in fact a good thing.
However, I cannot recall any Giants where such a high stakes player was cut, as in top 5 pick that we traded multiple future draft picks to go get. Maybe you can refresh my memory to to a similar situation. Even if Saquon was cut (which would be bad enough even though I don't envision it happening), he's still just a single draft pick. We did not trade multiple future picks to go get him.
Josh Rosen would be a comparable failure in Arizona....
extending any more monies and made a clean break. Expensive picking him in the first place but when you have conviction on a guy, you are supposed to do that kind of thing.
do people want to give kudos for recognizing a mistake and pivoting quickly as if the mistake is fixed when it isn't?
This was strangely repeatedly brought up when the Cards drafted Murray and when the Redskins released Haskins. Where are the Skins now? With an aging QB who doesn't have a single playoff appearance
What I don't get is that the same people talking about moving from mistakes quickly as a positive, kill the Giants for every misstep.
RE: It may or may not have been a necessary evil....
do people want to give kudos for recognizing a mistake and pivoting quickly as if the mistake is fixed when it isn't?
This was strangely repeatedly brought up when the Cards drafted Murray and when the Redskins released Haskins. Where are the Skins now? With an aging QB who doesn't have a single playoff appearance
What I don't get is that the same people talking about moving from mistakes quickly as a positive, kill the Giants for every misstep.
What you don’t get is it’s actually the opposite...
RE: RE: RE: It may or may not have been a necessary evil....
do people want to give kudos for recognizing a mistake and pivoting quickly as if the mistake is fixed when it isn't?
This was strangely repeatedly brought up when the Cards drafted Murray and when the Redskins released Haskins. Where are the Skins now? With an aging QB who doesn't have a single playoff appearance
What I don't get is that the same people talking about moving from mistakes quickly as a positive, kill the Giants for every misstep.
What you don’t get is it’s actually the opposite...
LOL. Jimmy Clownshoes. The guy who referenced Jonathan Stewart daily. Sure, Chief.
The front offices that made the Rosen/Darnold trades were different than the ones that made the picks. It's much easier to admit someone else's mistakes than your own.
I think the Jets got a decent haul for a guy who was going to be a backup for them this year. The Darnold experience was horrid for the Jets.
do people want to give kudos for recognizing a mistake and pivoting quickly as if the mistake is fixed when it isn't?
This was strangely repeatedly brought up when the Cards drafted Murray and when the Redskins released Haskins. Where are the Skins now? With an aging QB who doesn't have a single playoff appearance
What I don't get is that the same people talking about moving from mistakes quickly as a positive, kill the Giants for every misstep.
What you don’t get is it’s actually the opposite...
LOL. Jimmy Clownshoes. The guy who referenced Jonathan Stewart daily. Sure, Chief.
What are babbling about? Folks like you on the site often would defend that DG made some bad mistakes but realized it and got out of them early versus prior regimes. These weren’t his critics making this statement.
And the only clown laughing out loud seemingly is you today...
RE: If the Giants have to do this with Daniel Jones next offseason
The failure is the pick, and then bending over backwards to try to make the pick work. Trading Jones (or Darnold) isn't the failure; it's the end of the error.
The Jets are about to start another rookie QB contract with a really talented prospect - they're a year ahead of us in the cycle.
RE: RE: RE: How early does the pick need to be in Rd 1 before you would consider
dealing Jones per the above post? Or does any pick in Rd 1 work?
I'm not suggesting it. I was referring to people here continually bashing Jones and now suggesting they could get a #1 for him.
Let me try to slow this down for you.
I'm not saying I would give up a first for Jones. But the market just might because a team gave up a 2,4 and 6 for Ghost Darnold. So why would it be such a leap to think we could possibly - amazingly - get a first for Jones?
I hope that helps add color to your world.
Darnold was a more coveted prospect than Jones. Not saying better, but I am think many feel he is the better prospect. I am not among them. I was never for Darnold.
RE: RE: If the Giants have to do this with Daniel Jones next offseason
The failure is the pick, and then bending over backwards to try to make the pick work. Trading Jones (or Darnold) isn't the failure; it's the end of the error.
The Jets are about to start another rookie QB contract with a really talented prospect - they're a year ahead of us in the cycle.
Why can't they design an offense for the strengths of Jones like the Ravens did for Jackson. Had Jackson been put in a drop back rhythm offense he would have been a hot mess. Jones throws an accurate deep ball passes and they got him players that can do that. Let's see how this plays out, no? You are not the least bit excited?
Why is it OK to completely design an offense for Jackson but getting Jones players is bending over backwards?
The answer seems obvious.
Jackson was your guy and Jones was not your guy.
Not a great look.
RE: RE: If the Giants have to do this with Daniel Jones next offseason
The failure is the pick, and then bending over backwards to try to make the pick work. Trading Jones (or Darnold) isn't the failure; it's the end of the error.
The Jets are about to start another rookie QB contract with a really talented prospect - they're a year ahead of us in the cycle.
WTF are you even talking about anymore? A year ahead of us in what cycle?
I'm not saying I would give up a first for Jones. But the market just might because a team gave up a 2,4 and 6 for Ghost Darnold. So why would it be such a leap to think we could possibly - amazingly - get a first for Jones?
I hope that helps add color to your world.
Darnold was a more coveted prospect than Jones. Not saying better, but I am think many feel he is the better prospect. I am not among them. I was never for Darnold.
I understand Darnold went 3rd overall compared to Jones at the 6th pick the following year. But using actual performance in the NFL, to date, Darnold is one of the few QBs that Jones looks fairly competent against...
So if you put more credibility on that, which would seem like the right thing to do, Jones would seem more valuable on the market. Just look at Darnold's performance over his three years. They are pretty ugly. Now, he's had some flashes - the second half of '19 - but that's really it as a high mark.
grateful - I'm not especially excited, no. A deep ball target for Jones hasn't been the problem. The problem has been a combination of:
1. Poor OL - this has not been solved; if anything the line looks like it will be thinner
2. Poor pocket presence from Jones
3. A scheme that doesn't utilize what Jones does well, and actually seems to be designed to have him make plays from the pocket
Chris684 - the Jets moved on from their QB mistake this year. I expect we'll be doing that next year. That's what I'm talking about.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: How early does the pick need to be in Rd 1 before you would consider
I'm not saying I would give up a first for Jones. But the market just might because a team gave up a 2,4 and 6 for Ghost Darnold. So why would it be such a leap to think we could possibly - amazingly - get a first for Jones?
I hope that helps add color to your world.
Darnold was a more coveted prospect than Jones. Not saying better, but I am think many feel he is the better prospect. I am not among them. I was never for Darnold.
I understand Darnold went 3rd overall compared to Jones at the 6th pick the following year. But using actual performance in the NFL, to date, Darnold is one of the few QBs that Jones looks fairly competent against...
So if you put more credibility on that, which would seem like the right thing to do, Jones would seem more valuable on the market. Just look at Darnold's performance over his three years. They are pretty ugly. Now, he's had some flashes - the second half of '19 - but that's really it as a high mark.
We are splitting hairs. People were shocked Jones went 6th and many expected Darnold to go one. That said, I see where you are going. I don't know that Jones has put up more than Darnold. I say equal or tiny bit less on a trade for Jones....today. I think Jones is going to have a very good year in 2021. I think it will be the case of good coaching. They looked at what Jones could do well and went and got him complimentary players, and they are not done. That is is just good coaching, it isn't bending over backwards to force a pick like Terps said in another thread. It is what a good coach and team should do.
grateful - I'm not especially excited, no. A deep ball target for Jones hasn't been the problem. The problem has been a combination of:
1. Poor OL - this has not been solved; if anything the line looks like it will be thinner
2. Poor pocket presence from Jones
3. A scheme that doesn't utilize what Jones does well, and actually seems to be designed to have him make plays from the pocket
Chris684 - the Jets moved on from their QB mistake this year. I expect we'll be doing that next year. That's what I'm talking about.
We get to see this year. I disagree with you. What I can promise is that if Jones stinks it up in 2021, I will not make excuses. This is the year. Unlike most on BBI I am inclined to admit mistakes.
You have painted yourself into a corner. DG's legacy is tied to Jones. If Jones has a good year, DG stays and will be given credit. You are going to become the BBI whipping boy forever if that happens.
I'm not worried about a spot I may or may not be in. I call it like I see it. I've said some unpopular things here in the past; been right on some, been wrong on others.
But right now the burden of proof is on Jones. He has been terrible for two years. That's objectively true, no matter how many excuses people want to make for him.
He'll be better in 2021 than he was in 2020, but that's only because it's next to impossible to be worse than he was. Given the low standards around here I expect even a minimal improvement will be hailed as a great success.
his legacy is that the Giants can go undefeated next year and still be a sub .500 team under his watch. He's been a bigger disaster for this organization than Ray Handley.
his legacy is that the Giants can go undefeated next year and still be a sub .500 team under his watch. He's been a bigger disaster for this organization than Ray Handley.
grateful - I'm not especially excited, no. A deep ball target for Jones hasn't been the problem. The problem has been a combination of:
1. Poor OL - this has not been solved; if anything the line looks like it will be thinner
2. Poor pocket presence from Jones
3. A scheme that doesn't utilize what Jones does well, and actually seems to be designed to have him make plays from the pocket
Chris684 - the Jets moved on from their QB mistake this year. I expect we'll be doing that next year. That's what I'm talking about.
We get to see this year. I disagree with you. What I can promise is that if Jones stinks it up in 2021, I will not make excuses. This is the year. Unlike most on BBI I am inclined to admit mistakes.
You have painted yourself into a corner. DG's legacy is tied to Jones. If Jones has a good year, DG stays and will be given credit. You are going to become the BBI whipping boy forever if that happens.
I have not read thru this but I do not agree that DJ has been "terrible" for the two years he has been here.
I would agree with other ways of describing his performance, such as, tentative, slow to get rid of ball, needs to improve ball security, inconsistent...
I would agree the jury is still out, but "terrible" is over-stating his level of performance.
I don't want to get in trouble for talking about Jones again.
I think this is a good trade for the Jets. They're in a good spot to build around Wilson, who I think is a really good prospect. I'd be excited if I were them.
his legacy is that the Giants can go undefeated next year and still be a sub .500 team under his watch. He's been a bigger disaster for this organization than Ray Handley.
Sorry, but no one is going to give a fuck about his early record if he got the QB right and you know this. The longer they stay the more they have a chance to change the narrative. Your motivation jumps off the page. You want to be right about this badly. Don't even try to deny it, you will look foolish.
I thought after 3 years DG deserved to be let go.
I stand by that.
They didn't because they liked they way he worked with Judge.
The Giants did not do what I felt was best for the organization.
I came to forums and expressed my disappointment.
After that.
I let it go.
Whether I was right or wrong about DG or Jones is meaningless.
Terrible is a bit strong. He hasn't been great, but he hasn't been terrible either. He's been eh...
I agree with that. The optimists among us see promise and are bullish that with better and more stable OL play, better blocking from TE and RB spots, more weapons, and a second year with the coaching staff will pay big dividends with him. It's really as simple as that.
Otherwise...
I aint burying him yet though. He has shown me enough to be optimistic.
We can all agree that this is going to be a big big year for the Giants franchise. If they suck and lose double digit games again, you’d expect for the GM to be fired and the QB to be replaced. It’s going to an uphill climb for the GM as a lot of these contracts start really hitting the cap (Leonard Williams, Golloday, Jackson, Bradberry, and Martinez). Let’s hope we progress in the right direction. I’m confident with Judge at the helm.
to see how these highly drafted QB's do in future years. Darnold is 23 years old. Eli came to the Giants at 23. So much turnover in the HC ranks and it seems everyone wants their guy and resetting the Cap situation. Opens up a new avenue for getting a QB.
I think some of these guys who get moved on from will go on and have pretty good careers but time will tell.
I try not to expend too much of my energy anymore in the back and forth of the same arguments day after day after day. I don't know how some of you have the endurance for it, so I'm not going to bother with the semantic debate over the appropriate definition of "terrible".
But I can't let your little nugget of "(DG has) been a bigger disaster for this organization than Ray Handley." slip through without the acknowledgement that it deserves. The breathtaking abject stupidity of this comment made me double check the user name and leads me to believe that you're completely ignorant of history, you're a fool, or you're trolling. I guess I suspect it's the third now. You speak anymore so authoritatively about subjects about which we will never have all the facts, and you veer now into disingenuousness as you clearly have multiple standards that you apply to various personnel and situations. You speak with such confidence that you're right about everything, which is a great attribute I guess except as I remember it your big idea to save the franchise was to draft TJ Hockensen with the 6th pick in the 2019 draft. Would the organization be in a meaningfully better place right now if DG had followed your advice?
Maybe you're too young to remember exactly what Ray Handley did to a team coming off a Super Bowl win with the greatest defensive player in the history of the sport. I guess I gave you too much credit before...
Be careful with this. Real life NFL personnel people think differently than armchair QBs on the interwebz.
Quote:
In comment 15210321 Producer said:
Quote:
He did a great quick podcast analysis of Darnold early in the season. It was very instructive.
In it he mentions that Darnold makes occasional plays that make you go wow, that was great. But then he makes just as many mistakes that are so fundamental even high school QBs have mastered them, and it makes you wonder why Darnold hasn't mastered them yet, and if he ever will. Because if he can't master these things, he can't be a successful NFL starter.
In the same podcast he insists that pro QB analysts can judge a QB regardless of his context, because they are looking at concise, repeatable actions and moments. Which is why the mantra on here that we can't judge Jones based on what has already happened is bunk. But that's another story.
If anyone has an interest in this Cosell podcast appearance I can find it pretty easily and link it here.
Bunk? Bullshit. Jones was displaying bad decision making and he was indecisive, he was holding the ball too long through the first 7-8 games of 2020. And then he played much better through the final 8 games. As usual, this is ignored by you and a few others around here.
Again, no one doubts that Jones was struggling first half of 2020. Shit even Judge alluded to this.
Yea they reigned him in and instead of turning the ball over, an improvement, he couldn't move the offense, a set back. I don't think by the end of the year Jones looked very good at all. His game resembled Brock Osweiler's.
Ok. That's a laughable comparison but whatever works for you. Watch the Skins, Philly and Dallas games again. You need to if that's the comparison you came up with.
Quote:
I don't get the line of thought that this was a good deal. Maybe in terms of just how much Darnold sucks "at this point in time" it is. However they traded up to then spend the 3rd pick in Rd 1 on this guy just 3 years ago. Now they walk away with a 2nd, 4th, and 6th, plus they have to "reboot" the whole QB "use the #3 pick thing" all again. In a sense they wasted 3 years for what, a 2nd rd pick next year?
No wonder Jets fans are irate.
Are Jet fans irate? friends have seemed to like the trade.
They take a QB at 2.. You then have another 1st, a 2nd and 2 3rds this year and then 2 firsts and 2 seconds next year. Not a bad amount of quality picks to build around him
I know plenty of Jets fans, including my brother, who are not happy for all the reasons I listed above. If this was the Giants many here would likely be ripping the organization. Its been a terrible 3 years for them. Just because they have some picks lined up moving forward doesn't relieve them of the horrible past and present. Plus these are picks, who knows how they turn out.
Yes Jets fans are not happy on wasting all this time on Darnold, and only getting a 2nd next year (the other picks came from other places). Plus remember they traded up to get him.
They aren't trading Jones this draft so why does it matter?
I mean anyone could make this trade. Doesn't take amazing foresight or talent to trade a struggling QB for decent draft capital.
This is all roses and sunshine for the Jets. Cleaning house is always easy, the hard part is building the team back up again and actually winning. Jets need to nail the QB pick. They usually fuck it up. I'd be nervous about picking a QB that feasted on lousy teams but some of those kids translate to the pros. Time will tell.
They traded three 2nd round picks to move up 3 spots and draft Sam Darnold #3 overall.
So they gave up a 1st and three 2nd round picks on a QB that is no longer on the roster three years later, and in return got a 2nd, 4th, and 6th and have no QB.
Oh, but I guess they are forward thinking and not afraid to cut ties. Oh, and THIS TIME they'll get it right considering their long history of successful drafting.
Massive failure.
Quote:
In comment 15211022 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
I don't get the line of thought that this was a good deal. Maybe in terms of just how much Darnold sucks "at this point in time" it is. However they traded up to then spend the 3rd pick in Rd 1 on this guy just 3 years ago. Now they walk away with a 2nd, 4th, and 6th, plus they have to "reboot" the whole QB "use the #3 pick thing" all again. In a sense they wasted 3 years for what, a 2nd rd pick next year?
No wonder Jets fans are irate.
Are Jet fans irate? friends have seemed to like the trade.
They take a QB at 2.. You then have another 1st, a 2nd and 2 3rds this year and then 2 firsts and 2 seconds next year. Not a bad amount of quality picks to build around him
I know plenty of Jets fans, including my brother, who are not happy for all the reasons I listed above. If this was the Giants many here would likely be ripping the organization. Its been a terrible 3 years for them. Just because they have some picks lined up moving forward doesn't relieve them of the horrible past and present. Plus these are picks, who knows how they turn out.
Yes Jets fans are not happy on wasting all this time on Darnold, and only getting a 2nd next year (the other picks came from other places). Plus remember they traded up to get him.
There's probably a split between Jet fans; those who think Sam can still turn it around with a better supporting cast, and those who accepted his time with the Jets were done.
Those in the former camp are probably annoyed and those in the later camp are happy.
The organization clearly doesn't think Sam is the answer so they can't just keep him because they gave up draft picks to get him a few years ago
They traded three 2nd round picks to move up 3 spots and draft Sam Darnold #3 overall.
So they gave up a 1st and three 2nd round picks on a QB that is no longer on the roster three years later, and in return got a 2nd, 4th, and 6th and have no QB.
Oh, but I guess they are forward thinking and not afraid to cut ties. Oh, and THIS TIME they'll get it right considering their long history of successful drafting.
Massive failure.
+1
As far as the Giants, I'm assuming you're talking about the Giants with that statement, recognizing failure and moving on from a pick or free agent signing is in fact a good thing.
However, I cannot recall any Giants where such a high stakes player was cut, as in top 5 pick that we traded multiple future draft picks to go get. Maybe you can refresh my memory to to a similar situation. Even if Saquon was cut (which would be bad enough even though I don't envision it happening), he's still just a single draft pick. We did not trade multiple future picks to go get him.
They only traded a 3rd and 5th to move up to 10.
If Darnold goes to Carolina and rebounds, this will be even worse.
Darnold was always going to be a project coming out. The Jets front office and head coach was a disaster, and yes I can relate.
But I'm not ready to give up on Jones either.
This was strangely repeatedly brought up when the Cards drafted Murray and when the Redskins released Haskins. Where are the Skins now? With an aging QB who doesn't have a single playoff appearance
What I don't get is that the same people talking about moving from mistakes quickly as a positive, kill the Giants for every misstep.
If Darnold goes to Carolina and rebounds, this will be even worse.
Not a fair shake in terms of only getting 3 years, or something else?
Quote:
but he (Darnold) may also not have gotten a fair shake.
If Darnold goes to Carolina and rebounds, this will be even worse.
Not a fair shake in terms of only getting 3 years, or something else?
Well, like Jones, I think he was also the victim of a poor roster and lame dunk coach in Gase.
This was strangely repeatedly brought up when the Cards drafted Murray and when the Redskins released Haskins. Where are the Skins now? With an aging QB who doesn't have a single playoff appearance
What I don't get is that the same people talking about moving from mistakes quickly as a positive, kill the Giants for every misstep.
What you don’t get is it’s actually the opposite...
Quote:
In comment 15211186 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
but he (Darnold) may also not have gotten a fair shake.
If Darnold goes to Carolina and rebounds, this will be even worse.
Not a fair shake in terms of only getting 3 years, or something else?
Well, like Jones, I think he was also the victim of a poor roster and lame dunk coach in Gase.
Isn’t that often the scenario top QBs get drafted into though?
I felt like he was as much of a product of his environment as anything else.
It's sort of like Mahomes and Jackson. They've never had to struggle with bad rosters and lame duck coaches.
Quote:
do people want to give kudos for recognizing a mistake and pivoting quickly as if the mistake is fixed when it isn't?
This was strangely repeatedly brought up when the Cards drafted Murray and when the Redskins released Haskins. Where are the Skins now? With an aging QB who doesn't have a single playoff appearance
What I don't get is that the same people talking about moving from mistakes quickly as a positive, kill the Giants for every misstep.
What you don’t get is it’s actually the opposite...
LOL. Jimmy Clownshoes. The guy who referenced Jonathan Stewart daily. Sure, Chief.
I think the Jets got a decent haul for a guy who was going to be a backup for them this year. The Darnold experience was horrid for the Jets.
@RichCimini
#Jets recent first-round picks:
2018 Darnold: traded.
2017 Jamal Adams: traded
2016 Darron Lee: traded
2015 Leonard Williams: traded
2014 Calvin Pryor: traded
2013 Dee Milliner: Cut.
2013 Sheldon Richardson: traded
2012 Quinton Coples: Cut.
2011 Muhammad Wilkerson: Cut.
Quote:
In comment 15211192 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
do people want to give kudos for recognizing a mistake and pivoting quickly as if the mistake is fixed when it isn't?
This was strangely repeatedly brought up when the Cards drafted Murray and when the Redskins released Haskins. Where are the Skins now? With an aging QB who doesn't have a single playoff appearance
What I don't get is that the same people talking about moving from mistakes quickly as a positive, kill the Giants for every misstep.
What you don’t get is it’s actually the opposite...
LOL. Jimmy Clownshoes. The guy who referenced Jonathan Stewart daily. Sure, Chief.
What are babbling about? Folks like you on the site often would defend that DG made some bad mistakes but realized it and got out of them early versus prior regimes. These weren’t his critics making this statement.
And the only clown laughing out loud seemingly is you today...
The failure is the pick, and then bending over backwards to try to make the pick work. Trading Jones (or Darnold) isn't the failure; it's the end of the error.
The Jets are about to start another rookie QB contract with a really talented prospect - they're a year ahead of us in the cycle.
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In comment 15210984 Jimmy Googs said:
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dealing Jones per the above post? Or does any pick in Rd 1 work?
I'm not suggesting it. I was referring to people here continually bashing Jones and now suggesting they could get a #1 for him.
Let me try to slow this down for you.
I'm not saying I would give up a first for Jones. But the market just might because a team gave up a 2,4 and 6 for Ghost Darnold. So why would it be such a leap to think we could possibly - amazingly - get a first for Jones?
I hope that helps add color to your world.
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I would also consider that a massive failure.
The failure is the pick, and then bending over backwards to try to make the pick work. Trading Jones (or Darnold) isn't the failure; it's the end of the error.
The Jets are about to start another rookie QB contract with a really talented prospect - they're a year ahead of us in the cycle.
Why is it OK to completely design an offense for Jackson but getting Jones players is bending over backwards?
The answer seems obvious.
Jackson was your guy and Jones was not your guy.
Not a great look.
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I would also consider that a massive failure.
The failure is the pick, and then bending over backwards to try to make the pick work. Trading Jones (or Darnold) isn't the failure; it's the end of the error.
The Jets are about to start another rookie QB contract with a really talented prospect - they're a year ahead of us in the cycle.
WTF are you even talking about anymore? A year ahead of us in what cycle?
I felt like he was as much of a product of his environment as anything else.
It's sort of like Mahomes and Jackson. They've never had to struggle with bad rosters and lame duck coaches.
Yeah. I don’t watch the Jets much but the bust label is going to come out from many based on him going 3rd and expectations being high.
Seeing ghosts doesn’t help his case. :-)
Doesn’t anybody want to ever play for the Jets...
Let me try to slow this down for you.
I'm not saying I would give up a first for Jones. But the market just might because a team gave up a 2,4 and 6 for Ghost Darnold. So why would it be such a leap to think we could possibly - amazingly - get a first for Jones?
I hope that helps add color to your world.
Darnold was a more coveted prospect than Jones. Not saying better, but I am think many feel he is the better prospect. I am not among them. I was never for Darnold.
I understand Darnold went 3rd overall compared to Jones at the 6th pick the following year. But using actual performance in the NFL, to date, Darnold is one of the few QBs that Jones looks fairly competent against...
So if you put more credibility on that, which would seem like the right thing to do, Jones would seem more valuable on the market. Just look at Darnold's performance over his three years. They are pretty ugly. Now, he's had some flashes - the second half of '19 - but that's really it as a high mark.
1. Poor OL - this has not been solved; if anything the line looks like it will be thinner
2. Poor pocket presence from Jones
3. A scheme that doesn't utilize what Jones does well, and actually seems to be designed to have him make plays from the pocket
Chris684 - the Jets moved on from their QB mistake this year. I expect we'll be doing that next year. That's what I'm talking about.
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In comment 15211027 bw in dc said:
Let me try to slow this down for you.
I'm not saying I would give up a first for Jones. But the market just might because a team gave up a 2,4 and 6 for Ghost Darnold. So why would it be such a leap to think we could possibly - amazingly - get a first for Jones?
I hope that helps add color to your world.
Darnold was a more coveted prospect than Jones. Not saying better, but I am think many feel he is the better prospect. I am not among them. I was never for Darnold.
I understand Darnold went 3rd overall compared to Jones at the 6th pick the following year. But using actual performance in the NFL, to date, Darnold is one of the few QBs that Jones looks fairly competent against...
So if you put more credibility on that, which would seem like the right thing to do, Jones would seem more valuable on the market. Just look at Darnold's performance over his three years. They are pretty ugly. Now, he's had some flashes - the second half of '19 - but that's really it as a high mark.
1. Poor OL - this has not been solved; if anything the line looks like it will be thinner
2. Poor pocket presence from Jones
3. A scheme that doesn't utilize what Jones does well, and actually seems to be designed to have him make plays from the pocket
Chris684 - the Jets moved on from their QB mistake this year. I expect we'll be doing that next year. That's what I'm talking about.
You have painted yourself into a corner. DG's legacy is tied to Jones. If Jones has a good year, DG stays and will be given credit. You are going to become the BBI whipping boy forever if that happens.
You are in a tough spot.
But right now the burden of proof is on Jones. He has been terrible for two years. That's objectively true, no matter how many excuses people want to make for him.
He'll be better in 2021 than he was in 2020, but that's only because it's next to impossible to be worse than he was. Given the low standards around here I expect even a minimal improvement will be hailed as a great success.
That is a ludicrous statement.
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grateful - I'm not especially excited, no. A deep ball target for Jones hasn't been the problem. The problem has been a combination of:
1. Poor OL - this has not been solved; if anything the line looks like it will be thinner
2. Poor pocket presence from Jones
3. A scheme that doesn't utilize what Jones does well, and actually seems to be designed to have him make plays from the pocket
Chris684 - the Jets moved on from their QB mistake this year. I expect we'll be doing that next year. That's what I'm talking about.
We get to see this year. I disagree with you. What I can promise is that if Jones stinks it up in 2021, I will not make excuses. This is the year. Unlike most on BBI I am inclined to admit mistakes.
You have painted yourself into a corner. DG's legacy is tied to Jones. If Jones has a good year, DG stays and will be given credit. You are going to become the BBI whipping boy forever if that happens.
You are in a tough spot.
Oh my, what a tough spot to be in...
I would agree with other ways of describing his performance, such as, tentative, slow to get rid of ball, needs to improve ball security, inconsistent...
I would agree the jury is still out, but "terrible" is over-stating his level of performance.
If he were on the Eagles, we'd all be saying terrible.
I think this is a good trade for the Jets. They're in a good spot to build around Wilson, who I think is a really good prospect. I'd be excited if I were them.
I thought after 3 years DG deserved to be let go.
I stand by that.
They didn't because they liked they way he worked with Judge.
The Giants did not do what I felt was best for the organization.
I came to forums and expressed my disappointment.
After that.
I let it go.
Whether I was right or wrong about DG or Jones is meaningless.
Regardless, he will be every opportunity to prove whether he is the guy.
I agree with that. The optimists among us see promise and are bullish that with better and more stable OL play, better blocking from TE and RB spots, more weapons, and a second year with the coaching staff will pay big dividends with him. It's really as simple as that.
Otherwise...
I aint burying him yet though. He has shown me enough to be optimistic.
I think some of these guys who get moved on from will go on and have pretty good careers but time will tell.
But I can't let your little nugget of "(DG has) been a bigger disaster for this organization than Ray Handley." slip through without the acknowledgement that it deserves. The breathtaking abject stupidity of this comment made me double check the user name and leads me to believe that you're completely ignorant of history, you're a fool, or you're trolling. I guess I suspect it's the third now. You speak anymore so authoritatively about subjects about which we will never have all the facts, and you veer now into disingenuousness as you clearly have multiple standards that you apply to various personnel and situations. You speak with such confidence that you're right about everything, which is a great attribute I guess except as I remember it your big idea to save the franchise was to draft TJ Hockensen with the 6th pick in the 2019 draft. Would the organization be in a meaningfully better place right now if DG had followed your advice?
Maybe you're too young to remember exactly what Ray Handley did to a team coming off a Super Bowl win with the greatest defensive player in the history of the sport. I guess I gave you too much credit before...
Maybe look to trade Bridgewater, depending on what they see in Darnold?