I think it was Ernie A. who coined the phrase, only he was referencing Pass Rushers.
The answer is "no" you can never have too many Wide Receivers, but I think you can reach a point where you getting overkill and there have to be better places to spend resources. And if there's always room for a pass rusher to splash his talent, there's only one ball on offense.
And I'm going to make a case that we're about at that point and why I hope they don't go with another WR.
1. This isn't really consistent with the argument, but I don't like any of the Wides not named Chase (and, regrettably, Chase reminds me just a bit of the hoopola awarded to Sammy Watkins in 2014 - which is the last time we selected from a similar slot). Waddle didn't play last year { a big negative IMHO), didn't participate in workouts and scares the heck out of me from the no.11 spot. Ditto with the marvelously skilled Smith, 167 lbs(is the rumor) and remarkably spindly legs don't necessary spell disaster but the potentials there.
But that's cheating and not addressing the main point.
I think Barclay and EE have a lot of WR in their field stretching games. I expect good years from both, and, if so, that effectively reduces the need for an additional WR.
Rudolph is going to need the ball.
Pettis and John Ross bring potential and speed, blue blazing speed, and are going to need reps.
Darius Slayton of being dismissed here because he didn't have a good year. He started off looking fine against Chi., he got hurt afterwards and played in spite of it. The kid is 6-1, he's got under 4.4 speed, he shows a work ethic, intelligence and a rapport with Jones. I think he's going to have A fine year and be helped simply by the talent around him.
Effectively the Giants have added: Saquon Barkley, Petis, Kyle Rudolph, John Ross and Kenny Golladay. It is reasonable if arguable that EE and Darius Slayton will have better years. And that still leaves David Sills and C.J. Board along with the experienced and very competent Shepard.
Again, I'm not saying that a great receiver wouldn't help, only that I like the augmented crew, and, injuries notwithstanding, they have a lot of weapon, nice balance and a unit they can go to war with.
And there's still only one ball and a finite no. of reps available.
The conventional wisdom says: by filling the positions of need in FA, they've freed themselves to use the draft to bring home the BPA. I get it, makes sense, but it can also be turned in an odd way into a logical counterpoint: I think that a superb free agency period that filled so many heretofor weak spots can also free the draft to fill the remaining weak spot...the Offensive line.
But no WR please... don't like their bust potential (even Chase didn't play last year) and don't feel a compelling need.
I always feel the need to qualify, I'm not an expert and the views presented here are only idle ramblings from a casual fan.
He finished with 28 receptions for 591 yrs (21.1 yrd avg) and 4 TDs.
You don't need to worry about his health. The Giants don't play a game that counts for another 5 months and if they decide to draft Waddle it means that they've checked him out and he's healthy.
The answer is "no" you can never have too many Wide Receivers, but I think you can reach a point where you getting overkill and there have to be better places to spend resources. And if there's always room for a pass rusher to splash his talent, there's only one ball on offense.
And I'm going to make a case that we're about at that point and why I hope they don't go with another WR.
1. This isn't really consistent with the argument, but I don't like any of the Wides not named Chase (and, regrettably, Chase reminds me just a bit of the hoopola awarded to Sammy Watkins in 2014 - which is the last time we selected from a similar slot). Waddle didn't play last year { a big negative IMHO), didn't participate in workouts and scares the heck out of me from the no.11 spot.
Ditto with the marvelously skilled Smith, 167 lbs(is the rumor) and remarkably spindly legs don't necessary spell disaster but the potentials there.
But that's cheating and not addressing the main point.
I think Barclay and EE have a lot of WR in their field stretching games. I expect good years from both, and, if so, that effectively reduces the need for an additional WR.
Rudolph is going to need the ball.
Pettis and John Ross bring potential and speed, blue blazing speed, and are going to need reps.
Darius Slayton of being dismissed here because he didn't have a good year. He started off looking fine against Chi., he got hurt afterwards and played in spite of it. The kid is 6-1, he's got under 4.4 speed, he shows a work ethic, intelligence and a rapport with Jones. I think he's going to have A fine year and be helped simply by the talent around him.
Effectively the Giants have added: Saquon Barkley, Petis, Kyle Rudolph, John Ross and Kenny Golladay. It is reasonable if arguable that EE and Darius Slayton will have better years. And that still leaves David Sills and C.J. Board along with the experienced and very competent Shepard.
Again, I'm not saying that a great receiver wouldn't help, only that I like the augmented crew, and, injuries notwithstanding, they have a lot of weapon, nice balance and a unit they can go to war with.
And there's still only one ball and a finite no. of reps available.
The conventional wisdom says: by filling the positions of need in FA, they've freed themselves to use the draft to bring home the BPA. I get it, makes sense, but it can also be turned in an odd way into a logical counterpoint: I think that a superb free agency period that filled so many heretofor weak spots can also free the draft to fill the remaining weak spot...the Offensive line.
But no WR please... don't like their bust potential (even Chase didn't play last year) and don't feel a compelling need.
I always feel the need to qualify, I'm not an expert and the views presented here are only idle ramblings from a casual fan.
You're counting on a lot of unhealthy players staying healthy in your summary (Shepard, Barkley, EE, Rudolph...)
They should take at least 1 at some point.
Look at it this way. Yes, we can throw 6 bodies out there now. But...last year, we had the worst receiving corps in the league. Now we have Golladay. But, turn one ankle or tweak a hamstring and take away Golladay and what do we have? The worst receiving corps in the league.
The WR position is a strength of this draft. So drafting to its strength doesn’t alway mean taking a WR in the 1st round, if anything it means finding a strong player in later rounds. Round 2 & 3 there will be good receivers, allowing NYG to go with a more pressing need in round 1.
How improved is Slayton, Sheppard and Ross over Slayton Sheppard and Tate? Almost a wash and we had horrid WR play last year even when those 3 hit the field together.
Slayton and Sheppard should look better with Golladay on the feild and each of them slotting down a peg. Ross and Pettis have some explosiveness but a sub package type guys.
We need another piece at WR. Its not a top need but it could be a top value if 1 of the 4 Pass Catchers is available at 11. If not there should be a pick on day 2.
You can't rest on laurels when the average career is four seasons long. You've got to feed the pipeline, and this WR corps as is is one injury to KG away from being dead in the water.
The 2021 draft isn't only about filling holes for the 2021 season. Fans need to get away from this hole in the ground and broaden their thought process.
If the OL improves in run blocking and the Giants are in 2nd 5/6 I think we see Jones take a meaningful step. The issue the Giants have had for almost a decade is being in 2nd and 9-11 yards the majority of times. Consistently do this and Jones, the RB's and WR's will all look better.
If Jones is the goods then over time he will develop to be able to better handle tougher down and distance scenarios. Most younger QB's need help till they put it all together and even then they need some balance imo.
NO you cant.
Why is it that EVERY other team can have MULTIPLE weapons on offense to stress a defense and make it harder to cover them but when the Giants replace Golden Tate with Kenny Golladay and upgrade at TE with Rudolph who will probably beat out one of Smith or Toilolo..
Giants fans go WHOA we have enough.. we dont want overload.. God forbid we bring in another WR because we have CJ Board waiting in the wings..
Saints can have multiple weapons. Chiefs can assemble a friggin VOLTRON of weapons.. and we envy them... but we get ONE guy... who REPLACES another guy.. and Giants fans go...
Oh thats enough dont get anymore..
Asinine.
If Giants can grab an impact receiving target at #11, then he will likely be the pick.
NO you cant.
Why is it that EVERY other team can have MULTIPLE weapons on offense to stress a defense and make it harder to cover them but when the Giants replace Golden Tate with Kenny Golladay and upgrade at TE with Rudolph who will probably beat out one of Smith or Toilolo..
Giants fans go WHOA we have enough.. we dont want overload.. God forbid we bring in another WR because we have CJ Board waiting in the wings..
Saints can have multiple weapons. Chiefs can assemble a friggin VOLTRON of weapons.. and we envy them... but we get ONE guy... who REPLACES another guy.. and Giants fans go...
Oh thats enough dont get anymore..
Asinine.
Cj board waoting on the wings? They have Golladay, Shepoard, Slayton, pettis and john ross. How many wr can you line up? Barkley led the team with receptions his rookie year, defense have to account to him, he isnt your average rb. If you dont pay attention to barkley giants will troll you like they fid with OBJ throws TDs to a wide open barkley. Giants are better off getting another stud RB, then they can line up barkley and another rb anywhere and really keep defenses guessing
Sorry! Not my fault.
Look at it this way. Yes, we can throw 6 bodies out there now. But...last year, we had the worst receiving corps in the league. Now we have Golladay. But, turn one ankle or tweak a hamstring and take away Golladay and what do we have? The worst receiving corps in the league.
This. They need another high end receiver. We’re paying a good amount for KG and Shepard so this should come from the first round or two of the draft. Keep in mind Shepard has been super injury prone including concussions. He could be a cap casualty next year.
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We have Golladay and we have a decent slot. Slayton hasn't proven to be consistent, versatile, or that he can reliably get separation. He's a project. The rest are dregs.
Look at it this way. Yes, we can throw 6 bodies out there now. But...last year, we had the worst receiving corps in the league. Now we have Golladay. But, turn one ankle or tweak a hamstring and take away Golladay and what do we have? The worst receiving corps in the league.
This. They need another high end receiver. We’re paying a good amount for KG and Shepard so this should come from the first round or two of the draft. Keep in mind Shepard has been super injury prone including concussions. He could be a cap casualty next year.
I'm hoping for an elite defender in RD1 but agree that WR is still a position in need of talent.
Quote:
Its a Cruz and Nicks game.. make them go to Pascoe. Make them go to Manningham...
NO you cant.
Why is it that EVERY other team can have MULTIPLE weapons on offense to stress a defense and make it harder to cover them but when the Giants replace Golden Tate with Kenny Golladay and upgrade at TE with Rudolph who will probably beat out one of Smith or Toilolo..
Giants fans go WHOA we have enough.. we dont want overload.. God forbid we bring in another WR because we have CJ Board waiting in the wings..
Saints can have multiple weapons. Chiefs can assemble a friggin VOLTRON of weapons.. and we envy them... but we get ONE guy... who REPLACES another guy.. and Giants fans go...
Oh thats enough dont get anymore..
Asinine.
Cj board waoting on the wings? They have Golladay, Shepoard, Slayton, pettis and john ross. How many wr can you line up? Barkley led the team with receptions his rookie year, defense have to account to him, he isnt your average rb. If you dont pay attention to barkley giants will troll you like they fid with OBJ throws TDs to a wide open barkley. Giants are better off getting another stud RB, then they can line up barkley and another rb anywhere and really keep defenses guessing
ok a few things...
1) Pettis and John Ross? John Ross is on a ONE year deal and he hasnt done much since being drafted for being fast. Pettis hasnt done much either. The Giants should pass on another top receiver or target because of either of these guys.
2) Barkely hasnt been utilized this was since his first year. Some of that is because of injury. Some of that is because of a change in coaching. Shurmur was very good at finding ways to get Barkley the ball in year one. They need to go back to that. However Barkley is coming back from a torn ACL so we dont know what we are getting back yet.
3) Shep has gotten hurt the last few years and has had several concussions. Drafting a WR isnt just about next year. Its about the LONG term as well. A few years down the line will Shep be worth the contract he is getting now? You need to insulate yourself from that issue.
4) And again.. OTHER teams have MULTIPLE weapons.. and we WISH we were those teams.. now that the Giants are trying to catch up to the rest of the NFL.. Giants fans still want to stay in a poverty mentality of.. we have enough.. we dont need more..
then ONE guy gets hurt.. and we are lacking again...
2016: 16 games
2017: 11 games
2018: 16 games
2019: 10 games
2020: 12 games
Outside of his rookie year and 2018 he is missing an average of 5 games a season. His yardage high for a season was 2018 with 872 yards and he averages about 700 per season over his career. These stats and games played don’t line up with a $10M AAV contract. If KG misses any time this is our default #1 receiver.
Shepard and Slayton are fine as complimentary pieces, but it would be in the teams best interest to line up someone more explosive and reliable on the opposite side of KG.
I don't think Shep is a good value at $10M but if he's the slot, he's ok there. In my mind I wanted Waddle to replace Shep, but with Shep's contract that doesn't make sense.
I still hope they take someone like Moore later in the draft.
Yup.
Now we're talking.
Now we're talking.
Good strategy. Plenty of Guard depth in rounds 2-4 to supplement what we currently have.
When you have this much risk and variability, it's good to bring in as many options as possible, assuming some percentage, on average, will hit and some will fail. It's the same reason why I'd be happy with o-line in the first. There might be other positions where we could use depth, but these two position groups (exploding QB) have the most unknowns
2. Shep- has missed 10 games the last 2 years.
3. Slayton- nice player, great value for a 5th rounder which is why we like him so much. But he isn't a #1 and lacks consistency.
Ross/Pettis are both flyers at this point. Neither has done much in the NFL but are 1 snap away from being essentially a starter (in 11 personnel at least).
Since the draft is about more than just 2021, we also have to remember that only the top 3 are under contract after this season- and Shep has a history of concussions. His contract also points towards a potential cap casualty next off season if he has a down year or can't stay on the field. Plus Engram, another piece of the passing game, is likely gone in 2022.
The point is also made that if Kenny G. Gets hurt we go back to being the worst receiving Corps in football. I don't believe it. Saquon Barkley and Kyle Rudolph are big additions. Evan e and Darius Slayton should be much better next year. Ross and Pettis bring speed that was lacking. The offensive line will almost certainly be better and that will help the passing a game. Kenny G's loss would unquestionably hurt, but the idea is that we would return to last year's level seems very wrong.
And both waddle & Smith have downsides and low basements. They could have Brilliant careers, but 167 lb is not a safe investment. THe comparison to Jerry Rice often made here is wrong on several levels. Rice was durable, these guys might be durable but as of this writing there are significant questions.
"Safe" is important, gamble's and high potential high risk are worthwhile, but not with the 11th pick. You need to find safe AND great potential when you're drafting that high.
Back to your OP, the Giants simply need more WRs...
I also agree that WR is a "like to have" moreso than a "gotta have."
I also agree that we have players that will come to camp and improve. Coaching (teaching) with a young group produces results, especially if the locker room supports growth and a strong team first mentality.
But I would be thrilled with either of the (2) Bama receivers.
I'd also love Parsons, Surtain, Collins or a trade down as well.
The point is also made that if Kenny G. Gets hurt we go back to being the worst receiving Corps in football. I don't believe it. Saquon Barkley and Kyle Rudolph are big additions. Evan e and Darius Slayton should be much better next year. Ross and Pettis bring speed that was lacking. The offensive line will almost certainly be better and that will help the passing a game. Kenny G's loss would unquestionably hurt, but the idea is that we would return to last year's level seems very wrong.
And both waddle & Smith have downsides and low basements. They could have Brilliant careers, but 167 lb is not a safe investment. THe comparison to Jerry Rice often made here is wrong on several levels. Rice was durable, these guys might be durable but as of this writing there are significant questions.
"Safe" is important, gamble's and high potential high risk are worthwhile, but not with the 11th pick. You need to find safe AND great potential when you're drafting that high.
Yeah Im pretty sure Dallas not contending had a lot more do do with Dak Prescott being out and their OL being a mess, than it did getting ONE defensive player in the first round.
Your putting a lot of weight on two guys who are fast who have done little next to NOTHING in their NFL careeers.
If the Giants have a chance to draft Waddle or Smith and they are the highest rated players on the board.. you draft them. Period.
the NFL plays 11 personnel about 50% of the time. thats the league average.. 3 WR sets are common. One injury and the personnel set that is the most common in the NFL is now less effective.
And again.. the draft isnt about the NEXT year.. Its about all the years after that.. Shep could get hurt again. Will Slayton get better? who knows..
One year prove it deal Ross? If he proves it are you going to pay him next year.. with several other players needing new deals? or do you think he leaves for a better deal?
Pettis? really..
yeah if Waddle or Smith is there no one on this team is going to make the Giants say..
Yeah we are perfectly ok with what we have..
If anything they take another player they have rated higher at that spot or they trade down.. but they arent going to forego a WR because the replaced Golden Tate with a better player.. and Rudolph pushes Toilolo (sp) off the team
It's never been that they wouldn't add strength to the team. It's been about the potential 4 bust through injury and an alternative use of finite resources.
Is Slater safer, is the need at offensive line greater?
I categorically don't want ( at least not when there's so many viable and safer alternatives) Waddle. Not coming off an injury, not coming off an unproductive year and missing workouts. And 167 lb, scares me too. I don't care about toughness and Route running, is a built-in liability.
You build a fair case about the potential for disaster among the receiving core. But you never mentioned the addition of Berkeley and Rudolph. Or the reasonably Fair anticipated Improvement with Darius and Evan. And you never talk about a replacement at Right Guard or what happens if Pettis isn't what we hope.
So your argument is good it's just narrow and somewhat out of context and incomplete
It's never been that they wouldn't add strength to the team. It's been about the potential 4 bust through injury and an alternative use of finite resources.
Is Slater safer, is the need at offensive line greater?
I categorically don't want ( at least not when there's so many viable and safer alternatives) Waddle. Not coming off an injury, not coming off an unproductive year and missing workouts. And 167 lb, scares me too. I don't care about toughness and Route running, is a built-in liability.
You build a fair case about the potential for disaster among the receiving core. But you never mentioned the addition of Berkeley and Rudolph. Or the reasonably Fair anticipated Improvement with Darius and Evan. And you never talk about a replacement at Right Guard or what happens if Pettis isn't what we hope.
So your argument is good it's just narrow and somewhat out of context and incomplete
Wrong on several levels. Stop digging.