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Let's agree on a definition for "QB Hell"

NoPeanutz : 4/20/2021 9:47 am
since it gets thrown around here pretty casually to serve everyone's own purposes as they see fit, often in contradictory contexts.
I always assumed it meant that a team had cut bait with a QB that in which they invested assets (cash or picks), and now is spinning their wheels trying to find a new competent QB, a task in which they are hamstrung bc they no longer have the cash or picks. Just having a shitty QB, or a veteran journeyman at QB, does not equal "qb hell."

Case studies:
By this definition, the Giants ARE NOT in QB hell, as many describe. They drafted a QB they believed in, and have not abandoned that QB. They are still investing in his career.

When the Jets picked Darnold, and played Darnold, they were not in QB Hell. Now that they have abandoned Darnold, and will use a top pick on another unproven QB commodity who will be forced to play on the same offense as Darnold, and as a result will likely suck, they may be entering QB hell (if they cannot dig out of their suck in the next two years).

IMO, it is cutting bait prematurely on quarterbacks that leads to QB Hell- such as when DC jumped from Rex to Bob to Kirk to Dwayne and now to Fitz (for max one year) and then...?

The Cowboys are not in QB Hell, since they invested in their starting QB they believe in. Now if Dak bombs, and they have to cut him loose after 2 years, the QB Hell clock would start.
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its the outlier but when it happens  
UConn4523 : 4/20/2021 11:29 am : link
its because they are that much better than the rest and/or are part of a team that much better than the rest.

I wouldn't compare elite QB's the the field, I'd compare them to each other. When you do the question becomes how many more titles will Mahomes/Wilson/Rodgers/whoever is next get over that next tier of very good but not great.

Take a look at SB 9 to SB 28 - 3 QB's won 2 or more, with 2 of them winning 4. and then it leads into Elway then Brady and so on. We all stopped comparing those guys to the field a long time ago, its no different now. Comparing a Mahomes to a Kirk Cousins is as irrelevant as it gets.
Good find Robbie + Trueblue  
Eric on Li : 4/20/2021 11:31 am : link
Minnesota, Chicago, and SF all seem to hit that definition. Raiders and Carr too. I think Tennessee with Tannehill will head that direction as well. Atlanta has a decision to make at #4 and obviously the Niners have already made there's and moved up to #3.

As it relates to the NYG the answer to question is simply whether you've entirely given up on Jones after 2 years or not. Some have and seem intent on reminding us daily that they knew he was a mistake the day he was picked. I don't think Judge has however and that's the only opinion that matters.
RE: RE: Gettleman defined it when he said it but people chose to  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/20/2021 11:31 am : link
In comment 15226781 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
In comment 15226669 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


not listen.



Correct! And here’s what he said:




Quote:


“If you take a guy just to take a guy, especially at the quarterback position, and he fails, you set yourself back five years,” Gettleman said per Dan Duggan of NJ.com. “You set yourself back five years because there are teams that are in what I call quarterback hell. They’ve got quality defense, they’ve got a good special teams, and they’re going 7-9, 8-8, 9-7. And now if there is a legitimate guy, they’ve got to trade up and give away the farm to get the guy.”



For what it’s worth...

This is it.

QB Hell is building your team around a young QB who never gets there, and you're left with a team that is too good to put you in position to grab the next batch of franchise QB hopefuls, and not good enough to win a championship with the existing QB who didn't reach expectations.

It's just about risk management, IMO. Obviously, any GM is going to keep building around his QB, so that comes without fault. But what DG was getting at, IMO, is that if you get all the other things right but whiff on the QB, you might find yourself worse off than you were before you took the QB who busted. Because now you have a roster that is ready to win but is missing the core piece, and you have to mortgage the future to go get that QB, whatever price that may be.

That's the hell.
......  
CoughlinHandsonHips : 4/20/2021 11:31 am : link
I feel the recent Vikings team define QB Hell.

Very talented roster outside of QB. This roster keeps them competitive - but lack of elite QB keeps them from pushing to the next level.

Their record keeps them out of the draft range to nab one of the projected franchise QBs at the top of the draft, forcing them to overspend in Free Agency on the likes of Kurt Cousins.
RE: ......  
Eric on Li : 4/20/2021 11:42 am : link
In comment 15226788 CoughlinHandsonHips said:
Quote:
I feel the recent Vikings team define QB Hell.

Very talented roster outside of QB. This roster keeps them competitive - but lack of elite QB keeps them from pushing to the next level.

Their record keeps them out of the draft range to nab one of the projected franchise QBs at the top of the draft, forcing them to overspend in Free Agency on the likes of Kurt Cousins.


Bears too. They've had a really good defense with Mack/Hicks/secondary. Had Robinson and some decent enough skill players. But Trubisky/Foles are both highly flawed.
RE: Interesting...  
DonQuixote : 4/20/2021 11:43 am : link
In comment 15226651 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
I would add teams that have a great roster, but can't get a QB to get them over the hump.

the 49ers are in QB hell
the COlts are in QB hell
the Bears are in QB hell
the Rams think they got out of QB hell

I think these teams have roster that can compete for a SUper Bowl - but won't win one b/c they are one position away...unfortunately it's the QB.


There you go. Bears are the epitome, not good enough to win and not bad enough to draft another. Not seeing how this is difficult for some.
RE: Rodgers and Brees....  
Jimmy Googs : 4/20/2021 12:05 pm : link
In comment 15226780 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
who many consider to the end all be all scoregasm QB's that seem to represent what people think a franchise QB should be, only have won each. And they only made it to one as well.


Imv, the requirement to be a Franchise QB isn't how many Super Bowls did they win, but moreso do they give their team a credible opportunity to reach them each season.

Rodgers and Brees most certainly do/did...
RE: The Jets are not in QB hell, they have the second pick  
Johnny5 : 4/20/2021 12:05 pm : link
In comment 15226653 cjac said:
Quote:
they'll get a top QB

My definition of QB is that you have an average to below average QB that gets you 7 to 9 wins every season and you're drafting from 12-20 and dont have a shot at one of the top guys in the draft year after year.

So teams like WFT right now, QB hell. Philly, maybe

Denver is a good example I think

Pittsburgh is on the brink of QB hell when Big Ben decides to become a full time rapist

I would argue that Jets are absolutely in QB hell, they just have an opportunity to correct it if... IF... the QB they draft is the goods and they can build their team. Which is asking a LOT at this point based on the talent on that team currently.
RE: QB hell is a mediocre QB who wins 7-9 games a year  
giants#1 : 4/20/2021 12:07 pm : link
In comment 15226710 WillieYoung said:
Quote:
Pretty good team except at QB. Never a high enough draft pick to get a QB. The hell may not be as hot as it used to be because there are 3-5 guys coming out every year who may be franchise QBs, so it's now more possible to get one with a mid-round pick.


I think it's harder to find a QB now. Isn't Mahomes the only QB drafted since 2009 to win a SB?
RE: RE: The Jets are not in QB hell, they have the second pick  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/20/2021 12:08 pm : link
In comment 15226856 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 15226653 cjac said:


Quote:


they'll get a top QB

My definition of QB is that you have an average to below average QB that gets you 7 to 9 wins every season and you're drafting from 12-20 and dont have a shot at one of the top guys in the draft year after year.

So teams like WFT right now, QB hell. Philly, maybe

Denver is a good example I think

Pittsburgh is on the brink of QB hell when Big Ben decides to become a full time rapist


I would argue that Jets are absolutely in QB hell, they just have an opportunity to correct it if... IF... the QB they draft is the goods and they can build their team. Which is asking a LOT at this point based on the talent on that team currently.

By DG's definition, they're not in QB hell. They failed to build a team around Darnold that would have prevented them from getting a replacement. They're in prime position to try again.
RE: RE: Gettleman defined it when he said it but people chose to  
Jimmy Googs : 4/20/2021 12:09 pm : link
In comment 15226781 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
In comment 15226669 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


not listen.



Correct! And here’s what he said:




Quote:


“If you take a guy just to take a guy, especially at the quarterback position, and he fails, you set yourself back five years,” Gettleman said per Dan Duggan of NJ.com. “You set yourself back five years because there are teams that are in what I call quarterback hell. They’ve got quality defense, they’ve got a good special teams, and they’re going 7-9, 8-8, 9-7. And now if there is a legitimate guy, they’ve got to trade up and give away the farm to get the guy.”



For what it’s worth...


For what its worth, the Giants haven't even smelled a .500 record very often lately.

They have been in GM Hell...
RE: RE: QB hell is a mediocre QB who wins 7-9 games a year  
Britt in VA : 4/20/2021 12:11 pm : link
In comment 15226860 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 15226710 WillieYoung said:


Quote:


Pretty good team except at QB. Never a high enough draft pick to get a QB. The hell may not be as hot as it used to be because there are 3-5 guys coming out every year who may be franchise QBs, so it's now more possible to get one with a mid-round pick.



I think it's harder to find a QB now. Isn't Mahomes the only QB drafted since 2009 to win a SB?


No, Foles and Wilson have also won one post 2009.
RE: RE: RE: QB hell is a mediocre QB who wins 7-9 games a year  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/20/2021 12:13 pm : link
In comment 15226866 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15226860 giants#1 said:


Quote:


In comment 15226710 WillieYoung said:


Quote:


Pretty good team except at QB. Never a high enough draft pick to get a QB. The hell may not be as hot as it used to be because there are 3-5 guys coming out every year who may be franchise QBs, so it's now more possible to get one with a mid-round pick.



I think it's harder to find a QB now. Isn't Mahomes the only QB drafted since 2009 to win a SB?



No, Foles and Wilson have also won one post 2009.

We're also seeing a transition from one of the NFL's greatest generations of QBs to a group that is still TBD. But I don't think it's crazy that so few young QBs have won a SB when you consider the group they're replacing.

And f*cking Tom Brady won't just retire already.
RE: RE: RE: RE: QB hell is a mediocre QB who wins 7-9 games a year  
Britt in VA : 4/20/2021 12:14 pm : link
In comment 15226871 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 15226866 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 15226860 giants#1 said:


Quote:


In comment 15226710 WillieYoung said:


Quote:


Pretty good team except at QB. Never a high enough draft pick to get a QB. The hell may not be as hot as it used to be because there are 3-5 guys coming out every year who may be franchise QBs, so it's now more possible to get one with a mid-round pick.



I think it's harder to find a QB now. Isn't Mahomes the only QB drafted since 2009 to win a SB?



No, Foles and Wilson have also won one post 2009.


We're also seeing a transition from one of the NFL's greatest generations of QBs to a group that is still TBD. But I don't think it's crazy that so few young QBs have won a SB when you consider the group they're replacing.

And f*cking Tom Brady won't just retire already.


Yes, this is exactly the point I was trying to make earlier.
RE: It's easy to look at the last 20 years and say you HAVE to have a  
giants#1 : 4/20/2021 12:21 pm : link
In comment 15226750 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
franchise QB, when the majority of Superbowls in that 20 years are accounted for by about 4-5 guys.

Brady: 7
Manning: 2
Roethlisberger: 2
Manning: 2
Rodgers: 1
Brees: 1

15/20 Superbowls won by the same 6 guys. It distorts the view.

Here's the thing, all the guys on that list are retired or on their way out.

That is an era of QB that is dead. There is no guarantee that the next 20 years will repeat that mold. I'd argue THOSE guys above are the anomaly. You think the Superbowls over the next 20 years are going to be won by the same 5-6 guys? I can give you Mahomes I guess. Who else?


I doubt that era is over. It's always been that way.

QBs with multiple starts (rings):
Brady - 10 (7)**
Elway - 5 (2)*
Bradshaw - 4 (4)*
Montana - 4 (4)*
Staubach - 4 (2)*
Peyton - 4 (2)*
Kelly - 4 (0)*
Aikman - 3 (3)*
Griese - 3 (2)*
Big Ben - 3 (2)**
Warner - 3 (1)*
Tarkenton - 3 (0)*
Starr - 2 (2)*
Plunkett - 2 (2)
Eli - 2 (2)**
Dawson - 2 (1)*
Theismann - 2 (1)
Favre - 2 (1)*
Wilson - 2 (1)***
Mahomes - 2 (1)***
Morton - 2 (0)

*HOF
**Likely HOF
***Too early

So 55 Superbowls, with 110 starting QBs. 62 starts by the HOF (or likely HOF) QBs above. Add in Brees/Rodgers and you've got at least 58% of the starts in a SB by a future HOFer.

Wins are even more dominated by the above. 41 wins (74%) of the SBs have been won by future HOF QBs (includes Brees/Rodgers + the above starred). And the trend holds over the last decade too. Only 2 wins by guys that won't come close to the HOF (Flacco/Foles). The 10 years before that, only Brad Johnson won't make the HOF.
RE: RE: Rodgers and Brees....  
bw in dc : 4/20/2021 12:23 pm : link
In comment 15226854 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:

Imv, the requirement to be a Franchise QB isn't how many Super Bowls did they win, but moreso do they give their team a credible opportunity to reach them each season.

Rodgers and Brees most certainly do/did...


This is spot on for me. You can't win unless you are in the playoffs. So give me the guy who gets you there year after year after year. Once you are there, anything can happen (e.g. Eli's two improbable runs).

Trying to plan and time for the well-crafted team/situation is just absurd. The economic model is too fluid to get there.

And I don't buy this theme - and it's quite commonplace at BBI - that football is the ultimate team game and the QB is just another piece.

Sorry, but the QB is not another piece. The rules are designed to have the QB impact the outcome of the game more than anytime in the history of the league. Until you have one who can optimize those rules, and not just be "another piece", this is a significant problem...
RE: RE: RE: QB hell is a mediocre QB who wins 7-9 games a year  
giants#1 : 4/20/2021 12:27 pm : link
In comment 15226866 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 15226860 giants#1 said:


Quote:


In comment 15226710 WillieYoung said:


Quote:


Pretty good team except at QB. Never a high enough draft pick to get a QB. The hell may not be as hot as it used to be because there are 3-5 guys coming out every year who may be franchise QBs, so it's now more possible to get one with a mid-round pick.



I think it's harder to find a QB now. Isn't Mahomes the only QB drafted since 2009 to win a SB?



No, Foles and Wilson have also won one post 2009.


Thanks, missed those 2 somehow. Still shows how its harder to find top QBs now (not that Foles is/was a top QB) as both those guys were 3 round picks. Outside of Mahomes, you have to go back to Flacco to find a 1st round QB that's won a SB!
RE: RE: RE: RE: QB hell is a mediocre QB who wins 7-9 games a year  
Britt in VA : 4/20/2021 12:34 pm : link
In comment 15226906 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 15226866 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 15226860 giants#1 said:


Quote:


In comment 15226710 WillieYoung said:


Quote:


Pretty good team except at QB. Never a high enough draft pick to get a QB. The hell may not be as hot as it used to be because there are 3-5 guys coming out every year who may be franchise QBs, so it's now more possible to get one with a mid-round pick.



I think it's harder to find a QB now. Isn't Mahomes the only QB drafted since 2009 to win a SB?



No, Foles and Wilson have also won one post 2009.



Thanks, missed those 2 somehow. Still shows how its harder to find top QBs now (not that Foles is/was a top QB) as both those guys were 3 round picks. Outside of Mahomes, you have to go back to Flacco to find a 1st round QB that's won a SB!


To your point, you can go back and there is a high bust rate of 1st round QB's over the past 10 years. It's very hard to find a QB, no matter where you pick, and in some cases, it's not the first, second, or even third QB that's picked in the 1st round that is the best one.
giants #1  
UConn4523 : 4/20/2021 12:47 pm : link
you expanded on my thoughts and I agree. We may not know who the next Brady/Manning/Brees/Rodgers will be (outside of Mahomes/Wilson) but they will surely be there.

The NFL is riddled with below average to average starting QB's and their odds of winning are slim to none. The top tier QB's odds are dramatically better. Having a JAG at QB just doesn't work unless the stars align.
RE: giants #1  
giants#1 : 4/20/2021 12:51 pm : link
In comment 15226953 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
you expanded on my thoughts and I agree. We may not know who the next Brady/Manning/Brees/Rodgers will be (outside of Mahomes/Wilson) but they will surely be there.

The NFL is riddled with below average to average starting QB's and their odds of winning are slim to none. The top tier QB's odds are dramatically better. Having a JAG at QB just doesn't work unless the stars align.


Yup and I think 2 recent case studies highlight this too:

KC - replaced the average Smith with Mahomes -> SB + SB runner up
MN - SB-caliber D + excellent skill players on offense, but couldn't get over the hump by adding the average Cousins, in large part due to him.
Rams will be interesting too  
giants#1 : 4/20/2021 12:52 pm : link
Goff definitely held them back, but will Stafford be enough of an upgrade to push them over the top?
You need 2 conditions to be met to be in QB hell  
allstarjim : 4/20/2021 1:06 pm : link
1. Have at most an average QB that can't lead your team over the hump. This player is unlikely to lead your team on a playoff run.

2. Have a lot of dollars/salary cap devoted to this QB beyond the current/upcoming season. The Falcons have $119M invested in Matt Ryan over the next three seasons. They can cut him after this season, but will have to suffer 2022 with $40.5M of dead cap money.

I'm not sure Matt Ryan fully fulfills criteria number 1, after all, he was in the Super Bowl just 4 years ago, but they've had a losing record in each of the last 3 seasons, and it seems unlikely they will be able to make another run with Ryan. If that's true, they're in QB Hell.

The Vikings have $76M in cap money tied to Kirk Cousins, they are in QB hell.

A team like Washington, for example, is not in QB hell, because although they have a mediocre QB unlikely to lead the team on a playoff run, they have no money tied up in him after this season, and even in terms of this year the money isn't significant. Therefore there is nothing prohibitive about using a top pick or otherwise adding a QB (like in a trade) to their team.
Jets not in QB hell, Giants may be close though...  
trueblueinpw : 4/20/2021 1:17 pm : link
If anything, the Jets did a good job avoiding QB hell by trading Darnold at just the right time to get another bite at the proverbial apple with the overall 2nd. Like everything else, we’ll have to wait and see how Wilson works out and how Darnold works out. But the Jets aren’t in QB hell according to Getty’s definition.

And ironically, Getty himself may be heading toward QB hell with Jones. To be clear, I think Jones should be getting another year to show that he can play. But to be equally clear, he seems like a QB exactly like what Getty was trying to avoid. With a good defense and some key position players the Giants should be competitive with Jones and around .500. But, that QB that who wins games and leads your team to the playoffs year in and year out? Is that Jones? I’m not convinced it is. And if it’s not, and Getty signs him to an extension, then we’ll be in QB hell.
Saying "QB Hell" just means you don't have a proven  
Mike from Ohio : 4/20/2021 1:19 pm : link
franchise QB is lazy. Jacksonville and the Jets don't have a proven franchise QB but pick #1 and #2 in the draft where they will get a QB that can become that, and on a rookie contract. That is absolutely not QB hell.

QB hell is when you likely don't have the answer on your roster, but you lack the draft position and/or cap room to improve the situation. That can be a team like the Bears that win enough games to not be able to draft the next guy, or a team that paid a declining vet and whose contract they can't get out from under.

When you bring in Nick Foles to challenge your highly drafted starter, you are in QB hell. When you are the Eagles and have significant cap resources tied up in a guy who plays for someone else, you are in QB hell.

The Giants are not in QB hell. Even if Jones flops this year they are likely not in QB hell because they will almost certainly have the resources to replace him.
This phrase needs to be retired asap...  
The Mike : 4/20/2021 1:41 pm : link
The only thing that matters is that the Giants are in football hell. A decade of terrible teams - including the lucky 2016 season when we threw a lot of money at the problem, had the easiest schedule we have possibly ever had, won eleven games with a putrid +26 point differential and got blown off the field in a playoff game.

The question is, and continues to be, what are the solutions and who are the players capable of getting us out of football hell? Is Daniel Jones capable of putting this team on his shoulders and leading us out of the fire ala Russell Wilson? No. Is he capable of managing the position within a successful structure both elevating the players around him as well as making minimal mistakes ala Alex Smith? Possible, but until proven otherwise, unclear.

But here's the right question - can we win games with a subpar quarterback? YES! We don't need to solve the quarterback problem to get out of football hell! Hostetler proved we don't need a franchise quarterback to win a super bowl. Colt McCoy proved we can win games against good teams with a backup quarterback.

Jones is not going away I would guess until after the 2022 season. So the fastest way out of football hell for the Giants is to do what they did in 1981 when they began their ascension out of football hell to win a playoff game - become a top defense in the league. The offense, even with a subpar quarterback, can be good enough to win as it did with Scott Brunner in 1981.

If the Giants want to get out of football hell, they need to feed their strength in this draft and turn a good defense into a great defense.
The Jets post-Namath  
David B. : 4/20/2021 1:45 pm : link
The Dolphins post-Marino.
The Broncos post-Elway
The Cleveland Browns post-Kosar (or Otto Graham)

Makes the horrid Dave Brown, Kent Graham, Danny Kanell years seem mild.
.  
Go Terps : 4/20/2021 1:55 pm : link
To me the more relevant question is "Which teams can afford to pass on the opportunity to draft a talented QB prospect?" Off the top of my head I'd say:

Dallas
Green Bay
Tampa Bay
Seattle
Arizona
Buffalo
Baltimore
Cincinnati (maybe, depending on Burrow's injury)
Houston (maybe, depending on Watson's status)
Kansas City
LA Chargers

To me, that's the list. Everyone else should be open to replacing what they have with a talented rookie.
I find it way overused as is the  
Lines of Scrimmage : 4/20/2021 1:59 pm : link
"franchise" QB term.

I think when you have good overall team that is balanced and the QB is holding you back then you are in hell.

What I find happens often is the team is not as good as the front office, GM and HC think and they often put it on the QB. To me the game is always been about "team."
QB Hell = High Salary Cap Charge + Mediocre to Subpar Performance  
kdog77 : 4/20/2021 1:59 pm : link
Carson Wentz is the poster child for QB Hell b/c he was overpaid for his performance.

1. If your team's QB is paid $30-$40M per year and is top 10 passer, then you are not in QB Hell. You are getting what you paid for in these QBs. Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Patrick Mahomes and DeShaun Watson are in this category. If he recovers, then so is Dak.

2. If your team's QB is on rookie salary deal and is below top 15 passer, then you are not in QB Hell. The team might be bad but can still add talent at key positions and move on from the QB at little to now cost. Sam Darnold and Mitch Trubisky are the perfect example of this concept.

3. If your team's QB is paid +25M per year and is below top 10 passer, then you might be in QB hell b/c it limits your ability to win games and add talent to your team. Good examples are Jimmy G, Kirk Cousins and Derek Carr. These guys may be good enough to get their teams to the playoffs but they are not super stars.

4. If your team's QB is paid less than $25M per year but can't stay healthy for all 16 games and the team has to resort to a platoon of mediocre back-up QBs cycling into the lineup every week. The Panthers and WFT seem to have this process down pat as they tend to invest in recycled QBs at higher rate then other teams.

5. Your underpaid, over-drafted QB sucks and everyone knows it. This is the Denver Broncos since Payton retired.

The Giants are in category 2 right now although some may argue we are in category 5. The hope is the Giants can get a Category 1 QB, but they could easily slip into Category 3 if Jones does not improve in 2021 and Gettleman signs him to an extension anyway. Or we really are in Category 5 and the team will end up being a disaster worse than Season 8 of GOT.
I define QB Hell  
pjcas18 : 4/20/2021 2:02 pm : link
like the Supreme Court defines obscenity "...I know it when I see it"

One example (that has possibly ended)

QB hell is you have a good team but bad QB  
GiantsFan84 : 4/20/2021 2:08 pm : link
and your team is good enough to be 7-9 or 9-7 every year but not good enough to get beyond that.

by finishing here you rarely are ever picking high enough to draft a stud QB prospect. then if you ever have a bad year teams feel forced to take the QB in that draft because they don't know when they will be picking that high again

and then the cycle repeats
RE: Rams will be interesting too  
UConn4523 : 4/20/2021 2:11 pm : link
In comment 15226961 giants#1 said:
Quote:
Goff definitely held them back, but will Stafford be enough of an upgrade to push them over the top?


I've always wondered if McVay endorsed (internally) the Goff extension. He may not have had enough clout at that time but there's no question it was a bad move when it happened and has been every day since.
RE: I define QB Hell  
Eric on Li : 4/20/2021 2:15 pm : link
In comment 15227074 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
like the Supreme Court defines obscenity "...I know it when I see it"

One example (that has possibly ended)



Cleveland was in organizational hell. They could have gotten Andrew Luck and it probably wouldn't have mattered. Jets are similar. Cincy too, though maybe Burrow is good enough to get them out.
RE: .  
Producer : 4/20/2021 2:20 pm : link
In comment 15227059 Go Terps said:
Quote:
To me the more relevant question is "Which teams can afford to pass on the opportunity to draft a talented QB prospect?" Off the top of my head I'd say:

Dallas
Green Bay
Tampa Bay
Seattle
Arizona
Buffalo
Baltimore
Cincinnati (maybe, depending on Burrow's injury)
Houston (maybe, depending on Watson's status)
Kansas City
LA Chargers

To me, that's the list. Everyone else should be open to replacing what they have with a talented rookie.


Yes. I say it another way. Either you have a star QB, or you have a QB problem.
I think if you have 2 or more QBs  
NoPeanutz : 4/20/2021 2:28 pm : link
in a row for 2 consecutive seasons or more who "suck," that is guys who never pan out over 2 consecutive seasons, you are in QB Hell. Denver. Jets. Washington. Chicago.
RE: RE: I define QB Hell  
pjcas18 : 4/20/2021 2:35 pm : link
In comment 15227097 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 15227074 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


like the Supreme Court defines obscenity "...I know it when I see it"

One example (that has possibly ended)





Cleveland was in organizational hell. They could have gotten Andrew Luck and it probably wouldn't have mattered. Jets are similar. Cincy too, though maybe Burrow is good enough to get them out.


but it starts with the QB.

Look at CIN with prime Carson Palmer - they were competitive - went to the playoffs and were trending the right way until he blew out his knee (in the playoffs I think).

RE: RE: RE: I define QB Hell  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/20/2021 2:58 pm : link
In comment 15227123 pjcas18 said:
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In comment 15227097 Eric on Li said:


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In comment 15227074 pjcas18 said:


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like the Supreme Court defines obscenity "...I know it when I see it"

One example (that has possibly ended)





Cleveland was in organizational hell. They could have gotten Andrew Luck and it probably wouldn't have mattered. Jets are similar. Cincy too, though maybe Burrow is good enough to get them out.



but it starts with the QB.

Look at CIN with prime Carson Palmer - they were competitive - went to the playoffs and were trending the right way until he blew out his knee (in the playoffs I think).

Cincinnati was in the playoffs four consecutive years with Dalton, also (2011-2014). They were one-and-done each year, but they were there. It wasn't just Palmer who led that team - they were a pretty good roster overall.
RE: RE: RE: to me it's pretty simple, QB Hell  
chopperhatch : 4/20/2021 4:32 pm : link
In comment 15226709 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 15226701 chopperhatch said:


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In comment 15226661 ryanmkeane said:


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is not having a franchise QB



Thats absolutely not it.

QB hell is when you draft a player high, he plays ok for his first couple seasons, then lights it up numbers wise another season, but it isnt necessarily due to QB play rather the pieces around him. You hand him a monster contract and he turns out to be mediocre declining into becoming a shitty player.

The Rams and Eagles were almost perfect definitions of QB hell. The Rams more or less wriggled out of it but had to give away a bumch of draft capital in order to take on and older expensive but more accomplished QB. The Eagles are basically punting an entire offseason in order to get put from under the QB hell they were enduring.

I guess I would put the 9ers there too. The Jimmy experiment was grossly miscalculated. But they at least have good pieces on the team....were just ravaged by inkury last year.





Quote:




were just ravaged by inkury last year.





A Tat reference? Asking for a friend.


That was the lamest old fart joke ever. Haha.
QB Purgatory Guardian Angels...  
No Where Man : 4/20/2021 4:32 pm : link
Dave Brown
Danny Kanell
Kent Graham
Randy Dean
Jerry Golsteyn
Joe Pisarcik
Davis Webb
Mike Cherry
Ryan Nassib
Andre Woodson
Rhett Bomar
Craig Kupp
and the beat goes on.....

RE: Interesting...  
NINEster : 4/20/2021 4:48 pm : link
In comment 15226651 Dnew15 said:
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I would add teams that have a great roster, but can't get a QB to get them over the hump.

the 49ers are in QB hell
the COlts are in QB hell
the Bears are in QB hell
the Rams think they got out of QB hell

I think these teams have roster that can compete for a SUper Bowl - but won't win one b/c they are one position away...unfortunately it's the QB.


Won't is a strong word.

49ers should have won that game.

Nick Mullens might have been able to win this last SB, jesus christ.
RE: QB Hell = High Salary Cap Charge + Mediocre to Subpar Performance  
NINEster : 4/20/2021 5:04 pm : link
In comment 15227070 kdog77 said:
Quote:
Carson Wentz is the poster child for QB Hell b/c he was overpaid for his performance.

1. If your team's QB is paid $30-$40M per year and is top 10 passer, then you are not in QB Hell. You are getting what you paid for in these QBs. Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Patrick Mahomes and DeShaun Watson are in this category. If he recovers, then so is Dak.

2. If your team's QB is on rookie salary deal and is below top 15 passer, then you are not in QB Hell. The team might be bad but can still add talent at key positions and move on from the QB at little to now cost. Sam Darnold and Mitch Trubisky are the perfect example of this concept.

3. If your team's QB is paid +25M per year and is below top 10 passer, then you might be in QB hell b/c it limits your ability to win games and add talent to your team. Good examples are Jimmy G, Kirk Cousins and Derek Carr. These guys may be good enough to get their teams to the playoffs but they are not super stars.

4. If your team's QB is paid less than $25M per year but can't stay healthy for all 16 games and the team has to resort to a platoon of mediocre back-up QBs cycling into the lineup every week. The Panthers and WFT seem to have this process down pat as they tend to invest in recycled QBs at higher rate then other teams.

5. Your underpaid, over-drafted QB sucks and everyone knows it. This is the Denver Broncos since Payton retired.


Russell Wilson is a very good QB overall but a really overrated QB after New Year's Day. He's not January/February championship pedigree.

He's a form of QB hell himself, and it's only starting to come out now even though some of us could see the writing on the wall 5-6 years ago.

Huge cap hit, while his postseason play isn't remarkable whatsoever (never was really, just good enough in those SB years).

Seahawks can't build a meaningful roster anymore now that all those college players while Carroll was in USC are all in retirement homes. Can't draft, can't build wisely with FAs.

Wilson could theoretically play for $1 million a year and make them better, but it still won't be as scary as the old days.
RE: RE: RE: Gettleman defined it when he said it but people chose to  
chopperhatch : 4/20/2021 8:08 pm : link
In comment 15226786 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 15226781 trueblueinpw said:


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In comment 15226669 robbieballs2003 said:


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not listen.



Correct! And here’s what he said:




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“If you take a guy just to take a guy, especially at the quarterback position, and he fails, you set yourself back five years,” Gettleman said per Dan Duggan of NJ.com. “You set yourself back five years because there are teams that are in what I call quarterback hell. They’ve got quality defense, they’ve got a good special teams, and they’re going 7-9, 8-8, 9-7. And now if there is a legitimate guy, they’ve got to trade up and give away the farm to get the guy.”



For what it’s worth...


This is it.

QB Hell is building your team around a young QB who never gets there, and you're left with a team that is too good to put you in position to grab the next batch of franchise QB hopefuls, and not good enough to win a championship with the existing QB who didn't reach expectations.

It's just about risk management, IMO. Obviously, any GM is going to keep building around his QB, so that comes without fault. But what DG was getting at, IMO, is that if you get all the other things right but whiff on the QB, you might find yourself worse off than you were before you took the QB who busted. Because now you have a roster that is ready to win but is missing the core piece, and you have to mortgage the future to go get that QB, whatever price that may be.

That's the hell.


I disagree just a tad. If your scenario was the case, having a QB on a rookie deal gives you at least 5 years of evaluation of the player you drafted cost controlled so you arent crippled by his salary. If you have the feeling he isnt the guy after say year 3 (that really should be when the QB shows what kind of player he is) and you've built a team around him, it should make it easier to either draft a new one or sign a 2nd tier guy that can manage games for you at the very least. If you draft a new one, you have 2 cost controlled guys who compete for a spot.

For me, QB hell is when you give the wrong guy a 2nd contract. Then you have to do backflips to get right again as we saw with the Eagles and Rams.
RE: RE: ......  
chopperhatch : 4/20/2021 8:12 pm : link
In comment 15226809 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 15226788 CoughlinHandsonHips said:


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I feel the recent Vikings team define QB Hell.

Very talented roster outside of QB. This roster keeps them competitive - but lack of elite QB keeps them from pushing to the next level.

Their record keeps them out of the draft range to nab one of the projected franchise QBs at the top of the draft, forcing them to overspend in Free Agency on the likes of Kurt Cousins.



Bears too. They've had a really good defense with Mack/Hicks/secondary. Had Robinson and some decent enough skill players. But Trubisky/Foles are both highly flawed.


Trubisky, they invested too much into as far as draft capital, but they didnt give him that 2nd contract....which couldve happened after that solid year he had when they lost to the Eagles in the playoffs. Its the 2nd contracts that are brutal. Wentz, Goff are cautionary tales about buying into the hype too early.

If Jones plays incredibly this year and immediately gets a hige deal, THEN I will be pissed off at ownership. After year 4? Mmmmmmm, maybe. But fuck it let him play out his roomie deal. If he holds out, he holds out.
RE: RE: Interesting...  
chopperhatch : 4/20/2021 8:14 pm : link
In comment 15227310 NINEster said:
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In comment 15226651 Dnew15 said:


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I would add teams that have a great roster, but can't get a QB to get them over the hump.

the 49ers are in QB hell
the COlts are in QB hell
the Bears are in QB hell
the Rams think they got out of QB hell

I think these teams have roster that can compete for a SUper Bowl - but won't win one b/c they are one position away...unfortunately it's the QB.



Won't is a strong word.

49ers should have won that game.

Nick Mullens might have been able to win this last SB, jesus christ.


I think you're 8n8ndulging in some wishful thinking there. The Chiefs started making plays and the Niners offense went to sleep. You were lucky that game was as close as it was.
Andy Dalton is QB hell  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 4/20/2021 8:15 pm : link
Good enough to lead a strong team to the playoffs but not good enough to carry you to a SB. Good enough to likely be better than your QB for the next year or two which makes you heavily consider “timeline” rather than “potential ceiling/talent”.

Trubisky and the Bears entire QB history came to mind as well. But the Bears answered that question pretty easily this off-season...

with Dalton.
*better than your rookie QB  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 4/20/2021 8:18 pm : link
.
RE: .  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 4/20/2021 8:24 pm : link
In comment 15227059 Go Terps said:
Quote:
To me the more relevant question is "Which teams can afford to pass on the opportunity to draft a talented QB prospect?" Off the top of my head I'd say:

Dallas
Green Bay
Tampa Bay
Seattle
Arizona
Buffalo
Baltimore
Cincinnati (maybe, depending on Burrow's injury)
Houston (maybe, depending on Watson's status)
Kansas City
LA Chargers

To me, that's the list. Everyone else should be open to replacing what they have with a talented rookie.


I get he's the GOAT, but TB is 44 this August. Sooner or later, Father Time is going to rear it's ugly head. I don't get why they're on your list. Dallas? I know they gave Dak a big deal, but I don't think he's an elite QB. Green Bay? Again, Rodgers is what...37? He's getting up there. And they just drafted Love to potentially be the QB of the future so...again, confused as to why they're on your list? Seattle? Isn't Wilson looking to get out? Wouldn't it make sense for them to grab a top QB? Arizona...I'm not convinced Murray is a superstar. Buffalo, Baltimore, Cincy, Houston, KC (definitely), & Chargers I get.

But weird list.
RE: Andy Dalton is QB hell  
chopperhatch : 4/20/2021 8:49 pm : link
In comment 15227497 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
Good enough to lead a strong team to the playoffs but not good enough to carry you to a SB. Good enough to likely be better than your QB for the next year or two which makes you heavily consider “timeline” rather than “potential ceiling/talent”.

Trubisky and the Bears entire QB history came to mind as well. But the Bears answered that question pretty easily this off-season...

with Dalton.


Andy Dalton signed for 1 year 10 million. How does that affect their cap negatively. He is likely a placeholder for when they draft whomever is left. That is too is NOT QB hell.


"QB hell" is when you have so much invested in a player and he becomes less and less significant to the team, but you have to keep paying him. Paying a vet like Fitzpatrick, Dalton or Mariota is NOT QB hell. When you are financially committed to the player and he isnt doing his job effectively is QB hell.

Just because a QB draft pick doesnt work out, is not QB hell given the new salary structuring of draft picks.
Kirk Cousins comes to mind when discussing QB hell.  
Zeke's Alibi : 4/20/2021 8:59 pm : link
The guy that is a top 10-12 QB when his second contract comes up and never makes that next step.

QB primes are usually 27-32. It's why WFT made the right move by franchising him twice because they weren't sure. So instead of making a long-term commitment, they gave him a year, and then another to prove it. Said we saw enough and let the Vikes make an offer to a guy most certainly not worth it. The Vikes have done very little, with a pretty good supporting cast, in his 3 years outside of the playoff win last year. Against a Drew Brees who had a noodle arm by the time December rolls around. A team that also looked completely discombobulated by the time the playoffs came around (see Michael Thomas situation).
Oh and the Eagles are definitely in QB hell.  
Zeke's Alibi : 4/20/2021 9:06 pm : link
Paying a guy a massive second contract, just to trade him, with your hopes pinned on a very limited QB. The next few years are going to be rough for them.

I think the term is often overused though. Is QB hell what the Jets did? I don't think so, I think they whiffed, and after 3 years to get a full eval moved on. Wilson is a baller, but imagine being in this situation without QBs like Wilson and Lawrence at top? Some of it's just dumb luck. Of course Wilson could suck, there are no gurantees.
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