So at 30 seconds we have the play where Barkley takes it 7ish yards to the house against the Jaguars, off a great juke move. We've seen that play like a million times.
But the next play shown at 50 seconds, Barkley takes a little flare out pass, makes one move (an absurdly effective side step), then goes north-south and emphatically runs over a guy for the first down! I hope Barkley 2.0 will do this too! I love the break it outside 70 yard TD run but I also love tough inside punishing runs.
I really hope for everyone’s sake that he gets healthy and stays healthy, even if he’s only 90% of what he used to be.
Also, Eric posted a video the other day of his favorite run in Giant history, Hampton off of the right. It inspired me to go back and watch Bradshaw’s. highlights. As much as I love Barkley I don’t think there was ever a pound for pound tougher runner back than 44. He was so much fun to watch.
that tap dances or shies away from contact in this reel.
Thats because it's a highlight film. You can make another 10 minute video of his TFL's.
Barkley is exciting to watch but needs to get the dirty yards too. That is how you win games. Hope he can do it.
He averaged 5.0 yards per carry. Give me that. Let's understand what an average is. That highlight film is about 4 years of highlights for most "good" running backs. This is a cross between Gayle Sayers and Eric Dickerson and some ppl still don't respect his game. You're watching one of the best ever to do it.
Watch this man's comeback this year. It's a privilege we get to witness him. May the football gods keep him healthy this year, bc he's going to do special things.
And if this team adds Waddle, and has to command two deep safeties, watch tf out. It's going to be sick.
Seriously, I'm on board for this. If this draft goes the way I think it will go, this is going to be a fun ride.
but that said, there were a shitload of highlights. I had forgotten how fast he is. Let's see what he's got left and hope he stays healthy and that his head is screwed on ok after a serious injury
that tap dances or shies away from contact in this reel.
That’s because he doesn’t do that.
BB I seems to think but if you lower your shoulder you will get dirty yards.
If there’s no crease there’s no dirty yards.
Barkley needs to work on picking up pass blocks outside of that he just needs to be healthy.
that tap dances or shies away from contact in this reel.
That’s because he doesn’t do that.
BB I seems to think but if you lower your shoulder you will get dirty yards.
If there’s no crease there’s no dirty yards.
Barkley needs to work on picking up pass blocks outside of that he just needs to be healthy.
Did you notice when Gallman took over the TFL's stopped ? Barkley's first move is to STOP RUNNING when he gets ball. That needs to end and he needs to block too. Great talent but why is 3rd and 1 and 4th and 1 an automatic pass play for Giants now ? Do Giants need to add another RB for short yardage and blocking ? I believe they do. Barkley is a HR threat but not the complete RB we thought we were getting.
that tap dances or shies away from contact in this reel.
That’s because he doesn’t do that.
BB I seems to think but if you lower your shoulder you will get dirty yards.
If there’s no crease there’s no dirty yards.
Barkley needs to work on picking up pass blocks outside of that he just needs to be healthy.
Did you notice when Gallman took over the TFL's stopped ? Barkley's first move is to STOP RUNNING when he gets ball. That needs to end and he needs to block too. Great talent but why is 3rd and 1 and 4th and 1 an automatic pass play for Giants now ? Do Giants need to add another RB for short yardage and blocking ? I believe they do. Barkley is a HR threat but not the complete RB we thought we were getting.
Come on, the OL gelling had something to do with that as well. Its not like the run game suddenly came to life when Barkley went down.
that tap dances or shies away from contact in this reel.
That’s because he doesn’t do that.
BB I seems to think but if you lower your shoulder you will get dirty yards.
If there’s no crease there’s no dirty yards.
Barkley needs to work on picking up pass blocks outside of that he just needs to be healthy.
Did you notice when Gallman took over the TFL's stopped ? Barkley's first move is to STOP RUNNING when he gets ball. That needs to end and he needs to block too. Great talent but why is 3rd and 1 and 4th and 1 an automatic pass play for Giants now ? Do Giants need to add another RB for short yardage and blocking ? I believe they do. Barkley is a HR threat but not the complete RB we thought we were getting.
Coincidentally, the OLine was re-shuffled and improved (and developed) at the same time.
We all love his homerun/big play ability, nobody questions that.
How about this quote by Tiki Barber last September, before Barkley got hurt?
Quote:
There is no denying Barkley struggled in pass protection. Pro Football Focus gave him a pass blocking grade of 25.5, which ranked him 69th of 76 eligible running backs in Week One.
“He might not be an every-down back,” Barber said on his CBS Sports Radio show. “He cannot pass protect, and it is starting to become glaring. It was probably the only issue he had to deal with coming into the NFL. He wasn’t asked to do it at Penn State. And you see him diving on the ground, not sticking his head in people’s chests. It’s gonna be a liability, because people see it now, it’s on tape, and it’s gonna come out.”
This is the problem. It's some of the same reason Gallman is unemployed right now. You MUST pass block in the NFL or its Not For Long. I'm not trying to be a d#ck about Barkley but that's the reality playing pro football.
I'm OK with him being a finesse back - he's an elite finesse back.
But I think it's a huge hurdle he must overcome - he wasn't a good pass blocker when he was healthy, and now he has to be good at it coming off a major knee injury.
We'll see. If he can figure it out, he's an elite RB.
...I would say that while it is highly preferred, Barkley does not have to be a good pass blocker in order to keep his job as RB1.
If there is something that an OC can scheme around, it is who the extra blocker might be on pass plays with a RB in the game.
The RB can chip to the flat, keep a TE in and slant the OL responsibilities away, roll out, play action.
I would love for Barkley to block like Clinton Portis, but he doesn't have to.
might have a huge impact. For Barkley, I think it's overstating it to say his putative inability to block will hinder his overall success as a feature back. Yeah, I get that it's important, but on balance....
Besides, I think you'll find that an improving, developing OLine plus a blocking TE will compensate for much of any shortfall Barkley wold have in blocking.
At this point, I'm not sure that people aren't just looking for something to piss about.
people want Gallman back despite his pass blocking
just because of "hard yards"? Give me a break. You can not like the Barkley pick and still be somewhat honest in this discussion.
Barkley hasn't yet ran behind even a marginal OL - its always been bad or awful. He's lined up with a TE who isn't a plus blocker. He's lined up with a statue at QB and then a rookie. Its been a constant uphill battle, and he's juggling being the HR threat on offense with staying honest and doing the dirty work too - it isn't simple.
I think its reasonable to assume his pass blocking will grade out better if the team also improves. Rudolph should help, along with the growth of the OL.
people want Gallman back despite his pass blocking
just because of "hard yards"? Give me a break. You can not like the Barkley pick and still be somewhat honest in this discussion.
Barkley hasn't yet ran behind even a marginal OL - its always been bad or awful. He's lined up with a TE who isn't a plus blocker. He's lined up with a statue at QB and then a rookie. Its been a constant uphill battle, and he's juggling being the HR threat on offense with staying honest and doing the dirty work too - it isn't simple.
I think its reasonable to assume his pass blocking will grade out better if the team also improves. Rudolph should help, along with the growth of the OL.
You seem him do things in that video that, highlight or not, very few if any others can do.
As far as hard yards, I see him get at least an extra three or four yards after seemingly being tackled on a lot of plays. You also see him near the goal line lower his shoulder and fire straight ahead like a missile. He's a smart player. He knows when to go down and when to go extra.
Note how Shurmur was regularly reducing SB’s touches in the second halves of tight contested games.
SB does not do what winning RBs do. He is not the best HB in the NFL - anyone posting that is just being a homer. Watch real top level HBs play, like Elliott and Derrick Henry, and see how they are invariably producing positive yardage. The real argument is whether SB is a Top 5 HB in the league. My opinion is probably but he is a young player who, despite the magic he sporadically produces, really needs to work on aspects of his game.
and always going against the grain doesn't make your points interesting. Barkley needs to block better but other than that he's a plus in every category.
You mention Elliott - well, can you name the OL and TE's he's played with? Ever wonder what the 2 RB's would do if they switched teams?
RE: I don’t believe SB helps the Giants win football games.
certain posters harp on Barkley not being able to help the team win.
Then usually, in the next breath they talk about having to score points on offense. Barkley has contributed 23 TD's as a Giant.
23 TD's. If that doesn't help a team win, I'd love to hear the fucked-up logic behind such nonsense.
Have you seen the Giants record when Barkley plays and is not injured ? I believe there is room for improvement. Maybe with better OL and WR Giants will start winning again. We shall see.
ACL are Bradley Chubb and Nick Bosa, and ironically, both of these players seem to be universally celebrated on BBI as players they would love to have on the Giants
for as much bs as the Barkley pick gets - if you could choose 1 non-QB
for 1 single game, assuming all were healthy, from the 2018 draft I think I'd still pick him.
Obviously depends on the rest of the roster in discussion but I think he'd pretty clearly be my top choice with Jaire Alexander probably #2. As much talk as there is re: Nelson I don't think guards have near that kind of impact on an individual game and a lot of his value (fairly so) is tied into the general shelf life and reliability of interior OL.
Really hope Barkley comes back healthy and gives them a few more years like his rookie year. He was really special.
So is "so many people?" Maybe the fans do, but NYG would not take a guard. If they view him as a tackle, that's a different story. But he's not going to be the pick if he's a guard in the NFL.
Is the pass blocking and getting to the line of scrimmage quickly to avoid losses. Statistically, SB needs to avoid negative yardage on rushing plays which is exactly what you don’t want from an HB.
I hope he comes back strong and improves his game.
You should. He should not have been hired as our head coach, but he is a skilled offensive coach who had repeatedly been hired by expert NFL coaches. The fact that Shurmur was trying to save his job in 2019 and one if his moves was to de emphasize SB as close games neared their conclusion should be a warning sign.
to support that Barkley was "de-emphasized" in close games?? Looked to me like his carries when the score was within 0-3 points remained the same throughout the quarters.
Where there was a disparity was in the 4th quarter when the team was behind by 7 points, which isn't unexpected.
What metric actually shows that Barkley was used less in close games, or is this yet another abstract point to try and show that Barkley is ineffective to help win games?
RE: for as much bs as the Barkley pick gets - if you could choose 1 non-QB
for 1 single game, assuming all were healthy, from the 2018 draft I think I'd still pick him.
Obviously depends on the rest of the roster in discussion but I think he'd pretty clearly be my top choice with Jaire Alexander probably #2. As much talk as there is re: Nelson I don't think guards have near that kind of impact on an individual game and a lot of his value (fairly so) is tied into the general shelf life and reliability of interior OL.
Really hope Barkley comes back healthy and gives them a few more years like his rookie year. He was really special.
Call me an idiot, etc. but I believe a great player can have a huge impact from any position on the field. The games are won and lost in the trenches - we all know that. Pressure up the middle is the most disruptive to a QB. We know that. Yet great G's aren't worth top 10 picks? But shiny hood ornament skill players are? Just Offensive Tackles are important enough? It's ridiculous.
On the flip side - football is the ultimate team sport. No 1 individual is going to win games by himself. It's why the "what has Barkley gotten us in terms of W's/L's" is equally nauseating. You can't measure individual player acquisition in binary Wins/Losses. You can measure their effort level, attitude, production etc. But W's/L's falls on the organization as a whole.
to support that Barkley was "de-emphasized" in close games?? Looked to me like his carries when the score was within 0-3 points remained the same throughout the quarters.
Where there was a disparity was in the 4th quarter when the team was behind by 7 points, which isn't unexpected.
What metric actually shows that Barkley was used less in close games, or is this yet another abstract point to try and show that Barkley is ineffective to help win games?
We had a lot of close games last season. Maybe even the most in the league. And, after getting a look at him for 2 games, for the rest of the season they didn't use him in the 4th quarter even once.
Yep. The offensive line was so ugly in beginning of year guy is getting tackled by three players behind the line of scrimmage, but it’s Barkley’s fault for not getting north -south.
Our offensive line isn’t good, but they run block well and I’m excited as shit to see what SB looks like. Lot less whining from these clowns about getting north south Id imagine when he’s averaging 6 ypc.
Call me an idiot, etc. but I believe a great player can have a huge impact from any position on the field. The games are won and lost in the trenches - we all know that. Pressure up the middle is the most disruptive to a QB. We know that. Yet great G's aren't worth top 10 picks? But shiny hood ornament skill players are? Just Offensive Tackles are important enough? It's ridiculous.
On the flip side - football is the ultimate team sport. No 1 individual is going to win games by himself. It's why the "what has Barkley gotten us in terms of W's/L's" is equally nauseating. You can't measure individual player acquisition in binary Wins/Losses. You can measure their effort level, attitude, production etc. But W's/L's falls on the organization as a whole.
It the supposed positional importance that paints people into a corner when it comes to 2018. Some that screamed that Barkley was a fireable offense because of poor positional value wanted Nelson - which is a similarly poor positional value.
I agree with you. You build a winning team by amassing as many good players as you can who can mesh. If a fantastic G is available. If a fantastic RB is available, select them. That's where the analytics impacts decisions, and not always for the good. But then again, you also have people complaining about the resources put into the defensive backfield, yet the analytics support that approach.
Is the pass blocking and getting to the line of scrimmage quickly to avoid losses. Statistically, SB needs to avoid negative yardage on rushing plays which is exactly what you don’t want from an HB.
I hope he comes back strong and improves his game.
Thanks for the answer. I appreciate it, but I disagree.
It is not Barkley's job to see that DJ doesn't get sacked, that's on JG. (and all of the many pieces involved).
I also do not think that he need to get to the LOS and quicker.
As an example, look at the 2:15 mark on the video. Barkley's patience in allowing the RG to come off of his double on the 3tech and get to the MIKE turned a "Dirty-tough yard, 2yd gain," into a 15yd touchdown.
Call me an idiot, etc. but I believe a great player can have a huge impact from any position on the field. The games are won and lost in the trenches - we all know that. Pressure up the middle is the most disruptive to a QB. We know that. Yet great G's aren't worth top 10 picks? But shiny hood ornament skill players are? Just Offensive Tackles are important enough? It's ridiculous.
On the flip side - football is the ultimate team sport. No 1 individual is going to win games by himself. It's why the "what has Barkley gotten us in terms of W's/L's" is equally nauseating. You can't measure individual player acquisition in binary Wins/Losses. You can measure their effort level, attitude, production etc. But W's/L's falls on the organization as a whole.
You are certainly spot on with your point about the LOS across all positions. So I have grown to be perfectly fine with investing a high pick in any OL position.
I disagree with your second point. QBs absolutely determine the outcome of games more than any other position. Their ability to read defenses (pre and post) and execute the play (especially delivering a throw) are paramount to an outcome. Yes, it is a team game, but the QB isn't just 1/11th of the offense, another piece.
Posters can keep swimming against the current, but RBs just aren't as valuable as they used to be. You can find players who are 85-90% the player Barkley is but just as impactful to the team. Case in point is Nick Chubb from the '18 NFL draft. A second rounder but he's been just as impactful and cheaper. Browns got him for 4yrs/$7.4M. We have Barkley was 4yrs/$31M. I think that tells the story fairly well...no?
Call me an idiot, etc. but I believe a great player can have a huge impact from any position on the field. The games are won and lost in the trenches - we all know that. Pressure up the middle is the most disruptive to a QB. We know that. Yet great G's aren't worth top 10 picks? But shiny hood ornament skill players are? Just Offensive Tackles are important enough? It's ridiculous.
On the flip side - football is the ultimate team sport. No 1 individual is going to win games by himself. It's why the "what has Barkley gotten us in terms of W's/L's" is equally nauseating. You can't measure individual player acquisition in binary Wins/Losses. You can measure their effort level, attitude, production etc. But W's/L's falls on the organization as a whole.
You are certainly spot on with your point about the LOS across all positions. So I have grown to be perfectly fine with investing a high pick in any OL position.
I disagree with your second point. QBs absolutely determine the outcome of games more than any other position. Their ability to read defenses (pre and post) and execute the play (especially delivering a throw) are paramount to an outcome. Yes, it is a team game, but the QB isn't just 1/11th of the offense, another piece.
Posters can keep swimming against the current, but RBs just aren't as valuable as they used to be. You can find players who are 85-90% the player Barkley is but just as impactful to the team. Case in point is Nick Chubb from the '18 NFL draft. A second rounder but he's been just as impactful and cheaper. Browns got him for 4yrs/$7.4M. We have Barkley was 4yrs/$31M. I think that tells the story fairly well...no?
All of that is true. It was a mistake. You are right. I understand why they did it and it wasn't the end of the world. The thing is, the pick would have been Darnold if it wasn't Barkley. You can say we don't know that but we do. We picked Barkley because they were hoping for some Eli magic. If they didn't believe that, they were going to draft a QB. They would have drafted Darnold. That would have been worse.
You should let it go brother.
It happened, stop letting the past continue to affect you. It is like you have an irrational need for your BBI to admit it was the wrong pick.
It was.
It's over.
He is a Giant.
For better or worse, he beloved one.
Get on the train and root for it to all work out, because my friend, you can't change a thing.
There can be no doubt after watching this clip and being reminded of his immense talent. It can be argued that the Giants should have traded down because they were not "ready" for a player of this caliber, but if no trades of commensurate value were presented, then they had to take Barkley. Suggesting they should have taken Nelson or Bradley Chubb is silly.
And Shurmur completely mismanaged him. He is a playmaker - not a blocker. Taking him out of games because he is a below average blocker is ridiculous. He is a three down playmaking machine. Hopefully he will be fully healthy in 2021 and Judge will weaponize his talent through scheme and sensible supporting personnel.
According to everything we've heard about the team
if not Barkley, it would not have been Darnold; it would have been Chubb. But even so, I'd much rather have Barkley than any of the alternatives.
Even so, whether you agreed or disagreed with the pick, it's in the past and you would be very hard-pressed to say that he's not a good player. You'd be equally hard-pressed to say that the solitary pick doomed the franchise.
At the very worst, it's a pick that you personally did not like and, piqued the frustration you have the the team did not hire you to be its GM.
Barkley ran less in the 2nd halves of games and was incredibly ineffective as a receiver generating just 3.1 yards per pass targeted with a low pass catch ratio in situations where the Giants were trailing late in games (<4 minutes to go). Barkley 2019 splits - ( New Window )
I get it; but, unlike others, I think it's still an interesting debate in general. And that's because the story isn't over yet. Will Barkley recover? If so, will Mara extend despite this evidence that paying a big, second contract to a RB is very risky? Can we trade him for future collateral? Etc.
Far more posts from folks trying to convince themselves
how bad David Mayo was in all of the Panthers highlights?
Just want to make sure we're balanced in what we're seeing. But maybe I'm not qualified to view tape, and DM did at that time deserve a decent sized contract that he wound up not deserving after all.
There's probably some sort of lesson here about introducing evidence, but I dropped out of law school too soon to know for sure.
RE: Far more posts from folks trying to convince themselves
that Giants team picking Barkley at #2 was a good choice.
Three years later and still not at all compelling...
I think it is more that people who are convinced that Barkley was not a good choice, see it as their sworn mission to convince others that Barkley is not a good player.
that Giants team picking Barkley at #2 was a good choice.
Three years later and still not at all compelling...
I think it is more that people who are convinced that Barkley was not a good choice, see it as their sworn mission to convince others that Barkley is not a good player.
So there isn't a sworn mission to convince others - by others - that Barkley wasn't a good pick?
Like this thread for instance...
RE: RE: Far more posts from folks trying to convince themselves
that Giants team picking Barkley at #2 was a good choice.
Three years later and still not at all compelling...
I think it is more that people who are convinced that Barkley was not a good choice, see it as their sworn mission to convince others that Barkley is not a good player.
Bill,
We spent the #2 overall pick on a terrific prospect who plays a position that tends to be prone to injury. And after three years, that prospect has played one full season, one injury-affected season, and one season lost almost entirely to injury.
The naysayers are right, as of now, albeit with a bullet. Barkley has enough ability and enough time to quiet any doubts. But the doubts are winning right now for the same reason they existed in the first place.
I get it; but, unlike others, I think it's still an interesting debate in general. And that's because the story isn't over yet. Will Barkley recover? If so, will Mara extend despite this evidence that paying a big, second contract to a RB is very risky? Can we trade him for future collateral? Etc.
I think we are at the point where we need to see 2021 play out. That's where I am at least. I can't say if SB should be extended or not. I lean no. A bunch of different things could happen in 2021 to change that opinion.
We could trade him for what today? Nothing. If he plays well in 2021 like I expect he will be resigned as much for business reasons as team reasons. Bottom line, this is a business.
I don't see us trading a player that made a triumphant return from injury. The only scenario I see them trading Barkley is that if we are such a shit show in 2021 DG is let go and we move on from Jones in 2022. In that scenario, I could see us trading Barkley for draft capital in an attempt to move up in 2022.
want to screw around with tagging options...whatever. But no need to extend longer term, for what purpose really?
The wait and see crowd will do what they seemingly do best...wait and see.
And then when they see Barkley run for 125 yards in a certain game, they will have everything they need? Or if they don’t see that burst as often as he had, my guess is they will say, let’s wait and see how he looks in 2022 before extending.
some on BBI have been willing to wait post 2019 for DG's version of the team to come together with Jones as QB. Others are not willing to wait and cherry pick stats for rookies or young players as it is currently happening, so they keep saying things like "see i told you, the team sucks!" and when the team becomes good this year, they will say things like "wow, about time."
The difference between some impatient posters and ridiculous posters are that, when the Giants are a good team, the impatient ones will have some humility and say hey you know what, this actually seems like it's working out.
The ridiculous posters will just find something else to bitch about with DG or some other facet of the team, and around and around we go.
The Leonard Williams trade is a perfect example of how some people on this site are just whiny fucking women, and will never be satisfied. Not only did the trade workout, but DG was able to sign him at a reasonable 3 year deal up until the point where we have to pay Jones. So all the bitching and moaning that posters did a) right after the trade happened b) after Williams' first 8 games and c) those few days during FA where Williams wasn't signed and it was "severely effecting our ability to sign free agents" amounted to absolutely nothing, because none of the things that these posters said actually came true, they just spent their days crying like a little girl about it because they have nothing better to do
is another great example. Draft picks are investments. You take someone in the top 5, you hope they are a big piece of the franchise for 10 years.
Barkley just turned 24, he'll basically be playing his third healthy season at the start of this year. Let's see what he brings to the table as a part of this team moving forward before we say things like 'awful pick' or 'horrible move' or whatever the hell you want to say.
I remember 2018 and parts of 2019, we all knew that Barkley was probably the most talented running back in football, one of the game's most dynamic players. But guess what, the rest of the team absolutely sucked.
RE: Some here don’t need to see 2021 to decide on extension. If the Giants
want to screw around with tagging options...whatever. But no need to extend longer term, for what purpose really?
The wait and see crowd will do what they seemingly do best...wait and see.
And then when they see Barkley run for 125 yards in a certain game, they will have everything they need? Or if they don’t see that burst as often as he had, my guess is they will say, let’s wait and see how he looks in 2022 before extending.
Actually what people see or don't see regarding an extension means absolutely nothing. We aren't making that decision, Clownshoes.
If you think you have enough information one way or another now, then you should become a fortune teller. That way, you can still stay part of the Circus.
is another great example. Draft picks are investments. You take someone in the top 5, you hope they are a big piece of the franchise for 10 years.
Barkley just turned 24, he'll basically be playing his third healthy season at the start of this year. Let's see what he brings to the table as a part of this team moving forward before we say things like 'awful pick' or 'horrible move' or whatever the hell you want to say.
I remember 2018 and parts of 2019, we all knew that Barkley was probably the most talented running back in football, one of the game's most dynamic players. But guess what, the rest of the team absolutely sucked.
Ryan, you're guilty of something in this post that is inadvertently dismissive of the reason why some were resistant to this pick in the first place.
When you say that Barkley is "playing his third healthy season" as though he should get a pass for the injuries, that's a fundamental flaw, IMO. One of the reasons why people are reticent to choose RBs so early in the draft is because that's a position that tends to suffer injuries more frequently than others.
If you want to make the case that Barkley is worth it in spite of the injuries, so be it - I think there's a valid case to be made. But if you try to ignore the fact that Barkley does have the sort of injury history already that confirms some of the pre-draft concerns, I think that starts to feel intentionally misleading.
Barkley is entering his fourth season. End. Full stop.
He's good enough that we should still be viewing his play from this point forward, and shouldn't need to pretend that his injuries haven't happened or that they aren't part of what makes RB investments risky.
for all the people who were and are still so offended we took him.
Darnold has not proven to be a better pick and has been traded.
Rosen is a joke.
Those two point alone should make the majority of the Barkley naysayers shut up because those two are really who the masses wanted, but I'll go on.
Chubb is a nice player but is not on the level that gives me any buyer's remorse on Barkley.
For the people who love Quenton Nelson. I think you'll have to explain how picking a guard at 2 is ok but a RB at 2 is not.
The elephant in the BBI room is Lamar Jackson because of Go Terps. Credit to Terps for seeing he would become a very good player but I personally think Jackson is far more limited than his supporters would admit. We may have had marginally better regular seasons the last few years but with the surrounding cast we've had, probably not by much. We would still be sitting here wondering if we had a guy that could truly take a passing game and put it on his shoulders throughout the month of January and lead a team to a championship in a passing league.
Josh Allen is the big miss here and mostly everyone on BBI (at least that I remember reading at the time) should be in agreement that very few if any here, or in the media/analyst circles for that matter, felt that he would amount to much as an NFL starting QB.
Barkley is a fine player. Injuries have been the problem but I find it hard to blame anyone in the NFL for injuries. They are a part of the game.
i get that argument, especially when it comes to RBs...i really do. But just for comparison, Bradley Chubb, Nick Bosa....Von Miller...Deshaun Watson...the list goes on for top 10 players that have suffered ACL tears early on in their careers.
So...it just feels like because it happened to OUR guy, we think its all doom and gloom
RE: RE: RE: Far more posts from folks trying to convince themselves
that Giants team picking Barkley at #2 was a good choice.
Three years later and still not at all compelling...
I think it is more that people who are convinced that Barkley was not a good choice, see it as their sworn mission to convince others that Barkley is not a good player.
Bill,
We spent the #2 overall pick on a terrific prospect who plays a position that tends to be prone to injury. And after three years, that prospect has played one full season, one injury-affected season, and one season lost almost entirely to injury.
The naysayers are right, as of now, albeit with a bullet. Barkley has enough ability and enough time to quiet any doubts. But the doubts are winning right now for the same reason they existed in the first place.
I would say that the pick is a business-decision that you can debate one way or the other; the other is a player evaluation which they've construed to be equivalent to the business decision. I'd also say that he is a good player, regardless of whether he is injured and can play or not. He might be good as an inherent quality but not productive.
but Adrian Peterson is a running back who suffered a ACL tear that was actually worse than Barkley's, and his next season he rushed for almost 1500 yards. Now, he was in his 9th season by then so he wasn't the same player. But in terms of the immediate effect, it didn't seem to hurt him much.
i get that argument, especially when it comes to RBs...i really do. But just for comparison, Bradley Chubb, Nick Bosa....Von Miller...Deshaun Watson...the list goes on for top 10 players that have suffered ACL tears early on in their careers.
So...it just feels like because it happened to OUR guy, we think its all doom and gloom
Some guys suffer injuries in spite of a lack of risk at their position; some guys suffer injuries that are in line with the risk that we know about their position.
You're right that a lot of top draft picks have suffered ACL injuries. The only solution to that is to not draft at the top of the draft - that seems silly, because it's pretty clear that the correlation is coincidental.
But RBs in general suffer injuries more than other positions. That isn't a coincidence at this point; we have enough data to confirm that the position does lend itself to injury more than others.
Maybe Barkley's injury falls into the fluke coincidence that other top draft picks do. But he's a RB, so he also falls into that data point as well.
RE: RE: Some here don’t need to see 2021 to decide on extension. If the Giants
want to screw around with tagging options...whatever. But no need to extend longer term, for what purpose really?
The wait and see crowd will do what they seemingly do best...wait and see.
And then when they see Barkley run for 125 yards in a certain game, they will have everything they need? Or if they don’t see that burst as often as he had, my guess is they will say, let’s wait and see how he looks in 2022 before extending.
Actually what people see or don't see regarding an extension means absolutely nothing. We aren't making that decision, Clownshoes.
If you think you have enough information one way or another now, then you should become a fortune teller. That way, you can still stay part of the Circus.
My post was for gratefulhead who mentioned extension above in his post.
You're just
Your sole purpose on the site is to find a bw, Terps or post of mine (among a handful of others) and look to call names which really just makes you comic relief on the site with no opinions shared yourself (if you had one).
But happy to go at it with you if you like as you have seemed to found some new confidence lately with your frequent posting. Wonder why that is...?
But it only winds up with you looking for your escape hatch eventually.
You can't sit there one day saying I post all the time and then the next day wonder why I'm frequently posting, can you??
Actually you can - because it is the trolling thing you rely on. Acting as if I'm not posting much is a really strange tactic. It's the way of a Clown.
Of what I just wrote. It all blows up if we are a shit show in 2021.
Many people on BBI think many of you are rooting for that.
Maybe not, but I have to tell you, it feels that way.
I haven't commented on '21 and where I think it could end up. The team isn't a finished product yet with the draft pending and another wave of potential free agents. I have harped on this being a critical year for Jones and how he really has to finally deliver something convincing to prove he's not trending to game manager status.
But I think those on the other side of the aisle - the Bobby McFerrins: don't worry, be happy contingent - confuse expecting an outcome, based on analyzing the factors, with rooting for an outcome.
You’re the only one trolling from what we can see...
I think we can all identify players in other sports who are flashy and talented and don't help their teams win games.
Being a Real Madrid fan, my nominee is Eden Hazard. World class dribbling skills but they are not used to set up scores or offensive plays. The coach doesn't play him. I bet the NBA fans here can name plenty of players who put up highlight reels and never seem to help their teams. I'm not saying Saquon is necessarily like that, but the precedent exists: wow-factor talented players who aren't winners.
Of what I just wrote. It all blows up if we are a shit show in 2021.
Many people on BBI think many of you are rooting for that.
Maybe not, but I have to tell you, it feels that way.
I haven't commented on '21 and where I think it could end up. The team isn't a finished product yet with the draft pending and another wave of potential free agents. I have harped on this being a critical year for Jones and how he really has to finally deliver something convincing to prove he's not trending to game manager status.
But I think those on the other side of the aisle - the Bobby McFerrins: don't worry, be happy contingent - confuse expecting an outcome, based on analyzing the factors, with rooting for an outcome.
I get that man. I was fucking livid the day they announced DG was staying.
Furious.
I came here and said so. 15 and 33 is stupid bad. Morons said it wasn't and I ignored the morons. I don't argue with the willfully ignorant. I said my piece and accepted the new paradigm that DG is still here.
The signing makes sense to me, even Booker. I think Andersen and Odenigbo are under the radar monster signings. I think Ross was brilliant to get. He wont start but if we have to sub him in, they will have to honor his speed.
Of all the FA's, I wanted Golloday. I thought he was the player that fit the best with Jones. I want Hunter, Rudolph is a perfect substitute. So from my perspective the coach and GM hit it out of the park. I am not an expert and accept anyone that does not agree. That's cool.
I am an excited Giant fan, I guess, I just want that for you.
(from a Lions divisional rival) is that Judge and O'Brien are running the show. Gettleman is a figurehead at this point.
I agree with this.
I think the baton has already been passed, though I expect that Gettleman will remain in a significant role with the team, as sort of a consigliere, whether that's retaining the GM title or with some sort of senior executive title that formalizes O'Brien's standing. Either way, I think O'Brien is already in the co-pilot's chair already, at least.
And whatever the power structure is, now and going forward, it certainly appears to be working well this offseason.
RE: My conclusion from the 3 Lions players signed and Rudolph
(from a Lions divisional rival) is that Judge and O'Brien are running the show. Gettleman is a figurehead at this point.
May very well be true. I thought the decisions this offseason were smart. Williams and the Giants gambled in 2020. Williams won and because Judge didn't want to lose the leader of his defense in year 2, they had to pay for the sacks. Secondary improved greatly on paper for 2021, Williams has gotten consistent pressure everywhere he has played. I think he gets more sacks, not less in 2021. Maybe DG supplied Shurmur exactly what he asked for? I mean it's possible. Not a DG fan but I don't know the details behind what happened in 2019.
RE: My conclusion from the 3 Lions players signed and Rudolph
(from a Lions divisional rival) is that Judge and O'Brien are running the show. Gettleman is a figurehead at this point.
I just can't buy it. I want to, but that would be a major shift with how the Maras have done business.
It's not like Judge was this established HC coach with a glowing resume. This is his first rodeo EVER as the HC. I just can't imagine that being enough for Mara to change the power dynamic. I mean, at the end of the day, we were still 6-10...another double digit loss season.
RE: RE: My conclusion from the 3 Lions players signed and Rudolph
(from a Lions divisional rival) is that Judge and O'Brien are running the show. Gettleman is a figurehead at this point.
I agree with this.
I think the baton has already been passed, though I expect that Gettleman will remain in a significant role with the team, as sort of a consigliere, whether that's retaining the GM title or with some sort of senior executive title that formalizes O'Brien's standing. Either way, I think O'Brien is already in the co-pilot's chair already, at least.
And whatever the power structure is, now and going forward, it certainly appears to be working well this offseason.
If the baton has passed, then only good things can come from it. Just not so certain yet.
The improvement in free agent results last year and “some” of the adds this year do lead to believe in a different mindset. Thanks the lord...
RE: RE: this thread is going to turn into a pissing match
(from a Lions divisional rival) is that Judge and O'Brien are running the show. Gettleman is a figurehead at this point.
I just can't buy it. I want to, but that would be a major shift with how the Maras have done business.
It's not like Judge was this established HC coach with a glowing resume. This is his first rodeo EVER as the HC. I just can't imagine that being enough for Mara to change the power dynamic. I mean, at the end of the day, we were still 6-10...another double digit loss season.
I was expecting 6-10. The defense and offense surprised me. maybe the power structure didn't change. Maybe DG has always included the coach in player decisions? Shurmur wanted SB? Possible? Could it be that simple? Judge had a vision and Shurmur didn't?
you really, really need to step away from the keyboard.
That's odd coming from a guy who tries to make the argument that Barkley doesn't do things to help a team win. Again - he's scored 23 TD's. Aren't scoring points a critical part of helping a team??
If your putting out takes like that, you probably shouldn't be telling others to take a break.
RE: RE: My conclusion from the 3 Lions players signed and Rudolph
(from a Lions divisional rival) is that Judge and O'Brien are running the show. Gettleman is a figurehead at this point.
I agree with this.
I think the baton has already been passed, though I expect that Gettleman will remain in a significant role with the team, as sort of a consigliere, whether that's retaining the GM title or with some sort of senior executive title that formalizes O'Brien's standing. Either way, I think O'Brien is already in the co-pilot's chair already, at least.
And whatever the power structure is, now and going forward, it certainly appears to be working well this offseason.
Is our situation really all that different than that of any other strong coach with a plan on how he wants to team to look? is DG any more or less a figurehead than Belicek's GM, Rhule's GM, Kingsbury's GM, Shanahan's GM, etc?
(from a Lions divisional rival) is that Judge and O'Brien are running the show. Gettleman is a figurehead at this point.
I agree with this.
I think the baton has already been passed, though I expect that Gettleman will remain in a significant role with the team, as sort of a consigliere, whether that's retaining the GM title or with some sort of senior executive title that formalizes O'Brien's standing. Either way, I think O'Brien is already in the co-pilot's chair already, at least.
And whatever the power structure is, now and going forward, it certainly appears to be working well this offseason.
Is our situation really all that different than that of any other strong coach with a plan on how he wants to team to look? is DG any more or less a figurehead than Belicek's GM, Rhule's GM, Kingsbury's GM, Shanahan's GM, etc?
If our current situation is we have a strong coach who actually has a plan then Gettleman can serve coffee in the building for all I care.
Just answer questions if asked and stay out of the way...
RE: RE: RE: My conclusion from the 3 Lions players signed and Rudolph
I just can't buy it. I want to, but that would be a major shift with how the Maras have done business.
It's not like Judge was this established HC coach with a glowing resume. This is his first rodeo EVER as the HC. I just can't imagine that being enough for Mara to change the power dynamic. I mean, at the end of the day, we were still 6-10...another double digit loss season.
I was expecting 6-10. The defense and offense surprised me. maybe the power structure didn't change. Maybe DG has always included the coach in player decisions? Shurmur wanted SB? Possible? Could it be that simple? Judge had a vision and Shurmur didn't?
It may be as simple as what Mara has proclaimed - Judge and DG work "well together".
Perhaps the message there is Shurmur and DG didn't and maybe Gettleman made decisions Shurmur didn't agree with...?
Whatever the case, I'm sticking firm that Mara isn't going to hand the keys over to a first time ever HC. Belichick - maybe/yes.
The only thing making "not for long" the most ridiculous statement re: Barkley is injury.
Keep a TE in to block and allow Barkley to run routes.
Not for long...
...GTFOuttaher
X1000.
Everytime Barkley is asked to block is a play we are not maximizing our chances and is bad coaching. Get him out running routes and put pressure on the defense.
My statement that Barkley doesn't do things to help win is vs a replacement starter, an average NFL starting HB. I'm not claiming the Giants could go out there with just 10 men and do just as well.
My statement that Barkley doesn't do things to help win is vs a replacement starter, an average NFL starting HB. I'm not claiming the Giants could go out there with just 10 men and do just as well.
So how many TD's does a replacement player score? Gallman had 6TD's last season.
Everytime Barkley is asked to block is a play we are not maximizing our chances and is bad coaching. Get him out running routes and put pressure on the defense.
I'm buying this. I'd would much rather SB be used as a decoy rather than a blocker. The blocking challenges don't bother me as much as others. I see the point, but don't expect him to be Walter Payton. It's really not how SB is wound...
RE: RE: this thread is going to turn into a pissing match
But let's adjust for the injury and say he's at about a 10 per season rate.
That's good. But other backs could get very close to that at a cheaper rate than 4yrs/$31M+.
Nick Chubb, for example, from the same 2018 class, has 30 TDs/3 years at a pay rate of 4yrs/$7m.
You could also just look at the stats. 15 TD's in his rookie year. 8TD's his second year. 2000 yards from scrimmage his rookie year 1,430 his second year.
If that's replacement back quality, you have a long way to go to prove that, even if you try to minimize the TD numbers over 3 seasons, like you did for some reason
RE: RE: RE: this thread is going to turn into a pissing match
that this isn't a normal knee injury or recovery. I guess we will know by the summer.
It's the Giants, so you know as well as I do that this could very well be one of those devastating injuries where the player is never the same. It's April and the guy is barely able to run.
You should. He should not have been hired as our head coach, but he is a skilled offensive coach who had repeatedly been hired by expert NFL coaches. The fact that Shurmur was trying to save his job in 2019 and one if his moves was to de emphasize SB as close games neared their conclusion should be a warning sign.
that this isn't a normal knee injury or recovery. I guess we will know by the summer.
It's the Giants, so you know as well as I do that this could very well be one of those devastating injuries where the player is never the same. It's April and the guy is barely able to run.
If it was anything beyond “normal” we would have heard about it, I’m certain of it..
the fact it took so long to even do the surgery, usually teams don't wait what, a month to do the surgery like the Giants and BArkley did, due to the swelling?
Plus he tore his meniscus too. I will stick to my belief that this was not an ordinary ACL. I need to be prepared for the worst.
I'm not sure what is being benchmarked as "normal" but he tore his ACL, partially tore his meniscus and had MCL damage too. That's a big blow to the knee.
Now - all of those things can be recovered from. But it was at least a 3-pronged injury.
Let’s hope he can still be that good
But the next play shown at 50 seconds, Barkley takes a little flare out pass, makes one move (an absurdly effective side step), then goes north-south and emphatically runs over a guy for the first down! I hope Barkley 2.0 will do this too! I love the break it outside 70 yard TD run but I also love tough inside punishing runs.
Also, Eric posted a video the other day of his favorite run in Giant history, Hampton off of the right. It inspired me to go back and watch Bradshaw’s. highlights. As much as I love Barkley I don’t think there was ever a pound for pound tougher runner back than 44. He was so much fun to watch.
Thats because it's a highlight film. You can make another 10 minute video of his TFL's.
Barkley is exciting to watch but needs to get the dirty yards too. That is how you win games. Hope he can do it.
Thats because it's a highlight film. You can make another 10 minute video of his TFL's.
Barkley is exciting to watch but needs to get the dirty yards too. That is how you win games. Hope he can do it.
Maybe someone will superimpose the scoreboard or current record on each clip!
Get well Barkley.
Quote:
that tap dances or shies away from contact in this reel.
Thats because it's a highlight film. You can make another 10 minute video of his TFL's.
Barkley is exciting to watch but needs to get the dirty yards too. That is how you win games. Hope he can do it.
He averaged 5.0 yards per carry. Give me that. Let's understand what an average is. That highlight film is about 4 years of highlights for most "good" running backs. This is a cross between Gayle Sayers and Eric Dickerson and some ppl still don't respect his game. You're watching one of the best ever to do it.
Watch this man's comeback this year. It's a privilege we get to witness him. May the football gods keep him healthy this year, bc he's going to do special things.
And if this team adds Waddle, and has to command two deep safeties, watch tf out. It's going to be sick.
Seriously, I'm on board for this. If this draft goes the way I think it will go, this is going to be a fun ride.
Rehab workout - ( New Window )
That’s because he doesn’t do that.
BB I seems to think but if you lower your shoulder you will get dirty yards.
If there’s no crease there’s no dirty yards.
Barkley needs to work on picking up pass blocks outside of that he just needs to be healthy.
Quote:
that tap dances or shies away from contact in this reel.
That’s because he doesn’t do that.
BB I seems to think but if you lower your shoulder you will get dirty yards.
If there’s no crease there’s no dirty yards.
Barkley needs to work on picking up pass blocks outside of that he just needs to be healthy.
Did you notice when Gallman took over the TFL's stopped ? Barkley's first move is to STOP RUNNING when he gets ball. That needs to end and he needs to block too. Great talent but why is 3rd and 1 and 4th and 1 an automatic pass play for Giants now ? Do Giants need to add another RB for short yardage and blocking ? I believe they do. Barkley is a HR threat but not the complete RB we thought we were getting.
Quote:
In comment 15212147 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
that tap dances or shies away from contact in this reel.
That’s because he doesn’t do that.
BB I seems to think but if you lower your shoulder you will get dirty yards.
If there’s no crease there’s no dirty yards.
Barkley needs to work on picking up pass blocks outside of that he just needs to be healthy.
Did you notice when Gallman took over the TFL's stopped ? Barkley's first move is to STOP RUNNING when he gets ball. That needs to end and he needs to block too. Great talent but why is 3rd and 1 and 4th and 1 an automatic pass play for Giants now ? Do Giants need to add another RB for short yardage and blocking ? I believe they do. Barkley is a HR threat but not the complete RB we thought we were getting.
Come on, the OL gelling had something to do with that as well. Its not like the run game suddenly came to life when Barkley went down.
Quote:
In comment 15212147 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
that tap dances or shies away from contact in this reel.
That’s because he doesn’t do that.
BB I seems to think but if you lower your shoulder you will get dirty yards.
If there’s no crease there’s no dirty yards.
Barkley needs to work on picking up pass blocks outside of that he just needs to be healthy.
Did you notice when Gallman took over the TFL's stopped ? Barkley's first move is to STOP RUNNING when he gets ball. That needs to end and he needs to block too. Great talent but why is 3rd and 1 and 4th and 1 an automatic pass play for Giants now ? Do Giants need to add another RB for short yardage and blocking ? I believe they do. Barkley is a HR threat but not the complete RB we thought we were getting.
Coincidentally, the OLine was re-shuffled and improved (and developed) at the same time.
ok
He stops when there's nowhere to run....
... Gallman doesn't fix that in any way.
We disagree in our assessment.
How about this quote by Tiki Barber last September, before Barkley got hurt?
“He might not be an every-down back,” Barber said on his CBS Sports Radio show. “He cannot pass protect, and it is starting to become glaring. It was probably the only issue he had to deal with coming into the NFL. He wasn’t asked to do it at Penn State. And you see him diving on the ground, not sticking his head in people’s chests. It’s gonna be a liability, because people see it now, it’s on tape, and it’s gonna come out.”
This is the problem. It's some of the same reason Gallman is unemployed right now. You MUST pass block in the NFL or its Not For Long. I'm not trying to be a d#ck about Barkley but that's the reality playing pro football.
The only thing making "not for long" the most ridiculous statement re: Barkley is injury.
Keep a TE in to block and allow Barkley to run routes.
Not for long...
...GTFOuttaher
Good thing for you is Gallman is still out there so someone will eventually get those hard yards for sure.
But I think it's a huge hurdle he must overcome - he wasn't a good pass blocker when he was healthy, and now he has to be good at it coming off a major knee injury.
We'll see. If he can figure it out, he's an elite RB.
If there is something that an OC can scheme around, it is who the extra blocker might be on pass plays with a RB in the game.
The RB can chip to the flat, keep a TE in and slant the OL responsibilities away, roll out, play action.
I would love for Barkley to block like Clinton Portis, but he doesn't have to.
Besides, I think you'll find that an improving, developing OLine plus a blocking TE will compensate for much of any shortfall Barkley wold have in blocking.
At this point, I'm not sure that people aren't just looking for something to piss about.
Barkley hasn't yet ran behind even a marginal OL - its always been bad or awful. He's lined up with a TE who isn't a plus blocker. He's lined up with a statue at QB and then a rookie. Its been a constant uphill battle, and he's juggling being the HR threat on offense with staying honest and doing the dirty work too - it isn't simple.
I think its reasonable to assume his pass blocking will grade out better if the team also improves. Rudolph should help, along with the growth of the OL.
Barkley hasn't yet ran behind even a marginal OL - its always been bad or awful. He's lined up with a TE who isn't a plus blocker. He's lined up with a statue at QB and then a rookie. Its been a constant uphill battle, and he's juggling being the HR threat on offense with staying honest and doing the dirty work too - it isn't simple.
I think its reasonable to assume his pass blocking will grade out better if the team also improves. Rudolph should help, along with the growth of the OL.
As far as hard yards, I see him get at least an extra three or four yards after seemingly being tackled on a lot of plays. You also see him near the goal line lower his shoulder and fire straight ahead like a missile. He's a smart player. He knows when to go down and when to go extra.
Are these hard yards? - ( New Window )
SB does not do what winning RBs do. He is not the best HB in the NFL - anyone posting that is just being a homer. Watch real top level HBs play, like Elliott and Derrick Henry, and see how they are invariably producing positive yardage. The real argument is whether SB is a Top 5 HB in the league. My opinion is probably but he is a young player who, despite the magic he sporadically produces, really needs to work on aspects of his game.
You mention Elliott - well, can you name the OL and TE's he's played with? Ever wonder what the 2 RB's would do if they switched teams?
you and Terps should start a new website
Then usually, in the next breath they talk about having to score points on offense. Barkley has contributed 23 TD's as a Giant.
23 TD's. If that doesn't help a team win, I'd love to hear the fucked-up logic behind such nonsense.
Then usually, in the next breath they talk about having to score points on offense. Barkley has contributed 23 TD's as a Giant.
23 TD's. If that doesn't help a team win, I'd love to hear the fucked-up logic behind such nonsense.
Then usually, in the next breath they talk about having to score points on offense. Barkley has contributed 23 TD's as a Giant.
23 TD's. If that doesn't help a team win, I'd love to hear the fucked-up logic behind such nonsense.
I think that you're touched...
Obviously depends on the rest of the roster in discussion but I think he'd pretty clearly be my top choice with Jaire Alexander probably #2. As much talk as there is re: Nelson I don't think guards have near that kind of impact on an individual game and a lot of his value (fairly so) is tied into the general shelf life and reliability of interior OL.
Really hope Barkley comes back healthy and gives them a few more years like his rookie year. He was really special.
And the Giants are never going to pick a guard in the top 10. It's not going to happen.
And the Giants are never going to pick a guard in the top 10. It's not going to happen.
The why do so many people want Slater?
The why do so many people want Slater?
So is "so many people?" Maybe the fans do, but NYG would not take a guard. If they view him as a tackle, that's a different story. But he's not going to be the pick if he's a guard in the NFL.
If he is healthy, he will have a good year. his 9 yard run vs the eagles was ridiculous.
I hope he comes back strong and improves his game.
Where there was a disparity was in the 4th quarter when the team was behind by 7 points, which isn't unexpected.
What metric actually shows that Barkley was used less in close games, or is this yet another abstract point to try and show that Barkley is ineffective to help win games?
Obviously depends on the rest of the roster in discussion but I think he'd pretty clearly be my top choice with Jaire Alexander probably #2. As much talk as there is re: Nelson I don't think guards have near that kind of impact on an individual game and a lot of his value (fairly so) is tied into the general shelf life and reliability of interior OL.
Really hope Barkley comes back healthy and gives them a few more years like his rookie year. He was really special.
Why not?
Call me an idiot, etc. but I believe a great player can have a huge impact from any position on the field. The games are won and lost in the trenches - we all know that. Pressure up the middle is the most disruptive to a QB. We know that. Yet great G's aren't worth top 10 picks? But shiny hood ornament skill players are? Just Offensive Tackles are important enough? It's ridiculous.
On the flip side - football is the ultimate team sport. No 1 individual is going to win games by himself. It's why the "what has Barkley gotten us in terms of W's/L's" is equally nauseating. You can't measure individual player acquisition in binary Wins/Losses. You can measure their effort level, attitude, production etc. But W's/L's falls on the organization as a whole.
Where there was a disparity was in the 4th quarter when the team was behind by 7 points, which isn't unexpected.
What metric actually shows that Barkley was used less in close games, or is this yet another abstract point to try and show that Barkley is ineffective to help win games?
We had a lot of close games last season. Maybe even the most in the league. And, after getting a look at him for 2 games, for the rest of the season they didn't use him in the 4th quarter even once.
Yep. The offensive line was so ugly in beginning of year guy is getting tackled by three players behind the line of scrimmage, but it’s Barkley’s fault for not getting north -south.
Our offensive line isn’t good, but they run block well and I’m excited as shit to see what SB looks like. Lot less whining from these clowns about getting north south Id imagine when he’s averaging 6 ypc.
Why not?
Call me an idiot, etc. but I believe a great player can have a huge impact from any position on the field. The games are won and lost in the trenches - we all know that. Pressure up the middle is the most disruptive to a QB. We know that. Yet great G's aren't worth top 10 picks? But shiny hood ornament skill players are? Just Offensive Tackles are important enough? It's ridiculous.
On the flip side - football is the ultimate team sport. No 1 individual is going to win games by himself. It's why the "what has Barkley gotten us in terms of W's/L's" is equally nauseating. You can't measure individual player acquisition in binary Wins/Losses. You can measure their effort level, attitude, production etc. But W's/L's falls on the organization as a whole.
It the supposed positional importance that paints people into a corner when it comes to 2018. Some that screamed that Barkley was a fireable offense because of poor positional value wanted Nelson - which is a similarly poor positional value.
I agree with you. You build a winning team by amassing as many good players as you can who can mesh. If a fantastic G is available. If a fantastic RB is available, select them. That's where the analytics impacts decisions, and not always for the good. But then again, you also have people complaining about the resources put into the defensive backfield, yet the analytics support that approach.
QB, OT, edge, WR, CB, S are the spots you want to draft in the top 12.
I'd much rather have a great player at the above positions vs a great guard
I hope he comes back strong and improves his game.
Thanks for the answer. I appreciate it, but I disagree.
It is not Barkley's job to see that DJ doesn't get sacked, that's on JG. (and all of the many pieces involved).
I also do not think that he need to get to the LOS and quicker.
As an example, look at the 2:15 mark on the video. Barkley's patience in allowing the RG to come off of his double on the 3tech and get to the MIKE turned a "Dirty-tough yard, 2yd gain," into a 15yd touchdown.
It was a player with great production, with great measurables and exceptional character.
Try to deny any of that.
That is not a fireable offense.
It happened because they failed to assess the roster correctly.
It happened.
It hasn't worked do far.
Here we are now though.
I could see it turn out well this year.
Let's watch and root for it together.
Or not...FFS.
Why not?
Call me an idiot, etc. but I believe a great player can have a huge impact from any position on the field. The games are won and lost in the trenches - we all know that. Pressure up the middle is the most disruptive to a QB. We know that. Yet great G's aren't worth top 10 picks? But shiny hood ornament skill players are? Just Offensive Tackles are important enough? It's ridiculous.
On the flip side - football is the ultimate team sport. No 1 individual is going to win games by himself. It's why the "what has Barkley gotten us in terms of W's/L's" is equally nauseating. You can't measure individual player acquisition in binary Wins/Losses. You can measure their effort level, attitude, production etc. But W's/L's falls on the organization as a whole.
You are certainly spot on with your point about the LOS across all positions. So I have grown to be perfectly fine with investing a high pick in any OL position.
I disagree with your second point. QBs absolutely determine the outcome of games more than any other position. Their ability to read defenses (pre and post) and execute the play (especially delivering a throw) are paramount to an outcome. Yes, it is a team game, but the QB isn't just 1/11th of the offense, another piece.
Posters can keep swimming against the current, but RBs just aren't as valuable as they used to be. You can find players who are 85-90% the player Barkley is but just as impactful to the team. Case in point is Nick Chubb from the '18 NFL draft. A second rounder but he's been just as impactful and cheaper. Browns got him for 4yrs/$7.4M. We have Barkley was 4yrs/$31M. I think that tells the story fairly well...no?
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"you don't pick a G in the top 10" logic.
Why not?
Call me an idiot, etc. but I believe a great player can have a huge impact from any position on the field. The games are won and lost in the trenches - we all know that. Pressure up the middle is the most disruptive to a QB. We know that. Yet great G's aren't worth top 10 picks? But shiny hood ornament skill players are? Just Offensive Tackles are important enough? It's ridiculous.
On the flip side - football is the ultimate team sport. No 1 individual is going to win games by himself. It's why the "what has Barkley gotten us in terms of W's/L's" is equally nauseating. You can't measure individual player acquisition in binary Wins/Losses. You can measure their effort level, attitude, production etc. But W's/L's falls on the organization as a whole.
You are certainly spot on with your point about the LOS across all positions. So I have grown to be perfectly fine with investing a high pick in any OL position.
I disagree with your second point. QBs absolutely determine the outcome of games more than any other position. Their ability to read defenses (pre and post) and execute the play (especially delivering a throw) are paramount to an outcome. Yes, it is a team game, but the QB isn't just 1/11th of the offense, another piece.
Posters can keep swimming against the current, but RBs just aren't as valuable as they used to be. You can find players who are 85-90% the player Barkley is but just as impactful to the team. Case in point is Nick Chubb from the '18 NFL draft. A second rounder but he's been just as impactful and cheaper. Browns got him for 4yrs/$7.4M. We have Barkley was 4yrs/$31M. I think that tells the story fairly well...no?
You should let it go brother.
It happened, stop letting the past continue to affect you. It is like you have an irrational need for your BBI to admit it was the wrong pick.
It was.
It's over.
He is a Giant.
For better or worse, he beloved one.
Get on the train and root for it to all work out, because my friend, you can't change a thing.
And Shurmur completely mismanaged him. He is a playmaker - not a blocker. Taking him out of games because he is a below average blocker is ridiculous. He is a three down playmaking machine. Hopefully he will be fully healthy in 2021 and Judge will weaponize his talent through scheme and sensible supporting personnel.
Even so, whether you agreed or disagreed with the pick, it's in the past and you would be very hard-pressed to say that he's not a good player. You'd be equally hard-pressed to say that the solitary pick doomed the franchise.
At the very worst, it's a pick that you personally did not like and, piqued the frustration you have the the team did not hire you to be its GM.
Barkley ran less in the 2nd halves of games and was incredibly ineffective as a receiver generating just 3.1 yards per pass targeted with a low pass catch ratio in situations where the Giants were trailing late in games (<4 minutes to go).
Barkley 2019 splits - ( New Window )
Barkley's ineffectiveness likely has nothing to do with how quickly he hits a hole.
Causation versus correlation...
Three years later and still not at all compelling...
Just want to make sure we're balanced in what we're seeing. But maybe I'm not qualified to view tape, and DM did at that time deserve a decent sized contract that he wound up not deserving after all.
There's probably some sort of lesson here about introducing evidence, but I dropped out of law school too soon to know for sure.
Three years later and still not at all compelling...
I think it is more that people who are convinced that Barkley was not a good choice, see it as their sworn mission to convince others that Barkley is not a good player.
Injury is the only thing keeping the selection from being a great choice...
...and any player can be a victim of injury.
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that Giants team picking Barkley at #2 was a good choice.
Three years later and still not at all compelling...
I think it is more that people who are convinced that Barkley was not a good choice, see it as their sworn mission to convince others that Barkley is not a good player.
So there isn't a sworn mission to convince others - by others - that Barkley wasn't a good pick?
Like this thread for instance...
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that Giants team picking Barkley at #2 was a good choice.
Three years later and still not at all compelling...
I think it is more that people who are convinced that Barkley was not a good choice, see it as their sworn mission to convince others that Barkley is not a good player.
Bill,
We spent the #2 overall pick on a terrific prospect who plays a position that tends to be prone to injury. And after three years, that prospect has played one full season, one injury-affected season, and one season lost almost entirely to injury.
The naysayers are right, as of now, albeit with a bullet. Barkley has enough ability and enough time to quiet any doubts. But the doubts are winning right now for the same reason they existed in the first place.
We could trade him for what today? Nothing. If he plays well in 2021 like I expect he will be resigned as much for business reasons as team reasons. Bottom line, this is a business.
I don't see us trading a player that made a triumphant return from injury. The only scenario I see them trading Barkley is that if we are such a shit show in 2021 DG is let go and we move on from Jones in 2022. In that scenario, I could see us trading Barkley for draft capital in an attempt to move up in 2022.
All of is dependent on the results of 2021.
Time to watch.
Many people on BBI think many of you are rooting for that.
Maybe not, but I have to tell you, it feels that way.
The wait and see crowd will do what they seemingly do best...wait and see.
And then when they see Barkley run for 125 yards in a certain game, they will have everything they need? Or if they don’t see that burst as often as he had, my guess is they will say, let’s wait and see how he looks in 2022 before extending.
The difference between some impatient posters and ridiculous posters are that, when the Giants are a good team, the impatient ones will have some humility and say hey you know what, this actually seems like it's working out.
The ridiculous posters will just find something else to bitch about with DG or some other facet of the team, and around and around we go.
The Leonard Williams trade is a perfect example of how some people on this site are just whiny fucking women, and will never be satisfied. Not only did the trade workout, but DG was able to sign him at a reasonable 3 year deal up until the point where we have to pay Jones. So all the bitching and moaning that posters did a) right after the trade happened b) after Williams' first 8 games and c) those few days during FA where Williams wasn't signed and it was "severely effecting our ability to sign free agents" amounted to absolutely nothing, because none of the things that these posters said actually came true, they just spent their days crying like a little girl about it because they have nothing better to do
Barkley just turned 24, he'll basically be playing his third healthy season at the start of this year. Let's see what he brings to the table as a part of this team moving forward before we say things like 'awful pick' or 'horrible move' or whatever the hell you want to say.
I remember 2018 and parts of 2019, we all knew that Barkley was probably the most talented running back in football, one of the game's most dynamic players. But guess what, the rest of the team absolutely sucked.
The wait and see crowd will do what they seemingly do best...wait and see.
And then when they see Barkley run for 125 yards in a certain game, they will have everything they need? Or if they don’t see that burst as often as he had, my guess is they will say, let’s wait and see how he looks in 2022 before extending.
Actually what people see or don't see regarding an extension means absolutely nothing. We aren't making that decision, Clownshoes.
If you think you have enough information one way or another now, then you should become a fortune teller. That way, you can still stay part of the Circus.
Barkley just turned 24, he'll basically be playing his third healthy season at the start of this year. Let's see what he brings to the table as a part of this team moving forward before we say things like 'awful pick' or 'horrible move' or whatever the hell you want to say.
I remember 2018 and parts of 2019, we all knew that Barkley was probably the most talented running back in football, one of the game's most dynamic players. But guess what, the rest of the team absolutely sucked.
Ryan, you're guilty of something in this post that is inadvertently dismissive of the reason why some were resistant to this pick in the first place.
When you say that Barkley is "playing his third healthy season" as though he should get a pass for the injuries, that's a fundamental flaw, IMO. One of the reasons why people are reticent to choose RBs so early in the draft is because that's a position that tends to suffer injuries more frequently than others.
If you want to make the case that Barkley is worth it in spite of the injuries, so be it - I think there's a valid case to be made. But if you try to ignore the fact that Barkley does have the sort of injury history already that confirms some of the pre-draft concerns, I think that starts to feel intentionally misleading.
Barkley is entering his fourth season. End. Full stop.
He's good enough that we should still be viewing his play from this point forward, and shouldn't need to pretend that his injuries haven't happened or that they aren't part of what makes RB investments risky.
Which is likely the only thing that Britt was pointing out.
Barkley is a stud, hopefully he's healthy.
There's no good reason to shit on Barkley, the FO or Britt in this thread.
Every conversation doesn't have to devolve into what the FO did or didn't do right. Some of the threads on BBI should be about Football.
Darnold has not proven to be a better pick and has been traded.
Rosen is a joke.
Those two point alone should make the majority of the Barkley naysayers shut up because those two are really who the masses wanted, but I'll go on.
Chubb is a nice player but is not on the level that gives me any buyer's remorse on Barkley.
For the people who love Quenton Nelson. I think you'll have to explain how picking a guard at 2 is ok but a RB at 2 is not.
The elephant in the BBI room is Lamar Jackson because of Go Terps. Credit to Terps for seeing he would become a very good player but I personally think Jackson is far more limited than his supporters would admit. We may have had marginally better regular seasons the last few years but with the surrounding cast we've had, probably not by much. We would still be sitting here wondering if we had a guy that could truly take a passing game and put it on his shoulders throughout the month of January and lead a team to a championship in a passing league.
Josh Allen is the big miss here and mostly everyone on BBI (at least that I remember reading at the time) should be in agreement that very few if any here, or in the media/analyst circles for that matter, felt that he would amount to much as an NFL starting QB.
Barkley is a fine player. Injuries have been the problem but I find it hard to blame anyone in the NFL for injuries. They are a part of the game.
So...it just feels like because it happened to OUR guy, we think its all doom and gloom
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In comment 15212723 Jimmy Googs said:
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that Giants team picking Barkley at #2 was a good choice.
Three years later and still not at all compelling...
I think it is more that people who are convinced that Barkley was not a good choice, see it as their sworn mission to convince others that Barkley is not a good player.
Bill,
We spent the #2 overall pick on a terrific prospect who plays a position that tends to be prone to injury. And after three years, that prospect has played one full season, one injury-affected season, and one season lost almost entirely to injury.
The naysayers are right, as of now, albeit with a bullet. Barkley has enough ability and enough time to quiet any doubts. But the doubts are winning right now for the same reason they existed in the first place.
I would say that the pick is a business-decision that you can debate one way or the other; the other is a player evaluation which they've construed to be equivalent to the business decision. I'd also say that he is a good player, regardless of whether he is injured and can play or not. He might be good as an inherent quality but not productive.
So...it just feels like because it happened to OUR guy, we think its all doom and gloom
Some guys suffer injuries in spite of a lack of risk at their position; some guys suffer injuries that are in line with the risk that we know about their position.
You're right that a lot of top draft picks have suffered ACL injuries. The only solution to that is to not draft at the top of the draft - that seems silly, because it's pretty clear that the correlation is coincidental.
But RBs in general suffer injuries more than other positions. That isn't a coincidence at this point; we have enough data to confirm that the position does lend itself to injury more than others.
Maybe Barkley's injury falls into the fluke coincidence that other top draft picks do. But he's a RB, so he also falls into that data point as well.
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want to screw around with tagging options...whatever. But no need to extend longer term, for what purpose really?
The wait and see crowd will do what they seemingly do best...wait and see.
And then when they see Barkley run for 125 yards in a certain game, they will have everything they need? Or if they don’t see that burst as often as he had, my guess is they will say, let’s wait and see how he looks in 2022 before extending.
Actually what people see or don't see regarding an extension means absolutely nothing. We aren't making that decision, Clownshoes.
If you think you have enough information one way or another now, then you should become a fortune teller. That way, you can still stay part of the Circus.
My post was for gratefulhead who mentioned extension above in his post.
You're just
Your sole purpose on the site is to find a bw, Terps or post of mine (among a handful of others) and look to call names which really just makes you comic relief on the site with no opinions shared yourself (if you had one).
But happy to go at it with you if you like as you have seemed to found some new confidence lately with your frequent posting. Wonder why that is...?
But it only winds up with you looking for your escape hatch eventually.
You can't sit there one day saying I post all the time and then the next day wonder why I'm frequently posting, can you??
Actually you can - because it is the trolling thing you rely on. Acting as if I'm not posting much is a really strange tactic. It's the way of a Clown.
Many people on BBI think many of you are rooting for that.
Maybe not, but I have to tell you, it feels that way.
I haven't commented on '21 and where I think it could end up. The team isn't a finished product yet with the draft pending and another wave of potential free agents. I have harped on this being a critical year for Jones and how he really has to finally deliver something convincing to prove he's not trending to game manager status.
But I think those on the other side of the aisle - the Bobby McFerrins: don't worry, be happy contingent - confuse expecting an outcome, based on analyzing the factors, with rooting for an outcome.
I really only wonder why you get brave every so often and look to bully. It hasn’t gone well despite the efforts you put into it.
Again, the escape hatch is within site ...
Comic relief
Being a Real Madrid fan, my nominee is Eden Hazard. World class dribbling skills but they are not used to set up scores or offensive plays. The coach doesn't play him. I bet the NBA fans here can name plenty of players who put up highlight reels and never seem to help their teams. I'm not saying Saquon is necessarily like that, but the precedent exists: wow-factor talented players who aren't winners.
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Of what I just wrote. It all blows up if we are a shit show in 2021.
Many people on BBI think many of you are rooting for that.
Maybe not, but I have to tell you, it feels that way.
I haven't commented on '21 and where I think it could end up. The team isn't a finished product yet with the draft pending and another wave of potential free agents. I have harped on this being a critical year for Jones and how he really has to finally deliver something convincing to prove he's not trending to game manager status.
But I think those on the other side of the aisle - the Bobby McFerrins: don't worry, be happy contingent - confuse expecting an outcome, based on analyzing the factors, with rooting for an outcome.
Furious.
I came here and said so. 15 and 33 is stupid bad. Morons said it wasn't and I ignored the morons. I don't argue with the willfully ignorant. I said my piece and accepted the new paradigm that DG is still here.
The signing makes sense to me, even Booker. I think Andersen and Odenigbo are under the radar monster signings. I think Ross was brilliant to get. He wont start but if we have to sub him in, they will have to honor his speed.
Of all the FA's, I wanted Golloday. I thought he was the player that fit the best with Jones. I want Hunter, Rudolph is a perfect substitute. So from my perspective the coach and GM hit it out of the park. I am not an expert and accept anyone that does not agree. That's cool.
I am an excited Giant fan, I guess, I just want that for you.
I agree with this.
I think the baton has already been passed, though I expect that Gettleman will remain in a significant role with the team, as sort of a consigliere, whether that's retaining the GM title or with some sort of senior executive title that formalizes O'Brien's standing. Either way, I think O'Brien is already in the co-pilot's chair already, at least.
And whatever the power structure is, now and going forward, it certainly appears to be working well this offseason.
I just can't buy it. I want to, but that would be a major shift with how the Maras have done business.
It's not like Judge was this established HC coach with a glowing resume. This is his first rodeo EVER as the HC. I just can't imagine that being enough for Mara to change the power dynamic. I mean, at the end of the day, we were still 6-10...another double digit loss season.
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(from a Lions divisional rival) is that Judge and O'Brien are running the show. Gettleman is a figurehead at this point.
I agree with this.
I think the baton has already been passed, though I expect that Gettleman will remain in a significant role with the team, as sort of a consigliere, whether that's retaining the GM title or with some sort of senior executive title that formalizes O'Brien's standing. Either way, I think O'Brien is already in the co-pilot's chair already, at least.
And whatever the power structure is, now and going forward, it certainly appears to be working well this offseason.
If the baton has passed, then only good things can come from it. Just not so certain yet.
The improvement in free agent results last year and “some” of the adds this year do lead to believe in a different mindset. Thanks the lord...
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and be just as useless as the previous Barkley thread/s. Going to bow out now since i've read this story 1,000x before. Enjoy the day fellas.
Nailed it.
If you’re looking for a nickname...let’s go with Peanut Gallery
I think you get why...
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(from a Lions divisional rival) is that Judge and O'Brien are running the show. Gettleman is a figurehead at this point.
I just can't buy it. I want to, but that would be a major shift with how the Maras have done business.
It's not like Judge was this established HC coach with a glowing resume. This is his first rodeo EVER as the HC. I just can't imagine that being enough for Mara to change the power dynamic. I mean, at the end of the day, we were still 6-10...another double digit loss season.
That's odd coming from a guy who tries to make the argument that Barkley doesn't do things to help a team win. Again - he's scored 23 TD's. Aren't scoring points a critical part of helping a team??
If your putting out takes like that, you probably shouldn't be telling others to take a break.
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(from a Lions divisional rival) is that Judge and O'Brien are running the show. Gettleman is a figurehead at this point.
I agree with this.
I think the baton has already been passed, though I expect that Gettleman will remain in a significant role with the team, as sort of a consigliere, whether that's retaining the GM title or with some sort of senior executive title that formalizes O'Brien's standing. Either way, I think O'Brien is already in the co-pilot's chair already, at least.
And whatever the power structure is, now and going forward, it certainly appears to be working well this offseason.
Is our situation really all that different than that of any other strong coach with a plan on how he wants to team to look? is DG any more or less a figurehead than Belicek's GM, Rhule's GM, Kingsbury's GM, Shanahan's GM, etc?
But let's adjust for the injury and say he's at about a 10 per season rate.
That's good. But other backs could get very close to that at a cheaper rate than 4yrs/$31M+.
Nick Chubb, for example, from the same 2018 class, has 30 TDs/3 years at a pay rate of 4yrs/$7m.
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In comment 15212941 cosmicj said:
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(from a Lions divisional rival) is that Judge and O'Brien are running the show. Gettleman is a figurehead at this point.
I agree with this.
I think the baton has already been passed, though I expect that Gettleman will remain in a significant role with the team, as sort of a consigliere, whether that's retaining the GM title or with some sort of senior executive title that formalizes O'Brien's standing. Either way, I think O'Brien is already in the co-pilot's chair already, at least.
And whatever the power structure is, now and going forward, it certainly appears to be working well this offseason.
Is our situation really all that different than that of any other strong coach with a plan on how he wants to team to look? is DG any more or less a figurehead than Belicek's GM, Rhule's GM, Kingsbury's GM, Shanahan's GM, etc?
If our current situation is we have a strong coach who actually has a plan then Gettleman can serve coffee in the building for all I care.
Just answer questions if asked and stay out of the way...
I just can't buy it. I want to, but that would be a major shift with how the Maras have done business.
It's not like Judge was this established HC coach with a glowing resume. This is his first rodeo EVER as the HC. I just can't imagine that being enough for Mara to change the power dynamic. I mean, at the end of the day, we were still 6-10...another double digit loss season.
I was expecting 6-10. The defense and offense surprised me. maybe the power structure didn't change. Maybe DG has always included the coach in player decisions? Shurmur wanted SB? Possible? Could it be that simple? Judge had a vision and Shurmur didn't?
It may be as simple as what Mara has proclaimed - Judge and DG work "well together".
Perhaps the message there is Shurmur and DG didn't and maybe Gettleman made decisions Shurmur didn't agree with...?
Whatever the case, I'm sticking firm that Mara isn't going to hand the keys over to a first time ever HC. Belichick - maybe/yes.
The only thing making "not for long" the most ridiculous statement re: Barkley is injury.
Keep a TE in to block and allow Barkley to run routes.
Not for long...
...GTFOuttaher
X1000.
Everytime Barkley is asked to block is a play we are not maximizing our chances and is bad coaching. Get him out running routes and put pressure on the defense.
So how many TD's does a replacement player score? Gallman had 6TD's last season.
Everytime Barkley is asked to block is a play we are not maximizing our chances and is bad coaching. Get him out running routes and put pressure on the defense.
I'm buying this. I'd would much rather SB be used as a decoy rather than a blocker. The blocking challenges don't bother me as much as others. I see the point, but don't expect him to be Walter Payton. It's really not how SB is wound...
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and be just as useless as the previous Barkley thread/s. Going to bow out now since i've read this story 1,000x before. Enjoy the day fellas.
Nailed it.
I love this. All good decisions are made by Judge. The bad ones by DG. Like anyone on this board knows who is making the decisions.
But let's adjust for the injury and say he's at about a 10 per season rate.
That's good. But other backs could get very close to that at a cheaper rate than 4yrs/$31M+.
Nick Chubb, for example, from the same 2018 class, has 30 TDs/3 years at a pay rate of 4yrs/$7m.
You could also just look at the stats. 15 TD's in his rookie year. 8TD's his second year. 2000 yards from scrimmage his rookie year 1,430 his second year.
If that's replacement back quality, you have a long way to go to prove that, even if you try to minimize the TD numbers over 3 seasons, like you did for some reason
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In comment 15212387 UConn4523 said:
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and be just as useless as the previous Barkley thread/s. Going to bow out now since i've read this story 1,000x before. Enjoy the day fellas.
Nailed it.
I love this. All good decisions are made by Judge. The bad ones by DG. Like anyone on this board knows who is making the decisions.
Judge made the best decision we have seen in a while. He took the job to see if he could help.
It's the Giants, so you know as well as I do that this could very well be one of those devastating injuries where the player is never the same. It's April and the guy is barely able to run.
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.
You should. He should not have been hired as our head coach, but he is a skilled offensive coach who had repeatedly been hired by expert NFL coaches. The fact that Shurmur was trying to save his job in 2019 and one if his moves was to de emphasize SB as close games neared their conclusion should be a warning sign.
lol really. Confirmation bias says hello.
It's the Giants, so you know as well as I do that this could very well be one of those devastating injuries where the player is never the same. It's April and the guy is barely able to run.
If it was anything beyond “normal” we would have heard about it, I’m certain of it..
Plus he tore his meniscus too. I will stick to my belief that this was not an ordinary ACL. I need to be prepared for the worst.
Now - all of those things can be recovered from. But it was at least a 3-pronged injury.