How confident are you guys in this being the Giants starting OL entering the upcoming season? It's such a young line, and the only "veteran" in the group is coming off an subpar season and will be making the change from LG to RG.
I know the majority on here wants one of the playmaking WRs in the first round, but I still believe that NFL games are won and lost in the trenches. The OL has been below average for a few years now, and there's still far too many questions marks with the current group. Because of this, I am leaning more and more towards Rashawn Slater being the guy at 11.
Lemieux showed some good and some bad. But it was fairly obvious the coaches were fine with him in there over Hernandez.
Day 2 investment into the OL is a must...
OL should definitely be addressed in the draft, preferably sooner rather than later. It's tough though, since ER and WR are also such big needs.
I'd be totally fine with Slater as the pick if he's there, although I'd prefer getting Smith. What I really hope doesn't happen though is reaching for an ER, which it looks more and more like the Giants are going to do.
Also, who knows, maybe a year off might make Solder at least serviceable. Longshot, but stranger things have happened.
OL should definitely be addressed in the draft, preferably sooner rather than later. It's tough though, since ER and WR are also such big needs.
I'd be totally fine with Slater as the pick if he's there, although I'd prefer getting Smith. What I really hope doesn't happen though is reaching for an ER, which it looks more and more like the Giants are going to do.
Also, who knows, maybe a year off might make Solder at least serviceable. Longshot, but stranger things have happened.
I don't know if Solder makes it out of camp.
Hope one of the top receivers are still there, but if not then Slater would be a stronger pick than any of the edge guys imv...
This quote is ridiculous. I've got the opposite cynical viewpoint if we're speaking about myopathy. Fans look at rookie and 2nd year players of their teams as ascending talents and think it's this inevitable linear progression. Best case, progression is rarely linear, worst case, the players do not work out. If you take the time to really look back at past drafts, not just Giants drafts, you will see that MOST do not work out. For the past decade on this board, we have praised the previous years draft class in year 2, and the shine starts to wear off as this blossoming of young talent never occurs. It happened in pretty substantial ways after 2014 and 2018. It will most definitely happen in some capacity to this class as well. Hell, we have played this game multiple times with this exact unit over the past decade.
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thrown in the middle of the mix and performing like...well, rookies...with no capacity for development and improvement with a coaching staff incapable of coaching/teaching/developing them, and just want to churn in a new guy for more of the same, forever wondering why we never get better, I would bet an amount of figurative dollars that the team itself views things differently and will draft according to their myopic view.
This quote is ridiculous. I've got the opposite cynical viewpoint if we're speaking about myopathy. Fans look at rookie and 2nd year players of their teams as ascending talents and think it's this inevitable linear progression. Best case, progression is rarely linear, worst case, the players do not work out. If you take the time to really look back at past drafts, not just Giants drafts, you will see that MOST do not work out. For the past decade on this board, we have praised the previous years draft class in year 2, and the shine starts to wear off as this blossoming of young talent never occurs. It happened in pretty substantial ways after 2014 and 2018. It will most definitely happen in some capacity to this class as well. Hell, we have played this game multiple times with this exact unit over the past decade.
good post aces...
Slater is a tremendous hedge, wouldn't hate the pick.
I think Thomas is going to be very good. Gates will be better and Peart I thought did well before Covid. Hernandez is in a contract year which sometimes brings a improvement.
They will add a Interior guy in round 2-3 imo. Keep adding competition. I think Judge follows the Patriots model. Find guys in rounds 3-5 with rare 1st round picks. Add to it every year. Don't sign just good OL to second contracts. Let them walk but have a replacement ready.
Lemieux doesn't have OG NFL feet. He is just too slow but has many superlative qualities which translate well to the OC position. Gates on the other hand has very good feet and shows tremendous ability for pulling. In outside Zone which is what we supposedly want to run for Barkley he could be an ideal option for RG.
In this case the only position in serious question is LG. Bring in a draft pick to fight it out with Hernendez.
Lemieux doesn't have OG NFL feet. He is just too slow but has many superlative qualities which translate well to the OC position. Gates on the other hand has very good feet and shows tremendous ability for pulling. In outside Zone which is what we supposedly want to run for Barkley he could be an ideal option for RG.
In this case the only position in serious question is LG. Bring in a draft pick to fight it out with Hernendez.
Line as is. HUMPTY DUMPTY.
Keep ignoring? We have 2 of the top 3 picks last year and a 2nd rounder from 2 years ago in the OL. The OL may not be very good, but if so it is not from lack of attention.
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Younger and more talented. I don’t understand how some of you want to keep ignoring oline. The line was still bad last year and getting rid of Ziegler makes it worse. Drafting Slater if available is the smart move.
Keep ignoring? We have 2 of the top 3 picks last year and a 2nd rounder from 2 years ago in the OL. The OL may not be very good, but if so it is not from lack of attention.
The top pick from last year might not have been the right pick, and that goes for the #3 pick either.
The one thing I’ll say is I will fee much better about the chances of the young guys going in with a year of experience under their belt compared to last year when 4 out of 5 were playing in the nfl for the first time at their position(Gates first time at center plus 3 rooks), that was always going to be a bumpy road.
The one thing I’ll say is I will fee much better about the chances of the young guys going in with a year of experience under their belt compared to last year when 4 out of 5 were playing in the nfl for the first time at their position(Gates first time at center plus 3 rooks), that was always going to be a bumpy road.
Don’t think that just because they are young that they will get better. They might, but if not this will be the 5th year in a row with a LOSING record.
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In comment 15220193 cokeduplt said:
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Younger and more talented. I don’t understand how some of you want to keep ignoring oline. The line was still bad last year and getting rid of Ziegler makes it worse. Drafting Slater if available is the smart move.
Keep ignoring? We have 2 of the top 3 picks last year and a 2nd rounder from 2 years ago in the OL. The OL may not be very good, but if so it is not from lack of attention.
The top pick from last year might not have been the right pick, and that goes for the #3 pick either.
Maybe, maybe not. Hard to tell after a pretty strange first year. But if the problem is they are picking the worng players, it is hard to see how having the same guys pick more is likely to fix the problem.
Have to let the young guys play and see what we have. If we don’t we will be drafting lineman in the first two rounds until eternity.
Agreed. It has to be one hell of a Guard to take one at 11. And taking Slater that high to me is almost giving up on Peart in that regard. To me, roll with what you have, add a Guard in round 2 or 3 and if Peart sucks you have Solder to at least provide veteran experience until you can address the position next offseason.
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About the young tackles, hopefully the interior improves.
The one thing I’ll say is I will fee much better about the chances of the young guys going in with a year of experience under their belt compared to last year when 4 out of 5 were playing in the nfl for the first time at their position(Gates first time at center plus 3 rooks), that was always going to be a bumpy road.
Don’t think that just because they are young that they will get better. They might, but if not this will be the 5th year in a row with a LOSING record.
Understood, still...I prefer them in a situation where they have a year of game experience under their belts than the situation last year. Doing that with one, maybe two guys is one thing...doing it with 4 guys..it was always going to be school of hard knocks when you have that much youth logging time at one unit.
16m
Interesting cha(t) with DL coach today. We were discussing building an OL. This was our big takeaway- More important how good your worst guy is than how great your best guy is. Defenses attack your worst guy every week. You can improve your worst starters with 2nd & 3rd rd picks.
On the other hand, something obviously happened with Hernandez. He was never a pro bowler but I always thought he was a competent starter but he got benched for Lemieux. So I am not confident in Lemieux and the coaching staff is obviously not confident in Hernandez as a starter.
If Waddle or Smith is there, I take them but I do like the idea of Slater bc if Peart works out, he can be a high end guard and if Peart doesnt do well, Slater can play tackle.
I think there are day 2 IOL that will be upgrades over Lemieux and Hernandez.
Slater isn't blocking anybody from developing, that's why he should be in play at 11.
slayton is proven? because he had a good rookie year in a WR friendly offense w the prior coach?
and shep is long for this team after this season?
in a league where WRs matter more now than ever because of all the rule changes?
i'd love slater but don't diminish picking a WR
Slater isn't blocking anybody from developing, that's why he should be in play at 11.
That's a superb argument, the "hole" is the man himself. Sometimes I think I'm looking at a clone from the kid from Syracuse. A small ( if 300 lb can ever be called small) relatively short armed lineman who can't play tackle and isn't big enough or have a strong enough anchor to play inside.
I don't trust my own judgment, but I've read everything about the man and he just doesn't look like a premium player. Serviceable but not premium.
That might be fine, but not when you put it in the context of what's available.
I'm not advocating either of these players, but Parsons has an amazing upside. Same with Smith and Phillips. There's character concerns in the one instance and injuries and potential for injuries, but there's upsides too
... and then there's this: last year and right after the draft it seemed as strange that there was no move for a center in free agency or the draft. I wrote that there had to be an answer on the roster. I think that might be true this year, either that or they've got guys targeted later that will be as good as Slater. A man who didn't play last year and somehow got his stock and reputation to go up.
^^
Yep, and reading it just above. Very easy to criticize 3 years on isn't it? All hindsight is 20/20.
Of course if your players are getting bad coaching from the likes of Hal Hunter then they will not develop. Hernandez did fine his rookie season. Did he get weaker, stupider, lazier in years 2 and 3? Why didn't he maintain that level and/or improve?
I am more than willing to let Judge figure out what he wants on the oline. If he thinks they need Slater or Vera-Tucker I am ok with it. If he decides Smith/Waddle is what they need I am ok with it too. The league has more starting OL in rounds 2-5 than at round 1.
And they gave up 45 sacks.
You think it's good enough?
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Last year including our 1st pick. We have to use our first pick again this year? NO.
And they gave up 45 sacks.
You think it's good enough?
So you think a rookie is going to be better? Only way that number drops is with proper coaching.
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In comment 15221360 Giant John said:
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Last year including our 1st pick. We have to use our first pick again this year? NO.
And they gave up 45 sacks.
You think it's good enough?
So you think a rookie is going to be better? Only way that number drops is with proper coaching.
If the rookie is good enough, sure. There were impact offensive line rookies last year on other teams. There have been impact offensive line rookies every year. Zach Martin, to borrow from Sy's comparison, helped his team immediately.
If the starting 5 are: Thomas-Lemiuex-Gates-Hernandez-Peart, than I'm all in.
After all, how could the Giants not take Tyler Biadasz in 2020?!
A no brainer in the 3rd...right?
If the starting 5 are: Thomas-Lemiuex-Gates-Hernandez-Peart, than I'm all in.
After all, how could the Giants not take Tyler Biadasz in 2020?!
A no brainer in the 3rd...right?
And one of the biggest farces on BBI last year were certain posters taking victory laps when Biadasz made one of his 4 starts. And overall, he was considered poor.
Draftniks have a difficult time separating draft projections from actual play on the field.
If the starting 5 are: Thomas-Lemiuex-Gates-Hernandez-Peart, than I'm all in.
After all, how could the Giants not take Tyler Biadasz in 2020?!
A no brainer in the 3rd...right?
It's interesting. Fans (and media) can only see the team as static and are always reactive. The team, I am one hundred percent sure, sees itself as dynamic, and make decisions accordingly.
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...say that they trust coach on one thread and on another, say that not doing "x" shows he doesn't know what he's doing.
If the starting 5 are: Thomas-Lemiuex-Gates-Hernandez-Peart, than I'm all in.
After all, how could the Giants not take Tyler Biadasz in 2020?!
A no brainer in the 3rd...right?
It's interesting. Fans (and media) can only see the team as static and are always reactive. The team, I am one hundred percent sure, sees itself as dynamic, and make decisions accordingly.
Unless you're Will Hernandez. Even Sy says he regressed, and that was before COVID. Lorenzo Carter also didn't get better from rookie to second year.
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When someone on here told me that Hernandez was going to be just as good if not a better player than Chris Snee. LOL. The shit you read on BBI.
^^
Yep, and reading it just above. Very easy to criticize 3 years on isn't it? All hindsight is 20/20.
So this is the response from the defense when someone actually waits 2-3 years to determine the quality of a draft pick (or draft) before calling him Chris Snee.
All hindsight is 20/20...
...2. Your draft picks from years past must start to contribute. Peart needs to play until he proves he isn't ready at this point. Even though he was a 3rd round pick he needs to be out there. Kareem McKenzie was a 3rd round pick and became a steady contributor. Peart could also, he needs to prove he can play.
McKenzie seems like a high bar. He was the 79th pick (Peart was 99th), and his career was far toward the high end of expectations for any third-rounder. You're right that Peart will never be Kareem McKenzie if he doesn't play, but every player has to earn his way onto the field. That's especially true at a position like offensive tackle, where a mistake can cost the team its quarterback.
FWIW, Peart played much more as a rookie than McKenzie did with the Jets, despite the COVID disruption.
Giants gave up the third most sacks last year and had no major injuries on the OL.. the only injury or time-off was covid related for hernandez who sucked before he ever had covid.. May be you can count Solder but he isn't even a starter this year.. At this stage I won't be surprised if we actually more in OL because its a need..
People already forgot the first 2 games when Barkley was getting hit 2 yards behind the LoS all the time..
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and relegating a proven NFL starting WR like Slayton is more palatable than drafting an OL that would relegate a near unknown like Lemiuex to the bench makes more sense? It's not even close if we're comparing the production of our last two 5th round picks.
Slater isn't blocking anybody from developing, that's why he should be in play at 11.
slayton is proven? because he had a good rookie year in a WR friendly offense w the prior coach?
and shep is long for this team after this season?
in a league where WRs matter more now than ever because of all the rule changes?
i'd love slater but don't diminish picking a WR
I'm not diminishing picking WR, I think the Giants need to come out of this draft with one, whether that be in the 1st or 6th round.
Look at the context of the argument. I was replying to a poster saying we needed to "let the young guys play" and said WR should be in play over OL for that reason. Why is Lemieux a guy that we have to let play while its ok to bury Slayton? Both picked in back to back 5th rounds and yes, Slayton has proven he belongs in the NFL while Lemiuex is up in the air. That was my point. I don't have a problem upgrading Slayton.
Giants gave up the third most sacks last year and had no major injuries on the OL.. the only injury or time-off was covid related for hernandez who sucked before he ever had covid.. May be you can count Solder but he isn't even a starter this year.. At this stage I won't be surprised if we actually more in OL because its a need..
People already forgot the first 2 games when Barkley was getting hit 2 yards behind the LoS all the time..
Or remembering the last many games when a pedestrian replacement got chunks?
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Zietler, who was either the best or second best OL, left.. Hernandez is playing a different position.. There is a chance that the young players grow into better players but you can't simply assume that..
Giants gave up the third most sacks last year and had no major injuries on the OL.. the only injury or time-off was covid related for hernandez who sucked before he ever had covid.. May be you can count Solder but he isn't even a starter this year.. At this stage I won't be surprised if we actually more in OL because its a need..
People already forgot the first 2 games when Barkley was getting hit 2 yards behind the LoS all the time..
Or remembering the last many games when a pedestrian replacement got chunks?
Yes I forgot those chunk yards last year in the last 4 games.. 3 of them we couldn't even get to 80 yards..
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In comment 15221421 chuckydee9 said:
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Zietler, who was either the best or second best OL, left.. Hernandez is playing a different position.. There is a chance that the young players grow into better players but you can't simply assume that..
Giants gave up the third most sacks last year and had no major injuries on the OL.. the only injury or time-off was covid related for hernandez who sucked before he ever had covid.. May be you can count Solder but he isn't even a starter this year.. At this stage I won't be surprised if we actually more in OL because its a need..
People already forgot the first 2 games when Barkley was getting hit 2 yards behind the LoS all the time..
Or remembering the last many games when a pedestrian replacement got chunks?
Yes I forgot those chunk yards last year in the last 4 games.. 3 of them we couldn't even get to 80 yards..
Gallman's last 5 games his average/carry was: 8.4,4.8,3.2,4.5,5.9.
Or remembering the last many games when a pedestrian replacement got chunks?
Yes I forgot those chunk yards last year in the last 4 games.. 3 of them we couldn't even get to 80 yards..
Gallman's last 5 games his average/carry was: 8.4,4.8,3.2,4.5,5.9.
Some of you may have been watching a different Offensive Line than what was on the field.
With the NFCE title in site with a few games left, the Giants OL did a poor job of producing much at all, particularly in the running game.
The last four games the Giants ran for 78, 74, 54 and 125 yards. You can calculate that average yourself but it won't look very good...
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In comment 15221431 Bill L said:
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In comment 15221421 chuckydee9 said:
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Zietler, who was either the best or second best OL, left.. Hernandez is playing a different position.. There is a chance that the young players grow into better players but you can't simply assume that..
Giants gave up the third most sacks last year and had no major injuries on the OL.. the only injury or time-off was covid related for hernandez who sucked before he ever had covid.. May be you can count Solder but he isn't even a starter this year.. At this stage I won't be surprised if we actually more in OL because its a need..
People already forgot the first 2 games when Barkley was getting hit 2 yards behind the LoS all the time..
Or remembering the last many games when a pedestrian replacement got chunks?
Yes I forgot those chunk yards last year in the last 4 games.. 3 of them we couldn't even get to 80 yards..
Gallman's last 5 games his average/carry was: 8.4,4.8,3.2,4.5,5.9.
May be you are impreseed by those numbers.. but I am not.. I am sure the Giants are not happy with 78,74, 54 and 125 as rushing outputs. regardless of YPC.. Overall no one has 700 yards and DJ had the 2nd most rushing yards.. Stop pretending that one obscure stat shows that we had good run blocking.. we didn't..
Most of those games were helped massively by DJ running.. but adequate is the best I would describe it so you are right..
I was upset with the coaching staff for not leaning on the run game vs. AZ and CLE after the success they were having AND having issues at QB.
Even in those games, the run was working but we did not want to use it. Pass pro - this OL has a lot of work to do. But I am not worried about the run blocking whatsoever.