EDGE
Format includes a quick position overview, my grading scale and what the number means, the summary and final grade from my final report on my top 15, a quick additional note on the player, and my ranks 16-30 with grades only.
*I AM NOT DOING NFL COMPARISONS
QUICK POSITION OVERVIEW
The edge role in this defense is a little subjective. It is such a hybrid front. Just so you know, the current NYG names I have in this group are Lorenzo Carter, Ifeadi Odenigbo, Cam Brown, Carter Coughlin, Oshane Ximines, and Trent Harris. Not a very intimidating group of pass rushers here. While the Graham-scheme has a way of producing pressure via different blitz packages in addition to one of the top interior pass rushing threats in the league in Leonard Williams, this is a major hole. Carter was supposed to show us in 2020 if he was going to the answer or not, but a season ending Achilles tendon injury suffered in October ended that idea. Ximines didn’t play much in his sophomore season before injuring his shoulder week 4 and missing the rest of the year. Kyler Fackrell played the versatile BUCK role, which saw him interchange between inside and outside roles, but he is now with the Chargers. Jabaal Sheard was signed in-season and occasionally flashed, but he likely won’t return. The signing of Odenigbo was an interesting one. After the 2019 season, many believed he was on the cusp of really breaking out into a 10+ sack per year guy. He didn’t follow through, however.
Overall, this edge group lacks a true stud that can make a difference week in, week out. While there is still some hope from guys on their rookie contracts in Carter and Ximines, odds are they won’t step up to be what this defense needs. And to be real about the likes of Brown and Coughlin, they’re shots in the dark at this point.
GRADING SCALE
90+ All Pro Projection
85+: Pro Bowl Projection
81-84: 1st rounder – should be able to play right away
79-80: 2nd rounder – Should be able to rotate right away – Year 2 starter
77-78: 3rd rounder – Should be able to rotate by end of rookie year – Year 2/3 starter
74-76: Early Day 3 – Special Teams – Future backup/possible starter
71-73: Mid Day 3 – Special Teams – Future backup / gamble starter
68-70: Late Day 3 – Back end of roster / Practice Squad / Development guy
65-67: Preferred UDFA
60-64: Undrafted FA
TOP 15 GRADES AND ANALYSIS
1. Kwity Paye / Michigan / 6’4-277
Grade: 85
Summary: Senior entry from Providence, Rhode Island. Three-year starter that earned Honorable Mention All-Big 10 honors in both 2018 and 2019, 2nd team in 2020. A state champion in the long jump and 4x100 relay as a 250-pound senior in high school, Paye has one of the more interesting tool sets in the entire class. He has rare quickness, bend, and agility for his size. He wins a lot of battles with late movement and sheer head-to-toe power. He lined up all over the Michigan front and that is the kind of role he will thrive in at the next level. He has the power presence to play inside the tackle’s shoulder on all downs, but notably against the pass where he can provide elite interior rush. He does need to improve his production as an outside pass rusher, as he seems late and ineffective too often when trying to purely speed rush. Paye will be an ideal fit for a scheme that wants to move their exterior linemen inside at times and also demands serious running game responsibilities. At the very least, he will be elite at that part of the game.
*Paye will be on my short list of prospects that I will want NYG to take at #11. He is an ideal fit for what NYG wants along that defensive front and in the locker room. He doesn’t have the exact same size as Justin Tuck, but I think his style and on-field impact will be very similar. The Michigan defense moved him all over the field because of what he can do. Did it hurt the stats a bit? Sure, but only the ones a casual fan looks at. There is more to DE than sacks. Paye was among the national leader in pressures, and he did it from every angle you can imagine. In addition, he is by far the best run defender in this top 5. Nobody is close. Paye may not have the upfield juice some want but after watching the way this Graham scheme works, I don’t think that is exactly what they need. Last thing, I am not inside the NYG coaching rooms. They may want something else in terms of skill set for the outside, so I could be off in relation to calling him an ideal fit. Just my opinion.
2. Azeez Ojulari / Georgia / 6’2-249
Grade: 84
Summary: Third year sophomore entry from Marietta, Georgia. A two-year starter that earned 2nd Team All SEC honors in 2020. The semifinalist for the Chuck Bednarik Award led the SEC in tackles for loss and sacks in 2020, a year after leading the Bulldogs in sacks and pressures. Ojulari is a mature, hardworking kid that gets the most out of his talents. He won team-awards for most improved player in 2019 as well as one for his efforts during the offseason strength and conditioning program. Ojulari was also a team captain in 2019, the first time a freshman has earned that honor in the Coach Smart era. This is a kid that has high-end talent that can be used in multiple ways for a defense, and it is paired with top notch intangibles. His game really started to blossom as the 2020 season came to a close. He finished with 5 sacks over his last 3 games. Ojulari still has more physical development to achieve, as he will need to add functional weight to play the every down edge in the NFL, but his versatility, talent, and intangibles will make him a dangerous defensive weapon and he can be one of the best when things come together.
*No inside information here. I think Ojulari is on the NYG short list for #11 overall. I’m not exactly sure what NYG is looking to add to their outside pass rush. Do they want a pure burner (what Carter was supposed to turn into, and still can), or do they want an inside-out versatile piece? If it is the former, Ojulari is a very strong possibility. I think he has the best get off in the group. That is a great place to start. I also believe who he is as a person will be exactly what NYG wants to add.
3. Jaelen Phillips / Miami / 6’5-260
Grade: 84
Summary: Fourth year junior from Redlands, California. Two-year starter that split his time between UCLA and Miami. Capped off his career 1st Team All ACC and an All-American honor. Phillips’ early years were marred by injuries to both ankles before a serious wrist injury suffered off the field in a traffic accident that required multiple surgeries. He also sustained multiple concussions at UCLA where some doctors urged him to retire. Phillips was out of the game for a few months with the mindset that his career might be over. He then transferred to Miami, sat out all of 2019 while getting his body back together and awaiting medical clearance. He then went on to break out in the shortened 2020 season, showing real life glimpse of what many thought he could be. Phillips showed some inconsistency early on, but there may not have been a more dominant edge player in the country down the stretch. Over his final 4 games, he finished with 11 TFL and 6.5 sacks. He appears to have turned a corner when it comes to his maturity and showed what he can actually do on the field just in time. Phillips is an every down defender capable of being a dominant force if he keeps his head focused and his body healthy.
*If you are strictly looking at 2020 tape and workout performance plus tools, Phillips is the top EDGE in this class. Someone I work with has him at the top of the group and top 5 overall. Point is Phillips is a prospect that would surprise nobody worth listening to if he ended up being an All Pro player. He has a lot going for him and I think he can fit into every scheme. His medicals (which likely won’t be made public) are essential. I doubt anyone is going to give him a 10 out of 10 on the durability scale, but if NYG does or is even close, he is another name on the short list for #11. My question, and it is more based on tying dots together in a subjective manner rather than facts, he may not be the personality fit NYG wants. Will leave it there.
4. Gregory Rousseau / Miami / 6’7-266
Grade: 81
Summary: Third year sophomore entry from Coconut Creek, Florida. A one-year starter that opted out of the 2020 season. That one year was as good as it gets when looking at production where he led the ACC with 19.5 TFL and 15.5 sacks, leading him to 1st Team All ACC and 2nd Team All American honors. With Rousseau sitting out of 2020 and playing in only 2 games as a freshman before getting injured, his lack of game experience is noteworthy. He played in just 15 games since high school. Rousseau is dripping with disruptive and versatile pass rush talent. He checks several boxes, but there are questions revolving around his movement. There is a lot of tape with him falling off balance, needing recovery steps, and struggling to really change direction sharply. As impressive as he was in 2019, it has to be considered a possibility that he was a one-year wonder. Boom or bust prospect.
*One of the major boom or bust prospects in the class. On one hand, you have to love what he did in 2019, have to love his height and length, and you have to love his straight-line burst. He can be a really dangerous pure upfield rusher both from the outside and inside. On the other hand, how can one invest an early pick in a kid that played 15 games since high school and has pretty poor agility times? I wouldn’t be surprised to see him fall out of round 1 but his upside will likely make someone bite.
5. Joseph Ossai / Texas / 6’4-256
Grade: 81
Summary: Junior entry from Conroe, Texas. Two-year starter that capped off his career with a 1st Team All Big 12 and 1st Team All American campaign, leading the conference and finishing third in the nation with 16 tackles for loss. A native of Nigeria, Ossai moved to the States at the age of 10 and quickly developed into one of the best outside linebacker prospects in the class. He is a blue-collar player with constant hustle and desire whether he is rushing the passer, defending the run, or dropping into coverage. Ossai wins a lot of his battles with quickness post-engagement, bend, and hunger. He has a developing frame that will need to add more bulk and power to make him a multi-dimensional threat as a pass rusher. He is a bit of a project in that department, but the skill set is good enough to factor in the league right now. How much bulk he can add while sustaining his quickness will determine just how high the ceiling gets. His ideal fit is in a 3-4 scheme and should end up being an every down force.
*I had a scout tell me that Ossai had one of the more influential pro day workouts of all the defenders in the class. These workouts do mean something, at the very least. Ossai had a lot of up and down tape from the past two years. It made me watch more and more tape, and my number of games for him went over 15. That is way more than I do for most guys. It was frustrating but also enticing, if that makes sense. If he gets more consistent, you are looking at. Khalil Mack type player. I can’t put him any higher than this though, too many games where he just got overwhelmed by good blocking. Don’t be surprised though if he ends up being a big-time player.
6. Joe Tryon / Washington / 6’5-262
Grade: 80
Summary: Fourth year junior entry from Renton, Washington. One-plus year starter that took over the edge role at the end of 2018 and stayed there in 2019, where he earned 2nd Team All Pac 12 honors. Opted out of the 2020 season. Tryon is a physical freak that wears the pads well. He is more than just an athlete. His engine is always on and will make plays away from the point of attack routinely. He is not someone you want to take a hit from when he has a head full of steam. He matches that physical ability and power with attitude. Tryon is a nasty dude that will immediately elevate the presence of a defense. At his size and speed, Tryon will be intriguing to defenses that like to move their plays around. He is comfortable dropping back into coverage, he is comfortable in space, and he can really defend the run in addition to obviously being a potential menace as an edge rusher. The upside is enormous here but there are concerns over his lack of experience (14 career starts) and he has a long way to go when it comes to developing pro-caliber techniques and rush-versatility.
*Tryon is the kind of guy I see just destined for PIT, NO, or BAL. They value defenders that are just big, fast, and mean. That is how I describe Tryon in the most basic form. He lacks the desired skill set but that can always be acquired with a willing player and coach being on the same page. He is a borderline first rounder that could be in the NYG crosshairs if he falls to their 2nd rounder.
7. Boogie Basham / Wake Forest / 6’3-281
Grade: 80
Summary: Fifth year senior from Roanoke, Virginia. Four-year starter that got into the lineup toward the ends of his freshman season and never looked back. 1st Team All ACC in 2019, 3rd Team in 2020. Basham saw a dip in week-to-week production in his final season. He still accrued 36.5 TFL and 20.5 sacks over his accomplished career. While he isn’t going to win the runway model contests, Basham has the ideal body for an inside-outside versatile lineman that can change his style at the snap of a finger. His power and hand striking are both elite. At the very least, the defense can rely on him to control one or two gaps against the run. Where Basham will surprise from time to time is the ability to reach the passer from any and all angles. His upfield burst won’t win a lot of battles up the edge but what he can do once engaged with a blocker one on one will make an impact. Even if Basham does not end up near the league leaders in traditional production, he is a dirty-work lineman that will make players around him better.
*If NYG wants another crash end (hybrid 3-4/4-3 DE) early in the draft (day 2), I bet Basham is on their list. I’m not sure I see that though, as they like to put Williams there in some looks and Odenigbo will likely be the depth there. There is also an unusual amount of solid crash ends in this class that can be had day 3. Basham is a really good football player though, one that will find a bunch of ways to make an impact for a long time.
8. Jayson Oweh / Penn State / 6’5-257
Grade: 77
Summary: Junior entry from Howell, New Jersey. One-year starter that also spent a season in the heavy rotation. 1st Team All Big 10 in 2020. Oweh is going to catch a lot of eyes as a result of his physical tool set. He is tall, long, strong, and very fast. In fact, he may be one of the fastest and most explosive defenders in the entire class even beyond of the defensive ends. However, Oweh’s play never got to a point where it matched that kind of potential. He started just 8 games over his career, played in just 24 total, and recorded just 1 sack over his final 12 games. Beyond the production, Oweh has a hard time keeping his center of gravity when he needs to react laterally. He needs too many recovery steps and lacks consistent technique. Oweh has sky-high potential but his basement is lower than most. At this point, he is much more of an athlete than he is a football player. He will need a lot of development.
*I was told last summer that Oweh was a name to watch, and he would test out better than Parsons. I didn’t believe it, and I should have. Oweh is one of the more impressive athletes in the entire class. With that said, I’m still not overly impressed with him as a football player. He did accrue some pressures, but they were basically all straight-line speed rushes with minimal skill or power present. I’ve been burned like this before, where I just didn’t think the athlete would turn in to a football player but most of the time, these dudes don’t pan out. Worth a day 2 shot though, I think he goes top 45.
9. Elerson Smith / Northern Iowa / 6’7-262
Grade: 77
Summary: Fifth year senior from Minneapolis, Minnesota. One-year starter that had his senior season canceled because of the Covid-19 pandemic. 1st Team All Missouri Valley Conference and 1st Team AFCA FCS All American in 2019. Smith broke out in his redshirt junior season, netting 21.5 tackles for loss, 14 sacks, 5 forced fumbles, and 2 blocked kicks. He plays the game with a level of ease and smoothness in traffic. He gets off the ball in a hurry with great leverage and upper body positioning, his hands are exceptionally fast, and the foot quickness is elite. Smith is just scratching the surface when it comes to his true potential. He needs to sleep in the weight room for a year before he can be an every down asset, but he will be a solid rotational pass rusher right away and has the upside of being a solid starter in multiple schemes.
*If you haven’t seen Northern Iowa play but you want to get a feel for what this kid looks like on the field, think about Jayson Taylor. He has the really long, borderline thin frame but plays with tremendous burst and bend for a player his size. Smith impressed me a ton at the Senior Bowl in the practice tapes. Really twitchy, plays low to the ground, and easily changes direction. His 2019 tape is something else, too. Good player here that may need more time than others but presents more upside than most guys in this tier.
10. Chris Rumph II / Duke / 6’3-235
Grade: 76
Summary: Fourth year junior from Gainesville, Florida. Two-year starter that was a part of the rotation all three seasons. Ended his career 2nd Team All ACC in 2020. The team captain put together two quality years over 2019 and 2020, combining for 26 TFL and 14.5 sacks. Father coached outside linebackers for the Houston Texans in 2020 and multiple southeastern college programs, including two stints with Alabama. Rumph is an ultra-bendy, long limbed athlete that put together two very productive seasons at Duke. He looks a little light and there is a lack of power presence in his game, but if a team is confident they can add bulk and strength to his game, he has the potential to be an every down force. Athletically he plays with a nice blend of grace, speed, and technique. He is a high upside player that may need to be brought along slowly for a year.
*I struggled with where to put Rumph II in relation to his true position. He won’t be an every down player on the edge, but he can certainly be a pass rusher that stays on the field all three downs. Duke played him at a hybrid LB/EDGE position, majority EDGE. No matter the case, I see him as an attractive day 3 pick that can make an impact right away but it may be 2022 when he can play every down. Really interesting skill set, really interesting knowledge of the game, and he flashed dominant stretches of play.
11. Payton Turner / Houston / 6’5-270
Grade: 75
Summary: Senior entry from Houston, Texas. Three-year starter that earned 2nd Team All AAC honors in 2020. Turner missed his senior year of high school with a knee injury and had his 2018 cut short by a foot injury. His final two-year run, however, netted 18.5 TFL and 9 sacks. Turner started to blossom in 2020, taking his plus-size and overall frame and showing he was learning how to use it. He won’t ever be a pure burner up the edge but if he can continue his path of progression from a skill set perspective, the tools he possesses can make him a solid left defensive end-type and one that can shift inside in specific situations.
*If NYG ignores the EDGE spot on days 1 and 2, but still want a guy that has some inside-out versatility, I think Turner is a really good fit. He plays the run and pass equally well, he has a very moldable frame and tool set, and he is a really good kid. I’ve had some people rave about him. Turner is the kind of player/body type I see Gettleman going after as well, although the more I see, the more I think Judge is the final shot caller with personnel. No matter the case, this is a really nice fit for NYG on day three if the value matches up. I like his upside.
12. Patrick Jones II / Pittsburgh / 6’4-261
Grade: 75
Summary: Fifth year senior from Chesapeake, Virginia. Two-year starter that earned All ACC honors in both 2019 and 2020, 1st Team in 2020. Jones is tall and fast with average length and below average power. He needs further development in the weight room before he can be thrown into every down duty at the next level. With that said, he was a very productive player that totaled 32 TFL and 21 sacks over the past three seasons combined. He has a knack for beating tackles off the edge because of his ability to burst upfield and bend under the blocker’s pads. He is relentless in his approach and will make a lot of hustle plays. The team that gets him needs to be patient and really try to develop the power game. If he gets refined and improved in that facet, he can be a true threat.
*Jones just always left me wanting more. He has the look, he has the upfield burst, and he plays a hyperactive game. But he just doesn’t have a standout physical trait and I don’t love how he moves his lower body sometimes. Seems unstable. I can see why some have him day 2 but I would be much more comfortable bringing him in as a day 3 guy that could be worked with for a year or two.
13. Ronnie Perkins / Oklahoma / 6’3-253
Grade: 75
Summary: Junior entry from St. Louis, Missouri. Three-year starter that was a two-time 2nd Team All-Big 12 honoree. Missed the first 5 games of 2020 because of a drug suspension that stemmed from an issue in 2019. Perkins was a man playing against boys when it came to field-strength and technique. He isn’t blessed with upper tier tools when it comes to size and speed, but he does pack a punch. He has really good hands when it comes to power and placement. He understands how to properly use leverage and he simply knows how to position his body. The issue with Perkins revolves around his upside. He is a really solid player right now and he looks like a reliable throwback type, however there isn’t a ton of juice off the edge and he isn’t overly twitchy. His frame also looks nearly maxed out. He could be a solid starter in time or a part of a heavy rotation in a 3-4 scheme.
*I see a similar player to what NYG has in XImines here. Not blessed with particularly standout tools in any area, but he knows how to get to the passer. He is crafty, strong, and plays with some decent twitch when engaged with the blocker. There are limitations with him across the board and I would simply temper any expectations I’d have for him.
14. Wyatt Hubert / Kansas State / 6’3-258
Grade: 73
Summary: Fourth year junior from Topeka, Kansas. Three-year starter and two-time 1st Team All Big 12 honoree. The two-time team captain plays the game with contagious energy and all-out hustle. He is a throwback in the sense that he relies on instincts and effort more than he does speed. However, do not make the mistake of shorting the evaluation of his talent. He blends together plus-skills across the board. His hands are violent, accurate, and powerful. His base is incredibly strong and bendy, making him a constant winner in the leverage battle. He shows a clear understanding of angles and knows how to find the creases. Hubert moves exceptionally well for a player at his size in addition to playing with constant high effort. He will be able to contribute on the edge right away.
*I have to admit that for most of the college season, I had Hubert a bit too high. I fell in love with his grit, heavy hands, and hustle. Part of the scouting process is all about keeping personal bias aside and knowing when you are wrong. I’ve made the mistake in the past of over-grading a guy simply because of my initial impression even though further information came out that should have lowered the grade a tad. Hubert didn’t measure well, and he didn’t test well athletically. I think his playing style can hide that a little, but not completely. I love his tape, I really do. At the end of the day, the lack of true talent is going to make like difficult for him, as it did at the Senior Bowl. I still wouldn’t mind taking a round 5 or 6 chance on him, but it can’t be any earlier.
15. Rashad Weaver / Pittsburgh / 6’4-259
Grade: 72
Summary: Fifth year senior from Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Three-year starter that missed all of 2019 with a torn ACL suffered in preseason. Came back strong in his final year, earning 1st Team All ACC honors. Weaver has an attractive frame with current thickness and width that has plenty of room for more functional muscle. He is a really physical player at the point of attack that does a nice job using his heavy hands and natural bend. There is a lot to work with when looking at his potential as a versatile inside-out lineman. He isn’t overly impressive when it comes to upfield burst and suddenness, but he can be a factor as a third down pass rusher that can be moved around. Weaver missed all of 2019 with a torn ACL and how strong he came back just a year later is noteworthy. There are multiple options when it comes to how a defensive front can use him and he can be an every down force within a year or two.
*Weaver looks like a pro when he engages with the blocker. That stood out to me right away when I first saw him. I don’t love his body though; he needs more thickness in his lower half and he won’t win a lot of foot races. There are certain skills he has already that others take awhile to obtain, but I think there is a cap on just how good he can be. Solid guy to have on the depth chart though because he can impact the running game as well as rush the passer.
16. Dayo Odeyingbo / Vanderbilt / 6’5-285: 72
17. Chauncey Golston / Iowa / 6’5-259: 72
18. Quincy Roche / Miami / 6’3-243: 72
19. William Bradley-King / Baylor / 6’5-254: 71
20. Daelin Hayes / Notre Dame / 6’4-261: 70
21. Janarius Robinson / Florida State / 6’5-263: 70
22. Cam Sample / Tulane / 6’3-274: 70
23. Romeo McKnight/ Charlotte / 6’4-260: 70
24. Jordan Smith / UAB / 6’6-255: 70
25. Jonathon Cooper / Ohio State / 6’3-254: 69
26. Ade Ogundeji / Notre Dame / 6’4-256: 69
27. Victor Dimukeje / Duke / 6’2-256: 69
28. Malcolm Koonce / Buffalo / 6’2-249: 69
29. Malik Herring / Georgia / 6’3-275: 68
30. Josh Kaindoh / Florida State / 6’6-260: 68
NYG APPROACH
So, I have had this thought for awhile now. I think NYG coaches don’t view the EDGE as a significant hole on the defense. Can it be better? Sure. Half the teams if not more can say that. I think this coaching staff simply wants to improve their pass rush. They think more macro than micro if that makes sense. I don’t see them pursuing the top edge rusher just because they don’t have a solid edge presence. I think they want to come out of this draft class with another guy that helps this defense get to the passer. It can be another interior pass rusher, it can be a blitzing linebacker, it can be a hybrid OLB/DE type. They just want to get someone that can build around, and that has always been the right approach. Ideally, in my eyes anyway, that extra presence comes in the form of someone that can line up outside the tackle. He doesn’t always need to be out there, but he can be out there and pose as a threat. I think the ideal, for an amoeba scheme, is someone that can shift inside at times and/or defend the run at a high level. Fortunately, there are several of those guys in this class. If they swing for the fences, and I think it would be a strong idea, they use #11 on Paye or Phillips. If they want to wait for day 2, Tryon or Basham. If they want to build elsewhere early on, day three target is Turner or Odeyingbo.
I would be very surprised to see a draft class that does not include one of the names in this top 30.
Definitely more athlete than football player - still. He was like this in high school as well.
First round physical talent, third round production/project.
You can’t beat a high character with a motor , a student of the game, and driven to get better.
You can’t beat a high character guy with a motor , a student of the game, and driven to get better.
Tuck once had 13 sacks in a year at ND. And I think he's their all sacks leader. Plus, a ton of tackles for loss.
Plus, he had nearly 70 career sacks and four seasons with double digits sacks.
So I'm not sure how you arrive at the opinion Tuck couldn't get to the QB.
he has by far the best array of moves to go along with the best physical traits.
his medicals are a risk yes, but if you're looking for a playmaker in your front 7, he is by far and away the best guy in this class
That's exactly the point.
He's a good player but underwhelming more than likely at 11 for a team looking to win now that needs a pass rusher.
Just like Thomas was a fine player as a rookie, but there were tow other Tackles that were better rated.
Just as Jones might be a pretty good QB but not more as a result having a limited ceiling.
Just as Barkley being taken number 2 at a position that should never warrant number 2 when your team - especially your OL is in rebuild- his position becomes extremely limited considering his position he is more apt to get banged up.
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Because I don't expect Pits or Sewell to fall and possibly/probably Giants being risk adverse with Waddle, so from what we heard so far- the pick looks like Smith or Paye.
I really, really, really hope Smith will be there.
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solid player, but will not be a guy that can consistently get to the QB. He has a place however on this D. I think the BPA at #11 will not be an Edge, but a guy like DeVonta Smith. I would only consider one of the top Edge Defenders, if we trade down.
Tuck once had 13 sacks in a year at ND. And I think he's their all sacks leader. Plus, a ton of tackles for loss.
Plus, he had nearly 70 career sacks and four seasons with double digits sacks.
So I'm not sure how you arrive at the opinion Tuck couldn't get to the QB.
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In comment 15216110 Simms11 said:
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solid player, but will not be a guy that can consistently get to the QB. He has a place however on this D. I think the BPA at #11 will not be an Edge, but a guy like DeVonta Smith. I would only consider one of the top Edge Defenders, if we trade down.
Tuck once had 13 sacks in a year at ND. And I think he's their all sacks leader. Plus, a ton of tackles for loss.
Plus, he had nearly 70 career sacks and four seasons with double digits sacks.
So I'm not sure how you arrive at the opinion Tuck couldn't get to the QB.
Tuck had a few good years, but he also had some years where he didn’t consistently get to the QB either. I loved JT and not trying to diminish what he did as a player. I just think we need an Edge that can consistently be a threat rushing the QB.
I think that cheap shot by Flozell Adams really fucked up Tuck’s game. I never felt like he was quite the same player after that injury. Good player, yes, but not what he was early on.
I’d say the same thing about JPP. In his first few seasons he had almost an LT like “freak” athleticism and an ability to change the whole game. After the back injury (not the fireworks incident) he wasn’t quite as explosive of a player.
That's exactly the point.
He's a good player but underwhelming more than likely at 11 for a team looking to win now that needs a pass rusher.
Just like Thomas was a fine player as a rookie, but there were tow other Tackles that were better rated.
Just as Jones might be a pretty good QB but not more as a result having a limited ceiling.
Just as Barkley being taken number 2 at a position that should never warrant number 2 when your team - especially your OL is in rebuild- his position becomes extremely limited considering his position he is more apt to get banged up.
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Because I don't expect Pits or Sewell to fall and possibly/probably Giants being risk adverse with Waddle, so from what we heard so far- the pick looks like Smith or Paye.
I really, really, really hope Smith will be there.
"Better rated"? By who? The Giants had Thomas rated as the top OL in the draft. You might not like it, but they did.
If they draft Paye, they have him rated as the top DL/edge in the draft.
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When he says Paye may not have the upfield juice that some of us want.
That's exactly the point.
He's a good player but underwhelming more than likely at 11 for a team looking to win now that needs a pass rusher.
Just like Thomas was a fine player as a rookie, but there were tow other Tackles that were better rated.
Just as Jones might be a pretty good QB but not more as a result having a limited ceiling.
Just as Barkley being taken number 2 at a position that should never warrant number 2 when your team - especially your OL is in rebuild- his position becomes extremely limited considering his position he is more apt to get banged up.
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Because I don't expect Pits or Sewell to fall and possibly/probably Giants being risk adverse with Waddle, so from what we heard so far- the pick looks like Smith or Paye.
I really, really, really hope Smith will be there.
"Better rated"? By who? The Giants had Thomas rated as the top OL in the draft. You might not like it, but they did.
If they draft Paye, they have him rated as the top DL/edge in the draft.
Huh? I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that Thomas was the 3rd rated offensive lineman on his team. Or at least that's not what I meant. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
I meant of the big 4 OL in last year's draft of Thomas, Willis, Beckton and Wirfs he was drafted 1st but rated 3rd vs the 4. Frankly, I can't find the ratings of 3rd vs 4th but I'll give Thomas the benefit of the doubt beucase I could have sworn I heard 3rd and not 4th. Below are two links that had him behind Wirfs and Beckton. Granted the 1st one did not take into account the last week.
https://www.nfl.com/news/offensive-player-rankings-week-16-offensive-all-rookie-team
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-top-25-rookies-2020-nfl-season
As far as Giants liking Paye and I don't - that's the point to a degree. Rather than possibly say it after the season if he doesn't produce I'm predicting just as everyone else and saying he is an underwhelming choice for 2021 draft at 11.
Just as Thomas was an underwhelming choice in which two other tackles ranked higher at season's end- and we had 1st shot yet took the guy that ended up 3rd. He didn't stink. Neither will Paye more than likely. Just saying the Giants could've done better with Thomas - and could do better than Paye if they choose at 11 more than likely.
If they move down and take him thne that's fine.
Thomas is the 1st Giants franchise LT in a long long time.
Paye is the highest rated player so far from Sy’s reviews, along with Parsons at 85
Paye is slated to go from pick 10-16 in basically every single mock that you see. He would absolutely not be a “reach” with the 11th pick
Thomas is the 1st Giants franchise LT in a long long time.
Wirfs and Wills were ranked higher than Thomas in Sy’s draft board.
Draft isn’t about who you are as a player at that time, it’s about the projection. NYG thought Thomas had the most upside as a left tackle, and Sy thought the same.
There’s nothing that has happened thus far to combat that theory. Wirfs will be a pro bowl/all pro type right tackle it seems. The Giants weren’t drafting a right tackle at #4 overall.
What’s the reason that Paye would be an underwhelming choice?
Ojulari seems like he has the speed and the length.. but I dont see play against the run as solid as Paye.
I like Oweh as well. he creates pressure but he doesnt seem to reach home. I know thats not the end all and be all, but maybe Paye's thing about false steps is part of the issue there. Cant take him in round one.. Second round would be better for him.
If that’s how the Giants view Paye he should be the pick even if the WR targets aren’t gone.
I am still thinking Parsons would do more for our defense than any other defender in this class with pick 11. Select Parsons and move him all over the front, still take an Edge guy in rounds 2-4. The value seems to be late 1st early 2nd round. Ossai or Tryon in round 2 feel like good value, production, measurable a and upside.
It seems like a perfect compliment to the rest of the D, especially on passing downs. I feel like those types slip to day 2 or 3 so if i was NYG, I'd target one of the top corners/WRs and then try and get that edge rushing specialist day 2 or 3.
Thomas is the 1st Giants franchise LT in a long long time.
George-- you can see the links I provided. He was ranked as the 3rd Tackle by season's end.
In regards to our Franchise LT-- well as we know our LT's have stunk for a long time - so what's that really saying? HOWEVER he's good. But just not as good as the other 2 that I provided links of showing. That was my point that I made with him and then drawing the same analogy to Kwity Paye. There are better options.
That's why I used the word "underwhelming." I didn't say "stink" or "bad." What I meant is that we had the 1st pick available for an OT- we could've done better.
There were two tackles better than Thomas. Similarly, in terms of choices at 11 and not position, there will be better options at 11 than Kwity Paye at other positions imo.
I realize the Giants may not think that way. But that's not the point either. Some of us are highly skeptical as to how the Giants "think/analyze/scout" which players are best.
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LT Thomas was behind which other LT?
Thomas is the 1st Giants franchise LT in a long long time.
Wirfs and Wills were ranked higher than Thomas in Sy’s draft board.
I'm not sure why you sent me this. This wasn't my point. And to further that - I hope you haven't drawn to the conclusion that I was criticizing SY.
No way that I was. I do think Giants can do better at 11 than he does - but my posts have said Paye woudl be a fine player. I just think the Giants can do better.
As what SY said -- some of us "will want more juice." Well he is right- some of us "want more juice" at 11.
And just like last year when we took Thomas - SY was right about him being 3rd or whatever but we can say "Thomas was still good" but SY and others were probably right there were better options. - This is all I'm saying here with Paye. IMO there will be better options at 11.
Draft isn’t about who you are as a player at that time, it’s about the projection. NYG thought Thomas had the most upside as a left tackle, and Sy thought the same.
There’s nothing that has happened thus far to combat that theory. Wirfs will be a pro bowl/all pro type right tackle it seems. The Giants weren’t drafting a right tackle at #4 overall.
In your make-believe world because all you do is lead the cheerleading for lousy football teams you say "The Giants weren't drafting a RT at 4" but yet you were and remain a lead cheerleader for the Giants. So according to YOU they weren't draftign a RT at 4 but it was okay ot take Barkley at 2?
Your mantra is Yeah Rah Rah Team. Never criticize your team.
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that might be true, but Sy also said “Thomas at his absolute best is better than both Wills and Wirfs.”
Draft isn’t about who you are as a player at that time, it’s about the projection. NYG thought Thomas had the most upside as a left tackle, and Sy thought the same.
There’s nothing that has happened thus far to combat that theory. Wirfs will be a pro bowl/all pro type right tackle it seems. The Giants weren’t drafting a right tackle at #4 overall.
In your make-believe world because all you do is lead the cheerleading for lousy football teams you say "The Giants weren't drafting a RT at 4" but yet you were and remain a lead cheerleader for the Giants. So according to YOU they weren't draftign a RT at 4 but it was okay ot take Barkley at 2?
Your mantra is Yeah Rah Rah Team. Never criticize your team.
Let's hear who you want at 11.
Could Wirfs and Wills end up being better than Thomas? Sure, absolutely. Could very hell happen. But I’ve seen enough football the past 20 years of my life to realize that making an assumption on something after 1 season is A) stupid and B) stupid
And it doesn’t mean I’m a “cheerleader” - there’s been plenty of draft picks that the Giants have taken in the first round that I didn’t like. Thomas isn’t one of those guys.
Mekhi Becton will not end up being a better LT than Thomas....
But I understand why you are skeptical.... Hopefully, they will start winning....
But you can't go and twist what I was saying and change it's meaning to fit your cheerleading agenda.
My posts said to summarize that the pick WAS underwhelming.
It has nothing to do with projection, does it? So why are you talking about "projection?"
If my posts "projected" that Thomas has little shot to be better than the others I apologize. But I feel they did not. I think you are doing what you normally do and that's twist things to fit your yeah rah rah team agenda. I'm saying right now he is 3rd. In year 1 we got the 3rd best Tackle. That's what I meant. In year 1 am I wrong?
No one knows projection of all the OT's and my posts did not reflect that. Maybe they did - if so I apologize. Thomas could be elite and be the best. But I don't think I did so it figures you would try to turn what I said because it's not the message you want to hear. Again I apologize to you if I did project Thomas that he will never become better. We can only know for sure what we see - and what analysts have mentioned.
And year 1 Thomas was 3rd from what I've read and heard. An because of that- IN YEAR 1 HE WAS AN UNDERWHLEMING OF THE 4 SUPPOSED TACKLES considering that the Giants had the 1st choice.
In year 2 ofc it could wind up being super.
How did a thread about this year's ER prospects turn into a pissing contest about last year's OT prospects?
Phillips would be my choice at 11, if the medical check out. Otherwise, I’d rather go with someone like Ossai in round 3.
How did a thread about this year's ER prospects turn into a pissing contest about last year's OT prospects?
As usual some posters will turn any thread into a shit on Gettleman thread.
How did a thread about this year's ER prospects turn into a pissing contest about last year's OT prospects?
Great question!
How did a thread about this year's ER prospects turn into a pissing contest about last year's OT prospects?
Because I gave an example(s) of how past 1st round choices have been underwhelming and felt Paye would be the same - thus implying a typical trend of "underwhelming."
For anyone who thinks my example was not underwhelming then they would have issue with my point of underwhelming trends of 1st round draft choices of Barkley, Jones, and Thomas vs what they might have gotten. Not saying they stink or can't get better.
Just saying right nwo - in the moment - that's what it's been imo. And I feel the same with Paye -- -as SY puts it some of us will feel in year 1 he'll "lack the juice."
Summary: Fifth year senior from Randallstown, Maryland. Spent four years at Temple before grad-transferring to Miami for the shortened 2020 season. Two-year starter, one at each school. 1st Team All AAC in 2019 and 3rd Team All ACC in 2020. Roche is a plus straight-line athlete with interesting physical traits. He plays a strong and tough style of football, showing the ability to violently strike blockers with his hands while maintaining good position against the run. His pass rush repertoire is still developing, but he has flashed over the past two seasons in a big way. He beats one on one blocking a few different ways and he has the hustle mentality. Roche isn’t big enough for every down trench duty. He will need time to add bulk and if he gets more consistent with leverage and pass rush positioning, he can be a heavy rotational edge threat for 3-4 schemes.
*He is scheme specific, role specific. He has a decent straight line burst and he plays hard, but I don't love the body. His lower half seems a bit stiff too. Not sure I see him beating a lot of quality OTs, but he is worth stashing on the depth chart. He has tools.
On Leonard Williams and Odenigbo; my personal thought on how they’d be used was that Odenigbo would play edge on passing downs with Williams inside. That means someone would need to play the other side of the line. If we get Jones he’d likely be like George Martin by rotating him in on passing downs.
Mekhi Becton will not end up being a better LT than Thomas....
But I understand why you are skeptical.... Hopefully, they will start winning....
I want to see G-MEN win and I'll tell you this- they show they can be good for a few years I'll turn from skeptical to major optimist.
With that said-- this organization imo can't legitimately talk about not taking a RT at 4 when they took a RB at 2. The same organization that mocked positional value.
And while you say as Giants fan Thomas will be better than Beckton, I'm sure there are Jets fans that don't agree along with what you say, and I'm sure there are some Cleveland Browns fans that think Wills will be better.
But all of this doesn't change the point that I made that in year 1 Thomas was underwhelming when making a decision of the 4 tackles- he was regarded as 3rd - form what I read and heard.
And as a result imo there is similar skepticism looming with this pick. Just not enough "juice" for a team trying to win the division this year.
We have no idea...none...what the top NFL programs rated the OT candidates relative to each other and why.
Tons of agents feedings, post draft team press conferences and media and fan sites had a vested interest in their narrative.
What ranking Thomas really had is a lot of speculation hanging on a slim reed. Positively or negatively, 1st or 4th. We dont know. For that matter, all 4 could have been had different rankings from different teams/coaches/Gm's.
dont think there is much cheese down that tunnel
We have no idea...none...what the top NFL programs rated the OT candidates relative to each other and why.
Tons of agents feedings, post draft team press conferences and media and fan sites had a vested interest in their narrative.
What ranking Thomas really had is a lot of speculation hanging on a slim reed. Positively or negatively, 1st or 4th. We dont know. For that matter, all 4 could have been had different rankings from different teams/coaches/Gm's.
dont think there is much cheese down that tunnel
That’s correct. Coming into the season Andrew Thomas was the consensus top OT in the draft.
We have no idea...none...what the top NFL programs rated the OT candidates relative to each other and why.
Tons of agents feedings, post draft team press conferences and media and fan sites had a vested interest in their narrative.
What ranking Thomas really had is a lot of speculation hanging on a slim reed. Positively or negatively, 1st or 4th. We dont know. For that matter, all 4 could have been had different rankings from different teams/coaches/Gm's.
dont think there is much cheese down that tunnel
If that's what you want to believe then go ahead. All I know is that I have these different links which I'll share from ESPN, NFL.com, the actual live podcast of the draft, Gil Brandt, Bleacher Report, Giants.com,, SI.com., The DraftNetwork, ProFootball Network, WalterFootball. -- and the last one but the 1st link on here is from SY. None of these had him 1 or 2.
If you don't want to say he was 3rd that's your business. With your belief I guess we can say Lawrence isn't consensus number 1 because Simms and maybe some other sites we can find has him 2nd.
http://www.bigblueinteractive.com/2020/04/12/new-york-giants-2020-nfl-draft-preview-offensive-tackles/
http://www.bigblueinteractive.com/2020/04/12/new-york-giants-2020-nfl-draft-preview-offensive-tackles/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b7OWzx6gvY
42 minute mark DJ and Lewis said Giants could have done better – they both had him 4th.
https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/04/03/draft-big-board-updated-top-100-prospects
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2886288-nfl-draft-2020-1st-round-order-and-prospects-who-can-shake-up-draft-outlook
https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2020/story/_/id/29017869/2020-nfl-draft-ranking-top-100-prospects
https://walterfootball.com/draft2020OT.php
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/2020-nfl-draft-ranking-top-150-prospects-big-board
https://www.giants.com/photos/nfl-com-s-top-5-draft-prospects-by-position-2020#922e2640-ba1c-4e9e-8a90-ac012ec6d972
https://www.nfl.com/news/hot-150-gil-brandt-s-top-ranked-prospects-for-2020-nfl-draft-0ap3000001109120
https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/new-york-giants-nfl-draft-recap-2020
https://www.profootballnetwork.com/pfn-big-board-top-300-consensus-2020-nfl-draft/
https://www.nfl.com/news/2020-nfl-draft-final-quick-snap-grades-for-all-32-teams-0ap3000001111711
Graded as B here. I doubt he was thought of as 1st or 2nd.
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Thomas was rated 1st for a whole year until a few weeks before the draft...in media publications and hit seeking draft guru sites.
We have no idea...none...what the top NFL programs rated the OT candidates relative to each other and why.
Tons of agents feedings, post draft team press conferences and media and fan sites had a vested interest in their narrative.
What ranking Thomas really had is a lot of speculation hanging on a slim reed. Positively or negatively, 1st or 4th. We dont know. For that matter, all 4 could have been had different rankings from different teams/coaches/Gm's.
dont think there is much cheese down that tunnel
That’s correct. Coming into the season Andrew Thomas was the consensus top OT in the draft.
And as we know "coming into the season" means so much more than "after the season," right?
C'mon.
We're picking #11, not top-five - that's where Paye fits. Right now, we have Ximenez & Carter, they're OK, but neither has proven much.
Do we want to add more JAGs ? The vet retreads that we signed are just that. I anticipate we'll get more wins this year, if we do, that means we pick lower on the board, next time.
Patrick Graham coached his butt off; if we can't get a top-flyer WR, we owe him.
We're picking #11, not top-five - that's where Paye fits. Right now, we have Ximenez & Carter, they're OK, but neither has proven much.
Do we want to add more JAGs ? The vet retreads that we signed are just that. I anticipate we'll get more wins this year, if we do, that means we pick lower on the board, next time.
Patrick Graham coached his butt off; if we can't get a top-flyer WR, we owe him.
Quite a few good Edges SY mentions- which is great to see. Because I don't think Giants will draft an OL- I'm rooting for Smith Rd 1. Then take the Best Edge available that either can be traded up to get or can last until our pick.