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| Pat Leonard @PLeonardNYDN · 3m Ex- #Giants VP of player evaluation Marc Ross, asked by Kevin if he could take one mulligan on a draft pick in his career, says in hindsight he would fight harder to draft Russell Wilson. Says then-NYG scout Ryan Jones said: “this guy’s the next Drew Brees.” What could have been |
It's sounding more and more like Fields may be there.
If I recall correctly, that Seahawks team was when you first started advocating for churning QB's regularly, not paying them second contracts because you felt that the run game and the legion of boom were more important to keep together than Wilson (who was up for his second contract), whom you viewed as more as a game manager/driver of the sports car at the time.
You were wrong about Wilson, he turned into a much better player than that. Where you have been proven right, is that the more money that went into Wilson, the less they would be able to keep that core of a team together, and you have the Seahawks as they exist today.
It's a catch 22.
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We heard last year they evaluated Herbert closely, maybe a smokescreen. It’s not impossible for any of Justin Fields, Trey Lance or Mac Jones to be available at #11.
It's sounding more and more like Fields may be there.
Not if ESPN gets its way. Fields and the WNBA being on par with all the major sports (used to include the shafting of Deshaun Watson but for some reason they are no longer pushing that one) are going to be the media-created realities of 2021.
Is that better than, say, using that draft capital to help Rodgers win the NFC?
But yeah, it's been a choice of one or the other...pay the QB or use the money on the rest of the roster. Now what will be interesting to see is how things go under the new CBA. In 2021 Rodgers is going to be the player with the largest percentage of his team's cap hit (20.3%). The 2021 cap is $182M. Before COVID hit, Albert Breer speculated the cap could hit $300M by around 2023.
So will the most expensive QB still be making 20% of that cap? That's a $60M cap hit. That would make Mahomes's 10 year, $450M contract a bargain. In two or three years Justin Herbert may be asking the Chargers for 5 years, $300M.
The rules we've spent 10 years getting used to might no longer apply.
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Having headaches is part of the job. Good players fighting for scarce positions means you've done something right. Obviously Love is never going to beat out Rodgers, so now GB is in the enviable position of having options at QB. Good headache to have.
Is that better than, say, using that draft capital to help Rodgers win the NFC?
The Packers went 13-3, had the highest scoring offense, the third highest point differential, and hosted the NFC title game. Do we really think they lost that game because they drafted Jordan Love? Shit, maybe drafting Love was the motivational kick in the ass that resulted in Rodgers putting up one of the greatest years in QB history.
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fans with little to no knowledge of how draft planning happens at an organizational level always gravitate towards one whipping boy when things go sideways. Despite the fact that it's probably a collaborative effort, with the GM and ownership weighing in frequently.
I don't claim to have inside knowledge on the NYG or Ross. I just find it weird that so many here believe they do.
Hi M Ross. U sucked. Bye
Another thing you can always expect from BBI, maturity.
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In comment 15221895 Go Terps said:
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Having headaches is part of the job. Good players fighting for scarce positions means you've done something right. Obviously Love is never going to beat out Rodgers, so now GB is in the enviable position of having options at QB. Good headache to have.
Is that better than, say, using that draft capital to help Rodgers win the NFC?
The Packers went 13-3, had the highest scoring offense, the third highest point differential, and hosted the NFC title game. Do we really think they lost that game because they drafted Jordan Love? Shit, maybe drafting Love was the motivational kick in the ass that resulted in Rodgers putting up one of the greatest years in QB history.
Yes they lost because they drafted Jordan Love and also wasting a 2nd round pick on a 3rd string RB who barely played because the coach wouldn't commit to a running game. To paraphase from Super Bowl XLVI, that was an Adams and Tonyan game - make him go to Lazard make him go to St. Brown. The Tampa defense at key junctures was double those two and force the rest of the targets to beat single coverage which they could not do. Had Green Bay had Aiyuk, Higgins, or Pittman opposite Adams that would have been a much different story.
What's up, B?
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Having headaches is part of the job. Good players fighting for scarce positions means you've done something right. Obviously Love is never going to beat out Rodgers, so now GB is in the enviable position of having options at QB. Good headache to have.
Is that better than, say, using that draft capital to help Rodgers win the NFC?
Yes, Green Bay should have known their 1st Team All-Pro Left Tackle Bakhtiari would tear his ACL right before the playoffs.
If they had simply planned ahead they could have traded up with us to grab Andrew Thomas instead of taking Love...
Ross was elevated to VP of Player Evaluation in 2007. Those 2008 and 2009 drafts hauled some nice players. KP, TT, MM, Nicks, Beatty, JPP, L. Joseph, etc. Some misses in the middle rounds and some outright busts later on, but to say he was a horrible exec is silly.
There are a multitude of reasons why the drafts progressively got worse. It may have been an organizational shift in philosophy. Others in the braintrust may have seized more control over the decision making. Or Ross just didn't put in the work. None of us knows for sure. But I do know which narrative many Giants fans choose to run with: Reese and Ross sucked. Coughlin was let down. Eli's career wasted by a front office seeking athletes over football players. It's myopic at best. And an "ist" term at worst.
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Area Scouts who were absolute dinosaurs and the sport passed them by about a decade before they were removed. That whole staff was littered with incompetence.
What's up, B?
Hangin in, my friend. How's the "bolt-on" market treating you these days?
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In comment 15222002 Bricktop said:
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Area Scouts who were absolute dinosaurs and the sport passed them by about a decade before they were removed. That whole staff was littered with incompetence.
What's up, B?
Hangin in, my friend. How's the "bolt-on" market treating you these days?
Lol, I've been settled for five years, my son will turn two next month.
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In comment 15222004 JonC said:
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In comment 15222002 Bricktop said:
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Area Scouts who were absolute dinosaurs and the sport passed them by about a decade before they were removed. That whole staff was littered with incompetence.
What's up, B?
Hangin in, my friend. How's the "bolt-on" market treating you these days?
Lol, I've been settled for five years, my son will turn two next month.
No way! Haha! That's great man! Congrats! My son turns 20 in November. Time flies bro. Enjoy every single day with that little guy.
Yeah man. He's a heavyweight wrestler at a Top 15 school majoring in computer science. It goes by way too fast!
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after Ross was elevated.
Ross was elevated to VP of Player Evaluation in 2007. Those 2008 and 2009 drafts hauled some nice players. KP, TT, MM, Nicks, Beatty, JPP, L. Joseph, etc. Some misses in the middle rounds and some outright busts later on, but to say he was a horrible exec is silly.
There are a multitude of reasons why the drafts progressively got worse. It may have been an organizational shift in philosophy. Others in the braintrust may have seized more control over the decision making. Or Ross just didn't put in the work. None of us knows for sure. But I do know which narrative many Giants fans choose to run with: Reese and Ross sucked. Coughlin was let down. Eli's career wasted by a front office seeking athletes over football players. It's myopic at best. And an "ist" term at worst.
Ross is ridiculous. Wilson would've become another backup on the Giants - Eli was coming off of his 2nd ring that year.
It's simple what happened. Chris Mara and Ross aside, the team believed after Eli won a ring with a questionable roster that they could just patch the team and Eli could get a third ring. They kept this philosophy even past Reese's dismissal with the drafting of Barkley. And finally, they were forced to move on from Eli.
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after Ross was elevated.
Ross was elevated to VP of Player Evaluation in 2007. Those 2008 and 2009 drafts hauled some nice players. KP, TT, MM, Nicks, Beatty, JPP, L. Joseph, etc. Some misses in the middle rounds and some outright busts later on, but to say he was a horrible exec is silly.
There are a multitude of reasons why the drafts progressively got worse. It may have been an organizational shift in philosophy. Others in the braintrust may have seized more control over the decision making. Or Ross just didn't put in the work. None of us knows for sure. But I do know which narrative many Giants fans choose to run with: Reese and Ross sucked. Coughlin was let down. Eli's career wasted by a front office seeking athletes over football players. It's myopic at best. And an "ist" term at worst.
Coughlin clearly had more control back then if you look at the guys we drafted. His control clearly started to wane after 2013/14 with a few bad seasons in a row and him getting up there in age. This is when the team really turned to shit and the hole we've needed to dig out of. DG made a miscalculation when he took over, but quickly rectified when the bullets started flying. Then they rectified the situation of having one of the worst coaching staffs in the league.
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Geez, I remember you talking about him when he was 5! Time does fly, somehow I'm gonna turn 51 with a 2 year old.
Yeah man. He's a heavyweight wrestler at a Top 15 school majoring in computer science. It goes by way too fast!
Awesome! And, a great degree program! My little dude is almost 23 months old and weighs 34 lbs already.
It's simple what happened. Chris Mara and Ross aside, the team believed after Eli won a ring with a questionable roster that they could just patch the team and Eli could get a third ring. They kept this philosophy even past Reese's dismissal with the drafting of Barkley. And finally, they were forced to move on from Eli.
I hate Marc Ross with every fiber of my being, but I can give them credit a little bit for realizing the game is changing offensively. Problem is, they wanted to install this type of offense for a QB that was a piss poor fit. Guys have certain strengths and weaknesses you can work around, but the one guy you need to tailor to is your QB. It was like, we are going to bring in all the supporting cast to run this offense with having a square peg in a round hole at QB.
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after Ross was elevated.
Ross was elevated to VP of Player Evaluation in 2007. Those 2008 and 2009 drafts hauled some nice players. KP, TT, MM, Nicks, Beatty, JPP, L. Joseph, etc. Some misses in the middle rounds and some outright busts later on, but to say he was a horrible exec is silly.
There are a multitude of reasons why the drafts progressively got worse. It may have been an organizational shift in philosophy. Others in the braintrust may have seized more control over the decision making. Or Ross just didn't put in the work. None of us knows for sure. But I do know which narrative many Giants fans choose to run with: Reese and Ross sucked. Coughlin was let down. Eli's career wasted by a front office seeking athletes over football players. It's myopic at best. And an "ist" term at worst.
Ross not doing the work was a pretty well-known fact that got out, and it is one component in an organization that clearly has its issues, and won rings in spite of them. I didn't say he was horrible, but he certainly was the man in charge of the drafts when the pipeline died off.
But yeah, it's been a choice of one or the other...pay the QB or use the money on the rest of the roster. Now what will be interesting to see is how things go under the new CBA. In 2021 Rodgers is going to be the player with the largest percentage of his team's cap hit (20.3%). The 2021 cap is $182M. Before COVID hit, Albert Breer speculated the cap could hit $300M by around 2023.
So will the most expensive QB still be making 20% of that cap? That's a $60M cap hit. That would make Mahomes's 10 year, $450M contract a bargain. In two or three years Justin Herbert may be asking the Chargers for 5 years, $300M.
The rules we've spent 10 years getting used to might no longer apply.
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In comment 15222000 JonC said:
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after Ross was elevated.
Ross was elevated to VP of Player Evaluation in 2007. Those 2008 and 2009 drafts hauled some nice players. KP, TT, MM, Nicks, Beatty, JPP, L. Joseph, etc. Some misses in the middle rounds and some outright busts later on, but to say he was a horrible exec is silly.
There are a multitude of reasons why the drafts progressively got worse. It may have been an organizational shift in philosophy. Others in the braintrust may have seized more control over the decision making. Or Ross just didn't put in the work. None of us knows for sure. But I do know which narrative many Giants fans choose to run with: Reese and Ross sucked. Coughlin was let down. Eli's career wasted by a front office seeking athletes over football players. It's myopic at best. And an "ist" term at worst.
Ross not doing the work was a pretty well-known fact that got out, and it is one component in an organization that clearly has its issues, and won rings in spite of them. I didn't say he was horrible, but he certainly was the man in charge of the drafts when the pipeline died off.
What I was told by a credible source was similar to what you posted. Ross put more time into building his image and other interests than putting the work in to keep producing at a high level. It wasn't characterized as laziness, just a lack of dedication to continual improvement
How do you feel about that? The men in my family all have children in their 40s going way back and I'm starting to think I"m going to be the first one to crack the 50 mark.
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In comment 15222011 PwndPapi said:
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In comment 15222000 JonC said:
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after Ross was elevated.
Ross was elevated to VP of Player Evaluation in 2007. Those 2008 and 2009 drafts hauled some nice players. KP, TT, MM, Nicks, Beatty, JPP, L. Joseph, etc. Some misses in the middle rounds and some outright busts later on, but to say he was a horrible exec is silly.
There are a multitude of reasons why the drafts progressively got worse. It may have been an organizational shift in philosophy. Others in the braintrust may have seized more control over the decision making. Or Ross just didn't put in the work. None of us knows for sure. But I do know which narrative many Giants fans choose to run with: Reese and Ross sucked. Coughlin was let down. Eli's career wasted by a front office seeking athletes over football players. It's myopic at best. And an "ist" term at worst.
Ross not doing the work was a pretty well-known fact that got out, and it is one component in an organization that clearly has its issues, and won rings in spite of them. I didn't say he was horrible, but he certainly was the man in charge of the drafts when the pipeline died off.
What I was told by a credible source was similar to what you posted. Ross put more time into building his image and other interests than putting the work in to keep producing at a high level. It wasn't characterized as laziness, just a lack of dedication to continual improvement
Do guys with Ross's job typically work 70-80+ hour weeks and he just lost the fire? I'm sort of befuddled how someone could work hard (presumably) to get to that point, get close to being a GM elsewhere, and just slack off.
I don't think it is so much about how many hours you put in - but just making sure you are prepared, whether it is doing the work yourself or knowing who to delegate to that will get the work done.
Also, just like some assistant coaches don't make good HC's that same philosophy can be said about being elevated to a different position in an organization. Sometimes taking on a bigger responsibility results in failure.
What was told to me is that Ross was often unprepared. That could be an issue with him looking for other opportunitites, it could be poor delegating skills, it could be from a variety of isues.
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In comment 15222011 PwndPapi said:
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In comment 15222000 JonC said:
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after Ross was elevated.
Ross was elevated to VP of Player Evaluation in 2007. Those 2008 and 2009 drafts hauled some nice players. KP, TT, MM, Nicks, Beatty, JPP, L. Joseph, etc. Some misses in the middle rounds and some outright busts later on, but to say he was a horrible exec is silly.
There are a multitude of reasons why the drafts progressively got worse. It may have been an organizational shift in philosophy. Others in the braintrust may have seized more control over the decision making. Or Ross just didn't put in the work. None of us knows for sure. But I do know which narrative many Giants fans choose to run with: Reese and Ross sucked. Coughlin was let down. Eli's career wasted by a front office seeking athletes over football players. It's myopic at best. And an "ist" term at worst.
Ross not doing the work was a pretty well-known fact that got out, and it is one component in an organization that clearly has its issues, and won rings in spite of them. I didn't say he was horrible, but he certainly was the man in charge of the drafts when the pipeline died off.
What I was told by a credible source was similar to what you posted. Ross put more time into building his image and other interests than putting the work in to keep producing at a high level. It wasn't characterized as laziness, just a lack of dedication to continual improvement
These are the little bits of info that always get overlooked. Ross taking over in 2007 when the drafts were still good. That changed in 2011.
Yes, you can blame Reese for keeping Ross too long, but Reese gets blamed for almost everything.
He was a big part of the reason we won.
I do believe the downfall started with Ross, but I don't even think it is one person's fault. It was a combination of poor drafts, bad injury luck and players not developing (which is more at the feet of coaching).
That's great to hear! Yeah I've met a few I would, but I'm pretty far from that next step and has probably broken up a few relationships. And I certainly don't see the point in getting married unless having a kid. I just got a puppy and I can't do a baby for at least another 5 years. Something I want to have all my ducks in a row before I do. What a gamechanger!
But yeah your right, I have cousins twenty years older than me, which was actually really cool and honestly super beneficial. Probably going to happen the same way for me and my sister.
That's quite a leap in logic there.
I don't think it is so much about how many hours you put in - but just making sure you are prepared, whether it is doing the work yourself or knowing who to delegate to that will get the work done.
Also, just like some assistant coaches don't make good HC's that same philosophy can be said about being elevated to a different position in an organization. Sometimes taking on a bigger responsibility results in failure.
What was told to me is that Ross was often unprepared. That could be an issue with him looking for other opportunitites, it could be poor delegating skills, it could be from a variety of isues.
Thanks, interesting stuff. There seemed to be more contempt for Ross than anyone else fired from the Giants.
Classic. So you think it was Professor Plum in the Conservatory with the Lead Pipe?
Classic. So you think it was Professor Plum in the Conservatory with the Lead Pipe?
It's not often we get a glimpse of conspiracy tilt unfold before our eyes in a single post.
Jerk yourself off some more, Marc.
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I remember watching him on NFL network the first time a bunch of years back, and was flabbergasted he was on. Turned me off NFL network tbh. Why does this guy get to parade around like some sort of expert? Oh yeah right, he was milking information from the organization and using it as currency to set him up in the media. What a snake.
Classic. So you think it was Professor Plum in the Conservatory with the Lead Pipe?
I know connecting dots is hard for you to understand. To be fair though, I'd imagine Connect 4 is hard for you to grasp.
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In comment 15222223 Zeke's Alibi said:
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I remember watching him on NFL network the first time a bunch of years back, and was flabbergasted he was on. Turned me off NFL network tbh. Why does this guy get to parade around like some sort of expert? Oh yeah right, he was milking information from the organization and using it as currency to set him up in the media. What a snake.
Classic. So you think it was Professor Plum in the Conservatory with the Lead Pipe?
I know connecting dots is hard for you to understand. To be fair though, I'd imagine Connect 4 is hard for you to grasp.
Don’t play it much. But please, help us connect the dots on your little theory above as to how Ross was the reincarnation of Benedict Arnold...
Accorsi, Reese, Gettleman, Ross, Coughlin, Gilbride, Spags, Fewell plus countless players all had stretches of peak performance that overlapped.
Those stars don't align forever -- age, focus, personal lives, complacency, ego etc. get in the way.
Marc Ross made a comment, expressing regret for not listening to his staff. He was blaming himself, not giving himself credit for discovering Wilson.
The resentment towards the group that helped deliver one of the better runs this franchise ever had is so weird.