The Athletic on our needs and prediction at 11

With the 11th pick. The DL is a weakness in this draft. If it’s BPA it can’t be DL.

I'm so sick of seeing the same topic rehashed over and over and over again. Please make it stop!

Did I do that right?

In comment 15217131 Giant John said:

Quote:

With the 11th pick. The DL is a weakness in this draft. If it’s BPA it can’t be DL.

They said OL, not DL.

That said, depending on if Smith or Waddle are there(or Pitts - doubtful) I think one ER or CB could be the pick.

Could very well see Smith, Waddle, Surtain, Horn or Paye as the choice at #11 and OL at 42/76.

So much for that analysis.

BPA at 11. I don't are what position the player plays, we need to hit on this draft pick.

The Athletic, but I thought that was a totally mediocre article. There was less than anything new and fell into trap of drafting from need.

if Devonta Smith is on the board

Because it isn’t a need. Would another WR help? Yes of course but it’s not a need.

Golladay
Shepard
Slayton
Pettis
Ross
Mack
Sills
Cj board
Bachman

Combine that with the tight ends we have we are alright on the outside

In comment 15217157 TommyWiseau said:

Quote:

BPA at 11. I don't are what position the player plays, we need to hit on this draft pick.

^^THIS^^

In 1981, the New Orleans Saints had the first pick in the draft and needed a running back. So they took George Rogers and filled a need for a couple of years. It led to nothing and they traded him in 1985 to the Redskins for a draft pick that resulted in filling another position of need - linebacker Alvin Toles. Who?

The Giants picked second in the 1981 draft and had an urgent need to get better on offense at a time when their 4-3 defense was strong led by their linebacker corps. But they took Lawrence Taylor, an outside linebacker who was best utilized as an edge rushing linebacker in a 3-4 defense. Why? Because he was unequivocally the best player in the draft pool. And then a certain defensive coordinator changed the scheme to fit their talent and they made the playoffs for the first time in the Super Bowl era that very same year. A cogent argument can be made that the subsequent legacy of four super bowl wins stem from this single decision and the recognition that 1) talent is more important than need and 2) talent must dictate scheme - not vice versa.

In subsequent rounds of that draft, the Giants addressed the offense with "need" picks like Dave Young, John Mistler, Cliff Chatman, Mel Hoover, Ed O'Neill, Louis Jackson, John Powers and Mark Reed. Even the most ardent Giants fans have a difficult time remembering any of these players. They did finally get Billy Ard in the eighth round, almost as an after thought, who turned out to be a mainstay on the 1986 Super Bowl team. Ard is among the best examples in Giants history of why there is NEVER a need to reach - he was there waiting to be taken at precisely the right moment.

The Giants cannot endure a third consecutive year of reaching for need at the top of the draft. The first three picks simply must be the best players available. Past is prologue - get this right!

In comment 15217165 cjac said:

Quote:

if Devonta Smith is on the board

Smith may be a better player, but Slater would be a bigger need. I keep on saying you can draft all the Smiths, and Waddles all you want, but if the O line doesn’t get better it won’t matter, because the offense will still suck. The O line is the key for this team to stop their 4 year losing streak not all the WR people want the team to take.

I'm not sure i would be ok with this at 11.

In comment 15217165 cjac said:

Quote:

if Devonta Smith is on the board

Mixed feelings on this. Like them both. OL is a bigger need. But Eagles would probably grab Smith if Giants don’t.

In comment 15217170 Tuckrule said:

Quote:

Because it isn’t a need. Would another WR help? Yes of course but it’s not a need. Golladay Shepard Slayton Pettis Ross Mack Sills Cj board Bachman Combine that with the tight ends we have we are alright on the outside

We are one Golladay sprained ankle away from going back to having one of the worst WR corps in the league. Not just a need, an important need.

The same can be said of just about every single team in the league if their top WR goes down. It’s a need but a smaller one and more of a long term need when looking at Sheps contract and concussion history.

In comment 15217199 BillT said:

Quote:

In comment 15217170 Tuckrule said: Quote: Because it isn’t a need. Would another WR help? Yes of course but it’s not a need. Golladay Shepard Slayton Pettis Ross Mack Sills Cj board Bachman Combine that with the tight ends we have we are alright on the outside We are one Golladay sprained ankle away from going back to having one of the worst WR corps in the league. Not just a need, an important need.

And one sprained ankle from having Solder at LT, and one sprained ankle from Tae Crowder being the starting MLB, one sprained ankle from Yiadom being CB#2, one sprained ankle from Devontae Booker being the starting RB, one sprained ankle from Mike Glennon, etc...

if they don't pick a WR, and if they're all gone, I'm expecting an Edge. No OL at #11 unless it's Sewell.

and if it's *anybody* other than a WR (Sewell being an exception, as Jon says), then it better darn well not be at #11. Might was well, walk into your porsche store and buy a minivan

I think Payne is going to be really high on the Giants' board.

I think he'll be right there next to D. Smith.

It will be interesting to see what happens if they are both there at #11.

SLater is the wild card - I don't think the staff will be as high on him as much as other teams in the NFL. THat lack of length seems to be a major ding in the current Giant's draft philosophy. I also don't think that his opting out did him any favors.

In comment 15217208 rasbutant said:

Quote:

In comment 15217199 BillT said: Quote: In comment 15217170 Tuckrule said: Quote: Because it isn’t a need. Would another WR help? Yes of course but it’s not a need. Golladay Shepard Slayton Pettis Ross Mack Sills Cj board Bachman Combine that with the tight ends we have we are alright on the outside We are one Golladay sprained ankle away from going back to having one of the worst WR corps in the league. Not just a need, an important need. And one sprained ankle from having Solder at LT, and one sprained ankle from Tae Crowder being the starting MLB, one sprained ankle from Yiadom being CB#2, one sprained ankle from Devontae Booker being the starting RB, one sprained ankle from Mike Glennon, etc...

And none of those injuries would take those units and make them one of the worst units in the league as has already been proven with the WR group.

In comment 15217222 Dnew15 said:

Quote:

I think Payne is going to be really high on the Giants' board. I think he'll be right there next to D. Smith. It will be interesting to see what happens if they are both there at #11. SLater is the wild card - I don't think the staff will be as high on him as much as other teams in the NFL. THat lack of length seems to be a major ding in the current Giant's draft philosophy. I also don't think that his opting out did him any favors.

I assume you mean Paye?

In comment 15217225 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 15217222 Dnew15 said: Quote: I think Payne is going to be really high on the Giants' board. I think he'll be right there next to D. Smith. It will be interesting to see what happens if they are both there at #11. SLater is the wild card - I don't think the staff will be as high on him as much as other teams in the NFL. THat lack of length seems to be a major ding in the current Giant's draft philosophy. I also don't think that his opting out did him any favors. I assume you mean Paye?

and that the Giants read Sy's write-up

In comment 15217157 TommyWiseau said:

Quote:

BPA at 11. I don't are what position the player plays, we need to hit on this draft pick.

Agreed but I just have this feeling that it's a swing for the fences in round 1 with an edge guy and then playing to the strengths of the draft in 2-4 with WR and a double dip at OL in whatever order.

In comment 15217136 Bricktop said:

Quote:

I'm so sick of seeing the same topic rehashed over and over and over again. Please make it stop! Did I do that right?

The HUGE difference, is that the Athletic is a subscription item and thus many do not have access. Yes, it’s the same stuff, but mocks and needs are welcomed because for many of us who do not want to wade through tomes of draft guide material, it is a good learning source..This time of year, mocks and needs are discussed the most..

Posting another Daniel Jones thread when there are 50 others on the front page is nothing new and fields the SAME opinions, from the SAME posters ad nauseam.. The mocks and needs come from different sources throughout the internet and it’s nice to compare and discuss..Not the same with DJ because it’s the same old, same old by THIS forum.

In comment 15217170 Tuckrule said:

Quote:

Because it isn’t a need. Would another WR help? Yes of course but it’s not a need. Golladay Shepard Slayton Pettis Ross Mack Sills Cj board Bachman Combine that with the tight ends we have we are alright on the outside

Some BBIers look at that group and think we are "fine". That is a bad group. Shep is a slot, and he's pretty good. But Slayton is an ill-fitted compliment to Golladay and is fairly one-dimensional.

The rest of the receivers could all be cut and no one would bat an eye.

Even with Golladay, while he's a legit #1, he's not an elite #1 in the NFL, and his production thus far is a little underwhelming for the contract he received.

WR remains a HUGE need. It's a major weakness of this team and if it's not addressed, has the potential to really cap the amount of points this team has the realistic ability to score.

It is still the biggest weakness on this team in terms of on-field impact.

yes Paye.

and Yes - I'm sure the Giants read and adhere to Sy' write ups - to the letter.

In comment 15217237 allstarjim said:

Quote:

In comment 15217170 Tuckrule said: Quote: Because it isn’t a need. Would another WR help? Yes of course but it’s not a need. Golladay Shepard Slayton Pettis Ross Mack Sills Cj board Bachman Combine that with the tight ends we have we are alright on the outside Some BBIers look at that group and think we are "fine". That is a bad group. Shep is a slot, and he's pretty good. But Slayton is an ill-fitted compliment to Golladay and is fairly one-dimensional. The rest of the receivers could all be cut and no one would bat an eye. Even with Golladay, while he's a legit #1, he's not an elite #1 in the NFL, and his production thus far is a little underwhelming for the contract he received. WR remains a HUGE need. It's a major weakness of this team and if it's not addressed, has the potential to really cap the amount of points this team has the realistic ability to score. It is still the biggest weakness on this team in terms of on-field impact.

Couldn’t disagree more..It’s not a HUGE need by any measure..You can cite injuries to major receivers for most any team and the rest of that area would look pedestrian..

Would I be fine as a fan if we drafted one? Absolutely, but it’s NOT a huge need imv..

I believe the DG/Judge draft to improve the OL last year will pay dividends as they develop. Do I know that for sure? Of course not, but I would THINK that OL would still be a bigger need than WR at this point in time..

Again, ANYONE Judge goes with at 11 will be fine with me.

In comment 15217209 JonC said:

Quote:

if they don't pick a WR, and if they're all gone, I'm expecting an Edge. No OL at #11 unless it's Sewell.

Let's hope one of the WRs drop then. I'd love for Rousseau to be the pick, but when you mention EDGE, I'm assuming Paye who doesn't do it for me.

way the Giants take Slater or Smith. I don't think they'd take him over Paye. The only OL I think they'd consider is Sewell.

Golladay, Slayton, and Shepard are our only consistent WRs. Everyone else is a journeyman, including Pettis and Ross. WR is a huge need.

In comment 15217257 AcidTest said:

Quote:

way the Giants take Slater or Smith. I don't think they'd take him over Paye. The only OL I think they'd consider is Sewell. Golladay, Slayton, and Shepard are our only consistent WRs. Everyone else is a journeyman, including Pettis and Ross. WR is a huge need.

Remember, we’ll have Randolph and Barkley coming back, hopefully up to speed, that can’t be dismissed. Yes, they’re not WR’s, but I believe you can’t put receivers in a vacuum..The ENTIRE potential receiving corps should be considered imv..THAT’S what makes our O potentially explosive..

the question is full of question marks and lacks depth, signing KG just takes some of the edge off the pain.

In comment 15217254 UberAlias said:

Quote:

In comment 15217209 JonC said: Quote: if they don't pick a WR, and if they're all gone, I'm expecting an Edge. No OL at #11 unless it's Sewell. Let's hope one of the WRs drop then. I'd love for Rousseau to be the pick, but when you mention EDGE, I'm assuming Paye who doesn't do it for me.

Paye doesn't do it for me either, he is multiple but I think all the Tuck comparisons are off target.

In comment 15217263 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 15217257 AcidTest said: Quote: way the Giants take Slater or Smith. I don't think they'd take him over Paye. The only OL I think they'd consider is Sewell. Golladay, Slayton, and Shepard are our only consistent WRs. Everyone else is a journeyman, including Pettis and Ross. WR is a huge need. Remember, we’ll have Randolph and Barkley coming back, hopefully up to speed, that can’t be dismissed. Yes, they’re not WR’s, but I believe you can’t put receivers in a vacuum..The ENTIRE potential receiving corps should be considered imv..THAT’S what makes our O potentially explosive..

Take out Golliday, and even with Barkley and Rudolph, we are in really scary shape, IMO. I thought the major point of the off-season is to help Jones; not getting another WR will limit him.

the UNIT is full of question marks ...

Quote:

We are one Golladay sprained ankle away from going back to having one of the worst WR corps in the league. Not just a need, an important need.

I'm tired of hearing it. Seems it appears on every thread. It simply isn't true and obviously so and always brings to mind an old quote: "Tell a lie once and it's a lie, tell a lie a thousand times and it's the truth". Jos. Goebbels, Propaganda Minister
This year's Edition has a lot going for it regards the wide receiver unit. They will have a preseason, and a year in the system as well as a markedly better offensive line. Last year will be remembered as the "Perfect Storm".
They add saquon Barkley, John Ross and Dante Pettis. David Sills looked good last year before his injury, he returns.
Evan Ephraim and Darius Slayton had off years and we reasonably can expect Improvement - and dramatic Improvement at that - from these two. I personally think the Darius is a big-time receiver with great measurables (6-1, 4.39) and dedication.
And then there's the huge and not talked of enough addition of Kyle Rudolph.
That might not be an elite unit without Kenny G. But it's a hell of a lot better than anything they trotted out there last year.

We can hope the lightbulb goes on and they fulfill the potential they had when drafted, but there isn't any indication that can happen.

If Golladay does get hurt, the Giants WR corp is back to square one. That doesn't mean you have to spend 11 on a WR (I'd be cool with Slater or Smith), but a WR should be added somewhere in the draft, preferably in the top 4 rounds.

is not a pass catcher that commands attention from the defense at all. Not sure how much of him you saw last year, but he was losing targets to Irv Smith consistently.

we add one guy with an injury history, including one last year and another guy who has never performed while at the professional level, and saying that we need (at Least) one more high quality WR to help a developing QB, stretch the defense away from Golliday or provide depth in case Golliday goes down, is equivalent to Goebbel's???

This place has really gone off the deep end.

In comment 15217272 Bill L said:

Quote:

In comment 15217263 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: In comment 15217257 AcidTest said: Quote: way the Giants take Slater or Smith. I don't think they'd take him over Paye. The only OL I think they'd consider is Sewell. Golladay, Slayton, and Shepard are our only consistent WRs. Everyone else is a journeyman, including Pettis and Ross. WR is a huge need. Remember, we’ll have Randolph and Barkley coming back, hopefully up to speed, that can’t be dismissed. Yes, they’re not WR’s, but I believe you can’t put receivers in a vacuum..The ENTIRE potential receiving corps should be considered imv..THAT’S what makes our O potentially explosive.. Take out Golliday, and even with Barkley and Rudolph, we are in really scary shape, IMO. I thought the major point of the off-season is to help Jones; not getting another WR will limit him.

Or making sure he’s protected even better with a stronger OL..Again, I have no problem making a good unit on paper, stronger..Our receiving skills incl. TE and Barkley make this less of a need than possibly the OL, imo..

Let me be CLEAR: My main objection is to the term HUGE when describing our WR corps as presently constituted, that’s why Zi’ve put it in caps several times. I’m NOT disputing any upgrade/fortification of the WRs.but imo, it is not a HUGE need. That’s more than just a semantic word, imv

I do factor in the return of Saquon. He's a very good pass catcher out of the backfield and really helps the effectivness of play action pass. Golladay also helps move Shepard into the slot which is also a plus. I agree WR is a need, but it's a deep draft the position and we aren't in the sort of position where we need to pass on talent to address the need. With that in mind, good chance WR is the pick based on BPA, if nothing else.

In comment 15217173 The Mike said:

Quote:

In comment 15217157 TommyWiseau said: Quote: BPA at 11. I don't are what position the player plays, we need to hit on this draft pick. ^^THIS^^ In 1981, the New Orleans Saints had the first pick in the draft and needed a running back. So they took George Rogers and filled a need for a couple of years. It led to nothing and they traded him in 1985 to the Redskins for a draft pick that resulted in filling another position of need - linebacker Alvin Toles. Who? The Giants picked second in the 1981 draft and had an urgent need to get better on offense at a time when their 4-3 defense was strong led by their linebacker corps. But they took Lawrence Taylor, an outside linebacker who was best utilized as an edge rushing linebacker in a 3-4 defense. Why? Because he was unequivocally the best player in the draft pool. And then a certain defensive coordinator changed the scheme to fit their talent and they made the playoffs for the first time in the Super Bowl era that very same year. A cogent argument can be made that the subsequent legacy of four super bowl wins stem from this single decision and the recognition that 1) talent is more important than need and 2) talent must dictate scheme - not vice versa. In subsequent rounds of that draft, the Giants addressed the offense with "need" picks like Dave Young, John Mistler, Cliff Chatman, Mel Hoover, Ed O'Neill, Louis Jackson, John Powers and Mark Reed. Even the most ardent Giants fans have a difficult time remembering any of these players. They did finally get Billy Ard in the eighth round, almost as an after thought, who turned out to be a mainstay on the 1986 Super Bowl team. Ard is among the best examples in Giants history of why there is NEVER a need to reach - he was there waiting to be taken at precisely the right moment. The Giants cannot endure a third consecutive year of reaching for need at the top of the draft. The first three picks simply must be the best players available. Past is prologue - get this right!

This might be the best pre draft post ever posted

with literally every position grouping on the Giants in the same vein as the WR position grouping.

What would the CB room be if Jackson OR Bradberry go down with an ankle.

What would the LB room look like if Martinez has an ankle.

HOw about RB? QB? Oline?

Maybe S and DL could survive...but that's really it.

This goes for almost every team in the NFL BTW.

in the long time the Giants have put themselves in a position to draft a player that doesn't necessarily have to start on day one b/c there's at least some sort of NFL proven talent already there.

This allows them to actually draft BPA.

+1 and a must-read as draft philosophy.

your last sentence.

In comment 15217173 The Mike said:

Quote:

In comment 15217157 TommyWiseau said: Quote: BPA at 11. I don't are what position the player plays, we need to hit on this draft pick. ^^THIS^^ In 1981, the New Orleans Saints had the first pick in the draft and needed a running back. So they took George Rogers and filled a need for a couple of years. It led to nothing and they traded him in 1985 to the Redskins for a draft pick that resulted in filling another position of need - linebacker Alvin Toles. Who? The Giants picked second in the 1981 draft and had an urgent need to get better on offense at a time when their 4-3 defense was strong led by their linebacker corps. But they took Lawrence Taylor, an outside linebacker who was best utilized as an edge rushing linebacker in a 3-4 defense. Why? Because he was unequivocally the best player in the draft pool. And then a certain defensive coordinator changed the scheme to fit their talent and they made the playoffs for the first time in the Super Bowl era that very same year. A cogent argument can be made that the subsequent legacy of four super bowl wins stem from this single decision and the recognition that 1) talent is more important than need and 2) talent must dictate scheme - not vice versa. In subsequent rounds of that draft, the Giants addressed the offense with "need" picks like Dave Young, John Mistler, Cliff Chatman, Mel Hoover, Ed O'Neill, Louis Jackson, John Powers and Mark Reed. Even the most ardent Giants fans have a difficult time remembering any of these players. They did finally get Billy Ard in the eighth round, almost as an after thought, who turned out to be a mainstay on the 1986 Super Bowl team. Ard is among the best examples in Giants history of why there is NEVER a need to reach - he was there waiting to be taken at precisely the right moment. The Giants cannot endure a third consecutive year of reaching for need at the top of the draft. The first three picks simply must be the best players available. Past is prologue - get this right!

I thought the Giants already started using the 3-4 in 1979, with George Martin at left end and Gary Jeter at right end. Nose Tackle was a revolving door with John Mendenhall and Curtis McGriff for one year each.

I don't think the Giants think that they reached for Thomas.

It just so happened that positional need for the team matched the strength of the draft.

When it's all said it done - they still might be right with Thomas..we'll have to see.

In comment 15217237 allstarjim said:

Quote:

In comment 15217170 Tuckrule said: Quote: Because it isn’t a need. Would another WR help? Yes of course but it’s not a need. Golladay Shepard Slayton Pettis Ross Mack Sills Cj board Bachman Combine that with the tight ends we have we are alright on the outside Some BBIers look at that group and think we are "fine". That is a bad group. Shep is a slot, and he's pretty good. But Slayton is an ill-fitted compliment to Golladay and is fairly one-dimensional. The rest of the receivers could all be cut and no one would bat an eye. Even with Golladay, while he's a legit #1, he's not an elite #1 in the NFL, and his production thus far is a little underwhelming for the contract he received. WR remains a HUGE need. It's a major weakness of this team and if it's not addressed, has the potential to really cap the amount of points this team has the realistic ability to score. It is still the biggest weakness on this team in terms of on-field impact.

WR may remain a weakness, but the BIGGEST NEED is the O line, and the HUMPTY DUMPTY O line if not addressed will be like the KC Chiefs in the SB, and they have all kinds of weapons that the Giants do not, so while WR is a weakness it is not the biggest, and the O line is.

In comment 15217173 The Mike said:

Quote:

In comment 15217157 TommyWiseau said: Quote: BPA at 11. I don't are what position the player plays, we need to hit on this draft pick. ^^THIS^^ In 1981, the New Orleans Saints had the first pick in the draft and needed a running back. So they took George Rogers and filled a need for a couple of years. It led to nothing and they traded him in 1985 to the Redskins for a draft pick that resulted in filling another position of need - linebacker Alvin Toles. Who? The Giants picked second in the 1981 draft and had an urgent need to get better on offense at a time when their 4-3 defense was strong led by their linebacker corps. But they took Lawrence Taylor, an outside linebacker who was best utilized as an edge rushing linebacker in a 3-4 defense. Why? Because he was unequivocally the best player in the draft pool. And then a certain defensive coordinator changed the scheme to fit their talent and they made the playoffs for the first time in the Super Bowl era that very same year. A cogent argument can be made that the subsequent legacy of four super bowl wins stem from this single decision and the recognition that 1) talent is more important than need and 2) talent must dictate scheme - not vice versa. In subsequent rounds of that draft, the Giants addressed the offense with "need" picks like Dave Young, John Mistler, Cliff Chatman, Mel Hoover, Ed O'Neill, Louis Jackson, John Powers and Mark Reed. Even the most ardent Giants fans have a difficult time remembering any of these players. They did finally get Billy Ard in the eighth round, almost as an after thought, who turned out to be a mainstay on the 1986 Super Bowl team. Ard is among the best examples in Giants history of why there is NEVER a need to reach - he was there waiting to be taken at precisely the right moment. The Giants cannot endure a third consecutive year of reaching for need at the top of the draft. The first three picks simply must be the best players available. Past is prologue - get this right!

Very good post, just one point. It was Edward O'Neal. Can be confusing because the actor Ed O'Neill (Modern Family, Married with Children) actually was also drafted in the NFL by the Steelers. He wasn't a RB and never scored 4 tds in a game to my knowledge though...

There’s a sense around here that the OL is gtg — it isn’t. They need to keep stocking the cupboard.

Edge is the gaping hole on this roster right now. All they have is a bunch of JAGS, and this team won’t be a legitimate contender until they add some legitimate edge talent.

Fact some are cool with relying on Shepard and Ross, Pettis as well, as primary depth is scary. Ross is always injured. Shepard is hurt a lot, as well, and Pettis is a question mark. He needs to earn his spot.

Adding a WR like Smith or Waddle allows the position where Slayton isn't depended on for all production at WR. Too many questions after Slayton and Golladay right now.