Trying to be as objective as possible here ... I see 3 positions still needing significant upgrade going into the draft. 3. RB - History shows you can sign a decent vet later in the year, but I think we’ll see at least 1 taken in the later rounds. 2. RG - Neither Hernandez nor Lemieux have played on the right side so this is Zach Fulton’s position for now ... Day 2 pick.
1. I think the top need is an inside backer to play alongside Martinez and get upfield on the blitz ... Tae Crowder was a nice find and Ragland a good pickup, but this is where we need the most help. Micah Parsons would be ideal but if the baggage is real, is there another like him? Maybe Zavel Collins after a trade down. Any others ?
They're not consistently good at contain and setting the edge, or creating pass rush pressure off the edge, or forcing the run inside to support, or managing the damage after the ball hits the consistently collapsed edges of the defense. Way too many big plays, blown run fits, and allowing the offense to just roll down the field and score. If they can't improve these things, they'll continue to give up too many plays, points, leads, etc.
OL is the next big need set.
The BIGGEST issue, and lack of talent, and production is, and has been the HUMPTY Dumpty Oline, and if not improved the offense will not improve, and if the offense doesn’t improve the team won’t improve no matter how many additions they make to the other positions either on offense, or on defense.
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is the lack of talent and production from the Edge positions.
They're not consistently good at contain and setting the edge, or creating pass rush pressure off the edge, or forcing the run inside to support, or managing the damage after the ball hits the consistently collapsed edges of the defense. Way too many big plays, blown run fits, and allowing the offense to just roll down the field and score. If they can't improve these things, they'll continue to give up too many plays, points, leads, etc.
OL is the next big need set.
The BIGGEST issue, and lack of talent, and production is, and has been the HUMPTY Dumpty Oline, and if not improved the offense will not improve, and if the offense doesn’t improve the team won’t improve no matter how many additions they make to the other positions either on offense, or on defense.
But from 2019>2020, our offense got worse, same receivers, lost saquon, Jones was hit more often... but our team was better... Look no further than the Defense
Keep it going... Tyron Smith 36 3/8, Trent Williams 34.25, Ronnie Stanley 35 5/8, Orlando Brown JR 35”, Trent Brown 36”, Andrew Whitworth 35”. You tell me which group of tackles you’d rather have.
And that’s really my point, if you draft Slater and have him start at RT, you just killed the higher upside prospect in Peart.
On the contrary, Slater could be a top 5 guard in football, but does that have more value than a potential top 5 LB in Parsons or a top 5 receiver in Devonta Smith? IMO, no, I’m more comfortable with Shane Lemiux starting than I am with Tae Davis, and we’re likely going to disagree on that point
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That arm length is everything for an Offebsive lineman has got to stop. Bakhtiari has 34 inch arms, Mitchell Schwartz 33.5 inches, La'el Collins 33.25, Ramczyk 33.75, Taylor Lewan 33.75, Braden Smith 32.25 and the list goes on and on.
Keep it going... Tyron Smith 36 3/8, Trent Williams 34.25, Ronnie Stanley 35 5/8, Orlando Brown JR 35”, Trent Brown 36”, Andrew Whitworth 35”. You tell me which group of tackles you’d rather have.
I would take Bakhtari over all of the players you listed but that's not the point.Arm length is not the end all be all factor on whether the player is going to be good or not. 35+ is considered "long" by NFL standards.. yet you listed Trent Williams which who has about average arm length.
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That arm length is everything for an Offebsive lineman has got to stop. Bakhtiari has 34 inch arms, Mitchell Schwartz 33.5 inches, La'el Collins 33.25, Ramczyk 33.75, Taylor Lewan 33.75, Braden Smith 32.25 and the list goes on and on.
Keep it going... Tyron Smith 36 3/8, Trent Williams 34.25, Ronnie Stanley 35 5/8, Orlando Brown JR 35”, Trent Brown 36”, Andrew Whitworth 35”. You tell me which group of tackles you’d rather have.
You're kidding, right?
Bakhtiari is the best T in football. Schwartz and Ramczyk are great, too.
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In comment 15211829 TommyWiseau said:
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That arm length is everything for an Offebsive lineman has got to stop. Bakhtiari has 34 inch arms, Mitchell Schwartz 33.5 inches, La'el Collins 33.25, Ramczyk 33.75, Taylor Lewan 33.75, Braden Smith 32.25 and the list goes on and on.
Keep it going... Tyron Smith 36 3/8, Trent Williams 34.25, Ronnie Stanley 35 5/8, Orlando Brown JR 35”, Trent Brown 36”, Andrew Whitworth 35”. You tell me which group of tackles you’d rather have.
You're kidding, right?
Bakhtiari is the best T in football. Schwartz and Ramczyk are great, too.
Bakhtiari is the best OT in football? Who knew.
Look the point is longer arms are better and on that list only one was under 33". There are exceptions to every rule but I agree the arm thing is a bit overplayed. Yet today Bobby Skinner did bring it up about Slater needing to overcome it.
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In comment 15211829 TommyWiseau said:
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That arm length is everything for an Offebsive lineman has got to stop. Bakhtiari has 34 inch arms, Mitchell Schwartz 33.5 inches, La'el Collins 33.25, Ramczyk 33.75, Taylor Lewan 33.75, Braden Smith 32.25 and the list goes on and on.
Keep it going... Tyron Smith 36 3/8, Trent Williams 34.25, Ronnie Stanley 35 5/8, Orlando Brown JR 35”, Trent Brown 36”, Andrew Whitworth 35”. You tell me which group of tackles you’d rather have.
You're kidding, right?
Bakhtiari is the best T in football. Schwartz and Ramczyk are great, too.
My argument isn’t that smaller arm length prospects don’t make it, my argument is why draft Tristan Wirfs to play over a potential Taylor Moton, pay him more money, use more resources, and then have Oshane Ximines as your starting edge rusher when the season begins.
Does positional value matter or not
Bakhtiari is the best OT in football? Who knew.
Look the point is longer arms are better and on that list only one was under 33". There are exceptions to every rule but I agree the arm thing is a bit overplayed. Yet today Bobby Skinner did bring it up about Slater needing to overcome it.
Arm length for tackles is getting as insignificant as QB height.
Name Arm Length
Ryan Clady 36 3/4
Tyron Smith 36 3/8
Russell Okung 36
Jake Long 35 7/8
D'Brickashaw Ferguson 35 1/2
Andrew Whitworth 35
Jermon Bushrod 34 1/2
Trent Williams 34 1/4
Matt Kalil 34 1/4
Michael Roos 33 5/8
Brandon Albert 33 5/8
Joe Staley 33 1/2
Duane Brown 33 1/4
Sebastion Vollmer 33 1/4
Jordan Gross 33 1/4
Matt Light 33 1/4
Jason Peters 33 1/8
Chad Clifton 33
Tyson Clabo 33
Donald Penn 33
Joe Thomas 32 1/2
According to Arrowhead Pride's Kent Swanson, the average arm length of a tackle for head coach Andy Reid is 34 1/4 inches. When comparing that to the top 20 tackles in this year's draft, only six meet or exceed that measurement.
Arm length won't make or break a prospect, though, Mora said. While it's certainly an important trait, there are other qualities for offensive linemen that should be taken into consideration.
"It's not the most important thing," [Jim Mora Jr] said. "If you said I could have a guy with 35-inch arms but he had average feet and average lateral quickness then I would say, 'Well, I don't know, what's my alternative?' Then say, 'OK, you can have a guy with 33 1/2-inch arms with great lateral quickness.' I'd take the 33 1/2-inch arms with lateral quickness every single day. But the thing about the NFL is we're always talking fractions of inches in a difference between a play being made and a play not being made."
Former NFL Scout David Turner On Giants FA/Draft - ( New Window )
RB as Barks is a huge question mark and a player that the entire team is counting on to be spectacular. There’s much that can go wrong at RB1 and even solid roll playing by the other RBs won’t be much of a factor to overall success.
QB. The Giants need Jones to be the man. He’s the 6 overall pick and he plays the most important position in the game. It Barkley can live up to his absurd potential that will take a lot pressure off of Jones. But let’s be clear here, Jones wasn’t drafted to be a game manager and he shouldn’t be playing second fiddle to a RB. Jones needs to do his part and be a playmaker and a star and if he’s not there’s obviously no hope for any other facet of the team.
+1/2. I’d say one but I think WR is thinner.
Like I always ask the teacher before the test, “can’t you just tell us the answer?”
Either way, I’m not going to do that
If there really is no correlation to arm length and OT success, then why not trade back, draft Vera-Tucker mid first round and Jabril Cox in the third... all with the same pick we would just be taking Slater with. Two birds, one stone. After all, Vera-Tucker had the best 2020 college film out of all the OT prospects.
I always believed that about continuity. I still do. But Judge doesn’t seem to with his rotating OL approach.
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Sign me up at 11.
Why are people not talking about him as the best edge guy in the draft? He seems bigger and more athletic than Olujari. He reminds me of Khalil Mack.
He’s been talked of as more of an ILB type.
Yeah, I didn’t phrase it well but what I meant is, he seems like the most athletic defensive player in the draft. I get why a small school had him in the middle, he could impact the game the most there. But if he’s gone to a big school and played edge, I think he’d be the top rusher in the draft, I think he can do it all.
Sign me up for the Khalil Mack 2.0
I do agree their is a spot on the outside to replace Zo Carter, Fackrell, Ximines... group. That is edge tho.
I can see where people are concerned about the ERs but we were middle of the pack in sacks last year and pressure can be schemed especially with the improved secondary. While its a big need I believe we can get away with what we have if we cant find help in the draft.
+1
Eliminating QB it's OL, OL, OL.
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He said that continuity on an offensive line is a big deal, and that turnover and shaky play at LT as well as center his first few years hasn’t helped him. Also, for Giants trying out a new oline in 2020, those were the players that needed to be on the field together getting reps as a unit more than anyone, due to the new faces and with covid restrictions severely limiting that time it certainly didnt help them. Also made the point about Giants plan going in was to be a run first team behind Barkley and the makeup of the offense was significantly altered with his injury. That’s the gist of it, sure I might have missed something.
I always believed that about continuity. I still do. But Judge doesn’t seem to with his rotating OL approach.
Hmm, not sure Bill. I think really he had to see what he had. He probably gave up some continuity to get his young guys feet wet and see if they were players they could rely on moving forward. I am going to guess once the starters are fully established that will probably not happen as much. But who knows.
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is the lack of talent and production from the Edge positions.
They're not consistently good at contain and setting the edge, or creating pass rush pressure off the edge, or forcing the run inside to support, or managing the damage after the ball hits the consistently collapsed edges of the defense. Way too many big plays, blown run fits, and allowing the offense to just roll down the field and score. If they can't improve these things, they'll continue to give up too many plays, points, leads, etc.
OL is the next big need set.
The BIGGEST issue, and lack of talent, and production is, and has been the HUMPTY Dumpty Oline, and if not improved the offense will not improve, and if the offense doesn’t improve the team won’t improve no matter how many additions they make to the other positions either on offense, or on defense.
This sounds awfully familiar, what was your prior handle?
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is the lack of talent and production from the Edge positions.
They're not consistently good at contain and setting the edge, or creating pass rush pressure off the edge, or forcing the run inside to support, or managing the damage after the ball hits the consistently collapsed edges of the defense. Way too many big plays, blown run fits, and allowing the offense to just roll down the field and score. If they can't improve these things, they'll continue to give up too many plays, points, leads, etc.
OL is the next big need set.
I agree with what you say about the edge. If that is truly the case(it is) would Kwity Paye be the guy to draft? Stout against run and untapped pass rush ability...
Ideally Phillips would be, but I'd want no part of that concussion possibility at #11 (42, yes).
The problem with Paye is I don't see untapped potential for a 3-4 OLB. He looks more like a 4-3 DE to me, don't love him at #11 especially.
With the playoffs on the line the Giants gave you
78
74
54
125 yard rushing performances.
Daniel Jones was sacked 14 times in his final 3 games of the year.
The offense scored 7,6, 13, and 23 points in the final 4 games.
To me the weak spot is still the OL. Guard and RT are unproven and won't be hidden like the edge guys. If there's one positional player we should all be hoping emerges out of seemingly nowhere, it's Peart at RT.
We had 40 sacks last year. If the OL rushed for 2000 yards and allowed below sack #s we would be singing a different tune, but that's not what happened in 2020.
Not simply the pass rush but as has been pointed out, a capable Force player. The Giants are loaded with the ability to spill but the edges are soft. Be it Zone Read miscues, bootlegs, the occasional Jet and even taking on a pulling G or TE/FB in the power game, the edges have been poor.
There is also no one that the opposing OL is worried about on passing downs.
We truly do not know what the Giants have on the OLine. I'm content to see what JJ sees in them and look forward to improvement in 2021.
Not simply the pass rush but as has been pointed out, a capable Force player. The Giants are loaded with the ability to spill but the edges are soft. Be it Zone Read miscues, bootlegs, the occasional Jet and even taking on a pulling G or TE/FB in the power game, the edges have been poor.
There is also no one that the opposing OL is worried about on passing downs.
We truly do not know what the Giants have on the OLine. I'm content to see what JJ sees in them and look forward to improvement in 2021.
You know you’re in trouble when you have to put David Mayo as a SAM linebacker. That Ravens game last year...
1) Edge
2) ILB
3) IOL
Giants need a starter or immediate high impact player from this draft at each of these three positions to be a playoff team. As much as I would love another wide receiver, it would be a "nice to have" rather than a "must have" for this year. Clearly, if a 2021 playoff run is not the highest priority, then selecting players with higher ceilings or drafting best players available at positions where we currently have some strength/depth might be a better approach.
I for one would like to see playoff football this year rather than celebrating another year of moral victories and modest progress.
But, not at #11, unless it's Sewell. I think the value at #11 is WR, CB, Edge. OL will factor in starting at #42, imo.
That's a little like saying that if you have a good short passing game that you don't need a good RB.
I'd bet that Graham/Judge would prefer to have a stud at edge.
That said, as I mentioned, pass rush is not all that an OLD is required to do.
You mentioned a couple of guys that could be good players, but given the opportunity to upgrade...upgrade.
Not simply the pass rush but as has been pointed out, a capable Force player. The Giants are loaded with the ability to spill but the edges are soft. Be it Zone Read miscues, bootlegs, the occasional Jet and even taking on a pulling G or TE/FB in the power game, the edges have been poor.
There is also no one that the opposing OL is worried about on passing downs.
We truly do not know what the Giants have on the OLine. I'm content to see what JJ sees in them and look forward to improvement in 2021.
In that case, what’s the problem? Is that diagnosing speed by players? Bad coaching? And how do you fix it?
YEa but it didn't really hurt the defense. The OL did in fact hurt the offense. The offense was ranked near the bottom. The defense was ranked above average.
Plus, we have done a good job of getting something out of the one year stop gaps like Fackrel and Golden. Now we have the latest guy, Robinson (i think that's his name)
The D is very good on paper if you think Jackson will stabilize the corner position. The secondary has never been deeper in my lifetime. The DL is very good.
The OL needs a starter unless you think Peart is the goods and the guards are ready. MAybe they are. I'll believe that when I see it. If I had to add one stud to this team, i am adding a stud OLineman. We have numbers at edge. We have guys there that can at least play at a respectable level. We don't know what we have along the OL.
I just want a player in rounds 1-2. Get me two good starters and I will be happy, don't care where they play, really.
They need finishers, and they are often in the front seven getting to the QB. They're doing well building the backend and found a legit ILB in Martinez. Keep adding to it as the draft provides.
OL will factor in at #42.