Personally, I feel as if Kwity Paye and Gregory Rousseau are more suited for a traditional 4-3 DE role. I know Paye in particular is quite athletic with the potential to fit in any type of scheme, but I think it's notable that his interior pass rush is considered better than his outside pass rush. Rousseau is a guy that I just don't think has the agility to play in space. Jayson Oweh is a freak athlete but is super raw and hard to compare.
So because of that, I feel like Ojulari and Phillips are the top prospects in terms of filling the traditional 3-4 OLB outside pass rusher role. I know Judge wants the defense to be multiple and is from the Patriots' school of defense where a stud Edge pass rusher isn't a necessity, but there are a lot of signs suggesting the Giants want to add a guy who fits that type of skillset to their defense.
We've all heard the Leonard Floyd rumor, a pure speed player off the edge who doesn't fit the classic Pats' profile. Some here used the Floyd rumor to connect the dots and assume that Azeez Ojulari would interest the Giants due to the similar background, which was confirmed by the heavy Giants presence at the Georgia Pro Day. There was also a heavy Giants presence at the Miami Pro Day, where Phillips outclassed Rousseau and put on a show by all accounts.
Pro Day Results
Jaelan Phillips --- 6'5" -- 260 lbs -- 4.56 40yd -- 21 Bench -- 36" Vert -- 10'5" Broad -- 33.25" Arms -- 4.13 SS -- 7.01 3-Cone
Azeez Ojulari ---- 6'2" -- 249 lbs -- 4.60 40yd -- 26 Bench -- 30" Vert -- 10'7" Broad -- 34.38" Arms -- 7.27 3-Cone
2020 Season Stats
Jaelan Phillips --- 10 G -- 45 Tackles -- 8.0 Sacks -- 15.5 TFL -- 1 INT -- 3 PD
Azeez Ojulari ---- 10 G -- 31 Tackles -- 9.5 Sacks -- 12.5 TFL -- 4 FF --- 2 PD
Phillips has the superior size/speed combination and seems to have better bend when coming around the edge. Ojulari has a very impressive length/1st step combination, and seems to do a better job of utilizing that length. Both guys seem to have a good repertoire of moves and both guys also seem to have the quickness to play in space.
Our own Sy'56 gave them the same grade (84), although he gave the slight edge to Ojulari due to less questions about his medical history/personality(?). But it does seem like he believes Phillips has a higher ceiling.
So my question is simply, out of these 2 players, which one would you rather draft?
Good production in the SEC
High Football Character
Explosive Athlete
Good Measurables (especially arm length)
No significant injury history
He almost quit the game bc of it. That's his right, of course, but that's a huge red flag to me.
Ojulari is a lot cleaner. One injury in high school (knee ACL), but healthy ever since. Team captain (since freshman year). Very productive. I think people didn’t love his vertical and 3-cone and that took the luster off. However, he is one of the youngest players in the draft and produced in the SEC.
My preference is neither at 11. Receiver if available (waddle or smith). Someone like Joseph Ossai in the 2nd who also has a ton of intangibles, produced (1st team all American), had a freaky Pro day (1.58 10 yard split, 41 inch vertical) and is still young and learning the edge position. Or Payton Turner, although he may go higher now.
1 Kwity Paye 6'3" 260 Michigan Michigan didn't use him in a way that optimized his draft rankings, but make no mistake, this a versatile, "high floor" player who will play in several Pro Bowls. Player Comp: Justin Tuck
2 Azeez Ojulari 6’2-249 Georgia Quick twitched athlete. Great "get off". Probably needs to get stronger to hold the point of attack, but is a good pass rushing prospect Day 1. Like Paye, he's a top notch kid character wise. Player Comp: Umenyiora
3 Joseph Ossai 6’3-242 Texas While he is more of an outside guy than Darius Leonard (and bigger), he has that kind of elite motor. He's also high end athletically. If he somehow slips into RD2, he's a major steal. Player Comp: Shaq Barrett
4 Joe Tryon 6’6-262 U of Wash Somewhat raw but terrific athlete who plays 100 MPH. Opted out in 2020. Motor and measurables are top notch. Fairly productive too. Player Comp: Montez Sweat
5 Elerson Smith 6’7-255 Northern Iowa Flying under the radar. Really good athlete. Productive in his college career and looked the part at Senior Bowl week. RD2 is not too high for him. Player Comp: Maxx Crosby
6 Carlos Basham 6’3-285 Wake Forest Versatile lineman who seems to prefer the inside rather than edge. But he can do both. Dependable guy who almost certainly will be productive but never elite. Player Comp: Carlos Dunlap
7 Gregory Rousseau 6’7-265 Miami The dictionary definition of a futures bet. His length is elite. Coordinated athlete. I worry about how raw he is and how high he plays. Player Comp: Mattias Kiwinuka
8 Jaelen Phillips 6’6-260 Miami Another high risk, high reward bet from the U. Phillips is the best pure talent of anyone on this list. He could be a Pro Bowler early in his career. He also could retire early (extensive injury history). I wouldn't touch him. Let someone else take the risk. Player Comp: Olivier Vernon
9 Jayson Oweh 6’5-265 Penn State Pound for pound, might be the best athlete in the draft. Plays hard enough. But plays high, so his speed to power conversion is subpar. Desperately needs good coaching. Still, I think he'll always be a tease of a player. Player Comp: Clowney
10 Rashad Weaver 6’6-255 Pitt Low ceiling, high floor. Does everything right. Assignment diligent. Very skilled in technique. Just not a ton of juice athletically. Player Comp: Romeo Okwara
He almost quit the game bc of it. That's his right, of course, but that's a huge red flag to me.
The medical question with Phillips is a big one if you place more value on less talented players.
His ticker will keep on ticking for atleast 4-5 more years. After that, the money will keep him warm at night, as it does will all football players.
Good production in the SEC
High Football Character
Explosive Athlete
Good Measurables (especially arm length)
No significant injury history
I agree. Especially if he can actually cover a little bit like has been suggested.
Sounds a little like a Bulldog already on the team.
Link - ( New Window )
I don't like Ojulari, he doesn't pop on film to me and disappears for stretches. UGA LBs in general haven't impressed me besides Roquan. I suspect his game won't translate to a really good NFL OLB, we can do better. I'd prefer Phillips (if he's medically sound) or pick Paye and take my chances with his potential and work ethic.
He almost quit the game bc of it. That's his right, of course, but that's a huge red flag to me.
It's hard to blast the guy. He was in a very significant accident and had a long road to recovery. I can't imagine what his headspace was like, especially playing a sport as brutal as football.
I don't like Ojulari, he doesn't pop on film to me and disappears for stretches. UGA LBs in general haven't impressed me besides Roquan. I suspect his game won't translate to a really good NFL OLB, we can do better. I'd prefer Phillips (if he's medically sound) or pick Paye and take my chances with his potential and work ethic.
i agree with this. i think Ojulari is similar to Carter
I don't like Ojulari, he doesn't pop on film to me and disappears for stretches. UGA LBs in general haven't impressed me besides Roquan. I suspect his game won't translate to a really good NFL OLB, we can do better. I'd prefer Phillips (if he's medically sound) or pick Paye and take my chances with his potential and work ethic.
Everything Ive heard is that Paye has incredible athleticism, is his work ethic a positive? Because if so, I think you can get the most out of a player like that.
How so?
Well, that's not so much of a concern because it sounds like one more hit to the helmet and he will have a different one.
Daniel Kelly says Payenot even a 1st round talent? - ( New Window )
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If they're confident in Phillips' concussion history not being a red flag, he's easily the pick. You can build around his skill set and deploy him from both fronts as the rusher.
I don't like Ojulari, he doesn't pop on film to me and disappears for stretches. UGA LBs in general haven't impressed me besides Roquan. I suspect his game won't translate to a really good NFL OLB, we can do better. I'd prefer Phillips (if he's medically sound) or pick Paye and take my chances with his potential and work ethic.
Everything Ive heard is that Paye has incredible athleticism, is his work ethic a positive? Because if so, I think you can get the most out of a player like that.
Reports are top notch work ethic, very coachable, strong character.
The concept of being multiple seems to get lost sometimes. Someone like Paye can handle some short-area LB in an odd front, and play DE in both odd and even fronts, along with some 3T in an even front - that makes him multiple. Coupled with his insane 3-cone number, he's a very intriguing fit for Graham's defense.
Ojulari is actually less versatile than Paye, in my opinion. He's a legit edge guy, but where do you play him when we line up in an even front? Is he putting his hand in the ground or standing up? I'd assume he's more likely to do the former than the latter in that scenario, but I think he loses some value if asked to do so.
Phillips, I think, can provide a lot of the same versatility that Paye can, along with some added explosiveness, but comes with his own flags that may or may not be insurmountable.
[bThe concept of being multiple seems to get lost sometimes. Someone like Paye can handle some short-area LB in an odd front, and play DE in both odd and even fronts, along with some 3T in an even front - that makes him multiple. Coupled with his insane 3-cone number, he's a very intriguing fit for Graham's defense.[/b]
Ojulari is actually less versatile than Paye, in my opinion. He's a legit edge guy, but where do you play him when we line up in an even front? Is he putting his hand in the ground or standing up? I'd assume he's more likely to do the former than the latter in that scenario, but I think he loses some value if asked to do so.
Phillips, I think, can provide a lot of the same versatility that Paye can, along with some added explosiveness, but comes with his own flags that may or may not be insurmountable.
This is what intrigues me about the guy. He has so much athleticism and ability to play multiple positions that it could really extend what we do along the D line. Think of a 3rd down alignment of him and LW at the ends and DL in the middle. Thats a group that could collapse a pocket using only 3. Also like that he is quick enough to cover a patch of grass if need be.
Ojulari only appeals to me if he can play OLB had an effective level. If he is very below avg in coverage, Paye is the more attractive prospect playing next to our other guys
Good production in the SEC
High Football Character
Explosive Athlete
Good Measurables (especially arm length)
No significant injury history
30” vertical is pretty terrible and not indicative of a exclusive athlete
Strahan and Osi were 2nd round picks. Tuck was a 3rd.
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Ojulari
Good production in the SEC
High Football Character
Explosive Athlete
Good Measurables (especially arm length)
No significant injury history
30” vertical is pretty terrible and not indicative of a exclusive athlete
Noticed that too. Im not crazy about Ojulari. I would love him if he could cover, but I have only heard it hinted "he can cover a bit." Fuck that show me! Theres really no tape of him covering an area effectively.
Paye has pretty elite athleticism and if he is a worker, there is certainly technique he can learn to become a finisher. Incredible strength, speed, quickness, explosion out of his stance, there is a lot to work with there. It sounds to me theonly knock on him is he isnt very bendy. If he is getting into the backfield, that is already a good sign
Not according to JuanCito
Yea I am liking more and more of what I see from him. Pass rush CAN be taught when you have measurables and work ethic. Day one he is an absolute savage in stopping the run. I also have to believe that his ability to read the read options that have become so prevalent in QBs. We have gotten killed there over the years. This guy just looks like he could me coached into a monster.
Mentions coachability and if he runs sub 7 3 cone
Mentions coachability and if he runs sub 7 3 cone
Wasn't his 3-cone sub 6.5?
The concept of being multiple seems to get lost sometimes. Someone like Paye can handle some short-area LB in an odd front, and play DE in both odd and even fronts, along with some 3T in an even front - that makes him multiple. Coupled with his insane 3-cone number, he's a very intriguing fit for Graham's defense.
Ojulari is actually less versatile than Paye, in my opinion. He's a legit edge guy, but where do you play him when we line up in an even front? Is he putting his hand in the ground or standing up? I'd assume he's more likely to do the former than the latter in that scenario, but I think he loses some value if asked to do so.
Phillips, I think, can provide a lot of the same versatility that Paye can, along with some added explosiveness, but comes with his own flags that may or may not be insurmountable.
I mentioned in my OP that Judge/Graham like to have a multiple defense and that Paye was versatile. But I also mentioned the Giants' interest in Floyd suggests they are also intrigued by the idea of adding a traditional pass rusher at the 3-4 OLB spot.
Paye is very interesting and is an awesome talent. I wouldn't mind him at all. But I think there's a lot of projection with him when it comes to pass rushing from the edge. He's not as polished a pass rusher as either Phillips or Ojulari, who seem to be more natural 3-4 OLB types.
Paye is kind of in his own group. I don't really consider him a 3-4 OLB. He does things that Phillips/Ojulari can't do, like moving inside in a 4-3. But I think Phillips and Ojulari have more potential in terms of pass rushing, which is why I wanted to compare them.
I'm not surprised most seem to prefer Ojulari due to the red flags with Phillips. I personally prefer Phillips even with the risks. He has everything you'd want in an Edge player, except for the health track record. If the Giants medical staff is comfortable with his history, I'd be all for drafting him.
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We're not a traditional 3-4 defense.
The concept of being multiple seems to get lost sometimes. Someone like Paye can handle some short-area LB in an odd front, and play DE in both odd and even fronts, along with some 3T in an even front - that makes him multiple. Coupled with his insane 3-cone number, he's a very intriguing fit for Graham's defense.
Ojulari is actually less versatile than Paye, in my opinion. He's a legit edge guy, but where do you play him when we line up in an even front? Is he putting his hand in the ground or standing up? I'd assume he's more likely to do the former than the latter in that scenario, but I think he loses some value if asked to do so.
Phillips, I think, can provide a lot of the same versatility that Paye can, along with some added explosiveness, but comes with his own flags that may or may not be insurmountable.
I mentioned in my OP that Judge/Graham like to have a multiple defense and that Paye was versatile. But I also mentioned the Giants' interest in Floyd suggests they are also intrigued by the idea of adding a traditional pass rusher at the 3-4 OLB spot.
Paye is very interesting and is an awesome talent. I wouldn't mind him at all. But I think there's a lot of projection with him when it comes to pass rushing from the edge. He's not as polished a pass rusher as either Phillips or Ojulari, who seem to be more natural 3-4 OLB types.
Paye is kind of in his own group. I don't really consider him a 3-4 OLB. He does things that Phillips/Ojulari can't do, like moving inside in a 4-3. But I think Phillips and Ojulari have more potential in terms of pass rushing, which is why I wanted to compare them.
I'm not surprised most seem to prefer Ojulari due to the red flags with Phillips. I personally prefer Phillips even with the risks. He has everything you'd want in an Edge player, except for the health track record. If the Giants medical staff is comfortable with his history, I'd be all for drafting him.
Having everything you want, except health, is a little bit like buying a house that has everything you want, except oxygen.
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I like this one better
Mentions coachability and if he runs sub 7 3 cone
Wasn't his 3-cone sub 6.5?
I thought it was AT 6.52....which is still incredible for his size. I couldnt find the actual number but am still looking.
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In comment 15220614 chopperhatch said:
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I like this one better
Mentions coachability and if he runs sub 7 3 cone
Wasn't his 3-cone sub 6.5?
I thought it was AT 6.52....which is still incredible for his size. I couldnt find the actual number but am still looking.
Paye did not run the 3 cone....which is disappointing.
Height: 6-2
Weight: 261
Hand: 10 inches
Wing: 78½ inches
Arm Length: 33 inches
40-Yard Dash: 4.52 seconds
Vertical Jump: 35½ inches
Broad Jump: 9-10
3-Cone Drill: DNP
Pro Agility: DNP
60-Yard Shuttle: DNP
Bench: 36 reps
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In comment 15220455 Gatorade Dunk said:
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We're not a traditional 3-4 defense.
The concept of being multiple seems to get lost sometimes. Someone like Paye can handle some short-area LB in an odd front, and play DE in both odd and even fronts, along with some 3T in an even front - that makes him multiple. Coupled with his insane 3-cone number, he's a very intriguing fit for Graham's defense.
Ojulari is actually less versatile than Paye, in my opinion. He's a legit edge guy, but where do you play him when we line up in an even front? Is he putting his hand in the ground or standing up? I'd assume he's more likely to do the former than the latter in that scenario, but I think he loses some value if asked to do so.
Phillips, I think, can provide a lot of the same versatility that Paye can, along with some added explosiveness, but comes with his own flags that may or may not be insurmountable.
I mentioned in my OP that Judge/Graham like to have a multiple defense and that Paye was versatile. But I also mentioned the Giants' interest in Floyd suggests they are also intrigued by the idea of adding a traditional pass rusher at the 3-4 OLB spot.
Paye is very interesting and is an awesome talent. I wouldn't mind him at all. But I think there's a lot of projection with him when it comes to pass rushing from the edge. He's not as polished a pass rusher as either Phillips or Ojulari, who seem to be more natural 3-4 OLB types.
Paye is kind of in his own group. I don't really consider him a 3-4 OLB. He does things that Phillips/Ojulari can't do, like moving inside in a 4-3. But I think Phillips and Ojulari have more potential in terms of pass rushing, which is why I wanted to compare them.
I'm not surprised most seem to prefer Ojulari due to the red flags with Phillips. I personally prefer Phillips even with the risks. He has everything you'd want in an Edge player, except for the health track record. If the Giants medical staff is comfortable with his history, I'd be all for drafting him.
Having everything you want, except health, is a little bit like buying a house that has everything you want, except oxygen.
He was healthy enough to dominate at the college level last year. It's obviously a huge question mark and one that could keep him off of the team's 1st round big board. But if he the Giants medical staff is ok with it, I'll have to trust them. It's all about risk/reward, he may be very risky due to the medical track record but the potential reward is an elite player.
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In comment 15220629 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15220614 chopperhatch said:
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I like this one better
Mentions coachability and if he runs sub 7 3 cone
Wasn't his 3-cone sub 6.5?
I thought it was AT 6.52....which is still incredible for his size. I couldnt find the actual number but am still looking.
Paye did not run the 3 cone....which is disappointing.
Here you go - you have to time it yourself, but he's definitely sub-7, considerably under.
Link - ( New Window )
Tweet vid of Paye running 3 cone - ( New Window )
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In comment 15220672 chopperhatch said:
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In comment 15220629 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15220614 chopperhatch said:
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I like this one better
Mentions coachability and if he runs sub 7 3 cone
Wasn't his 3-cone sub 6.5?
I thought it was AT 6.52....which is still incredible for his size. I couldnt find the actual number but am still looking.
Paye did not run the 3 cone....which is disappointing.
Here you go - you have to time it yourself, but he's definitely sub-7, considerably under. Link - ( New Window )
I got almost 8 with that....what am I doing wrong? Im going on first movememt
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In comment 15220683 chopperhatch said:
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In comment 15220672 chopperhatch said:
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In comment 15220629 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15220614 chopperhatch said:
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I like this one better
Mentions coachability and if he runs sub 7 3 cone
Wasn't his 3-cone sub 6.5?
I thought it was AT 6.52....which is still incredible for his size. I couldnt find the actual number but am still looking.
Paye did not run the 3 cone....which is disappointing.
Here you go - you have to time it yourself, but he's definitely sub-7, considerably under. Link - ( New Window )
I got almost 8 with that....what am I doing wrong? Im going on first movememt
Either I have a wishful trigger, or yours is slow, but I got 6.87.
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In comment 15220703 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15220683 chopperhatch said:
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In comment 15220672 chopperhatch said:
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In comment 15220629 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15220614 chopperhatch said:
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I like this one better
Mentions coachability and if he runs sub 7 3 cone
Wasn't his 3-cone sub 6.5?
I thought it was AT 6.52....which is still incredible for his size. I couldnt find the actual number but am still looking.
Paye did not run the 3 cone....which is disappointing.
Here you go - you have to time it yourself, but he's definitely sub-7, considerably under. Link - ( New Window )
I got almost 8 with that....what am I doing wrong? Im going on first movememt
Either I have a wishful trigger, or yours is slow, but I got 6.87.
I def didnt get sub 7. But if I was legit doing something wrong, these are the players he is to be compared to:
Chandler Jones, 7.07 seconds
Khalil Mack, 7.08 seconds
Von Miller, 6.70 seconds
Ryan Kerrigan, 7.18 seconds
Cameron Jordan, 7.07 seconds
Aaron Donald, 7.11 seconds
Melvin Ingram, 6.83 seconds
Cameron Wake, 7.12 seconds
Ezekiel Ansah, 7.11 seconds
Calais Campbell, 7.45 seconds
Vic Beasley, 6.91 seconds
Demarcus Lawrence, 7.46 seconds
Joey Bosa, 6.89 seconds
Olivier Vernon, 7.39 seconds
Frank Clark, 7.08 seconds
Cliff Avril, 6.90 seconds
Fletcher Cox, 7.07 seconds
Gerald McCoy, 7.32 seconds
Nick Perry, 7.25 seconds
Justin Houston, 6.95 seconds
Derrick Morgan, 7.12 seconds
I don't know how you could get almost 8 seconds on it unless you're starting on him twitching his fingers before he goes.
Either way, stopwatch aside, he's a really fluid athlete for a man of his size. I wish he were a couple of inches taller, but if the Giants are hellbent on adding an edge in the first round this year, he's the guy I'd want for Graham's defense.
I don't know how you could get almost 8 seconds on it unless you're starting on him twitching his fingers before he goes.
Either way, stopwatch aside, he's a really fluid athlete for a man of his size. I wish he were a couple of inches taller, but if the Giants are hellbent on adding an edge in the first round this year, he's the guy I'd want for Graham's defense.
Lol, no I wasnt. I must doing something wrong. I have been elongating the "one thousands" too and still getting over 7.
I agree he is a very fluid athlete and he looks quick in games. But the 7 second 3 cone is kind of an indicator for pass rushers and I got him at 7.5.
that being said i think all 4 are major reaches at 11 and one of
pitts, smith, waddle, chase, slater should be there and provide MUCH more value IMO
I mean, that's not necessarily true. A lot of top prospects opt out of exactly the drills that you'd expect them to be best at. Eli didn't even throw at the combine (IIRC, he did nothing other than the 40) - was it because he had a weak arm, or because he didn't need to?
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If could run sub 7 he would have ran at his pro day.
I mean, that's not necessarily true. A lot of top prospects opt out of exactly the drills that you'd expect them to be best at. Eli didn't even throw at the combine (IIRC, he did nothing other than the 40) - was it because he had a weak arm, or because he didn't need to?
No offense but thats a bad example. Eli was the consensus 1...a1...all he could do would be to hurt his cause. Devonta Smith is a similar case. He cant help his draft position at all. He is going between 6 and 13 without question. If he ran a weak 40, it could only hurt.
There has been talk of Paye not even being a 1st rounder. I dont know why people are taking that 3 cone seriously, but everything else Paye did he lit up. If he goes into the draft with people believing he ran sub 7, he is helping his cause. If he runs a 7.5 3 cone he is late 1st most likely.
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In comment 15220748 Thegratefulhead said:
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If could run sub 7 he would have ran at his pro day.
I mean, that's not necessarily true. A lot of top prospects opt out of exactly the drills that you'd expect them to be best at. Eli didn't even throw at the combine (IIRC, he did nothing other than the 40) - was it because he had a weak arm, or because he didn't need to?
No offense but thats a bad example. Eli was the consensus 1...a1...all he could do would be to hurt his cause. Devonta Smith is a similar case. He cant help his draft position at all. He is going between 6 and 13 without question. If he ran a weak 40, it could only hurt.
There has been talk of Paye not even being a 1st rounder. I dont know why people are taking that 3 cone seriously, but everything else Paye did he lit up. If he goes into the draft with people believing he ran sub 7, he is helping his cause. If he runs a 7.5 3 cone he is late 1st most likely.
Just use the timestamps on the video - as long as you don't think the video itself was doctored, he's sub 7.
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In comment 15220770 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15220748 Thegratefulhead said:
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If could run sub 7 he would have ran at his pro day.
I mean, that's not necessarily true. A lot of top prospects opt out of exactly the drills that you'd expect them to be best at. Eli didn't even throw at the combine (IIRC, he did nothing other than the 40) - was it because he had a weak arm, or because he didn't need to?
No offense but thats a bad example. Eli was the consensus 1...a1...all he could do would be to hurt his cause. Devonta Smith is a similar case. He cant help his draft position at all. He is going between 6 and 13 without question. If he ran a weak 40, it could only hurt.
There has been talk of Paye not even being a 1st rounder. I dont know why people are taking that 3 cone seriously, but everything else Paye did he lit up. If he goes into the draft with people believing he ran sub 7, he is helping his cause. If he runs a 7.5 3 cone he is late 1st most likely.
Just use the timestamps on the video - as long as you don't think the video itself was doctored, he's sub 7.
Well then he is quicker than Vonn Miller and he absolutely should be the pick at 11
I would argue that the one trade-off with Graham's scheme (there are always trade-offs, otherwise everyone would use the same schemes) is that it does seem to prioritize setting the edge, rather than collapsing it.
We all have fond memories of LT coming around the corner like his hair is on fire, or more recently seeing Osi, Tuck, and Strahan rush the passer from the 7 and 9 slots, but I think Graham's scheme really does rely upon edge defenders that can stay home and hold their ground when the playcall dictates that. Not every edge defender can handle that responsibility, and it's not the sort of highlight-friendly task that we're ever going to see without all-22 tape. But I'm inclined to believe that bigger edge guys are more equipped to do it than the lithe, lanky speed rushers.
I'd even go so far as to say that I could see PG standing someone like Ta'Quon Graham up in space in certain situations more than I can see him trying to make an undersized speed rusher work as an edge-setter.
Pretty much how I feel. I feel like Phillips checks all those boxes when it comes to play on the field. But the concussions are obviously a huge negative. I still think we should heavily consider him if our medical team/front office is ok with it. The potential Giants/Pats trade that's been talked which gives the Giants the 15th pick would make the Edge guys all more attractive.
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But more than anything we need juice off the Edge, outside pressure. We have guys that can get push up the middle on the line and we have guys in the back 7 that are capable of blitzing the interior gaps from the second level. We need that pressure off the edge. We need that guy that forces the QB to step into Leonard Williams and Dexter Lawrence. Ojulari is my preference over Paye because of that but even his lack of bend is a little concerning there and has me hesitant to jump on board with him at 11. I don't see how you can gamble on Phillips in the top half of the 1st round, concussions are no joke and he could easily be out of football in 2 years. Given what we actually need from an Edge presence and what is available, the sweet spot is the back half of the first or top half of the 2nd. Even if it's a complete dice roll like Oweh or Phillips, grabbing that upside outside pressure guy in that portion of the draft would be ideal if we're deadset on hitting that need. I wouldn't be opposed to doubling up with a different Edge skillset later on too but we need that upside outside pressure guy.
Pretty much how I feel. I feel like Phillips checks all those boxes when it comes to play on the field. But the concussions are obviously a huge negative. I still think we should heavily consider him if our medical team/front office is ok with it. The potential Giants/Pats trade that's been talked which gives the Giants the 15th pick would make the Edge guys all more attractive.
One hundred percent. Paye or Ojulari at 15 with an extra 2nd (either off the bat or by giving up our 4th/5th) would be awesome. AWESOME.
I tend to like both, especially Paye, but at 15 they are both much more justified picks. Maybe we can even trade down a 2nd time and grab Oweh/Ojulari/Paye/Tryon and have more picks. Because that is what should fit our line of thinking. Sure we spent money in FA, but getting an EDGE, interior OL and a WR in this draft should be a priority. If we can add picks to that, it sets our future up nicely.
Phillips #11
Oweh #16
Rousseau #22
Ojulari #32
Basham #33
Paye #34
Tyron #39
I’m not debating players and where they are ranked. All I’m saying is the VALUE of an edge at #11 is not there. You could get the same type of player in mid to late 20’s. Take an Edge after one or two big moves down I’m ok with. Take WR at #11 there is value. Take one of 2 tackles if there at #11 ok. If you want a tackle there’s 5-6 with later round values grouped together so if not the top 2 get out of the spot. The only value at 11 is 2 Tackles, WR or Parsons (if they like ).
I don't like Ojulari, he doesn't pop on film to me and disappears for stretches. UGA LBs in general haven't impressed me besides Roquan. I suspect his game won't translate to a really good NFL OLB, we can do better. I'd prefer Phillips (if he's medically sound) or pick Paye and take my chances with his potential and work ethic.
i agree. JUST DRAFT WR or OL. rather than force a pick draft into the strength of this draft at positions of need WR and OL
I just used my digital stop watch and got 6.55 twice
Phillips #11
Oweh #16
Rousseau #22
Ojulari #32
Basham #33
Paye #34
Tyron #39
I’m not debating players and where they are ranked. All I’m saying is the VALUE of an edge at #11 is not there. You could get the same type of player in mid to late 20’s. Take an Edge after one or two big moves down I’m ok with. Take WR at #11 there is value. Take one of 2 tackles if there at #11 ok. If you want a tackle there’s 5-6 with later round values grouped together so if not the top 2 get out of the spot. The only value at 11 is 2 Tackles, WR or Parsons (if they like ).
Absolutely. It seems like nearly everyone here is a need based picker. BPA is only lip service. So, if we pick by need, just trade down and pick from a plethora of like players and collect some extra picks. There’s value in a WR at #11 because those are unique players and true bpa. But, there’s also value, if you’re wedded to need, in picking an edge or OL guy along with multiple additional picks.
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He starts running shortly after :05 and the video is :12, so 6.5ish might be the case. If so, given how good he is against the run already, that is an awful lot to work with
I just used my digital stop watch and got 6.55 twice
Like I said,if thats thecase he is quicker than Vonn Miller, is already by far the best against the run in the draft and that warrants an 11th pick. If thats the case, I would want him over all the others.Athleticism, instincts,work ethic, coachability.
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Since he has been good.
Phillips #11
Oweh #16
Rousseau #22
Ojulari #32
Basham #33
Paye #34
Tyron #39
I’m not debating players and where they are ranked. All I’m saying is the VALUE of an edge at #11 is not there. You could get the same type of player in mid to late 20’s. Take an Edge after one or two big moves down I’m ok with. Take WR at #11 there is value. Take one of 2 tackles if there at #11 ok. If you want a tackle there’s 5-6 with later round values grouped together so if not the top 2 get out of the spot. The only value at 11 is 2 Tackles, WR or Parsons (if they like ).
Absolutely. It seems like nearly everyone here is a need based picker. BPA is only lip service. So, if we pick by need, just trade down and pick from a plethora of like players and collect some extra picks. There’s value in a WR at #11 because those are unique players and true bpa. But, there’s also value, if you’re wedded to need, in picking an edge or OL guy along with multiple additional picks.
If Paye did a 6.5 3 cone in addition to a 4.6 40, 36 inch vert and 36 reps at bench, he is in a class with Philips as far as measurables and needs to be considered at 11
If Paye legitimately thought he could run a sub 6.5 3-cone or beat Von Miller’s time, either his agents or his coaches are dumb for not letting him prove it. The rumors all suggest he has that potential but the coaches/agent clearly felt it was better to have the rumors be the focal point rather than the actual official Pro Day numbers. No Short Shuttle/3-cone is noteworthy for a player trying to solidify his Top 10/15 status, especially when it’s a supposed strength.
I will say that while the 36 bench reps at 261 suggest he is strong af, his 9’10” broad jump at 261 suggests he lacks some explosiveness compared to the hype.
If Paye legitimately thought he could run a sub 6.5 3-cone or beat Von Miller’s time, either his agents or his coaches are dumb for not letting him prove it. The rumors all suggest he has that potential but the coaches/agent clearly felt it was better to have the rumors be the focal point rather than the actual official Pro Day numbers. No Short Shuttle/3-cone is noteworthy for a player trying to solidify his Top 10/15 status, especially when it’s a supposed strength.
I will say that while the 36 bench reps at 261 suggest he is strong af, his 9’10” broad jump at 261 suggests he lacks some explosiveness compared to the hype.
There is vid of him doing the 3 cone above. Apparently Im doing something wrong but he is coming in at 6.5 or so.
I was referring to the twitter vid. And I tend to agree with you as I didnt time it the way it was told.
Also, Impretty sure that 3 Cone is from Sept '20
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Also, Impretty sure that 3 Cone is from Sept '20
What I mean is that you should compare your own YouTube/Twitter time-stamped 40s or 3-cones to the videos from 2-3 years ago where we have the official electronic times. You can see how close you are. We’re talking about tenths of a second making a big difference here.
"He clocked the second-best 3-cone time on the team at a blistering 6.37 seconds, which would have topped anyone at the 2020 combine," The Athletic’s Bruce Feldman wrote. "Paye’s 40 is also moving at 4.57, with a solid 34-inch vertical and 30 reps on the bench press. Paye’s 40 time and 4.15 pro shuttle time are better than any D-lineman or edge player who tested at the 2020 combine. His 11.3 time in the 60-yard shuttle is also elite."
I mean the other claims seem to be backed up fairly well so I can’t really say I think Paye and his team are lying or anything. But it’s just interesting he chose not to participate in a drill that would have him potentially set a historic type of time.
If Paye legitimately thought he could run a sub 6.5 3-cone or beat Von Miller’s time, either his agents or his coaches are dumb for not letting him prove it. The rumors all suggest he has that potential but the coaches/agent clearly felt it was better to have the rumors be the focal point rather than the actual official Pro Day numbers. No Short Shuttle/3-cone is noteworthy for a player trying to solidify his Top 10/15 status, especially when it’s a supposed strength.
I will say that while the 36 bench reps at 261 suggest he is strong af, his 9’10” broad jump at 261 suggests he lacks some explosiveness compared to the hype.
I'm pretty sure that 3-cone that was linked from YouTube and Twitter was in the 6.5 range, so it's basically the same as skipping a drill at a pro day after acing it at the combine. Not exactly the same, but close. There is at least some evidence of Paye's 3-cone already, and realistically, it's probably the best 3-cone he's ever run. Doing it again at his pro day and coming in slower (especially if he packed on weight for the scale and the bench) doesn't help him at all.
Does it take a little bit of oomph out of that 3-cone that he did run? Definitely. Is it still impressive that he was capable of doing it on his best day? Also definitely, IMO.
There have been about 20 BBI threads over the last 2 years about Jadeveon Clowney and talking about how he isn’t worth the big bucks because he’s an average pass rusher despite being excellent at setting the edge and defending the run.
Paye might end up being a pass rushing stud on the next level, but the way he makes his presence felt (inside power/reacting to the run/not based on quickness off the snap) makes me feel like he doesn’t project to be a stud pass rusher on the next level at all.
He feels like a gold bet to develop into a B/B+, but I don’t see HOF potential there. He has a ton of work to do as an outside pass rusher and at only 262, that’s where he’ll need to make his money in the pros. Jaelan Phillips has by far the most HOF potential out of the edge group imo, he has every tool you’d want but you’re just hoping he can stay healthy. I get the concern but he’s the type of guy you swing at the fences for.