Raanan Draft Tidbits

is Waddle, wonder if it's accurate, because he might be last receiver standing at #11, and then would they pick him over trading down for an Edge.

fwiw.

In comment 15217623 JonC said:

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is Waddle, wonder if it's accurate, because he might be last receiver standing at #11, and then would they pick him over trading down for an Edge.

I think the skepticism is mainly over his ankle injury.

and other sources re: Parsons.

other than TO and Thomas Davis, can't even think of too many pros who have made that kind of decision, no less an amateur athlete who had every excuse necessary to not play (and could have come out of the game at any time).

really like to trade down, but the Giants are always reluctant to do so, and I'm not sure anyone will want to trade up anyway. I'm fine with Smith, but if he's gone, I'm concerned they will over draft an EDGE at #11.

In comment 15217623 JonC said:

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is Waddle, wonder if it's accurate, because he might be last receiver standing at #11, and then would they pick him over trading down for an Edge.

I wouldn't. That was a serious injury, he's not fully recovered, and I assume he had plates and screws inserted as part of the surgery to stabilize his ankle and joint. He also hasn't been able to train like he would have normally, and didn't run at his pro day IIRC. We need a clean player. A trade down would also give us much needed additional draft capital this year or next.

you could argue both ways that he actually might be the best fit at WR for today's NFL, and on the other side of the coin you could say he's too much of a gadget type

That being said, his athleticism and explosiveness once the ball is in his hands is something to behold

and Tyreek Hill is basically uncoverable. You can't jam him because he's too quick, and you can't play off him because he will just run right past you. That's what Waddle can bring, it just depends on the injury

for Smith, it would be a much much better and more athletic version of Robert Woods. incredibly smooth, soft hands, catches everything, body control, route running, all of these things are 10/10, it's just the size you worry about, but he plays physical

In comment 15217593 JonC said:

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don't just conveniently toss that factoid away because it doesn't suit.

Then I guess we hope they cut Shepard. If NCAA would institute the policy that UCLA does with their players then there'd be no one left to draft.

I'm only tossing it aside like most college programs do. The Phillips concussion situation has been blown way out of proportion. Kid wants to play football, and fortunately people are still allowed to make their own decisions in this country. For now.

In comment 15217540 knowledgetimmons said:

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That they're hot on ER Jaelen Phillips. I feel like we are desperate for a guy with his ability, and there's noone close. Kwity Paye might also be a solid pick, but I think he's a Kiwanuka clone, and career trajectory could be very similar. Not bad, but also not remarkable.

Good God, big NO on both counts. and Paye is NOT a Kiwanuka clone, nowhere close; in fact, they're quite different players in strengths and weaknesses.

In comment 15217643 knowledgetimmons said:

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In comment 15217593 JonC said: Quote: don't just conveniently toss that factoid away because it doesn't suit. Then I guess we hope they cut Shepard. If NCAA would institute the policy that UCLA does with their players then there'd be no one left to draft. I'm only tossing it aside like most college programs do. The Phillips concussion situation has been blown way out of proportion. Kid wants to play football, and fortunately people are still allowed to make their own decisions in this country. For now.

Apples and oranges. BBI is really bad at logic, sometimes.

be because the Giants are higher on what we have than we think? It sure seems this way.

I asked myself why this could exactly be? I then had this interesting thought. What if the Giants are considering having Lemiuex who took snaps at OC last year as a rook, be our OC this year and move Gates to RG which is the position that could be used for pulling in an outside ZBS for Barkley?

Consider this: Lemeiux if you watched enough Skinner's review , it was pretty clear it's not only technique with him but foot speed. He has a lot of great qualities but I don't think he simply has the foot speed to play anywhere but OC. At OC his strengths are potentially maximized while covering some of his weaknesses. And Gates is our multi purpose OL, he can play practically anywhere on the OL and do it well. But here's the thing, RG may be where his skillset projects the best for this team.

So Gates at G and Shane at C maybe a much stronger combo than Gates at C and Lemeiux at G

No, don't think so.

In comment 15217650 JonC said:

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In comment 15217643 knowledgetimmons said: Quote: In comment 15217593 JonC said: Quote: don't just conveniently toss that factoid away because it doesn't suit. Then I guess we hope they cut Shepard. If NCAA would institute the policy that UCLA does with their players then there'd be no one left to draft. I'm only tossing it aside like most college programs do. The Phillips concussion situation has been blown way out of proportion. Kid wants to play football, and fortunately people are still allowed to make their own decisions in this country. For now. Apples and oranges. BBI is really bad at logic, sometimes.

WOW. The number of people who continue to discount the concussion issue is just eye opening. I want no part of a guy with that kind of history, at #11 of RD 1. That is too big a risk. The draft is a crapshoot already do you want to add to the potential failure by having a guy who is one concussion away from being done with football? We can't take that risk.

My first prioirtiy is bpa, which at #11 is *only* a WR (other than Sewell).

If you're not going WR, then there's no value there, IMO. Move back and then and only then, choose based on perceived need.

as the C in the second half of the year. He's got that OC mentality too, let's keep him there

just like we cant find a name that is clearly a franchise making player (clearly is the operative word) that couldnt be found at 13-16; I doubt that once the QB's are gone, there are many teams who would give up a round 2 to move a few slots.

Good year/bad year to be at 11

shouldn't preclude trying to get better at C. He was ok after a brutal start. Use pencil, not pen, yet.

In comment 15217658 Bill2 said:

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just like we cant find a name that is clearly a franchise making player (clearly is the operative word) that couldnt be found at 13-16; I doubt that once the QB's are gone, there are many teams who would give up a round 2 to move a few slots. Good year/bad year to be at 11

Agreed. It would have been a *great* year to have Philadelphia play to win a game.

NYG are really hoping Smith falls to 11. You don't think twice if he is, and if not, you've got some nice 1B options at edge or Waddle

High character guy, really smart, very coachable, great locker room presence, he checks off a lot of boxes. While I would prefer it with a trade down, I'd be 100% on board with his as the pick.

Kwity Paye short video
link - ( New Window )

In comment 15217593 JonC said:

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don't just conveniently toss that factoid away because it doesn't suit.

It should be black letter law by now, but for some 'head trauma or concussion history' is viewed analogously to other injuries that actually heal. A season ending ACL is serious, but after surgery and serious re-hab, the player can and often does come back 'stronger'. It's simply not the case and a player with that history can't be viewed as having 'recovered'. The only re-hab for concussion is 'time' whereby symptoms resolve, but the underlying vulnerability remains. Jon, I know you know this; just using your post to try to hammer this home for some.

But general manager Dave Gettleman and coach Joe Judge have each stated that Lemieux will be a more versatile player in Giants blue. Lemieux will get a look at center, where the team has several starting candidates and where he has put in some work. And the 6-4, 310-pounder will likely get reps at right guard as the Giants look to build a line that is not only talented and deep, but flexible.

"I understood that this game is all about versatility," Lemieux said on a Zoom interview today. "I think that me getting good at all three interior positions is going to benefit me well in the future. I don't really have a position. I just want to be ready whenever I get in, to be ready to play whatever coach asks me to.

"Versatility is the biggest factor in this game," he said. "Coaches want to be able to put you in multiple spots. I have really good mentors that told me that at training camp, no matter where you are, they are going to throw you in, and you have to be ready. I just want to be prepared before that happened. Even at pro day, somebody asked me to jump in at center and I was ready to do that. It just all works out and versatility is key."

Lemieux has some familiarity playing other positions. He played both tackles spots at West Valley High School in Yakima, Wash. In college, he practiced at right guard.

"I've been all over," Lemieux said. "I think I don't really have any place where I'm comfortable. I think I'm a natural offensive lineman where I can play any position I'm asked. I think that's just been a lot of work. Obviously, there's techniques and differences between each position. There's set differences if you're a guard, if you're a tackle, if you're at center. I think it's just the more reps, the more comfortable you are at a position. I've taken so many reps over my career, I'm comfortable at any position."

Shane practicing at OC - ( New Window )

In comment 15217559 ryanmkeane said:

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and pick up an extra 2nd rounder, draft Paye or Ojulari, take WR and interior OL in 2nd round with those two picks. sign me up for that if Smith is gone

I agree, that would be ideal, but it's kind of hard to finesse a trade down in that small a window. You would need one of only 4-5 teams to want to move up enough to give up a pick. If they have enough conviction on a guy like Ojulari, they have to be willing to pull the trigger at 11.

In comment 15217653 JonC said:

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No, don't think so.

It's funny how guys create different handles and yet, they are easily seen to be the past account that was riddled with ignorance.

In comment 15217594 bc4life said:

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take a QB

Word from Falcon hqtr is a couple fold...they are not opposed to taking a QB at #4 but haven't heard yet who they are most attached to. Did hear they are listening to offers to drop down with the idea of getting several defensive prospects on Day 1 & 2.

A lot of the media is guessing on them going with Pitts but haven't heard his name specifically yet.

In comment 15217678 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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In comment 15217653 JonC said: Quote: No, don't think so. It's funny how guys create different handles and yet, they are easily seen to be the past account that was riddled with ignorance.

JerseyJoe'd

and an easy choice. As we’ve heard here before, if no WR is available at #11, then a trade down would be preferable. Need a trade partner however. If we trade down then Edge, I think Ojulari or Paye, would be the choice. If we could get an extra 2nd rounder, I think we’ll then see Oline and WR targeted there.

But I still haven't seen you try to explain why Lemieux at OC, Gates at RG is a bad idea? Gates has moved all over our OL just like Diehl has and has ability to play above average to very well at any position save perhaps LT. Most guys who know anyhting about OL say that OC is the position where you can hide slow feet the most. As opposed to Lemieux Gates has very good feet.

tells you he's pretty close to washing off the team, rather than a promotion to OG. C might be his best shot to stick, and even then he's replaceable. Don't overrate your own.

Could he have been miscast before this and Center was always where he belonged?

with the trade down, and then you also run the risk of Paye or Ojulari not being there at 15 or 16...then you are kind of doubly fucked. they would have to be comfortable with 3-4 players at that spot, not just 1 or two

but he was arguably their best OL last year.

If he played that well after a position change, what could he be like staying put for a few years?

In comment 15217705 bc4life said:

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Could he have been miscast before this and Center was always where he belonged?

Going from OT to C is an unusual switch, especially at the NFL level. Can't think of another time it's happened off the top of my head.

In comment 15217698 JonC said:

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tells you he's pretty close to washing off the team, rather than a promotion to OG. C might be his best shot to stick, and even then he's replaceable. Don't overrate your own.

From Zeirlein on Gates, which is kind of what I see with him. I believe his feet are better than you are giving him credit for. And they are certainly better than Lemiuex's.

Good foot quickness
Able to gain necessary ground in his first two kick-slides when he gets out of the blocks on time
Has extremely impressive mirror talent
Seamless ability to change direction without a stall
Catches inside moves and rides them into the line of scrimmage from left tackle spot
Adequate punch timing
Hands are strong and can lock into targets once he lands
Plays with balance as run blocker
Has move blocking ability
Adjusts to second-level movement

NFL.com Gates scouting report - ( New Window )

I believe that Sewell, Chase, and Pitts will be gone.

The Giants should take who ever is left from if they are there:
Smith
Slator
Surtain

A trade down would be appropriate if three QBs are taken and the three players above are taken. I will be upset if Smith and we pass and let the Eagles get him.

It will be interesting to hear any possible leaks on Phillips medicals. To me he stands out as the best edge player in this draft.

In comment 15217708 bc4life said:

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but he was arguably their best OL last year. If he played that well after a position change, what could he be like staying put for a few years?

With his feet and skillset RG might be his best spot.

Lemeiux's best spot might ONLY be OC, his feet are clearly worse than Gates are.

In comment 15217698 JonC said:

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tells you he's pretty close to washing off the team, rather than a promotion to OG. C might be his best shot to stick, and even then he's replaceable. Don't overrate your own.

That's an opinion I haven't seen before. I never considered that Gates going to C was a last resort kind of move. I thought he played really well last year. Couldn't imagine they're anything less than pleased with the results of that experiment.

In comment 15217711 Judge_and_Jury said:

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In comment 15217698 JonC said: Quote: tells you he's pretty close to washing off the team, rather than a promotion to OG. C might be his best shot to stick, and even then he's replaceable. Don't overrate your own. From Zeirlein on Gates, which is kind of what I see with him. I believe his feet are better than you are giving him credit for. And they are certainly better than Lemiuex's. Good foot quickness Able to gain necessary ground in his first two kick-slides when he gets out of the blocks on time Has extremely impressive mirror talent Seamless ability to change direction without a stall Catches inside moves and rides them into the line of scrimmage from left tackle spot Adequate punch timing Hands are strong and can lock into targets once he lands Plays with balance as run blocker Has move blocking ability Adjusts to second-level movement NFL.com Gates scouting report - ( New Window )

I'm going by what I see in the NFL. He's got the right attitude, hopefully he continues to improve. I just wouldn't make any decisions by handing Gates a job. Keep getting better, never stop.

I was expecting a lot longer learning curve from him.

RE: the edge rushers - I think as long as they have reasonable or comparable numbers (40, etc.) then I'd like to look at the first 2-3 seconds of every one of their plays. If they're going to be disruptive you should see it no later than that. and 3 is a bit late

In comment 15217718 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 15217698 JonC said: Quote: tells you he's pretty close to washing off the team, rather than a promotion to OG. C might be his best shot to stick, and even then he's replaceable. Don't overrate your own. That's an opinion I haven't seen before. I never considered that Gates going to C was a last resort kind of move. I thought he played really well last year. Couldn't imagine they're anything less than pleased with the results of that experiment.

Tackles kick inside to guard, but rarely to center. I'm sure they're pleased, but not a player to rest on laurels with.

In comment 15217715 Rick in Dallas said:

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It will be interesting to hear any possible leaks on Phillips medicals. To me he stands out as the best edge player in this draft.

Rick, but arent concussions kind of ambiguous on concussions?

yeah I here you - Don't settle...

Duh....medicals

In comment 15217707 ryanmkeane said:

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with the trade down, and then you also run the risk of Paye or Ojulari not being there at 15 or 16...then you are kind of doubly fucked. they would have to be comfortable with 3-4 players at that spot, not just 1 or two

I think that is a given. I'm less worried that there's not a player a few picks later whom they like than I am a willing trade partner to give fair value.

In comment 15217718 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 15217698 JonC said: Quote: tells you he's pretty close to washing off the team, rather than a promotion to OG. C might be his best shot to stick, and even then he's replaceable. Don't overrate your own. That's an opinion I haven't seen before. I never considered that Gates going to C was a last resort kind of move. I thought he played really well last year. Couldn't imagine they're anything less than pleased with the results of that experiment.

Agreed. He was a VERY pleasant surprise. His mean streak was not misplaced, it was totally focused on the task he was given. The Staff appeared to like his tough, take no prisoners attitude, be it C or anywhere else he was placed. Kind of reminds me of a Seubert or Deihl..I doubt it was perform well at C or bye bye..He is one player I feel secure with on the OL (Thomas seemed to come on nicely)..