SI.com: Giants Draft: Making the Case for Offensive Line@11

"Let's look at the offensive line and where it stands. Andre Thomas is set at left tackle. The presumption is that Shane Lemieux and Will Hernandez will slug it out for the starting left guard spot, and the "loser" of that competition will move to right guard. Nick Gates is set at center, and Matt Peart is penciled in at the right guard spot, assuming he doesn't lose the job to Nate Solder (who last played right tackle in the regular season as a rookie)."

Andre? Peart is at right guard too? Who's in charge of proofreading over there...

An OG who can be a fixture for 10 years with the ability to move outside if necessary, sits quite well with me. As Polian and Brandt have said too often, if you have aconviction on a guy, you pull the trigger..

to bring in a guy to add competition for a spot.

fell in love with the surroundings and decided to change his name (?)

In comment 15214051 Bill L said:

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to bring in a guy to add competition for a spot.

They won't be transformative at all with a line like last season. It won't matter who the receivers are.

Playmaker (D or O) in the first. ER/LB/CB/WR/TE Please god.

In comment 15214073 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 15214051 Bill L said: Quote: to bring in a guy to add competition for a spot. They won't be transformative at all with a line like last season. It won't matter who the receivers are.

Then if that's your priority, for the love of God, move to the twenties and get some picks.

I must say...

We need to improve the line but there will be potential elite game changers available at 11 and every one of our options make a big improvement to that position group. You don’t pass on that to draft a guard unless it is the best prospect on the planet. There are plenty of other guards in later rounds. We need someone who is a threat on every snap. I really like several of the best layers that are likely to be around. Waddle wasn’t my first choice but I’m warming up to how dangerous he is with the ball in his hands.

And a Red Sox fan also, if I recall correctly, which shows he's clearly very intelligent....

In comment 15214088 adamg said:

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I must say...

Big pass catching TE we have our eye on but projected to go top 10.

OT possible for us but arms are short, projected to guard.

Slightly undersized but explosive WR expected to be available for us.


If it really is 2014 then Gettleman please, please, please take the undersized defensive tackle who is a match up nightmare.

In comment 15214113 Bob from Massachusetts said:

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And a Red Sox fan also, if I recall correctly, which shows he's clearly very intelligent.... In comment 15214088 adamg said: Quote: I must say...

Eh, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. We've all got our foibles.

anyway. So he may well be perfect...

But I'm just not feeling Slater at #11, not for the Giants. I get the sense that the Giants would like to get a skill player there - WR or impact defender - and look for OL's later on. Just a gut feeling.

In comment 15214088 adamg said:

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I must say...

Bill2 for my money

simply because there is about a 100% chance one or two linemen will go down with injuries. Our depth is made up of castoffs and has-beens.

We need young blood who can spell the starters as well as take over on day one after the first broken leg or ACL tear and it will happen as well as sudden Covid lockdown or a player just being sick. Look what happened to KC once their starting O-Line started piling up injuries.

We really need to focus on shoring up the line and grooming youngsters for solid depth. Keep Jones upright and healthy and we have a shot at being good

In comment 15214111 CV36 said:

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We need to improve the line but there will be potential elite game changers available at 11 and every one of our options make a big improvement to that position group. You don’t pass on that to draft a guard unless it is the best prospect on the planet. There are plenty of other guards in later rounds. We need someone who is a threat on every snap. I really like several of the best layers that are likely to be around. Waddle wasn’t my first choice but I’m warming up to how dangerous he is with the ball in his hands.

IDk Zack Martin would’ve been a better pick then ODELL. This is basically the same scenario. Also this draft is real deep in WRs

In comment 15214212 cokeduplt said:

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In comment 15214111 CV36 said: Quote: We need to improve the line but there will be potential elite game changers available at 11 and every one of our options make a big improvement to that position group. You don’t pass on that to draft a guard unless it is the best prospect on the planet. There are plenty of other guards in later rounds. We need someone who is a threat on every snap. I really like several of the best layers that are likely to be around. Waddle wasn’t my first choice but I’m warming up to how dangerous he is with the ball in his hands. IDk Zack Martin would’ve been a better pick then ODELL. This is basically the same scenario. Also this draft is real deep in WRs

Aaron Donald should've been the pick. :)

Anyway, with only six picks this year (barring any trade down or players traded for picks), at best the Giants might draft two O-Line prospects, and if they're lucky, they might be able to find one that can start from day one. But at some point you have to be able to trust some of the guys you have, and also trust your coaches to make the most of whomever they have.

both Thomas and Peart working out as bookends, that's just how things go with NFL prospects. Slater all but ensures that Daniel Jones has his bookends for the next decade. If Thomas and Peart work out? Great, Slater slides in at RG where he also has tremendous upside, filling a huge immediate and longterm need as well. Will Hernandez was benched last year and is in the last year of his contract, Shane Lemiuex was OK for a rookie 5th rounder but was awful if we're not grading on a curve. Slater checks both boxes for the Giants and should be on their radar if they like him as a player. I don't really get the sense that he is from the info here and elsewhere. I'm a little worried that it has more to do with them being overly confident in their young guys than Slater's potential. We've seen this movie a couple of times so I'm a little concerned about that.

I'd probably go with Slater personally unless a Chase or Pitts somehow falls but I doubt that happens. Having said that, it's not like the Bama WRs are guys to throw a fit about getting instead. I just think Slater is the smarter play if he's as good as the consensus and some pretty sharp evaluators feel he is.

In comment 15214286 AcesUp said:

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both Thomas and Peart working out as bookends, that's just how things go with NFL prospects. Slater all but ensures that Daniel Jones has his bookends for the next decade. If Thomas and Peart work out? Great, Slater slides in at RG where he also has tremendous upside, filling a huge immediate and longterm need as well. Will Hernandez was benched last year and is in the last year of his contract, Shane Lemiuex was OK for a rookie 5th rounder but was awful if we're not grading on a curve. Slater checks both boxes for the Giants and should be on their radar if they like him as a player. I don't really get the sense that he is from the info here and elsewhere. I'm a little worried that it has more to do with them being overly confident in their young guys than Slater's potential. We've seen this movie a couple of times so I'm a little concerned about that. I'd probably go with Slater personally unless a Chase or Pitts somehow falls but I doubt that happens. Having said that, it's not like the Bama WRs are guys to throw a fit about getting instead. I just think Slater is the smarter play if he's as good as the consensus and some pretty sharp evaluators feel he is.

Slater has not played in a year and has not played one snap in the NFL. How the heck does he ensure anything except showing up in the food line in camp?
He may well be a very good OG or even OT. But what is to say that Peart will not be a very good RT? Peart is bigger, faster and with longer arms.

In comment 15214073 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 15214051 Bill L said: Quote: to bring in a guy to add competition for a spot. They won't be transformative at all with a line like last season. It won't matter who the receivers are.

They'll be fine. The cumulative statistics are a reflection of a young line with rookies in Thonas, Lemieux, and Peart playing their first NFL games, and Gates playing a new position for the first time. Some struggles should've been expected but all of them demonstrated some improvement and competency at different points, with Thomas and Gates becoming standouts by year end.

Further, the risk with Peart is tempered by a truly solid vet in Solder, who's had a full year off with which his body has had a chance to heal.

And Hernandez is a quality starting Guard in the league, it's clear. He gets it done.

The hand wringing over the line is overblown.

They'll likely draft a guard, which is wise, but not at 11, and let Solder and Peart sort out RT. This is a good plan and the line isiles ahead of where it was in 2017-2018. People forget what a truly bad line looks like, and those seasons they truly were bad. But halfway through last season, this line started to come together. There is real talent here.

I remain convinced the right course is an Alabama receiver at 11.

I never said Slater guarantees anything, no draft pick is a guarantee. In fact you’re making my point, we can’t blindly assume both Thomas and Peart will work out. In fact it is less likely that they both do if you look at draft history and success rates. My point was that a trio of Thomas, Slater and Peart does a pretty good job of locking down the OT spots specifically because of the uncertainty. For all the nice things that you said about Peart, all things that teams knew heading into last years draft, he still fell to the bottom of the 3rd round while Slater is likely going top 15 and possibly top 10. So yes, based on draft pedigree alone Slater is more likely to be successful than Peart if we’re looking at things objectively. And it’s not like Slaters presence buries Peart if he is the goods, Slaters versatility and our other holes on the line means that all 3 of those guys can be cornerstone pieces on the OL if we bat a thousand.

I'd love a great Oline just as next as the next guy. But something I've realized is that very few of us actually have any idea how to scout college Oline...and that includes many people who do it for a living at the professional level.

Everyone has this sentiment that Olineman are safe picks..maybe because it's not flashy. Oline may be the second hardest position to scout after QB.

Check out the first rounders from the 2019 draft

OT Jonah Williams (Cin) Uninspring
OG Chris Lindstrom (Atl) Same
C Garrett Bradbury (Min) Solid
OT Andre Dillard (Phi) Not great
OT Tytus Howard (Hou) Okay but reach
OT Kalen McGary (Atl) Not great


There are also the Robert Gallerys, Chance Warmacks, and Jonathan Coopers over the years

That said, I do like Slater based solely on what he did to Chase Young

Good player, but not for the Giants. The Giants are high on their 2 young tackles and have Solder as depth for now. Those guys all fit the Giants prototype, Slater doesn't.

Then there is the crowd that says Slater should be drafted to play RG. Slater is a tackle. Not a perfect tackle prospect because of his shorter arms and lack of punch, but he's a tackle in the NFL. The whole "he'll be an all pro at guard" is a lazy take that people make everytime a tackle prospect isn't perfect.

Slater has not played guard at NW and he isn't powerful enough to play guard in the Giants system. We've seen what types of guards Gettleman and co like- powerful maulers. Taking a finesse tackle and moving him to guard is not ideal at 11th overall.

In comment 15214077 adamg said:

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Playmaker (D or O) in the first. ER/LB/CB/WR/TE Please god.

I think they need playmakers first 2 rounds. Every other team gets guards later in the draft. They spent 1, 3, 5 on OL last year. They need weapons this year with their premium picks.

In comment 15214073 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 15214051 Bill L said: Quote: to bring in a guy to add competition for a spot. They won't be transformative at all with a line like last season. It won't matter who the receivers are.

They had 3 rookies getting experience. And essentially a Rookie C. And Solder is light years better than Fleming. You have to believe these guys will improve, can’t just cut bait now. I think people are vastly underrating what Peart at RT full time will mean and how much they will all improve in year 2. Hernandez is the guy who needs to step up. But the OL is pretty set and they have spent a shitload of capital on it. They need depth later in the draft. If they don’t believe in what they have they must trade down from 11. Can’t reach for OL there

if your heart is set on getting one. Terrace Marshall would be fantastic as an example.

Slater at 11 does make a lot of sense.

In comment 15214572 Andy in Halifax said:

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if your heart is set on getting one. Terrace Marshall would be fantastic as an example. Slater at 11 does make a lot of sense.

I would puke. A guy brought in just for competition and one that can't physically play his college position, so you would be starting blind... If you had to pick just by position, I think you can do as well with much greater value by picking the same or similar guy at 20 and then have extra picks to work with.

I still believe that the margin of difference between the top 4 pass-catchers and the ones below them is bigger than at our other perceived needs and that those guys are transformative, whereas any other alternative *if picked at 11*, are merely helpful.

Are reporting that plug in start interior OL will be found in round 2, same can be said for receivers.

The same people are reporting that Edge Rushers will hold more value from rounds 3 and 4.

I m becoming convinced Giants at 11 are just going to take highest player on their board. I m also convinced if Smith and Slater are there, they take Smith.

In comment 15214555 Justlurking said:

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In comment 15214073 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 15214051 Bill L said: Quote: to bring in a guy to add competition for a spot. They won't be transformative at all with a line like last season. It won't matter who the receivers are. They had 3 rookies getting experience. And essentially a Rookie C. And Solder is light years better than Fleming. You have to believe these guys will improve, can’t just cut bait now. I think people are vastly underrating what Peart at RT full time will mean and how much they will all improve in year 2. Hernandez is the guy who needs to step up. But the OL is pretty set and they have spent a shitload of capital on it. They need depth later in the draft. If they don’t believe in what they have they must trade down from 11. Can’t reach for OL there

How much did Daniel Jones improve in year two? Nothing against him but assuming improvement isn't a plan, and drafting talent at the same position isn't "cutting bait". If they have high quality marks on slater, they shouldn't simply pass on him because Matt Peart or Shane Lemieux have roster spots. They've proved nothing.

This offensive line allowed Jones to get sacked 14 times in the final 3 games when they were allegedly playing for a chance at the playoffs.

but for my money, the Giants played against brutal defensive lines in games 1-4 last year, all this while losing Barkley, and bringing in two guys who had to get up to game speed as RBs, experimenting with the Oline, playing a rookie at left tackle, a first time starter at Center, and a swiss cheese veteran right tackle, and a poor stable of WRs

Then Jones played a string of 6 games where they were very competitive - scoring 34 points and losing by 3 pts to the Cowboys, beating Washington, Losing to the Eagles by one, losing to the Bucks by 2, beating Washington again, and beating the Eagles

then came the Bengals and Seahawks -- he was knocked out of the Bengals game and McCoy held down the fort and played good enough to win, then he beat the Seahawks -- and that game was won because the defense terrorized the Seahawks -- Russell Wilson was running for his life much like Mahommes in the Superbowl. You cannot tell me McCoy was impressive in that game - he was adequate -- and occasionally awful - he looked like a number 2 QB -- he make some plays but they were hold your breath plays in my view

Then Jones comes back and tries to play against arizona - he can't run and has to be mostly a pocket QB the rest of the way -- and play a different game then he's been playing and went up against a very good Cardinal defense

Then McCoy comes in against the Browns and can't score a single TD -- - two field goals -- that's good play? He regresses

Then the Giants play a solid Ravens team heavy up front again - and everyone knew they were losing that game --

Then Jones beat the Cowboys in a thriller to end the season - with a lot of pissing and moaning here from guys more interested in draft picks then a win

If you are going to beat Jones up for that -- you just don't like him and you are looking for reasons to pick him apart. Lauding McCoy for his performance is absolutely ridiculous. You are smoking something if you think McCoy is better, or understands how to use the Oline better than Jones

There were times last season where Jones looked very sharp, and times where he couldn't perform - much for the same reason as Wilson couldn't perform against the Giants and Mahommes could perform against the Bucks -- a QB under siege is going to look bad -- If you are going to beat Jones up for that then how come you aren't beating up Wilson and Mahommes for their crappy performances under fire --


If you look at what the Giants did this offseason they addressed key soft spots on the team -- they added a plus receiver, they added a plus CB, they added a plus TE, they added low risk high reward Linebackers, Blocking North South RB -- they tried to add a plus ER they liked and then moved on when he signed elsewhere --

they didn't bite at the less than stellar Oline options out there -- Think about it -- the top guy was Tunney - who Judge knows inside out and backwards and they weren't even interested in him

They still have the draft to go - last year with Judge and Garret in the room they had an outstanding draft -- Garrett has had a ton of success with OLine selections -- all three oline draft picks played and each of them seem to be starter material

The 2nd Round pick showed flashes of being a top notch pick. 7th rounders were starting and playing

You have guys like Deep13, who's one of our most informed posters, saying he believes in Jones - Judge says he believes in him


I'm gonna say it - and it needs to be said - Jones will be fine. Just like Josh Allen woke up in year 3 when they gave him a real wide receiver -- I believe you are going to see the same thing out of Jones

I also think with an NFL year under their belt the Oline is going to be better -- they are removing the John Jerry look alike -- that's addition by subtraction -- they have two tackles that look like tackles in Thomas and Peart - they have two guards that look like guards in Hernandez and Lemmieux and Gates proved he can play center. They added a proven blocking TE and RB to assist them also plausses

Now the Giants have a luxury here in the draft this year -- they can pick the best player on the board -- It could be a WR, TE/WR, CB, LB, or OL -- it's definitely going to be one of those 5 positions -- guess what, they could use 1 of each and they'll have another shot at those in Round 2 and 3 (add DT and RB as possibilities into the mix as we get into the later rounds)

The Giants are going to be a better team next year -- and all you Jones dissectors -- I just hope you'll man up when the time comes to do so.

are off the board, then I'd have no problems picking one of those guys.

In comment 15214960 gidiefor said:

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but for my money, the Giants played against brutal defensive lines in games 1-4 last year, all this while losing Barkley, and bringing in two guys who had to get up to game speed as RBs, experimenting with the Oline, playing a rookie at left tackle, a first time starter at Center, and a swiss cheese veteran right tackle, and a poor stable of WRs Then Jones played a string of 6 games where they were very competitive - scoring 34 points and losing by 3 pts to the Cowboys, beating Washington, Losing to the Eagles by one, losing to the Bucks by 2, beating Washington again, and beating the Eagles then came the Bengals and Seahawks -- he was knocked out of the Bengals game and McCoy held down the fort and played good enough to win, then he beat the Seahawks -- and that game was won because the defense terrorized the Seahawks -- Russell Wilson was running for his life much like Mahommes in the Superbowl. You cannot tell me McCoy was impressive in that game - he was adequate -- and occasionally awful - he looked like a number 2 QB -- he make some plays but they were hold your breath plays in my view Then Jones comes back and tries to play against arizona - he can't run and has to be mostly a pocket QB the rest of the way -- and play a different game then he's been playing and went up against a very good Cardinal defense Then McCoy comes in against the Browns and can't score a single TD -- - two field goals -- that's good play? He regresses Then the Giants play a solid Ravens team heavy up front again - and everyone knew they were losing that game -- Then Jones beat the Cowboys in a thriller to end the season - with a lot of pissing and moaning here from guys more interested in draft picks then a win If you are going to beat Jones up for that -- you just don't like him and you are looking for reasons to pick him apart. Lauding McCoy for his performance is absolutely ridiculous. You are smoking something if you think McCoy is better, or understands how to use the Oline better than Jones There were times last season where Jones looked very sharp, and times where he couldn't perform - much for the same reason as Wilson couldn't perform against the Giants and Mahommes could perform against the Bucks -- a QB under siege is going to look bad -- If you are going to beat Jones up for that then how come you aren't beating up Wilson and Mahommes for their crappy performances under fire -- If you look at what the Giants did this offseason they addressed key soft spots on the team -- they added a plus receiver, they added a plus CB, they added a plus TE, they added low risk high reward Linebackers, Blocking North South RB -- they tried to add a plus ER they liked and then moved on when he signed elsewhere -- they didn't bite at the less than stellar Oline options out there -- Think about it -- the top guy was Tunney - who Judge knows inside out and backwards and they weren't even interested in him They still have the draft to go - last year with Judge and Garret in the room they had an outstanding draft -- Garrett has had a ton of success with OLine selections -- all three oline draft picks played and each of them seem to be starter material The 2nd Round pick showed flashes of being a top notch pick. 7th rounders were starting and playing You have guys like Deep13, who's one of our most informed posters, saying he believes in Jones - Judge says he believes in him I'm gonna say it - and it needs to be said - Jones will be fine. Just like Josh Allen woke up in year 3 when they gave him a real wide receiver -- I believe you are going to see the same thing out of Jones I also think with an NFL year under their belt the Oline is going to be better -- they are removing the John Jerry look alike -- that's addition by subtraction -- they have two tackles that look like tackles in Thomas and Peart - they have two guards that look like guards in Hernandez and Lemmieux and Gates proved he can play center. They added a proven blocking TE and RB to assist them also plausses Now the Giants have a luxury here in the draft this year -- they can pick the best player on the board -- It could be a WR, TE/WR, CB, LB, or OL -- it's definitely going to be one of those 5 positions -- guess what, they could use 1 of each and they'll have another shot at those in Round 2 and 3 (add DT and RB as possibilities into the mix as we get into the later rounds) The Giants are going to be a better team next year -- and all you Jones dissectors -- I just hope you'll man up when the time comes to do so.

Great job. Have been saying this too often as well..It’s so apparent, yet, mystifiably, not so apparent to many..I believe we will be proven correct..

In comment 15214461 Breeze_94 said:

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Good player, but not for the Giants. The Giants are high on their 2 young tackles and have Solder as depth for now. Those guys all fit the Giants prototype, Slater doesn't. Then there is the crowd that says Slater should be drafted to play RG. Slater is a tackle. Not a perfect tackle prospect because of his shorter arms and lack of punch, but he's a tackle in the NFL. The whole "he'll be an all pro at guard" is a lazy take that people make everytime a tackle prospect isn't perfect. Slater has not played guard at NW and he isn't powerful enough to play guard in the Giants system. We've seen what types of guards Gettleman and co like- powerful maulers. Taking a finesse tackle and moving him to guard is not ideal at 11th overall.

Nick Gates is a converted Tackle with 32 inch arms and a low bench press (18). He had never played center until the Giants signed him. Hernandez had never played Left Guard until they needed him to. Changing positions is not something they worry about based on their actions.

In comment 15215883 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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Hernandez had never played Left Guard until they needed him to.

I guess if you ignore his whole college career at LG before he started at LG as a rookie in the NFL...
;-)