Raanan Draft Tidbits

Slater or the possibility of taking an O-lineman in the first.

If Smith is gone, I'd be very happy if they traded down and took a pass rusher. It'd be very hard to pass on Smith. But if they trade down and get another 2nd-round pick, they could get a very good WR prospect in the 2nd: Terrace Marshall, Dyami Brown, maybe Rashod Bateman or Kadarius Toney if they fall.

Just draft the right guys. No more busts.

Not one was on any of the FA info. It was more national reporters. The only info they had was when they piggybacked off of people like Josina.

If Raanan is getting outside info on prospects then I will not discount any of that info. But anything coming from inside the Giants organization I do not believe even if it sounds correct.

I'd slow your roll.

In comment 15217530 JonC said:

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I'd slow your roll.

Spill, JonC. What do you know? Lol

In comment 15217530 JonC said:

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I'd slow your roll.

Nah, I've seen enough.

Odd he didn't mention WR.

Sounds like it is WR at 11 or EDGE if all WR’s are gone. I’d love a trade down if there’s a fit though.

That they're hot on ER Jaelen Phillips. I feel like we are desperate for a guy with his ability, and there's noone close.

Kwity Paye might also be a solid pick, but I think he's a Kiwanuka clone, and career trajectory could be very similar. Not bad, but also not remarkable.

In comment 15217540 knowledgetimmons said:

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That they're hot on ER Jaelen Phillips. I feel like we are desperate for a guy with his ability, and there's noone close. Kwity Paye might also be a solid pick, but I think he's a Kiwanuka clone, and career trajectory could be very similar. Not bad, but also not remarkable.

I’d hate to look at the inside of Phillips’ head and I’m not even a neurologist/neurosurgeon.

In comment 15217540 knowledgetimmons said:

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That they're hot on ER Jaelen Phillips. I feel like we are desperate for a guy with his ability, and there's noone close. Kwity Paye might also be a solid pick, but I think he's a Kiwanuka clone, and career trajectory could be very similar. Not bad, but also not remarkable.

Yeah, but Phillips already walked away from the game once. You might say he had cause to do so, but the Giants can ill-afford to have their #1 pick be off the team in a year or two.

In comment 15217544 Eric from BBI said:

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In comment 15217540 knowledgetimmons said: Quote: That they're hot on ER Jaelen Phillips. I feel like we are desperate for a guy with his ability, and there's noone close. Kwity Paye might also be a solid pick, but I think he's a Kiwanuka clone, and career trajectory could be very similar. Not bad, but also not remarkable. Yeah, but Phillips already walked away from the game once. You might say he had cause to do so, but the Giants can ill-afford to have their #1 pick be off the team in a year or two.

I totally get your take, it's valid. As fans, we can't really dive into the unknowns that are far less unknown to those inside the building. The concussion thing is freaky, but it's guaranteed that some team is going to take a chance on him and will likely be rewarded significantly.

If I was GM, I'd take a shot from the hip this year considering it is all but a complete punt of a draft.

What exactly is new here?

there is a very good chance that one of these will still be there at 7 or 8, could easily move up to get.

All of the pundits are now mocking the 3 QBs, and Pitts/Sewell/Chase at 1-6. It would only take one QB needy team or one of the non-Sewell OLine/CBs into the 4-6 that would change the dynamics of the order. Car/Den would be nice landing spots this year - IMO worth a 3rd round pick or so.

With that said, I have a hard time believing that one of Smith/Waddle will not be there at #11 before CB/Edge is in play.

what Sy said would be great fits for what NYG wants in their edge re: Ojulari and Paye

Sewell is going to the Bengals

and pick up an extra 2nd rounder, draft Paye or Ojulari, take WR and interior OL in 2nd round with those two picks. sign me up for that if Smith is gone

can someone explain what "extensive work" means and how it relates to typical work done on most prospects?

Do they look at more film?
Do they interview acquaintances?
Do they look at more medicals?
Do they have them in for a personal visit?

thank you.

But isn't Paye more of a 4-3 DE?

inside the organization or is he just putting one and one together?

Maybe it's possible that the Giants have caught on to what other teams have been doing for years and that's using the media to set up smoke screens.

I think in the past I think they have been guilty of having leaks and have telegraphed their picks.

In comment 15217544 Eric from BBI said:

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In comment 15217540 knowledgetimmons said: Quote: That they're hot on ER Jaelen Phillips. I feel like we are desperate for a guy with his ability, and there's noone close. Kwity Paye might also be a solid pick, but I think he's a Kiwanuka clone, and career trajectory could be very similar. Not bad, but also not remarkable. Yeah, but Phillips already walked away from the game once. You might say he had cause to do so, but the Giants can ill-afford to have their #1 pick be off the team in a year or two.

+1. I'm also inclined to say no to Waddle because of his foot.

have had one of the worst defenses in the league for the last 3 years. odd to me that nobody is talking about Surtain with their pick

And it would suck to have the Giants pass on him and then see him have a great career someplace else.

But the Giants are in the position they are in because they've botched so many draft picks. Adoree Jackson was signed because they screwed up the Deandre Baker pick.

If the Giants didn't screw up so many picks in recent years, they could afford to take more chances.

i think "extensive" goes beyond the typical medicals, pro day, talking to coaches, etc...and then falls into the family background, type of kid, would he fit the culture, etc.

For example - it appeared NYG did almost none of that with Flowers and Apple

to Atlanta at 4. If memory serves right, he said that it's a poorly kept secret.

In comment 15217571 aimrocky said:

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to Atlanta at 4. If memory serves right, he said that it's a poorly kept secret.

yep, he did say that. i guess i'm just surprised. they are always the team that can put up 30 points a game but they lose 38-31

In comment 15217570 ryanmkeane said:

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i think "extensive" goes beyond the typical medicals, pro day, talking to coaches, etc...and then falls into the family background, type of kid, would he fit the culture, etc. For example - it appeared NYG did almost none of that with Flowers and Apple

So something unique maybe to Judge or at least something most teams do on players they are considering at their draft spot?

In comment 15217567 ryanmkeane said:

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have had one of the worst defenses in the league for the last 3 years. odd to me that nobody is talking about Surtain with their pick

They're chasing offensive weapons to keep Ryan effective in his later years.

seems like a guy that most NFL teams will be higher on than the draft gurus

are looking at the DE's in case of a potential trade down. I don't see them drafting one sitting at 11. At 11 I think they will see who falls to them. Smith, possibly waddle, slater or surtain. They might even have preliminary discussions already with another team like new England or Chicago if a quarterback is available they want.

In comment 15217559 ryanmkeane said:

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and pick up an extra 2nd rounder, draft Paye or Ojulari, take WR and interior OL in 2nd round with those two picks. sign me up for that if Smith is gone

I'm all for this scenario.

If the Giants feel like Smith is such a difference maker and he's there at #11, I'm okay taking him. Otherwise trade down (hello, NE), draft Paye or Ojulari and pick up Dyami Brown or someone else who can stretch the field in round 2. The other round 2 pick should go based on value (either LB or IOL). Personally, I think there's greater depth in the IOL class that this position can wait until the 3rd round and LB will be the better mesh between BPA and need in round 2.

yep, for example...Judge wants guys that don't care if they get coached hard, get held accountable, and can take to legitimate coaching and critiques. Lots of guys coming into the league probably think they are better than they are and they don't need the extra coaching. Flowers was 100% like that, i mean he even said in interviews how he wasn't going to change much about his play, it will take care of itself, etc.

Judge and the front office want to identify guys that are gonna put in the extra stuff. Andrew Thomas had a rough start, but if you notice in his interviews he is ALWAYS mentioning getting better with technique, changes, and coaching

....about free agency.

Ojualari at 11 would be a total remote thrower for me. A 6' 2" Edge who runs a 4.6 40 vs. an amazing prospect like Jaelan Phillips? Watch Ojulari's "highlights" vs. Bama in 2020. On more than half of the reps he's either overmatched or completely out of play.

Watching Phillips and then Ojulari is like watching Deacon Jones and then Cedric Jones.

In comment 15217559 ryanmkeane said:

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and pick up an extra 2nd rounder, draft Paye or Ojulari, take WR and interior OL in 2nd round with those two picks. sign me up for that if Smith is gone

Yeah, if they want to take an ER, trade down.

25% Paye/Ojulari at 11

15% Trade back for edge/Paye/Ojulari

10% Surtain (I don't think he makes it to 11)

don't just conveniently toss that factoid away because it doesn't suit.

take a QB

In comment 15217594 bc4life said:

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take a QB

that would be awesome

In comment 15217592 Chris684 said:

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25% Paye/Ojulari at 11 15% Trade back for edge/Paye/Ojulari 10% Surtain (I don't think he makes it to 11)

Gut feeling / hope - bump that 15% to much higher.

As much as I like Smith, a draft of Edge Kwitty Paye, WR Dyami Brown, LB Jamin Davis or Pete Werner, and then say IOL Ben Cleveland is to me, a homerun draft.

In comment 15217567 ryanmkeane said:

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have had one of the worst defenses in the league for the last 3 years. odd to me that nobody is talking about Surtain with their pick

Don't think Surtain is top 5 caliber. But if they aren't moving on from Ryan you might as well give him something to work with. Jones can't be counted on for 16/17 games anymore and Ridley is set to be paid - could they offload him for picks to re-tool post Ryan next year?

from everything we've seen, he's ranked in the 10-16 spot, and is regarded by Sy as the highest rated defender in the draft along with Parsons and Surtain, they are all at 85.

So, maybe it isn't flashy, but Paye is not a reach at 11

yep, i really like Calvin Ridley though. he seems like a keeper for them

....on Parsons to the Giants at 11. He's my guy with Tryon in the 2nd. Dee-fense!

related article
link - ( New Window )

I would presume Judge would choose the player he's more familiar with and take the Bulldog.

I never thought Phillips or Rousseau would be this staff's radar as much as Reese's.

Roche OTOH, maybe.

In comment 15217589 ryanmkeane said:

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yep, for example...Judge wants guys that don't care if they get coached hard, get held accountable, and can take to legitimate coaching and critiques. Lots of guys coming into the league probably think they are better than they are and they don't need the extra coaching. Flowers was 100% like that, i mean he even said in interviews how he wasn't going to change much about his play, it will take care of itself, etc. Judge and the front office want to identify guys that are gonna put in the extra stuff. Andrew Thomas had a rough start, but if you notice in his interviews he is ALWAYS mentioning getting better with technique, changes, and coaching

Thanks, makes sense

Slayton is a guy who coming out of the draft the Giants loved because of his work ethic and the extra stuff he puts into the game, his kinda all business personality. Likely one of the reasons he has been productive for a 5th round pick - that's the kind of background stuff that NYG will do with Ojulari - cause he has incredible measureables

.
Draft Nuggets Episode - ( New Window )

what they don't say. We have been screwing up drafting since Ernie Accorsi left.

In comment 15217610 ryanmkeane said:

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Slayton is a guy who coming out of the draft the Giants loved because of his work ethic and the extra stuff he puts into the game, his kinda all business personality. Likely one of the reasons he has been productive for a 5th round pick - that's the kind of background stuff that NYG will do with Ojulari - cause he has incredible measureables

I heard an interview with him and he exuded all that stuff. Was hoping that he'd take next step this year, doubt it happens, but he still should have a productive long career ala tedd ginn Jr.

but he really does scream "Judge and Graham". And there's always that point at which effort and desire transcend talent - so I would imagine if taken its because they think he will work his ass off and can improve his pass rushing over time.

is Waddle, wonder if it's accurate, because he might be last receiver standing at #11, and then would they pick him over trading down for an Edge.

fwiw.

In comment 15217623 JonC said:

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is Waddle, wonder if it's accurate, because he might be last receiver standing at #11, and then would they pick him over trading down for an Edge.

I think the skepticism is mainly over his ankle injury.

and other sources re: Parsons.

other than TO and Thomas Davis, can't even think of too many pros who have made that kind of decision, no less an amateur athlete who had every excuse necessary to not play (and could have come out of the game at any time).

really like to trade down, but the Giants are always reluctant to do so, and I'm not sure anyone will want to trade up anyway. I'm fine with Smith, but if he's gone, I'm concerned they will over draft an EDGE at #11.

In comment 15217623 JonC said:

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is Waddle, wonder if it's accurate, because he might be last receiver standing at #11, and then would they pick him over trading down for an Edge.

I wouldn't. That was a serious injury, he's not fully recovered, and I assume he had plates and screws inserted as part of the surgery to stabilize his ankle and joint. He also hasn't been able to train like he would have normally, and didn't run at his pro day IIRC. We need a clean player. A trade down would also give us much needed additional draft capital this year or next.

you could argue both ways that he actually might be the best fit at WR for today's NFL, and on the other side of the coin you could say he's too much of a gadget type

That being said, his athleticism and explosiveness once the ball is in his hands is something to behold

and Tyreek Hill is basically uncoverable. You can't jam him because he's too quick, and you can't play off him because he will just run right past you. That's what Waddle can bring, it just depends on the injury

for Smith, it would be a much much better and more athletic version of Robert Woods. incredibly smooth, soft hands, catches everything, body control, route running, all of these things are 10/10, it's just the size you worry about, but he plays physical

In comment 15217593 JonC said:

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don't just conveniently toss that factoid away because it doesn't suit.

Then I guess we hope they cut Shepard. If NCAA would institute the policy that UCLA does with their players then there'd be no one left to draft.

I'm only tossing it aside like most college programs do. The Phillips concussion situation has been blown way out of proportion. Kid wants to play football, and fortunately people are still allowed to make their own decisions in this country. For now.

In comment 15217540 knowledgetimmons said:

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That they're hot on ER Jaelen Phillips. I feel like we are desperate for a guy with his ability, and there's noone close. Kwity Paye might also be a solid pick, but I think he's a Kiwanuka clone, and career trajectory could be very similar. Not bad, but also not remarkable.

Good God, big NO on both counts. and Paye is NOT a Kiwanuka clone, nowhere close; in fact, they're quite different players in strengths and weaknesses.

In comment 15217643 knowledgetimmons said:

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In comment 15217593 JonC said: Quote: don't just conveniently toss that factoid away because it doesn't suit. Then I guess we hope they cut Shepard. If NCAA would institute the policy that UCLA does with their players then there'd be no one left to draft. I'm only tossing it aside like most college programs do. The Phillips concussion situation has been blown way out of proportion. Kid wants to play football, and fortunately people are still allowed to make their own decisions in this country. For now.

Apples and oranges. BBI is really bad at logic, sometimes.

be because the Giants are higher on what we have than we think? It sure seems this way.

I asked myself why this could exactly be? I then had this interesting thought. What if the Giants are considering having Lemiuex who took snaps at OC last year as a rook, be our OC this year and move Gates to RG which is the position that could be used for pulling in an outside ZBS for Barkley?

Consider this: Lemeiux if you watched enough Skinner's review , it was pretty clear it's not only technique with him but foot speed. He has a lot of great qualities but I don't think he simply has the foot speed to play anywhere but OC. At OC his strengths are potentially maximized while covering some of his weaknesses. And Gates is our multi purpose OL, he can play practically anywhere on the OL and do it well. But here's the thing, RG may be where his skillset projects the best for this team.

So Gates at G and Shane at C maybe a much stronger combo than Gates at C and Lemeiux at G

No, don't think so.

In comment 15217650 JonC said:

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In comment 15217643 knowledgetimmons said: Quote: In comment 15217593 JonC said: Quote: don't just conveniently toss that factoid away because it doesn't suit. Then I guess we hope they cut Shepard. If NCAA would institute the policy that UCLA does with their players then there'd be no one left to draft. I'm only tossing it aside like most college programs do. The Phillips concussion situation has been blown way out of proportion. Kid wants to play football, and fortunately people are still allowed to make their own decisions in this country. For now. Apples and oranges. BBI is really bad at logic, sometimes.

WOW. The number of people who continue to discount the concussion issue is just eye opening. I want no part of a guy with that kind of history, at #11 of RD 1. That is too big a risk. The draft is a crapshoot already do you want to add to the potential failure by having a guy who is one concussion away from being done with football? We can't take that risk.

My first prioirtiy is bpa, which at #11 is *only* a WR (other than Sewell).

If you're not going WR, then there's no value there, IMO. Move back and then and only then, choose based on perceived need.

as the C in the second half of the year. He's got that OC mentality too, let's keep him there

just like we cant find a name that is clearly a franchise making player (clearly is the operative word) that couldnt be found at 13-16; I doubt that once the QB's are gone, there are many teams who would give up a round 2 to move a few slots.

Good year/bad year to be at 11

shouldn't preclude trying to get better at C. He was ok after a brutal start. Use pencil, not pen, yet.

In comment 15217658 Bill2 said:

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just like we cant find a name that is clearly a franchise making player (clearly is the operative word) that couldnt be found at 13-16; I doubt that once the QB's are gone, there are many teams who would give up a round 2 to move a few slots. Good year/bad year to be at 11

Agreed. It would have been a *great* year to have Philadelphia play to win a game.

NYG are really hoping Smith falls to 11. You don't think twice if he is, and if not, you've got some nice 1B options at edge or Waddle

High character guy, really smart, very coachable, great locker room presence, he checks off a lot of boxes. While I would prefer it with a trade down, I'd be 100% on board with his as the pick.

Kwity Paye short video
link - ( New Window )

In comment 15217593 JonC said:

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don't just conveniently toss that factoid away because it doesn't suit.

It should be black letter law by now, but for some 'head trauma or concussion history' is viewed analogously to other injuries that actually heal. A season ending ACL is serious, but after surgery and serious re-hab, the player can and often does come back 'stronger'. It's simply not the case and a player with that history can't be viewed as having 'recovered'. The only re-hab for concussion is 'time' whereby symptoms resolve, but the underlying vulnerability remains. Jon, I know you know this; just using your post to try to hammer this home for some.

But general manager Dave Gettleman and coach Joe Judge have each stated that Lemieux will be a more versatile player in Giants blue. Lemieux will get a look at center, where the team has several starting candidates and where he has put in some work. And the 6-4, 310-pounder will likely get reps at right guard as the Giants look to build a line that is not only talented and deep, but flexible.

"I understood that this game is all about versatility," Lemieux said on a Zoom interview today. "I think that me getting good at all three interior positions is going to benefit me well in the future. I don't really have a position. I just want to be ready whenever I get in, to be ready to play whatever coach asks me to.

"Versatility is the biggest factor in this game," he said. "Coaches want to be able to put you in multiple spots. I have really good mentors that told me that at training camp, no matter where you are, they are going to throw you in, and you have to be ready. I just want to be prepared before that happened. Even at pro day, somebody asked me to jump in at center and I was ready to do that. It just all works out and versatility is key."

Lemieux has some familiarity playing other positions. He played both tackles spots at West Valley High School in Yakima, Wash. In college, he practiced at right guard.

"I've been all over," Lemieux said. "I think I don't really have any place where I'm comfortable. I think I'm a natural offensive lineman where I can play any position I'm asked. I think that's just been a lot of work. Obviously, there's techniques and differences between each position. There's set differences if you're a guard, if you're a tackle, if you're at center. I think it's just the more reps, the more comfortable you are at a position. I've taken so many reps over my career, I'm comfortable at any position."

Shane practicing at OC - ( New Window )

In comment 15217559 ryanmkeane said:

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and pick up an extra 2nd rounder, draft Paye or Ojulari, take WR and interior OL in 2nd round with those two picks. sign me up for that if Smith is gone

I agree, that would be ideal, but it's kind of hard to finesse a trade down in that small a window. You would need one of only 4-5 teams to want to move up enough to give up a pick. If they have enough conviction on a guy like Ojulari, they have to be willing to pull the trigger at 11.

In comment 15217653 JonC said:

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No, don't think so.

It's funny how guys create different handles and yet, they are easily seen to be the past account that was riddled with ignorance.

In comment 15217594 bc4life said:

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take a QB

Word from Falcon hqtr is a couple fold...they are not opposed to taking a QB at #4 but haven't heard yet who they are most attached to. Did hear they are listening to offers to drop down with the idea of getting several defensive prospects on Day 1 & 2.

A lot of the media is guessing on them going with Pitts but haven't heard his name specifically yet.

In comment 15217678 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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In comment 15217653 JonC said: Quote: No, don't think so. It's funny how guys create different handles and yet, they are easily seen to be the past account that was riddled with ignorance.

JerseyJoe'd

and an easy choice. As we’ve heard here before, if no WR is available at #11, then a trade down would be preferable. Need a trade partner however. If we trade down then Edge, I think Ojulari or Paye, would be the choice. If we could get an extra 2nd rounder, I think we’ll then see Oline and WR targeted there.

But I still haven't seen you try to explain why Lemieux at OC, Gates at RG is a bad idea? Gates has moved all over our OL just like Diehl has and has ability to play above average to very well at any position save perhaps LT. Most guys who know anyhting about OL say that OC is the position where you can hide slow feet the most. As opposed to Lemieux Gates has very good feet.

tells you he's pretty close to washing off the team, rather than a promotion to OG. C might be his best shot to stick, and even then he's replaceable. Don't overrate your own.

Could he have been miscast before this and Center was always where he belonged?

with the trade down, and then you also run the risk of Paye or Ojulari not being there at 15 or 16...then you are kind of doubly fucked. they would have to be comfortable with 3-4 players at that spot, not just 1 or two

but he was arguably their best OL last year.

If he played that well after a position change, what could he be like staying put for a few years?

In comment 15217705 bc4life said:

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Could he have been miscast before this and Center was always where he belonged?

Going from OT to C is an unusual switch, especially at the NFL level. Can't think of another time it's happened off the top of my head.

In comment 15217698 JonC said:

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tells you he's pretty close to washing off the team, rather than a promotion to OG. C might be his best shot to stick, and even then he's replaceable. Don't overrate your own.

From Zeirlein on Gates, which is kind of what I see with him. I believe his feet are better than you are giving him credit for. And they are certainly better than Lemiuex's.

Good foot quickness
Able to gain necessary ground in his first two kick-slides when he gets out of the blocks on time
Has extremely impressive mirror talent
Seamless ability to change direction without a stall
Catches inside moves and rides them into the line of scrimmage from left tackle spot
Adequate punch timing
Hands are strong and can lock into targets once he lands
Plays with balance as run blocker
Has move blocking ability
Adjusts to second-level movement

NFL.com Gates scouting report - ( New Window )

I believe that Sewell, Chase, and Pitts will be gone.

The Giants should take who ever is left from if they are there:
Smith
Slator
Surtain

A trade down would be appropriate if three QBs are taken and the three players above are taken. I will be upset if Smith and we pass and let the Eagles get him.

It will be interesting to hear any possible leaks on Phillips medicals. To me he stands out as the best edge player in this draft.

In comment 15217708 bc4life said:

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but he was arguably their best OL last year. If he played that well after a position change, what could he be like staying put for a few years?

With his feet and skillset RG might be his best spot.

Lemeiux's best spot might ONLY be OC, his feet are clearly worse than Gates are.

In comment 15217698 JonC said:

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tells you he's pretty close to washing off the team, rather than a promotion to OG. C might be his best shot to stick, and even then he's replaceable. Don't overrate your own.

That's an opinion I haven't seen before. I never considered that Gates going to C was a last resort kind of move. I thought he played really well last year. Couldn't imagine they're anything less than pleased with the results of that experiment.

In comment 15217711 Judge_and_Jury said:

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In comment 15217698 JonC said: Quote: tells you he's pretty close to washing off the team, rather than a promotion to OG. C might be his best shot to stick, and even then he's replaceable. Don't overrate your own. From Zeirlein on Gates, which is kind of what I see with him. I believe his feet are better than you are giving him credit for. And they are certainly better than Lemiuex's. Good foot quickness Able to gain necessary ground in his first two kick-slides when he gets out of the blocks on time Has extremely impressive mirror talent Seamless ability to change direction without a stall Catches inside moves and rides them into the line of scrimmage from left tackle spot Adequate punch timing Hands are strong and can lock into targets once he lands Plays with balance as run blocker Has move blocking ability Adjusts to second-level movement NFL.com Gates scouting report - ( New Window )

I'm going by what I see in the NFL. He's got the right attitude, hopefully he continues to improve. I just wouldn't make any decisions by handing Gates a job. Keep getting better, never stop.

I was expecting a lot longer learning curve from him.

RE: the edge rushers - I think as long as they have reasonable or comparable numbers (40, etc.) then I'd like to look at the first 2-3 seconds of every one of their plays. If they're going to be disruptive you should see it no later than that. and 3 is a bit late

In comment 15217718 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 15217698 JonC said: Quote: tells you he's pretty close to washing off the team, rather than a promotion to OG. C might be his best shot to stick, and even then he's replaceable. Don't overrate your own. That's an opinion I haven't seen before. I never considered that Gates going to C was a last resort kind of move. I thought he played really well last year. Couldn't imagine they're anything less than pleased with the results of that experiment.

Tackles kick inside to guard, but rarely to center. I'm sure they're pleased, but not a player to rest on laurels with.

In comment 15217715 Rick in Dallas said:

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It will be interesting to hear any possible leaks on Phillips medicals. To me he stands out as the best edge player in this draft.

Rick, but arent concussions kind of ambiguous on concussions?

yeah I here you - Don't settle...

Duh....medicals

In comment 15217707 ryanmkeane said:

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with the trade down, and then you also run the risk of Paye or Ojulari not being there at 15 or 16...then you are kind of doubly fucked. they would have to be comfortable with 3-4 players at that spot, not just 1 or two

I think that is a given. I'm less worried that there's not a player a few picks later whom they like than I am a willing trade partner to give fair value.

In comment 15217718 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 15217698 JonC said: Quote: tells you he's pretty close to washing off the team, rather than a promotion to OG. C might be his best shot to stick, and even then he's replaceable. Don't overrate your own. That's an opinion I haven't seen before. I never considered that Gates going to C was a last resort kind of move. I thought he played really well last year. Couldn't imagine they're anything less than pleased with the results of that experiment.

Agreed. He was a VERY pleasant surprise. His mean streak was not misplaced, it was totally focused on the task he was given. The Staff appeared to like his tough, take no prisoners attitude, be it C or anywhere else he was placed. Kind of reminds me of a Seubert or Deihl..I doubt it was perform well at C or bye bye..He is one player I feel secure with on the OL (Thomas seemed to come on nicely)..

Could Phillips drop to the Giants in the second round?

In comment 15217724 JonC said:

Quote:

In comment 15217711 Judge_and_Jury said: Quote: In comment 15217698 JonC said: Quote: tells you he's pretty close to washing off the team, rather than a promotion to OG. C might be his best shot to stick, and even then he's replaceable. Don't overrate your own. From Zeirlein on Gates, which is kind of what I see with him. I believe his feet are better than you are giving him credit for. And they are certainly better than Lemiuex's. Good foot quickness Able to gain necessary ground in his first two kick-slides when he gets out of the blocks on time Has extremely impressive mirror talent Seamless ability to change direction without a stall Catches inside moves and rides them into the line of scrimmage from left tackle spot Adequate punch timing Hands are strong and can lock into targets once he lands Plays with balance as run blocker Has move blocking ability Adjusts to second-level movement NFL.com Gates scouting report - ( New Window ) I'm going by what I see in the NFL. He's got the right attitude, hopefully he continues to improve. I just wouldn't make any decisions by handing Gates a job. Keep getting better, never stop.

Not against this approach in the least Jon. But knowing a bit about how the Giants operate I think they want to give these guys the best chance to stick. OC may be a pretty good spot for Shane. Shane's feet are NOT good for any other position. LG maybe but he'll still be below average as a pass pro guy IMO. Gates on the other hand , my perspective is he can give us something pretty good at RG with his footwork/coordination especially in a ZBS vs power gap scheme. Fulton is not a guy you want starting if you can help it. Murphy is an unknown but I've heard some good things.

Sure we want to get better but it sure seems like we aren't going OL round 1 (save perhaps the unlikely of Sewell dropping) and robably not even round 2 if we haven't got the EDGE by then. Gates at RG, Lemiuex at C could in theory give us guys that won't embarrass themselves at either position leaving just one spot potentially (LG) that needs an upgrade. In the top 2 rounds the Tackles or the guys with good tackle versatility will probably be going first leaving some pretty strong OG options in round 3 potentially.

no explosion and always following the play, even in his highlights of which he didn't make a tackle. Duh!

In comment 15217738 Rick in Dallas said:

Quote:

Could Phillips drop to the Giants in the second round?

Doubt it. Someone’s going to take a shot on him in round 1. Maybe Miami or the Titans.

Judge would want Paye. Guy is a man among boys out there and is stout, really quick twitch and can move around on the DL, but with a high motor and pass rush upside. I think him and Graham might prefer that with Ojulari who seems more of just a 1 trick pony sack guy around the edge

He's physical and had a very good Pro Day. And reportedly very coachable

In comment 15217736 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 15217718 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 15217698 JonC said: Quote: tells you he's pretty close to washing off the team, rather than a promotion to OG. C might be his best shot to stick, and even then he's replaceable. Don't overrate your own. That's an opinion I haven't seen before. I never considered that Gates going to C was a last resort kind of move. I thought he played really well last year. Couldn't imagine they're anything less than pleased with the results of that experiment. Agreed. He was a VERY pleasant surprise. His mean streak was not misplaced, it was totally focused on the task he was given. The Staff appeared to like his tough, take no prisoners attitude, be it C or anywhere else he was placed. Kind of reminds me of a Seubert or Deihl..I doubt it was perform well at C or bye bye..He is one player I feel secure with on the OL (Thomas seemed to come on nicely)..

Perform well or sit on the bench for that season. Thomas is the one potential building block they have, and even he has his warts from college that showed up in games last season. I hate to say it, but their OL rebuild still needs a lot of parts. It's just unlikely to arrive at #11, imv.

comps for Paye as to his ultimate upside

In comment 15217671 bc4life said:

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Kwity Paye short video link - ( New Window )

Wow...all-time easy to root for guy.

In comment 15217759 JonC said:

Quote:

In comment 15217736 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: In comment 15217718 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 15217698 JonC said: Quote: tells you he's pretty close to washing off the team, rather than a promotion to OG. C might be his best shot to stick, and even then he's replaceable. Don't overrate your own. That's an opinion I haven't seen before. I never considered that Gates going to C was a last resort kind of move. I thought he played really well last year. Couldn't imagine they're anything less than pleased with the results of that experiment. Agreed. He was a VERY pleasant surprise. His mean streak was not misplaced, it was totally focused on the task he was given. The Staff appeared to like his tough, take no prisoners attitude, be it C or anywhere else he was placed. Kind of reminds me of a Seubert or Deihl..I doubt it was perform well at C or bye bye..He is one player I feel secure with on the OL (Thomas seemed to come on nicely).. Perform well or sit on the bench for that season. Thomas is the one potential building block they have, and even he has his warts from college that showed up in games last season. I hate to say it, but their OL rebuild still needs a lot of parts. It's just unlikely to arrive at #11, imv.

Would Paye be worthy of the 11th pick, iyo? Perhaps your answer would depend on who’s sitting there, but “worthy-wise,” what say you?

The precedent is there with the Giants starting a run at their biggest position of need even if the perceived value wasn't necessarily there. It certainly happened last year and to a lesser extent with Jones two years ago. I'd start mentally preparing for that if you're really against it. I think the option to potentially trade down is more likely to be there this year vs last but standing pat and taking the first Edge off the board at 11 certainly tracks with recent history.

I dunno about Paye at #11. He looks pretty raw to me and I don't see alot of bend to get around the edge, or a ton of finishing ability. He's multiple, he's disruptive, but I don't see a finisher. If they draft him I'll certainly get behind the pick, they're the professionals. I like him better than Olujari and Phillips' concussions scare me away at #11.

If he's their guy at #11, and then add a WR at #42, CB or OG at #74, you've got a good start on paper.

In comment 15217759 JonC said:

Quote:

In comment 15217736 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: In comment 15217718 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 15217698 JonC said: Quote: tells you he's pretty close to washing off the team, rather than a promotion to OG. C might be his best shot to stick, and even then he's replaceable. Don't overrate your own. That's an opinion I haven't seen before. I never considered that Gates going to C was a last resort kind of move. I thought he played really well last year. Couldn't imagine they're anything less than pleased with the results of that experiment. Agreed. He was a VERY pleasant surprise. His mean streak was not misplaced, it was totally focused on the task he was given. The Staff appeared to like his tough, take no prisoners attitude, be it C or anywhere else he was placed. Kind of reminds me of a Seubert or Deihl..I doubt it was perform well at C or bye bye..He is one player I feel secure with on the OL (Thomas seemed to come on nicely).. Perform well or sit on the bench for that season. Thomas is the one potential building block they have, and even he has his warts from college that showed up in games last season. I hate to say it, but their OL rebuild still needs a lot of parts. It's just unlikely to arrive at #11, imv.

Tough to swallow with all the resources DG has already put into this line. Not sure how anyone inside the building can be pleased with this continuous issue still not solved.

Thanks for the nuggets, JonC.

In comment 15217742 gtt350 said:

Quote:

no explosion and always following the play, even in his highlights of which he didn't make a tackle. Duh!

He led the team in sacks, tackles for loss, QB hits, and was 5th in total tackles.

Are you sure you identified the right player?

I have found it difficult to separate reliably sourced information from the internet version of "telephone" where one un-sourced report gets picked up and enhanced by the next un-sourced report.

As best I can tell, Phillips' name was never publicly associated with the word "concussion" until the day in October 2018 when Chip Kelly announced he had suffered one and was done for his soph year.

In December 2018 came the announcement of the medical retirement. In reporting on the retirement, the LA Times said Phillips had also suffered a concussion in 2017 but didn't suggest a source for its information.

The Times' reporting of two concussions was repeated by other outlets. Then the number of concussions became three, then four, and then a report that Phillips had suffered one at ten years old.

In none of these reports is there a reference to a source, even one that can't be revealed. The authors simply assert their alleged knowledge of Phillips' medical history as a matter of fact.

It makes sense that Phillips suffered more than one concussion given that UCLA encouraged the medical retirement but the impression I get from the reporting is of people pretending to a certainty of knowledge that cannot be reliably backed up.

In comment 15217744 jeff57 said:

Quote:

In comment 15217738 Rick in Dallas said: Quote: Could Phillips drop to the Giants in the second round? Doubt it. Someone’s going to take a shot on him in round 1. Maybe Miami or the Titans.

Those savages!

In comment 15217738 Rick in Dallas said:

Quote:

Could Phillips drop to the Giants in the second round?

I dont see it possible as he tested off the charts. I also dont know what kind of effect the concussions will have on a DE going forward. So I havent considered it.

Smith at 11 and Philips at 42???? I wont even consider the possibility.

but with his concussion history, why even go there?

In comment 15217824 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

but with his concussion history, why even go there?

the thought is if he didn't have the concussion history he would be a lock top 10 maybe even a top 5 talent in this draft at a premium position. He is the one guy that projects to be an all-pro level talent at that position. There are other quality guys but no one with his arsenal.

The injuries are a concern but Paye seems way to mechanical for my liking. Like he will be good but I see a limited upside. Thats tough to pick that high. But I get people being concerned with concussion too. But the talent of Phillips outweighs the low ceiling for Paye for me.

In comment 15217824 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

but with his concussion history, why even go there?

If his medical history makes him too big a risk at 11, he's just as big a risk at 42. We can't afford to throw away a Day 1 or Day 2 pick. If we had extra picks, maybe you roll the dice earlier on a guy with his ability.

In comment 15217852 Bill in UT said:

Quote:

In comment 15217824 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: but with his concussion history, why even go there? If his medical history makes him too big a risk at 11, he's just as big a risk at 42. We can't afford to throw away a Day 1 or Day 2 pick. If we had extra picks, maybe you roll the dice earlier on a guy with his ability.

Yup, that’s my thinking

he's also put on a lot of good weight over that period of time, as most CFB players do. His time off has also afforded him a lot less hits the last few years.

I'm not saying there's no risk but every player carries some level of risk. There was nothing in Andrew Luck's history that would have led you to believe he'd get as beat up as he did to the point he'd retire early. Also nothing about Frank Gores 3 major knee surgeries that would have thought it possible for him to still be playing at age 37. The biggest knock on AP was his injuries at OU and he's had an extremely durable career. You need to weight risk appropriately but also counter weight it against unpredictability.

In comment 15217817 shyster said:

Quote:

It makes sense that Phillips suffered more than one concussion given that UCLA encouraged the medical retirement but the impression I get from the reporting is of people pretending to a certainty of knowledge that cannot be reliably backed up.

shyster, HIPAA makes that the nature of the beast. No one is going to have access to his medical records without his consent, and those to whom he grants consent are themselves bound by confidentiality. So, the NFL draft world is left to divine by inference or unofficial leaks. Of course, he could release these and dispel all that misinformation out there, but that doesn't appear to be happening, at least not yet.

DE Jaelan Phillips, whose impressive Pro Day has him rising up draft boards, was not in Indy last week for medical evaluations because he tested positive for COVID-19, source said, though he’ll receive his physical with plenty of time prior to Draft night.
Rapoport. - ( New Window )

In comment 15217875 BigBlueCane said:

Quote:

DE Jaelan Phillips, whose impressive Pro Day has him rising up draft boards, was not in Indy last week for medical evaluations because he tested positive for COVID-19, source said, though he’ll receive his physical with plenty of time prior to Draft night. Rapoport. - ( New Window )

Whether he got sick or not, major red flag. This guy sounds like he is dodging evals, lookingfor that rookie 1st round deal and down-sh9ft after that.

This might be my only remote thrower in the draft.

In comment 15217853 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 15217852 Bill in UT said: Quote: In comment 15217824 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: but with his concussion history, why even go there? If his medical history makes him too big a risk at 11, he's just as big a risk at 42. We can't afford to throw away a Day 1 or Day 2 pick. If we had extra picks, maybe you roll the dice earlier on a guy with his ability. Yup, that’s my thinking

If he is there in the 4th round, I would give it serious consideration. And thats a stretch.

In comment 15217860 ColHowPepper said:

Quote:

shyster, HIPAA makes that the nature of the beast. No one is going to have access to his medical records without his consent, and those to whom he grants consent are themselves bound by confidentiality. So, the NFL draft world is left to divine by inference or unofficial leaks. Of course, he could release these and dispel all that misinformation out there, but that doesn't appear to be happening, at least not yet.

That would be my point: the information is nominally behind a wall and I cannot find one report claiming to be sourced in a breach in the wall, which leaves no trail to follow to the reliability of the reporting.

In comment 15217728 JonC said:

Quote:

In comment 15217718 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 15217698 JonC said: Quote: tells you he's pretty close to washing off the team, rather than a promotion to OG. C might be his best shot to stick, and even then he's replaceable. Don't overrate your own. That's an opinion I haven't seen before. I never considered that Gates going to C was a last resort kind of move. I thought he played really well last year. Couldn't imagine they're anything less than pleased with the results of that experiment. Tackles kick inside to guard, but rarely to center. I'm sure they're pleased, but not a player to rest on laurels with.

After his first year I thought Justin Pugh's best spot would've been Center end then we went and drafted Richburg. Both guys were too small and light to play Guard and we know that Pugh didn't have the length, feet, or technique to play Tackle effectively. Both guys missed too much game time with minor injuries.

a G/T type and a G/C type

In comment 15217710 JonC said:

Quote:

In comment 15217705 bc4life said: Quote: Could he have been miscast before this and Center was always where he belonged? Going from OT to C is an unusual switch, especially at the NFL level. Can't think of another time it's happened off the top of my head.

Only ones I can think of were both Giants: Adam Koets and Chris Bober.

In comment 15217540 knowledgetimmons said:

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That they're hot on ER Jaelen Phillips. I feel like we are desperate for a guy with his ability, and there's noone close. Kwity Paye might also be a solid pick, but I think he's a Kiwanuka clone, and career trajectory could be very similar. Not bad, but also not remarkable.

I thought of that too, but Kiwi was trying to fit in a 4-3. Graham’s defense makes tweeners an advantage.

In comment 15217824 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

but with his concussion history, why even go there?

Well then you know enough... ;)

Definitely a talented player, but the risk seems way too great for a high investment. I like Caleb Farley quite a bit as a corner prospect, but he's had two back surgeries (one last month) and I wouldn't touch him now until the second round.

In comment 15217906 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 15217710 JonC said:Going from OT to C is an unusual switch, especially at the NFL level. Can't think of another time it's happened off the top of my head./// Only ones I can think of were both Giants: Adam Koets and Chris Bober.

That's pretty funny, make mine shaken, not stirred. Giants have been trying to cover up for their jaw-dropping inability to draft competent OL via ponzi scheme.

In comment 15217623 JonC said:

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is Waddle, wonder if it's accurate, because he might be last receiver standing at #11, and then would they pick him over trading down for an Edge.

I think Waddle will be there and be the pick.

they are talking about drafting an EDGE due to need. but this team has so many needs. LG, RG, RT, WR, CB, EDGE, ILB, TE, RB, and we can debate this or not but also QB. the key to this draft shouldn't be getting an EDGE player. it should be drafting good players.

the EDGE guys have serious questions marks. all of them. so DON'T DRAFT THEM. draft into the strength of this draft (WR, OL, CB).

there are VERY good OL prospects in this draft. Tucker would be great on this line as would Tevin Jenkins. hell if they want to trade back and then trade up into the first round they might be able to get them BOTH. how great would this line look with two stud OGs?

draft Smith is he's there at 11 or waddle. both are going to be superstars. then grab 2 OL and a CB with your next picks and you're in business.

forcing an EDGE pick in this draft is so stupid and short sighted (so it sounds exactly like that the giants will do).

and i hate to break it to people. i don't think the giants are going to be very good. i get it, they played lots of close games last year and they got better. but i look at this team. bad offensive coordinator, bad qb, and bad offensive line. that does not sound like a recipe for success. and all i hear about now is them wanting to plug a need with their first pick in a bad EDGE class. that's why and how bad teams stay bad.

That Ojulari in round 1 is bound to happen. I don't know if it will be at 11- should probably be later.

But the UGA connection, long arms, and scheme fit...this guys screams Giants pick.

been a fairly confident choice by the FO and coaches otherwise there would have been somebody else brought in during the offseason.

Ya’ think?

Nevertheless, I am all for an interior C/G type to be drafted Day 2 or early Day 3...

In comment 15217962 GiantsFan84 said:

Quote:

they are talking about drafting an EDGE due to need. but this team has so many needs. LG, RG, RT, WR, CB, EDGE, ILB, TE, RB, and we can debate this or not but also QB. the key to this draft shouldn't be getting an EDGE player. it should be drafting good players. the EDGE guys have serious questions marks. all of them. so DON'T DRAFT THEM. draft into the strength of this draft (WR, OL, CB). there are VERY good OL prospects in this draft. Tucker would be great on this line as would Tevin Jenkins. hell if they want to trade back and then trade up into the first round they might be able to get them BOTH. how great would this line look with two stud OGs? draft Smith is he's there at 11 or waddle. both are going to be superstars. then grab 2 OL and a CB with your next picks and you're in business. forcing an EDGE pick in this draft is so stupid and short sighted (so it sounds exactly like that the giants will do). and i hate to break it to people. i don't think the giants are going to be very good. i get it, they played lots of close games last year and they got better. but i look at this team. bad offensive coordinator, bad qb, and bad offensive line. that does not sound like a recipe for success. and all i hear about now is them wanting to plug a need with their first pick in a bad EDGE class. that's why and how bad teams stay bad.

So you’re fine with the below-average and removing Carter and Ximines failing to get after the quarterback and the quarterback picking us apart if Williams and Lawrence are too slow to reach him?

In comment 15218198 Angel Eyes said:

Quote:

In comment 15217962 GiantsFan84 said: Quote: they are talking about drafting an EDGE due to need. but this team has so many needs. LG, RG, RT, WR, CB, EDGE, ILB, TE, RB, and we can debate this or not but also QB. the key to this draft shouldn't be getting an EDGE player. it should be drafting good players. the EDGE guys have serious questions marks. all of them. so DON'T DRAFT THEM. draft into the strength of this draft (WR, OL, CB). there are VERY good OL prospects in this draft. Tucker would be great on this line as would Tevin Jenkins. hell if they want to trade back and then trade up into the first round they might be able to get them BOTH. how great would this line look with two stud OGs? draft Smith is he's there at 11 or waddle. both are going to be superstars. then grab 2 OL and a CB with your next picks and you're in business. forcing an EDGE pick in this draft is so stupid and short sighted (so it sounds exactly like that the giants will do). and i hate to break it to people. i don't think the giants are going to be very good. i get it, they played lots of close games last year and they got better. but i look at this team. bad offensive coordinator, bad qb, and bad offensive line. that does not sound like a recipe for success. and all i hear about now is them wanting to plug a need with their first pick in a bad EDGE class. that's why and how bad teams stay bad. So you’re fine with the below-average and recovering Carter and Ximines failing to get after the quarterback and the quarterback picking us apart if Williams and Lawrence are too slow to reach him?

In comment 15218195 chick310 said:

Quote:

been a fairly confident choice by the FO and coaches otherwise there would have been somebody else brought in during the offseason. Ya’ think? Nevertheless, I am all for an interior C/G type to be drafted Day 2 or early Day 3...

Yes he played well there but if you look at the things said about him in scouting reports and the coaching staff they say they believe he can play many spots on the line. Judge values versatility and has preached it more than most former coaches. Gates feet are clearly better than Lemieux's. Lemieux had a 32.2 grade from PFF last year at OG. One of the worst grades in the entire NFL.

Skinner's reports also show a guy with a lot of nice skill you want but his feet are just not mobile enough at OG. Lemieux practiced OC last year and it may be his only good position to maximize his strength and minimize his lack of foot speed being exposed.

have been need pickers, especially early. At the same time, if you run some mocks it becomes clear Edge could be the pick, not instantly a see hole, fill hole pick.

I don't think it's Ojulari at #11, too early for him.

is a stud C. I hope people noticed that.

He struggled early, but was at a Pro Bowl level by midseason. It was extraordinary. Big and tough, but with surprising athleticism.

While Gates may have actually been MVP for the Offense, that is far more related to the showings of his teammates than him.

I do like his versatility and actually think that may be his strength and most valuable attribute to the Giants. But they would be best served to add another skilled body to the Center position in this draft. Especially if any free agent talent has dried up.

In comment 15217854 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

he's also put on a lot of good weight over that period of time, as most CFB players do. His time off has also afforded him a lot less hits the last few years. I'm not saying there's no risk but every player carries some level of risk. There was nothing in Andrew Luck's history that would have led you to believe he'd get as beat up as he did to the point he'd retire early. Also nothing about Frank Gores 3 major knee surgeries that would have thought it possible for him to still be playing at age 37. The biggest knock on AP was his injuries at OU and he's had an extremely durable career. You need to weight risk appropriately but also counter weight it against unpredictability.

You make some good points here concerning risk, but while weighing the risk, it's not like anyone views Phillips as a generational talent. Of course that could be wrong three years down the road, but this isn't a Khalil Mack, aaron donald type of prospect we're talking about. It's a good pass rusher in a weak crop. That has to factor in when talking about taking a chance on a guy who had to change schools to get cleared to play football again.

Generational is a strong word but I think Phillips without the concussions goes top 5-7. Calling him a 5 star recruit out of high school Is like calling Superman a weight lifter.

Just seems that talent at Edge in this particular Draft matches up moreso in the back half of Round One.

Add in the fact that the Giants were somewhat gunshy to go Edge when given the opportunity in the last few drafts (and free agency for that matter), that it just may not match their comfort zone as to positional risk.

Hopefully they don't reach here.

In comment 15218198 Angel Eyes said:

Quote:

In comment 15217962 GiantsFan84 said: Quote: they are talking about drafting an EDGE due to need. but this team has so many needs. LG, RG, RT, WR, CB, EDGE, ILB, TE, RB, and we can debate this or not but also QB. the key to this draft shouldn't be getting an EDGE player. it should be drafting good players. the EDGE guys have serious questions marks. all of them. so DON'T DRAFT THEM. draft into the strength of this draft (WR, OL, CB). there are VERY good OL prospects in this draft. Tucker would be great on this line as would Tevin Jenkins. hell if they want to trade back and then trade up into the first round they might be able to get them BOTH. how great would this line look with two stud OGs? draft Smith is he's there at 11 or waddle. both are going to be superstars. then grab 2 OL and a CB with your next picks and you're in business. forcing an EDGE pick in this draft is so stupid and short sighted (so it sounds exactly like that the giants will do). and i hate to break it to people. i don't think the giants are going to be very good. i get it, they played lots of close games last year and they got better. but i look at this team. bad offensive coordinator, bad qb, and bad offensive line. that does not sound like a recipe for success. and all i hear about now is them wanting to plug a need with their first pick in a bad EDGE class. that's why and how bad teams stay bad. So you’re fine with the below-average and removing Carter and Ximines failing to get after the quarterback and the quarterback picking us apart if Williams and Lawrence are too slow to reach him?

so you're fine with below average guards protecting jones allowing pressure right up the middle? or below average guards who cant block well for barkley? you're fine with an always hurt shep and unproven slayton as WR 2 and WR 3?

we can play that game all day. this team is going to have holes even after this draft. so don't force a bad pick when there are better options at other areas of need. this is not rocket science.