Assumptions: Parsons has passed the JJ litmus test and Davonta Smith is gone.
Disclaimer: As I’ve said ad nauseam, Whomever Judge decides to pick at 11, I’m all in with
So with that all said, let’s say it’s between Waddle, Parsons, Slater and one of the Edges.
Despite some limitations I’ve been reading about, I’m NOW hoping the pick is Parsons..He sounds like one of a kind player, who can be used by Graham in varying scenarios. I believe he makes an already good D, much better.
JJ saw first hand how well Belichick’s Ds have done relying mainly on his Interior D and the Secondary and quite versatile Linebacking. .Of course the genius of BB cannot be underscored enough. Still, we seemed to follow BB’s template last year with pretty good results once the players acclimated to Graham. Now we’ve added Jackson at corner and have a healthy McKinney at S..
Waddle, on paper would be a great add, but I’m convinced with a healthy Barkley (I don’t believe it’s a big IF, but that’s just an opinion) the addition of Rudolph and of course Golladay, we have armed DJ with nice receiving options. Too, many have mentioned here and in the media, that we can fortify the receiving corps in rounds 2 and 3, perhaps even later.
As to Slater, I’d be perfectly fine with what I’ve read he brings to the long term table, but i’ve also read/learned the 2nd and 3rd rounds can be tapped for good OL that could upgrade what we have now. It SEEMS, JJ is “set” on Peart at ORT, at least set in the ‘his job to lose’ mindset. Again, that’s what it seems from afar.
Since I only know what I’ve read and learned on here, which is my only basis for my collegiate preference, I’d love your ALMOST final opinions on this.
Again, as I mentioned in the thread title, I’m assuming the BPAs are in the same tier and close to one another in value according to the Giants..
What say you?
That reminds me of a poem:
She offered her honor,
He honored her offer.
And all night long,
It was on 'er and off 'er.
Maybe not LTs...but the draft have great guards, RT, C on the 2nd.
I also believe Parsons can rush the passer better then most....so he is as multiple as they come...fit perfectly....can play inside....but for Giants...he is OLB
The draft appears to be deep with OL and WR. Drafting to the strength to me means finding good players at those positions in rounds 2-4. That is why we have scouts. Most GMs aren’t given credit for hitting on 1st round picks, they are supposed to lol. Finding a Snee, a Toomer, a Jacob’s, a Bradshaw, a Strahan or an Armstead is where the scouts prove their worth.
I’m all in a Parsons round one and let Graham figure out his starting position.
Maybe not LTs...but the draft have great guards, RT, C on the 2nd.
I also believe Parsons can rush the passer better then most....so he is as multiple as they come...fit perfectly....can play inside....but for Giants...he is OLB
George, you and me seems to be on the same page. I just hope Detroit and Denver leave Parsons on the board.
In reality, I think Waddle would be the choice(if the ankle is ok). Slater would help settle the interior line, but I think day 2 IOL will be there. There are choices at ER that would be better suited to drafting at the 15-20 slot eventhough Paye at #11 would be close to value. Phillips would be, but that medical history is too dicey to take him. If Horn is there at CB, it would give them a wild secondary even with what they have now.
Like you, whom ever JJ and DG decide on will be good by me.
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I was on him at first then off, now I'm back on. I trust Judge to make the right call. I wish we had an extra Day 2 pick though :-(
That reminds me of a poem:
She offered her honor,
He honored her offer.
And all night long,
It was on 'er and off 'er.
+1,000 lol!!!
The tiebreaker for me is the drop-off from Slater and a day 2 guard vs. Waddle and day 2 WR.
If we can get Dickerson or we feel really good about someone like Leatherwood then that is a pretty great consolation prize. Can we get Toney in the 2nd? Again, not too bad.
I think Waddle --> Toney is a greater drop-off than Slater -->Dickerson. So I go Waddle but Slater would be great too.
Dream scenario for me:
Jaylen Waddle
Joe Tryon
Trey Smith
Tommy Tremble
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I was on him at first then off, now I'm back on. I trust Judge to make the right call. I wish we had an extra Day 2 pick though :-(
That reminds me of a poem:
She offered her honor,
He honored her offer.
And all night long,
It was on 'er and off 'er.
There’s another version ...
She offered her honor, he honored her offer
And when he got on her, he wouldn’t get off her.
Could be and I’m fine with it, if that’s his core belief
p.s.--As for Parsons, since when is inside LB the team's biggest need?
With Spence....the Giants know Parsons....good or bad. So...if they do not draft him...it's because they feel it would be a bad mix....and if they do draft him...us "outsiders" should not be worried.
I am not opposed with an "overpay" trade down with a QB hungry team.....as the GA kid, who has all the intangibles that Judge would love or Oweh who might have the best athletic traits of anyone in draft.....with extra picks in 2nd which is absolutely stacked....would be great.
So I have high hopes for this draft
I have to admit that the concerns about Parsons that have come out have shaken my belief in him. But if Judge believes in him I'm in, and the thought of someone with his explosiveness mixed in with Martinez'es power, smarts and discipline is exciting.
Payne brings a different dimension of need as he is actually an edge rusher and we really could use a premium edge rusher.
You want to give Jones more tools, then Chase, Waddle and Smith are all the Bomb for different reasons and all will have immediate impact imo.
I'm not sold on the top Olineman, nor do I believe that any of them will have impact next season, so you might as well go lower in the draft to add another one to the mix, again all things being equal. For my money there are several excellent options in the second, third, and even the fourth round at guard and center; and while that's true of WR too, Chase Waddle and Smith are going to have top level impact right away.
But we are not really talking about the overall Giants need or even the overall Giants success here on BBI, are we? We are talking about the success or failure, with a predisposition towards failure, of Daniel Jones and, by extension, Dave Gettleman.
In that case, our overwhelming need is to provide as much support for Daniel Jones and thereby give him the least excuse for failure. I honestly think we should focus more on Waddle and then on another OL/RB/WR/TE as we move on down the draft. Give him an unassailable offensive cast and see what he can do, while punting shoring up the ILB and edge spots until the 2022 draft (and load up there). That way we will know if we can safely extend both Jones and Barkley.
I think that if we have a very strong offense, securing in knowing that Jones can lead them to points, we can win with the defense we had last year plus the FA additions. Even if we lose and clearly lose due to a poor and porous defense, then only Go Terps will blame Daniel Jones for the losses, while the fair and objective people will be comfortable in our QB going forward and can patch what will surely be only a few remaining z9defneseive) holes in the subsequent draft and (high capped) FA year.
Now, I'm pretty sure both would start immediately - Parson and Slater. That is a real plus. And I really like Parsons, so he's a very good consolation prize.
At the end of the day, we need to score significantly more points than we need to stop points. Slater for me.
With all of that said, from everything I have read and heard, this is an offensive draft. Offensive linemen and wide receivers are available all throughout the draft.
Parsons represents a real value at 11 to be a real presence on our defense as well as pressuring the quarterback. I worry about his coverage skills and character, but he has speed and can develop under graham and our coaches.
The DE class really is a boom or bust class and that really worries me. Whether its size, production or medical.
If parsons clears the character concerns, then he would be the best value and need at 11 imo
That said my guess is there is someone they really like who will be available who they have rated really high and that’s who they take. I have no idea who that is. Might be Parsons.
Parsons and some of the other defensive players (LB/Edge?CB) that will be available seem to be the players that you most likely won't find as the draft goes on. I think ultimately think Judge sees it this way and we end up with a D player.
p.s.--As for Parsons, since when is inside LB the team's biggest need?
Parsons is a playmaker. The team needs playmakers.
This is the best way to help manage the Cap long term. It is something that the Patriots have been excellent at. They have not picked many 1st OL and they have let a lot of good lineman go having a strong pipeline and development system. Giants should follow this strategy imo.
Improving the Oline means Jones has extra time to allow our WR to attempt to get separation.
Here, I think WR who can get separation makes a bigger difference than counting on WR who already can't get separation to get it with some extra time.
Getting a better secondary (e.g. Jackson and McKinney) gives a lesser edge rusher and other rushers more time to pressure the QB.
Getting a better edge rusher (and other rushers) relieves pressure on the secondary by giving the QB less time to throw.
Here it's probably a wash, although I would lean towards the secondary making more of a difference given the ever-increasing mobility of QB's to evade the rush.
All in all, I continue to believe that the unicorn WR (which is *only* Smith and Waddle) make the biggest impact on this team's ability to win more games.
I'm a big fan of finding OL gems later in the draft. I'm hoping for best OG avail in 3rd rd this yr.
And assuming Parsons passed the character test, I'm good with him in rd 1 and best avail WR in rd 2.
My guess is if they are thinking Parsons, they won't trade down and will happily take him at 11 (and some BBIers will scream - we could've traded down!).
With that said, value meeting need is probably Slater (or even more so Sewell if he somehow dropped). But a guy that may be on his own tier when we pick is Devonta Smith. Value may be too good to pass up. Sewell is the only OL on Devonta's tier in my estimation on their board.
Tiers being something like
Tier 1: Sewell, Pitts, Smith, Chase
Tier 2: Paye, Ojulari, Slater, Phillips, Vera Tucker
In that case its Parsons in a landslide for me. Potential game wrecker is exactly what the Giants need. I've thought all along after FA that they are going to swing for the fences and Parsons fits the bill.
Even with all the QBs that could go early, I expect Smith, Parsons, and Surtain to be gone. Think that brings us to Paye or trading down for Edge and an extra pick.
I think the only OL they would consider is Sewell if he somehow fell.
Unless I'm missing someone, he found two - Turner and Norwell - both in 2014. I'd hardly call that amazing.
Even with all the QBs that could go early, I expect Smith, Parsons, and Surtain to be gone. Think that brings us to Paye or trading down for Edge and an extra pick.
I think the only OL they would consider is Sewell if he somehow fell.
Are you personally down on Waddle or is that your feeling about the team? I think he would be a tremendous get, myself.
I don't want to speak for BB '56, but I believe his disclaimer is based on the Giants connections and inside knowledge of Penn St and Parsons. Of course it's possible that it's not smoke and he really is off their board because of that inside info. But for the sake of this thread, we're assuming that's not the case and that they're confident he's matured since the hazing incident, etc.
For who would make the biggest impact on the team, I'd say Waddle or Smith.
Personally I get BPA and I get need, but I've always thought the question should really be "who will improve my team the most if I draft them?" For that its the WRs.
Even with all the QBs that could go early, I expect Smith, Parsons, and Surtain to be gone. Think that brings us to Paye or trading down for Edge and an extra pick.
I think the only OL they would consider is Sewell if he somehow fell.
In this scenario I would be ok with Paye but would prefer a trade down with maybe New England, get a 2nd round or 3rd and 5th, and select Azeez Ojulari. He checks more boxes with what NYG is looking for in and Edge player
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at #11, you're potentially looking at Smith, Parsons, Waddle, Surtain, Horn, and then you're into the Edge with Paye presumably leading the charge. I'm not certain Waddle would be picked, but Smith would be if there's there. Suspect they would not pass over Surtain, but expect he'll be gone. Will Parsons go early is a key question, and he should based on talent.
Even with all the QBs that could go early, I expect Smith, Parsons, and Surtain to be gone. Think that brings us to Paye or trading down for Edge and an extra pick.
I think the only OL they would consider is Sewell if he somehow fell.
Are you personally down on Waddle or is that your feeling about the team? I think he would be a tremendous get, myself.
I haven't heard his name since very early on, suspect they would pounce on Smith but would go in a different direction if he's gone.
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at #11, you're potentially looking at Smith, Parsons, Waddle, Surtain, Horn, and then you're into the Edge with Paye presumably leading the charge. I'm not certain Waddle would be picked, but Smith would be if there's there. Suspect they would not pass over Surtain, but expect he'll be gone. Will Parsons go early is a key question, and he should based on talent.
Even with all the QBs that could go early, I expect Smith, Parsons, and Surtain to be gone. Think that brings us to Paye or trading down for Edge and an extra pick.
I think the only OL they would consider is Sewell if he somehow fell.
In this scenario I would be ok with Paye but would prefer a trade down with maybe New England, get a 2nd round or 3rd and 5th, and select Azeez Ojulari. He checks more boxes with what NYG is looking for in and Edge player
I'm not a huge fan of Ojulari, he takes too many plays off and disappears for stretches. I want more of an impact presence there. The UGA LBs not named Roquan have come into the NFL with question marks they've not escaped.
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In comment 15225468 JonC said:
Are you personally down on Waddle or is that your feeling about the team? I think he would be a tremendous get myself.
I haven't heard his name since very early on, suspect they would pounce on Smith but would go in a different direction if he's gone.
Actually, that we haven’t heard his name may be a reason to think they do like him if they are managing the information well. Who knows?
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He was amazing at finding late round OL gems in NC.....just saying.
Unless I'm missing someone, he found two - Turner and Norwell - both in 2014. I'd hardly call that amazing.
Daryl Williams in rd.4. Not sure if Nick Gates was on his watch too.
Even though Thomas had a slow start, he played every snap he was asked with a foot issue and we didn't hear a peep about it, and he's coachable.
In my mind - that puts a few guys OUT of the picture at 11, it just depends on if the Giants agree
Even though Thomas had a slow start, he played every snap he was asked with a foot issue and we didn't hear a peep about it, and he's coachable.
In my mind - that puts a few guys OUT of the picture at 11, it just depends on if the Giants agree
Good post. Based on much of what you say, I get this feeling that they will not consider Parsons an ideal culture fit.
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In comment 15225474 Bill L said:
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In comment 15225468 JonC said:
Are you personally down on Waddle or is that your feeling about the team? I think he would be a tremendous get myself.
I haven't heard his name since very early on, suspect they would pounce on Smith but would go in a different direction if he's gone.
Actually, that we haven’t heard his name may be a reason to think they do like him if they are managing the information well. Who knows?
I'm by no means the final answer on these points, but the info is still getting out there and his name hasn't been mentioned much.
Owusu-Koramoah
Vera-Tucker
Paye
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In comment 15225498 JonC said:
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In comment 15225474 Bill L said:
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In comment 15225468 JonC said:
Are you personally down on Waddle or is that your feeling about the team? I think he would be a tremendous get myself.
I haven't heard his name since very early on, suspect they would pounce on Smith but would go in a different direction if he's gone.
Actually, that we haven’t heard his name may be a reason to think they do like him if they are managing the information well. Who knows?
I'm by no means the final answer on these points, but the info is still getting out there and his name hasn't been mentioned much.
The info is getting out there but what info. The info they want you to hear. We can hope that’s what is getting out there.
Exactly. Sacking a QB is a legitimate skill. I struggle to think of any top sack artist who didn't show that skill at the college level. So I don't care how much potential Paye has, or how close he gets, I'm not betting that he finally becomes a real sack force at the pro level. NFW.
He is the remote thrower in this draft.
I guess what I'm saying with Paye is, if he's constantly in the backfield but only gets 8 sacks...we will be more than pleased
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unspectacular Edge. I’m not sure the Giants would draft a developmental Edge at #11. He just has not shown the ability to get to the QB consistently and at the next level do we really believe he’s going to shine? I might consider Paye in the later part of the first round, but they’ll be better value there at #11.
Exactly. Sacking a QB is a legitimate skill. I struggle to think of any top sack artist who didn't show that skill at the college level. So I don't care how much potential Paye has, or how close he gets, I'm not betting that he finally becomes a real sack force at the pro level. NFW.
He is the remote thrower in this draft.
Danielle Hunter, JPP?
I guess what I'm saying with Paye is, if he's constantly in the backfield but only gets 8 sacks...we will be more than pleased
I'm not advocating Paye as I like other players at 11 but he did also come close to leading the country in pressures according to Sy.
Slater is a safe bet, plays at a position of need, has positional versatility. He's not the most exciting choice but he's arguably the best choice the Giants can make in this draft considering the massive question marks on the OL.
Waddle is very exciting and he does deserve the Tyreek Hill comparisons. But at the same time, I question whether he is a true #1 on the next level or a really explosive #2/3 type. Plus he has injury concerns. I think I'd prefer WR in round 2/3 than Waddle in round 1.
Parsons is intriguing as well, but it feels like he's a guy who you're going to have to scheme a specific way for him to make an impact. He can be a bigtime playmaker on the next level or he could be a JAG. I feel safer with the other guys I mentioned.
A. I didn't want to pay LW this year.
B. And it took LW about six years to break double digit sacks in the NFL. I don't think he ever did it at USC...?
Exactly. Sacking a QB is a legitimate skill. I struggle to think of any top sack artist who didn't show that skill at the college level. So I don't care how much potential Paye has, or how close he gets, I'm not betting that he finally becomes a real sack force at the pro level. NFW.
He is the remote thrower in this draft.
Danielle Hunter, JPP?
Hunter was a third round investment. So he's a project that worked out. But that's a fair point. I didn't see his production coming. Again, there was a reason he went in the third round.
JPP was killing it at the JUCO level before he played one season at S. Florida.
I honestly do not see Paye as an ideal fit in the defense as an edge guy. Phillips yes, Ojulari yes, Oweh yes, Tryon yes, Odenyinbo yes, but I think Parsons is a guy that needs to be looked at as a potentional target and candidate to move outside and be that guy. Spencer knows his skill set and is you want a snap shot of how quick he is go to his pro day and watch the bag drills. His feet hips and and hands are insane. He actually said he loves playing outside.
Shaq Barrett is shorter and slower than Parsons BTW but 5 lbs heavier.
I guess what I'm saying with Paye is, if he's constantly in the backfield but only gets 8 sacks...we will be more than pleased
I tend to agree with this sentiment on hits/pressures especially from a DT (versus a DE).
LW's recent sacks totals can range as low as 0.5 and as high as 11.5 so not sure too much confidence should be put on either boundary going forward although he got his NYG contract off the latter.
We're going into territory here that doesn't apply. LW isn't a true edge guy. He's more of a hybrid inside/outside. So I don't think any comparison here applies for what we need - a 3-4 edge candidate, and more, IMV, in the standup role.
I just don't see Paye as an elite pass rusher. Which is what we should be aspiring to if we made that bet at #11. Hell, I don't think there are any surefire elite pass rushers in this draft. There are mostly projects. I really like Ojulari, and I would draft him in the first round, but not at #11.
Parsons
When I flip and use the results to decided who get, I am truly happy with either.
Slater: I will not be upset but I do like some of the guards mocked early in the second just as much if not more. I like BIG guards.
Edge. None of them are worth close to 11. Honestly, I think in a normal year for edge all of these are round 2 talents. Just NO!
[quote] but the tea leaves seem to be Smith or they're going Edge. I'd pick Parsons or one of the CBs, or pick Paye if they're hellbent on Edge at #11. [/quote
I think that I would cry if they picked Paye before 15 (or, much better, lower).
I think the choice for NYG will be Parson, one of the corners or Paye. I would love Parsons, be OK with one of the corners and I would throw my remote for Paye at 11.
[quote] but the tea leaves seem to be Smith or they're going Edge. I'd pick Parsons or one of the CBs, or pick Paye if they're hellbent on Edge at #11. [/quote
I think that I would cry if they picked Paye before 15 (or, much better, lower).
I get it, but if there's no trade down to be had, taking your Edge at #11 is better than not at all.
do you think they factor in who they like and who they would hate to release when they pick, even if the pick is an upgrade? Because, if the edge they get is merely good, don't forget that we've got a million guys in that spot already, so they are definitely going to have to kick someone.
Because we've seen it before with DG - he will hit the panic button on draft day.
Because we've seen it before with DG - he will hit the panic button on draft day.
Define panic. Barkley was not a panic pick; neither was Jones, nor Lawrence, nor Thomas. They were who he wanted at the spot he thought was appropriate. I would bet money that they were delivered to the commissioner in a cold, calm voice.
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In comment 15225603 JonC said:
[quote] but the tea leaves seem to be Smith or they're going Edge. I'd pick Parsons or one of the CBs, or pick Paye if they're hellbent on Edge at #11. [/quote
I think that I would cry if they picked Paye before 15 (or, much better, lower).
I get it, but if there's no trade down to be had, taking your Edge at #11 is better than not at all.
Grabbing just for an Edge at #11 just to ensure you don't miss one is not optimal imv. If they make the grade and are in your top tier, then fine.
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In comment 15225739 Bill L said:
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In comment 15225603 JonC said:
[quote] but the tea leaves seem to be Smith or they're going Edge. I'd pick Parsons or one of the CBs, or pick Paye if they're hellbent on Edge at #11. [/quote
I think that I would cry if they picked Paye before 15 (or, much better, lower).
I get it, but if there's no trade down to be had, taking your Edge at #11 is better than not at all.
Grabbing just for an Edge at #11 just to ensure you don't miss one is not optimal imv. If they make the grade and are in your top tier, then fine.
We'll likely not know one way or the other. They grabbed Jones and Thomas the same way, imv.
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at #11 is a force pick. Or maybe even a panic pick.
Because we've seen it before with DG - he will hit the panic button on draft day.
Define panic. Barkley was not a panic pick; neither was Jones, nor Lawrence, nor Thomas. They were who he wanted at the spot he thought was appropriate. I would bet money that they were delivered to the commissioner in a cold, calm voice.
Don't think any of these should be defined as panic picks, outside of Jones at 6 versus 17.
I get it, but if there's no trade down to be had, taking your Edge at #11 is better than not at all.
Grabbing just for an Edge at #11 just to ensure you don't miss one is not optimal imv. If they make the grade and are in your top tier, then fine.
We'll likely not know one way or the other. They grabbed Jones and Thomas the same way, imv.
Yes on Jones. Thomas I would think much lesser so. Either way, doing it again doesn't make it a better outcome.
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I get it, but if there's no trade down to be had, taking your Edge at #11 is better than not at all.
Grabbing just for an Edge at #11 just to ensure you don't miss one is not optimal imv. If they make the grade and are in your top tier, then fine.
We'll likely not know one way or the other. They grabbed Jones and Thomas the same way, imv.
Yes on Jones. Thomas I would think much lesser so. Either way, doing it again doesn't make it a better outcome.
Not my point, just pointing our their tendency.
I'm an optimizer by nature, the way they draft drives me nuts.
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In comment 15225788 JonC said:
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I get it, but if there's no trade down to be had, taking your Edge at #11 is better than not at all.
Grabbing just for an Edge at #11 just to ensure you don't miss one is not optimal imv. If they make the grade and are in your top tier, then fine.
We'll likely not know one way or the other. They grabbed Jones and Thomas the same way, imv.
Yes on Jones. Thomas I would think much lesser so. Either way, doing it again doesn't make it a better outcome.
Not my point, just pointing our their tendency.
I'm an optimizer by nature, the way they draft drives me nuts.
Jon
in this case based on what we are hearing , I see:
Tier 1: Sewell,Smith,Chase,Pitts (order unknown but this is likely close to their top row)
Tier 2: Paye,Ojulari,Waddle,Slater,Surtain,Horn, Phillips? (Order also not fully known but it seems like Paye and Oju may be top of tier 2.)
So if no one makes it out of tier 1 it looks like Paye /Oju with the Edge going to Paye.
*In this case would you have an issue with this approach? I would agree that Horn or Surtain should probably be a higher grade (or at least top of tier 2). However with 30MM invested in ou top 2 CBs AND a promising slot CB in Holmes , I'd be less inclined for the CB. Parsons not as much due to the character concerns (on talent alone absolutely)
My choice was Herbert, but knowing the Giants already picked their QB, I was looking BPA according to my board. Thomas was roughly #10. Time will tell, but relying on "young guys need time" is not a fully compelling argument. You might as well move onto other topics in that case.
I mean, if I did that, I would have Josh Allen (the LB) and Herbert.
Same. So, for the 29th, suppose you look at the 2022 WR, edge, OG in terms of not just depth, but top-end quality. Does that change the 2021 calculus? For me (admittedly not knowing anything) I just can't believe the top-end WR group (AL) would be better next year.
Rookie Cornerbacks seldom hold up on a consistent basis in year one. Steep learning curve going head-to-head with so many different yet talented WRs on a weekly basis.
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For example, where is the likely depth in next year's draft? I'm sure that's hard to predict (as would be the slot we are picking) but could this also help to inform this year's best pick at #11?
I mean, if I did that, I would have Josh Allen (the LB) and Herbert.
This is precisely why you don't reach for need. NFL teams are simply price takers and must take what the board gives. Nothing more nothing less. The fact that we have a need does not make a prospect talented. Talent wins championships. Selecting players based on need, character or work ethic is akin to paving the path to hell with good intentions.
ColHowPepper : 4/18/2021 1:39 pm : link : reply
In comment 15224639 cosmicj said:
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...Parsons being moved to ILB at Penn State implies that this is his best position. Edge pass rushers are much rarer in the college game, too. So he’s an ILB. I don’t necessarily see that as a problem. Was Luke Kuechly overdrafted? No.
cosmicj, to flesh out your line of thinking, but on the opposite tack, is rjanyg's comment:
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He played off ball LB at PSU, but what most don’t know is he was recruited as an DE/OLB. He moved to LB out of need for the team. He has even said in interviews that he is very comfortable playing outside since he was a pass rusher in high school. Also played RB in high school, go check out some YouTube video of that.
For those familiar with PSU last year, how good was its talent at OLB? In other words, if they were strong at the OLB position, it tends to validate ryanyg's thought; if not, then maybe Parsons was moved due to lack of fit outside.
1. Parsons
2. Chase
3. Sewell
4. Surtain
5. Horn
6. Slater
7. Smith
8. Waddle
You could argue that for this year, OL is a higher need than CB but over the next five years, CB is probably just as important given the current situation of players under contract.
So while these are listed in the order of my preferences, good arguments could be made for any of these players at eleven. If the Giants want to address need beyond the players here, then they should trade down for a sensible package of picks.
100% agree. This is why I feel that with Coach Spencer knowing Parsons and having recruited him it makes me think if he is there at 11 he is the pick. You have to take all things into consideration. If we talk about character you must talk about talent, scheme fit, versatility, measurables,athletic ability, pro day numbers and most important the game video.
I am as guilty of trying to put players in a box and saying they are a MLB or a WLB or a SLB etc. The reality is the NFL has changed and NY Giant runs a multiple front 3-4 Hybrid defense which will be in Nickel 50 percent of the game. 4 LB can be on the field all the time in base 3-4 alignment or nickel. It is not until the dime package comes in that you have only 1 ILB on the field. Parsons is a 3 down LB regardless of where he lines up.
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on the Edge. It's often easier for an athlete to be taught and absorb over playing inside, especially if he play contain with discipline and pointed downhill at the QB. Parsons has the physical package, and here's hoping him playing inside hid some of his potential. Nothing more multiple than a LB who can play inside and outside in multiple fronts.
Good thoughts, Jon. As a counter, which I cannot validate or dispute, a poster on that Sunday or another thread viewed footage of Parsons inside and said most of his sacks and TFL were blitzing through big holes in the opponent's OLs created by PSU's DL schemes. This poster's point was that it was less Parsons' ability than scheme that freed him to wreak havoc. fwiw. I've seen no film so can't comment. But I bet Graham/Judge have.
Ray Lewis (on the field) was a HOFer. Yet, he was given freedom to roam and wreak havoc because Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa kept him clean for years..Even great players oft times need help to wreak the havoc, imo
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on the Edge. It's often easier for an athlete to be taught and absorb over playing inside, especially if he play contain with discipline and pointed downhill at the QB. Parsons has the physical package, and here's hoping him playing inside hid some of his potential. Nothing more multiple than a LB who can play inside and outside in multiple fronts.
100% agree. This is why I feel that with Coach Spencer knowing Parsons and having recruited him it makes me think if he is there at 11 he is the pick. You have to take all things into consideration. If we talk about character you must talk about talent, scheme fit, versatility, measurables,athletic ability, pro day numbers and most important the game video.
I am as guilty of trying to put players in a box and saying they are a MLB or a WLB or a SLB etc. The reality is the NFL has changed and NY Giant runs a multiple front 3-4 Hybrid defense which will be in Nickel 50 percent of the game. 4 LB can be on the field all the time in base 3-4 alignment or nickel. It is not until the dime package comes in that you have only 1 ILB on the field. Parsons is a 3 down LB regardless of where he lines up.
Great point. And this is precisely the problem by sticking the "ILB" label on him. Parsons is a defensive playmaker and will play a key role in any Graham personnel scheme on every down.
You keep repeating the same mantra re: talent needs time, and add little other substance to your arguments. Why do you think some posters are constantly trying to kick the shit of you at a personal level? (myself not included)
Re: 2020, my pick was Herbert. Knowing the Giants weren't going to pick a QB, clearly, my pick was Okudah. I'd still take either one over Thomas. The good news, he's got time to prove me wrong, lol.
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In comment 15225905 JonC said:
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on the Edge. It's often easier for an athlete to be taught and absorb over playing inside, especially if he play contain with discipline and pointed downhill at the QB. Parsons has the physical package, and here's hoping him playing inside hid some of his potential. Nothing more multiple than a LB who can play inside and outside in multiple fronts.
Good thoughts, Jon. As a counter, which I cannot validate or dispute, a poster on that Sunday or another thread viewed footage of Parsons inside and said most of his sacks and TFL were blitzing through big holes in the opponent's OLs created by PSU's DL schemes. This poster's point was that it was less Parsons' ability than scheme that freed him to wreak havoc. fwiw. I've seen no film so can't comment. But I bet Graham/Judge have.
Ray Lewis (on the field) was a HOFer. Yet, he was given freedom to roam and wreak havoc because Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa kept him clean for years..Even great players oft times need help to wreak the havoc, imo
Very true. And if Parsons is not available at eleven, the guy who most reminds me of Ray Lewis this year is Nick Bolton, ILB Missouri. Bolton may still be there in the second round because he is a bit undersized, but this kid flies to the ball, is a ferocious tackler and has great burst and speed at the point of attack. He and Martinez would be a tackling tandem for the ages!
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In comment 15225905 JonC said:
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on the Edge. It's often easier for an athlete to be taught and absorb over playing inside, especially if he play contain with discipline and pointed downhill at the QB. Parsons has the physical package, and here's hoping him playing inside hid some of his potential. Nothing more multiple than a LB who can play inside and outside in multiple fronts.
Good thoughts, Jon. As a counter, which I cannot validate or dispute, a poster on that Sunday or another thread viewed footage of Parsons inside and said most of his sacks and TFL were blitzing through big holes in the opponent's OLs created by PSU's DL schemes. This poster's point was that it was less Parsons' ability than scheme that freed him to wreak havoc. fwiw. I've seen no film so can't comment. But I bet Graham/Judge have.
Ray Lewis (on the field) was a HOFer. Yet, he was given freedom to roam and wreak havoc because Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa kept him clean for years..Even great players oft times need help to wreak the havoc, imo
This is quite true. I remember reading about this conversation between Rams defensive coach Tom Caitlin and a coach of the Baltimore Colts circa 1970. Caitlin asked the Colts coach for analysis on players since they were no longer division rivals (the Colts were moving to the AFC). The Colts coach replied that they could have run the ball at Deacon Jones all the time but Merlin Olsen would be covering the running plays and sucker plays so that Jones could sack the quarterback.
It is certainly within the realm of possibility, based on the history of the NFL, that these players from 2019 and 2020 need more than 2 years to develop. I'm talking about rounds 1-3. Baker was a nightmare obviously. Now, you need to help the growth of these picks with good coaching and good free agents moves, which in 2018 and 2019, the Giants might have been the worst in the league at, on both accounts.
It is not a coincidence that once Shurmur was gone, drafting, free agency, and players all of a sudden seemed better.
My point is: posters can't just continue to ignore the fact that the very first year of DG's tenure is not unlike every single other 1st year of a new GM's tenure that we've seen with rebuilds, it is mostly patchwork stuff, trying to get rid of players, taking on dead money, and trying to draft well and build up the pipeline.
It is certainly within the realm of possibility, based on the history of the NFL, that these players from 2019 and 2020 need more than 2 years to develop. I'm talking about rounds 1-3. Baker was a nightmare obviously. Now, you need to help the growth of these picks with good coaching and good free agents moves, which in 2018 and 2019, the Giants might have been the worst in the league at, on both accounts.
It is not a coincidence that once Shurmur was gone, drafting, free agency, and players all of a sudden seemed better.
My point is: posters can't just continue to ignore the fact that the very first year of DG's tenure is not unlike every single other 1st year of a new GM's tenure that we've seen with rebuilds, it is mostly patchwork stuff, trying to get rid of players, taking on dead money, and trying to draft well and build up the pipeline.
On point.
Thomas had a better rookie season than Okudah, and he's a left tackle.
Thomas had a better rookie season than Okudah, and he's a left tackle.
Imagine what Thomas could have done on two good ankles...
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at #11 is a force pick. Or maybe even a panic pick.
Because we've seen it before with DG - he will hit the panic button on draft day.
Define panic. Barkley was not a panic pick; neither was Jones, nor Lawrence, nor Thomas. They were who he wanted at the spot he thought was appropriate. I would bet money that they were delivered to the commissioner in a cold, calm voice.
Jones was a classic panic pick. They needed a QB and Gettleman thought that if he didn't take Jones at #6 then two other teams would take him at #17.
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In comment 15225765 bw in dc said:
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at #11 is a force pick. Or maybe even a panic pick.
Because we've seen it before with DG - he will hit the panic button on draft day.
Define panic. Barkley was not a panic pick; neither was Jones, nor Lawrence, nor Thomas. They were who he wanted at the spot he thought was appropriate. I would bet money that they were delivered to the commissioner in a cold, calm voice.
Jones was a classic panic pick. They needed a QB and Gettleman thought that if he didn't take Jones at #6 then two other teams would take him at #17.
So? If you were high on a player and felt two other suitors might grab him before 17, you wouldn’t pull the trigger? Call it whatever you want. I ascribe to Polian’s and Brandt’s “credo,” that if you have a strong conviction on a guy YOU TAKE HIM WHEN YOU CAN.
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In comment 15225765 bw in dc said:
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at #11 is a force pick. Or maybe even a panic pick.
Because we've seen it before with DG - he will hit the panic button on draft day.
Define panic. Barkley was not a panic pick; neither was Jones, nor Lawrence, nor Thomas. They were who he wanted at the spot he thought was appropriate. I would bet money that they were delivered to the commissioner in a cold, calm voice.
Jones was a classic panic pick. They needed a QB and Gettleman thought that if he didn't take Jones at #6 then two other teams would take him at #17.
I think that there are enough reports to make DG's hypothesis credible. In that case, Jones went right where he should have gone.
Thomas had a better rookie season than Okudah, and he's a left tackle.
Thomas settled down nicely as the year progressed. Thought he played like a rookie LT would and finished the year well.
Isn't he just the type of player we want on this roster going forward?
Jones was a classic panic pick. They needed a QB and Gettleman thought that if he didn't take Jones at #6 then two other teams would take him at #17.
So? If you were high on a player and felt two other suitors might grab him before 17, you wouldn’t pull the trigger? Call it whatever you want. I ascribe to Polian’s and Brandt’s “credo,” that if you have a strong conviction on a guy YOU TAKE HIM WHEN YOU CAN.
That's a loaded question because I never thought Jones was first round talent. And I have a hard time believing Jones was 6th on their board.
Further, I have never bought the idea of the other "two mystery teams theory". No need to relitigate this, but I always viewed that as an excuse to justify the Jones selection because the pick had a fair amount of blowback.
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In comment 15225782 Bill L said:
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In comment 15225765 bw in dc said:
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at #11 is a force pick. Or maybe even a panic pick.
Because we've seen it before with DG - he will hit the panic button on draft day.
Define panic. Barkley was not a panic pick; neither was Jones, nor Lawrence, nor Thomas. They were who he wanted at the spot he thought was appropriate. I would bet money that they were delivered to the commissioner in a cold, calm voice.
Jones was a classic panic pick. They needed a QB and Gettleman thought that if he didn't take Jones at #6 then two other teams would take him at #17.
I think that there are enough reports to make DG's hypothesis credible. In that case, Jones went right where he should have gone.
Would suggest its the reverse. As discussed plenty of times before (and not interested in doing so again), reports do not point to those teams picking Jones before #17.
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In comment 15226030 bw in dc said:
Jones was a classic panic pick. They needed a QB and Gettleman thought that if he didn't take Jones at #6 then two other teams would take him at #17.
So? If you were high on a player and felt two other suitors might grab him before 17, you wouldn’t pull the trigger? Call it whatever you want. I ascribe to Polian’s and Brandt’s “credo,” that if you have a strong conviction on a guy YOU TAKE HIM WHEN YOU CAN.
That's a loaded question because I never thought Jones was first round talent. And I have a hard time believing Jones was 6th on their board.
Further, I have never bought the idea of the other "two mystery teams theory". No need to relitigate this, but I always viewed that as an excuse to justify the Jones selection because the pick had a fair amount of blowback.
I didn’t ask you about Jones per se, I asked you if you had a conviction on a player, albeit an unpopular one and you had decent intel that said he’d probably be gone by your 2nd pick (17) in the first round, would you pull the trigger? Not loaded at all..Since you play GM a lot, a simple answer would suffice and be welcomed.
It is certainly within the realm of possibility, based on the history of the NFL, that these players from 2019 and 2020 need more than 2 years to develop. I'm talking about rounds 1-3. Baker was a nightmare obviously. Now, you need to help the growth of these picks with good coaching and good free agents moves, which in 2018 and 2019, the Giants might have been the worst in the league at, on both accounts.
It is not a coincidence that once Shurmur was gone, drafting, free agency, and players all of a sudden seemed better.
My point is: posters can't just continue to ignore the fact that the very first year of DG's tenure is not unlike every single other 1st year of a new GM's tenure that we've seen with rebuilds, it is mostly patchwork stuff, trying to get rid of players, taking on dead money, and trying to draft well and build up the pipeline.
The irony is you haven't posted anything above I haven't posted a hundred times before. I don't know how you've missed it, you seem to only remember what doesn't agree with your take. I can also look at on field performance and tell you who is damned disappointing, in any draft year you prefer, and at the same time toss off the "time will tell" one liner as well. Remember, I also hear stuff in the background and try to sprinkle it in addition to what I see on gamedays as to who is struggling, acting a fool behind the scenes, and who is making a positive contribution.
I added plenty on Okudah a year ago, you're free to go find it. With my career and two year at old, I simply cannot invest the extra time and energy there. It's out there. As for his 2020 season, he struggled, no ifs ands or buts. He will also benefit when their coaching staff gets their act together and gives him a better opportunity to learn and prepare like a professional. Incomplete/D grade. For every Okudah that is wrong out of the chute, I give plenty of accurate perspective too. I thought Thomas improved and showed a good attitude, in addition to playing injured. Speaks well of him. He still showed some bad habits from college, that shit has got to get fixed.
If I see you post substance, I will comment accordingly. It's entirely possible I have not seen it all. I have seen some, interspersed with posters attacking you personally for not posting substance.
Don't lump me in with those who don't listen to you.
Ray Lewis (on the field) was a HOFer. Yet, he was given freedom to roam and wreak havoc because Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa kept him clean for years..Even great players oft times need help to wreak the havoc, imo
This is true but that freedom comes with the responsibility to make gap assignment calls before being free.
What I mean is, even Ray Lewis had a gap assignment on each play. If he decided that, pre-snap, he saw something that he wanted to exploit, he would have to make line/blitz calls to cover what he was going to be vacating. Granted, those things are fluid as many of the DTs likely have a two-way go, the "free backer" still needs to make sure he's not leaving a huge void in the front 7.
Can Parsons do this as a Rookie...who knows...
...but it's something that I'd like to see play out.
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Ray Lewis (on the field) was a HOFer. Yet, he was given freedom to roam and wreak havoc because Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa kept him clean for years..Even great players oft times need help to wreak the havoc, imo
This is true but that freedom comes with the responsibility to make gap assignment calls before being free.
What I mean is, even Ray Lewis had a gap assignment on each play. If he decided that, pre-snap, he saw something that he wanted to exploit, he would have to make line/blitz calls to cover what he was going to be vacating. Granted, those things are fluid as many of the DTs likely have a two-way go, the "free backer" still needs to make sure he's not leaving a huge void in the front 7.
Can Parsons do this as a Rookie...who knows...
...but it's something that I'd like to see play out.
Agree with points made
I'm trying to preach patience with the *new* Giants, not the DG picks the player and Shurmur takes it from there Giants
I'm trying to preach patience with the *new* Giants, not the DG picks the player and Shurmur takes it from there Giants
...I kid~
Reading the comments on BBI can be a bit like reading the comments on a FB post with a MAGA theme.
***FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY***
I'm trying to preach patience with the *new* Giants, not the DG picks the player and Shurmur takes it from there Giants
All you can do is try to lead a horse to water ... and then walk away.
I’m good with Jones, the real issue is did the Giants try to call Jacksonville and offer 17 and their 2nd round pick to move up to 7? Because the best thing that could have happened is make that trade, get Josh Allen and Jones. We wouldn’t have Dex and we already don’t have Baker.
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They had to pick him at 6. You do not wait 11 picks from 6-17 to draft your next franchise QB. If the Giants were willing to wait, Jones was not the guy. If they were drafting a QB in 2019 it was always going to be at 6. Those complaining that we should have waited until 17 just don't get it and probably never will.
I’m good with Jones, the real issue is did the Giants try to call Jacksonville and offer 17 and their 2nd round pick to move up to 7? Because the best thing that could have happened is make that trade, get Josh Allen and Jones. We wouldn’t have Dex and we already don’t have Baker.
Giants tried to move back up to take Josh Allen. Not sure they were calling JAX though. But JAX announced the pick before they could get any deal done.
Not certain why King would go fictitious after the fact if he wanted to ever be invited into anybody else's war room. And nobody said it was wrong to take Jones, just whether another team would have grabbed him in between 6 & 17.
I'm trying to preach patience with the *new* Giants, not the DG picks the player and Shurmur takes it from there Giants
Thomas was bad. He was horrendous early and ended up ok by the end of the year. He was the 3rd best OT of the top 4, potentially the worst. You’re chalking that up as a win? He still has a lot to prove.
Nothing is set in stone but the DG drafts to date have been mediocre at best. A lot of question marks/TBD’s but the overall team building strategy has been trash.
Why would anyone NOT believe Peter King? He's only a guy that been covering the league for nearly 35 years and is as dialed in as anybody. And King isn't a guy looking for clicks with tantalizing headlines and content.
Of course, if King did say Denver was hot for Jones I'm 100% sure everyone would cite him as totally credible.
JFC.
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believing anything Peter King says or believing that the Broncos belief in Locke somehow makes it wrong for the Giants to take Jones.
Why would anyone NOT believe Peter King? He's only a guy that been covering the league for nearly 35 years and is as dialed in as anybody. And King isn't a guy looking for clicks with tantalizing headlines and content.
Of course, if King did say Denver was hot for Jones I'm 100% sure everyone would cite him as totally credible.
JFC.
And you would say he was full of shit.
Instead, I would question Elway's QB judgment... ;)
I think King's full of it AND Elway's judgement is poor.
Their guy, by most accounts, was selected and their contingency plan was "Ereck Flowers."
Their guy, by most accounts, was selected and their contingency plan was "Ereck Flowers."
Denver panicked by taking Locke in the second round? And traded up to go do so when they saw he was still available? Makes no sense.
Suggest read the King article on Elway and Locke if want the facts on what went down.
Not just slides, but there also always seems to be one team that picks someone totally out of left field that doesn't belong among the top picks at all (a team thinking it's smarter than everyone else) and that pushes a quality player down.
I just hope that out of left field team this year isn't us.
Their guy, by most accounts, was selected and their contingency plan was "Ereck Flowers."
chicks is right. You don't seem to understand the circumstances around Denver acquiring Lock. Denver traded from #52 to #42 to grab Lock in the second round. And gave up a 4th and a 6th. That's a panic?
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...Locke is a perfect example of a panic pick.
Their guy, by most accounts, was selected and their contingency plan was "Ereck Flowers."
chicks is right. You don't seem to understand the circumstances around Denver acquiring Lock. Denver traded from #52 to #42 to grab Lock in the second round. And gave up a 4th and a 6th. That's a panic?
Yeah, doesn't make any sense. He is not understanding the situation nor how Denver moved around.