Assumptions: Parsons has passed the JJ litmus test and Davonta Smith is gone.
Disclaimer: As I’ve said ad nauseam, Whomever Judge decides to pick at 11, I’m all in with
So with that all said, let’s say it’s between Waddle, Parsons, Slater and one of the Edges.
Despite some limitations I’ve been reading about, I’m NOW hoping the pick is Parsons..He sounds like one of a kind player, who can be used by Graham in varying scenarios. I believe he makes an already good D, much better.
JJ saw first hand how well Belichick’s Ds have done relying mainly on his Interior D and the Secondary and quite versatile Linebacking. .Of course the genius of BB cannot be underscored enough. Still, we seemed to follow BB’s template last year with pretty good results once the players acclimated to Graham. Now we’ve added Jackson at corner and have a healthy McKinney at S..
Waddle, on paper would be a great add, but I’m convinced with a healthy Barkley (I don’t believe it’s a big IF, but that’s just an opinion) the addition of Rudolph and of course Golladay, we have armed DJ with nice receiving options. Too, many have mentioned here and in the media, that we can fortify the receiving corps in rounds 2 and 3, perhaps even later.
As to Slater, I’d be perfectly fine with what I’ve read he brings to the long term table, but i’ve also read/learned the 2nd and 3rd rounds can be tapped for good OL that could upgrade what we have now. It SEEMS, JJ is “set” on Peart at ORT, at least set in the ‘his job to lose’ mindset. Again, that’s what it seems from afar.
Since I only know what I’ve read and learned on here, which is my only basis for my collegiate preference, I’d love your ALMOST final opinions on this.
Again, as I mentioned in the thread title, I’m assuming the BPAs are in the same tier and close to one another in value according to the Giants..
What say you?
Quote:
In comment 15225498 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 15225474 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 15225468 JonC said:
Are you personally down on Waddle or is that your feeling about the team? I think he would be a tremendous get myself.
I haven't heard his name since very early on, suspect they would pounce on Smith but would go in a different direction if he's gone.
Actually, that we haven’t heard his name may be a reason to think they do like him if they are managing the information well. Who knows?
I'm by no means the final answer on these points, but the info is still getting out there and his name hasn't been mentioned much.
The info is getting out there but what info. The info they want you to hear. We can hope that’s what is getting out there.
Exactly. Sacking a QB is a legitimate skill. I struggle to think of any top sack artist who didn't show that skill at the college level. So I don't care how much potential Paye has, or how close he gets, I'm not betting that he finally becomes a real sack force at the pro level. NFW.
He is the remote thrower in this draft.
I guess what I'm saying with Paye is, if he's constantly in the backfield but only gets 8 sacks...we will be more than pleased
Quote:
unspectacular Edge. I’m not sure the Giants would draft a developmental Edge at #11. He just has not shown the ability to get to the QB consistently and at the next level do we really believe he’s going to shine? I might consider Paye in the later part of the first round, but they’ll be better value there at #11.
Exactly. Sacking a QB is a legitimate skill. I struggle to think of any top sack artist who didn't show that skill at the college level. So I don't care how much potential Paye has, or how close he gets, I'm not betting that he finally becomes a real sack force at the pro level. NFW.
He is the remote thrower in this draft.
Danielle Hunter, JPP?
I guess what I'm saying with Paye is, if he's constantly in the backfield but only gets 8 sacks...we will be more than pleased
I'm not advocating Paye as I like other players at 11 but he did also come close to leading the country in pressures according to Sy.
Slater is a safe bet, plays at a position of need, has positional versatility. He's not the most exciting choice but he's arguably the best choice the Giants can make in this draft considering the massive question marks on the OL.
Waddle is very exciting and he does deserve the Tyreek Hill comparisons. But at the same time, I question whether he is a true #1 on the next level or a really explosive #2/3 type. Plus he has injury concerns. I think I'd prefer WR in round 2/3 than Waddle in round 1.
Parsons is intriguing as well, but it feels like he's a guy who you're going to have to scheme a specific way for him to make an impact. He can be a bigtime playmaker on the next level or he could be a JAG. I feel safer with the other guys I mentioned.
A. I didn't want to pay LW this year.
B. And it took LW about six years to break double digit sacks in the NFL. I don't think he ever did it at USC...?
Exactly. Sacking a QB is a legitimate skill. I struggle to think of any top sack artist who didn't show that skill at the college level. So I don't care how much potential Paye has, or how close he gets, I'm not betting that he finally becomes a real sack force at the pro level. NFW.
He is the remote thrower in this draft.
Danielle Hunter, JPP?
Hunter was a third round investment. So he's a project that worked out. But that's a fair point. I didn't see his production coming. Again, there was a reason he went in the third round.
JPP was killing it at the JUCO level before he played one season at S. Florida.
I honestly do not see Paye as an ideal fit in the defense as an edge guy. Phillips yes, Ojulari yes, Oweh yes, Tryon yes, Odenyinbo yes, but I think Parsons is a guy that needs to be looked at as a potentional target and candidate to move outside and be that guy. Spencer knows his skill set and is you want a snap shot of how quick he is go to his pro day and watch the bag drills. His feet hips and and hands are insane. He actually said he loves playing outside.
Shaq Barrett is shorter and slower than Parsons BTW but 5 lbs heavier.
I guess what I'm saying with Paye is, if he's constantly in the backfield but only gets 8 sacks...we will be more than pleased
I tend to agree with this sentiment on hits/pressures especially from a DT (versus a DE).
LW's recent sacks totals can range as low as 0.5 and as high as 11.5 so not sure too much confidence should be put on either boundary going forward although he got his NYG contract off the latter.
We're going into territory here that doesn't apply. LW isn't a true edge guy. He's more of a hybrid inside/outside. So I don't think any comparison here applies for what we need - a 3-4 edge candidate, and more, IMV, in the standup role.
I just don't see Paye as an elite pass rusher. Which is what we should be aspiring to if we made that bet at #11. Hell, I don't think there are any surefire elite pass rushers in this draft. There are mostly projects. I really like Ojulari, and I would draft him in the first round, but not at #11.
Parsons
When I flip and use the results to decided who get, I am truly happy with either.
Slater: I will not be upset but I do like some of the guards mocked early in the second just as much if not more. I like BIG guards.
Edge. None of them are worth close to 11. Honestly, I think in a normal year for edge all of these are round 2 talents. Just NO!
[quote] but the tea leaves seem to be Smith or they're going Edge. I'd pick Parsons or one of the CBs, or pick Paye if they're hellbent on Edge at #11. [/quote
I think that I would cry if they picked Paye before 15 (or, much better, lower).
I think the choice for NYG will be Parson, one of the corners or Paye. I would love Parsons, be OK with one of the corners and I would throw my remote for Paye at 11.
[quote] but the tea leaves seem to be Smith or they're going Edge. I'd pick Parsons or one of the CBs, or pick Paye if they're hellbent on Edge at #11. [/quote
I think that I would cry if they picked Paye before 15 (or, much better, lower).
I get it, but if there's no trade down to be had, taking your Edge at #11 is better than not at all.
do you think they factor in who they like and who they would hate to release when they pick, even if the pick is an upgrade? Because, if the edge they get is merely good, don't forget that we've got a million guys in that spot already, so they are definitely going to have to kick someone.
Because we've seen it before with DG - he will hit the panic button on draft day.
Because we've seen it before with DG - he will hit the panic button on draft day.
Define panic. Barkley was not a panic pick; neither was Jones, nor Lawrence, nor Thomas. They were who he wanted at the spot he thought was appropriate. I would bet money that they were delivered to the commissioner in a cold, calm voice.
Quote:
In comment 15225603 JonC said:
[quote] but the tea leaves seem to be Smith or they're going Edge. I'd pick Parsons or one of the CBs, or pick Paye if they're hellbent on Edge at #11. [/quote
I think that I would cry if they picked Paye before 15 (or, much better, lower).
I get it, but if there's no trade down to be had, taking your Edge at #11 is better than not at all.
Grabbing just for an Edge at #11 just to ensure you don't miss one is not optimal imv. If they make the grade and are in your top tier, then fine.
Quote:
In comment 15225739 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 15225603 JonC said:
[quote] but the tea leaves seem to be Smith or they're going Edge. I'd pick Parsons or one of the CBs, or pick Paye if they're hellbent on Edge at #11. [/quote
I think that I would cry if they picked Paye before 15 (or, much better, lower).
I get it, but if there's no trade down to be had, taking your Edge at #11 is better than not at all.
Grabbing just for an Edge at #11 just to ensure you don't miss one is not optimal imv. If they make the grade and are in your top tier, then fine.
We'll likely not know one way or the other. They grabbed Jones and Thomas the same way, imv.
Quote:
at #11 is a force pick. Or maybe even a panic pick.
Because we've seen it before with DG - he will hit the panic button on draft day.
Define panic. Barkley was not a panic pick; neither was Jones, nor Lawrence, nor Thomas. They were who he wanted at the spot he thought was appropriate. I would bet money that they were delivered to the commissioner in a cold, calm voice.
Don't think any of these should be defined as panic picks, outside of Jones at 6 versus 17.
I get it, but if there's no trade down to be had, taking your Edge at #11 is better than not at all.
Grabbing just for an Edge at #11 just to ensure you don't miss one is not optimal imv. If they make the grade and are in your top tier, then fine.
We'll likely not know one way or the other. They grabbed Jones and Thomas the same way, imv.
Yes on Jones. Thomas I would think much lesser so. Either way, doing it again doesn't make it a better outcome.
Quote:
I get it, but if there's no trade down to be had, taking your Edge at #11 is better than not at all.
Grabbing just for an Edge at #11 just to ensure you don't miss one is not optimal imv. If they make the grade and are in your top tier, then fine.
We'll likely not know one way or the other. They grabbed Jones and Thomas the same way, imv.
Yes on Jones. Thomas I would think much lesser so. Either way, doing it again doesn't make it a better outcome.
Not my point, just pointing our their tendency.
I'm an optimizer by nature, the way they draft drives me nuts.
Quote:
In comment 15225788 JonC said:
Quote:
I get it, but if there's no trade down to be had, taking your Edge at #11 is better than not at all.
Grabbing just for an Edge at #11 just to ensure you don't miss one is not optimal imv. If they make the grade and are in your top tier, then fine.
We'll likely not know one way or the other. They grabbed Jones and Thomas the same way, imv.
Yes on Jones. Thomas I would think much lesser so. Either way, doing it again doesn't make it a better outcome.
Not my point, just pointing our their tendency.
I'm an optimizer by nature, the way they draft drives me nuts.
Jon
in this case based on what we are hearing , I see:
Tier 1: Sewell,Smith,Chase,Pitts (order unknown but this is likely close to their top row)
Tier 2: Paye,Ojulari,Waddle,Slater,Surtain,Horn, Phillips? (Order also not fully known but it seems like Paye and Oju may be top of tier 2.)
So if no one makes it out of tier 1 it looks like Paye /Oju with the Edge going to Paye.
*In this case would you have an issue with this approach? I would agree that Horn or Surtain should probably be a higher grade (or at least top of tier 2). However with 30MM invested in ou top 2 CBs AND a promising slot CB in Holmes , I'd be less inclined for the CB. Parsons not as much due to the character concerns (on talent alone absolutely)
My choice was Herbert, but knowing the Giants already picked their QB, I was looking BPA according to my board. Thomas was roughly #10. Time will tell, but relying on "young guys need time" is not a fully compelling argument. You might as well move onto other topics in that case.
I mean, if I did that, I would have Josh Allen (the LB) and Herbert.
Same. So, for the 29th, suppose you look at the 2022 WR, edge, OG in terms of not just depth, but top-end quality. Does that change the 2021 calculus? For me (admittedly not knowing anything) I just can't believe the top-end WR group (AL) would be better next year.
Rookie Cornerbacks seldom hold up on a consistent basis in year one. Steep learning curve going head-to-head with so many different yet talented WRs on a weekly basis.
Quote:
For example, where is the likely depth in next year's draft? I'm sure that's hard to predict (as would be the slot we are picking) but could this also help to inform this year's best pick at #11?
I mean, if I did that, I would have Josh Allen (the LB) and Herbert.
This is precisely why you don't reach for need. NFL teams are simply price takers and must take what the board gives. Nothing more nothing less. The fact that we have a need does not make a prospect talented. Talent wins championships. Selecting players based on need, character or work ethic is akin to paving the path to hell with good intentions.
ColHowPepper : 4/18/2021 1:39 pm : link : reply
In comment 15224639 cosmicj said:
Quote:
...Parsons being moved to ILB at Penn State implies that this is his best position. Edge pass rushers are much rarer in the college game, too. So he’s an ILB. I don’t necessarily see that as a problem. Was Luke Kuechly overdrafted? No.
cosmicj, to flesh out your line of thinking, but on the opposite tack, is rjanyg's comment:
Quote:
He played off ball LB at PSU, but what most don’t know is he was recruited as an DE/OLB. He moved to LB out of need for the team. He has even said in interviews that he is very comfortable playing outside since he was a pass rusher in high school. Also played RB in high school, go check out some YouTube video of that.
For those familiar with PSU last year, how good was its talent at OLB? In other words, if they were strong at the OLB position, it tends to validate ryanyg's thought; if not, then maybe Parsons was moved due to lack of fit outside.
1. Parsons
2. Chase
3. Sewell
4. Surtain
5. Horn
6. Slater
7. Smith
8. Waddle
You could argue that for this year, OL is a higher need than CB but over the next five years, CB is probably just as important given the current situation of players under contract.
So while these are listed in the order of my preferences, good arguments could be made for any of these players at eleven. If the Giants want to address need beyond the players here, then they should trade down for a sensible package of picks.
100% agree. This is why I feel that with Coach Spencer knowing Parsons and having recruited him it makes me think if he is there at 11 he is the pick. You have to take all things into consideration. If we talk about character you must talk about talent, scheme fit, versatility, measurables,athletic ability, pro day numbers and most important the game video.
I am as guilty of trying to put players in a box and saying they are a MLB or a WLB or a SLB etc. The reality is the NFL has changed and NY Giant runs a multiple front 3-4 Hybrid defense which will be in Nickel 50 percent of the game. 4 LB can be on the field all the time in base 3-4 alignment or nickel. It is not until the dime package comes in that you have only 1 ILB on the field. Parsons is a 3 down LB regardless of where he lines up.