This upcoming draft makes 10 years of drafts since the rookie wage scale was introduced, and the concept of a rookie QB contract being a team building advantage. To get a sense of how drafting QBs changed in 2011, take a look at the contracts for Sam Bradford (drafted in 2010 under the old CBA) and Cam Newton (drafted in 2011 and paid after the end of the lockout):
2010 #1 pick Sam Bradford: 6 years, $78M
2011 #1 pick Cam Newton: 4 years, $22M
Consider that Joe Burrow was drafted just last year, and his 4 year, $36M contract still isn't half of what Bradford got ten years ago. It really was a "before & after" line, and I wonder the extent to which it changed the way teams look at drafting quarterbacks.
I also started thinking about the last 10 years of 1st round QBs as a group. The table below contains the college career stats of every QB drafted in the first round from 2011-2020. I added the five likely first rounders in the upcoming draft, as well as significant non-first round picks that stuck and made significant impacts in the NFL. This last group is obviously subjective, but I don't know that I'm missing much by excluding the Geno Smiths of the world.
- CAPS denotes a QB that played a big role in getting to a Super Bowl ("big role" really just referring to Carson Wentz; all other QBs in CAPS started a Super Bowl game)
- * denotes a QB who was not picked in the first round; there are 13 of these QBs
- Strikethrough denotes a QB who flamed out and was quickly out of the league
- Sports Reference didn't have all of Garoppolo's stats, so I just included what they had
Every statistical category is shaded green (high rank) to red (low rank), but the QBs are sorted by their college passer rating. I also included their college and NFL AY/A next to each other. AY/A is a pretty good catch-all stat, and is calculated by (pass yards + 20*(pass TD) - 45*(interceptions thrown))/(passing attempts).
Two thoughts:
1. I thought the number of QBs over this 10 year period would be larger than it is (49, 36 drafted in round 1). But maybe that feels about right? A shade under 5 QBs per draft on average?
2. You can see how passing efficiency has really gone up. I am reminded of Nick Saban's recent admission that you have to outscore people now...no surprise that the two highest rated QBs are his last two. Lincoln Riley's guys also stand out: Murray, Mayfield, and Hurts.
The only one I see is that any chart that has Dwayne Haskins ranked 8th, Trubisky 19, and Bortles 24, while Mahomes is 28th, Russell Wilson is 30th and Josh Allen is 43rd is just a bunch of meaningless numbers on a page, when it comes to evaluating QBs
Really interesting, for sure.
So many questions pop to mind...
Really of that list who stands out as elite? Only Mahomes to me, although Wilson is in the conversation.
So which of this group becomes the new Brady or Eli? Will any of these guys win multiple SBs?
A couple of Guys have gotten to or won a SB, and have either fallen off the map, or are just not in high demand anymore. Crazy when you think about what we had with Eli.... and how truly amazing Brady, Brees, Eli, Big Ben's and Rivers careers have been.
Good stuff Terps.
The only one I see is that any chart that has Dwayne Haskins ranked 8th, Trubisky 19, and Bortles 24, while Mahomes is 28th, Russell Wilson is 30th and Josh Allen is 43rd is just a bunch of meaningless numbers on a page, when it comes to evaluating QBs
I was thinking the same thing.
Looking though a Giants lense, I’d say the takeaway is the team around a QB has more to do with their success that their QB rating. In other words, helps prove the point the Giants problems the last 2 years are less about Daniel Jones and more about the team around him. Bc looked at without any other factors considered, QB rating in college clearly doesn’t correlate to NFL success
And along those lines...had Daniel Jones played at Ohio State and Dwayne Haskins played at Duke in 2018, how differently would they have been perceived coming out?
Totally agree with this. They may still get exposed at some point but it certainly helps with at least having moderate success.
I don't find any surprise in the fact that the guys from the big dominant programs have better college stats. That makes sense. What scouts do is figure out if that will translate to the NFL or not (like Leinert). Also they find the guys with worse stats that come from programs that didn't win as much and try to figure out if its the program or them
But you never know.
But you never know.
Pretty sure that’s his point.
I'm not sold on that opinion at all, but it does stand out here.
There are a lot more interesting things I get from this data, that I have already stated...
- Of that list who stands out as elite? Only Mahomes to me, although Wilson is in the conversation.
- Which of this group becomes the new Brady or Eli?
- Will any of these guys win multiple SBs?
A couple of Guys have gotten to or won a SB, and have either fallen off the map, or are just not in high demand anymore (Kaepernick).
And it TRULY is Crazy when you think about what we had with Eli.... and how truly amazing Brady, Brees, Eli, Big Ben's and Rivers careers have been.
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I just kind of figured he posted as informational... make your own inferences. It sure makes me think, and mfsd I agree with your last point. But I have always felt where a guy lands is almost as important as the guy himself... with a (very) few exceptions.
Totally agree with this. They may still get exposed at some point but it certainly helps with at least having moderate success.
For sure. This data solidifies that for me even more. It's a pretty interesting graphic.
Say 100? ;)
Say 100? ;)
See, this is trolling for an argument. In my view this only matters if you consider it an important metric for determining who you pick from college. Sort by other metrics and he goes up and down comparatively. He is better in almost every metric than Josh Allen. And his NFL AY/A is a whole lot closer to other guys who ar5e having success. I'd be interested to see it sorted by that metric.
Say 100? ;)
I don't see how this proves anything one way or another about Jones, except that college performance as measured by QB rating has little correlation to NFL success
But if you would prefer Haskins over Mahomes, Wilson, or Lamar Jackson bc Haskins had better college stats, knock yourself out
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Should we set the O/U for the number of excuses for Jones while at Duke?
Say 100? ;)
I don't see how this proves anything one way or another about Jones, except that college performance as measured by QB rating has little correlation to NFL success
But if you would prefer Haskins over Mahomes, Wilson, or Lamar Jackson bc Haskins had better college stats, knock yourself out
I really was just joking with Terps because there was a recent thread where we got inundated with excuses for Jones's play thus far. Nothing more, nothing less.
When I look at college QBs, I don't put a lot of emphasis on their college stats. I put more weight on physical attributes like arm talent and mobility. I will look at completion % because I think that might be a decent indicator for the pros.
The problem is that the schemes and talent level the QBs had around them were all different. Tua and Mac Jones are obviously at the top because they play at the most loaded team in the nation.
Jones played at Duke with zero future NFL players. It's just impossible to compare what he did vs. what Mac Jones/Tua did purely based on stats.
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In comment 15215145 bw in dc said:
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Should we set the O/U for the number of excuses for Jones while at Duke?
Say 100? ;)
I don't see how this proves anything one way or another about Jones, except that college performance as measured by QB rating has little correlation to NFL success
But if you would prefer Haskins over Mahomes, Wilson, or Lamar Jackson bc Haskins had better college stats, knock yourself out
I really was just joking with Terps because there was a recent thread where we got inundated with excuses for Jones's play thus far. Nothing more, nothing less.
When I look at college QBs, I don't put a lot of emphasis on their college stats. I put more weight on physical attributes like arm talent and mobility. I will look at completion % because I think that might be a decent indicator for the pros.
Apologies for overreacting, both to you and Terps above...I sort looked at this thinking there was some hidden meaning intended, and my first responses were on the argumentative side, but Terps may well have simply posted to say here’s 10 years of data, discuss
As for the stats, I’d agree that there are way too many variables between college and pros to assign too much to any of them...type of offense run, quality of surrounded players, quality of opponents, etc. As much as the pros try to gather all they can and parse through it, they still get it wrong a lot
The problem is that the schemes and talent level the QBs had around them were all different. Tua and Mac Jones are obviously at the top because they play at the most loaded team in the nation.
Jones played at Duke with zero future NFL players. It's just impossible to compare what he did vs. what Mac Jones/Tua did purely based on stats.
Well, I’m not sure this is entirely correct. The level of talent has some relative correlation to outcomes. If you put me at Alabama QB1, my stats aren’t going to be better than the Duke QB1 no matter how much talent I have around me. Also, the QB1 position at Alabama isn’t randomly assigned anymore than the starting QB1 at Eastern Illinois. Those teams are composed of relatively similar levels of talent and play, mostly, against similar levels of talent. I don’t think Terps weighted his data but you could also argue that the CFB recruiting process did most of the heavy lifting. I think...
Agreed
I agree, but he did finally look human with the OL he had in front of him in the SB.
Is this a signal that perhaps the future of the NFL is a devaluation of QBs because there just aren't many good ones? Or an increasing valuation of the really good ones since they are becoming more scarce? Or some combination of both?
Meanwhile we have the usual amount of baiting from bw, referring to an entirely separate thread, as usual.
I was more along the lines of what McL posted.
I was more along the lines of what McL posted.
It's a pretty cool view for sure. So many points it brings to attention. Can you sort it by NFL AY/A? It looks like Jones will still be in the lower range but I'm interested to see that. Thx Terps
When you look at it sorted this way there is more green on top (obviously ignoring this year's N/A prospects) than there is on the bottom, implying that there may be some level of correlation between college pass completions & attempts, college TDs, and NFL AY/A.
And regarding Jones, it just doesn't paint a great picture. His 6.5 AY/A was 26th in the NFL...remember - that number does not take into account his league leading 19 fumbles. And if you look into his 12 starts in 2019 here are his game by game AY/A numbers:
1: 10.44
2. 5.00
3. 4.13
4. 1.48
5. 5.66
6. 9.80
7. 4.51
8. 9.70
9. 5.28
10. 3.38
11. 10.76
12. 5.87
So in his rookie season he played 4 great games and 8 really poor games. Again...that's not counting 19 fumbles.
It's commonly stated that Jones had a good rookie year. That isn't true.
And I said this in another thread, but Josh Rosen’s NFL career looks like some weird outlier, even on a list with a number of busts included. I am curious to learn the full story there one day.
Nice work.
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It's definitely interesting to look at.
The problem is that the schemes and talent level the QBs had around them were all different. Tua and Mac Jones are obviously at the top because they play at the most loaded team in the nation.
Jones played at Duke with zero future NFL players. It's just impossible to compare what he did vs. what Mac Jones/Tua did purely based on stats.
Well, I’m not sure this is entirely correct. The level of talent has some relative correlation to outcomes. If you put me at Alabama QB1, my stats aren’t going to be better than the Duke QB1 no matter how much talent I have around me. Also, the QB1 position at Alabama isn’t randomly assigned anymore than the starting QB1 at Eastern Illinois. Those teams are composed of relatively similar levels of talent and play, mostly, against similar levels of talent. I don’t think Terps weighted his data but you could also argue that the CFB recruiting process did most of the heavy lifting. I think...
This is utter nonsense. You are telling me Cee Dee Lamb, Waddle, Smith et al aren't going to make a difference over what some QB from Northern Illinois has to catch his passes. 1st round WR vs guys who are selling insurance or teaching in HS.
One of the biggest arguments about NYG receivers is separation or lack thereof vs say Mahomes and his guys. Alabama's guys are open against CBs that get drafted into the NFL - that doesn't help Matt Jones completion percentage?
There are a WHOLE LOT of QB questions in the NFL right now.
Who really is set at QB in the NFL except for KC/Mahomes?
1) Buffalo - Josh Allen
2) Baltimore - Lamar Jackson
3) Arizona - Kyler Murray
4) Cleveland - Mayfield
5) Tampa - Brady (For How long?)
TD%
INT%
There's a big discrepancy between the way many on BBI view Y/A and NFL people do. It is looked at as an offensive effiency value for football people while here it is looked at as a QB stat.
QB's don't intentionally look to have low yards per play, but some offensive designs will result in that vs. others.
I'm curious why you look at it as a QB metric and an important one at that?
I don't expect you to talk directly with NFL people, but the fluctuation QB's have had from year to year when the offensive systems change should be enough for you to realize that.
Suppose Tampa safety makes the tackle. Clearly, Jones’ stats represented in this thread would go down.
Suppose Engram drops the pass. He does it quite a bit. Jones’ stats in this thread also go down.
That’s why it was so important to bring in guys like Golladay, Rudolph, hopefully Ross, a draft pick (?). You need weapons that help your QB look good. Add in a healthy Barkley and away we go.
Do you have a better number? I know there is EPA (expected points added) but that's harder to come by.
That list covers over 50000 passes thrown by 49 college QBs in a 10 year period. It's a pretty good sample size. Are we really going to believe that Jones's poor AY/A and TD% in college and the pros are because of a series of unfortunate events that only befell him?
Now look at your list. Only 5 in 45 (11%) are significantly differentiated in any way.
So your own data tells us that following this strategy leads to the same posts over 3 years with new names stitched in.
So unless I am missing something significant, the most likely outcome of what you have advocated likely produces no cheese at the end of the tunnel? Using your own data.
Nor does the above analysis show that the metric significantly correlates to NFL success except for Brady and a few others...who are statistical outliers in so many ways. (and I point out that Bradys metric on this radically decreased once he no longer had Moss or the 2 TE offense).
Unless the real cheese is to argue, does all this show that the top 10% of a data sample is nowhere close to the average of the sample?
Its an opinion that Jones is not good enough. I share the same doubts. I cant make a good argument beyond what I worry about from watching and I havent seen anyone else do so...so to me...those who argue otherwise are on equally spongy ground.
Unless the goal is to argue- imo, we dont know enough to be conclusive yet. Doubt Judge does either.
That list covers over 50000 passes thrown by 49 college QBs in a 10 year period. It's a pretty good sample size. Are we really going to believe that Jones's poor AY/A and TD% in college and the pros are because of a series of unfortunate events that only befell him?
Sample sizes across different QB's and systems don't mean much. How many of those QB's have stable AY/A??
Here's a few examples for you. Brett Favre had AY/A's of 5.0, 5.2, 5.6, 5.6 and AY/A's of 7.9, 7.9, 7.6 and 7.4
His last season with the Pack was 7.8. Went to the Jets and had a 6.7. Went to Minny and had a 7.9. What is stable about his stat??
Carson Wentz has had AY/A's of 5.7, 8.3, 7.9, 7.0 and 5.3. A lot of fluctuation.
Tannehill has had AY/A's of 6.1, 6.2, 6.9, 7.1, 7.3, 7.0, 10.2 and 8.7
Trying to pigeon-hole consistency to a metric that varies a lot is disingenuous.
Jones' AY/A is actually slightly better in the NFL. That doesn't mean a whole lot - but AY/A doesn't mean a whole lot for individual QB's anyway.
There's a reason that people who put credence in the stat do so to evaluate an offense, but for some reason, we're supposed to take it to a different level on BBI? why?
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Is Jones the only one that's had to deal with someone dropping passes, or some other form of bad luck?
That list covers over 50000 passes thrown by 49 college QBs in a 10 year period. It's a pretty good sample size. Are we really going to believe that Jones's poor AY/A and TD% in college and the pros are because of a series of unfortunate events that only befell him?
Sample sizes across different QB's and systems don't mean much. How many of those QB's have stable AY/A??
Here's a few examples for you. Brett Favre had AY/A's of 5.0, 5.2, 5.6, 5.6 and AY/A's of 7.9, 7.9, 7.6 and 7.4
His last season with the Pack was 7.8. Went to the Jets and had a 6.7. Went to Minny and had a 7.9. What is stable about his stat??
Carson Wentz has had AY/A's of 5.7, 8.3, 7.9, 7.0 and 5.3. A lot of fluctuation.
Tannehill has had AY/A's of 6.1, 6.2, 6.9, 7.1, 7.3, 7.0, 10.2 and 8.7
Trying to pigeon-hole consistency to a metric that varies a lot is disingenuous.
It hasn't varied with Jones going back to Duke. At Duke: 6.4, 5.5, 6.9. At NYG: 6.5, 6.1. Consistent. Consistently poor.
Makes you wonder what they were looking at when they drafted him.
That's one measurable I tend to buy as something that might convey from one level to the next.
Doesn't mean they are correct (or incorrect) or that others cannot take more time before they are comfortable passing those judgments. It seems like the Giants/Judge are taking more time...at least until the 2021 Draft is complete.
But the goal should be to discuss and debate all-things NYG.
Unless you choose not to which is fine too...
just is an immutable reality about football.
my point is that the vast majority of posts about QBs are going to wind up based on emotion, speculation, some factoids and a bunch of opinion laden argumentation. including the vast majority of my posts about QB play.
i doubt that even coaches with 5x our available data can rise above opinion laden argumentation when it comes to QB evaluation
1) Lets watch and note when the goal is reached.
2) Lets note the first day when we dont have posts from posters who everyday for years wake up and spend their day putting down other posters while generating almost no useful insights of their own.
Doesn't mean they are correct (or incorrect) or that others cannot take more time before they are comfortable passing those judgments. It seems like the Giants/Judge are taking more time...at least until the 2021 Draft is complete.
But the goal should be to discuss and debate all-things NYG.
Unless you choose not to which is fine too...
It is interesting these lines some are drawing in the sand about how far a poster can go with an opinion. And that some "balance" should be struck - whatever the hell that means - to come off as someone who is more worthwhile as a poster.
Until this organization puts a team that consistently wins on the field, the so called "football experts" with the Giants deserve little to no benefit of the doubt, despite their vast experiences.
On Jones, I believe the temperature of the debates would be a lot cooler if he wasn't the 6th pick. Because with that, IMV, comes great responsibility to be a difference maker. A real force multiplier. Those should be the expectations. If Jones was a second or third rounder, I would take a much different tack. I would view him more as a project who is more dependent on those who surround him...until proven otherwise.
my point is that the vast majority of posts about QBs are going to wind up based on emotion, speculation, some factoids and a bunch of opinion laden argumentation. including the vast majority of my posts about QB play.
So...what's wrong with that?
1) Lets watch and note when the goal is reached.
2) Lets note the first day when we dont have posts from posters who everyday for years wake up and spend their day putting down other posters while generating almost no useful insights of their own.
Not to drag this on, but the judgment of others on BBI takes on many shapes and forms.
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based on what they have seen to date and what they are looking for in a QB for Giants.
Doesn't mean they are correct (or incorrect) or that others cannot take more time before they are comfortable passing those judgments. It seems like the Giants/Judge are taking more time...at least until the 2021 Draft is complete.
But the goal should be to discuss and debate all-things NYG.
Unless you choose not to which is fine too...
It is interesting these lines some are drawing in the sand about how far a poster can go with an opinion. And that some "balance" should be struck - whatever the hell that means - to come off as someone who is more worthwhile as a poster.
Until this organization puts a team that consistently wins on the field, the so called "football experts" with the Giants deserve little to no benefit of the doubt, despite their vast experiences.
On Jones, I believe the temperature of the debates would be a lot cooler if he wasn't the 6th pick. Because with that, IMV, comes great responsibility to be a difference maker. A real force multiplier. Those should be the expectations. If Jones was a second or third rounder, I would take a much different tack. I would view him more as a project who is more dependent on those who surround him...until proven otherwise.
So if he was the Giants pick at #30 (where they picked Deandre Baker) or their original Rd 2 pick, we wouldn't be debating whether he deserves a third year or not?
Not so sure...
2) Lets note the first day when we dont have posts from posters who everyday for years wake up and spend their day putting down other posters while generating almost no useful insights of their own.
This is interesting because I notice you seem to align with FMiC quite a bit.
Yeah, but in the end the team still has to get more from him, and resultingly win more often.
The same unproductive QB that is cheaper "buys" just so much happiness... :-)
If you did note, then you would note that was( was being an important word) almost always on threads theoretically about analytics.
The psychology of making ones world about "sides" is worth reading up on
i'll drop out and you guys enjoy
That list covers over 50000 passes thrown by 49 college QBs in a 10 year period. It's a pretty good sample size. Are we really going to believe that Jones's poor AY/A and TD% in college and the pros are because of a series of unfortunate events that only befell him?
Did any of his Duke supporting cast get an NFL tryout even? I mean come on. It’s not unfortunate. It’s the truth.
The only reason they sniffed a bowl game was the guy under center for the Giants the last 2 seasons. Then he gets to the NFL — he sits 2 games under Eli, gets thrown into the lineup where he has Barkley, inconsistent Engram, usually injured Shep, a rookie in Slayton, and not much else. Year 2, the country is in a pandemic. Not only do we not get him a WR in year 2, his best weapon is injured in the first quarter of game 2.
His head coach loves the guy, according to every report I’ve read. You may be sold on him not being the answer, but Judge sure isn’t. So if you trust Judge, then why is his opinion of Jones not resonating with you?
But, and again this is just my view, I would be willing to wager Judge is not yet sold on DJ the starting quarterback. And I base this mostly on how DJ's "playbook" was clearly reigned in after an awful first half of 2020.
I think Judge may have seen just enough good things in DJ's second half to win his commitment to him for a third year.
But not by much...
And I don't believe Judge when he talks about Jones. I think Judge knows he's stuck with Jones for this year, and is handling it the only way he can.
And I don't believe Judge when he talks about Jones. I think Judge knows he's stuck with Jones for this year, and is handling it the only way he can.
I don’t think that’s an accurate portrayal of Joe Judge’s true feelings on Daniel Jones. I don’t see Judge as knowing Jones is not the answer and then willingly throwing away seasons because of it. Judge lives, eats, breathes, and craps football. If he was convinced Jones wasn’t the best option for the team going forward, he’d go to Mara, Gettleman, and whoever privately and that would be done.
Did he get better in year 2? Bigblueview - ( New Window )
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In comment 15217743 Go Terps said:
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Is Jones the only one that's had to deal with someone dropping passes, or some other form of bad luck?
That list covers over 50000 passes thrown by 49 college QBs in a 10 year period. It's a pretty good sample size. Are we really going to believe that Jones's poor AY/A and TD% in college and the pros are because of a series of unfortunate events that only befell him?
Sample sizes across different QB's and systems don't mean much. How many of those QB's have stable AY/A??
Here's a few examples for you. Brett Favre had AY/A's of 5.0, 5.2, 5.6, 5.6 and AY/A's of 7.9, 7.9, 7.6 and 7.4
His last season with the Pack was 7.8. Went to the Jets and had a 6.7. Went to Minny and had a 7.9. What is stable about his stat??
Carson Wentz has had AY/A's of 5.7, 8.3, 7.9, 7.0 and 5.3. A lot of fluctuation.
Tannehill has had AY/A's of 6.1, 6.2, 6.9, 7.1, 7.3, 7.0, 10.2 and 8.7
Trying to pigeon-hole consistency to a metric that varies a lot is disingenuous.
It hasn't varied with Jones going back to Duke. At Duke: 6.4, 5.5, 6.9. At NYG: 6.5, 6.1. Consistent. Consistently poor.
Makes you wonder what they were looking at when they drafted him.
Why would it matter if it has varied?? Are you not listening to what I'm saying? AY/A isn't looked at as a metric of a QB, but of the offense.
If AY/A was an indicator of QB competency, perhaps you can explain how Tua and Haskins and a host of other QB's had a very good one in college with some of the best skill players and then a poor one in the NFL.
You should be able to explain how a metric that supposedly shows good QB play falls to pieces in different situations.
Why can't you?
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In comment 15217799 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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In comment 15217743 Go Terps said:
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Is Jones the only one that's had to deal with someone dropping passes, or some other form of bad luck?
That list covers over 50000 passes thrown by 49 college QBs in a 10 year period. It's a pretty good sample size. Are we really going to believe that Jones's poor AY/A and TD% in college and the pros are because of a series of unfortunate events that only befell him?
Sample sizes across different QB's and systems don't mean much. How many of those QB's have stable AY/A??
Here's a few examples for you. Brett Favre had AY/A's of 5.0, 5.2, 5.6, 5.6 and AY/A's of 7.9, 7.9, 7.6 and 7.4
His last season with the Pack was 7.8. Went to the Jets and had a 6.7. Went to Minny and had a 7.9. What is stable about his stat??
Carson Wentz has had AY/A's of 5.7, 8.3, 7.9, 7.0 and 5.3. A lot of fluctuation.
Tannehill has had AY/A's of 6.1, 6.2, 6.9, 7.1, 7.3, 7.0, 10.2 and 8.7
Trying to pigeon-hole consistency to a metric that varies a lot is disingenuous.
It hasn't varied with Jones going back to Duke. At Duke: 6.4, 5.5, 6.9. At NYG: 6.5, 6.1. Consistent. Consistently poor.
Makes you wonder what they were looking at when they drafted him.
Why would it matter if it has varied?? Are you not listening to what I'm saying? AY/A isn't looked at as a metric of a QB, but of the offense.
If AY/A was an indicator of QB competency, perhaps you can explain how Tua and Haskins and a host of other QB's had a very good one in college with some of the best skill players and then a poor one in the NFL.
You should be able to explain how a metric that supposedly shows good QB play falls to pieces in different situations.
Why can't you?
If you look at any stat in isolation it is not going to be a good indicator, especially a stat like AY/A which merely compiles other stats. If I am looking at a QB who can translate to the NFL I would prefer to see how he does in red zone and goal to go. Offensive advantages get more neutralized because the back of the end zone is an extra defender. If a QB can’t hit those windows in college game that is concerning for the pros. That also makes me wonder if the Redskins did the right thing going after Fitzpatrick. He was worse than Jones in that regard in 2020. If you look at 2018 and compare him to Jameis Winston with the same talent around them, his numbers are atrocious.
And so we come back to what it always comes back to with Jones: an endless tide of excuses.
But the problem then lies with the fact that, whether because of his own poor play or because of the excuses, we've never actually seen Jones play like someone worthy of the 6th pick overall or of the moniker "franchise QB". It's all based on faith.
So why did they draft him? You know why they did as well as I do.
And so we come back to what it always comes back to with Jones: an endless tide of excuses.
But the problem then lies with the fact that, whether because of his own poor play or because of the excuses, we've never actually seen Jones play like someone worthy of the 6th pick overall or of the moniker "franchise QB". It's all based on faith.
So why did they draft him? You know why they did as well as I do.
Why did they draft him? Simple, they realized Eli was toast and they had no other options on the roster. In the NFL he has been a better QB than Haskins or Lock, the two other QB’s that were talked about along with Jones. He has flaws, but some of the best QB’s of all time did not become who they were in as quick of a time period as you want from Jones.
And so we come back to what it always comes back to with Jones: an endless tide of excuses.
But the problem then lies with the fact that, whether because of his own poor play or because of the excuses, we've never actually seen Jones play like someone worthy of the 6th pick overall or of the moniker "franchise QB". It's all based on faith.
So why did they draft him? You know why they did as well as I do.
Some of this stuff doesn’t make sense; I’m sure the Giants drafting Phil Simms didn’t make sense to a lot of people otherwise they wouldn’t have booed. Simms never played in the college postseason and threw more interceptions than touchdowns in college. Took a few years thanks to the injury bug biting Simms pretty hard, but he became our guy for more than half a decade.
Speaking of which, would someone please remind me why everyone booed when Simms was drafted?
- They could have stuck with Eli another year
- They could have cut Eli and signed an FA (Tyrod Taylor only got 2 years $11M from LA that offseason)
- They could have picked Gardner Minshew in that same draft...he was a better college player than Jones (see above) and has been a better pro player than Jones. Minshew was picked 178th overall.
You don't shop hungry with the 6th pick overall.
Anyway, here's hoping something that has never happened before happens in 2021: that Daniel Jones has a prolific year as a passer.
So why did they draft him? You know why they did as well as I do.
They drafted him because of scouting and the need for a QB. I'm assuming you are trying to intimate that they drafted him because he's "Eli 2.0" as you like to put it (and then ironically talk about comparisons to eli as being bunk).
The ironic thing is that the book isn't written on Jones, even though you think it has been. And yet, if we had drafted Rosen, Darnold, Haskins or other guys who haven't panned out (despite their better AY/A numbers in college, you'd just point to a different set of criteria.
Jones had 24 TD's in his rookie year, and you still act like that was a really bad season and you say everyone else is using "excuses" for him.
Sounds like an excuse for DJ...and probably DG as well.
Squeaky noises with no purpose.
Only mentioning the struggling ones to suggest Jones' critics wouldn't have liked them either is adding nothing, and as telling as your name calling.
The goal is to find the good ones, not just take solace in avoiding poor ones.
They missed on Josh Allen & probably could have waited to 2020 for Herbert, but Tua doesn’t look so great either to date.
Jones is going to get 2021 as he should. The fact is the Giants didn’t go 1-15 or 2-14 last year, they went 6-10. Jones has shown some flashes and offers a nice skillset. I think we’ve gotta let it play out some more.
They missed on Josh Allen & probably could have waited to 2020 for Herbert, but Tua doesn’t look so great either to date.
Jones is going to get 2021 as he should. The fact is the Giants didn’t go 1-15 or 2-14 last year, they went 6-10. Jones has shown some flashes and offers a nice skillset. I think we’ve gotta let it play out some more.
There is no sense not giving him a third year when there are no better options out there and we still have time to decide whether to exercise 5th year option. None of the FA QB's were an improvement over Jones and it looks like the QB's in the draft who would be improvements will all be selected well prior to 11. If Jones does not show progress this year then you Mitch Trubisky him, decline fifth year option and bring in competition. Progress does not mean being a Pro Bowl QB. Need to see improvement with decisionmaking and cutting down on fumbles. We had a couple of chances late in games this past season where we would have won if Jones wasn't late reading plays. We should not be focused on TD/INT ratio, AY/A, or some other stat, we need to go by what we are seeing on the field. A QB can have an INT by throwing a perfect ball to the TE on the proper read and the TE treats it like a hot potato into a defender's waiting arms. That will throw off both stats even though the QB did nothing wrong.
They missed on Josh Allen & probably could have waited to 2020 for Herbert, but Tua doesn’t look so great either to date.
Jones is going to get 2021 as he should. The fact is the Giants didn’t go 1-15 or 2-14 last year, they went 6-10. Jones has shown some flashes and offers a nice skillset. I think we’ve gotta let it play out some more.
Would you feel the same way if we had the second pick?
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The Giants were linked to both Josh Rosen in 2018 & Dwayne Haskins in 2019 - both selections would have been FAR worse than Jones. The other QB the Giants were linked to is Sam Darnold, I do not see him as an upgrade over Jones either.
They missed on Josh Allen & probably could have waited to 2020 for Herbert, but Tua doesn’t look so great either to date.
Jones is going to get 2021 as he should. The fact is the Giants didn’t go 1-15 or 2-14 last year, they went 6-10. Jones has shown some flashes and offers a nice skillset. I think we’ve gotta let it play out some more.
Would you feel the same way if we had the second pick?
If you are in a position to land a potential franchise QB you do that if you don't have one. As of right now the jury is still out on if Jones is a franchise QB who can make talent around him better versus someone who needs the right pieces around him. At 11 the Giants are not in that position because the cost to trade up would be too prohibitive
You can debate whether that is correct or whether they require a different DNA profile in making decisions. But those are the facts in early 2021.
They missed on Josh Allen & probably could have waited to 2020 for Herbert, but Tua doesn’t look so great either to date.
Jones is going to get 2021 as he should. The fact is the Giants didn’t go 1-15 or 2-14 last year, they went 6-10. Jones has shown some flashes and offers a nice skillset. I think we’ve gotta let it play out some more.
Josh Allen is THE miss. Everything about him was intriguing.
Taking Herbert would have required some serious brass balls and admitting that Jones was replaceable. But there was no way Gettleman & Mara were going to admit a mistake. So while I would have supported that move 100%, it's just not realistic with the cast of characters involved.
Jones is going to get two more seasons to sink or swim. And I'm not sure Judge is going to have much say in that otherwise...
Agree for sure. There is a lot of turmoil in the league at QB right now. Can lose a couple of fingers and still count how many teams are really set at QB for some time at this point. I feel like we would be insane to give up on Jones at this point. I can't even believe that anyone would be a proponent of that.
We’ll find out a lot this year.
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The Giants were linked to both Josh Rosen in 2018 & Dwayne Haskins in 2019 - both selections would have been FAR worse than Jones. The other QB the Giants were linked to is Sam Darnold, I do not see him as an upgrade over Jones either.
They missed on Josh Allen & probably could have waited to 2020 for Herbert, but Tua doesn’t look so great either to date.
Jones is going to get 2021 as he should. The fact is the Giants didn’t go 1-15 or 2-14 last year, they went 6-10. Jones has shown some flashes and offers a nice skillset. I think we’ve gotta let it play out some more.
Josh Allen is THE miss. Everything about him was intriguing.
Taking Herbert would have required some serious brass balls and admitting that Jones was replaceable. But there was no way Gettleman & Mara were going to admit a mistake. So while I would have supported that move 100%, it's just not realistic with the cast of characters involved.
Jones is going to get two more seasons to sink or swim. And I'm not sure Judge is going to have much say in that otherwise...
What would the patience level had been with Allen in NY the way he started?? what if he was erratic like he was in Buffalo, the team had a bad record, and he missed a couple of games with injury??
Then in his second year, he has to throw to Tate, Shepard, Slayton and Engram?
With the same rationale used with Jones, you'd likely say we needed to pivot from Allen.
Allen was a huge gamble and frankly, his rookie season confirmed things we saw in college regarding accuracy and risk taking while running.
I've argued that taking a QB outside the first or second round is really not worth the draft pick because the odds of finding a super bowl winning talent drops considerably.
When you look at super bowl winning QBs over the past 20 years over half were first rounders, and then there is Brady, haha.
Allen clearly showed his abilities to be a weapon at the QB position in his first two years. And at a level that was a good bit more than Jones.
As you say above, Allen was a scoring threat with both arm and legs. He avoided the pass rush better, had far more game winning drives and 4th quarter comebacks. You can live with some level of "erratic" if the guy is producing wins at good clip and that is what Allen did.
Always find this to be an odd comparison on this site.
DJ is moving into his 7th year of pro quality coaching. Meanwhile, he has multiple deficiencies that need to be fixed and actually regressed in his 2nd pro season.
How are the two players’ learning trajectories related? They are following very different paths.
But there were big question marks on those guys. Would I love to have Josh Allen in hindsight? Sure. And I really liked Jackson, though he would have been a disaster here.
And on Josh Allen, you have seen some of his sacks right? He takes some really dumb risks sometimes. I think he has lost more yardage in sacks than anyone in the NFL... lol. Let's not pretend he still doesn't have some work to do. And that's on a better team right now than the Giants.
Anyway, here's to hoping Jones proves he's the guy this year... lol
I pointed out above how his rookie season was comprised of 4 really good games and 8 bad games. I'm not going to get excited about that two years removed, given he put up a terrible season in 2020.
He looks like Eli and was also coached by Cutcliffe...if you don't think that mattered to Mara/Gettleman/Accorsi you haven't been paying attention over the years. Of course he is nothing like Eli as a player, so that tells you the quality of their evaluation process.
And you're right...the book isn't written. He's being "given" another year he hasn't earned on the field. More opportunity to add to the unimpressive college and pro resumes.
But there were big question marks on those guys. Would I love to have Josh Allen in hindsight? Sure. And I really liked Jackson, though he would have been a disaster here.
And on Josh Allen, you have seen some of his sacks right? He takes some really dumb risks sometimes. I think he has lost more yardage in sacks than anyone in the NFL... lol. Let's not pretend he still doesn't have some work to do. And that's on a better team right now than the Giants.
Anyway, here's to hoping Jones proves he's the guy this year... lol
I think you nailed it...Barkley was always the easy pick, just not the right one.
As to sacks/yard lost just so we can see the facts:
Allen in 44 games - 92 sacks/609 yards lost
Jones in 27 games - 83 sacks/581 yards lost
I hope Jones proves he's the guy too.
I see good things about Jones: he's got good speed and he's tough. He's accurate on "see it, throw it" deep balls that don't require a big amount of anticipation.
It just doesn't outweigh the numerous issues.
I think you nailed it...Barkley was always the easy pick, just not the right one.
As to sacks/yard lost just so we can see the facts:
Allen in 44 games - 92 sacks/609 yards lost
Jones in 27 games - 83 sacks/581 yards lost
I hope Jones proves he's the guy too.
Well, if Jones ends up being the guy, then there 100% is redemption on that pick. If you can call it redemption, I for one am not sad we took Barkley with that pick, even in hindsight. Thx for pulling those sack numbers. Shows you how much Jones was constantly running for his life. I am actually worried that getting that much constant pressure will at some point make him gun shy. I really hope the OL pulls together this year and he has more time in the pocket.
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But you do realize your assessment of Jones is much more bleak than pretty much anyone on the planet? Include people that evaluate players for a living? It's just surprising to me that you can be so down on him, when most people see good AND bad.
I see good things about Jones: he's got good speed and he's tough. He's accurate on "see it, throw it" deep balls that don't require a big amount of anticipation.
It just doesn't outweigh the numerous issues.
That makes sense, so do you think he can't overcome those issues with experience, coaching, and adjusting scheme to his strengths? Well, and better play around him... lol. I guess that's the million $$ question.
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I think you nailed it...Barkley was always the easy pick, just not the right one.
As to sacks/yard lost just so we can see the facts:
Allen in 44 games - 92 sacks/609 yards lost
Jones in 27 games - 83 sacks/581 yards lost
I hope Jones proves he's the guy too.
Well, if Jones ends up being the guy, then there 100% is redemption on that pick. If you can call it redemption, I for one am not sad we took Barkley with that pick, even in hindsight. Thx for pulling those sack numbers. Shows you how much Jones was constantly running for his life. I am actually worried that getting that much constant pressure will at some point make him gun shy. I really hope the OL pulls together this year and he has more time in the pocket.
To your point, have seen some brainfart moments of Allen taking some bad sacks. But imv, overall he is much better navigating around the pocket than Jones. We saw too many instances of just Jones drifting back when he gets pressure versus scrambling/dodging.
The sack numbers don't really tell you anything definitive except that the Giant OL sure as hell needs better players. But it was your comment so I threw it out there.
What does "overcome those issues" mean, though? Does it mean he could grow into a Mariota-type borderline starter/high end backup? Probably.
But is he going to grow into one of the best QBs in the league in the next year or two? Someone worth paying $30+ million a year? I seriously doubt it.
in my view the takeaways are pretty simple - the odds are about 10-20% for young QBs to pan out with a very select few being good right away (Herbert, Burrow, Luck, etc).
then there's a sizable sample who are very quickly identified as abject disasters, usually for non-physical talent reasons (Rosen, Haskins, Manziel etc).
and most are somewhere in between with a variety of mitigating factors that give them a chance but could go either way (Allen, Mayfield, Murray, etc). IMO both Dak and Russell Wilson were in this category and developed into the MVP level players they are now. Eli too for that matter.
Since everyone needs 2 cents on Jones I put him in that last category and I'd also speculate that oftentimes it's a better percentage play to try to develop a player up from that category than start from scratch, but that's case by case. If I were the Panthers my first choice would have been starting fresh with a rookie over Darnold if that were an option but I don't think Darnold was a terrible back up plan.
Lastly I also continue to believe YPA is one of the most wildly misused statistics out there. Tua had a crazy high YPA at Bama because he had insane WRs with crazy high YPC. Notice he didn't bring those WRs with him to Miami. It's not rocket science. If you don't have downfield WRs you are going to have a lower YPA irrespective of aggressiveness and deep passing ability.
But there were big question marks on those guys. Would I love to have Josh Allen in hindsight? Sure. And I really liked Jackson, though he would have been a disaster here.
And on Josh Allen, you have seen some of his sacks right? He takes some really dumb risks sometimes. I think he has lost more yardage in sacks than anyone in the NFL... lol. Let's not pretend he still doesn't have some work to do. And that's on a better team right now than the Giants.
Anyway, here's to hoping Jones proves he's the guy this year... lol
Pretty much. Should Jones fail this year that pretty much means 3 years of first round picks were wrong.
As for wanting Allen in hindsight, there were plenty here who wanted the giants to take him over Barkley. And another contingent who wanted SB and then wait until the 2020 draft for a QB.
I've said from his the time Jones was drafted he'll be compared to three years of QB draft classes: 18, 19, 20; the two years most wanted to take a QB and the year he was actually drafted.
Lastly I also continue to believe YPA is one of the most wildly misused statistics out there. Tua had a crazy high YPA at Bama because he had insane WRs with crazy high YPC. Notice he didn't bring those WRs with him to Miami. It's not rocket science. If you don't have downfield WRs you are going to have a lower YPA irrespective of aggressiveness and deep passing ability.
It seems to be more misused by fans and talking heads than NFL people though. At the Combine a few years ago, one of the breakout sessions was about advanced statistics, and a question was asked about AY/A and the panel had a person from the Pats, the Broncos and the Ravens on it. All three of them talked about how it is a very poor stat without context. They talked about gameplans where they would intentionally shorten the field or control the clock which artificially impacts certain stats. The guy from the Pats said that Brady had about as many years with average AY/A as he did above average AY/A and the guy from the Ravens joked that he wasn't sure Flacco ever had an above average AY/A, but for the Ravens offense, it was considered efficient.
All three also talked about how advanced stats are being used by non-league groups to illustrate their expertise in understanding the game, but that they really should provide them with context as well as work with teams to learn the targets they have or if the stat even matters in the grand scheme of things. The Bronco guy said that "number crunching" has a purpose, but that for each team that purpose is different as well as the information each team finds important is different and the other two guys voiced their approval.
Does it not concern you at all, that despite his stats fitting your criteria, that the level of his competition is different?
I've followed North Dakota State, mainly because a good friend of mine is a JMU fan (their main competition for the Division 1 National Championship seemingly every year).
I talked, in that other thread, about Daniel Jones having a similar skillset/build/height as Trey Lance. What if Daniel Jones had played at North Dakota St? Or JMU for that matter, and Trey Lance had played at Duke?
JMU is really good, but they are not Clemson. That doesn't give you pause, at all?
That's why Lance is so highly regarded. On his best day, Jones isn't in the same stratosphere physically as Lance.
So yeah, 28 TD's is good. But they were blowing teams out, and you know that.
If Lance were there at 11 (he won't be), to me the decision looks like this:
1. Stick with Jones in year 3. Hope he gets better but the decision to pay or not to pay is soon arriving
OR
2. Draft Lance, trade Jones. Reset the QB rookie contract clock. We know Lance has superior physical traits (arm strength and agility)...will he be as poor mentally as Jones has been?
To me, that's an easy decision. Option 2.
But Jones was as poor against his college competition as any first round QB of the last ten years. Wouldn't that give you even more pause?
I don't think you trade Jones right away in that scenario, though. Instead, I think you have a real QB competition and may the best man win, then trade the other mid-season on next offseason.
Because the roster is much improved, IMO, from when we drafted Jones... ie: easier to insert a young QB without him getting his sh-t kicked in, this would be a decision I could understand.
I don't think you trade Jones right away in that scenario, though. Instead, I think you have a real QB competition and may the best man win, then trade the other mid-season on next offseason.
Because the roster is much improved, IMO, from when we drafted Jones... ie: easier to insert a young QB without him getting his sh-t kicked in, this would be a decision I could understand.
I definitely agree with this.
But Jones was as poor against his college competition as any first round QB of the last ten years. Wouldn't that give you even more pause?
Well again, it's sort of context based.
Let me put it this way, Duke is a small fish in a big pond in terms of competition, while ND St. is a big fish in a small pond, so to say.
North Dakota St. is the cream of the crop in Division 1. They compete for the National Title almost every year, Carson Wentz years as well. They are loaded. Go back and look at how badly they dominate every year.
Duke, on the other hand, faces the best competition in the nation, on the largest stage, but they are not on the same tier as their competition as a program.
Put Trey Lance at Duke. You think he does that much better than Daniel Jones, just by measuring the level of Duke the program vs. the rest of the ACC programs?
Some of you you have seen enough of Jones to be done. You have made your point. We get what you are trying to say. You don't have to put lipstick on it.
We find out at the end of the season.
At least we've seen Lance be excellent on a football field. No one's ever seen that from Jones.
I don't think Daniel Jones going in the first round shocked everybody. I think he was considered a 1st round pick by most. The debate was not whether he was a 1st round pick, but whether he would have been there for us at 17 or not.
And based on that, if he was so poor why would be be considered a 1st round pick at all?
$26M guaranteed in the contract he signed w/ the Eagles in 2016.
$15M guaranteed in the contract he signed w/ the Cards in 2018.
That's $91M in guaranteed money.
According to Forbes (just looked it up) he made a total of $129M in his underwhelming career.
83 career games played (adds up to approximately 5 total full seasons basically). That means he averaged over $1.5M per game, all for a career passer rating of about 84.
I know QB contracts have been and are going up and up and up, but considering the time he played in and his skill level as a QB those numbers are ridiculous.
So yeah, 28 TD's is good. But they were blowing teams out, and you know that.
Madison played them very tough in the finals in '20. And were a DiNucci throw away from tying that game on the last play from inside the ten.
And Madison had an excellent D that year but had zero answers for Lance who ran wild. I think he was close to 200 yards rushing...? So he played big in the biggest moment in a very tight game.
Hell, a few years earlier Madison went into NDSt and beat the piss out of them in the playoffs. So Madison has serious pedigree.
Again, going the entire year without an INT is unbelievable. With all of the possibilities of tipped passes, deflections, receivers slipping, wrong routes, etc that is quite a feat.
Can you say the same about Duke vs. Clemson?
This is a really good question, and I can't answer it for certain. I liked him better in that draft than Haskins and Lock, but as it looks right now all three guys were misses. It may just have been a case of a year where no good QBs came out, and the pundits eventually talked themselves into a guy in Jones who looks the part and was coached by Cutcliffe.
If you think about it, the Giants have been really bad at drafting QBs post-Eli. I may be wrong but I don't think a QB they drafted since 2005 even stuck around as a backup. It may have been a big blind spot that developed as the nature of the passing game changed so much over the course of Eli's long career.
That's why I'm anxious to get a bring in a new QB that is scouted and evaluated under Judge's methodology and ethos. I'd have a lot more confidence in a QB he brought in than one brought in by Mara/Gettleman/Accorsi to recreate some romanticized vision of Eli Manning or Bert Jones in 2019.
I would have thought you would love to try to use up DJ on this rookie contract while we build out a team.
I would have thought you would love to try to use up DJ on this rookie contract while we build out a team.
I haven't switched. I believe that more than ever. The thing is, Jones isn't any good. Further, I believe there's a good chance the Giants will use him less as a runner this year, as a reaction to his injury last year.
It's academic, obviously. They are going to "give" him this year (I hate that thinking), and none of the 1st round QBs worth looking at are going to drop to us anyway.
But if for whatever reason Lance falls to us...do it.
Whether anyone chooses to believe that or not doesn't matter, imo arguing that the NYG overdrafted Jones is a brainless position to take 1 full year after it was apparent to everyone with eyes that Jones clearly displayed the talent of a first round pick. I will raise your 28 tds and 0 ints at NDSU with 13 tds and 0 ints in the red zone as a rookie in the NFL whose #1 receiver was a 5th round rookie.
A good rookie year doesn't mean he will end up having a good career but it certainly validated the talent evaluation. And a sophmore slump doesn't invalidate it (again imo).
And leading the league in fumbles again as a sophomore while watching his TD passes decline precipitously (along with the NYG points per game) isn't helping that cause.
He is getting Year 3 and the hope is that things improve immensely. But if they don't, Jones may not be able to even get his parking pass validated at MetLife in 2022...
And leading the league in fumbles again as a sophomore while watching his TD passes decline precipitously (along with the NYG points per game) isn't helping that cause.
He is getting Year 3 and the hope is that things improve immensely. But if they don't, Jones may not be able to even get his parking pass validated at MetLife in 2022...
I'm pretty sure what validates him getting drafted where he did is that he'd still be the 2nd QB off the board in a redraft of his draft class. Or should they have not drafted a QB in 2019?
And no, imv they should not have drafted a QB in 2019 if they still had Eli Manning on the payroll as their starter.
The most productive QBs to date are Murray, then a pretty big drop off to Minshew and Jones.
Each year there are a handful of QB’s that get drafted and hyped. Jones was one of those players in 2019.
I don’t believe for a second Wilson, Fields, Lance & Mac Jones will all pan out. But, they will all be drafted in the first round.
This is the thing everyone seems to forget. The Giants absolutely would've gone Darnold if they had chosen to go QB in 2018. So many people remember history as "of course the Giants would've taken Josh Allen, but passed on him for a RB." Yeah, maybe if Dave Gettleman had a crystal ball he would've taken Josh Allen (but then that would mean a whole lot of our other problems would also be solved)-- no one knew he was going to be the best QB of that draft, which is exactly why he was the 3rd QB off the board. At the time, the discussion was clearly between Mayfield and Darnold for who the best QB was.
So glad we have Barkley right now instead of Darnold.
I think the beats were hedging to Darnold and Rosen but not confirmed.
And if Eli retired, the Giants could have also gone QB in free agency and still passed on this group.
Each year there are a handful of QB’s that get drafted and hyped. Jones was one of those players in 2019.
I don’t believe for a second Wilson, Fields, Lance & Mac Jones will all pan out. But, they will all be drafted in the first round.
True, but that doesn't make the Jones selection "right" with the misery-loves-company defense.
Mac Jones isn't a first round talent, IMV, and he's about to be as over-drafted like DJ. He's just not talented enough to warrant the investment.
However, if I was a fan of the teams that draft Fields, Lance, Wilson and Lawrence, I'd feel good that they all have skills that warrant a high investment.
And leading the league in fumbles again as a sophomore while watching his TD passes decline precipitously (along with the NYG points per game) isn't helping that cause.
He is getting Year 3 and the hope is that things improve immensely. But if they don't, Jones may not be able to even get his parking pass validated at MetLife in 2022...
That's fair.
He's not even in the top 20 of most turnovers in a season? Eli Manning is on the list 3 times. Nor is he the most ever from a rookie. He didn't even have the most turnovers in 2019, Jameis Winston did.
2003 Ole Miss with Eli had 34.0 PPG. 29/10 TD/INT ratio. 8.5 AY/A. 2004 Ole Miss had 19.5 PPG. The leader in QB snaps for Ole Miss in 04 had a 5.5 AY/A and a 6 TD/10 INT ratio.
I don't have a point here, really. I don't follow college ball and I know there are a ton of moving variables. But I recall Eli's teammates at Ole Miss were criticized as well (but not to the same degree as Jones').
Pick your favorite among these fumbles and/or turnover achievements...
-Jones had 18 fumbles as a rookie. That led all players in the NFL. Jones lost 11 of those to the opposition, making him the only player to lose double-digit fumbles in 2019.
-Historically, Jones’ fumble statistic in 2019 was the most by an NFL player since Dante Culpepper coughed it up 23 times back in 2002.
-Jones' 18 fumbles, the fifth-highest mark in NFL history, was in 816 offensive snaps, or one fumble every 45.3 snaps.
-In Jones' first 20 career starts the turnover count was 35, a pace matched in the past 22 years by only former San Diego Chargers quarterback Ryan Leaf.
-Noting the first 20 because after this game Judge/Garrett clearly reigned in the gameplan which resulted in less actual turnovers but also far less scoring as Jones only accounted for 6 more TDs passing/running over his final 6 games. Fabulous...
-Jones also had at least one turnover in 20 of his first 21 NFL games.
A little less than fabulous I guess...
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the historic turnover stat from Jones??
Pick your favorite among these fumbles and/or turnover achievements...
-Jones had 18 fumbles as a rookie. That led all players in the NFL. Jones lost 11 of those to the opposition, making him the only player to lose double-digit fumbles in 2019.
-Historically, Jones’ fumble statistic in 2019 was the most by an NFL player since Dante Culpepper coughed it up 23 times back in 2002.
-Jones' 18 fumbles, the fifth-highest mark in NFL history, was in 816 offensive snaps, or one fumble every 45.3 snaps.
-In Jones' first 20 career starts the turnover count was 35, a pace matched in the past 22 years by only former San Diego Chargers quarterback Ryan Leaf.
-Noting the first 20 because after this game Judge/Garrett clearly reigned in the gameplan which resulted in less actual turnovers but also far less scoring as Jones only accounted for 6 more TDs passing/running over his final 6 games. Fabulous...
-Jones also had at least one turnover in 20 of his first 21 NFL games.
You might want to look up the word "historic", Clownshoes.
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didn't validate his #6 overall pick because he threw 24 TDs as a rookie (the majority in really only three starts) while turning the ball over at a NFL historic rate.
And leading the league in fumbles again as a sophomore while watching his TD passes decline precipitously (along with the NYG points per game) isn't helping that cause.
He is getting Year 3 and the hope is that things improve immensely. But if they don't, Jones may not be able to even get his parking pass validated at MetLife in 2022...
I'm pretty sure what validates him getting drafted where he did is that he'd still be the 2nd QB off the board in a redraft of his draft class. Or should they have not drafted a QB in 2019?
The second they made the SB pick they should have waited until 2020 to draft a QB.
none of the good or bad means he is a good player or a bad player yet, it's a mixed bag. But I guess acknowledging any positive is inconvenient if 2 years ago you were convinced drafting him was a mistake and you are looking to expedite the 'told ya so'.
More squeaky sounds from Clownshoes without purpose.
none of the good or bad means he is a good player or a bad player yet, it's a mixed bag. But I guess acknowledging any positive is inconvenient if 2 years ago you were convinced drafting him was a mistake and you are looking to expedite the 'told ya so'.
The turnover stats are facts. And they are indisputable.
Not sure what a NYG team pacing trend represents? But make sure you pace the fumbles and turnovers as well in your calcs, especially against HOF type QBs. Sorry about Nicks and Cruz, but that was years ago.
As mentioned consistently, I want Jones to succeed. But lets not confuse that with what we are working with and what it will take to get there. That's just reality.
The I told ya so's are not productive conversation but happy to converse on any previous player topic if you wish. Since I want DJ to be good, not sure its relevant.
More squeaky sounds from Clownshoes without purpose.
Let me know what above relative to turnovers and fumbles is not fact, or misleading as to context.
The exaggeration comment is especially funny coming from the poster who's reputation is based almost solely defending and bullying from such representations.
The name-calling continues which only tells me you're hurt and will act aggressively in the short term before ultimately look for the eventual...
Agreed. That’s a lot of fumbles and turnovers...
I’d also imagine the 29 in 27 games to start a career is a record.
Krieg - 34 fumbles in 30 games in '89-'90 (1.13/game)
Moon - 29 fumbles in 31 games in '89-'90 (or '90-'91) (.94/game)
Collins - 32 fumbles in 32 games in '01-'02 (1.00/game)
Jones - 29 fumbles in 27 games in '19-'20 (1.07/game)
I did find a guy who was worse than all of them...
Daunte Culpepper fumbled 16, 23, and 16 times in 2001, 2002, and 2003. Incredible.
Defend however, whenever, wherever...
And leading the league in fumbles again as a sophomore while watching his TD passes decline precipitously (along with the NYG points per game) isn't helping that cause.
He is getting Year 3 and the hope is that things improve immensely. But if they don't, Jones may not be able to even get his parking pass validated at MetLife in 2022...
Krieg - 34 fumbles in 30 games in '89-'90 (1.13/game)
Moon - 29 fumbles in 31 games in '89-'90 (or '90-'91) (.94/game)
Collins - 32 fumbles in 32 games in '01-'02 (1.00/game)
Jones - 29 fumbles in 27 games in '19-'20 (1.07/game)
I did find a guy who was worse than all of them...
Daunte Culpepper fumbled 16, 23, and 16 times in 2001, 2002, and 2003. Incredible.
In that 2 year period Krieg had 40 INT. How he made the 1989 Pro Bowl I don’t know. Maybe that should not be a benchmark for how Jones does.
Warren Moon’s INT totals over 3 years was 14, 13, and 21 yet made Pro Bowl all 3 years. The INT% for two of those years exceeded any year of Jones’s career and the third matched what Jones had this year (which was a decline from his rookie year).
Kerry Collins had 30 INT over that time period so a little higher pace than Jones.
Daunte Culpepper was 13-23-11 in INT and he played 11, 16, and 14 games. He did make Pro Bowl in 2003. He was also doing that despite having Randy Moss at WR, who was far better than any WR Jones had in his first two years.
Defend however, whenever, wherever...
Hey Jimmy Clowshoes - it isn't that difficult here.
You posted that Jones has had a historic turnover total. Yet, his turnover totals aren't the highest in history for a season (not even in the top 20 for TURNOVERS), nor is he worst in any specific category.
That isn't defending, it is refuting errant facts.
I get that you might want to use an escape hatch, but those pesky Clownshoes won't fit, right??
It is nor false nor an exaggeration. Sorry that is so difficult for you to logically comprehend as you only look to berate others.
Your chucklehead posts only continue to provide me and others the same ongoing comic relief these days as mentioned before...
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didn't validate his #6 overall pick because he threw 24 TDs as a rookie (the majority in really only three starts) while turning the ball over at a NFL historic rate.
And leading the league in fumbles again as a sophomore while watching his TD passes decline precipitously (along with the NYG points per game) isn't helping that cause.
He is getting Year 3 and the hope is that things improve immensely. But if they don't, Jones may not be able to even get his parking pass validated at MetLife in 2022...
implying?
What do you think Bill?
It is nor false nor an exaggeration. Sorry that is so difficult for you to logically comprehend as you only look to berate others.
Your chucklehead posts only continue to provide me and others the same ongoing comic relief these days as mentioned before...
Again - learn the term "historic" before throwing it around like party favors, Clownshoes.
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In comment 15219357 Jimmy Googs said:
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didn't validate his #6 overall pick because he threw 24 TDs as a rookie (the majority in really only three starts) while turning the ball over at a NFL historic rate.
And leading the league in fumbles again as a sophomore while watching his TD passes decline precipitously (along with the NYG points per game) isn't helping that cause.
He is getting Year 3 and the hope is that things improve immensely. But if they don't, Jones may not be able to even get his parking pass validated at MetLife in 2022...
implying?
What do you think Bill?
I would say it should be imply rather than infer. But I'm old and English evolves, so things might be different now.
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The difference between the two is that imply refers to giving information, while infer refers to receiving information. Imply means to strongly suggest the truth or existence of something that is not expressly stated. The speaker, or someone who is giving information, may imply something.
Thanks Britt
I like it when I can get something out of a thread.
.
fmic doing his thing...
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and support the statement that Jones has been turning the ball over at a historic rate and represent why he hasn't actually validated his #6 overall selection in 2019 (yet).
It is nor false nor an exaggeration. Sorry that is so difficult for you to logically comprehend as you only look to berate others.
Your chucklehead posts only continue to provide me and others the same ongoing comic relief these days as mentioned before...
Again - learn the term "historic" before throwing it around like party favors, Clownshoes.
I think it is more generational than historic[smfh]
Is "doing Googs things" getting banned and trolling the board under a handle for a year while vehemently denying the obvious?? because that's something to be proud of???
Clownshoes.
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In comment 15219970 Jimmy Googs said:
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and support the statement that Jones has been turning the ball over at a historic rate and represent why he hasn't actually validated his #6 overall selection in 2019 (yet).
It is nor false nor an exaggeration. Sorry that is so difficult for you to logically comprehend as you only look to berate others.
Your chucklehead posts only continue to provide me and others the same ongoing comic relief these days as mentioned before...
Again - learn the term "historic" before throwing it around like party favors, Clownshoes.
I think it is more generational than historic[smfh]
Ha, I was thinking the same thing ie: historical/generational.
Krieg - 34 fumbles in 30 games in '89-'90 (1.13/game)
Moon - 29 fumbles in 31 games in '89-'90 (or '90-'91) (.94/game)
Collins - 32 fumbles in 32 games in '01-'02 (1.00/game)
Jones - 29 fumbles in 27 games in '19-'20 (1.07/game)
I did find a guy who was worse than all of them...
Daunte Culpepper fumbled 16, 23, and 16 times in 2001, 2002, and 2003. Incredible.
Not an enviable stat to be grouped in with these QBs.
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In comment 15219980 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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In comment 15219970 Jimmy Googs said:
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and support the statement that Jones has been turning the ball over at a historic rate and represent why he hasn't actually validated his #6 overall selection in 2019 (yet).
It is nor false nor an exaggeration. Sorry that is so difficult for you to logically comprehend as you only look to berate others.
Your chucklehead posts only continue to provide me and others the same ongoing comic relief these days as mentioned before...
Again - learn the term "historic" before throwing it around like party favors, Clownshoes.
I think it is more generational than historic[smfh]
Ha, I was thinking the same thing ie: historical/generational.
Historic, at least on sports stats terms, doesn't necessarily need to be the first time a milestone is accomplished.
Getting 3000 hits in MLB is an historic achievement, even though it's been done before. But it's the rarity that makes it historic.
I'd say "historically bad" would probably be the better term to use. It holds more of a "it's the worst since ..." Sense rather than the "worst all time"
interceptions are problem for a host of different reasons that are fundamental to QB performance - bad decision making, poor accuracy, etc.
example - if I were a Bengal fan, I'd be a lot more encouraged by Burrow only throwing 5 ints in 10 games than his 9 fumbles in 10 games.
this is also where the "historic turnovers" argument becomes specious because while Jones' rookie year fumbles were extremely high his INTs have actually been pretty low, especially compared to other QBs in their first 2 years. Peyton Manning had more INTs in year 1 than Jones has in years 1 + 2 combined. Jones has thrown fewer INTs in his first 2 years than any 2 consecutive years of Eli's career. His 2020 INT% (2.2%) was essentially the same as Russell Wilson (2.3%), Kyler Murray (2.2%), Brady (2.0%), and in the top half of all qualified passers (17th/35).
So even if you weight fumbles and ints equally like most of Jones' performance to date his turnover numbers are a mixed bag, though imo the low INT numbers are more of a positive than the high fumble numbers a negative (especially since there was big improvement in 2020).
However, a QB that continues to fumble the ball at league-leading rates shows lack of pocket awareness, and also slower decision-making to release the ball or scramble. Big problems.
Jones has had major issue thus far with turnovers, especially fumbles. It's an issue that must be corrected if he wants to stay in the league as a starting qb.
I'm sure reasonable sides can agree without fussing over terms.
Fix the o-line, and the fumbles will be cut in half.
Fix the o-line, and the fumbles will be cut in half.
That's wrong and you are so full of crap.
Fumbles happen in a vacuum. Everyone knows that.
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In comment 15220008 section125 said:
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In comment 15219980 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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In comment 15219970 Jimmy Googs said:
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and support the statement that Jones has been turning the ball over at a historic rate and represent why he hasn't actually validated his #6 overall selection in 2019 (yet).
It is nor false nor an exaggeration. Sorry that is so difficult for you to logically comprehend as you only look to berate others.
Your chucklehead posts only continue to provide me and others the same ongoing comic relief these days as mentioned before...
Again - learn the term "historic" before throwing it around like party favors, Clownshoes.
I think it is more generational than historic[smfh]
Ha, I was thinking the same thing ie: historical/generational.
Historic, at least on sports stats terms, doesn't necessarily need to be the first time a milestone is accomplished.
Getting 3000 hits in MLB is an historic achievement, even though it's been done before. But it's the rarity that makes it historic.
I'd say "historically bad" would probably be the better term to use. It holds more of a "it's the worst since ..." Sense rather than the "worst all time"
Scooter I agree. And the figures above clearly show that Jones is fumbling at a historically bad rate.
Oh my, the drama for no particular reason other than to take a shot and be rude.
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In comment 15220062 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 15220008 section125 said:
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In comment 15219980 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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In comment 15219970 Jimmy Googs said:
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and support the statement that Jones has been turning the ball over at a historic rate and represent why he hasn't actually validated his #6 overall selection in 2019 (yet).
It is nor false nor an exaggeration. Sorry that is so difficult for you to logically comprehend as you only look to berate others.
Your chucklehead posts only continue to provide me and others the same ongoing comic relief these days as mentioned before...
Again - learn the term "historic" before throwing it around like party favors, Clownshoes.
I think it is more generational than historic[smfh]
Ha, I was thinking the same thing ie: historical/generational.
Historic, at least on sports stats terms, doesn't necessarily need to be the first time a milestone is accomplished.
Getting 3000 hits in MLB is an historic achievement, even though it's been done before. But it's the rarity that makes it historic.
I'd say "historically bad" would probably be the better term to use. It holds more of a "it's the worst since ..." Sense rather than the "worst all time"
Scooter I agree. And the figures above clearly show that Jones is fumbling at a historically bad rate.
Oh my, the drama for no particular reason other than to take a shot and be rude.
I've witnessed you be rude in your "short" stint here as well.
interceptions are problem for a host of different reasons that are fundamental to QB performance - bad decision making, poor accuracy, etc.
example - if I were a Bengal fan, I'd be a lot more encouraged by Burrow only throwing 5 ints in 10 games than his 9 fumbles in 10 games.
this is also where the "historic turnovers" argument becomes specious because while Jones' rookie year fumbles were extremely high his INTs have actually been pretty low, especially compared to other QBs in their first 2 years. Peyton Manning had more INTs in year 1 than Jones has in years 1 + 2 combined. Jones has thrown fewer INTs in his first 2 years than any 2 consecutive years of Eli's career. His 2020 INT% (2.2%) was essentially the same as Russell Wilson (2.3%), Kyler Murray (2.2%), Brady (2.0%), and in the top half of all qualified passers (17th/35).
So even if you weight fumbles and ints equally like most of Jones' performance to date his turnover numbers are a mixed bag, though imo the low INT numbers are more of a positive than the high fumble numbers a negative (especially since there was big improvement in 2020).
I'd argue fumbles are worse than an INT because you are almost always giving the opposing offense better field position with a fumble than you are with an INT. About the only exception would be a red zone fumble versus an INT in the end zone that goes for a touchback. If it is 3rd and 25 and the QB airs it 60 yards down the field because nobody is open but it is picked and the defender is then tackled or falls out of bounds after making catch that is almost better than a punt.
Recall it came to the forefront of NY Giant fans during his first couple preseason games. He threw the ball really well with scripted plays and good accuracy, but the ball came loose a handful of times in only a small amount of drives.
It seemed to escalate from there his entire rookie year, and while declining his second year has still remained at way too high a rate. Agree that it goes beyond pass protection.
I think the turning point for Eli may have been the hit he took against Washington in 2016. Thank Weston Richburg for that.
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fumble. Eli knew when to hold em and when to fold him. He made a lot of business decisions towards the end. Some called him gutless for, but the alternative might be what you're seeing from Jones.
I think the turning point for Eli may have been the hit he took against Washington in 2016. Thank Weston Richburg for that.
That is an astute observation, and it very well could be. That was a vicious shot.
Agree with this. But simply being hit less will cut down a lot of those fumbles significantly. But he does need to protect the ball better as well.
Luckily he seems to do a good job of that as a runner. His main problems with fumbling tend to be when he holds the ball too long in the pocket or behind the LOS.
That's different than how the 2 events should be viewed from the standpoint of grading those events against a QB. If a QB get's hit because an OL misses an assignment and fumbles, that's a lot less of a reflection on his capability as a player than throwing a ball he shouldn't have that gets picked off - even though the outcome of the first scenario ends up worse in terms of field position.
Jones worst plays this past year were the INTs he forced early in the season as opposed to just throwing the ball away. Had he fumbled on those same exact plays the field position may have been better for the opposition but that doesn't make the bad decision to throw the ball less bad. In many of those situations taking the sack was the right decision though obviously you wouldn't want to negate that correct decision with a fumble.
Krieg - 34 fumbles in 30 games in '89-'90 (1.13/game)
Moon - 29 fumbles in 31 games in '89-'90 (or '90-'91) (.94/game)
Collins - 32 fumbles in 32 games in '01-'02 (1.00/game)
Jones - 29 fumbles in 27 games in '19-'20 (1.07/game)
I did find a guy who was worse than all of them...
Daunte Culpepper fumbled 16, 23, and 16 times in 2001, 2002, and 2003. Incredible.
Wow. Jones has got to be able to improve on this while still finding ways to lift up his game and the Offense. Some of the free agent additions and hopefully some more investment in the OL during the draft will also help.
But there is no debate, this is historically bad.
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Ball security prior to the NFL. How he carries the ball needed work, probably play to play awareness as well. Bad pass protection certainly plays its role. From my view there are issues beyond pass protection that need attention to get past this fumbling issue.
Agree with this. But simply being hit less will cut down a lot of those fumbles significantly. But he does need to protect the ball better as well.
Luckily he seems to do a good job of that as a runner. His main problems with fumbling tend to be when he holds the ball too long in the pocket or behind the LOS.
Britt, my main hope for Jones is that he seems to want to get better and from all accounts works hard.
Secondary is this coaching staff, their emphasis on teaching gives me hope as well. Grouping a coaching staff that is all about proper teaching with a player that wants to work, and accepts teaching can go a really long way, although, and it must be said, guarantees nothing.
I hope you are well.
Jones has had major issue thus far with turnovers, especially fumbles. It's an issue that must be corrected if he wants to stay in the league as a starting qb.
Yep, a must and that will go a long way in validating his selection as the #6 overall pick...
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Jones has had major issue thus far with turnovers, especially fumbles. It's an issue that must be corrected if he wants to stay in the league as a starting qb.
Yep, a must and that will go a long way in validating his selection as the #6 overall pick...
Certainly, Missing on a top five pick or right outside the top 5 is a tough blow. At the very least in my opinion you want an impact player, while hoping for a HOF player.
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In comment 15220138 crick n NC said:
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Jones has had major issue thus far with turnovers, especially fumbles. It's an issue that must be corrected if he wants to stay in the league as a starting qb.
Yep, a must and that will go a long way in validating his selection as the #6 overall pick...
Certainly, Missing on a top five pick or right outside the top 5 is a tough blow. At the very least in my opinion you want an impact player, while hoping for a HOF player.
Yep on impact. And the reality is many of us are really just hoping our #6 pick improves enough to solidify his starting job in Year 3.
Otherwise, the Giants have less options and must consider yet another QB in 2022...
That's different than how the 2 events should be viewed from the standpoint of grading those events against a QB. If a QB get's hit because an OL misses an assignment and fumbles, that's a lot less of a reflection on his capability as a player than throwing a ball he shouldn't have that gets picked off - even though the outcome of the first scenario ends up worse in terms of field position.
Jones worst plays this past year were the INTs he forced early in the season as opposed to just throwing the ball away. Had he fumbled on those same exact plays the field position may have been better for the opposition but that doesn't make the bad decision to throw the ball less bad. In many of those situations taking the sack was the right decision though obviously you wouldn't want to negate that correct decision with a fumble.
If you are looking at total turnovers, I would rather have a QB whose turnovers are more interception based than fumble based. Not all interceptions are created equal just as not all fumbles are created equal. With an interception, if the QB is making the right read and puts it in the right spot, but the TE has it his hands and it goes righto into defender's arms that is not on the QB. If the QB is trying to make a play that has little hope of success rather than throwing it away and living for the next down or misreads basic coverage schemes that worries me about a QB. Similarly if a fumble is caused because his blindside is not giving QB any time and D makes a great play on a ball that is being held properly that is hard to blame on a QB. The problem with Jones is that too many fumbles were due to holding onto the ball too long, not accounting for blindside, and overall being too easy to separate the ball from. If we are going to exercise the 5th year option, those fumbles need to really drop.
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In comment 15220373 Jimmy Googs said:
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In comment 15220138 crick n NC said:
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Jones has had major issue thus far with turnovers, especially fumbles. It's an issue that must be corrected if he wants to stay in the league as a starting qb.
Yep, a must and that will go a long way in validating his selection as the #6 overall pick...
Certainly, Missing on a top five pick or right outside the top 5 is a tough blow. At the very least in my opinion you want an impact player, while hoping for a HOF player.
Yep on impact. And the reality is many of us are really just hoping our #6 pick improves enough to solidify his starting job in Year 3.
Otherwise, the Giants have less options and must consider yet another QB in 2022...
Yep, exciting, yet Nerve-racking year in regards to the starting qb position for nyg.
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I thought your schtick was all about drafting young QB's with the ability to run, using them up/discarding them and allocating the salary cap to a balanced roster (with almost no high paid players, except those who are ELITE being the only ones deserving).
I would have thought you would love to try to use up DJ on this rookie contract while we build out a team.
I haven't switched. I believe that more than ever. The thing is, Jones isn't any good. Further, I believe there's a good chance the Giants will use him less as a runner this year, as a reaction to his injury last year.
It's academic, obviously. They are going to "give" him this year (I hate that thinking), and none of the 1st round QBs worth looking at are going to drop to us anyway.
But if for whatever reason Lance falls to us...do it.
The way the Giants are currently setup actually makes the most sense and building a balanced team around DJ is actually what aligns with your preference. If DJ doesn't perform this year, they are not financially committed to him and they can just as easily look to drafting or acquiring another QB.
He's never had a balanced team around him. You never said that these young QB's with running ability were also going to be Franchise players - because then you do run the risk of losing your franchise when they go down. You can't have it both ways.
This. He’ll get another year to do so.
Right now there's not much to do - Jones is going to be the guy. There is no backup to sign to challenge him, and Lance seems unlikely to be there at 11. If Lance were available I think picking Lance and trading Jones makes a ton of sense.
Not happening though.
Then what happened was...I stopped being a fucking toddler.
Once he came to camp he was a Giant, he had a good rookie year. They fired the coaches, installed a new offense with Covid remote learning, Barkley got injured and he had a terrible sophomore season. Piss fucking poor.
I could have spent this off-season whining that I was right on draft day.
But...The kid can actually play. I throw out last year for the ENTIRE FUCKING COUNTRY. I don't judge students, businesses or any fucking body because life was so fucking hard for all of us.
Let's let the chips fall where they may in 2021. If he is 2020 bad he can GTFO. If he has a good year.
GREAT FOR ALL GIANT FANS!!!!!
Chill out have a beer or smoke a fatty depending on where you live.
That's being critical but also being realistic.
Not working out too bad. And I still get to enjoy rooting for the team.
How's that working out for you?
You live rent free in their heads GT.
That's being critical but also being realistic.
Brown nose...
Link - ( New Window )
If you watch the play linked below (against Virginia Tech) it's hard not to think about the late and inaccurate throw to Dion Lewis on the critical 2-point conversion against Tampa.
"One area where Jones must improve is his processing." - ( New Window )
No one disagrees.
No one.
He is getting year 3 no matter what QB is there at 11.
Find me anyone believes differently.
Does it cause you any pause that you are alone on your hill except for a few BBI posters that are consistently negative on all things related to Dave Gettleman?
Jones was my remote throw pick. He was the absolute last QB I wanted. I would have happily had Haskins. I wanted Rosen the year before. Jones had a decent rookie. I was impressed by the actual throws he made.
Isn't it possible his sophomore season slump was impacted by a change of coaching staff, covid remote learning, almost completely new OL, losing his best offensive player and a bottom of the NFL group?
That makes sense to everyone but you.
He gets year 3.
End of story.
I realize that's the Giants' strategy. It's just a bad strategy.
I realize that's the Giants' strategy. It's just a bad strategy.
That is the strategy nearly every team employs when it comes to a drafted QB. Who is Kyler Murray's backup? Who was Goff's backup? Who did the Redskins have to bring in this coming year because Haskins failed? who was Darnold's backup?
Highly drafted QB's are going to get a certain amount of time to develop, especially if they have flashed or sustained good play.
You act like this is a strategy the Giants employ that is somehow different from the norm, and it is disingenuous at best. But it's what you do.
Haskins...Ron Rivera brought his guy (Kyle Allen) with him from Carolina because he knew Haskins was a problem. You know the conversation between Rivera and Snyder went like this: "I know you hand picked Haskins. I'll start the season with him, but I'm bringing someone I'm familiar with from Carolina with me because I don't trust Haskins. The moment he fucks up, he's out." And that's exactly what happened.
And Darnold...that's the cautionary tale! Don't be like the Jets and have no plan in case the draft pick sucks.
Jones has been poor these two years. Poor. I'm sorry you can't (or don't want to) see it.
Maybe the breakdown linked below (written June 30, 2020 BEFORE his nightmare second season) will help you see the light.
True or False: Is Daniel Jones a franchise quarterback? - ( New Window )
"While Jones looks the part off the field and before the snap, he struggles mentally between the whistles.
His decent mobility and average are strength are not adequate to compensate for this flaw."
Tell me that's not what we've seen after two seasons.
Link - ( New Window )
Go Terps : 2:21 pm : link : reply
Kyler Murray has passed and rushed for 61 TDs in 2 seasons. Jared Goff had a 28/7, 8.5 AY/A season in year two, going 11-4 as a starter. Those are not two guys you want to compare Jones to, because he only looks terrible by comparison.
You called Jones a scholarship player GOING INTO LAST YEAR. You wanted him challenged in year 2 by a mediocre backup.
Nick Mullens.
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FMIC
Go Terps : 2:21 pm : link : reply
Kyler Murray has passed and rushed for 61 TDs in 2 seasons. Jared Goff had a 28/7, 8.5 AY/A season in year two, going 11-4 as a starter. Those are not two guys you want to compare Jones to, because he only looks terrible by comparison.
You called Jones a scholarship player GOING INTO LAST YEAR. You wanted him challenged in year 2 by a mediocre backup.
Nick Mullens.
Don't forget trading Jones and drafting a player who every talking head says needs a redshirt year in 2021 (Trey Lance) and who may never be as good as what we have in Jones
And Mullens is a better player than Jones. Doesn't make him Johnny Unitas, but you don't have to be very good to be better than Jones. Mullens was poor in 2020, and he was still better than Jones was. It's a very low bar.
Just look at the game in Philly this year, I do not see Mullens executing to the extent Jones did. Which included almost a 90 yard TD run and some very nice throws (including the Engram drop).
The 2nd Philly game as well. It included a nice TD run from Jones and some really high level throws.
Going by eyeball test alone, Jones is the better player. Mullens is also unsigned I believe. There is no way Daniel Jones would be sitting on his couch unsigned if he was a free agent.
I wouldn't really view those guys as competition on day one.
I wouldn't really view those guys as competition on day one.
It's tough to have warning signs on hypothetical situations.
What we know is that GT openly advocates to bring in a backup to challenge for the job, and he would expect them to win it.
I'd expect Jones to be able to beat those guys out.
I wouldn't really view those guys as competition on day one.
If you look at the numbers, Mike Glennon is comparable to Tyrod Taylor and Jacoby Brissett at a fraction of the price. Why overpay for a back-up who may or may not be better than your starting QB because if he isn't better that it is a lot of unnecessary cap space. The difference of Glennon vs. what Taylor or Brissett would cost is equivalent to multiple C.J. Board's vs. UDFA Rookie
I think Jones is a bad game manager QB. He'll turn the ball over and needs some big, explosive plays to compensate for it. Which is fine, but we need to modify the offense accordingly. It's why I hated Garrett's 2020 offense for him.
I think the Giants did the right thing prioritizing other positions over backup QB. And I'm 'fine' with Glennon. But I'd have liked a better option.
I doubt it will be a competition. Brissett will be the backup and if Tua fails, they will bring in a new starter completely.
I think Jones is a bad game manager QB. He'll turn the ball over and needs some big, explosive plays to compensate for it. Which is fine, but we need to modify the offense accordingly. It's why I hated Garrett's 2020 offense for him.
I think the Giants did the right thing prioritizing other positions over backup QB. And I'm 'fine' with Glennon. But I'd have liked a better option.
Glennon has more INT, but his TD% was higher despite far inferior talent than Brissett had. Brissett was also not asked to throw as much down the field as Glennon. Taylor also had low INT, but he also had low TD% and the last time he played as many games as Glennon did in 2020 was 2017. I am also concerned about Taylor's high sack totals. The only time Glennon had more than 3 sacks per game was his rookie year in 2013. He has never been known for his mobility, but despite Jacksonville's weak OL he only had 9 sacks in 5 games last year. Throwing out last year because it was basically 1 start, in 2018 he had 13 sacks in 85 pass attempts over 4 games (3 starts). That is really bad. In 2017 he had 46 sacks in 15 games (14 starts). In 2016 he had 42 sacks in 15 games (15 starts).
I was satisfied with the Glennon signing - McCoy was far too limited physically IMO.
I was satisfied with the Glennon signing - McCoy was far too limited physically IMO.
Yes you are trading off INT's with Glennon for more ability to go down the field and he is more likely to throw the ball away than take a sack
The picture is comprehensive. I'm not making it up, and I'm not lacking for evidence.
The picture is comprehensive. I'm not making it up, and I'm not lacking for evidence.
You still just don't get it do you?
Nobody is saying Jones doesn't have work to do. Nobody is saying he's a great QB. Most reasonable people realize he's getting this year to prove that he can be the guy.
What you are saying, and have been saying is that your view of him is indisputably correct. That you know more than those who have worked with him daily. That you know the outcome and that Jones is just on the roster out of hubris by the GM.
You've convinced yourself - I'm not sure why you think everyone else needs to be on board with you.
It is borderline psychotic at this point.
The irony in this statement by Clownshoes is shocking!