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NFT: Costs of Home Improvements

thomasa510 : 4/19/2021 2:45 pm
Reposted as NFR

I’m on Long Island and looking to have some work done on my house (front door, windows, and siding).

The quotes we are getting are about 50% higher than less than a year ago and 2x as much as the work is worth.

I understand covid disrupted many supply chains and there is huge demand for home improvement work.

Have you experienced something similar? I’m of a mind to wait and hope prices get back to normal as an $8-10k front door doesn’t make sense to me, but maybe inflation is just here and is showing up in home improvement prices, the stock market, and Bitcoin first.

I do get the material costs are higher but that seems to be a temporary thing and many home improvement personnel are really taking advantage. Do you all expect prices to revert to the old norm?
I just went through an extensive quoting process to have my  
aimrocky : 4/19/2021 2:53 pm : link
windows (26) and front door done. What I found is that if you stay away from Andersen/Pella, the pricing isn't eye popping.

I went with Harvey Classic vinyl replacement windows and a Masonite 36" fiberglass door with side panels. Material was about $8500 for the windows and $2400 for the door. Labor was much less than I expected, but I have one guy doing the job, who's not bringing in a crew. That will keep the costs down. BTW - I'm in CT.

My quote with Pella was over $30k, so more than double where I landed.
Raw Materials are crazy high right now  
Existenz : 4/19/2021 3:11 pm : link
and it looks like it's going to stay that way for a bit. Wife works for a local builder and prices on something like 2/4's are almost 4 times what they were a year ago.
......  
CoughlinHandsonHips : 4/19/2021 3:16 pm : link
Home improvement/building materials have been +60% month over month since last May. That number is even with all the disruptions in the supply chain. If manufacturers had the product to ship, it would've been much higher.

This Covid year has been bonkers in this category. I'm not surprised costs are sky rocketing.

I saw something that  
GiantsLaw : 4/19/2021 3:18 pm : link
the cost of lumber has spiked recently. IDK why
I’m getting  
bubba0825 : 4/19/2021 3:22 pm : link
1600 sq ft of pavers done around a pool and it’s costing me 28k. Seemed about 8k more than I had in my head
RE: I’m getting  
eric2425ny : 4/19/2021 3:37 pm : link
In comment 15226031 bubba0825 said:
Quote:
1600 sq ft of pavers done around a pool and it’s costing me 28k. Seemed about 8k more than I had in my head


That’s a lot of pavers man. Seems about right. We have a 220 square foot patio off the back of our house that was about 5k three years ago. It has a retaining wall though so that jacked the price up about 1k. So if you multiply what we paid by 7 it would be the same as what you are paying. I hope you are hiring out the annual poly metric sanding process. That’s a lot of sand lol.
RE: I’m getting  
UConn4523 : 4/19/2021 3:40 pm : link
In comment 15226031 bubba0825 said:
Quote:
1600 sq ft of pavers done around a pool and it’s costing me 28k. Seemed about 8k more than I had in my head


That's actually fair market price. I'm getting a 700 sq ft patio installed with pavers and I'm at $18 per sq ft which is where you are at. I got a quote this time last year for the same sq ft, same price. Pricing hasn't hit that market, it just might be hard to find the color you want due to the increased demand.

Building a wood deck? Forget about it.
RE: I just went through an extensive quoting process to have my  
UConn4523 : 4/19/2021 3:45 pm : link
In comment 15226006 aimrocky said:
Quote:
windows (26) and front door done. What I found is that if you stay away from Andersen/Pella, the pricing isn't eye popping.

I went with Harvey Classic vinyl replacement windows and a Masonite 36" fiberglass door with side panels. Material was about $8500 for the windows and $2400 for the door. Labor was much less than I expected, but I have one guy doing the job, who's not bringing in a crew. That will keep the costs down. BTW - I'm in CT.

My quote with Pella was over $30k, so more than double where I landed.


Curious what you think of Harvey after the install, glad to see you are supporting CT!

Andersen and kick rocks, simply not worth it unless you NEED to have their look and/or you are in a wealthy area. You won't get the return on the investment and functionally they are pretty much the same (you won't see a difference in energy costs, for example).

I did about 6 Pella windows in my last house and they were fine. Could have picked any others and likely had the same experience along with the savings.
RE: RE: I’m getting  
bubba0825 : 4/19/2021 3:49 pm : link
In comment 15226051 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15226031 bubba0825 said:


Quote:


1600 sq ft of pavers done around a pool and it’s costing me 28k. Seemed about 8k more than I had in my head



That's actually fair market price. I'm getting a 700 sq ft patio installed with pavers and I'm at $18 per sq ft which is where you are at. I got a quote this time last year for the same sq ft, same price. Pricing hasn't hit that market, it just might be hard to find the color you want due to the increased demand.

Building a wood deck? Forget about it.


I’m getting nico lock pavers, my guy told me Cambridge is tough to get right now. I assume they are close in price
They'll go back down a little  
rasbutant : 4/19/2021 5:56 pm : link
but just like when the price of Gas spiked and contractors raised their prices to adjust...when the price of Gas went back down they kept their prices just as high. There is no doubt that some things needed to go up, but their are also people and companies taking advantage as they can just point to something to blame it on.
Link - ( New Window )
Oh and there is a huge demand right now  
rasbutant : 4/19/2021 5:58 pm : link
People are spending more time at home, plus the stimulus money.
Interesting topic from an investment perspective  
glowrider : 4/19/2021 6:09 pm : link
Check the stock charts for Interfor, Weyerhauser and West Fraser. Just ridiculous returns over the last year for Big Wood.
RE: Interesting topic from an investment perspective  
thomasa510 : 4/19/2021 7:02 pm : link
In comment 15226160 glowrider said:
Quote:
Check the stock charts for Interfor, Weyerhauser and West Fraser. Just ridiculous returns over the last year for Big Wood.


I’m invested in Weyerhaeuser and have been for long before covid for diversification. The stock is only up 20-25% since pre-covid; not bad but not out of line for the market.
The price of everything has gone up.  
Giant John : 4/19/2021 7:47 pm : link
Where have you been? Inflation is out of control. Now just wait until the 2 trillion trickles in.
RE: RE: I just went through an extensive quoting process to have my  
aimrocky : 4/19/2021 7:56 pm : link
In comment 15226059 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15226006 aimrocky said:


Quote:


windows (26) and front door done. What I found is that if you stay away from Andersen/Pella, the pricing isn't eye popping.

I went with Harvey Classic vinyl replacement windows and a Masonite 36" fiberglass door with side panels. Material was about $8500 for the windows and $2400 for the door. Labor was much less than I expected, but I have one guy doing the job, who's not bringing in a crew. That will keep the costs down. BTW - I'm in CT.

My quote with Pella was over $30k, so more than double where I landed.



Curious what you think of Harvey after the install, glad to see you are supporting CT!

Andersen and kick rocks, simply not worth it unless you NEED to have their look and/or you are in a wealthy area. You won't get the return on the investment and functionally they are pretty much the same (you won't see a difference in energy costs, for example).

I did about 6 Pella windows in my last house and they were fine. Could have picked any others and likely had the same experience along with the savings.


I’ll keep you posted. Thanks for the recommendation on Harvey! Their energy ratings are top notch and my contractor has a high opinion of them.

I also had Harvey quote the front door, but that came in at $5k. Masonite compared pretty closely to the therma door (Harvey’s brand) at half the price. I saw both in person and the therma door felt heavier, but not worth double the price.
RE: The price of everything has gone up.  
thomasa510 : 4/19/2021 7:59 pm : link
In comment 15226279 Giant John said:
Quote:
Where have you been? Inflation is out of control. Now just wait until the 2 trillion trickles in.


Well, 20% or so is what most items have increased. Prices on home improvements are about 60% higher this year from last. Kind of nuts
$5k for a door is nuts  
UConn4523 : 4/19/2021 8:09 pm : link
I’d have to look ours up but I think it was Thermatru. Right around $1,500 + whatever the install was which couldn’t have been too much so maybe $2k all in.
higher cost of all materials  
Alan W : 4/19/2021 8:17 pm : link
reported by my son in Sedona AZ
Thermatru is Harvey’s door  
aimrocky : 4/19/2021 8:18 pm : link
That was the brand that came in at $5k, but my wife wanted glass panels inside the door. I think that drove the price up, but I also think the Harvey dealer screwed our quote up. The price in their catalog was around $2k. I pressed the salesman but couldn’t get a straight answer so I moved on.
RE: $5k for a door is nuts  
UConn4523 : 4/19/2021 8:18 pm : link
In comment 15226298 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
I’d have to look ours up but I think it was Thermatru. Right around $1,500 + whatever the install was which couldn’t have been too much so maybe $2k all in.


This is the one. Didn’t know you can paint fiberglass which is what we did so forego the color unless you want it to look like wood.
Thermatru - ( New Window )
We are just seeing the start of this  
PA Aggie : 4/19/2021 8:53 pm : link
(I do kitchens and bathrooms, cabinet making is my specialty.)

Obviously Covid started it. It interrupted supply in many home improvement industries at the same time demand (people sitting around their homes looking what to improve) started to rise. Demand kept going up, and supply could not, and still has not, kept up. Economics 101...prices rise.

The softwoods (Doug Fir, spruce, etc.) industry got hit the earliest and hardest because we get so much from Canada which is still fairly tightly shut. Hardwoods (cherry, oaks, some maples) are mostly locally sourced so they did not start rising until recently. I have seen a 30-50% rise in prices but nowhere near 3-4X the rise in softwoods.

Other factors: Texas freeze...chemical industry got whacked for a while, that is where so many adhesives and other chemical based products originate. Next, Suez Canal blockage throws a wrench into worldwide shipping. Last, corporations are bracing for major tax increases due to our gov't "taking care of us".

We have faced a perfect storm. Some say prices will come back down. I am not that optimistic, I think companies are going to keep prices high to make as much money to brace for future while demand is still there. My proposals now are good for one week, some places I have heard say their prices are good for 24 hours.

As for home renovation prices, the only advice is to get multiple estimates. Get 5 guys' names because only 3 will probably call you back. Someone who is fair, won't gouge you on materials. Them marking up materials 20-25% is normal. If they are very reluctant to break a price down to some degree (don't ask for a line by line), they are probably pulling a fast one on you. There will be a lot of opportunists out there like after Hurricane Sandy. Buyer beware. Good luck.
Timing is another thing  
PA Aggie : 4/20/2021 8:21 am : link
If you do find someone to do the work, their time frames may be bananas. Certain materials (windows, doors) may take 6 months to get. If you are giving a deposit (likely, because he has to purchase these items), I would prepare a basic document agreeing to the purchase, and expected work later on. A lot can happen in 6+ months to you or him. I would hate to see someone drop $10k-20k on materials, then have the contractor get sick, or something else. Maybe you purchase the materials and have it shipped to you so if something happens, at least YOU have the materials. If you give a deposit, and he gets the materials, then something happens, good luck sorting that out. If a GC refuses to sign a simple and fair document prepared by a homeowner, I would be careful of him.
RE: We are just seeing the start of this  
EricJ : 4/20/2021 8:35 am : link
In comment 15226330 PA Aggie said:
Quote:
My proposals now are good for one week, some places I have heard say their prices are good for 24 hours.


I am involved in some large construction projects (50+ unit buildings) and our lumber suppliers are also not locking in pricing more than 7 days out. We have one project where we already ordered and paid for delivery of lumber for 4 of the 6 buildings on the property. Knowing we will not need the rest of it until the end of the summer... we are rolling the dice on that pricing.

Last summer, we had news from roofing contractors who were having to go to more than 100 miles to find materials.

Windows are delayed and LVT flooring just went up by about 15-20%

Here is the one good thing that is coming from this. On new projects we are building in an additional 20-25% on building costs. So, by the time they get started we could be sitting in a good spot if/when pricing comes down.
RE: RE: Interesting topic from an investment perspective  
glowrider : 4/20/2021 9:41 am : link
In comment 15226225 thomasa510 said:
Quote:
In comment 15226160 glowrider said:


Quote:


Check the stock charts for Interfor, Weyerhauser and West Fraser. Just ridiculous returns over the last year for Big Wood.



I’m invested in Weyerhaeuser and have been for long before covid for diversification. The stock is only up 20-25% since pre-covid; not bad but not out of line for the market.


WY traded at 16.95 on Mar 1, 2020, 19.61 on 4/20/2020 and trades today at 38.92. Where are you coming up with 20-25%??
RE: RE: RE: Interesting topic from an investment perspective  
thomasa510 : 4/20/2021 9:48 am : link
In comment 15226625 glowrider said:
Quote:
In comment 15226225 thomasa510 said:


Quote:


In comment 15226160 glowrider said:


Quote:


Check the stock charts for Interfor, Weyerhauser and West Fraser. Just ridiculous returns over the last year for Big Wood.



I’m invested in Weyerhaeuser and have been for long before covid for diversification. The stock is only up 20-25% since pre-covid; not bad but not out of line for the market.



WY traded at 16.95 on Mar 1, 2020, 19.61 on 4/20/2020 and trades today at 38.92. Where are you coming up with 20-25%??


I’m looking pre-covid drop. It was in the $30s before then and now it’s just bounced back around 25-30% above where it started before the panic selling.

Compare that to zoom, Tesla, and some of the other high flyers and it doesn’t seem crazy to me
Even if you take the $30 it touched from Dec/Jan 20  
glowrider : 4/20/2021 9:54 am : link
That’s still 30% - not bad, and not financial advice. Just sharing where big money is being made in this sector.
Yeah  
thomasa510 : 4/20/2021 10:02 am : link
Yeah don’t disagree and am happy even though they dropped their dividend in half in early covid stages. Since they are a REIT they will have to pay out eventually this year.

As noted I hold WY as a long term play for diversification and as an inflation hedge in my IRA.
There was an article on Bloomberg  
bhill410 : 4/20/2021 1:36 pm : link
A couple weeks ago on lumber. Seemed like a lot of mills closed in 2018 due to no demand so the ability to generate materials in this boom has been cramped but the biggest issue is that they cannot find labor for actually getting the trees down. Apparently it’s not a super popular profession in best of time and with the enhanced unemployment benefits after many of the workers were let go in early covid has really been problematic.
Everything construction is going up 20-30%  
BH28 : 4/20/2021 2:42 pm : link
Multiple factors

1. COVID import issues
2. Blackout in Texas knocked PVC suppliers out so PVC and electrical conduits are going up
3. Computer chip shortage
4. Concrete due to fly ash shortage
5. The only thing that hasn't been pinched is asphalt prices. Most aggregates are sourced locally and the oil binder is relatively cheap
we are also in a nationwide  
UConn4523 : 4/20/2021 2:43 pm : link
worker shortage in the construction industry. That means costs on everything rise. Low end has it at 200k workers short, high end 450k workers short.

Get your kids in trade school!
RE: we are also in a nationwide  
thomasa510 : 4/20/2021 5:38 pm : link
In comment 15227133 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
worker shortage in the construction industry. That means costs on everything rise. Low end has it at 200k workers short, high end 450k workers short.

Get your kids in trade school!


I say this all the time. There is such an market for an individual who can install kitchen cabinets and do renovations. So many contractors don’t show up timely, offer decent customer service.

It’s a much more lucrative career path than IT or something similar if done welll, imho. And you can’t offshore it
Yesterday I was looking at my bill  
UConn4523 : 4/20/2021 7:05 pm : link
to find the price of the door and the guy who framed my house did about 2 weeks of work and charged almost $20k - all labor, lumber was separate. He’s booked year round and works mostly solo. Doing just simple conservative math on him working 40 weeks per year and you can see how lucrative his craft is.

I’m in construction tech and AI will help but not replace physical labor. Learning a trade is future proof.
Our back deck is rotting and needs to be replaced  
Greg from LI : 4/20/2021 10:17 pm : link
It's just a small 9x9 deck....and yet the best quote I've gotten is $6800. Madness.
RE: Our back deck is rotting and needs to be replaced  
UConn4523 : 4/20/2021 10:35 pm : link
In comment 15227695 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
It's just a small 9x9 deck....and yet the best quote I've gotten is $6800. Madness.


That’s nuts. I was reading an article earlier that decks cost 75% more now than they did less than a year ago. Basically jumped from $40/ sq ft to almost $75/ sq ft. Pavers you’ll be at $20/ sq foot - something to consider if it’s only a few steps down to ground level.
RE: RE: Our back deck is rotting and needs to be replaced  
PA Aggie : 4/21/2021 7:33 am : link
In comment 15227707 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 15227695 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


It's just a small 9x9 deck....and yet the best quote I've gotten is $6800. Madness.



That’s nuts. I was reading an article earlier that decks cost 75% more now than they did less than a year ago. Basically jumped from $40/ sq ft to almost $75/ sq ft. Pavers you’ll be at $20/ sq foot - something to consider if it’s only a few steps down to ground level.


This is a good suggestion. Not a fan of decks, too much maintenance. Pavers, if installed well (good base, level, drainage) are pretty good. They will fade a bit over time, you may get a few weeds in the joints, but virtually maintenance free.
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