at least all agree that we want the team to go undefeated.
As an added bonus, we get to see if the guy with the stick shoved up his ass will complain that DG still isn't at .500 yet.
And I'm looking forward to see how you guys rationalize another losing season.
I just don't get how you can say that will be the case. There is really nothing to suggest that it would be. I think, as is your wont, your just posting by emotion.
are all time greats. They not only had incredible skills as a RB they had perhaps a trait overlooked. Being available. I don't think Jim Brown ever missed a play in 9 years. Sanders, Dickerson, Emmitt I do not recall missing much time.
Barkley is a unique talent but he needs to be on the field. Jones has had his own injury issues and part of his injuries are his fault imo. It may not be fair but it is part of the evaluation.
RE: RE: RE: I really fail to see what 2018 means anymore
nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
Uh, for the memory challenged (may I suggest Prevagen as a solution), those eras for those RBs were COMPLETELY different to today's brand of football. Those eras were focused on the running game as the primary means to move the football.
JFC...send me your address and I will send you Football for Dummies, BBI edition.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I really fail to see what 2018 means anymore
nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
Uh, for the memory challenged (may I suggest Prevagen as a solution), those eras for those RBs were COMPLETELY different to today's brand of football. Those eras were focused on the running game as the primary means to move the football.
JFC...send me your address and I will send you Football for Dummies, BBI edition.
Firstly, you have my address. Secondly, I’ve seen the book and the beautiful dedication in your honor..
And to your attempt at minimizing the passing game in the
‘60s and ‘70s where they had Namath, Unitas, Tarkenton, Brodie, Jurgenson, Hadl, Stabler, to name some? Even Archie Manning slung it.
How about the ‘80s and ‘90s with Marino, Fouts, Moon, Esiason, Elway and Montana to name some as well? They didn’t sling it either? Maybe they didn’t throw it 40-50 times a game as a rule, but they threw it plenty.
Different era? As though they wouldn’t have drafted Brown, Sanders, Payton, Dickerson et al very high TODAY as well..
You should though since you love to conjure up 2018 and 2019 at every turn.
I don't even care anymore about those years. MAybe they are excuses and maybe DG walked into Mara's office and demanded that ELi be given another year or so (nope) and maybe he insisted on hiring Shurmur despite some better options available (nope nope) --fine, we can agree that DG didn't have a good 2018 campaign, I won't excuse that even if we all know there were, but fine, roast him for 2018.
Can we just look to 21 and see how this thing looks with another year of Judge in the fold and more cohesiveness with the coaching? You act like teams ALWAYS dramatically improve in 2 years time and if not, cut bait. It's not always that simple. Look forward. We might be on to something here. If not, trust me, you're going to get your pound of flesh. I don't think we want that to happen. I know I don't.
No, that's not how any relationship works. You can't just hand wave away the past. If I walked up to you 3 days in a row and punched you in the face, are you going to offer to shake my hand on the 4th day?
DG, and Mara too, deserve no benefit of the doubt for the way this team has been run since DG was hired (and for Mara since TC was fired). Why should we believe that things are just going to magically get better? Certainly JJ is a step in the right direction, but until proven otherwise DGs Giants are a bad team and we should continue to expect them to be bad until he's fired.
As far as cutting bait goes. Kiper was in TMKS today talking about the Darnold trade and he said "I grew up on the era when you used to develop a quarterback. Now of you're not lights out by year three, especially year four, you're getting kicked to the curb."
This can be extrapolated to HCs, GMs, and even other sports. It's produce or get out and give the next guy a try. Patience doesn't exist in pro team sports any more.
RE: And to your attempt at minimizing the passing game in the
‘60s and ‘70s where they had Namath, Unitas, Tarkenton, Brodie, Jurgenson, Hadl, Stabler, to name some? Even Archie Manning slung it.
How about the ‘80s and ‘90s with Marino, Fouts, Moon, Esiason, Elway and Montana to name some as well? They didn’t sling it either? Maybe they didn’t throw it 40-50 times a game as a rule, but they threw it plenty.
Different era? As though they wouldn’t have drafted Brown, Sanders, Payton, Dickerson et al very high TODAY as well..
You should though since you love to conjure up 2018 and 2019 at every turn.
I don't even care anymore about those years. MAybe they are excuses and maybe DG walked into Mara's office and demanded that ELi be given another year or so (nope) and maybe he insisted on hiring Shurmur despite some better options available (nope nope) --fine, we can agree that DG didn't have a good 2018 campaign, I won't excuse that even if we all know there were, but fine, roast him for 2018.
Can we just look to 21 and see how this thing looks with another year of Judge in the fold and more cohesiveness with the coaching? You act like teams ALWAYS dramatically improve in 2 years time and if not, cut bait. It's not always that simple. Look forward. We might be on to something here. If not, trust me, you're going to get your pound of flesh. I don't think we want that to happen. I know I don't.
No, that's not how any relationship works. You can't just hand wave away the past. If I walked up to you 3 days in a row and punched you in the face, are you going to offer to shake my hand on the 4th day?
DG, and Mara too, deserve no benefit of the doubt for the way this team has been run since DG was hired (and for Mara since TC was fired). Why should we believe that things are just going to magically get better? Certainly JJ is a step in the right direction, but until proven otherwise DGs Giants are a bad team and we should continue to expect them to be bad until he's fired.
As far as cutting bait goes. Kiper was in TMKS today talking about the Darnold trade and he said "I grew up on the era when you used to develop a quarterback. Now of you're not lights out by year three, especially year four, you're getting kicked to the curb."
This can be extrapolated to HCs, GMs, and even other sports. It's produce or get out and give the next guy a try. Patience doesn't exist in pro team sports any more.
Quote:
As far as cutting bait goes. Kiper was in TMKS today talking about the Darnold trade and he said "I grew up on the era when you used to develop a quarterback. Now of you're not lights out by year three, especially year four, you're getting kicked to the curb."
This can be extrapolated to HCs, GMs, and even other sports. It's produce or get out and give the next guy a try. Patience doesn't exist in pro team sports any more.
Except after 25 games, many want to do exactly that with Jones..
RE: RE: RE: I really fail to see what 2018 means anymore
nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
it's almost as if the salary cap, positional value, and any knowledge of how teams win in the modern NFL are completely foreign to you.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Who’s the pilot making the errors?
You should though since you love to conjure up 2018 and 2019 at every turn.
I don't even care anymore about those years. MAybe they are excuses and maybe DG walked into Mara's office and demanded that ELi be given another year or so (nope) and maybe he insisted on hiring Shurmur despite some better options available (nope nope) --fine, we can agree that DG didn't have a good 2018 campaign, I won't excuse that even if we all know there were, but fine, roast him for 2018.
Can we just look to 21 and see how this thing looks with another year of Judge in the fold and more cohesiveness with the coaching? You act like teams ALWAYS dramatically improve in 2 years time and if not, cut bait. It's not always that simple. Look forward. We might be on to something here. If not, trust me, you're going to get your pound of flesh. I don't think we want that to happen. I know I don't.
No, that's not how any relationship works. You can't just hand wave away the past. If I walked up to you 3 days in a row and punched you in the face, are you going to offer to shake my hand on the 4th day?
DG, and Mara too, deserve no benefit of the doubt for the way this team has been run since DG was hired (and for Mara since TC was fired). Why should we believe that things are just going to magically get better? Certainly JJ is a step in the right direction, but until proven otherwise DGs Giants are a bad team and we should continue to expect them to be bad until he's fired.
As far as cutting bait goes. Kiper was in TMKS today talking about the Darnold trade and he said "I grew up on the era when you used to develop a quarterback. Now of you're not lights out by year three, especially year four, you're getting kicked to the curb."
This can be extrapolated to HCs, GMs, and even other sports. It's produce or get out and give the next guy a try. Patience doesn't exist in pro team sports any more.
Quote:
As far as cutting bait goes. Kiper was in TMKS today talking about the Darnold trade and he said "I grew up on the era when you used to develop a quarterback. Now of you're not lights out by year three, especially year four, you're getting kicked to the curb."
This can be extrapolated to HCs, GMs, and even other sports. It's produce or get out and give the next guy a try. Patience doesn't exist in pro team sports any more.
Except after 25 games, many want to do exactly that with Jones..
And if the Giants were picking #2 it absolutely should have been considered
RE: RE: RE: RE: I really fail to see what 2018 means anymore
nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
it's almost as if the salary cap, positional value, and any knowledge of how teams win in the modern NFL are completely foreign to you.
Yes, foreign to me..Lawd
RE: And to your attempt at minimizing the passing game in the
‘60s and ‘70s where they had Namath, Unitas, Tarkenton, Brodie, Jurgenson, Hadl, Stabler, to name some? Even Archie Manning slung it.
How about the ‘80s and ‘90s with Marino, Fouts, Moon, Esiason, Elway and Montana to name some as well? They didn’t sling it either? Maybe they didn’t throw it 40-50 times a game as a rule, but they threw it plenty.
Different era? As though they wouldn’t have drafted Brown, Sanders, Payton, Dickerson et al very high TODAY as well..
In today's game? I wouldn't draft any of those RBs in the first round - unless I was a perennial contender (like the Pats, Chiefs, GB, etc) and happened to have an incredibly high pick. I have to be consistent.
Do you really want to compare pass attempts of the '60s, '70s. '80's etc to today's games. I don't even have to look it up and feel pretty damn good that those eras had more rushing attempts than passing attempts for winning teams. That's how teams won back then...
RE: RE: And to your attempt at minimizing the passing game in the
‘60s and ‘70s where they had Namath, Unitas, Tarkenton, Brodie, Jurgenson, Hadl, Stabler, to name some? Even Archie Manning slung it.
How about the ‘80s and ‘90s with Marino, Fouts, Moon, Esiason, Elway and Montana to name some as well? They didn’t sling it either? Maybe they didn’t throw it 40-50 times a game as a rule, but they threw it plenty.
Different era? As though they wouldn’t have drafted Brown, Sanders, Payton, Dickerson et al very high TODAY as well..
In today's game? I wouldn't draft any of those RBs in the first round - unless I was a perennial contender (like the Pats, Chiefs, GB, etc) and happened to have an incredibly high pick. I have to be consistent.
Do you really want to compare pass attempts of the '60s, '70s. '80's etc to today's games. I don't even have to look it up and feel pretty damn good that those eras had more rushing attempts than passing attempts for winning teams. That's how teams won back then...
Look up points production, not rushing vs passing attempts..The ground game was certainly vital, but the passing games from the aforementioned were the difference-makers..
If your contention is that you wouldn’t draft a Jim Brown, Barkley and the OTHERS I mentioned in the first round, then we have nothing more to talk about towards this end
RE: RE: RE: And to your attempt at minimizing the passing game in the
If your contention is that you wouldn’t draft a Jim Brown, Barkley and the OTHERS I mentioned in the first round, then we have nothing more to talk about towards this end
I wouldn't. But it's a silly argument because it wouldn't be based on what we know now about those names (their NFL production) but how they produced in college.
I honestly feel like BB56, FMiC, etc. are better fans than me. Way more commitment to the team, faith in the program, etc.
I'm only 38, so I haven't experienced the lows and highs of many fans. Maybe I don't have perspective or the team doesn't have the good will banked with me like some.
What I see is a three year run with 33 loses under current management. Going back to George Young, the most loses in three years under any GM.
It's not been kind of bad, it's like a once in 40 year storm bad. It's a credibility damaging run, that followed up a credibility damaging run (Rees + McAdoo).
Personally for me, to get me back in the column where I expect the decisions the Giants make to work, it's going to take more than a 6 win season.
Tell me I'm being illogically to be nervous about:
- Daniel Jones leading the in fumbles in consecutive years, coming off a 14 game 11 TD season
- Saquon Barkley coming off a torn ACL, and second consecutive season where injury has dramatically limited his productivity
- An offensive line as of today relying on an UDFA, 5th rounder, 3rd rounder, and a potentially the massively disappointing Nate Solder
If management was getting more things right than wrong, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. But it's not been that way.
do give them the benefit of the doubt because you still watch the games and follow the team.
It's like fans using nice sounding threats like "I'm going to hold them accountable". Cool. How?
There are a few posters who have spent almost every day for the past three years complaining about the GM. And he still sits there. He still makes moves. At some point, you'd think people would glance at a mirror and see that all the gnashing of teeth has given are headaches and ground enamel.
When things are out of your control, a benefit of doubt or accountability really doesn't mean anything at all.
do give them the benefit of the doubt because you still watch the games and follow the team.
It's like fans using nice sounding threats like "I'm going to hold them accountable". Cool. How?
There are a few posters who have spent almost every day for the past three years complaining about the GM. And he still sits there. He still makes moves. At some point, you'd think people would glance at a mirror and see that all the gnashing of teeth has given are headaches and ground enamel.
When things are out of your control, a benefit of doubt or accountability really doesn't mean anything at all.
I don't think there is anything wrong with rooting for a team and at the same time being critical if I think they are pursuing illogical or non-rational moves or strategy.
I think all of us who post on BBI are in the top, top echelon of Giants fans. We're on a freaking message board talking/arguing with-for the most part-strangers about the Giants. I'd wager to guess that means the Giants are quite important to all of us. Calling someone a better fan than others...whatever. Some of us are optimists, some are pessimists, & some are in the middle.
I honestly feel like BB56, FMiC, etc. are better fans than me. Way more commitment to the team, faith in the program, etc.
I'm only 38, so I haven't experienced the lows and highs of many fans. Maybe I don't have perspective or the team doesn't have the good will banked with me like some.
What I see is a three year run with 33 loses under current management. Going back to George Young, the most loses in three years under any GM.
It's not been kind of bad, it's like a once in 40 year storm bad. It's a credibility damaging run, that followed up a credibility damaging run (Rees + McAdoo).
Personally for me, to get me back in the column where I expect the decisions the Giants make to work, it's going to take more than a 6 win season.
Tell me I'm being illogically to be nervous about:
- Daniel Jones leading the in fumbles in consecutive years, coming off a 14 game 11 TD season
- Saquon Barkley coming off a torn ACL, and second consecutive season where injury has dramatically limited his productivity
- An offensive line as of today relying on an UDFA, 5th rounder, 3rd rounder, and a potentially the massively disappointing Nate Solder
If management was getting more things right than wrong, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. But it's not been that way.
It’s not really that. Your narrative about fumbles really applied to his first year. He was much improved in year two. Were his INTs because of Engram’s tips, bad throws? Probably both, but INTs are happening at a pretty good rate around the league. But yeah, he needs to continue to clean things up and not become a headcase over his TOs..That part is on him.
I also felt he was beginning to get comfortable in Garrett’s O (as JG was reacclimating to PC himself) and he was moving the chains quite well until he got hurt. After that, they could tee off on him given that he really couldn’t move all that well..He did surprise me in how well he played in the season finale, given that his mobility was still rather shot..If he was healthy? No wuestion in my mind we win the division with a .500 record. Just an opinion and unprovable. We shall see moving forward.
It’s not that we’re “homers” as posters like to label us; more like, “okay, year 2 under Judge and Garrett, DJ should be more comfortable with his new weapons, a healthy Barkley (fingers crossed),etc.”
Again, I didn’t want DG here and he’s made some headscratching moves at times, but my fanhood is focused on Judge’s team, how well he apparently works with DG and how hard his players have played for him and that DJ deserves some big time slack after only 25 games.
We’re not better fans by any stretch. We’re perhaps more patient, especially since there’s a new sheriff in town and the players seem to have bought into him. Also TBD..
So I will let the naysayers dwell on the 15-33 record. I will dwell on 6-10, not because it’s a good record, that’s not the case. It’s the 0-5 and 1-7 ending with 5-3, that I’m hanging my positive energy on. Years ‘18 and ‘19 mean nothing to me as it’s not germain to our current team, imv. DG I felt had a good draft during JG’s first year (but time will tell) and on paper I like what he’s done in FA..
I am responding in length to you because I KNOW you will hear what I’m saying, whether you agree with me or not..
I once wondered what '64-'81 would have like on BBI. That would have been a dark, dark place. And I guarantee that plane flies over Giants Stadium a helluva lot earlier than after the fiasco vs. the Eagles in '78.
do give them the benefit of the doubt because you still watch the games and follow the team.
It's like fans using nice sounding threats like "I'm going to hold them accountable". Cool. How?
There are a few posters who have spent almost every day for the past three years complaining about the GM. And he still sits there. He still makes moves. At some point, you'd think people would glance at a mirror and see that all the gnashing of teeth has given are headaches and ground enamel.
When things are out of your control, a benefit of doubt or accountability really doesn't mean anything at all.
I vote with my dollars — since 2017 onward I’ve attended fewer than half the games I previously did. I’ve purposefully not spent a dollar on anything team related. The team not being very good and not having the brand popularity in the metro area, was also a big factor in me voting at my former company to not renew agreements or pursue new advertising at the stadium. Those dollars went to some kick ass ads at Yankee Stadium.
There are also posters who have spent the last 3 years defending the moves management has made. And yet the team keeps losing.
If real world world outcomes are the driving factor of what we are and are not allowed to bitch about as fans, then Eric should just close up and retire the site, no?
1. I share concerns about Jones. I am less concerned with fumbling at this point. I worry about the big throws in tight windows at game changing moments. This is the factor that separates the average from someone you can win a championship with.
2. Many great or very good OL’s are built with low picks The Giants very good OL of 2004-10 had a 5th, UDFA, UDFA, 2nd,, 3rd from left to right. Pats are the same and they often let many go. It is the position where you don’t need great measureables. You also can help your cap in this position group.
3. Giants have had a bad run. Dave has missed. People denying this are off base imo. It is really hard to win in the NFL though . Dave is correct with his mantra. Execution has been slow. They are closer than many think imo but Jones will have to take a major step. Overall the Giants have been very good at going the distance the last 35 years in the most competitive division. 10 Super Bowls. It could be a lot worse.
I once wondered what '64-'81 would have like on BBI. That would have been a dark, dark place. And I guarantee that plane flies over Giants Stadium a helluva lot earlier than after the fiasco vs. the Eagles in '78.
It’s not really that. Your narrative about fumbles really applied to his first year. He was much improved in year two. Were his INTs because of Engram’s tips, bad throws? Probably both, but INTs are happening at a pretty good rate around the league. But yeah, he needs to continue to clean things up and not become a headcase over his TOs..That part is on him.
Did you research any of this? Interceptions are down leaguewide each of the last two years. Jones led the league in fumbles (11) in 2020, as he did in 2019 (18)...consider that he didn't play a full 16 games either year. Saying he improved with the fumbles is disingenuous; he was still worst in the league.
The other day someone suggested Jones didn't fumble much in the second half of the season - not true. Where are the self-appointed defenders of the faith to point out these errors? People get pissed at me for being critical; but you won't find me just making stats up.
Also, this may be the third year in a row we've had to hear about second half momentum carrying over into the following season. It never materializes. Besides, I don't know how finishing the season 1-3 in four must-win games is a feather in the cap, but what do I know?
I once wondered what '64-'81 would have like on BBI. That would have been a dark, dark place. And I guarantee that plane flies over Giants Stadium a helluva lot earlier than after the fiasco vs. the Eagles in '78.
Dark because there was no internet?
Bill L, if there was an Internet back then...Haha.
I honestly feel like BB56, FMiC, etc. are better fans than me. Way more commitment to the team, faith in the program, etc.
I'm only 38, so I haven't experienced the lows and highs of many fans. Maybe I don't have perspective or the team doesn't have the good will banked with me like some.
What I see is a three year run with 33 loses under current management. Going back to George Young, the most loses in three years under any GM.
It's not been kind of bad, it's like a once in 40 year storm bad. It's a credibility damaging run, that followed up a credibility damaging run (Rees + McAdoo).
Personally for me, to get me back in the column where I expect the decisions the Giants make to work, it's going to take more than a 6 win season.
Tell me I'm being illogically to be nervous about:
- Daniel Jones leading the in fumbles in consecutive years, coming off a 14 game 11 TD season
- Saquon Barkley coming off a torn ACL, and second consecutive season where injury has dramatically limited his productivity
- An offensive line as of today relying on an UDFA, 5th rounder, 3rd rounder, and a potentially the massively disappointing Nate Solder
If management was getting more things right than wrong, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. But it's not been that way.
Minus the first sentence, this post is great, and I agree with pretty much all of it.
I'm 45, I feel you. I guess let me say, that between 38 and 45, A LOT can change. Football/life. Different perspectives. What's interesting is that BBI is a melting pot of all of these perspectives.
And I also am worried about all three things you mentioned.
nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
Uh, for the memory challenged (may I suggest Prevagen as a solution), those eras for those RBs were COMPLETELY different to today's brand of football. Those eras were focused on the running game as the primary means to move the football.
JFC...send me your address and I will send you Football for Dummies, BBI edition.
Firstly, you have my address. Secondly, I’ve seen the book and the beautiful dedication in your honor..
This was an old school BBI response right here. Strong.
RE: And I also am worried about all three things you mentioned.
do give them the benefit of the doubt because you still watch the games and follow the team.
It's like fans using nice sounding threats like "I'm going to hold them accountable". Cool. How?
There are a few posters who have spent almost every day for the past three years complaining about the GM. And he still sits there. He still makes moves. At some point, you'd think people would glance at a mirror and see that all the gnashing of teeth has given are headaches and ground enamel.
When things are out of your control, a benefit of doubt or accountability really doesn't mean anything at all.
And you likely have spent almost every day for the past three years complaining about posters who complain about the GM.
At some point you’d think you would glance at a mirror too...
If he says to put the helmets on backwards, put them on backwards. I am a complete believer in him.
Where I deviate from some here is I am skeptical as to how much say he has over Jones and Barkley being centerpiece players. He is not connected to their acquisition, and in one year together Jones was bad and Barkley was hurt. If Judge wants to explore moving on from either, I wonder if they would. No way of knowing for sure, I suppose.
If he says to put the helmets on backwards, put them on backwards. I am a complete believer in him.
Where I deviate from some here is I am skeptical as to how much say he has over Jones and Barkley being centerpiece players. He is not connected to their acquisition, and in one year together Jones was bad and Barkley was hurt. If Judge wants to explore moving on from either, I wonder if they would. No way of knowing for sure, I suppose.
And as the wins start coming, so will that power. I already think the ownership, the fan base, and front office might be buying in. And let's not forget how extraordinary the circumstances are for a 39 year old to to have his first NFL head coaching gig in the middle of a pandemic.
If he says to put the helmets on backwards, put them on backwards. I am a complete believer in him.
Where I deviate from some here is I am skeptical as to how much say he has over Jones and Barkley being centerpiece players. He is not connected to their acquisition, and in one year together Jones was bad and Barkley was hurt. If Judge wants to explore moving on from either, I wonder if they would. No way of knowing for sure, I suppose.
I mean besides what he goes out of his way to say over and over again with passion. But other than that, there’s simply no way.
If he says to put the helmets on backwards, put them on backwards. I am a complete believer in him.
Where I deviate from some here is I am skeptical as to how much say he has over Jones and Barkley being centerpiece players. He is not connected to their acquisition, and in one year together Jones was bad and Barkley was hurt. If Judge wants to explore moving on from either, I wonder if they would. No way of knowing for sure, I suppose.
Total guess, but I think JJ has more sway than Gettleman going forward. I think Mara wants him around for awhile & Mara is definitely sensitive to fan opinion & most fans have confidence in Judge than Gettleman, who is up there in age too.
I’m more bullish on the ceiling for Jones and Barkley than some. But I’m very afraid of the floor.
I won’t be surprised if Jones improves a lot next year, and I won’t be surprised if Barkley rounds into shape as the season progresses. But my eyes are wide open about the big hill each has to climb.
I have 100% faith in Judge. Everything about the guy says smart, prepared, thoughtful — and he has great pedigree.
Where I’m skeptical is if the Giants are faced with an unpopular and difficult decision with Jones or Barkley. Will affection, hope, and loyalty be a big factor in their next contract, if health and performance fall short?
I’m more bullish on the ceiling for Jones and Barkley than some. But I’m very afraid of the floor.
I won’t be surprised if Jones improves a lot next year, and I won’t be surprised if Barkley rounds into shape as the season progresses. But my eyes are wide open about the big hill each has to climb.
I have 100% faith in Judge. Everything about the guy says smart, prepared, thoughtful — and he has great pedigree.
Where I’m skeptical is if the Giants are faced with an unpopular and difficult decision with Jones or Barkley. Will affection, hope, and loyalty be a big factor in their next contract, if health and performance fall short?
You may have provided your own answer. If he has great Pedigree (BB and Saban), then he will value “fact” over loyalty and cut ties when necessary, imv
that's just it. If a GM has such a conviction on a player that he's all but certain that player is a star in the making, he should most definitely take him barring only a few exceptions. You want to disagree with that line of thinking that's fine, but its a hell of a lot easier to do so sitting on your couch. And all these "insiders" or former GMs saying they would never take a RB at 2-3-4 can go fuck off for all I care. Fournette went 4th. Zeke went 4th. Gurley went pretty high. Those guys weren't picked by bad GMs. MArshall Faulk was a great pick. So was LDT. And if Barkley wasn't hurt last year he'd be the best offensive player on the 2020 NFC east champions.
Love the pick or hate it, picking him is not what dumb GMs do no matter how much you can scream otherwise. The guy's a HOF talent. Enough already.
Wasn't Tomlinson a 2nd round pick? And Fournette and Gurley are already on their second teams? Didn't Faulk really cement his legacy with his second team? So Zeke is the sample group of ONE that aligns with your position?
I suspect you may have contradicted the point you were trying to make.
I’m more bullish on the ceiling for Jones and Barkley than some. But I’m very afraid of the floor.
I won’t be surprised if Jones improves a lot next year, and I won’t be surprised if Barkley rounds into shape as the season progresses. But my eyes are wide open about the big hill each has to climb.
I have 100% faith in Judge. Everything about the guy says smart, prepared, thoughtful — and he has great pedigree.
Where I’m skeptical is if the Giants are faced with an unpopular and difficult decision with Jones or Barkley. Will affection, hope, and loyalty be a big factor in their next contract, if health and performance fall short?
You may have provided your own answer. If he has great Pedigree (BB and Saban), then he will value “fact” over loyalty and cut ties when necessary, imv
Unless Tomlinson is the case study to inform that shift, we haven't seen it yet.
McAdoo wound up a bumbling fool, but he was right to at least ask to see if the offense would be better/worse/same with another QB. His failure was choosing Geno to be that QB - that he chose the established-but-never-gonna-be-the-future QB as his horse instead of Webb, who many had hopes for, made it clearly a referendum on Eli. And I do think that if we're being fair and leaving sentiment at the door, Eli was up for a referendum at that point, but it was a poor political decision by McAdoo. And these things tend to be political decisions every bit as much as they are football decisions.
So what happens? There is a fan revolt, at least on WFAN, and the team is given back to Eli with McAdoo (and Reese) sent packing. No one messes with the GOAT in East Rutherford, that much is clear.
But everything that followed, with McAdoo and Reese already fired, reeked of loyalty to #10. And I'm not trying to make the case here that such loyalty was unwarranted, but just want to point out that Mara had a reflex reaction to fan outrage that caused him to change course. He had admitted that he approved McAdoo's proposal, but then fired him and Reese a week later when nothing about that dreadful season had changed other than the fan reaction to Eli's benching.
It's a fair question, IMO, to wonder if Mara is capable of ignoring fan sentiment when it comes time to making cold football decisions. Tomlinson may have worn the C patch, but he was never a fan favorite that sold tickets and jerseys and the like. That they let him walk is interesting and perhaps insightful, but I don't think it gives us any sense of how they'll treat Barkley and Jones. The star and the QB exist on a different plane than the blue collar DT, even if the latter was also a team captain. It's just not the same.
that's just it. If a GM has such a conviction on a player that he's all but certain that player is a star in the making, he should most definitely take him barring only a few exceptions. You want to disagree with that line of thinking that's fine, but its a hell of a lot easier to do so sitting on your couch. And all these "insiders" or former GMs saying they would never take a RB at 2-3-4 can go fuck off for all I care. Fournette went 4th. Zeke went 4th. Gurley went pretty high. Those guys weren't picked by bad GMs. MArshall Faulk was a great pick. So was LDT. And if Barkley wasn't hurt last year he'd be the best offensive player on the 2020 NFC east champions.
Love the pick or hate it, picking him is not what dumb GMs do no matter how much you can scream otherwise. The guy's a HOF talent. Enough already.
Wasn't Tomlinson a 2nd round pick? And Fournette and Gurley are already on their second teams? Didn't Faulk really cement his legacy with his second team? So Zeke is the sample group of ONE that aligns with your position?
I suspect you may have contradicted the point you were trying to make.
Just want to correct myself - Tomlinson was most definitely NOT a 2nd round pick. I was confused because Brees was their 2nd round pick in that same draft, and I was thinking about them having had a crazy good draft that year. Talk about a fucking haul - Tomlinson and Brees in the 1st and 2nd rounds and not a single ring to show for it.
I do wonder what would have happened had McAdoo chosen Webb...
Jones throws a GREAT deep ball. A) he fumbles B) OL can’t block C) WR can never get open. If this changes we win a lot of games. Period.
What about the part where he gets flustered in the pocket.
Or where he bones throws to open receivers.
Or where he makes stupid decisions.
Flustered in the pocket? This is where I can't take you seriously. The guy is brave to a FAULT in the pocket, that's where a lot of his first year fumbles came from.
We get it Producer, you hate Daniel Jones. Are you going to keep posting it over, and over, and over, and ov... on every single thread, beating every single thread about it into the ground? I mean HOLY SHIT already with you guys and your irrational Daniel Jones hatred.
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at least all agree that we want the team to go undefeated.
As an added bonus, we get to see if the guy with the stick shoved up his ass will complain that DG still isn't at .500 yet.
And I'm looking forward to see how you guys rationalize another losing season.
I just don't get how you can say that will be the case. There is really nothing to suggest that it would be. I think, as is your wont, your just posting by emotion.
Barkley is a unique talent but he needs to be on the field. Jones has had his own injury issues and part of his injuries are his fault imo. It may not be fair but it is part of the evaluation.
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In comment 15211552 djm said:
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nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
Uh, for the memory challenged (may I suggest Prevagen as a solution), those eras for those RBs were COMPLETELY different to today's brand of football. Those eras were focused on the running game as the primary means to move the football.
JFC...send me your address and I will send you Football for Dummies, BBI edition.
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In comment 15211561 Victor in CT said:
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In comment 15211552 djm said:
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nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
Uh, for the memory challenged (may I suggest Prevagen as a solution), those eras for those RBs were COMPLETELY different to today's brand of football. Those eras were focused on the running game as the primary means to move the football.
JFC...send me your address and I will send you Football for Dummies, BBI edition.
Firstly, you have my address. Secondly, I’ve seen the book and the beautiful dedication in your honor..
‘60s and ‘70s where they had Namath, Unitas, Tarkenton, Brodie, Jurgenson, Hadl, Stabler, to name some? Even Archie Manning slung it.
How about the ‘80s and ‘90s with Marino, Fouts, Moon, Esiason, Elway and Montana to name some as well? They didn’t sling it either? Maybe they didn’t throw it 40-50 times a game as a rule, but they threw it plenty.
Different era? As though they wouldn’t have drafted Brown, Sanders, Payton, Dickerson et al very high TODAY as well..
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You should though since you love to conjure up 2018 and 2019 at every turn.
I don't even care anymore about those years. MAybe they are excuses and maybe DG walked into Mara's office and demanded that ELi be given another year or so (nope) and maybe he insisted on hiring Shurmur despite some better options available (nope nope) --fine, we can agree that DG didn't have a good 2018 campaign, I won't excuse that even if we all know there were, but fine, roast him for 2018.
Can we just look to 21 and see how this thing looks with another year of Judge in the fold and more cohesiveness with the coaching? You act like teams ALWAYS dramatically improve in 2 years time and if not, cut bait. It's not always that simple. Look forward. We might be on to something here. If not, trust me, you're going to get your pound of flesh. I don't think we want that to happen. I know I don't.
No, that's not how any relationship works. You can't just hand wave away the past. If I walked up to you 3 days in a row and punched you in the face, are you going to offer to shake my hand on the 4th day?
DG, and Mara too, deserve no benefit of the doubt for the way this team has been run since DG was hired (and for Mara since TC was fired). Why should we believe that things are just going to magically get better? Certainly JJ is a step in the right direction, but until proven otherwise DGs Giants are a bad team and we should continue to expect them to be bad until he's fired.
As far as cutting bait goes. Kiper was in TMKS today talking about the Darnold trade and he said "I grew up on the era when you used to develop a quarterback. Now of you're not lights out by year three, especially year four, you're getting kicked to the curb."
This can be extrapolated to HCs, GMs, and even other sports. It's produce or get out and give the next guy a try. Patience doesn't exist in pro team sports any more.
‘60s and ‘70s where they had Namath, Unitas, Tarkenton, Brodie, Jurgenson, Hadl, Stabler, to name some? Even Archie Manning slung it.
How about the ‘80s and ‘90s with Marino, Fouts, Moon, Esiason, Elway and Montana to name some as well? They didn’t sling it either? Maybe they didn’t throw it 40-50 times a game as a rule, but they threw it plenty.
Different era? As though they wouldn’t have drafted Brown, Sanders, Payton, Dickerson et al very high TODAY as well..
Oops, forgot Tittle in the ‘60s
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In comment 15211654 Jimmy Googs said:
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You should though since you love to conjure up 2018 and 2019 at every turn.
I don't even care anymore about those years. MAybe they are excuses and maybe DG walked into Mara's office and demanded that ELi be given another year or so (nope) and maybe he insisted on hiring Shurmur despite some better options available (nope nope) --fine, we can agree that DG didn't have a good 2018 campaign, I won't excuse that even if we all know there were, but fine, roast him for 2018.
Can we just look to 21 and see how this thing looks with another year of Judge in the fold and more cohesiveness with the coaching? You act like teams ALWAYS dramatically improve in 2 years time and if not, cut bait. It's not always that simple. Look forward. We might be on to something here. If not, trust me, you're going to get your pound of flesh. I don't think we want that to happen. I know I don't.
No, that's not how any relationship works. You can't just hand wave away the past. If I walked up to you 3 days in a row and punched you in the face, are you going to offer to shake my hand on the 4th day?
DG, and Mara too, deserve no benefit of the doubt for the way this team has been run since DG was hired (and for Mara since TC was fired). Why should we believe that things are just going to magically get better? Certainly JJ is a step in the right direction, but until proven otherwise DGs Giants are a bad team and we should continue to expect them to be bad until he's fired.
As far as cutting bait goes. Kiper was in TMKS today talking about the Darnold trade and he said "I grew up on the era when you used to develop a quarterback. Now of you're not lights out by year three, especially year four, you're getting kicked to the curb."
This can be extrapolated to HCs, GMs, and even other sports. It's produce or get out and give the next guy a try. Patience doesn't exist in pro team sports any more.
As far as cutting bait goes. Kiper was in TMKS today talking about the Darnold trade and he said "I grew up on the era when you used to develop a quarterback. Now of you're not lights out by year three, especially year four, you're getting kicked to the curb."
This can be extrapolated to HCs, GMs, and even other sports. It's produce or get out and give the next guy a try. Patience doesn't exist in pro team sports any more.
Except after 25 games, many want to do exactly that with Jones..
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In comment 15211552 djm said:
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nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
it's almost as if the salary cap, positional value, and any knowledge of how teams win in the modern NFL are completely foreign to you.
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In comment 15211659 djm said:
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In comment 15211654 Jimmy Googs said:
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.
You should though since you love to conjure up 2018 and 2019 at every turn.
I don't even care anymore about those years. MAybe they are excuses and maybe DG walked into Mara's office and demanded that ELi be given another year or so (nope) and maybe he insisted on hiring Shurmur despite some better options available (nope nope) --fine, we can agree that DG didn't have a good 2018 campaign, I won't excuse that even if we all know there were, but fine, roast him for 2018.
Can we just look to 21 and see how this thing looks with another year of Judge in the fold and more cohesiveness with the coaching? You act like teams ALWAYS dramatically improve in 2 years time and if not, cut bait. It's not always that simple. Look forward. We might be on to something here. If not, trust me, you're going to get your pound of flesh. I don't think we want that to happen. I know I don't.
No, that's not how any relationship works. You can't just hand wave away the past. If I walked up to you 3 days in a row and punched you in the face, are you going to offer to shake my hand on the 4th day?
DG, and Mara too, deserve no benefit of the doubt for the way this team has been run since DG was hired (and for Mara since TC was fired). Why should we believe that things are just going to magically get better? Certainly JJ is a step in the right direction, but until proven otherwise DGs Giants are a bad team and we should continue to expect them to be bad until he's fired.
As far as cutting bait goes. Kiper was in TMKS today talking about the Darnold trade and he said "I grew up on the era when you used to develop a quarterback. Now of you're not lights out by year three, especially year four, you're getting kicked to the curb."
This can be extrapolated to HCs, GMs, and even other sports. It's produce or get out and give the next guy a try. Patience doesn't exist in pro team sports any more.
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As far as cutting bait goes. Kiper was in TMKS today talking about the Darnold trade and he said "I grew up on the era when you used to develop a quarterback. Now of you're not lights out by year three, especially year four, you're getting kicked to the curb."
This can be extrapolated to HCs, GMs, and even other sports. It's produce or get out and give the next guy a try. Patience doesn't exist in pro team sports any more.
Except after 25 games, many want to do exactly that with Jones..
And if the Giants were picking #2 it absolutely should have been considered
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In comment 15211561 Victor in CT said:
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In comment 15211552 djm said:
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nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
it's almost as if the salary cap, positional value, and any knowledge of how teams win in the modern NFL are completely foreign to you.
Yes, foreign to me..Lawd
‘60s and ‘70s where they had Namath, Unitas, Tarkenton, Brodie, Jurgenson, Hadl, Stabler, to name some? Even Archie Manning slung it.
How about the ‘80s and ‘90s with Marino, Fouts, Moon, Esiason, Elway and Montana to name some as well? They didn’t sling it either? Maybe they didn’t throw it 40-50 times a game as a rule, but they threw it plenty.
Different era? As though they wouldn’t have drafted Brown, Sanders, Payton, Dickerson et al very high TODAY as well..
In today's game? I wouldn't draft any of those RBs in the first round - unless I was a perennial contender (like the Pats, Chiefs, GB, etc) and happened to have an incredibly high pick. I have to be consistent.
Do you really want to compare pass attempts of the '60s, '70s. '80's etc to today's games. I don't even have to look it up and feel pretty damn good that those eras had more rushing attempts than passing attempts for winning teams. That's how teams won back then...
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bygone eras, how far back do you want to go?
‘60s and ‘70s where they had Namath, Unitas, Tarkenton, Brodie, Jurgenson, Hadl, Stabler, to name some? Even Archie Manning slung it.
How about the ‘80s and ‘90s with Marino, Fouts, Moon, Esiason, Elway and Montana to name some as well? They didn’t sling it either? Maybe they didn’t throw it 40-50 times a game as a rule, but they threw it plenty.
Different era? As though they wouldn’t have drafted Brown, Sanders, Payton, Dickerson et al very high TODAY as well..
In today's game? I wouldn't draft any of those RBs in the first round - unless I was a perennial contender (like the Pats, Chiefs, GB, etc) and happened to have an incredibly high pick. I have to be consistent.
Do you really want to compare pass attempts of the '60s, '70s. '80's etc to today's games. I don't even have to look it up and feel pretty damn good that those eras had more rushing attempts than passing attempts for winning teams. That's how teams won back then...
Look up points production, not rushing vs passing attempts..The ground game was certainly vital, but the passing games from the aforementioned were the difference-makers..
If your contention is that you wouldn’t draft a Jim Brown, Barkley and the OTHERS I mentioned in the first round, then we have nothing more to talk about towards this end
If your contention is that you wouldn’t draft a Jim Brown, Barkley and the OTHERS I mentioned in the first round, then we have nothing more to talk about towards this end
I wouldn't. But it's a silly argument because it wouldn't be based on what we know now about those names (their NFL production) but how they produced in college.
I'm only 38, so I haven't experienced the lows and highs of many fans. Maybe I don't have perspective or the team doesn't have the good will banked with me like some.
What I see is a three year run with 33 loses under current management. Going back to George Young, the most loses in three years under any GM.
It's not been kind of bad, it's like a once in 40 year storm bad. It's a credibility damaging run, that followed up a credibility damaging run (Rees + McAdoo).
Personally for me, to get me back in the column where I expect the decisions the Giants make to work, it's going to take more than a 6 win season.
Tell me I'm being illogically to be nervous about:
- Daniel Jones leading the in fumbles in consecutive years, coming off a 14 game 11 TD season
- Saquon Barkley coming off a torn ACL, and second consecutive season where injury has dramatically limited his productivity
- An offensive line as of today relying on an UDFA, 5th rounder, 3rd rounder, and a potentially the massively disappointing Nate Solder
If management was getting more things right than wrong, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. But it's not been that way.
It's like fans using nice sounding threats like "I'm going to hold them accountable". Cool. How?
There are a few posters who have spent almost every day for the past three years complaining about the GM. And he still sits there. He still makes moves. At some point, you'd think people would glance at a mirror and see that all the gnashing of teeth has given are headaches and ground enamel.
When things are out of your control, a benefit of doubt or accountability really doesn't mean anything at all.
It's like fans using nice sounding threats like "I'm going to hold them accountable". Cool. How?
There are a few posters who have spent almost every day for the past three years complaining about the GM. And he still sits there. He still makes moves. At some point, you'd think people would glance at a mirror and see that all the gnashing of teeth has given are headaches and ground enamel.
When things are out of your control, a benefit of doubt or accountability really doesn't mean anything at all.
I don't think there is anything wrong with rooting for a team and at the same time being critical if I think they are pursuing illogical or non-rational moves or strategy.
I'm only 38, so I haven't experienced the lows and highs of many fans. Maybe I don't have perspective or the team doesn't have the good will banked with me like some.
What I see is a three year run with 33 loses under current management. Going back to George Young, the most loses in three years under any GM.
It's not been kind of bad, it's like a once in 40 year storm bad. It's a credibility damaging run, that followed up a credibility damaging run (Rees + McAdoo).
Personally for me, to get me back in the column where I expect the decisions the Giants make to work, it's going to take more than a 6 win season.
Tell me I'm being illogically to be nervous about:
- Daniel Jones leading the in fumbles in consecutive years, coming off a 14 game 11 TD season
- Saquon Barkley coming off a torn ACL, and second consecutive season where injury has dramatically limited his productivity
- An offensive line as of today relying on an UDFA, 5th rounder, 3rd rounder, and a potentially the massively disappointing Nate Solder
If management was getting more things right than wrong, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. But it's not been that way.
It’s not really that. Your narrative about fumbles really applied to his first year. He was much improved in year two. Were his INTs because of Engram’s tips, bad throws? Probably both, but INTs are happening at a pretty good rate around the league. But yeah, he needs to continue to clean things up and not become a headcase over his TOs..That part is on him.
I also felt he was beginning to get comfortable in Garrett’s O (as JG was reacclimating to PC himself) and he was moving the chains quite well until he got hurt. After that, they could tee off on him given that he really couldn’t move all that well..He did surprise me in how well he played in the season finale, given that his mobility was still rather shot..If he was healthy? No wuestion in my mind we win the division with a .500 record. Just an opinion and unprovable. We shall see moving forward.
It’s not that we’re “homers” as posters like to label us; more like, “okay, year 2 under Judge and Garrett, DJ should be more comfortable with his new weapons, a healthy Barkley (fingers crossed),etc.”
Again, I didn’t want DG here and he’s made some headscratching moves at times, but my fanhood is focused on Judge’s team, how well he apparently works with DG and how hard his players have played for him and that DJ deserves some big time slack after only 25 games.
We’re not better fans by any stretch. We’re perhaps more patient, especially since there’s a new sheriff in town and the players seem to have bought into him. Also TBD..
So I will let the naysayers dwell on the 15-33 record. I will dwell on 6-10, not because it’s a good record, that’s not the case. It’s the 0-5 and 1-7 ending with 5-3, that I’m hanging my positive energy on. Years ‘18 and ‘19 mean nothing to me as it’s not germain to our current team, imv. DG I felt had a good draft during JG’s first year (but time will tell) and on paper I like what he’s done in FA..
I am responding in length to you because I KNOW you will hear what I’m saying, whether you agree with me or not..
It's like fans using nice sounding threats like "I'm going to hold them accountable". Cool. How?
There are a few posters who have spent almost every day for the past three years complaining about the GM. And he still sits there. He still makes moves. At some point, you'd think people would glance at a mirror and see that all the gnashing of teeth has given are headaches and ground enamel.
When things are out of your control, a benefit of doubt or accountability really doesn't mean anything at all.
I vote with my dollars — since 2017 onward I’ve attended fewer than half the games I previously did. I’ve purposefully not spent a dollar on anything team related. The team not being very good and not having the brand popularity in the metro area, was also a big factor in me voting at my former company to not renew agreements or pursue new advertising at the stadium. Those dollars went to some kick ass ads at Yankee Stadium.
There are also posters who have spent the last 3 years defending the moves management has made. And yet the team keeps losing.
If real world world outcomes are the driving factor of what we are and are not allowed to bitch about as fans, then Eric should just close up and retire the site, no?
2. Many great or very good OL’s are built with low picks The Giants very good OL of 2004-10 had a 5th, UDFA, UDFA, 2nd,, 3rd from left to right. Pats are the same and they often let many go. It is the position where you don’t need great measureables. You also can help your cap in this position group.
3. Giants have had a bad run. Dave has missed. People denying this are off base imo. It is really hard to win in the NFL though . Dave is correct with his mantra. Execution has been slow. They are closer than many think imo but Jones will have to take a major step. Overall the Giants have been very good at going the distance the last 35 years in the most competitive division. 10 Super Bowls. It could be a lot worse.
Did you research any of this? Interceptions are down leaguewide each of the last two years. Jones led the league in fumbles (11) in 2020, as he did in 2019 (18)...consider that he didn't play a full 16 games either year. Saying he improved with the fumbles is disingenuous; he was still worst in the league.
The other day someone suggested Jones didn't fumble much in the second half of the season - not true. Where are the self-appointed defenders of the faith to point out these errors? People get pissed at me for being critical; but you won't find me just making stats up.
Also, this may be the third year in a row we've had to hear about second half momentum carrying over into the following season. It never materializes. Besides, I don't know how finishing the season 1-3 in four must-win games is a feather in the cap, but what do I know?
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I once wondered what '64-'81 would have like on BBI. That would have been a dark, dark place. And I guarantee that plane flies over Giants Stadium a helluva lot earlier than after the fiasco vs. the Eagles in '78.
Dark because there was no internet?
Bill L, if there was an Internet back then...Haha.
I'm only 38, so I haven't experienced the lows and highs of many fans. Maybe I don't have perspective or the team doesn't have the good will banked with me like some.
What I see is a three year run with 33 loses under current management. Going back to George Young, the most loses in three years under any GM.
It's not been kind of bad, it's like a once in 40 year storm bad. It's a credibility damaging run, that followed up a credibility damaging run (Rees + McAdoo).
Personally for me, to get me back in the column where I expect the decisions the Giants make to work, it's going to take more than a 6 win season.
Tell me I'm being illogically to be nervous about:
- Daniel Jones leading the in fumbles in consecutive years, coming off a 14 game 11 TD season
- Saquon Barkley coming off a torn ACL, and second consecutive season where injury has dramatically limited his productivity
- An offensive line as of today relying on an UDFA, 5th rounder, 3rd rounder, and a potentially the massively disappointing Nate Solder
If management was getting more things right than wrong, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. But it's not been that way.
Minus the first sentence, this post is great, and I agree with pretty much all of it.
I'm 45, I feel you. I guess let me say, that between 38 and 45, A LOT can change. Football/life. Different perspectives. What's interesting is that BBI is a melting pot of all of these perspectives.
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In comment 15211567 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 15211561 Victor in CT said:
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In comment 15211552 djm said:
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nor do I see the point in conjuring up Barkley as if picking him is an indictable offense. The player's talent is beyond reproach but some of you think picking him at 2 means the GM is lost. BArkley likely will be making a pro bowl again while Darnold will be a backup, at best, but people here STILL would take Darnold. Great.
well put on both posts
Just a quick Barkley note: Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Barry Sanders and the Killer to name a few were ALL TAKEN without a star QB in tow..That’s what you do when a HOF talent is available to you..
Uh, for the memory challenged (may I suggest Prevagen as a solution), those eras for those RBs were COMPLETELY different to today's brand of football. Those eras were focused on the running game as the primary means to move the football.
JFC...send me your address and I will send you Football for Dummies, BBI edition.
Firstly, you have my address. Secondly, I’ve seen the book and the beautiful dedication in your honor..
This was an old school BBI response right here. Strong.
I think JJ is the real deal.
It's like fans using nice sounding threats like "I'm going to hold them accountable". Cool. How?
There are a few posters who have spent almost every day for the past three years complaining about the GM. And he still sits there. He still makes moves. At some point, you'd think people would glance at a mirror and see that all the gnashing of teeth has given are headaches and ground enamel.
When things are out of your control, a benefit of doubt or accountability really doesn't mean anything at all.
And you likely have spent almost every day for the past three years complaining about posters who complain about the GM.
At some point you’d think you would glance at a mirror too...
Says the man who is critical of everyone on this site he disagrees with, with no ability to change their thinking.
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But I'm hopeful they got it right. 3rd times a charm :)
I think JJ is the real deal.
And where I agree with Terps is that he IS the most important piece.
Where I deviate from some here is I am skeptical as to how much say he has over Jones and Barkley being centerpiece players. He is not connected to their acquisition, and in one year together Jones was bad and Barkley was hurt. If Judge wants to explore moving on from either, I wonder if they would. No way of knowing for sure, I suppose.
Where I deviate from some here is I am skeptical as to how much say he has over Jones and Barkley being centerpiece players. He is not connected to their acquisition, and in one year together Jones was bad and Barkley was hurt. If Judge wants to explore moving on from either, I wonder if they would. No way of knowing for sure, I suppose.
And as the wins start coming, so will that power. I already think the ownership, the fan base, and front office might be buying in. And let's not forget how extraordinary the circumstances are for a 39 year old to to have his first NFL head coaching gig in the middle of a pandemic.
Where I deviate from some here is I am skeptical as to how much say he has over Jones and Barkley being centerpiece players. He is not connected to their acquisition, and in one year together Jones was bad and Barkley was hurt. If Judge wants to explore moving on from either, I wonder if they would. No way of knowing for sure, I suppose.
Where I deviate from some here is I am skeptical as to how much say he has over Jones and Barkley being centerpiece players. He is not connected to their acquisition, and in one year together Jones was bad and Barkley was hurt. If Judge wants to explore moving on from either, I wonder if they would. No way of knowing for sure, I suppose.
Total guess, but I think JJ has more sway than Gettleman going forward. I think Mara wants him around for awhile & Mara is definitely sensitive to fan opinion & most fans have confidence in Judge than Gettleman, who is up there in age too.
I won’t be surprised if Jones improves a lot next year, and I won’t be surprised if Barkley rounds into shape as the season progresses. But my eyes are wide open about the big hill each has to climb.
I have 100% faith in Judge. Everything about the guy says smart, prepared, thoughtful — and he has great pedigree.
Where I’m skeptical is if the Giants are faced with an unpopular and difficult decision with Jones or Barkley. Will affection, hope, and loyalty be a big factor in their next contract, if health and performance fall short?
I won’t be surprised if Jones improves a lot next year, and I won’t be surprised if Barkley rounds into shape as the season progresses. But my eyes are wide open about the big hill each has to climb.
I have 100% faith in Judge. Everything about the guy says smart, prepared, thoughtful — and he has great pedigree.
Where I’m skeptical is if the Giants are faced with an unpopular and difficult decision with Jones or Barkley. Will affection, hope, and loyalty be a big factor in their next contract, if health and performance fall short?
You may have provided your own answer. If he has great Pedigree (BB and Saban), then he will value “fact” over loyalty and cut ties when necessary, imv
Love the pick or hate it, picking him is not what dumb GMs do no matter how much you can scream otherwise. The guy's a HOF talent. Enough already.
Wasn't Tomlinson a 2nd round pick? And Fournette and Gurley are already on their second teams? Didn't Faulk really cement his legacy with his second team? So Zeke is the sample group of ONE that aligns with your position?
I suspect you may have contradicted the point you were trying to make.
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I’m more bullish on the ceiling for Jones and Barkley than some. But I’m very afraid of the floor.
I won’t be surprised if Jones improves a lot next year, and I won’t be surprised if Barkley rounds into shape as the season progresses. But my eyes are wide open about the big hill each has to climb.
I have 100% faith in Judge. Everything about the guy says smart, prepared, thoughtful — and he has great pedigree.
Where I’m skeptical is if the Giants are faced with an unpopular and difficult decision with Jones or Barkley. Will affection, hope, and loyalty be a big factor in their next contract, if health and performance fall short?
You may have provided your own answer. If he has great Pedigree (BB and Saban), then he will value “fact” over loyalty and cut ties when necessary, imv
Unless Tomlinson is the case study to inform that shift, we haven't seen it yet.
McAdoo wound up a bumbling fool, but he was right to at least ask to see if the offense would be better/worse/same with another QB. His failure was choosing Geno to be that QB - that he chose the established-but-never-gonna-be-the-future QB as his horse instead of Webb, who many had hopes for, made it clearly a referendum on Eli. And I do think that if we're being fair and leaving sentiment at the door, Eli was up for a referendum at that point, but it was a poor political decision by McAdoo. And these things tend to be political decisions every bit as much as they are football decisions.
So what happens? There is a fan revolt, at least on WFAN, and the team is given back to Eli with McAdoo (and Reese) sent packing. No one messes with the GOAT in East Rutherford, that much is clear.
But everything that followed, with McAdoo and Reese already fired, reeked of loyalty to #10. And I'm not trying to make the case here that such loyalty was unwarranted, but just want to point out that Mara had a reflex reaction to fan outrage that caused him to change course. He had admitted that he approved McAdoo's proposal, but then fired him and Reese a week later when nothing about that dreadful season had changed other than the fan reaction to Eli's benching.
It's a fair question, IMO, to wonder if Mara is capable of ignoring fan sentiment when it comes time to making cold football decisions. Tomlinson may have worn the C patch, but he was never a fan favorite that sold tickets and jerseys and the like. That they let him walk is interesting and perhaps insightful, but I don't think it gives us any sense of how they'll treat Barkley and Jones. The star and the QB exist on a different plane than the blue collar DT, even if the latter was also a team captain. It's just not the same.
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that's just it. If a GM has such a conviction on a player that he's all but certain that player is a star in the making, he should most definitely take him barring only a few exceptions. You want to disagree with that line of thinking that's fine, but its a hell of a lot easier to do so sitting on your couch. And all these "insiders" or former GMs saying they would never take a RB at 2-3-4 can go fuck off for all I care. Fournette went 4th. Zeke went 4th. Gurley went pretty high. Those guys weren't picked by bad GMs. MArshall Faulk was a great pick. So was LDT. And if Barkley wasn't hurt last year he'd be the best offensive player on the 2020 NFC east champions.
Love the pick or hate it, picking him is not what dumb GMs do no matter how much you can scream otherwise. The guy's a HOF talent. Enough already.
Wasn't Tomlinson a 2nd round pick? And Fournette and Gurley are already on their second teams? Didn't Faulk really cement his legacy with his second team? So Zeke is the sample group of ONE that aligns with your position?
I suspect you may have contradicted the point you were trying to make.
Just want to correct myself - Tomlinson was most definitely NOT a 2nd round pick. I was confused because Brees was their 2nd round pick in that same draft, and I was thinking about them having had a crazy good draft that year. Talk about a fucking haul - Tomlinson and Brees in the 1st and 2nd rounds and not a single ring to show for it.
Are you a Bobby Frost fan?
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I think that there's some Robert Frost poem about that.
Are you a Bobby Frost fan?
I'm more 18-19th century English guy but if I saw Bobby on the road I wold pick him up (unless I was on the wrong road).
What about the part where he gets flustered in the pocket.
Or where he bones throws to open receivers.
Or where he makes stupid decisions.
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Jones throws a GREAT deep ball. A) he fumbles B) OL can’t block C) WR can never get open. If this changes we win a lot of games. Period.
What about the part where he gets flustered in the pocket.
Or where he bones throws to open receivers.
Or where he makes stupid decisions.
See above.
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Jones throws a GREAT deep ball. A) he fumbles B) OL can’t block C) WR can never get open. If this changes we win a lot of games. Period.
What about the part where he gets flustered in the pocket.
Or where he bones throws to open receivers.
Or where he makes stupid decisions.
You forgot not seeing wide open receivers
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Jones throws a GREAT deep ball. A) he fumbles B) OL can’t block C) WR can never get open. If this changes we win a lot of games. Period.
What about the part where he gets flustered in the pocket.
Or where he bones throws to open receivers.
Or where he makes stupid decisions.
Flustered in the pocket? This is where I can't take you seriously. The guy is brave to a FAULT in the pocket, that's where a lot of his first year fumbles came from.
We get it Producer, you hate Daniel Jones. Are you going to keep posting it over, and over, and over, and ov... on every single thread, beating every single thread about it into the ground? I mean HOLY SHIT already with you guys and your irrational Daniel Jones hatred.